TV shows stripes/lines at the top of the screen
-Almazick-
I have Panasonic TV about 1 year old. It was working great til a few weeks
ago, now it shows stripes/lines at the top of the screen that used to get
better after tv was getting warm. Now I got more stripes/lines at the top of
the screen and they don't dissapear even when tv gets warm. I removed the tv
rear cover and found only 2 knobs for Focus and Screen and they won't solve
the problem. I tried to adjust Var Resistor and again nothing. What can I
do? What should I check for? Please help.
Thanks,
Almazick
www.tvnorthshore.com
Tech Data
"What should I check for?" The nearest servicer in the Yellow Pages and
ask them what they'd charge to correct this. If the first and only
thing you try is to turn things that move to repair this, then guiding
you to the probable circuit would most likely turn the tv into dumpster
fodder. That's a nice product. Spend a little and get it fixed right.
-Almazick-
help and to point me to the right direction. If I wanted to give it to
service I would done it a long time ago but that's no fun at all. That's
the idea to learn it and do it yourself. Also If I had no idea what I was
doing I wouldn't even touch it but I've done in the past couple of projects
creating PCB and making IC to work. It's all about fun and enjoying what
you are doing. This is diy electronics repair forum and people expect to
get help to solve the problem not to create another one just like you
advised it and please next time stay on the subject and don't create another
one.
"Tech Data" <tvd...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1150012923.6...@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Arfa Daily
"-Almazick-" <Alma...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:JJqdnfQ8UbR7TRbZ...@comcast.com...
> Thanks for your response but it's not what I'm looking for. I'm looking
> for help and to point me to the right direction. If I wanted to give it
> to service I would done it a long time ago but that's no fun at all.
> That's the idea to learn it and do it yourself. Also If I had no idea
> what I was doing I wouldn't even touch it but I've done in the past couple
> of projects creating PCB and making IC to work. It's all about fun and
> enjoying what you are doing. This is diy electronics repair forum and
> people expect to get help to solve the problem not to create another one
> just like you advised it and please next time stay on the subject and
> don't create another one.
>
>
>
that the advice that you were given by Tech Data, in this case, was valid
for your own safety, if nothing else. Modern TV sets are DANGEROUS items -
probably more so than their predecessors. They all utilise switch mode power
supplies, and if you do not understand these, or work with them on a regular
basis, and have a proper transformer-isolated safety supply to run them
from, then they can be lethal - and I mean that by the most death-causing
literal definition that you can find.
Creating PCBs, and making ICs work do not, unfortunately, qualify you to be
poking around safely in the back of a TV. Even twiddling the screen pot,
without knowing what it does, or how to readjust it correctly so that you
don't have a useless CRT on your hands in a couple of months, to add further
to your woes, indicates that you should not be attempting this.
Whilst this is a DIY repair group, for some types of repair, a degree of
expertise is still required, and in our opinion, you simply don't have the
necessary expertise to be attempting a repair such as this. Those of us who
do, would be irresponsible to advise you to try, for your own safety. The
advice you were given was good, and I think the same as most of us would
have given - take it to a reputable repair shop. If you really don't want to
spend the money on it, and it really is just a year old, then pick up the
phone and bleat long and hard to Panasonic's customer liason - you might
just get a result, and live long enough to enjoy it ...
Also, if you wouldn't mind, please don't top-post. It makes threads
difficult to follow once they get above a couple long.
Arfa
>
>
>
>
Tech Data
-Almazick- wrote:
> Thanks for your response but it's not what I'm looking for. I'm looking for
> help and to point me to the right direction. If I wanted to give it to
> service I would done it a long time ago but that's no fun at all. That's
> the idea to learn it and do it yourself. Also If I had no idea what I was
> doing I wouldn't even touch it but I've done in the past couple of projects
> creating PCB and making IC to work. It's all about fun and enjoying what
> you are doing. This is diy electronics repair forum and people expect to
> get help to solve the problem not to create another one just like you
> advised it and please next time stay on the subject and don't create another
> one.
Wow, thanks for putting me in my place. Did you realize that you posted
twice and, by omission, indicate that you think Panasonic made only one
television, ever, and you own it? If you expect someone to lead you to
a magic fix, you might want to post a model number or, at the very
least, a color.
Sam Goldwasser
The problem is likely a bad capacitor in the vertical deflection output.
But I agree - get it fixed by a professional and DON'T touch any of the
internal adjustments! This is a circuit failure.
--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html
Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name AND either lasers or electronics is included in the
subject line. Or, you can contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.
Dave D
> for help and to point me to the right direction. If I wanted to give it
> to service I would done it a long time ago but that's no fun at all.
> That's the idea to learn it and do it yourself. Also If I had no idea
> what I was doing I wouldn't even touch it but I've done in the past couple
> of projects creating PCB and making IC to work. It's all about fun and
> enjoying what you are doing. This is diy electronics repair forum and
> people expect to get help to solve the problem not to create another one
> just like you advised it and please next time stay on the subject and
> don't create another one.
>
If you'd provided a model number and resisted the temptation to indulge in
dangerous buffoonery, then maybe the *group* (this is *not* a forum!) would
have considered you had enough credibility to undertake a repair. However,
by your actions you have demonstrated that the only successful undertaking
will be your subsequent funeral.
You clearly do not understand televisions or their circuits and adjustments,
and I'm certain few people would recommend you learn the craft with a good,
newish TV when they know full well you may injure/kill yourself or wreck the
TV. Seriously- anyone who thinks the 'focus' control will cure lines at the
top of the screen has no business inside a TV set- even my 13 year old
daughter knows what 'focus' means ;-)
Furthermore, a basic rule of repair is that adjusting things when a fault
arises is a no-no. Apart from the simple fact that it rarely helps to effect
a good repair, it will at best mask the fault, and at worst make a simple
repair into a realignment job which increases the total repair cost. Worse
still you randomly adjusted settings you didn't understand- what did you
hope to achieve? Would you randomly adjust things on your car's carburettor
if the tail light developed a fault?
If you want to learn TV repair, I recommend you get a good book and
understand how they work before you go inside and practice, you and the TV
will live longer.
The answer to your question is electrolytic capacitors in the vertical
deflection circuit as Sam stated- about 99% certainty. It's not an expensive
job and straightforward enough for a half decent tech, so I recommend you
pay to get it done.
As for wanting to fix it yourself as part of a learning process, learning
what exactly? You had to come here to ask where the fault was, so the hard
part has been answered for you. The remainder of the job is soldering in
replacements, far better you practice soldering on a scrap PCB than a year
old TV.
Good luck with your TV, and stay alive!
Dave
-Almazick-
not think it was very important just because it is a general problem. I
spent all night reading tv problems and found similar problem with the same
answer. I was wondering where can I get Service Manual for Panasonic
CT-24SL14J or just a schematic to find bad capacitor in the vertical
deflection? I checked IC yesterday but I couldn't find a bad capacitor by
an eye. Regarding safety I do understand it is very dangerous to put your
fingers inside of the tv because of the High Voltage unless your discharge
capacitors or follow safety code. I learned my lesson a long time ago. I
do know what I'm doing and it is not the first time. I also understand that
I don't have enough experience but again it is all about learning.
"Sam Goldwasser" <s...@saul.cis.upenn.edu> wrote in message
news:6w1wtvd...@saul.cis.upenn.edu...
Franc Zabkar
<Alma...@comcast.net> put finger to keyboard and composed:
>Thanks a lot for the answer. Sorry for not posting the model because I did
>not think it was very important just because it is a general problem. I
>spent all night reading tv problems and found similar problem with the same
>answer. I was wondering where can I get Service Manual for Panasonic
>CT-24SL14J or just a schematic to find bad capacitor in the vertical
>deflection? I checked IC yesterday but I couldn't find a bad capacitor by
>an eye.
Look for an IC on a heatsink, possibly an LAxxxx type. Then download
its datasheet and study the application circuit therein. You will see
several electrolytic capacitors. You may as well change all of them -
they are cheap enough.
BTW, in Australia you would be entitled to a free warranty repair on
the grounds that your one year old (?) TV is not of merchantable
quality. This is despite the fact that the manufacturer's voluntary
warranty is only 1 year.
- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.
Dave D
> Thanks a lot for the answer. Sorry for not posting the model because I
> did not think it was very important just because it is a general problem.
> I spent all night reading tv problems and found similar problem with the
> same answer. I was wondering where can I get Service Manual for Panasonic
> CT-24SL14J or just a schematic to find bad capacitor in the vertical
> deflection? I checked IC yesterday but I couldn't find a bad capacitor by
> an eye.
By eye? No good in this case. Testing with an ESR meter or substitution is
the way to do it. If in doubt, just change all the electrolytic capacitors
in the vertical deflection area, they aren't expensive parts and it could
prevent further trouble.
Dave
-Almazick-
In datasheet it shows 3 caps in example schematic. I'll try to replace on
tuesday some of my caps in my tv. Really bad that I don't have ESR meter
should make my job a lot easier :) again thanks a lot.
"Franc Zabkar" <fza...@iinternode.on.net> wrote in message
news:lo3p82h3rsnea9f9i...@4ax.com...
JANA
area. It is impossible to guess to the exact components. There are many
involved. You will require at the very least, a DVM, ESR meter, and the
service manuals for your set. If the problem gets complicated, you will need
a scope. Also, it is an asset to have the proper training in electronics,
and in TV servicing.
Your best solution is to bring the set to a service centre and have them
service it for you. There are also serious safety issues when servicing TV
sets and electrical appliances.
--
JANA
_____
"Tech Data" <tvd...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1150012923.6...@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
-Almazick- wrote:
JW
wrote in Message id: <JJqdnfQ8UbR7TRbZ...@comcast.com>:
> Also If I had no idea what I was
>doing I wouldn't even touch it
Then stop touching it already.
Electromotive Guru
can say through all my experience that is is definitely a bad
capacitor either in the vertical or power supply area. No cap should
be getting too hot, so this may be a symptom of the main voiltage
bias being out of range. Look inwside the back cover for test-points
and check that main B+ voltage is within 5% of spec (if given).
So the guy wants to learn, noone becomes an expert from a book alone.
If any of you people flaming were experts, you should already know
that. While I agree that diagnosis comes before adjustments, and that
some skill is required, he IS NOT FIXING YOUR EQUIPMENT, so get over
it. If they do something wrong, it's on them, not you, in case you
forgot....
Sheesh, seems people here are a bit too uppity about things that they
have made into their own personal problem. Quit shutting out someone
with an idea, everyone has to make mistakes to learn. You could all
suggest politely that the focus control will not fix it. For those
who want to know, I am self-taught on many a different area that you
will never understand, and know more in many than all the book-smarts
in the world.
8 years of college cannot teach what I have learned in as little as
five seconds...
Arfa Daily
"Electromotive Guru" <Promet...@gmail-dot-com.no-spam.invalid> wrote in
message news:448e6aa5$0$16332$892e...@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net...
There is a difference between helping someone to learn safely, and being
irresponsible. By saying that he had attempted to 'repair' his faulty
television set, by twiddling controls whose function he understood nothing
about, the OP demonstrated that he was not competent to be inside a
television set with safety. Now you may think that is ok, but I think that
if those of us who are properly qualified, and whose collective wisdom
exceeds yours by many times, were to recommend that he continued to poke
around inside an item of equipment that REALLY COULD KILL OR SERIOUSLY
INJURE him, this would be irresponsible, rather than helpful.
For sure, we all learn by making mistakes, but you're not gonna learn a lot,
if your first bad one puts you in the mortuary. In order to learn repair of
TV sets, and similar equipment, safely, you need at least a mentor, who is
fully qualified, and standing by your side watching your every move. You
absolutely MUST understand the safety angles of what you are doing,
otherwise, with a couple of repair successes under your belt, you will start
to become a self-proclaimed self-taught *expert* who then goes on to carry
out dangerous work on other people's equipment.
Whilst it is possible for qualified people to learn new techniques and hints
and tips from groups such as this, it is not possible for total amateurs to
learn arts such as TV repair, safely. Would you seriously suggest that
someone should try SCUBA diving, or sky diving, or mountain climbing or
racecar driving, without having been practically taught by someone who knows
how to do it safely ? No, of course not, and anyone who believes seriously
that electricity is not equally dangerous, is a fool.
No one has been *flamed* on here. Perhaps one or two of the comments were a
little less than polite, but if you think that is flaming, then you have
lived a sheltered internet life. Everyone from amateurs to professionals are
welcome on here, and will normally recive good and valid advice, but don't
expect those of us who take a responsible attitude to safety, to encourage
either those who don't, or those who have no knowledge of such matters.
Arfa
Dave D
"Arfa Daily" <arfa....@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:3zvjg.17108$qD.1...@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...
>
<snip>
> Now you may think that is ok, but I think that if those of us who are
> properly qualified, and whose collective wisdom exceeds yours by many
> times, were to recommend that he continued to poke around inside an item
> of equipment that REALLY COULD KILL OR SERIOUSLY INJURE him, this would be
> irresponsible, rather than helpful.
>
Now now, Arfa! 'Electromotive Guru' is obviously someone the group should
look up to. After all, he advises someone who knows so little about basic
physics that he doesn't know what a focus adjustment does, to, and I quote:
"Look inwside the back cover for test-points and check that main B+ voltage
is within 5% of spec" (because) "this may be a symptom of the main voiltage
bias being out of range"
Obviously good advice ;-) He also thinks it's good advice for a non-savvy
consumer to take the back off his set and poke around inside so he can
'learn', without having even the most basic knowledge of electronics.
By his reasoning- my 13 year old daughter knows what focus means, and it's
not just a car made by Ford, so she must be even more qualified than the OP
to poke around inside a TV! Next time the TV breaks I might give her a
service manual and a soldering iron and let her fix it for me. It's a nice
RPTV so plenty of room for her to crawl inside and measure the 'main bias
voltage'. I wouldn't want to deprive her of a learning experience after all!
Dave
-Almazick-
I see your point regarding your 13 year old daughter knows what focus means
and that's good but you need to learn how to read first before you flame
anyone. If you read my original post you can find "I removed the tv rear
I was tweaking them or did not know what it was. What I meant that I found
only 2 knobs and it won't solve the problem because they have nothing to do
with the problem I had (vertical deflection output). In older tv's used to
be knobs behind the cover or small holes for vertical and horizontal
adjustments. You assumed that I did not know what focus is and made
something out of nothing. Anyway let's just stop arguing and stop putting
people down. If people ask for advice, let's just give them because you
don't know what they know and their experiences. Just like Electromotive
Guru said, him and me are self-taught on many a different area that you
won't have any idea how to fix it. In some areas I'm more stronger and some
weaker and when I ask people for advice who knows more than me I don't
really want to listen flames because I can bet you ask questions in other
boards and you don't want people flaming you. I used to be on boards a long
time ago helping people with cars, satellite dishes, operating systems,
computer hardware and web designers because I'm good at it but I never made
any flames. Don't like the question just go to the next one, simply ignore
them. People always make a mistake with a bad description just like I did
but it doesn't mean you are better than me because you really don't know me.
On the other hand I fixed the tv and it only took me about 30 minutes. As
you can see people it takes less time to fix something with a proper answer
than reading all that flaming and your bad opinions which makes me sick. If
you don't like something it doesn't mean you have to start flaming people
just ignore and go to the next post. It makes our life's a lot easier. A
big thanks to people who pointed me to the right direction: Sam Goldwasser,
Franc Zabkar, Jana and Electromotive Guru.
"Dave D" <dav...@dave-d.com> wrote in message
news:G8KdnWmLCtB...@pipex.net...
Dave D
> Hello Dave D,
> I see your point regarding your 13 year old daughter knows what focus
> means and that's good but you need to learn how to read first before you
> flame anyone. If you read my original post you can find "I removed the tv
> rear cover and found only 2 knobs for Focus and Screen and they won't
> solve the problem."
<snip>
OK, I accept I have misunderstood you, but please understand that "and they
won't solve the problem." can also mean you tried them to no avail. Damn
the English language, ambiguity is too common!
I am sorry you didn't consider my advice to be helpful, and indeed
considered it to be flaming. However, we are not mind readers. How was I to
know you were techinically minded? You certainly didn't give that impression
from your OP which was vague and admitted lack of knowledge of the working
of TVs, and clearly I'm not the only one who thought that.
Generally, if people come here with intelligent questions and can provide
troubleshooting info, they will get intelligent answers. If they come here
and give the impression that they know nothing (as you did- you said you
wanted to learn) and ask questions like 'my TV went funny, which part do I
change?' (extreme example) then they will often be disappointed.
If you read back over my posts you'll find that in actual fact I did give an
answer, despite what you think. Furthermore, though it wasn't what you
wanted to hear, my advice to stay away from TVs until you get up to speed on
LV equipment was sound and I had your interests at heart. I could have said
'dive in with both hands while it's on, and make sure you're a bit damp',
but no- I was simply concerned for your safety. The advice was given based
on the impression of your abilities *you* created here, and I stand by it.
Anyhoo, no offence intended- it was just banter. Good luck with the repair.
Dave
Papa_J
collected or is it still broken.
PLEASE!! Forget or forgive the flack and debris??
Many of the folk here in this N/G have been around for a fairly long period
of time doing these repairs, inclusive of Sam, and many others.
Their main concern is for the SAFETY of the technicians, even SAM posts that
information plainly, at the beginning of his very good instructional web
sites.
After that fact then the appropriate data is attempted to be transferred via
this means, some if it is miss-interpreted, some if it is
miss-representative of the actual symptom(s). However all of it is normally
meant as trying to assist another technician to do their actual, hands on
repairs.
Ocassionally we all share our "Opinions", and we all acknowledge what the
average one's worth (IMHO).
Again: My specific question is: Do you have the set repaired? If so than you
have received assistance appropiat to your quest. If not, then more through
diagnostics may be required.
Good Luck!news:NPWdnfq3gL-VKw3Z...@pipex.net...
-Almazick-
datasheet then found similar schematic for my tv. Changed 1 capacitor
turned on the tv and everything was working.
"Papa_J" <plot...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:VuidnTeXfdd1lQnZ...@comcast.com...
Electromotive Guru
Now you may think that is ok, but I think that
> if those of us who are properly qualified, and whose collective
wisdom
> exceeds yours by many times, were to recommend that he continued to
poke
> around inside an item of equipment that REALLY COULD KILL OR
SERIOUSLY
> INJURE him, this would be irresponsible, rather than helpful.
Kiddo, you don't even know what and how many fields I am skilled and
trained in, nor to what degree, so don't profess yourself to be some
sort of ultimate guru. Secondly I was not encouraging someone to take
a risk beyond their capability. All I had said that people could have
been more polite in their responses.
I've been around prolly more than you and live anything but a
sheltered internet life. Get over yourself and just try to be more
civil. That is all I was saying, if you had managed to read a little
more thoroughly.....
Arfa Daily
"Electromotive Guru" <Promet...@gmail-dot-com.no-spam.invalid> wrote in
not professing myself to be some kind of ultimate guru. " Those of *us* " is
plural. " Collective " means all together.
So what I was saying was that if you take the 20 or so professional
electronic engineers, who are properly qualified in this field, and who
regularly offer help to people on here, assume them arbitrarily to have each
been at it for 20 years, that gives a " collective wisdom " in the subject,
of some 400 years. Now unless you are planning to defy nature in some way,
and get to age 400, you are never going to get to that level on your own.
It is true that I do not know how many fields you are trained and skilled
in, but by your own admission, although you consider yourself to be some
kind of expert in this field, you are not properly trained, having learnt
what you do know by whatever method you have for self teaching. I don't care
if you took a postal degree in it, and became Dr Fixit, unless you have had
proper practical training in the subject, and most importantly, its safety
angles, by someone properly qualified himself, I don't consider you to be
sufficiently trained or skilled in the subject, to offer advice about
potentially dangerous work to the electronically naiive. You are completely
at odds with those of us on here who are qualified, when you claim to be
able to do so.
You may not think that you were encouraging someone to take a risk beyond
their capability, and perhaps ultimately, you weren't, but from the
statements that the OP originally made, it appeared to the rest of us that
he was not sufficiently savvy in the subject to prevent him possibly being a
danger to himself. Others, definitely not capable, may read your rubbishing
of our posts, and actually believe you. I don't know how much you actually
know about switch mode power supplies, but they really are potentially VERY
dangerous in unskilled hands.
I did actually agree that some of the responses had been less than polite,
( my post of the 13th, above ) but disputed that anyone had been " flamed ",
and I still dispute that, and I stand by what I said, that if you think that
is flaming, you have never seen it in reality. Try looking up one Mr Andre
Jute, a self proclaimed audio expert. You will find many posts of his on
Usenet. Now that guy has flaming down to a fine art.
So please, don't assume anything about how long I've been around, don't call
me kiddo, don't question my properly trained skills in electronic service
and safety, don't ask me to " get over myself " and don't ask me to try to
be more civil. I have never been anything other than polite or civil to you
or any of the others.
Arfa
electr...@yahoo.com
Not everyone that asks for an opinion or advice can gracefully and
"politely" accept wheat they hear particuarlly if they were looking for
justification for a unadviseable or unwise action.
As Arfa Daily indicated, there is a lot of collective wisdom on this
group.... if you don't like the answers then don't ask the
questions...... in other words:
Crawl back into the hole you have been hiding in and Buzz Off Bucko....
and definately "get over YOURSELF", Mr Electromotive Guru.
electricitym
- - - - - - -
Sofie
You are the one that by your own screen name professes to be a guru.....
....you need to get over your self.
Don't so quickly discard the advice you get here. If you don't like what
you hear, then don't bother posting and don't assult the regulars on this
group who volunteer their unpaid time to help folks who genuinely solicit
repair help and suggestions;.and I dare say that most of the regulars here
know a hell of a lot more about television repairs than you do.
Just GO AWAY.....
-
>
Dave D
>
> It is true that I do not know how many fields you are trained and skilled
> in, but by your own admission, although you consider yourself to be some
> kind of expert in this field, you are not properly trained, having learnt
> what you do know by whatever method you have for self teaching. I don't
> care if you took a postal degree in it, and became Dr Fixit, unless you
> have had proper practical training in the subject, and most importantly,
> its safety angles, by someone properly qualified himself, I don't consider
> you to be sufficiently trained or skilled in the subject, to offer advice
> about potentially dangerous work to the electronically naiive. You are
> completely at odds with those of us on here who are qualified, when you
> claim to be able to do so.
>
Well, I have 30 years experience in various aspects of electronics. I have
worked in the design, repair, construction and modification of electronic
circuits. However, in those 30 years I have not received any formal training
of any significance, yet have been called upon to train others.
In your post you have IMHO managed to disrespect possibly half the group or
more, many of them knowledgeable amateurs/hobbyists or 'unqualified' but
talented pros who have no formal training- well done.
It's ironic that my opinion on this thread echos your own sentiments
exactly, yet you can be so sneering and condescending to people like me who
don't hold the same precious piece of paper as you do. I have always
respected and generally agreed with your opinions on this group, so I am
rather disappointed with your post.
Sorry, Arfa, but that's just how I feel. Did you really mean what you said
or was it posted in haste as a kneejerk response to a post you perhaps found
provocative? I sincerely hope it's the latter.
Dave
electr...@yahoo.com
I have read and re-read Arfa's and your posts and I can not, for the
life of me, see how you or anyone else could be offended by Arfa's
comments.
Your "practical" experience and years of "practical" learning can many
times beat the best formal schooling. Frankly, the best techs I
personallly know and respect actually have a combination of both types
of training. Don't let yourself be intimitated by the words of
others, you know what you know and have confidence in your knowledge
but also know your limitations.... I think Clint Eastwood coined that
phrase.
electricitym
- - - -
snipped:
> "Arfa Daily" <arfa....@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
Arfa Daily
I am sorry that my response to Mr Electromotive Guru, has caused you
offence. It certainly wasn't intended to. To answer your basic question ;
no, it was not a kneejerk reaction. It was a considered response to what I
felt to be an immature and unwarranted pop at me personally. As I am really
sure that you of all people know, I am not given to kneejerk responses. For
sure, occasionally I get annoyed with the odd knob-head on here, and I might
well post a sarcastic response, but it's quite clear that I am doing that. I
choose my words carefully, and generally, I mean what I say, although I will
accept that sometimes, such things as cultural differences, may skew the
meaning to some readers. I speak american fairly well, as I go there quite a
lot, and I am aware that in many areas of america, very literal meanings are
taken from statements, that may have been intended as being rather more
oblique, so I try to avoid colloquial stuff, for that reason.
So, let's try to be a bit more clear on what I'm saying, for everyone's
benefit. I think a lot of the problem here is semantics. When I'm saying "
qualified ", some - including yourself - are taking it that I mean having a
piece of paper to say that you can do the job. Although in general, with
dangerous jobs, I do consider this to be the case, it has to be tempered
with common sense. If, like you, a person has been in the job, and making a
proper living from it, for 30 years, then a degree of ' qualification ' must
be accepted. I would be willing to bet that somewhere in the dim distant
past, someone taught you at least the basics of personal safety when working
with electricity, and how to carry out a repair in a way that was safe to
the public.
I actually know many engineers that have no paper, but learnt their trade
many years ago by a combination of mentoring and book reading and doing the
work. I would not consider them to be unqualified any more than you, and
would trust them to give out good safe advice. On the other hand, I also
know many ' gifted amateurs ' who sell insurance or build boats or whatever
during the day, and could hold a converstion with you about electronics, and
sound very knowledgeable. However, I would not consider them to be qualified
to be giving out good safe information on dangerous items such as switch
mode power supplies.
I think that for the most part, the people who post questions on here, and
the lurkers, would accept this, and I would be surprised if they would
consider that I had disrespected them, as you say. I do not consider that
anything I said was "condescending" or "sneering", and by the same token
that you say that you have previously respected and agreed with what I have
said, and are now ' rather disappointed ', I feel that I have to echo that
feeling back at you, as I think that your choice of words is ill considered,
and I do feel personally affronted by them
Just as a matter of interest, based on posts that you have previously made,
if someone asked me to put a name to the 20 or so posters on here that I
considered 'qualified' to give valid and safe information, your name would
have been right up there with them ...
As I'm sure that you realise, if you stop and think about it, I have never
been one to try to cause offence to anyone on here. I have contributed to
this, and other groups, under various nics, for many years. Like you, and
others on here, I have very many years experience in various aspects of
electronic service work, and I honestly believe that it is my duty to try to
help others to benefit from that experience, and become better, safer
engineers - both amateur when appropriate repairs are being attempted, and
fellow professionals when they're in trouble - and to that end, I willingly
and freely give my time to the group, as I'm sure, do you. However, I will
not lie down and take personal attacks from people like Mr Electromotive
Guru who, no matter what he might say to the contrary, does not *appear*
'qualified' to give out safe information. I base this belief on statements
that he has made in his posts, that have also been picked up by others, that
no person operating within the electronics business, with either paper or
life qualification, would actually make.
These are just my personal beliefs, and I stand by them. I do not expect
you, or anyone else, to accept them unquestioningly, as any kind of ' guru
pronouncement ', but neither do I expect them to just be dismissed out of
hand.
I have no desire to fall out with anyone on here, and if I have caused
offence to anyone, then I am sincerely sorry. However, if anyone insists on
being offended, then sobeit. I hope this clears up any misunderstandings,
and makes my position perfectly clear for the future. ;~}
Arfa
Dave D
<snip>
Hi Arfa,
OK, I've been a shit, I'm sorry.
It was this which drew my attention-
"unless you have had
proper practical training in the subject, and most importantly, its safety
angles, by someone properly qualified himself, I don't consider you to be
sufficiently trained or skilled in the subject, to offer advice about
potentially dangerous work to the electronically naiive. You are completely
at odds with those of us on here who are qualified, when you claim to be
able to do so."
I fully appreciate that no offence was intended, but re-reading this I still
see it as being open to the interpretation of casting self taught people in
a less than favourable light. However- you are Arfa Daily and I do
misinterpret people occasionally! If you say it was not intended that way I
accept I am wrong and being over sensitive, your word is enough for me.
Incidentally, no cultural differences here as fas as I'm aware- we're fellow
Limeys if I'm not mistaken?
I'm sorry if my words offended you, I really mean that. They weren't meant
to offend at all- but I can see I was rather, erm, 'direct'. My
disappointment was that it was you who said what at the time I thought you
meant, many other people would have gone unnoticed as I would have had no
expectations if you see what I mean. However, I withdraw my comments
entirely- I have got hold of the wrong end of the stick here, my fault not
yours.
As for falling out, that is the last thing on my mind I can assure you. I'm
a bit infamous amongst friends and family for calling a spade a spade
(though sometimes like in this case I call a spade a ham sandwich!) and I
don't mince my words which can get me into bother, but it is just my way, I
don't mean to come across as nasty. I also sometimes post after alcohol,
(check the time of posting ;-)) which kind of dulls the specific brains
cells (I have some-honest!) which deal with self-control, interpretation and
context ;-)
I do hope you can excuse me and forget about this, good people are often too
scarce on Usenet, you're one of them in my book and I'm certain others feel
the same.
Best Regards,
Dave
Dave D
<electr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1151124151.5...@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Dave D:
> I have read and re-read Arfa's and your posts and I can not, for the
> life of me, see how you or anyone else could be offended by Arfa's
> comments.
> Your "practical" experience and years of "practical" learning can many
> times beat the best formal schooling. Frankly, the best techs I
> personallly know and respect actually have a combination of both types
> of training. Don't let yourself be intimitated by the words of
> others, you know what you know and have confidence in your knowledge
> but also know your limitations.... I think Clint Eastwood coined that
> phrase.
That's fair comment. On reflection I was rather hasty and abrupt with Arfa,
and he didn't deserve it. My mistake, apology given.
Dave
Arfa Daily
All accepted unreservedly. I can see where you are coming from on the
self-taught angle. I don't have any basic beef with self-taught people, and
I'm sure that very many who post on here to solicit help, fall into that
category. I would state again that not having formal qualifications, does
not preclude the possibility of someone being qualified to hand out valid
advice. I do, however, draw the line, where a person who is an amateur in
this particular field, considers himself to be qualified to advise a person
with little knowledge, on how to carry out work on dangerous equipment, with
scant attention to safety, and indeed to make light of safety advice given
by people who are genuinely qualified by virtue of either formal
examination, or long service in the trade.
For sure, sometimes this will catch people who are genuinely good safe
amateurs, but they are, I feel, in the minority.
Anyways, I guess we all understand one another's point of view now, and we
can get on and back to where we were. To anyone who has been offended by my
point of view, don't be. No offence is intended, and unless anyone else
wants to take me to task, I don't think that there's any further virtue in
pursuing it. d;~)
Arfa
Dave D
>
>>
>
> All accepted unreservedly.
Thanks, Arfa!
>I can see where you are coming from on the self-taught angle. I don't have
>any basic beef with self-taught people, and I'm sure that very many who
>post on here to solicit help, fall into that category. I would state again
>that not having formal qualifications, does not preclude the possibility of
>someone being qualified to hand out valid advice. I do, however, draw the
>line, where a person who is an amateur in this particular field, considers
>himself to be qualified to advise a person with little knowledge, on how to
>carry out work on dangerous equipment, with scant attention to safety, and
>indeed to make light of safety advice given by people who are genuinely
>qualified by virtue of either formal examination, or long service in the
>trade.
>
Fair comment.
> For sure, sometimes this will catch people who are genuinely good safe
> amateurs, but they are, I feel, in the minority.
>
I honestly don't know if that's the case or not, so I really can't say
whether that's right or wrong TBH.
> Anyways, I guess we all understand one another's point of view now, and we
> can get on and back to where we were. To anyone who has been offended by
> my point of view, don't be. No offence is intended, and unless anyone else
> wants to take me to task, I don't think that there's any further virtue in
> pursuing it. d;~)
>
Agreed!
Dave