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Using mobile phone as an internet radio
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jim stone
Oct 2, 2012, 5:21:26 PM10/2/12
to
Not being able to find a small internet radio to buy we liked, we got mobile
phone with which we link with wi-fi to a modem router, and use it as an
internet radio.
Keeping the phoned plugged into its charger all the time, we are using it to
play *all-day* background classical music through an amplifier and speakers.
Since the phone has no 'moving parts' unlike a computer, we are wondering if
this continuous playing all day of the phone is going to shorten its working
life ?
phone with which we link with wi-fi to a modem router, and use it as an
internet radio.
Keeping the phoned plugged into its charger all the time, we are using it to
play *all-day* background classical music through an amplifier and speakers.
Since the phone has no 'moving parts' unlike a computer, we are wondering if
this continuous playing all day of the phone is going to shorten its working
life ?
Tom Biasi
Oct 2, 2012, 5:31:58 PM10/2/12
to
William Sommerwerck
Oct 2, 2012, 5:43:39 PM10/2/12
to
"Tom Biasi" <tomb...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:506b5d4b$0$9802$607e...@cv.net...
Not so. There aren't any obvious failure mechanisms in solid-state devices
(other than dopant migration in high-power output transistors).
It's also true that most mechanical devices "like" moderate use. Letting
anything mechanical "sit" most of the time will probably cause it fail
sooner than if receives regular use.
It's now possible to build computers without moving parts (other than the
optical drives). My new computer has a solid-state "hard disk", and you
wouldn't believe how fast it boots up, or how fast programs start to run.
news:506b5d4b$0$9802$607e...@cv.net...
> On 10/2/2012 5:21 PM, jim stone wrote:
>> Not being able to find a small internet radio to buy we liked,
>> we got a mobile phone with which we link with WiFi to a modem
>> Not being able to find a small internet radio to buy we liked,
>> router, and use it as an internet radio.
>> Keeping the phoned plugged into its charger all the time, we are
>> using it to play *all-day* background classical music through an
>> amplifier and speakers.
>> Since the phone has no "moving parts" unlike a computer, we are
>> wondering if this continuous playing all day of the phone is going
>> to shorten its working life ?
> Using anything shortens its working life.
>> Keeping the phoned plugged into its charger all the time, we are
>> using it to play *all-day* background classical music through an
>> amplifier and speakers.
>> Since the phone has no "moving parts" unlike a computer, we are
>> wondering if this continuous playing all day of the phone is going
>> to shorten its working life ?
Not so. There aren't any obvious failure mechanisms in solid-state devices
(other than dopant migration in high-power output transistors).
It's also true that most mechanical devices "like" moderate use. Letting
anything mechanical "sit" most of the time will probably cause it fail
sooner than if receives regular use.
It's now possible to build computers without moving parts (other than the
optical drives). My new computer has a solid-state "hard disk", and you
wouldn't believe how fast it boots up, or how fast programs start to run.
Tom Biasi
Oct 2, 2012, 5:59:10 PM10/2/12
to
it has no working life. I don't wish to play semantics but if you use it
you are using up it's working life.
William Sommerwerck
Oct 2, 2012, 6:32:47 PM10/2/12
to
> There are many factors that cause something to fail. I you
> don't use it, it has no working life. I don't wish to play
> semantics but if you use it you are using up its working life.
> don't use it, it has no working life. I don't wish to play
Not so. With mechanical devices, regular moderate use provides a longer
useful lifetime than using the device only rarely.
David Woolley
Oct 2, 2012, 6:32:53 PM10/2/12
to
William Sommerwerck wrote:
> optical drives). My new computer has a solid-state "hard disk", and you
> wouldn't believe how fast it boots up, or how fast programs start to run.
These, if flash memory, do have a definite wear out mechanism, although
> optical drives). My new computer has a solid-state "hard disk", and you
> wouldn't believe how fast it boots up, or how fast programs start to run.
they do try to avoid writing to the same spot, even if the software
does, to mitigate this.
>
>
Tom Biasi
Oct 2, 2012, 6:57:07 PM10/2/12
to
Regards,
Tom
Graham.
Oct 2, 2012, 7:24:21 PM10/2/12
to
On Tue, 02 Oct 2012 18:57:07 -0400, Tom Biasi <tomb...@optonline.net>
wrote:
Not sure if my News server supports x-posts to the entire Usenet, but
I digress.
An incandescent light bulb is a good example, If it lasts 1000 hours
when run continuously, its life will be considerably shorter if run
(say) 4 hours a day and the time it is on added up.
Equipment with lots of thermionic devices like very early computers
were, as far as practical, never switched off because of the
likelihood of failure.
--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%
wrote:
I digress.
An incandescent light bulb is a good example, If it lasts 1000 hours
when run continuously, its life will be considerably shorter if run
(say) 4 hours a day and the time it is on added up.
Equipment with lots of thermionic devices like very early computers
were, as far as practical, never switched off because of the
likelihood of failure.
--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%
Phil Allison
Oct 2, 2012, 7:28:13 PM10/2/12
to
"Graham."
>
> An incandescent light bulb is a good example, If it lasts 1000 hours
> when run continuously, its life will be considerably shorter if run
> (say) 4 hours a day and the time it is on added up.
Some web forum ?
JoRob64
Oct 2, 2012, 7:46:40 PM10/2/12
to
"Phil Allison" <phi...@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:ad1bkk...@mid.individual.net...
premature failure.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_shock
See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermionic_valves
"The common wisdom was that valves—which, like light bulbs, contained a hot
glowing filament—could never be used satisfactorily in large numbers, for
they were unreliable, and in a large installation too many would fail in too
short a time".[13] Tommy Flowers, who later designed Colossus, "discovered
that, so long as valves were switched on and left on, they could operate
reliably for very long periods, especially if their 'heaters' were run on a
reduced current".
William Sommerwerck
Oct 2, 2012, 7:49:34 PM10/2/12
to
"David Woolley" <da...@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid> wrote in message
news:k4fq2r$ics$1...@dont-email.me...
sure the disk is written to evenly. The Crucial disk I use is spec'd at
about 40TB of total writes.
news:k4fq2r$ics$1...@dont-email.me...
> William Sommerwerck wrote:
>> My new computer has a solid-state "hard disk", and you
>> wouldn't believe how fast it boots up, or how fast programs
>> start to run.
> These, if flash memory, do have a definite wear out mechanism,
> although they do try to avoid writing to the same spot, even if the
> software does, to mitigate this.
Correct. SSDs are an exception. They contain "leveling" software that makes
>> My new computer has a solid-state "hard disk", and you
>> wouldn't believe how fast it boots up, or how fast programs
>> start to run.
> These, if flash memory, do have a definite wear out mechanism,
> although they do try to avoid writing to the same spot, even if the
> software does, to mitigate this.
sure the disk is written to evenly. The Crucial disk I use is spec'd at
about 40TB of total writes.
Phil Allison
Oct 2, 2012, 8:25:11 PM10/2/12
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"JoRob64"
> "Phil Allison"
>> "Graham."
>>
>>>
>>> An incandescent light bulb is a good example, If it lasts 1000 hours
>>> when run continuously, its life will be considerably shorter if run
>>> (say) 4 hours a day and the time it is on added up.
>>
>>
>> ** Where ever did you get that nonsense from ??
>>
>> Some web forum ?
>
> I believe turning the bulbs on and off can induce thermal shock which
> causes premature failure.
** Bollocks it does.
>>
>>>
>>> An incandescent light bulb is a good example, If it lasts 1000 hours
>>> when run continuously, its life will be considerably shorter if run
>>> (say) 4 hours a day and the time it is on added up.
>>
>>
>> ** Where ever did you get that nonsense from ??
>>
>> Some web forum ?
>
> I believe turning the bulbs on and off can induce thermal shock which
> causes premature failure.
There are many applications where incandescent lamps are turned on and off
constantly and their life span is the same.
The OP's hypothetical example ( don't ya just LOVE them) is typical of
domestic lamp use.
Fuckwit.
.... Phil
Buffalo
Oct 2, 2012, 9:11:21 PM10/2/12
to
be shortend greatly.
Buffalo
Big Steel
Oct 2, 2012, 9:15:59 PM10/2/12
to
undercover racist idiot. Go to the Republican side, because you are not
fit to be a Democrat.
After Obama wins, Zimmerman will be dealt with next.
hr(bob) hofmann@att.net
Oct 2, 2012, 10:14:45 PM10/2/12
to
time is equal to several hours of continuous running. If you cycle a
bulb on and off every few seconds, the total on time before the bulb
fails will be only a few hundered hours for a 1000 hour rated bulb,
Jeff Liebermann
Oct 2, 2012, 11:23:46 PM10/2/12
to
On Wed, 3 Oct 2012 09:28:13 +1000, "Phil Allison" <phi...@tpg.com.au>
wrote:
It's not nonsense. The inrush current of a cold filament can shorten
the filament life. That's why light bulbs usually blow up when you
turn them on, not while they're running. The induced magnetic field
also tends to "twang" the filament, which can break the filament if it
were somehow mechanically weakened.
While attending kollege in the 1960's, I worked for a short time as a
non-union projectionist at a movie theater. Besides babysitting the
projectors, I had to deal with the flashing light bulb marquee. I
vaguely recall that there were something like 2000 40 watt light
bulbs. Roughly once per week, my job was to replace the blown bulbs
from a rickety pre-OSHA 20ft wooden ladder, sometimes at night. I
didn't keep count, but every week, we would lose about 20 light bulbs.
Doing the math, that means after about 2 years, ALL the light bulbs
would have been replaced at least once. At 8 hrs run per day, that's
800 hrs lifetime which isn't all that great, especially since we were
running the bulbs at reduced voltage to improve the lifetime. We used
the same bulbs in the theater foyer and lobby, where they were NOT
cycled on and off like the flashing marquee. I rarely replaced those
bulbs and they seemed to last forever.
> Some web forum ?
If you repeat something often enough, it eventually becomes dogma.
--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
wrote:
the filament life. That's why light bulbs usually blow up when you
turn them on, not while they're running. The induced magnetic field
also tends to "twang" the filament, which can break the filament if it
were somehow mechanically weakened.
While attending kollege in the 1960's, I worked for a short time as a
non-union projectionist at a movie theater. Besides babysitting the
projectors, I had to deal with the flashing light bulb marquee. I
vaguely recall that there were something like 2000 40 watt light
bulbs. Roughly once per week, my job was to replace the blown bulbs
from a rickety pre-OSHA 20ft wooden ladder, sometimes at night. I
didn't keep count, but every week, we would lose about 20 light bulbs.
Doing the math, that means after about 2 years, ALL the light bulbs
would have been replaced at least once. At 8 hrs run per day, that's
800 hrs lifetime which isn't all that great, especially since we were
running the bulbs at reduced voltage to improve the lifetime. We used
the same bulbs in the theater foyer and lobby, where they were NOT
cycled on and off like the flashing marquee. I rarely replaced those
bulbs and they seemed to last forever.
> Some web forum ?
If you repeat something often enough, it eventually becomes dogma.
--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
MikeS
Oct 3, 2012, 2:01:25 AM10/3/12
to
live forever ...
Paul D Smith
Oct 3, 2012, 3:38:54 AM10/3/12
to
"jim stone" <tgh6h...@mail.invalid> wrote in message
news:k4flsm$pbt$1...@dont-email.me...
You'll have dropped it well before it wears out :-). BTW, a cheap PC
speaker set might be handy if you want a little more volume. And you can
probably find a decent streaming client if you have your music sitting on a
PC somewhere.
Paul DS.
news:k4flsm$pbt$1...@dont-email.me...
speaker set might be handy if you want a little more volume. And you can
probably find a decent streaming client if you have your music sitting on a
PC somewhere.
Paul DS.
John Robertson
Oct 3, 2012, 3:54:09 AM10/3/12
to
pinballs and jukeboxes (and other arcade games)- regular use keeps the
contacts on the relays clean from their designed in rubbing action
(overtravel). If the machine is not used then the contacts tend to
oxidize and not pass electrical current well leading to service calls.
HOWEVER the topic here is a solid state mobile phone - and that device
really doesn't care too much if it is on or off as long as it operates
in a reasonable temperature range (around 20 - 35C). Chances are it will
be obsolete before it fails if it runs cool to the touch.
Heat is the enemy of electronics, mostly capacitors - and their life
gets quite short the warmer the operating temperature gets above
50C...just read the spec sheets. Typical electrolytics endurance: - up
to 5,000 Hours at 105°C or about 210 days (7 months) running 24/7.
John :-#)#
--
(Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
John Robertson
Oct 3, 2012, 3:59:16 AM10/3/12
to
filaments to reduce most of the inrush current. Might have put you out
of that job though...
MB
Oct 3, 2012, 4:12:34 AM10/3/12
to
On 03/10/2012 01:25, Phil Allison wrote:
> There are many applications where incandescent lamps are turned on and off
> constantly and their life span is the same.
There were many installations using thermionic valves where very long
> There are many applications where incandescent lamps are turned on and off
> constantly and their life span is the same.
life was achieved by leaving them running continuously. The GPO had
discovered this and it influenced Bletchley Park with their early
computers, some did not believe they would get a reliable system but the
GPO engineers working there convinced them that it was possible.
There are frequent stories in the press of incandescent light bulbs that
have been running continuously for very long periods - tens of years.
Brian Gaff
Oct 3, 2012, 4:16:02 AM10/3/12
to
Just like not using it does in fact.
Brian
--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
Brian
--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
Dave Plowman (News)
Oct 3, 2012, 5:12:44 AM10/3/12
to
In article
<0ae7fdaf-9a45-4fd5...@q4g2000vbg.googlegroups.com>,
since this pretty well never happens.
Do you find the 'flasher' lamps on your car failing more quickly than
similar lamps which don't flash?
--
*A plateau is a high form of flattery*
Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
<0ae7fdaf-9a45-4fd5...@q4g2000vbg.googlegroups.com>,
hr(bob) hof...@att.net <hrho...@att.net> wrote:
> He is right, the stresses involved in the turn-on of the bulb each
> time is equal to several hours of continuous running. If you cycle a
> bulb on and off every few seconds, the total on time before the bulb
> fails will be only a few hundered hours for a 1000 hour rated bulb,
It would be a strange way to rate the life of a lamp - on constantly,
> He is right, the stresses involved in the turn-on of the bulb each
> time is equal to several hours of continuous running. If you cycle a
> bulb on and off every few seconds, the total on time before the bulb
> fails will be only a few hundered hours for a 1000 hour rated bulb,
since this pretty well never happens.
Do you find the 'flasher' lamps on your car failing more quickly than
similar lamps which don't flash?
--
*A plateau is a high form of flattery*
Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Jeff Liebermann
Oct 3, 2012, 5:48:10 AM10/3/12
to
On Wed, 03 Oct 2012 09:12:34 +0100, MB <M...@nospam.nospam> wrote:
>There are frequent stories in the press of incandescent light bulbs that
>have been running continuously for very long periods - tens of years.
110 years:
>There are frequent stories in the press of incandescent light bulbs that
>have been running continuously for very long periods - tens of years.
<http://www.centennialbulb.org>
Of course, the lifetime of light bulbs is part of an international
conspiracy to promote planned obsolescence:
<http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/light-bulb-conspiracy/>
tony sayer
Oct 3, 2012, 5:47:41 AM10/3/12
to
In article <k4fn6h$1op$1...@dont-email.me>, William Sommerwerck
<grizzle...@comcast.net> scribeth thus
believe in such cases its paralled emitter connections that start going
open circuit...
>
>It's also true that most mechanical devices "like" moderate use. Letting
>anything mechanical "sit" most of the time will probably cause it fail
>sooner than if receives regular use.
>
>It's now possible to build computers without moving parts (other than the
>optical drives). My new computer has a solid-state "hard disk", and you
>wouldn't believe how fast it boots up, or how fast programs start to run.
>
>
Indeed they do just got one, not in this machine but very fast indeed.
They still it seems fail though...
--
Tony Sayer
<grizzle...@comcast.net> scribeth thus
>"Tom Biasi" <tomb...@optonline.net> wrote in message
>news:506b5d4b$0$9802$607e...@cv.net...
>> On 10/2/2012 5:21 PM, jim stone wrote:
>
>>> Not being able to find a small internet radio to buy we liked,
>>> we got a mobile phone with which we link with WiFi to a modem
>>> router, and use it as an internet radio.
>
>>> Keeping the phoned plugged into its charger all the time, we are
>>> using it to play *all-day* background classical music through an
>>> amplifier and speakers.
>
>>> Since the phone has no "moving parts" unlike a computer, we are
>>> wondering if this continuous playing all day of the phone is going
>>> to shorten its working life ?
>
>> Using anything shortens its working life.
>
>Not so. There aren't any obvious failure mechanisms in solid-state devices
>(other than dopant migration in high-power output transistors).
Yes interesting that especially in high power RF transistors, 'tho I
>news:506b5d4b$0$9802$607e...@cv.net...
>> On 10/2/2012 5:21 PM, jim stone wrote:
>
>>> Not being able to find a small internet radio to buy we liked,
>>> we got a mobile phone with which we link with WiFi to a modem
>>> router, and use it as an internet radio.
>
>>> Keeping the phoned plugged into its charger all the time, we are
>>> using it to play *all-day* background classical music through an
>>> amplifier and speakers.
>
>>> Since the phone has no "moving parts" unlike a computer, we are
>>> wondering if this continuous playing all day of the phone is going
>>> to shorten its working life ?
>
>> Using anything shortens its working life.
>
>Not so. There aren't any obvious failure mechanisms in solid-state devices
>(other than dopant migration in high-power output transistors).
believe in such cases its paralled emitter connections that start going
open circuit...
>
>It's also true that most mechanical devices "like" moderate use. Letting
>anything mechanical "sit" most of the time will probably cause it fail
>sooner than if receives regular use.
>
>It's now possible to build computers without moving parts (other than the
>optical drives). My new computer has a solid-state "hard disk", and you
>wouldn't believe how fast it boots up, or how fast programs start to run.
>
>
They still it seems fail though...
--
Tony Sayer
Geoffrey S. Mendelson
Oct 3, 2012, 6:34:04 AM10/3/12
to
Tom Biasi wrote:
>> Not so. With mechanical devices, regular moderate use provides a longer
>> useful lifetime than using the device only rarely.
>>
>>
> I don't agree but will say no more.
Laser printers. I have given away for parts several laser printers because
>> Not so. With mechanical devices, regular moderate use provides a longer
>> useful lifetime than using the device only rarely.
>>
>>
> I don't agree but will say no more.
they sat unused 99% of the time, and started to jam when I printed the
one or two pages a month I needed them for.
Not only did the rubber wheels dry out and lose their ability to grab paper,
they flatten where they are pressed against something.
I have a perfectly good Samsung laser printer in that condition now.
My choices are to once a week clean out a jam, and clean the feed roller;
print something everyday (a waste of paper); spend $15 for a new roller
(including postage) and an hour to install it; or wait for a sale
(every 2-3 months) and buy a newer faster, higher resolution model with a
2,000 page toner cartridge included for less than the cost of a full load toner.
Geoff.
--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379
"Owning a smartphone: Technology's equivalent to learning to play
chopsticks on the piano as a child and thinking you're a musician."
(sent to me by a friend)
Rocky
Oct 3, 2012, 9:22:17 AM10/3/12
to
I use smartphones, tablets and laptops to listen to internet radio all the
time and I've only had one device that suffered because of that. What
happened to that particular device is the WiFi quit working and it doesn't
even work after a factory reset.
But out of all the other devices I've used they haven't demonstrated any
problems at all.
Rocky
William Sommerwerck
Oct 3, 2012, 9:31:08 AM10/3/12
to
>> Using anything shortens its working life.
> I can vouch for the remark made but I can give you more details too:
> I use smartphones, tablets and laptops to listen to internet radio all the
> time and I've only had one device that suffered because of that. What
> happened to that particular device is the WiFi quit working and it doesn't
> even work after a factory reset.
Who knows why the WiFi quit? The radio could have failed simply because the
chip went bad.
HP has had problems with the radios in some of its notebooks.
> I can vouch for the remark made but I can give you more details too:
> I use smartphones, tablets and laptops to listen to internet radio all the
> time and I've only had one device that suffered because of that. What
> happened to that particular device is the WiFi quit working and it doesn't
> even work after a factory reset.
chip went bad.
HP has had problems with the radios in some of its notebooks.
Rocky
Oct 3, 2012, 10:13:48 AM10/3/12
to
"William Sommerwerck" <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:k4hen1$ngj$1...@dont-email.me...
on their HP notebook but they claimed it was the switch itself that quit
working so I try not to use the hardware WiFi switch on an HP notebook.
Me, I've had a power plug fail on an HP ZD7000 notebook and that was common
for that particular notebook.
I've also had a DVD fail on an HP DV8000 notebook but when the second DVD
failed too I went back to the first DVD and it has been working fine since
then. I doubt if I'll ever figure that one out unless if it was a problem
with the connector.
Other than that, I've seen a lot of videos on youtube with problematic HPs
where if it isn't the WiFi that goes out it is the video. Case in point:
HP 's Worst Laptop Ever - Pavilion ZD8000 -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2stqQtQePcM&hd=1
Oddly enough I skipped getting the HP ZD8000 because I went from an HP
ZD7000 to the HP DV8000 where the ZD8000 looks more like the ZD7000 than the
DV8000.
FYI the only device I had that lost the WiFi was a Pharos Traveler 137 that
I got real cheap when a place was getting rid of them so I wasn't too upset
when the WiFi quit on that.
><http://www.pharosgps.com/products/proddetail.asp?prod=001_PTL137_8.00><
But the video on certain Dell Laptops? Don't get me started.
Rocky
Phil Hobbs
Oct 3, 2012, 10:32:57 AM10/3/12
to
On 10/03/2012 05:12 AM, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article
> <0ae7fdaf-9a45-4fd5...@q4g2000vbg.googlegroups.com>,
> hr(bob) hof...@att.net<hrho...@att.net> wrote:
>
>> He is right, the stresses involved in the turn-on of the bulb each
>> time is equal to several hours of continuous running. If you cycle a
>> bulb on and off every few seconds, the total on time before the bulb
>> fails will be only a few hundered hours for a 1000 hour rated bulb,
>
> It would be a strange way to rate the life of a lamp - on constantly,
> since this pretty well never happens.
>
> Do you find the 'flasher' lamps on your car failing more quickly than
> similar lamps which don't flash?
>
I don't know of any data that supports this common idea, but I'd be
> In article
> <0ae7fdaf-9a45-4fd5...@q4g2000vbg.googlegroups.com>,
> hr(bob) hof...@att.net<hrho...@att.net> wrote:
>
>> He is right, the stresses involved in the turn-on of the bulb each
>> time is equal to several hours of continuous running. If you cycle a
>> bulb on and off every few seconds, the total on time before the bulb
>> fails will be only a few hundered hours for a 1000 hour rated bulb,
>
> It would be a strange way to rate the life of a lamp - on constantly,
> since this pretty well never happens.
>
> Do you find the 'flasher' lamps on your car failing more quickly than
> similar lamps which don't flash?
>
interested in reading about it if anybody's actually done the experiment
carefully. Electromigration is a smaller effect in an AC bulb, since
the leading order effect cancels.
I suspect that the notion that cycling is hard on bulbs comes from the
way that the bulb often fails at turn-on, when the thinnest hot spot
vapourizes before the rest of the filament has a chance to come up to
temperature and reduce the inrush current.
The tungsten in the lamp is run within a few hundred kelvins of its
melting point, so it's always in the fully annealed state, which ought
to mean that there are no metal fatigue mechanisms operating, just
material migration due to sublimation.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net
Jeff Liebermann
Oct 3, 2012, 11:58:05 AM10/3/12
to
On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 19:14:45 -0700 (PDT), "hr(bob) hof...@att.net"
<hrho...@att.net> wrote:
>If you cycle a
>bulb on and off every few seconds, the total on time before the bulb
>fails will be only a few hundered hours for a 1000 hour rated bulb,
Every wonder where the 1000 hrs came from?
<hrho...@att.net> wrote:
>If you cycle a
>bulb on and off every few seconds, the total on time before the bulb
>fails will be only a few hundered hours for a 1000 hour rated bulb,
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel>
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence>
If you stress a 1000 hr incandescent bulb, the lifetime will be even
less.
It also applies to CFL bulbs:
<http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/6122459/Lifespan-of-energy-saving-bulbs-reduced-by-repeated-switching.html>
The lifespan of energy-saving light bulbs can be reduced
by up to 85 per cent if they are switched off and on too often...
Grimly Curmudgeon
Oct 3, 2012, 12:10:41 PM10/3/12
to
On Tue, 02 Oct 2012 21:15:59 -0400, Big Steel
<TheBigrr...@TheBigrrrr6669yyyy.com> wrote:
>You shit for brains your ignorance is truly amazing. You are an
>undercover racist idiot. Go to the Republican side, because you are not
>fit to be a Democrat.
>
>After Obama wins, Zimmerman will be dealt with next.
Who opened the kennel doors and let the arseholes out?
<TheBigrr...@TheBigrrrr6669yyyy.com> wrote:
>You shit for brains your ignorance is truly amazing. You are an
>undercover racist idiot. Go to the Republican side, because you are not
>fit to be a Democrat.
>
>After Obama wins, Zimmerman will be dealt with next.
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
Oct 3, 2012, 12:59:18 PM10/3/12
to
On Wed, 3 Oct 2012 08:38:54 +0100, "Paul D Smith" <paul_d...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>"jim stone" <tgh6h...@mail.invalid> wrote in message
>news:k4flsm$pbt$1...@dont-email.me...
>> Not being able to find a small internet radio to buy we liked, we got
>> mobile phone with which we link with wi-fi to a modem router, and use it
>> as an internet radio.
>>
>> Keeping the phoned plugged into its charger all the time, we are using it
>> to play *all-day* background classical music through an amplifier and
>> speakers.
>>
>> Since the phone has no 'moving parts' unlike a computer, we are wondering
>> if this continuous playing all day of the phone is going to shorten its
>> working life ?
>
>You'll have dropped it well before it wears out :-).
You'll wear out the batteries before you drop it and you'll want the new
iThingy before the batteries die. Full employment for the phone company.
wrote:
>"jim stone" <tgh6h...@mail.invalid> wrote in message
>news:k4flsm$pbt$1...@dont-email.me...
>> Not being able to find a small internet radio to buy we liked, we got
>> mobile phone with which we link with wi-fi to a modem router, and use it
>> as an internet radio.
>>
>> Keeping the phoned plugged into its charger all the time, we are using it
>> to play *all-day* background classical music through an amplifier and
>> speakers.
>>
>> Since the phone has no 'moving parts' unlike a computer, we are wondering
>> if this continuous playing all day of the phone is going to shorten its
>> working life ?
>
>You'll have dropped it well before it wears out :-).
iThingy before the batteries die. Full employment for the phone company.
Tom Kupp
Oct 3, 2012, 1:10:18 PM10/3/12
to
On 10/2/2012 17:21, jim stone wrote:
> Not being able to find a small internet radio to buy we liked, we got mobile
> phone with which we link with wi-fi to a modem router, and use it as an
> internet radio.
>
> Keeping the phoned plugged into its charger all the time, we are using it to
> play *all-day* background classical music through an amplifier and speakers.
>
> Since the phone has no 'moving parts' unlike a computer, we are wondering if
> this continuous playing all day of the phone is going to shorten its working
> life ?
>
>
Does the mobile have a subscription plan; i.e. periodic payments?
> Not being able to find a small internet radio to buy we liked, we got mobile
> phone with which we link with wi-fi to a modem router, and use it as an
> internet radio.
>
> Keeping the phoned plugged into its charger all the time, we are using it to
> play *all-day* background classical music through an amplifier and speakers.
>
> Since the phone has no 'moving parts' unlike a computer, we are wondering if
> this continuous playing all day of the phone is going to shorten its working
> life ?
>
>
default
Oct 3, 2012, 1:42:28 PM10/3/12
to
On Wed, 3 Oct 2012 07:01:25 +0100, "MikeS" <mis...@gothere.ukX.com>
wrote:
Blanket absolute statements are often wrong...
You have to match the logic to the device. Light bulbs? Off makes
them last longest. A car engine? You better exercise that sucker
once in awhile if it sits outside fully fueled. Many electronic
devices can tolerate 24/7 with few failures. Disk drives? Now that's
a question. The early ones (sealed ones - not the very early ones
where the platters were removable 12" disks) seemed to do better if
they ran 'til they croaked. The early drum recorders seemed to last
forever as long as they didn't stop running. (the heads rode on a
wave of silicon oil and never touched the belts unless they stopped)
wrote:
You have to match the logic to the device. Light bulbs? Off makes
them last longest. A car engine? You better exercise that sucker
once in awhile if it sits outside fully fueled. Many electronic
devices can tolerate 24/7 with few failures. Disk drives? Now that's
a question. The early ones (sealed ones - not the very early ones
where the platters were removable 12" disks) seemed to do better if
they ran 'til they croaked. The early drum recorders seemed to last
forever as long as they didn't stop running. (the heads rode on a
wave of silicon oil and never touched the belts unless they stopped)
Les Cargill
Oct 3, 2012, 1:56:06 PM10/3/12
to
software/configuration problem and a hardware failure. Any time
I have something fail, I do the "Remove Device"/"Add Device"
dance, then update drivers.
If that fails, out comes the Knoppix disk. If it *still* fails,
it's most likely hardware. I've been lucky so far and nothing
has needed a lot of scrounging for Linux device drivers.
--
Les Cargill
amdx
Oct 3, 2012, 3:48:40 PM10/3/12
to
R. Mark Clayton
Oct 3, 2012, 4:52:53 PM10/3/12
to
"jim stone" <tgh6h...@mail.invalid> wrote in message
news:k4flsm$pbt$1...@dont-email.me...
> Not being able to find a small internet radio to buy we liked, we got
> mobile phone with which we link with wi-fi to a modem router, and use it
> as an internet radio.
>
> Keeping the phoned plugged into its charger all the time, we are using it
> to play *all-day* background classical music through an amplifier and
> speakers.
>
> Since the phone has no 'moving parts' unlike a computer, we are wondering
> if this continuous playing all day of the phone is going to shorten its
> working life ?
>
The bits that will fail [first] in a mobile phone are the battery and
> mobile phone with which we link with wi-fi to a modem router, and use it
> as an internet radio.
>
> Keeping the phoned plugged into its charger all the time, we are using it
> to play *all-day* background classical music through an amplifier and
> speakers.
>
> Since the phone has no 'moving parts' unlike a computer, we are wondering
> if this continuous playing all day of the phone is going to shorten its
> working life ?
>
display. You can replace the battery and switch off the display.
I have two 40+ year old solid state radios that still work.
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
Oct 3, 2012, 7:28:57 PM10/3/12
to
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
Oct 3, 2012, 7:42:21 PM10/3/12
to
>I have two 40+ year old solid state radios that still work.
Jeff Liebermann
Oct 3, 2012, 9:41:04 PM10/3/12
to
On Wed, 03 Oct 2012 10:32:57 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>I don't know of any data that supports this common idea, but I'd be
>interested in reading about it if anybody's actually done the experiment
>carefully.
It's an accelerated life test. The deration curve of the incandescent
<pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>I don't know of any data that supports this common idea, but I'd be
>interested in reading about it if anybody's actually done the experiment
>carefully.
light bulb is well known and assumed to be
(Vapplied/Vdesign)^-12 to ^-16 * Life at design voltage
<http://www.welchallyn.com/documents/Lighting/OEM_Halogen_Lighting/MC3544HPX_Catalog_2_11_09.pdf>
See Fig 5 on Pg 5 for the graph. Nobody wants to wait 1000 hours for
a bulb to blow. So, they increase the applied voltage, which
dramatically decreases the lifetime down to reasonable test times.
Using a rack of bulbs, they obtain an average (or median) lifetime at
the higher voltage. Then, they work backwards on the curve to
estimate what it would be at the design voltage.
When I was specifying lamps for a direction finder for the USCG, I had
to deal with minimum lifetime specs. I asked the vendor (Dialight)
how they tested their T-1 3/4 bulbs and was told that they did an
accelerated lifetime test on a few bulbs from each lot to insure
adequate lifetime along with the usual sampled 1.5% AQL failure test.
>Electromigration is a smaller effect in an AC bulb, since
>the leading order effect cancels.
middle, mostly from vibration flexing.
>I suspect that the notion that cycling is hard on bulbs comes from the
>way that the bulb often fails at turn-on, when the thinnest hot spot
>vapourizes before the rest of the filament has a chance to come up to
>temperature and reduce the inrush current.
40watt theater marquee lamps due to cycling. The same lamps in the
lobby and foyer were not cycled and seemed to last forever.
>The tungsten in the lamp is run within a few hundred kelvins of its
>melting point, so it's always in the fully annealed state, which ought
>to mean that there are no metal fatigue mechanisms operating, just
>material migration due to sublimation.
tungsten plating evaporates, the light becomes dimmer. Below some
brightness level, it is considered to have failed. However, most such
tungsten coated filaments fail due to corrosion of the base steel
alloy wire which is exposed to the internal gases inside the bulb
after the tungsten evaporates. The gases (mostly nitrogen and some
argon) are inert, but there's a little water vapor outgassing from
heating the glass envelope, which eventually corrodes the filament.
Other failure modes are hot spots and notches caused by manufacturing
variations and tungsten evaporation.
Jasen Betts
Oct 4, 2012, 3:21:57 AM10/4/12
to
On 2012-10-02, jim stone <tgh6h...@mail.invalid> wrote:
> Not being able to find a small internet radio to buy we liked, we got mobile
> phone with which we link with wi-fi to a modem router, and use it as an
> internet radio.
>
> Keeping the phoned plugged into its charger all the time, we are using it to
> play *all-day* background classical music through an amplifier and speakers.
>
> Since the phone has no 'moving parts' unlike a computer, we are wondering if
> this continuous playing all day of the phone is going to shorten its working
> life ?
It may be bad for the battery
> Not being able to find a small internet radio to buy we liked, we got mobile
> phone with which we link with wi-fi to a modem router, and use it as an
> internet radio.
>
> Keeping the phoned plugged into its charger all the time, we are using it to
> play *all-day* background classical music through an amplifier and speakers.
>
> Since the phone has no 'moving parts' unlike a computer, we are wondering if
> this continuous playing all day of the phone is going to shorten its working
> life ?
--
⚂⚃ 100% natural
--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---
Jasen Betts
Oct 4, 2012, 3:48:25 AM10/4/12
to
On 2012-10-03, Geoffrey S. Mendelson <g...@mendelson.com> wrote:
>
> My choices are to once a week clean out a jam, and clean the feed roller;
> print something everyday (a waste of paper)
load the paper tray with scrap paper, use the bypass when you want to
>
> My choices are to once a week clean out a jam, and clean the feed roller;
> print something everyday (a waste of paper)
print something for real.
another option is to make a document with no ink and print that each day
at the end of the week collect the blank pages from the output tray
and put them back in the input tray.
chris
Oct 4, 2012, 9:18:58 AM10/4/12
to
On 03/10/2012 00:49, William Sommerwerck wrote:
> "David Woolley" <da...@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid> wrote in message
> news:k4fq2r$ics$1...@dont-email.me...
>> although they do try to avoid writing to the same spot, even if the
>> software does, to mitigate this.
>
> Correct. SSDs are an exception. They contain "leveling" software that makes
> sure the disk is written to evenly. The Crucial disk I use is spec'd at
> about 40TB of total writes.
For most usage scenarios the theoretical lifetimes of modern SSDs are
longer than HDDs.
> "David Woolley" <da...@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid> wrote in message
> news:k4fq2r$ics$1...@dont-email.me...
>> William Sommerwerck wrote:
>
>>> My new computer has a solid-state "hard disk", and you
>>> wouldn't believe how fast it boots up, or how fast programs
>>> start to run.
>
>> These, if flash memory, do have a definite wear out mechanism,
>
>>> My new computer has a solid-state "hard disk", and you
>>> wouldn't believe how fast it boots up, or how fast programs
>>> start to run.
>
>> although they do try to avoid writing to the same spot, even if the
>> software does, to mitigate this.
>
> Correct. SSDs are an exception. They contain "leveling" software that makes
> sure the disk is written to evenly. The Crucial disk I use is spec'd at
> about 40TB of total writes.
For most usage scenarios the theoretical lifetimes of modern SSDs are
longer than HDDs.
Phil Hobbs
Oct 4, 2012, 10:03:21 AM10/4/12
to
On 10/03/2012 09:41 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Wed, 03 Oct 2012 10:32:57 -0400, Phil Hobbs
> <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>
>> I don't know of any data that supports this common idea, but I'd be
>> interested in reading about it if anybody's actually done the experiment
>> carefully.
>
> It's an accelerated life test. The deration curve of the incandescent
> light bulb is well known and assumed to be
> (Vapplied/Vdesign)^-12 to ^-16 * Life at design voltage
> <http://www.welchallyn.com/documents/Lighting/OEM_Halogen_Lighting/MC3544HPX_Catalog_2_11_09.pdf>
> See Fig 5 on Pg 5 for the graph. Nobody wants to wait 1000 hours for
> a bulb to blow. So, they increase the applied voltage, which
> dramatically decreases the lifetime down to reasonable test times.
> Using a rack of bulbs, they obtain an average (or median) lifetime at
> the higher voltage. Then, they work backwards on the curve to
> estimate what it would be at the design voltage.
You can't run an accelerated life test when the exponent isn't known
> On Wed, 03 Oct 2012 10:32:57 -0400, Phil Hobbs
> <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>
>> I don't know of any data that supports this common idea, but I'd be
>> interested in reading about it if anybody's actually done the experiment
>> carefully.
>
> It's an accelerated life test. The deration curve of the incandescent
> light bulb is well known and assumed to be
> (Vapplied/Vdesign)^-12 to ^-16 * Life at design voltage
> <http://www.welchallyn.com/documents/Lighting/OEM_Halogen_Lighting/MC3544HPX_Catalog_2_11_09.pdf>
> See Fig 5 on Pg 5 for the graph. Nobody wants to wait 1000 hours for
> a bulb to blow. So, they increase the applied voltage, which
> dramatically decreases the lifetime down to reasonable test times.
> Using a rack of bulbs, they obtain an average (or median) lifetime at
> the higher voltage. Then, they work backwards on the curve to
> estimate what it would be at the design voltage.
more accurately than 12 to 16.
>
> When I was specifying lamps for a direction finder for the USCG, I had
> to deal with minimum lifetime specs. I asked the vendor (Dialight)
> how they tested their T-1 3/4 bulbs and was told that they did an
> accelerated lifetime test on a few bulbs from each lot to insure
> adequate lifetime along with the usual sampled 1.5% AQL failure test.
>
>> Electromigration is a smaller effect in an AC bulb, since
>> the leading order effect cancels.
>
> Yep. As I understand it (possible wrong), AC filaments break in the
> middle, mostly from vibration flexing.
wire is fully annealed at all times, so there's no possibility of
progressive fatigue failure.
>
>> I suspect that the notion that cycling is hard on bulbs comes from the
>> way that the bulb often fails at turn-on, when the thinnest hot spot
>> vapourizes before the rest of the filament has a chance to come up to
>> temperature and reduce the inrush current.
>
> Yep. See my comments on the relatively high failure rate on the
> 40watt theater marquee lamps due to cycling. The same lamps in the
> lobby and foyer were not cycled and seemed to last forever.
for the marquee lights failing prematurely. I'm not a tungsten expert
myself, so I'd be very interested in seeing actual data that shows a
dramatic shortening of life due to cycling. I'm not saying it's
impossible, just that I haven't seen any such data.
>
>> The tungsten in the lamp is run within a few hundred kelvins of its
>> melting point, so it's always in the fully annealed state, which ought
>> to mean that there are no metal fatigue mechanisms operating, just
>> material migration due to sublimation.
>
> Yep, but different failure mode. When the extremely thin layer of
> tungsten plating evaporates, the light becomes dimmer. Below some
> brightness level, it is considered to have failed. However, most such
> tungsten coated filaments fail due to corrosion of the base steel
> alloy wire which is exposed to the internal gases inside the bulb
> after the tungsten evaporates. The gases (mostly nitrogen and some
> argon) are inert, but there's a little water vapor outgassing from
> heating the glass envelope, which eventually corrodes the filament.
> Other failure modes are hot spots and notches caused by manufacturing
> variations and tungsten evaporation.
>
The brightness drop comes from tungsten condensing on the envelope.
And the connecting wire isn't plain steel, it's generally Dumet,
http://www.jlcelectromet.com/dumetwire.htm
which is a 42% Ni steel with OFHC copper or nickel plating.
You're making a lot of that up. I'd still like to see
carefully-collected data.
Jeff Liebermann
Oct 4, 2012, 12:43:41 PM10/4/12
to
On Thu, 04 Oct 2012 10:03:21 -0400, Phil Hobbs
light bulbs (nitrogen filled, halogen, vaccuum), and not the range
expected for a given device. I suspect that more accurate exponent
value could be empirically determined for a given device, and later
used only for that device.
>> Yep. As I understand it (possible wrong), AC filaments break in the
>> middle, mostly from vibration flexing.
>
>I don't think so, because there's no mechanism for that, as I said. The
>wire is fully annealed at all times, so there's no possibility of
>progressive fatigue failure.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescent_light_bulb#Reducing_filament_evaporation>
One of the problems of the standard electric light bulb is
evaporation of the filament. Small variations in resistivity
along the filament cause "hot spots" to form at points of
higher resistivity; a variation of diameter of only 1% will
cause a 25% reduction in service life. The hot spots evaporate
faster than the rest of the filament, increasing resistance
at that point a positive feedback that ends in the familiar
tiny gap in an otherwise healthy-looking filament.
Note the photo of the filament with a break in the middle. When I was
quite young, I would break burnt out AC light bulbs to see what was
inside. If the filament was intact, the break was always somewhere
near the middle. If a piece broke off, one end of the broken piece
was usually near the middle. In later years, I would look at the
remains of DC panel lights (usually type 47 for old Motorola radios)
and noted that the breaks were always near the supporting terminals,
probably due to metal migration.
>>> I suspect that the notion that cycling is hard on bulbs comes from the
>>> way that the bulb often fails at turn-on, when the thinnest hot spot
>>> vapourizes before the rest of the filament has a chance to come up to
>>> temperature and reduce the inrush current.
>>
>> Yep. See my comments on the relatively high failure rate on the
>> 40watt theater marquee lamps due to cycling. The same lamps in the
>> lobby and foyer were not cycled and seemed to last forever.
>
>I was actually disagreeing with you. There are lots of possible reasons
>for the marquee lights failing prematurely. I'm not a tungsten expert
>myself, so I'd be very interested in seeing actual data that shows a
>dramatic shortening of life due to cycling. I'm not saying it's
>impossible, just that I haven't seen any such data.
So much for my anecdotal data. My theater marquee experience was in
about 1966. The theater actually did keep records so that they could
stock enough replacement bulbs, but I don't have copies of any of
that.
I tried Googling for similar repetative on-off tests and didn't find
anything. If I have time, I'll try again. I must admit that the lack
of test data does look suspicious. Perhaps sending the idea to
Mythbusters and have them runs a test?
>The filament isn't tungsten-plated, it's pure tungsten or a low alloy.
>The brightness drop comes from tungsten condensing on the envelope.
Oops. I thought it was plated.
>And the connecting wire isn't plain steel, it's generally Dumet,
>http://www.jlcelectromet.com/dumetwire.htm
>
>which is a 42% Ni steel with OFHC copper or nickel plating.
>
>You're making a lot of that up. I'd still like to see
>carefully-collected data.
No, not fabricated. It's my reliance on my memory in an area that I'm
not familiar with. I tried Googling for the wire used, couldn't find
much, and made a bad guess. The plating came from somehow getting
thorium coated tungsten wire used in vacuum tubes mixed up with light
bulbs. Sorry for the errors and muddle.
>Cheers
>Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>On 10/03/2012 09:41 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Wed, 03 Oct 2012 10:32:57 -0400, Phil Hobbs
>> <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I don't know of any data that supports this common idea, but I'd be
>>> interested in reading about it if anybody's actually done the experiment
>>> carefully.
>>
>> It's an accelerated life test. The deration curve of the incandescent
>> light bulb is well known and assumed to be
>> (Vapplied/Vdesign)^-12 to ^-16 * Life at design voltage
>> <http://www.welchallyn.com/documents/Lighting/OEM_Halogen_Lighting/MC3544HPX_Catalog_2_11_09.pdf>
>> See Fig 5 on Pg 5 for the graph. Nobody wants to wait 1000 hours for
>> a bulb to blow. So, they increase the applied voltage, which
>> dramatically decreases the lifetime down to reasonable test times.
>> Using a rack of bulbs, they obtain an average (or median) lifetime at
>> the higher voltage. Then, they work backwards on the curve to
>> estimate what it would be at the design voltage.
>
>You can't run an accelerated life test when the exponent isn't known
>more accurately than 12 to 16.
True, but I believe that's the range expected from different types of
>On 10/03/2012 09:41 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Wed, 03 Oct 2012 10:32:57 -0400, Phil Hobbs
>> <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I don't know of any data that supports this common idea, but I'd be
>>> interested in reading about it if anybody's actually done the experiment
>>> carefully.
>>
>> It's an accelerated life test. The deration curve of the incandescent
>> light bulb is well known and assumed to be
>> (Vapplied/Vdesign)^-12 to ^-16 * Life at design voltage
>> <http://www.welchallyn.com/documents/Lighting/OEM_Halogen_Lighting/MC3544HPX_Catalog_2_11_09.pdf>
>> See Fig 5 on Pg 5 for the graph. Nobody wants to wait 1000 hours for
>> a bulb to blow. So, they increase the applied voltage, which
>> dramatically decreases the lifetime down to reasonable test times.
>> Using a rack of bulbs, they obtain an average (or median) lifetime at
>> the higher voltage. Then, they work backwards on the curve to
>> estimate what it would be at the design voltage.
>
>You can't run an accelerated life test when the exponent isn't known
>more accurately than 12 to 16.
light bulbs (nitrogen filled, halogen, vaccuum), and not the range
expected for a given device. I suspect that more accurate exponent
value could be empirically determined for a given device, and later
used only for that device.
>> Yep. As I understand it (possible wrong), AC filaments break in the
>> middle, mostly from vibration flexing.
>
>I don't think so, because there's no mechanism for that, as I said. The
>wire is fully annealed at all times, so there's no possibility of
>progressive fatigue failure.
One of the problems of the standard electric light bulb is
evaporation of the filament. Small variations in resistivity
along the filament cause "hot spots" to form at points of
higher resistivity; a variation of diameter of only 1% will
cause a 25% reduction in service life. The hot spots evaporate
faster than the rest of the filament, increasing resistance
at that point a positive feedback that ends in the familiar
tiny gap in an otherwise healthy-looking filament.
Note the photo of the filament with a break in the middle. When I was
quite young, I would break burnt out AC light bulbs to see what was
inside. If the filament was intact, the break was always somewhere
near the middle. If a piece broke off, one end of the broken piece
was usually near the middle. In later years, I would look at the
remains of DC panel lights (usually type 47 for old Motorola radios)
and noted that the breaks were always near the supporting terminals,
probably due to metal migration.
>>> I suspect that the notion that cycling is hard on bulbs comes from the
>>> way that the bulb often fails at turn-on, when the thinnest hot spot
>>> vapourizes before the rest of the filament has a chance to come up to
>>> temperature and reduce the inrush current.
>>
>> Yep. See my comments on the relatively high failure rate on the
>> 40watt theater marquee lamps due to cycling. The same lamps in the
>> lobby and foyer were not cycled and seemed to last forever.
>
>I was actually disagreeing with you. There are lots of possible reasons
>for the marquee lights failing prematurely. I'm not a tungsten expert
>myself, so I'd be very interested in seeing actual data that shows a
>dramatic shortening of life due to cycling. I'm not saying it's
>impossible, just that I haven't seen any such data.
about 1966. The theater actually did keep records so that they could
stock enough replacement bulbs, but I don't have copies of any of
that.
I tried Googling for similar repetative on-off tests and didn't find
anything. If I have time, I'll try again. I must admit that the lack
of test data does look suspicious. Perhaps sending the idea to
Mythbusters and have them runs a test?
>The filament isn't tungsten-plated, it's pure tungsten or a low alloy.
>The brightness drop comes from tungsten condensing on the envelope.
>And the connecting wire isn't plain steel, it's generally Dumet,
>http://www.jlcelectromet.com/dumetwire.htm
>
>which is a 42% Ni steel with OFHC copper or nickel plating.
>
>You're making a lot of that up. I'd still like to see
>carefully-collected data.
not familiar with. I tried Googling for the wire used, couldn't find
much, and made a bad guess. The plating came from somehow getting
thorium coated tungsten wire used in vacuum tubes mixed up with light
bulbs. Sorry for the errors and muddle.
>Cheers
>Phil Hobbs
Jeff Liebermann
Oct 4, 2012, 1:05:30 PM10/4/12
to
On Wed, 3 Oct 2012 10:34:04 +0000 (UTC), "Geoffrey S. Mendelson"
<g...@mendelson.com> wrote:
>Tom Biasi wrote:
>>> Not so. With mechanical devices, regular moderate use provides a longer
>>> useful lifetime than using the device only rarely.
>>>
>>>
>> I don't agree but will say no more.
>
>Laser printers. I have given away for parts several laser printers because
>they sat unused 99% of the time, and started to jam when I printed the
>one or two pages a month I needed them for.
I've seen flat spots on laser printers. However, just running a few
<g...@mendelson.com> wrote:
>Tom Biasi wrote:
>>> Not so. With mechanical devices, regular moderate use provides a longer
>>> useful lifetime than using the device only rarely.
>>>
>>>
>> I don't agree but will say no more.
>
>Laser printers. I have given away for parts several laser printers because
>they sat unused 99% of the time, and started to jam when I printed the
>one or two pages a month I needed them for.
pages through the printer usually returns them to normal. If not, use
some rubber roller restorer to soften the rubber.
<http://www.fixyourownprinter.com/specials/misc/all/S03>
In my experience, many printer jams are caused by paper slippage on
the rollers. Usually, it's the white paper dust that causes slippage,
but it can easily be household dust accumulated over the time the
printer was idle. Maybe hitting the printer with a compressed air
blast before operating might help.
Another slippage problem is when the rubber surface becomes glazed or
polished. The rubber roller restorer will take the surface gloss off
the rollers, and improve the traction, but if there's any rubber wear,
the roller(s) should be replaced.
>Not only did the rubber wheels dry out and lose their ability to grab paper,
>they flatten where they are pressed against something.
>
>I have a perfectly good Samsung laser printer in that condition now.
cheap, function adequately, use overpriced toner carts, and don't last
very long. I've never really done an autopsy to isolate a culprit.
The usual end of life symptoms are either paper jams or flimsy broken
plastic parts.
>My choices are to once a week clean out a jam, and clean the feed roller;
>print something everyday (a waste of paper); spend $15 for a new roller
>(including postage) and an hour to install it; or wait for a sale
>(every 2-3 months) and buy a newer faster, higher resolution model with a
>2,000 page toner cartridge included for less than the cost of a full load toner.
printers. They have their own collection of problems, but parts and
refills are commonly available and cheap. The printer cannibals sell
used parts and assemblies fairly cheap on eBay. Also, expertise is
more easily found:
<http://www.fixyourownprinter.com>
My favorite printer of the week is the HP 2300DN or DTN at between $90
to $220 used depending on condition and options. Favorite feature is
double sided (duplex) printing.
>Geoff.
Jeff Liebermann
Oct 4, 2012, 1:19:01 PM10/4/12
to
On Wed, 03 Oct 2012 19:42:21 -0400, "k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"
<k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
>My 39YO HP45 still works but the power switch is too flaky to be usable.
I collect old HP LED type calculators. The HP 45 is well worth fixing
<k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
>My 39YO HP45 still works but the power switch is too flaky to be usable.
and using.
The switches tend to fail due to dirt accumulation and/or wearing a
grove into the PCB contact area from overuse. I've repaired both
problems.
<http://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/hpmuseum/archv018.cgi?read=131014>
This is the dirt problem:
<http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f96/geoff_q/gunk.jpg>
I couldn't find a photo of a grove worn in the contacts. I've been
quite successful with just cleaning the switch area. I've also
repaired missing gold problems with gold leaf. It was difficult,
required a microscope, a steady hand, no air movement, and
considerable patience.
George Herold
Oct 4, 2012, 2:57:21 PM10/4/12
to
On Oct 4, 12:43 pm, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 04 Oct 2012 10:03:21 -0400, Phil Hobbs
>
>
>
>
>
> <pcdhSpamMeSensel...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
> >On 10/03/2012 09:41 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >> On Wed, 03 Oct 2012 10:32:57 -0400, Phil Hobbs
> >> <pcdhSpamMeSensel...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 04 Oct 2012 10:03:21 -0400, Phil Hobbs
>
>
>
>
>
> <pcdhSpamMeSensel...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
> >On 10/03/2012 09:41 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >> On Wed, 03 Oct 2012 10:32:57 -0400, Phil Hobbs
>
> >>> I don't know of any data that supports this common idea, but I'd be
> >>> interested in reading about it if anybody's actually done the experiment
> >>> carefully.
>
> >> It's an accelerated life test. The deration curve of the incandescent
> >> light bulb is well known and assumed to be
> >> (Vapplied/Vdesign)^-12 to ^-16 * Life at design voltage
> >> <http://www.welchallyn.com/documents/Lighting/OEM_Halogen_Lighting/MC3...>
> >>> I don't know of any data that supports this common idea, but I'd be
> >>> interested in reading about it if anybody's actually done the experiment
> >>> carefully.
>
> >> It's an accelerated life test. The deration curve of the incandescent
> >> light bulb is well known and assumed to be
> >> (Vapplied/Vdesign)^-12 to ^-16 * Life at design voltage
> >> See Fig 5 on Pg 5 for the graph. Nobody wants to wait 1000 hours for
> >> a bulb to blow. So, they increase the applied voltage, which
> >> dramatically decreases the lifetime down to reasonable test times.
> >> Using a rack of bulbs, they obtain an average (or median) lifetime at
> >> the higher voltage. Then, they work backwards on the curve to
> >> estimate what it would be at the design voltage.
>
> >You can't run an accelerated life test when the exponent isn't known
> >more accurately than 12 to 16.
>
> True, but I believe that's the range expected from different types of
> light bulbs (nitrogen filled, halogen, vaccuum), and not the range
> expected for a given device. I suspect that more accurate exponent
> value could be empirically determined for a given device, and later
> used only for that device.
>
> >> Yep. As I understand it (possible wrong), AC filaments break in the
> >> middle, mostly from vibration flexing.
>
> >I don't think so, because there's no mechanism for that, as I said. The
> >wire is fully annealed at all times, so there's no possibility of
> >progressive fatigue failure.
>
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescent_light_bulb#Reducing_filamen...>
> >> a bulb to blow. So, they increase the applied voltage, which
> >> dramatically decreases the lifetime down to reasonable test times.
> >> Using a rack of bulbs, they obtain an average (or median) lifetime at
> >> the higher voltage. Then, they work backwards on the curve to
> >> estimate what it would be at the design voltage.
>
> >You can't run an accelerated life test when the exponent isn't known
> >more accurately than 12 to 16.
>
> True, but I believe that's the range expected from different types of
> light bulbs (nitrogen filled, halogen, vaccuum), and not the range
> expected for a given device. I suspect that more accurate exponent
> value could be empirically determined for a given device, and later
> used only for that device.
>
> >> Yep. As I understand it (possible wrong), AC filaments break in the
> >> middle, mostly from vibration flexing.
>
> >I don't think so, because there's no mechanism for that, as I said. The
> >wire is fully annealed at all times, so there's no possibility of
> >progressive fatigue failure.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Hi Jeff, Phil. First I know nothing about incandescent bulbs.
But how about this as a model of why turning bulbs on and off might
cause them to fail sooner.
1.) I think we all observe that bulbs tend to blow when you turn them
on.
(unless you knock the lamp over or something.)
2.) I assume that the failure is mostly due to the thinner ‘hot spots’
on the filament. Thinner regions heat up faster (higher resistance
with equal current).
3.) Now even if the thinner region doesn’t blow, it still gets hotter
and loses a bit more tungsten than the rest of the filament. (For
that small amount of time that it’s turning on.) But still this means
that turning on the bulb causes the thin region to become a bit
thinner.
And that’s it. Repeated on and off means that the thin region has a
higher average temperature than the thick part of the filament. It
evaporates faster and fails sooner.
George H.
Geoffrey S. Mendelson
Oct 4, 2012, 3:29:04 PM10/4/12
to
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> refills are commonly available and cheap. The printer cannibals sell
> used parts and assemblies fairly cheap on eBay. Also, expertise is
> more easily found:
><http://www.fixyourownprinter.com>
> My favorite printer of the week is the HP 2300DN or DTN at between $90
> to $220 used depending on condition and options. Favorite feature is
> double sided (duplex) printing.
Problem with that is my location. Shipping anything from anywhere except
> refills are commonly available and cheap. The printer cannibals sell
> used parts and assemblies fairly cheap on eBay. Also, expertise is
> more easily found:
><http://www.fixyourownprinter.com>
> My favorite printer of the week is the HP 2300DN or DTN at between $90
> to $220 used depending on condition and options. Favorite feature is
> double sided (duplex) printing.
China is too expensive to make it worth while. A $10 (postage included)
Samsung feed roller is worth buying, a part that does not fit in an envelope
and has to go in a USPS box costs 1/2 to 1/3 the cost of a cheap Samsung
printer. UPS/DHL/FDEDX double or tripple that price.
Also to be honest, the loss/theft rate from the US is too high to buy
from unless it is via PayPal and eBay.
Phil Hobbs
Oct 4, 2012, 4:28:30 PM10/4/12
to
mechanism. Certainly you'd expect that to be important right near the
end of the bulb's life, so maybe it's important throughout.
Jeff Liebermann
Oct 4, 2012, 5:05:23 PM10/4/12
to
On Thu, 4 Oct 2012 11:57:21 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
<ghe...@teachspin.com> wrote:
>Hi Jeff, Phil. First I know nothing about incandescent bulbs.
I'm still learning (mostly from my mistakes).
<ghe...@teachspin.com> wrote:
>Hi Jeff, Phil. First I know nothing about incandescent bulbs.
I blundered across this video on tungsten filaments.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIGqBb3iZPo> 3:38
While it doesn't touch any of the issues previously mentioned, it does
include some interesting info on how the filament is made and its
structure.
Tom Biasi
Oct 4, 2012, 5:15:34 PM10/4/12
to
On 10/3/2012 2:01 AM, MikeS wrote:
>> Using anything shortens it's working life.
>
> Seems to go against the whole ethos of exercising. Never get out of bed and
> live forever ...
>
>
If you were an android that may be true.
>> Using anything shortens it's working life.
>
> Seems to go against the whole ethos of exercising. Never get out of bed and
> live forever ...
>
>
Dave Plowman (News)
Oct 4, 2012, 7:11:38 PM10/4/12
to
In article <slrnk6ror...@cable.mendelson.com>,
iron. Not one to be had in the UK. Got one from Pace US direct at not a
bad price - but they charged 40 gbp for P&P by courier - wouldn't send it
by post. So the delivered price was considerably more than the delivered
price from a UK supplier. If it had been coming from Hong Kong or China,
would have been less than half the price and free postage...
There's lots of stuff I'd buy from the US if they would sort out their
postal service. I get the impression as much is stolen as delivered.
--
*Two wrongs are only the beginning *
Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Geoffrey S. Mendelson <g...@mendelson.com> wrote:
> Problem with that is my location. Shipping anything from anywhere except
> China is too expensive to make it worth while. A $10 (postage included)
> Samsung feed roller is worth buying, a part that does not fit in an
> envelope and has to go in a USPS box costs 1/2 to 1/3 the cost of a
> cheap Samsung printer. UPS/DHL/FDEDX double or tripple that price.
> Also to be honest, the loss/theft rate from the US is too high to buy
> from unless it is via PayPal and eBay.
Couple of years back I needed a new element for my Pace SX80 desolder
> China is too expensive to make it worth while. A $10 (postage included)
> Samsung feed roller is worth buying, a part that does not fit in an
> envelope and has to go in a USPS box costs 1/2 to 1/3 the cost of a
> cheap Samsung printer. UPS/DHL/FDEDX double or tripple that price.
> Also to be honest, the loss/theft rate from the US is too high to buy
> from unless it is via PayPal and eBay.
iron. Not one to be had in the UK. Got one from Pace US direct at not a
bad price - but they charged 40 gbp for P&P by courier - wouldn't send it
by post. So the delivered price was considerably more than the delivered
price from a UK supplier. If it had been coming from Hong Kong or China,
would have been less than half the price and free postage...
There's lots of stuff I'd buy from the US if they would sort out their
postal service. I get the impression as much is stolen as delivered.
--
*Two wrongs are only the beginning *
Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
George Herold
Oct 4, 2012, 7:37:37 PM10/4/12
to
On Oct 4, 4:28 pm, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSensel...@electrooptical.net>
> > 2.) I assume that the failure is mostly due to the thinner �hot spots�
tonight.
If the time to fail goes as some big power of the voltage
(temperature),
then during turn on, small diameter variations (or defects)
get amplfied.
A 'long life' 40 Watt bulb would fail almost as fast as a 100 W'er.
(Of course I've got my 'lifetime supply' of 100W bulbs, and didn't
budget any for research.)
George H.
> > on the filament. Thinner regions heat up faster (higher resistance
> > with equal current).
>
> > 3.) Now even if the thinner region doesn�t blow, it still gets hotter
> > with equal current).
>
> > and loses a bit more tungsten than the rest of the filament. (For
> > that small amount of time that it�s turning on.) But still this means
> > that turning on the bulb causes the thin region to become a bit
> > thinner.
>
> > And that�s it. Repeated on and off means that the thin region has a
> > thinner.
>
> > higher average temperature than the thick part of the filament. It
> > evaporates faster and fails sooner.
>
> > George H.
>
> If the effect is real, that sounds like a good candidate for a
> mechanism. Certainly you'd expect that to be important right near the
> end of the bulb's life, so maybe it's important throughout.
>
> Cheers
>
> Phil Hobbs
>
> --
> Dr Philip C D Hobbs
> Principal Consultant
> ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
> Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
>
> 160 North State Road #203
> Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
>
> hobbs at electrooptical dot nethttp://electrooptical.net- Hide quoted text -
> > evaporates faster and fails sooner.
>
> > George H.
>
> If the effect is real, that sounds like a good candidate for a
> mechanism. Certainly you'd expect that to be important right near the
> end of the bulb's life, so maybe it's important throughout.
>
> Cheers
>
> Phil Hobbs
>
> --
> Dr Philip C D Hobbs
> Principal Consultant
> ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
> Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
>
> 160 North State Road #203
> Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yeah, I was thinking about this while splitting/stacking wood
> - Show quoted text -
tonight.
If the time to fail goes as some big power of the voltage
(temperature),
then during turn on, small diameter variations (or defects)
get amplfied.
A 'long life' 40 Watt bulb would fail almost as fast as a 100 W'er.
(Of course I've got my 'lifetime supply' of 100W bulbs, and didn't
budget any for research.)
George H.
George Herold
Oct 4, 2012, 8:15:40 PM10/4/12
to
On Oct 4, 5:05 pm, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 4 Oct 2012 11:57:21 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
>
> On Thu, 4 Oct 2012 11:57:21 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
>
> <gher...@teachspin.com> wrote:
> >Hi Jeff, Phil. First I know nothing about incandescent bulbs.
>
> I'm still learning (mostly from my mistakes).
It's definitely my mistakes that have taught me the most.
> >Hi Jeff, Phil. First I know nothing about incandescent bulbs.
>
> I'm still learning (mostly from my mistakes).
(my latest f-up had to do with short ultrasonic pulses,
and 1/4 wavelength anti-reflection wave-plates...)
I've no problem with your marquee story. Sometimes folk-tales about
rocks falling from the sky are correct.
The data point I offer to Phil is that bulbs fail when you turn them
on. I see no reason why that can't be 'played backwards'. There most
be some GE, Philips, (other) report that documents turn on failure.
George H.
>
> I blundered across this video on tungsten filaments.
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIGqBb3iZPo> 3:38
> While it doesn't touch any of the issues previously mentioned, it does
> include some interesting info on how the filament is made and its
> structure.
>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Santa Cruz CA 95060http://802.11junk.com
> I blundered across this video on tungsten filaments.
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIGqBb3iZPo> 3:38
> While it doesn't touch any of the issues previously mentioned, it does
> include some interesting info on how the filament is made and its
> structure.
>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Jeff Liebermann
Oct 4, 2012, 8:18:36 PM10/4/12
to
On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 22:21:26 +0100, "jim stone"
MP3/AAC music, while others stream from Pandora or Slacker. Most use
an iPhone 3G, iPod Touch, or Droid A855 for the wi-fi connectivity.
All have the phone plugged into a charger. No fatalities.
>Since the phone has no 'moving parts' unlike a computer, we are wondering if
>this continuous playing all day of the phone is going to shorten its working
>life ?
It won't hurt the phone in any way. However, the internal battery is
another story. For Li-Ion, battery life is shortened when the battery
is hot, and when it's left at full charge all the time. For details,
see:
<http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries>
Most Li-ions are charged to 4.20V/cell and every reduction
of 0.10V/cell is said to double cycle life.
This is not much of a problem for easily replaceable inexpensive
batteries, such as in the Droid A855, but might be an issue with the
designed obsolescent iPhone series, where brain surgery is required to
replace the battery. Apple has therefore wisely elected to charge
their Li-Ion batteries to 4.1v or what I estimate to be 95% of full
capacity. This greatly extends the battery life and will delay when
you start cursing Apple products to about 3 years.
<http://stephenwmoore.wordpress.com/2009/07/21/iphone-battery-life/>
Someone mentioned having a phone with a dead wi-fi. I have two Apple
3G iPhones, both with intermittent wi-fi sections. If I turn the
power off on the iPhone for a day, the iPhones will have a working
wi-fi section for about 30 minutes. I also have a third working
iPhone 3G, where the wi-fi has never failed. I've been inside trying
to repair them, and failed.
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
<tgh6h...@mail.invalid> wrote:
>Not being able to find a small internet radio to buy we liked, we got mobile
>phone with which we link with wi-fi to a modem router, and use it as an
>internet radio.
>
>Keeping the phoned plugged into its charger all the time, we are using it to
>play *all-day* background classical music through an amplifier and speakers.
Several of my customers do exactly the same thing. Some play stored
>Not being able to find a small internet radio to buy we liked, we got mobile
>phone with which we link with wi-fi to a modem router, and use it as an
>internet radio.
>
>Keeping the phoned plugged into its charger all the time, we are using it to
>play *all-day* background classical music through an amplifier and speakers.
MP3/AAC music, while others stream from Pandora or Slacker. Most use
an iPhone 3G, iPod Touch, or Droid A855 for the wi-fi connectivity.
All have the phone plugged into a charger. No fatalities.
>Since the phone has no 'moving parts' unlike a computer, we are wondering if
>this continuous playing all day of the phone is going to shorten its working
>life ?
another story. For Li-Ion, battery life is shortened when the battery
is hot, and when it's left at full charge all the time. For details,
see:
<http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries>
Most Li-ions are charged to 4.20V/cell and every reduction
of 0.10V/cell is said to double cycle life.
This is not much of a problem for easily replaceable inexpensive
batteries, such as in the Droid A855, but might be an issue with the
designed obsolescent iPhone series, where brain surgery is required to
replace the battery. Apple has therefore wisely elected to charge
their Li-Ion batteries to 4.1v or what I estimate to be 95% of full
capacity. This greatly extends the battery life and will delay when
you start cursing Apple products to about 3 years.
<http://stephenwmoore.wordpress.com/2009/07/21/iphone-battery-life/>
Someone mentioned having a phone with a dead wi-fi. I have two Apple
3G iPhones, both with intermittent wi-fi sections. If I turn the
power off on the iPhone for a day, the iPhones will have a working
wi-fi section for about 30 minutes. I also have a third working
iPhone 3G, where the wi-fi has never failed. I've been inside trying
to repair them, and failed.
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Roderick Stewart
Oct 5, 2012, 6:20:32 AM10/5/12
to
In article <de99517e-e5e1-4f9d-91e0-
the rest of it all the time, not just when the lamp is turning on?
Rod.
--
412ab3...@o8g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, George Herold wrote:
> And that’s it. Repeated on and off means that the thin region has a
> higher average temperature than the thick part of the filament. It
> evaporates faster and fails sooner.
Won't a thin region of a lamp filament have a higher temperature than
> And that’s it. Repeated on and off means that the thin region has a
> higher average temperature than the thick part of the filament. It
> evaporates faster and fails sooner.
the rest of it all the time, not just when the lamp is turning on?
Rod.
--
George Herold
Oct 5, 2012, 10:43:56 AM10/5/12
to
On Oct 5, 6:20 am, Roderick Stewart
<r...@escapetime.removethisbit.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <de99517e-e5e1-4f9d-91e0-
Hmm, sure, maybe... I really have no idea. But I can't remember ever
seeing a bulb fail after being on for a while. (I'm sure it must
happen.) They almost always go when you turn them on, from which I
conclude that the turn on is more 'stressful'.
Say does Don Klipstein still lurk here? He may have some info on turn-
on failure.
http://donklipstein.com/
George H.
<r...@escapetime.removethisbit.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <de99517e-e5e1-4f9d-91e0-
seeing a bulb fail after being on for a while. (I'm sure it must
happen.) They almost always go when you turn them on, from which I
conclude that the turn on is more 'stressful'.
Say does Don Klipstein still lurk here? He may have some info on turn-
on failure.
http://donklipstein.com/
George H.
Jeff Liebermann
Oct 5, 2012, 12:16:49 PM10/5/12
to
On Fri, 5 Oct 2012 07:43:56 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
<ghe...@teachspin.com> wrote:
>Say does Don Klipstein still lurk here? He may have some info on turn-
>on failure.
>http://donklipstein.com/
>George H.
Thanks. He has a section on why and how bulbs burn out at:
<ghe...@teachspin.com> wrote:
>Say does Don Klipstein still lurk here? He may have some info on turn-
>on failure.
>http://donklipstein.com/
>George H.
<http://donklipstein.com/bulb1.html#how>
Phil Hobbs
Oct 5, 2012, 12:19:01 PM10/5/12
to
as to whether George's mechanism explains the alleged effect is whether,
in a newish bulb, the inrush makes the hotspots exceed 2800K or whatever
the normal filament temperature is, before the the inrush current subsides.
I'd expect that to be more of a threshold effect, because the resistance
of the filament ought to be pretty linear with temperature, whereas the
evaporation essentially turns on at around 2500K, so the hot spots would
have to be pretty thin already for it to do much.
But as I say, I'm far from being a tungsten bulb expert myself.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
Phil Hobbs
Oct 5, 2012, 12:20:02 PM10/5/12
to
Jeff Liebermann
Oct 5, 2012, 2:51:28 PM10/5/12
to
On Thu, 04 Oct 2012 10:03:21 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>> Yep. As I understand it (possible wrong), AC filaments break in the
>> middle, mostly from vibration flexing.
>
>I don't think so, because there's no mechanism for that, as I said. The
>wire is fully annealed at all times, so there's no possibility of
>progressive fatigue failure.
Oscillating filament light bulb:
<pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>> Yep. As I understand it (possible wrong), AC filaments break in the
>> middle, mostly from vibration flexing.
>
>I don't think so, because there's no mechanism for that, as I said. The
>wire is fully annealed at all times, so there's no possibility of
>progressive fatigue failure.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_DwwNVA-7Q>
Whether the earths magnetic field is strong enough to induce such
oscillations is questionable.
While digging for the apparently mythical lifetime test data on
incandescent light bulbs, I've found numerous theories on why
filaments fail. Tungsten evaporation, causing hot spots, is the most
common. One suggested that thermal cycling hardens the tungsten and
makes it brittle. Another suggested that the inrush current causes a
mechanical shock if it hits at the 60Hz peak, instead of at the zero
crossing. Yet another speculates that the temperature differential
between the hot filament, and the relatively cold mounting structure
may cause cracking.
Michael A. Terrell
Oct 5, 2012, 3:59:47 PM10/5/12
to
George Herold wrote:
>
> Hmm, sure, maybe... I really have no idea. But I can't remember ever
> seeing a bulb fail after being on for a while.
George Herold
Oct 5, 2012, 4:01:12 PM10/5/12
to
On Oct 5, 2:51 pm, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 04 Oct 2012 10:03:21 -0400, Phil Hobbs
>
> On Thu, 04 Oct 2012 10:03:21 -0400, Phil Hobbs
>
> <pcdhSpamMeSensel...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
> >> Yep. As I understand it (possible wrong), AC filaments break in the
> >> middle, mostly from vibration flexing.
>
> >I don't think so, because there's no mechanism for that, as I said. The
> >wire is fully annealed at all times, so there's no possibility of
> >progressive fatigue failure.
>
> Oscillating filament light bulb:
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_DwwNVA-7Q>
> Whether the earths magnetic field is strong enough to induce such
> oscillations is questionable.
>
> While digging for the apparently mythical lifetime test data on
> incandescent light bulbs, I've found numerous theories on why
> filaments fail.
Grin, the internet as a 'fire hose' of information. I went searching
> >> Yep. As I understand it (possible wrong), AC filaments break in the
> >> middle, mostly from vibration flexing.
>
> >I don't think so, because there's no mechanism for that, as I said. The
> >wire is fully annealed at all times, so there's no possibility of
> >progressive fatigue failure.
>
> Oscillating filament light bulb:
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_DwwNVA-7Q>
> Whether the earths magnetic field is strong enough to induce such
> oscillations is questionable.
>
> While digging for the apparently mythical lifetime test data on
> incandescent light bulbs, I've found numerous theories on why
> filaments fail.
for something that contained "Philips tech. rev." and found a
reference to the following article,
H. Horster, E. Kauer and W. Lechner — The Burn-out Mechanism of
Incandescent Lamps Philips Technical Review 32,155-164, 1971.
It was referenced in "Illuminating Engineering - Page 32 - Google
Books"
But nothing about turn on failure... sigh.
Here is a patent by some of the same guys at Philips... lots of stuff
about the filament getting hottest in the middle.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3868159.html
(Actually a decently written patent.)
George H.
Tungsten evaporation, causing hot spots, is the most
> common. One suggested that thermal cycling hardens the tungsten and
> makes it brittle. Another suggested that the inrush current causes a
> mechanical shock if it hits at the 60Hz peak, instead of at the zero
> crossing. Yet another speculates that the temperature differential
> between the hot filament, and the relatively cold mounting structure
> may cause cracking.
>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
G
Michael A. Terrell
Oct 5, 2012, 4:02:37 PM10/5/12
to
Phil Hobbs wrote:
>
> I've never had a package stolen, as far as I can recall.
reasonable terms with the US postal system.
Phil Hobbs
Oct 5, 2012, 6:36:08 PM10/5/12
to
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
> On Thu, 04 Oct 2012 10:03:21 -0400, Phil Hobbs
> <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>
> >> Yep. As I understand it (possible wrong), AC filaments break in the
> >> middle, mostly from vibration flexing.
> >
> >I don't think so, because there's no mechanism for that, as I said. The
> >wire is fully annealed at all times, so there's no possibility of
> >progressive fatigue failure.
>
> Oscillating filament light bulb:
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_DwwNVA-7Q>
> Whether the earths magnetic field is strong enough to induce such
> oscillations is questionable.
>
> While digging for the apparently mythical lifetime test data on
> incandescent light bulbs, I've found numerous theories on why
> filaments fail. Tungsten evaporation, causing hot spots, is the most
> common. One suggested that thermal cycling hardens the tungsten and
> makes it brittle. Another suggested that the inrush current causes a
> mechanical shock if it hits at the 60Hz peak, instead of at the zero
> crossing. Yet another speculates that the temperature differential
> between the hot filament, and the relatively cold mounting structure
> may cause cracking.
>
> --
All of those except the hot spot mechanism assume that the tungsten
>
> On Thu, 04 Oct 2012 10:03:21 -0400, Phil Hobbs
> <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>
> >> Yep. As I understand it (possible wrong), AC filaments break in the
> >> middle, mostly from vibration flexing.
> >
> >I don't think so, because there's no mechanism for that, as I said. The
> >wire is fully annealed at all times, so there's no possibility of
> >progressive fatigue failure.
>
> Oscillating filament light bulb:
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_DwwNVA-7Q>
> Whether the earths magnetic field is strong enough to induce such
> oscillations is questionable.
>
> While digging for the apparently mythical lifetime test data on
> incandescent light bulbs, I've found numerous theories on why
> filaments fail. Tungsten evaporation, causing hot spots, is the most
> common. One suggested that thermal cycling hardens the tungsten and
> makes it brittle. Another suggested that the inrush current causes a
> mechanical shock if it hits at the 60Hz peak, instead of at the zero
> crossing. Yet another speculates that the temperature differential
> between the hot filament, and the relatively cold mounting structure
> may cause cracking.
>
> --
work-hardens in the bulb and then fails from fatigue. However, that
isn't the case, because the annealing temperature of tungsten is about
1300 C, so the tungsten in a light bulb filament is always fully
annealed.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
Phil Hobbs
Oct 5, 2012, 7:00:56 PM10/5/12
to
furtherst from the support, so whatever conductive heat sinking there is
will be less, but more than that, it sees the radiative input from the
rest of the filament on both sides instead of just one.
Sort of similar to the case of a long solenoid, whose B field at the
ends is half what it is in the middle.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
Dave Plowman (News)
Oct 5, 2012, 7:11:01 PM10/5/12
to
In article <GcKdnTpQbqR-ofLN...@earthlink.com>,
Other countries seem quite happy to use ordinary post to the UK. The US,
not. So explain that.
--
*Never put off until tomorrow what you can avoid altogether *
not. So explain that.
--
*Never put off until tomorrow what you can avoid altogether *
Phil Hobbs
Oct 5, 2012, 7:15:30 PM10/5/12
to
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
>
> In article <GcKdnTpQbqR-ofLN...@earthlink.com>,
> Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > Phil Hobbs wrote:
> > >
> > > I've never had a package stolen, as far as I can recall.
>
> > Me, either. It's probably that their postal system won't come to
> > reasonable terms with the US postal system.
>
> Other countries seem quite happy to use ordinary post to the UK. The US,
> not. So explain that.
Probably the War of 1812. ;)
>
> In article <GcKdnTpQbqR-ofLN...@earthlink.com>,
> Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > Phil Hobbs wrote:
> > >
> > > I've never had a package stolen, as far as I can recall.
>
> > Me, either. It's probably that their postal system won't come to
> > reasonable terms with the US postal system.
>
> Other countries seem quite happy to use ordinary post to the UK. The US,
> not. So explain that.
Coming from Canada, I can tell you that the USPS is very nearly flawless
when compared with Canada Post. Those morons can't find their rear ends
with both hands and a map.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
Oct 5, 2012, 7:47:46 PM10/5/12
to
this would cause a narrowing. ISTR most filaments broken near the supports,
which would be counter to the hotter-in-the-middle theory.
My theory is that bulbs tend to fail when turned on because of the thermal
shock but only because they were about to fail anyway. Cycling, itself,
doesn't have a huge effect on longevity, certainly not a factor of two.
>Sort of similar to the case of a long solenoid, whose B field at the
>ends is half what it is in the middle.
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
Oct 5, 2012, 7:50:19 PM10/5/12
to
On Sat, 06 Oct 2012 00:11:01 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
<da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <GcKdnTpQbqR-ofLN...@earthlink.com>,
> Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Phil Hobbs wrote:
>> >
>> > I've never had a package stolen, as far as I can recall.
>
>
>> Me, either. It's probably that their postal system won't come to
>> reasonable terms with the US postal system.
Nope, not here either.
<da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <GcKdnTpQbqR-ofLN...@earthlink.com>,
> Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Phil Hobbs wrote:
>> >
>> > I've never had a package stolen, as far as I can recall.
>
>
>> Me, either. It's probably that their postal system won't come to
>> reasonable terms with the US postal system.
>Other countries seem quite happy to use ordinary post to the UK. The US,
>not. So explain that.
Michael A. Terrell
Oct 6, 2012, 2:20:43 AM10/6/12
to
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
>
> In article <GcKdnTpQbqR-ofLN...@earthlink.com>,
> Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > Phil Hobbs wrote:
> > >
> > > I've never had a package stolen, as far as I can recall.
>
> > Me, either. It's probably that their postal system won't come to
> > reasonable terms with the US postal system.
>
> Other countries seem quite happy to use ordinary post to the UK. The US,
> not. So explain that.
rates are agreed on between countries, and the British system is the
only that people constantly complain about. Likely high tarriffs on
imports from the US that are imposed on incoming goods.
T
Oct 6, 2012, 3:16:46 AM10/6/12
to
In article <k4jdel$cb4$2...@reversiblemaps.ath.cx>, ja...@xnet.co.nz
says...
My favorite apps on my phone:
TuneIn, Pandora, ScannerRadioPro, EchoLink and RepeaterBook.
And that's kind of why I got the extended battery pack for the phone.
says...
>
> On 2012-10-02, jim stone <tgh6h...@mail.invalid> wrote:
> > Not being able to find a small internet radio to buy we liked, we got mobile
> > phone with which we link with wi-fi to a modem router, and use it as an
> > internet radio.
> >
> > Keeping the phoned plugged into its charger all the time, we are using it to
> > play *all-day* background classical music through an amplifier and speakers.
> >
> On 2012-10-02, jim stone <tgh6h...@mail.invalid> wrote:
> > Not being able to find a small internet radio to buy we liked, we got mobile
> > phone with which we link with wi-fi to a modem router, and use it as an
> > internet radio.
> >
> > Keeping the phoned plugged into its charger all the time, we are using it to
> > play *all-day* background classical music through an amplifier and speakers.
> >
> > Since the phone has no 'moving parts' unlike a computer, we are wondering if
> > this continuous playing all day of the phone is going to shorten its working
> > life ?
>
> It may be bad for the battery
> > this continuous playing all day of the phone is going to shorten its working
> > life ?
>
My favorite apps on my phone:
TuneIn, Pandora, ScannerRadioPro, EchoLink and RepeaterBook.
And that's kind of why I got the extended battery pack for the phone.
MB
Oct 6, 2012, 4:28:03 AM10/6/12
to
On 06/10/2012 00:15, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
>>
>> In article <GcKdnTpQbqR-ofLN...@earthlink.com>,
>> Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I've never had a package stolen, as far as I can recall.
>>
>>> Me, either. It's probably that their postal system won't come to
>>> reasonable terms with the US postal system.
>>
>> Other countries seem quite happy to use ordinary post to the UK. The US,
>> not. So explain that.
>
>
> Probably the War of 1812. ;)
>
> Coming from Canada, I can tell you that the USPS is very nearly flawless
> when compared with Canada Post. Those morons can't find their rear ends
> with both hands and a map.
>
The Americans do seem generally to be used to sending a lot by courier
> "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
>>
>> In article <GcKdnTpQbqR-ofLN...@earthlink.com>,
>> Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I've never had a package stolen, as far as I can recall.
>>
>>> Me, either. It's probably that their postal system won't come to
>>> reasonable terms with the US postal system.
>>
>> Other countries seem quite happy to use ordinary post to the UK. The US,
>> not. So explain that.
>
>
> Probably the War of 1812. ;)
>
> Coming from Canada, I can tell you that the USPS is very nearly flawless
> when compared with Canada Post. Those morons can't find their rear ends
> with both hands and a map.
>
when we would just put in the post. Tending to happen in the UK also
even though the Royal Mail / Parcelforce often give a better service and
of course do not charge extra to send further. There has been a big
campaign in the North of Scotland about companies charging extra for
many postcode areas.
Dave Plowman (News)
Oct 6, 2012, 6:14:39 AM10/6/12
to
In article <mY2dnbVhx85fUPLN...@earthlink.com>,
Sigh. Try reading what was said. Most US companies refuse to send anything
to the UK by normal post. They insist on using a courier service. If the
fault was at the UK end, this would apply to all other countries sending
things here. I know logic isn't your strong point - at least compared to
your blind patriotism - but even then...
--
*Don't squat with your spurs on *
to the UK by normal post. They insist on using a courier service. If the
fault was at the UK end, this would apply to all other countries sending
things here. I know logic isn't your strong point - at least compared to
your blind patriotism - but even then...
--
*Don't squat with your spurs on *
Dave Plowman (News)
Oct 6, 2012, 6:18:11 AM10/6/12
to
In article <EfmdnfC5gagOdvLN...@bt.com>,
happily considered.
> Tending to happen in the UK also
> even though the Royal Mail / Parcelforce often give a better service and
> of course do not charge extra to send further. There has been a big
> campaign in the North of Scotland about companies charging extra for
> many postcode areas.
It's what happens when private firms cherry pick the most profitable stuff.
--
*That's it! I僧 calling grandma!
MB <M...@nospam.nospam> wrote:
> The Americans do seem generally to be used to sending a lot by courier
> when we would just put in the post.
Quite. And I was simply guessing at an explanation. Any better guesses
> The Americans do seem generally to be used to sending a lot by courier
> when we would just put in the post.
happily considered.
> Tending to happen in the UK also
> even though the Royal Mail / Parcelforce often give a better service and
> of course do not charge extra to send further. There has been a big
> campaign in the North of Scotland about companies charging extra for
> many postcode areas.
--
*That's it! I僧 calling grandma!
Phil Hobbs
Oct 6, 2012, 7:06:22 AM10/6/12
to
with a borated copper coating to bind to the glass. It's much
lower-melting than the tungsten, so spot-welding them together shouldn't
affect the tungsten much.
A necked-down hot spot is a stress concentration point, and ones nearer
the support would have more mass hanging off them. When the filament
jumps at turn-on, hot spots at the ends will probably more torque applied.
>
> My theory is that bulbs tend to fail when turned on because of the thermal
> shock but only because they were about to fail anyway. Cycling, itself,
> doesn't have a huge effect on longevity, certainly not a factor of two.
>
>> Sort of similar to the case of a long solenoid, whose B field at the
>> ends is half what it is in the middle.
>
> Do they only burn out when energized? ;-)
big-iron transmitter guy. Gotta run, I have a bunch of guys coming to
the lab in a few minutes, and I have to start the coffee pot!
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
Phil Hobbs
Oct 6, 2012, 7:25:54 AM10/6/12
to
bunch of business documents in the snail mail sort of says that their
input isn't that urgent. Letter mail here is also very secure IME.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
Bob Masta
Oct 6, 2012, 8:14:50 AM10/6/12
to
had one stolen from UPS.
Back in 1974 I had some stereo equipment stolen in a
break-in, and ordered a replacement to be sent UPS. The
shipment arrived while I was at work, so they left a note
that they'd try the next day. I called and said I'd pick it
up from their office after I got off work.
It was December, so there was a long line. After an
interminable wait, they said they didn't have the package...
must've gone out for delivery again by mistake. Got home,
no note. Called again and repeated everything the next day.
They finally admitted that they couldn't find the package,
and blamed it on the seasonal help. They eventually paid
for a replacement, after a lot of paperwork.
In all the years since, though, I've never had a problem.
(Of course, I became gun-shy about ordering "good stuff" in
December!)
Best regards,
Bob Masta
DAQARTA v7.10
Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis
www.daqarta.com
Scope, Spectrum, Spectrogram, Sound Level Meter
Frequency Counter, Pitch Track, Pitch-to-MIDI
FREE Signal Generator, DaqMusic generator
Science with your sound card!
Dave Plowman (News)
Oct 6, 2012, 9:08:41 AM10/6/12
to
In article <epudnWDGL-LfiO3N...@supernews.com>,
goods from the US where I'm paying the P&P and not having the choice of a
reasonably priced service. Why would I want to pay in some cases more than
the value of the goods for postage, if I'm in no rush to receive them?
--
*A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking *
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
> > The Americans do seem generally to be used to sending a lot by courier
> > when we would just put in the post. Tending to happen in the UK also
> > even though the Royal Mail / Parcelforce often give a better service
> > and of course do not charge extra to send further. There has been a
> > big campaign in the North of Scotland about companies charging extra
> > for many postcode areas.
> That's mostly a business etiquette thing, I think. Sending somebody a
> bunch of business documents in the snail mail sort of says that their
> input isn't that urgent. Letter mail here is also very secure IME.
Fine if 'they' want to do this and pay for it. My complaint is buying
> > The Americans do seem generally to be used to sending a lot by courier
> > when we would just put in the post. Tending to happen in the UK also
> > even though the Royal Mail / Parcelforce often give a better service
> > and of course do not charge extra to send further. There has been a
> > big campaign in the North of Scotland about companies charging extra
> > for many postcode areas.
> That's mostly a business etiquette thing, I think. Sending somebody a
> bunch of business documents in the snail mail sort of says that their
> input isn't that urgent. Letter mail here is also very secure IME.
goods from the US where I'm paying the P&P and not having the choice of a
reasonably priced service. Why would I want to pay in some cases more than
the value of the goods for postage, if I'm in no rush to receive them?
--
*A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking *
Phil Hobbs
Oct 6, 2012, 10:35:48 AM10/6/12
to
On 10/06/2012 09:08 AM, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article<epudnWDGL-LfiO3N...@supernews.com>,
> Phil Hobbs<pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>> The Americans do seem generally to be used to sending a lot by courier
>>> when we would just put in the post. Tending to happen in the UK also
>>> even though the Royal Mail / Parcelforce often give a better service
>>> and of course do not charge extra to send further. There has been a
>>> big campaign in the North of Scotland about companies charging extra
>>> for many postcode areas.
>
>
>> That's mostly a business etiquette thing, I think. Sending somebody a
>> bunch of business documents in the snail mail sort of says that their
>> input isn't that urgent. Letter mail here is also very secure IME.
>
> Fine if 'they' want to do this and pay for it. My complaint is buying
> goods from the US where I'm paying the P&P and not having the choice of a
> reasonably priced service. Why would I want to pay in some cases more than
> the value of the goods for postage, if I'm in no rush to receive them?
>
Dunno. It may have something to do with package tracking and fraudulent
> In article<epudnWDGL-LfiO3N...@supernews.com>,
> Phil Hobbs<pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>> The Americans do seem generally to be used to sending a lot by courier
>>> when we would just put in the post. Tending to happen in the UK also
>>> even though the Royal Mail / Parcelforce often give a better service
>>> and of course do not charge extra to send further. There has been a
>>> big campaign in the North of Scotland about companies charging extra
>>> for many postcode areas.
>
>
>> That's mostly a business etiquette thing, I think. Sending somebody a
>> bunch of business documents in the snail mail sort of says that their
>> input isn't that urgent. Letter mail here is also very secure IME.
>
> Fine if 'they' want to do this and pay for it. My complaint is buying
> goods from the US where I'm paying the P&P and not having the choice of a
> reasonably priced service. Why would I want to pay in some cases more than
> the value of the goods for postage, if I'm in no rush to receive them?
>
claims for loss or damage. The logistics companies give you one
tracking number that works anywhere in the world, whereas the post
offices all generate confusion and duplicated numbers that make it very
hard to establish whether something got delivered, and if not, where it
went.
Here, there's lots of competition in logistics, so the service is
generally excellent and the cost very reasonable.
US postal rates are also quite low, which may make it more difficult for
them to negotiate a revenue sharing agreement with higher cost
organizations. (Canada Post is the example I'm most familiar with--at
one point quite recently, all mail from the US to Canada had to go
through the central Toronto sorting facility, even if it was a letter
sent from Vancouver to Seattle.)
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
Oct 6, 2012, 11:14:42 AM10/6/12
to
On Sat, 06 Oct 2012 07:06:22 -0400, Phil Hobbs
Welding5 is welding. Metal has to flow, no?
with light bulbs burning out when turned on).
>But you're the big-iron transmitter guy.
^^^^^^^^^^^
Huh? I think you have me confused with someone else.
>Gotta run, I have a bunch of guys coming to
>the lab in a few minutes, and I have to start the coffee pot!
Most important. Get the good stuff.
>
>A necked-down hot spot is a stress concentration point, and ones nearer
>the support would have more mass hanging off them. When the filament
>jumps at turn-on, hot spots at the ends will probably more torque applied.
>
>> My theory is that bulbs tend to fail when turned on because of the thermal
>> shock but only because they were about to fail anyway. Cycling, itself,
>> doesn't have a huge effect on longevity, certainly not a factor of two.
>>
>>> Sort of similar to the case of a long solenoid, whose B field at the
>>> ends is half what it is in the middle.
>>
>> Do they only burn out when energized? ;-)
>
>I've never seen one burn out that wasn't energized.
OK, perhaps I sh6ould have said *as* they-re energized (to keep th6e corollary
>A necked-down hot spot is a stress concentration point, and ones nearer
>the support would have more mass hanging off them. When the filament
>jumps at turn-on, hot spots at the ends will probably more torque applied.
>
>> My theory is that bulbs tend to fail when turned on because of the thermal
>> shock but only because they were about to fail anyway. Cycling, itself,
>> doesn't have a huge effect on longevity, certainly not a factor of two.
>>
>>> Sort of similar to the case of a long solenoid, whose B field at the
>>> ends is half what it is in the middle.
>>
>> Do they only burn out when energized? ;-)
>
>I've never seen one burn out that wasn't energized.
with light bulbs burning out when turned on).
>But you're the big-iron transmitter guy.
Huh? I think you have me confused with someone else.
>Gotta run, I have a bunch of guys coming to
>the lab in a few minutes, and I have to start the coffee pot!
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
Oct 6, 2012, 11:18:22 AM10/6/12
to
On Sat, 06 Oct 2012 09:28:03 +0100, MB <M...@nospam.nospam> wrote:
>On 06/10/2012 00:15, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>> "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
>>>
>>> In article <GcKdnTpQbqR-ofLN...@earthlink.com>,
>>> Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I've never had a package stolen, as far as I can recall.
>>>
>>>> Me, either. It's probably that their postal system won't come to
>>>> reasonable terms with the US postal system.
>>>
>>> Other countries seem quite happy to use ordinary post to the UK. The US,
>>> not. So explain that.
>>
>>
>> Probably the War of 1812. ;)
>>
>> Coming from Canada, I can tell you that the USPS is very nearly flawless
>> when compared with Canada Post. Those morons can't find their rear ends
>> with both hands and a map.
>>
>
>The Americans do seem generally to be used to sending a lot by courier
>when we would just put in the post.
"Courier"? Do you mean "next day" services like FedEx and UPS? Yes, often
>On 06/10/2012 00:15, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>> "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
>>>
>>> In article <GcKdnTpQbqR-ofLN...@earthlink.com>,
>>> Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I've never had a package stolen, as far as I can recall.
>>>
>>>> Me, either. It's probably that their postal system won't come to
>>>> reasonable terms with the US postal system.
>>>
>>> Other countries seem quite happy to use ordinary post to the UK. The US,
>>> not. So explain that.
>>
>>
>> Probably the War of 1812. ;)
>>
>> Coming from Canada, I can tell you that the USPS is very nearly flawless
>> when compared with Canada Post. Those morons can't find their rear ends
>> with both hands and a map.
>>
>
>The Americans do seem generally to be used to sending a lot by courier
>when we would just put in the post.
time is money. "Couriers" are sometimes (rarely) used for intra'-city
delivery when hours count. Intrest on a megabuck pays for courier service.
>Tending to happen in the UK also
>even though the Royal Mail / Parcelforce often give a better service and
>of course do not charge extra to send further. There has been a big
>campaign in the North of Scotland about companies charging extra for
>many postcode areas.
Phil Hobbs
Oct 6, 2012, 11:57:48 AM10/6/12
to
difference is more than that between copper and solder, so it's more
like brazing than normal welding.
>>
>> A necked-down hot spot is a stress concentration point, and ones nearer
>> the support would have more mass hanging off them. When the filament
>> jumps at turn-on, hot spots at the ends will probably more torque applied.
>>
>>> My theory is that bulbs tend to fail when turned on because of the thermal
>>> shock but only because they were about to fail anyway. Cycling, itself,
>>> doesn't have a huge effect on longevity, certainly not a factor of two.
>>>
>>>> Sort of similar to the case of a long solenoid, whose B field at the
>>>> ends is half what it is in the middle.
>>>
>>> Do they only burn out when energized? ;-)
>>
>> I've never seen one burn out that wasn't energized.
>
> OK, perhaps I sh6ould have said *as* they-re energized (to keep th6e corollary
> with light bulbs burning out when turned on).
>
>> But you're the big-iron transmitter guy.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Huh? I think you have me confused with someone else.
>
>> Gotta run, I have a bunch of guys coming to
>> the lab in a few minutes, and I have to start the coffee pot!
>
> Most important. Get the good stuff.
Best beans I've ever come across, and worth the trip. Always a crowd
pleaser.
Geoffrey S. Mendelson
Oct 6, 2012, 12:49:04 PM10/6/12
to
Phil Hobbs wrote:
> The logistics companies give you one
> tracking number that works anywhere in the world, whereas the post
> offices all generate confusion and duplicated numbers that make it very
> hard to establish whether something got delivered, and if not, where it
> went.
>
Registered mail uses one tracking number worldwide too. It's R, a letter,
> The logistics companies give you one
> tracking number that works anywhere in the world, whereas the post
> offices all generate confusion and duplicated numbers that make it very
> hard to establish whether something got delivered, and if not, where it
> went.
>
a fixed length string of numbers and the country code. I can track a
letter or package sent registered mail from almost any country on
17track.net, several other similar sites, and once it is here on the
Israel postal site.
The problem with the US is that they send regular international mail
using a tracking number with an L at the begining, and those are
tracked as far as the first post office the sender drops them off at.
Occasionally they are tracked to a sorting center, but not always, and usually
not.
Several years ago the USPS restructured their rates for mail outside of the
US. They dropped surface mail, replacing it with an air mail system that
takes almost as long. I have had packages take 6 weeks to arrive here airmail
from the US.
They did a survey of prices of the courier services, and simply charge 1/2
of what the courier services do. If you want registered mail, they charge
another $12 or so for it.
Compare that to China which charges a few dollars to send a package, and
another dollar or so for registered mail. Or the UK (and the rest of the
EU) that charge about $5 for postage and registered mail.
> US postal rates are also quite low, which may make it more difficult for
> them to negotiate a revenue sharing agreement with higher cost
> organizations.
for international mail, they also have a very high theft rate, and will
not insure their packages.
As for rates, everyone pays the same rate by international treaty. So the
eBay vendor in central China that pays a few dollars to send his package
is paying the Israel post office the same amount to deliver my mail as
the vendor from the US that pays $16 for the same size package.
The profit/cost above it goes to their national post offices.
It's like cellular roaming rates. I pay .73 NIS ($.20US) per minue to call
on my cell phone from all over europe back to Israel, or to the US.
Someone with a US company can easily pay $3 for the same call, BUT their
cellular company paid the local company the same amount as mine did for
taking the call and forwarding it over international long distance
lines.
Geoff.
--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379
"Owning a smartphone: Technology's equivalent to learning to play
chopsticks on the piano as a child and thinking you're a musician."
(sent to me by a friend)
§ñühwö£f
Oct 6, 2012, 12:51:47 PM10/6/12
to
Phil Hobbs wrote:
> [......]
question: how do I go about getting my old AIWA CX-NA10 stereo system to
read CD's again? Is the lazer bad? It detects the cd and spins up but
wont play it.
--
http://howlingforjustice.wordpress.com
www.snuhwolf.9f.com|www.savewolves.org
_____ ____ ____ __ /\_/\ __ _ ______ _____
/ __/ |/ / / / / // // . . \\ \ |\ | / __ \ \ \ __\
_\ \/ / /_/ / _ / \ / \ \| \| \ \_\ \ \__\ _\
/___/_/|_/\____/_//_/ \_@_/ \__|\__|\____/\____\_\
> [......]
>
> Stew Leonard's Espresso Roast, roasted fresh daily in sunny Yonkers.
> Best beans I've ever come across, and worth the trip. Always a crowd
> pleaser.
>
> Cheers
>
> Phil Hobbs
>
Sorry to hijack this thread but I have an actual electronics repair
> Stew Leonard's Espresso Roast, roasted fresh daily in sunny Yonkers.
> Best beans I've ever come across, and worth the trip. Always a crowd
> pleaser.
>
> Cheers
>
> Phil Hobbs
>
question: how do I go about getting my old AIWA CX-NA10 stereo system to
read CD's again? Is the lazer bad? It detects the cd and spins up but
wont play it.
--
http://howlingforjustice.wordpress.com
www.snuhwolf.9f.com|www.savewolves.org
_____ ____ ____ __ /\_/\ __ _ ______ _____
/ __/ |/ / / / / // // . . \\ \ |\ | / __ \ \ \ __\
_\ \/ / /_/ / _ / \ / \ \| \| \ \_\ \ \__\ _\
/___/_/|_/\____/_//_/ \_@_/ \__|\__|\____/\____\_\
Phil Hobbs
Oct 6, 2012, 12:59:26 PM10/6/12
to
On 10/06/2012 12:49 PM, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
> Phil Hobbs wrote:
>> The logistics companies give you one
>> tracking number that works anywhere in the world, whereas the post
>> offices all generate confusion and duplicated numbers that make it very
>> hard to establish whether something got delivered, and if not, where it
>> went.
>>
>
> Registered mail uses one tracking number worldwide too. It's R, a letter,
> a fixed length string of numbers and the country code. I can track a
> letter or package sent registered mail from almost any country on
> 17track.net, several other similar sites, and once it is here on the
> Israel postal site.
>
> The problem with the US is that they send regular international mail
> using a tracking number with an L at the begining, and those are
> tracked as far as the first post office the sender drops them off at.
>
> Occasionally they are tracked to a sorting center, but not always, and usually
> not.
>
> Several years ago the USPS restructured their rates for mail outside of the
> US. They dropped surface mail, replacing it with an air mail system that
> takes almost as long. I have had packages take 6 weeks to arrive here airmail
> from the US.
>
> They did a survey of prices of the courier services, and simply charge 1/2
> of what the courier services do. If you want registered mail, they charge
> another $12 or so for it.
Sounds like a bargain to me. Very few other organizations would leave
> Phil Hobbs wrote:
>> The logistics companies give you one
>> tracking number that works anywhere in the world, whereas the post
>> offices all generate confusion and duplicated numbers that make it very
>> hard to establish whether something got delivered, and if not, where it
>> went.
>>
>
> Registered mail uses one tracking number worldwide too. It's R, a letter,
> a fixed length string of numbers and the country code. I can track a
> letter or package sent registered mail from almost any country on
> 17track.net, several other similar sites, and once it is here on the
> Israel postal site.
>
> The problem with the US is that they send regular international mail
> using a tracking number with an L at the begining, and those are
> tracked as far as the first post office the sender drops them off at.
>
> Occasionally they are tracked to a sorting center, but not always, and usually
> not.
>
> Several years ago the USPS restructured their rates for mail outside of the
> US. They dropped surface mail, replacing it with an air mail system that
> takes almost as long. I have had packages take 6 weeks to arrive here airmail
> from the US.
>
> They did a survey of prices of the courier services, and simply charge 1/2
> of what the courier services do. If you want registered mail, they charge
> another $12 or so for it.
money on the table like that. I sure wouldn't. Would you?
>
> Compare that to China which charges a few dollars to send a package, and
> another dollar or so for registered mail. Or the UK (and the rest of the
> EU) that charge about $5 for postage and registered mail.
generous folks, those Chinese.
>
>> US postal rates are also quite low, which may make it more difficult for
>> them to negotiate a revenue sharing agreement with higher cost
>> organizations.
>
> No, they are rediculously high. Much more than an other postal service
> for international mail, they also have a very high theft rate, and will
> not insure their packages.
However, they're terrific domestically.
>
> As for rates, everyone pays the same rate by international treaty. So the
> eBay vendor in central China that pays a few dollars to send his package
> is paying the Israel post office the same amount to deliver my mail as
> the vendor from the US that pays $16 for the same size package.
>
> The profit/cost above it goes to their national post offices.
>
> It's like cellular roaming rates. I pay .73 NIS ($.20US) per minue to call
> on my cell phone from all over europe back to Israel, or to the US.
>
> Someone with a US company can easily pay $3 for the same call, BUT their
> cellular company paid the local company the same amount as mine did for
> taking the call and forwarding it over international long distance
> lines.
do my calling over wifi using UMA, so it costs the same as at home. But
I only go there every couple of years.
Phil Hobbs
Oct 6, 2012, 1:00:04 PM10/6/12
to
On 10/06/2012 12:51 PM, §ñühwö£f wrote:
> Phil Hobbs wrote:
>> [......]
>>
>> Stew Leonard's Espresso Roast, roasted fresh daily in sunny Yonkers.
>> Best beans I've ever come across, and worth the trip. Always a crowd
>> pleaser.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Phil Hobbs
>>
> Sorry to hijack this thread but I have an actual electronics repair
> question: how do I go about getting my old AIWA CX-NA10 stereo system to
> read CD's again? Is the lazer bad? It detects the cd and spins up but
> wont play it.
>
>
>
You're no fun anymore.
> Phil Hobbs wrote:
>> [......]
>>
>> Stew Leonard's Espresso Roast, roasted fresh daily in sunny Yonkers.
>> Best beans I've ever come across, and worth the trip. Always a crowd
>> pleaser.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Phil Hobbs
>>
> Sorry to hijack this thread but I have an actual electronics repair
> question: how do I go about getting my old AIWA CX-NA10 stereo system to
> read CD's again? Is the lazer bad? It detects the cd and spins up but
> wont play it.
>
>
>
R. Mark Clayton
Oct 6, 2012, 1:08:56 PM10/6/12
to
"George Herold" <ghe...@teachspin.com> wrote in message
news:6d1dd2cb-0c34-4443...@j14g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 5, 6:20 am, Roderick Stewart
<r...@escapetime.removethisbit.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <de99517e-e5e1-4f9d-91e0-
>
> 412ab3171...@o8g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, George Herold wrote:
> > And that s it. Repeated on and off means that the thin region has a
> > higher average temperature than the thick part of the filament. It
> > evaporates faster and fails sooner.
>
> Won't a thin region of a lamp filament have a higher temperature than
> the rest of it all the time, not just when the lamp is turning on?
>
> Rod.
> --
: Hmm, sure, maybe... I really have no idea. But I can't remember ever
seeing a bulb fail after being on for a while. (I'm sure it must
happen.)
It does, I have seen it quite often.
:They almost always go when you turn them on, from which I
conclude that the turn on is more 'stressful'.
Indeed, this is usually when filament bulbd fail.
: Say does Don Klipstein still lurk here? He may have some info on turn-
on failure.
http://donklipstein.com/
George H.
R. Mark Clayton
Oct 6, 2012, 1:23:04 PM10/6/12
to
"Phil Hobbs" <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote in message
news:MLqdnZyuL9Izje3N...@supernews.com...
SNIP
>>
>> Aren't the filaments welded to the elements at the ends? It would seem
>> that
>> this would cause a narrowing. ISTR most filaments broken near the
>> supports,
>> which would be counter to the hotter-in-the-middle theory.
>
> The feedthroughs are made of Dumet, which is basically 42Ni stainless with
> a borated copper coating to bind to the glass. It's much lower-melting
> than the tungsten, so spot-welding them together shouldn't affect the
> tungsten much.
Just crimped over AFAIK. Should work fine - the softer metal will cold form
>> Aren't the filaments welded to the elements at the ends? It would seem
>> that
>> this would cause a narrowing. ISTR most filaments broken near the
>> supports,
>> which would be counter to the hotter-in-the-middle theory.
>
> The feedthroughs are made of Dumet, which is basically 42Ni stainless with
> a borated copper coating to bind to the glass. It's much lower-melting
> than the tungsten, so spot-welding them together shouldn't affect the
> tungsten much.
around the tungsten see
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/08/Filament.jpg
>
> I've never seen one burn out that wasn't energized.
Steve Terry
Oct 6, 2012, 2:19:44 PM10/6/12
to
Solent radio on the net
http://www.ship-tracking.co.uk/Radio/radiopage.html
Steve Terry
--
Get a free GiffGaff PAYG Sim and £5 bonus after activation at:
http://giffgaff.com/orders/affiliate/gfourwwk
§ñühwö£f
Oct 6, 2012, 3:29:23 PM10/6/12
to
Phil Hobbs wrote:
cover. G00gle told me how. You lot are obviously quite useless.
<nods>
--
http://howlingforjustice.wordpress.com/
www.friendsofanimals.org |www.snuhwolf.9f.com|
> On 10/06/2012 12:51 PM, ���hw��f wrote:
>> Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>> [......]
>>>
>>> Stew Leonard's Espresso Roast, roasted fresh daily in sunny Yonkers.
>>> Best beans I've ever come across, and worth the trip. Always a crowd
>>> pleaser.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> Phil Hobbs
>>>
>> Sorry to hijack this thread but I have an actual electronics repair
>> question: how do I go about getting my old AIWA CX-NA10 stereo system to
>> read CD's again? Is the lazer bad? It detects the cd and spins up but
>> wont play it.
>>
>>
>>
> You're no fun anymore.
>
> Cheers
>
> Phil Hobbs
>
Uh huh. I fixed it somewhat by fiddling with the screw behind the back
>> Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>> [......]
>>>
>>> Stew Leonard's Espresso Roast, roasted fresh daily in sunny Yonkers.
>>> Best beans I've ever come across, and worth the trip. Always a crowd
>>> pleaser.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> Phil Hobbs
>>>
>> Sorry to hijack this thread but I have an actual electronics repair
>> question: how do I go about getting my old AIWA CX-NA10 stereo system to
>> read CD's again? Is the lazer bad? It detects the cd and spins up but
>> wont play it.
>>
>>
>>
> You're no fun anymore.
>
> Cheers
>
> Phil Hobbs
>
cover. G00gle told me how. You lot are obviously quite useless.
<nods>
--
http://howlingforjustice.wordpress.com/
www.friendsofanimals.org |www.snuhwolf.9f.com|
Geoffrey S. Mendelson
Oct 6, 2012, 3:34:04 PM10/6/12
to
Phil Hobbs wrote:
> Sounds like a bargain to me. Very few other organizations would leave
> money on the table like that. I sure wouldn't. Would you?
It depends upon wat you consider a fair price and what you want people to do.
> Sounds like a bargain to me. Very few other organizations would leave
> money on the table like that. I sure wouldn't. Would you?
If you want people from the US to NOT export cheap items then you keep your
postal rates high.
If you want everyone to have a small business selling items over the internet
then you keep your postal prices low.
> Plus they save on duty by claiming that everything is a gift. Such
> generous folks, those Chinese.
a gift and the price is low, then they can pass it without inspection, and
if it is inspected just look for the diamonds, guns, drugs, etc hidden
in it.
For example, just ordered about several each of 10 different items
(around 40 items in all), from a vendor in Hong Kong. If he sent it to a
US address and lists it as a gift, the US customs can do a quick inspection
if they do any at all.
If he declares each item, and they inspect the package, they have to figure
out which is which, measure and weigh them and ascertain that they are
what is claimed, and the weight matches.
In this case most of the items were some some sort of USB fob, so good luck.
> What treaties are those, and do they guarantee the same rates for everyone?
between signatories. Or in plain English, each country pays the other
the same rates, but are free to charge their internal customers anything
they want.
>
> Depends what's important to you, of course. Mostly when I'm in Europe I
> do my calling over wifi using UMA, so it costs the same as at home. But
> I only go there every couple of years.
charge you high rates for it.
Phil Hobbs
Oct 6, 2012, 4:26:47 PM10/6/12
to
On 10/06/2012 03:34 PM, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
> Phil Hobbs wrote:
>> Sounds like a bargain to me. Very few other organizations would leave
>> money on the table like that. I sure wouldn't. Would you?
>
> It depends upon wat you consider a fair price and what you want people to do.
> If you want people from the US to NOT export cheap items then you keep your
> postal rates high.
A fair price is what a willing buyer will pay in a competitive market.
> Phil Hobbs wrote:
>> Sounds like a bargain to me. Very few other organizations would leave
>> money on the table like that. I sure wouldn't. Would you?
>
> It depends upon wat you consider a fair price and what you want people to do.
> If you want people from the US to NOT export cheap items then you keep your
> postal rates high.
If you were a logistics company, or for that matter a unionized
proletarian, you charge what the traffic will bear. That works as long
as there's competition--the more the better in general. You can't keep
jacking up the price if your customers can just go down the street to
your competitor.
>
> If you want everyone to have a small business selling items over the internet
> then you keep your postal prices low.
subsidies except where there's a compelling interest at stake--for
instance the French pay more for food because they in effect subsidize
small farmers, in order to keep the life of rural France alive. I'm
quite fond of rural France, so I can understand their point.
Postal services? Well, sure, folks in the boonies need to be able to
send in their tax returns. ;)
>
>> Plus they save on duty by claiming that everything is a gift. Such
>> generous folks, those Chinese.
>
> The only gift is to the customs officers receiving the packages. If it is
> a gift and the price is low, then they can pass it without inspection, and
> if it is inspected just look for the diamonds, guns, drugs, etc hidden
> in it.
>
> For example, just ordered about several each of 10 different items
> (around 40 items in all), from a vendor in Hong Kong. If he sent it to a
> US address and lists it as a gift, the US customs can do a quick inspection
> if they do any at all.
>
> If he declares each item, and they inspect the package, they have to figure
> out which is which, measure and weigh them and ascertain that they are
> what is claimed, and the weight matches.
>
> In this case most of the items were some some sort of USB fob, so good luck.
>
>> What treaties are those, and do they guarantee the same rates for everyone?
>
> They are international postal treaties and the guarantee the same rates
> between signatories. Or in plain English, each country pays the other
> the same rates, but are free to charge their internal customers anything
> they want.
>
>>
>> Depends what's important to you, of course. Mostly when I'm in Europe I
>> do my calling over wifi using UMA, so it costs the same as at home. But
>> I only go there every couple of years.
>
> Assuming you can find WiFi. Some places think free wifi is a right, others
> charge you high rates for it.
That's in Flanders, Artois, and Florence, most recently. And anyway,
since I'm on vacation when I go there, I don't really want to be in
constant touch with home!
Michael A. Terrell
Oct 6, 2012, 4:59:29 PM10/6/12
to
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
>
> In article <epudnWDGL-LfiO3N...@supernews.com>,
> Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
> > > The Americans do seem generally to be used to sending a lot by courier
> > > when we would just put in the post. Tending to happen in the UK also
> > > even though the Royal Mail / Parcelforce often give a better service
> > > and of course do not charge extra to send further. There has been a
> > > big campaign in the North of Scotland about companies charging extra
> > > for many postcode areas.
>
> > That's mostly a business etiquette thing, I think. Sending somebody a
> > bunch of business documents in the snail mail sort of says that their
> > input isn't that urgent. Letter mail here is also very secure IME.
>
> Fine if 'they' want to do this and pay for it. My complaint is buying
> goods from the US where I'm paying the P&P and not having the choice of a
> reasonably priced service. Why would I want to pay in some cases more than
> the value of the goods for postage, if I'm in no rush to receive them?
profit group had a post office refuse their business, because of the
volume. they had to get a politician involved, since USPS is the only
way they are allowed to ship the gifts to our troops. Over $100,000 a
year in postal fees, and were told to go away. By law, they can't ship
a box full of stuff to a base. Each package requires a separate customs
form to be filled out by hand.
UPS and other shippers park an empty semi trailer at the dock of
large customers, and haul it directly to the hub. That entire process
can be automated.
John Fields
Oct 6, 2012, 5:07:32 PM10/6/12
to
On Sat, 06 Oct 2012 13:29:23 -0600, ���hw��f <snuh...@netscape.net>
wrote:
>Phil Hobbs wrote:
Hardly surprising, since your query would have more appropriately been
directed to sci.electronics.repair.
--
JF
wrote:
>Phil Hobbs wrote:
>> On 10/06/2012 12:51 PM, ���hw��f wrote:
>>> Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>>> [......]
>>>>
>>>> Stew Leonard's Espresso Roast, roasted fresh daily in sunny Yonkers.
>>>> Best beans I've ever come across, and worth the trip. Always a crowd
>>>> pleaser.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>>> Phil Hobbs
>>>>
>>> Sorry to hijack this thread but I have an actual electronics repair
>>> question: how do I go about getting my old AIWA CX-NA10 stereo system to
>>> read CD's again? Is the lazer bad? It detects the cd and spins up but
>>> wont play it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> You're no fun anymore.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Phil Hobbs
>>
>
>Uh huh. I fixed it somewhat by fiddling with the screw behind the back
>cover. G00gle told me how. You lot are obviously quite useless.
>
><nods>
---
>>> Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>>> [......]
>>>>
>>>> Stew Leonard's Espresso Roast, roasted fresh daily in sunny Yonkers.
>>>> Best beans I've ever come across, and worth the trip. Always a crowd
>>>> pleaser.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>>> Phil Hobbs
>>>>
>>> Sorry to hijack this thread but I have an actual electronics repair
>>> question: how do I go about getting my old AIWA CX-NA10 stereo system to
>>> read CD's again? Is the lazer bad? It detects the cd and spins up but
>>> wont play it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> You're no fun anymore.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Phil Hobbs
>>
>
>Uh huh. I fixed it somewhat by fiddling with the screw behind the back
>cover. G00gle told me how. You lot are obviously quite useless.
>
><nods>
Hardly surprising, since your query would have more appropriately been
directed to sci.electronics.repair.
--
JF
Jamie
Oct 6, 2012, 5:24:56 PM10/6/12
to
§ñühwö£f wrote:
> Phil Hobbs wrote:
>
> Phil Hobbs wrote:
>
>> On 10/06/2012 12:51 PM, §ñühwö£f wrote:
>>
>>> Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>>
>>>> [......]
>>>>
>>>> Stew Leonard's Espresso Roast, roasted fresh daily in sunny Yonkers.
>>>> Best beans I've ever come across, and worth the trip. Always a crowd
>>>> pleaser.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>>> Phil Hobbs
>>>>
>>> Sorry to hijack this thread but I have an actual electronics repair
>>> question: how do I go about getting my old AIWA CX-NA10 stereo system to
>>> read CD's again? Is the lazer bad? It detects the cd and spins up but
>>> wont play it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> You're no fun anymore.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Phil Hobbs
>>
>
> Uh huh. I fixed it somewhat by fiddling with the screw behind the back
> cover. G00gle told me how. You lot are obviously quite useless.
>
> <nods>
>
>
Yes we are. Hope to see you soon.
>>
>>> Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>>
>>>> [......]
>>>>
>>>> Stew Leonard's Espresso Roast, roasted fresh daily in sunny Yonkers.
>>>> Best beans I've ever come across, and worth the trip. Always a crowd
>>>> pleaser.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>>> Phil Hobbs
>>>>
>>> Sorry to hijack this thread but I have an actual electronics repair
>>> question: how do I go about getting my old AIWA CX-NA10 stereo system to
>>> read CD's again? Is the lazer bad? It detects the cd and spins up but
>>> wont play it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> You're no fun anymore.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Phil Hobbs
>>
>
> Uh huh. I fixed it somewhat by fiddling with the screw behind the back
> cover. G00gle told me how. You lot are obviously quite useless.
>
> <nods>
>
>
Jamie
David Woolley
Oct 6, 2012, 5:29:52 PM10/6/12
to
Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
> Phil Hobbs wrote:
> Phil Hobbs wrote:
>> Plus they save on duty by claiming that everything is a gift. Such
>> generous folks, those Chinese.
>
> The only gift is to the customs officers receiving the packages. If it is
> a gift and the price is low, then they can pass it without inspection, and
> if it is inspected just look for the diamonds, guns, drugs, etc hidden
> in it.
>
For import to the UK, declaring it as a gift increases the value that is
>> generous folks, those Chinese.
>
> The only gift is to the customs officers receiving the packages. If it is
> a gift and the price is low, then they can pass it without inspection, and
> if it is inspected just look for the diamonds, guns, drugs, etc hidden
> in it.
>
allowed before VAT and duty is imposed, so, when used for items of low
value, but more than £15 (at the moment) including postage, it defrauds
the government of revenue. These are not, I believe free allowances,
but rather values below which it is considered not worth recovering
duty. With the Royal Mail, it also triggers a customs processing charge.
Jasen Betts
Oct 6, 2012, 7:17:04 PM10/6/12
to
On 2012-10-05, George Herold <ghe...@teachspin.com> wrote:
>
> I've no problem with your marquee story. Sometimes folk-tales about
> rocks falling from the sky are correct.
> The data point I offer to Phil is that bulbs fail when you turn them
> on. I see no reason why that can't be 'played backwards'. There most
> be some GE, Philips, (other) report that documents turn on failure.
I recall a few yeas back someone had long-life bulbs with an NTC
series resistor built into the base.
Old toob tellys always had an NTC in series with the filament supply.
--
⚂⚃ 100% natural
--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---
>
> I've no problem with your marquee story. Sometimes folk-tales about
> rocks falling from the sky are correct.
> The data point I offer to Phil is that bulbs fail when you turn them
> on. I see no reason why that can't be 'played backwards'. There most
> be some GE, Philips, (other) report that documents turn on failure.
I recall a few yeas back someone had long-life bulbs with an NTC
series resistor built into the base.
Old toob tellys always had an NTC in series with the filament supply.
--
⚂⚃ 100% natural
--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---
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