How do you amplify an amplifier?
markc...@webtv.net
Sofie
Dan Sofie
Electronics Supply & Repair
==============================================
<markc...@webtv.net> wrote in message news:14889-39C...@storefull-113.iap.bryant.webtv.net...What is the best way to do this? I was either going to use the headphone
jack or the speaker outputs. ls there a FAQ that cover this? Thanks for
any info
CLSNOWYOWL
balanced to do so).
The hi-impedance speaker outputs are definitely a No-No.
The best way to go is either preamp out to the other amp's line inputs, or the
line outputs (using tape monitor) of amp1 to the line input of amp2, or the
headphones jack of Amp1 (audio out) which while go into the line input on the
second amp.
Using the headphone jack requires proper impedance matching and not that the
headphone jack is then made to be a variable line out on AMP1 and will control
the input level of AMP2.
Triffid Hunter
inputs. your loudest volume will be the loudest that the amp connected
to your speakers can deliver. more stages will merely degrade your
signal quality.
> What is the best way to do this? I was either going to use the
> headphone
> jack or the speaker outputs. ls there a FAQ that cover this? Thanks
> for
> any info
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
Lenny
CLSNOWYOWL
audio, impedance mismatching on the High Z out to High Z in terminals from one
amp to the other can actually damage one or both amps. Many high powered
devices on home receivers/amps are actually impedance sensitive and seem easier
to damage due to the sensitivity of the domponents in these amps. There was
another post about this a month ago regarding this same subject.
I know that there are many different designs and electronics architecture
on these devices. Some amps are designed to fail on an unbalanced load or at
extremely high impedances, especially with home systems that are not intended
or designed for this purpose.
If you have to use headphones out or a variable line out from the output
of amp one to the input of amp two, then that is the better choice, but running
line out or preampout out from amp one to line in on amp two is the best best
for any application.
As far as signal degradation is concerned, it is imperceptible in most
applications if you connect the interconnecting cables properly and they are
shielded (to prevent interference of the signal, etc...) and if your speaker
wires are of the appropriate and required rating, and there is no damage to
either device (by impedance or other electrical type of mismatch).
According to the theory of signal processing, "a signal always travels from
its output to its input if the load of the signal is properly balanced"
throughout the entire system, from amp1 to amp2, line out to line in, and
through audio outputs to speaker's inputs. By passing a signal this way, you
will assure minimal degradation of quality for an infinite number of devices
connected to one another, as long as the impedances are properly balanced (the
connections from one to the other are correct). We usually suggest low
impedance (low Z) for any application you use, regardless of whether or not it
is home or car audio.
Also, High Z has certain disadvantages because it is very noisy (the
signal saturation levels are extremely high) and the high power generates the
noise in High Z for the way you are carrying the signal.
With Low Z, this is kept to a minimum because the jacks used for Low Z
connections (RCA/Phono jacks) are shielded, produce far less power and noise,
and allows you to control the saturation levels of the signal. If under
saturated, this produces a low powered, distant effect. If oversaturated, the
signal can easily be distorted.
Sofie
A little confusion with the terms here: The speaker outputs of audio amps
is LOW Z not HIGH Z (impedance) but as most have responded, the "High
Level" speaker outputs are not a good way to get a signal out of an
amplifier to feed into another. At the very least, one should install a
470 ohm resistors in series with the "hot" speaker lead so if it is
accidentally shorted at the other end where it connects to another amp you
will not blow the amplifier output stage.
Note: I have run across some strange amplifier circuitry where neither
speaker output connections are referenced to ground and trying to hook a
shielded cable to another amp where the shield is ground could raise havoc
with and blow the amp output stage.
Best Regards,
Dan Sofie
Electronics Supply & Repair
==============================================
CLSNOWYOWL <clsno...@aol.comjoe345> wrote in message
news:20000923102733...@ng-cb1.aol.com...
russell hall
What is the best way to do this? I was either going to use the headphone
jack or the speaker outputs. ls there a FAQ that cover this? Thanks for
any info
Steve Grega
russell hall wrote in message ...
CLSNOWYOWL
way gave any guarantees to how the output would be boosted. besides, volume
increases exponentially by the signal processing and the voltage applied to the
output circuit (which raises the volume).
CLSNOWYOWL
referring to. The poster did not indicate the proper application for the
question he was asking in which to connect one amp to another. I simply
interchanged the terms to make it apply to home and car audio applications.
Sorry for mixing the terms. Yes, home audio is still low Z, but the speaker
outputs have the highest impedances in home systems. I also said that it really
also depends on the amp and the proper application, design of the devices in
question, as was asked about by the poster. I was simply pointing towards the
safest ways to actually connect up the system, but I appreciate the
clarification of High Z and Low Z.
russell hall
"CLSNOWYOWL" <clsno...@aol.comjoe345> wrote in message
russell hall
I think medication might be available.
"CLSNOWYOWL" <clsno...@aol.comjoe345> wrote in message
news:20000923162431...@ng-cd1.aol.com...
russell hall
It involves the use of "out of phase" signals across the load to double the
voltage swing and then therefore the power delivered to the load.
"Steve Grega" <john...@home.com> wrote in message
news:328z5.350991$8u4.3...@news1.rdc1.bc.home.com...
russell hall
do.
I hope they aren't "professional" techs, but then maybe they are the ones
who give the profession a bad name because of their ignorance.
It is not a requirement that you have any training or skills, degrees etc.
to post in this news group.
As far as you post goes.
You are basically correct you have learned well my son.
Yes inputs such as "Aux/Tape/Etc." for most "american" audio devices are
expecting to see a signal level(voltage across the input impedance) of
around 1 volt which roughly translates to 0db and that opens a whole can of
worms.
Most of the consumer devices expect something on the order of minus 10db,
and the DIN spec is more like minus 30db.
Pro Audio uses 600 ohms with levels like +4db +8db
All of this being compared to a 1volt signal, but that's as i said before a
can of worms.
This is all with impedance's of 1k at the least, 10k/20k sometimes 50k even
100k and in the extreme Dynaco made a preamp designed to drive a 250k load!
Which if you understand the consequences made it almost worthless trying to
provide signals to a power amp with a 1k input impedance.
The output of a power amplifier expects to see a very low impedance load, it
is designed to be able to deliver current into such low impedance loads.
Adapters such as the one you referenced are pretty much exclusive to car
audio, where there is often no ground reference for the speaker, the amp can
be in what is known as "bridged" mode where each side of the speaker is
connected to an amplifier and neither wire to the speaker goes to ground.
It may be that the device also creates a lower signal "attenuates" the input
signal in order to get good s/n ratio.
Probably a good idea.
Note that it is limited to 30watts input, that means that it's loading the
amplifier that is hooked to it's input with a load resistor, which generally
isn't really necessary, but might help poorly designed amplifiers stay
stable, meaning they really need to see a lower impedance load like 4 ohms
etc.
Keep studying and keep asking when someone says something you don't
understand.
Russell Hall
"Bill J" <bi...@nospam.usa2net.net> wrote in message
news:ymdz5.43511$W45.3...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com...
> I really am having a hard time understanding some of the answers that I'm
> reading for this thread. And supposedly from Professional Tech's.
>
> Unless the device has an input designed specifically for speaker levels
> most, if not all, normal designs for audio amplification devices require
the
> input to be at or about 1 volt (commonly referred to "line level"). The
> input impedance is around 10k ohms. This would be considered Hi Z.
> The speaker output of most common audio amplification devices is designed
to
> drive an 8 ohm load. This would be considered Lo Z.
> This speaker output would be capable of producing over 5 volts for 4 watts
> and up to about 30 volts at about 100 watts across 8 ohms. Far more than
the
> 1 volt level. These are all RMS levels.
> In order to accept other than line level an adapter designed for this type
> of application will be required. An example of this can be seen at the
> following URL: http://www.linkmeup.com/pl2.htm
>
> Good luck in your design concept.
>
> "Lenny" <captain...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:39CCAC...@hotmail.com...
> > Triffid Hunter wrote:
> > >
> > > I've had no problems at all connecting speaker outs to another amp's
> > > inputs. your loudest volume will be the loudest that the amp connected
> > > to your speakers can deliver. more stages will merely degrade your
> > > signal quality.
> > >
> > > > What is the best way to do this? I was either going to use the
> > > > headphone
> > > > jack or the speaker outputs. ls there a FAQ that cover this? Thanks
> > > > for
> > > > any info
> > > >
Bill J
CLSNOWYOWL
offers some general advice that covers a wide variety of applications about a
vague audio question. If the specific application were mentioned, I might have
given a more accurate answer. I did the best I could with the information the
original poster gave me. If you want a specifc question, ask a specific answer.
If you do not like the answer because it was general and the question wasn't
specific enough (as in this case), then DO NOT insult someone for simply
answering the response as best one could FOR THE QUESTION ASKED. IT PISSES ME
OFF WHEN PEOPLE LIKE YOU PULL THIS CRAP AND I WON'T TOLERATE IT!
Please note that I posted GENERAL answers that cover a wide variety of
possible answers for those "USA" or "American" type devices. Sorry that every
single possible configuration was not given and that this did not meet with
your approval. That would be far more more configurations to diagram than this
network could handle, and the character space for posting a response is
limited.
If someone wants to be a SMARTASS THEN GO DO IT SOMEWHERE ELSE and do NOT
bother to contribute such a flagrant remark here.
CLSNOWYOWL
words didn't come out right, or didn't get explained right?
I really do understand signal processing, that it travels a certain path
(only one- from its output to its input), and that signal is generated off of
the power supply and other circuits in the device and also that the load of the
signal has to be balanced?
Why Am I giving dangerous advice when I suggest going low Z to low Z?
Why is my indication of you cannot covert Hi Z to Low Z (not really
easily) also considered dangerous? Put me to death so I do not have to bear
with the misery of your being laughing at me just because I offered some basic
advice that you challenge.
Your not responding will RESULT in me contacting AOL and have you taken off
of the newsgroup for your remarks.
If you make a remark to blast someone again, I will ask that AOL remove
you from this newsgroup for good.
CLSNOWYOWL
You asked for it. Goodbye.
Subject: Re: How do you amplify an amplifier?
From: "russell hall" db...@bellsouth.net
Date: 9/23/00 5:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <sWbz5.15437$sz.9...@news2.atl>
Triffid Hunter
>
> It involves the use of "out of phase" signals across the load to double the
> voltage swing and then therefore the power delivered to the load.
bridging can be achieved with a single op-amp wired as an inverter to
one channel of an amp, the speaker connected between the two speaker
outputs (normally labelled +). no 'very controlled circumstances'
required. done it tons of times. another way is with a transformer, but
you get signal degradation that way
Mark D. Zacharias
"Are we having fun yet?"
By the way, since no one else has mentioned it yet, bridging does not double
power, it quadruples it. (Within the limitations of the power supply of
course) This is because power varies to the SQUARE of the voltage or
current, so for example if you double the voltage swing across the load, you
get 2x2, or four times the power.
Mark Z.
"CLSNOWYOWL" <clsno...@aol.comjoe345> wrote in message
news:20000923233015...@ng-cc1.aol.com...
Asimov
Re: How do you amplify an amplifier? (24 Sep 00 10:24:35)
MDZ> As someone posted to myself, and the group recently,
MDZ> "Are we having fun yet?"
Hey, I'm jumpin!
MDZ> By the way, since no one else has mentioned it yet, bridging does not
MDZ> double power, it quadruples it. (Within the limitations of the power
MDZ> supply of course) This is because power varies to the SQUARE of the
MDZ> voltage or current, so for example if you double the voltage swing
MDZ> across the load, you get 2x2, or four times the power.
It also halves the impedance at each channel's output. Thus each channel
in the bridged amp driving an 8 ohm speaker behaves as if it was driving
a 4 ohm speaker. Accordingly, each channel tries to deliver twice the
current/power and is why both channels together then add up to four
times the power.
One practically never quite gets four times the power however,
especially with lower speaker impedances. For example a 4 ohm speaker
would be seen as a 2 ohm speaker by each channel and twice the current
demand could well cause current protection circuit limiting or power
supply sagging the channel into clipping, not to mention the IR losses.
... A stereo system is the altar to the god of music.
Wild Bill
Your statements are ludicrous, utterly ridiculous.
Contrary to your distorted view of what you believe to be factual.. Steve
Case and/or AOL does not own or control all that is perceived to be the Web,
Internet or Usenet.
AOL isn't capable of controlling much of anything actually, aside from their
their ability to restrict free speech among their own customers.
I found that even legitimate complaints to AOL were a complete waste of
time.. your whining doesn't even approach legitimacy.
Find some software that will allow you to filter what you don't want to see,
or refrain from reading anything that you might not agree with.
Or more simply, just avoid what you don't agree with.
I don't know OR CARE what you really know about audio.. but i do know that
you're often criticised for stating erroneous information. The information
you present is corrected and/or criticised more often than any other S.E.R.
participant of the last several years, if that helps you understand
anything.
WB
..............
CLSNOWYOWL wrote in message
<20000923232704...@ng-cc1.aol.com>...
snip,snip
Tom MacIntyre
Hmmm...I can add to the mess...:-)
>
>First of all, what are you trying to do?
>
>
>If you are trying to take one power amp and then "boost" it's power with =
>another amp, you're wasting your time.
>
>Whatever the power of the last amplifier in the chain is the output =
>power of the system to the load.
>
>If you take a 100 watt audio amp and connect it's output to a ten watt =
>amplifier which is connected to the speaker then you will get ten watts =
>into the speaker, not 110 watts.
It is possible to bleed output, in the form of a properly impedance
matched and level matched signal, from an amplifier to another
amplifier, while still using the same output to the speakers, which
would give 110 watts, which would not be discernible from 100 watts.
200 watts in most cases is barely discernible from 100 watts, if I
understand the theory correctly. Depending on the application, more
efficient speakers may make as much difference as added amplification
will. Doubling the wattage gives a 3 dB increase, and it's easy to
find 10 or more dB difference across a number of speaker designs.
Tom
>
>They don't add, and whatever you do don't hook two amps up to the same =
>speaker trying to get power from both.
>
>If you're just trying to send a signal from one amp to another, the =
>headphone jack is the safest way to do it.
>
>If you use the speaker terminals, be very careful, dangerous place to be =
>hooking things up.
>
>Russell
>
>
>
><markc...@webtv.net> wrote in message =
>news:14889-39C...@storefull-113.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> What is the best way to do this? I was either going to use the =
>headphone
> jack or the speaker outputs. ls there a FAQ that cover this? Thanks =
>for
> any info
>
>
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>-----
>
>
>
>------=_NextPart_000_0102_01C02573.CF3CA9E0
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><META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
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><BODY text=3Dblack bgColor=3Dwhite>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>What a mess these answers =
>are.</FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>First of all, what are you trying to=20
>do?</FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
><DIV> </DIV>
><DIV>If you are trying to take one power amp and then "boost" it's power =
>with=20
>another amp, you're wasting your time.</DIV>
><DIV> </DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Whatever the power of the last =
>amplifier in the=20
>chain is the output power of the system to the load.</FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If you take a 100 watt audio amp and =
>connect it's=20
>output to a ten watt amplifier which is connected to the speaker then =
>you will=20
>get ten watts into the speaker, not 110 watts.</FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>They don't add, and whatever you do =
>don't hook two=20
>amps up to the same speaker trying to get power from both.</FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If you're just trying to send a signal =
>from one amp=20
>to another, the headphone jack is the safest way to do it.</FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If you use the speaker terminals, be =
>very careful,=20
>dangerous place to be hooking things up.</FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Russell</FONT></DIV>
><DIV> </DIV>
><DIV> </DIV>
><DIV> </DIV>
><DIV><<A =
>href=3D"mailto:markc...@webtv.net">markc...@webtv.net</A>>=20
>wrote in message <A=20
>href=3D"news:14889-39C...@storefull-113.iap.bryant.webtv.net">news:=
>14889-39C...@storefull-113.iap.bryant.webtv.net</A>...</DIV>
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>style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
>BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">What=20
> is the best way to do this? I was either going to use the =
>headphone<BR>jack or=20
> the speaker outputs. ls there a FAQ that cover this? Thanks for<BR>any =
>
> info<BR><BR>
> <P>
> <HR>
>
> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
>
>------=_NextPart_000_0102_01C02573.CF3CA9E0--
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russell hall
There are however people who do rely on the information they read here.
Misinformation doesn't help anyone.
Whether it occurs because of the misuse of terminology due to poor verbal
skills or due to a lack of correct fundamental knowledge, it is still either
incorrect or misleading and should not be allowed to stand uncorrected.
I'll refrain from making demeaning comments in the future.
I'd ask that you be a lot more careful when you post something,
Hope this helps.
Russell
"CLSNOWYOWL" <clsno...@aol.comjoe345> wrote in message
news:20000923233015...@ng-cc1.aol.com...
russell hall
Yes it's a simple thing to provide an inverted signal.
The difficulty lies in the stability of power amplifiers when used this way.
Not all amplifiers will behave, some will become unstable.
"Controlled" probably not a perfect term.
I'd just be cautious,
Russell
"Triffid Hunter" <wjac...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:39CDAF55...@bigpond.net.au...
CLSNOWYOWL
would appreciate it if you do not do that again to anyone, even if you feel the
need to correct them. To correct the information or add to it is fine, but to
attack someone for attempting to contribute something is not. So, for now, we
will just forget this and go on.
ct: Re: How do you amplify an amplifier?
From: "russell hall" db...@bellsouth.net
Date: 9/24/00 1:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <Lxtz5.786$545....@news2.atl>
Sorry you are upset.
Hope this helps.
I appreciate your reply and I apologize for any misinformation. I realize my
response was not really clear. Let me explain below what I meant to say the
first time. I have never claimed to be a teacher or the one with the most
awesome verbal skills. The intention has never been to mislead or to misdirect
anyone.The intnetion has solely been to attempt to help people with specific or
general electronics questions, or offer advice.
I will attempt to clarify what was actually meant in the beginning,
specifically.
I was simply referring to running a signal from a line out to a line
input. I meant one can run the right and left channel audio output from the
preamp of amp 1 which has a set of RCA jacks to the right and left channel
audio line input of the RCA jacks on Amp2. This will provide a well balanced
signal (bleed from the pre amp's output of amp one) and will properly feed into
amp2.
If you had to run the signal from amp one's headphones, you can use a
Y-adapter (which takes the 1/8" or 1/4" connector and converts it to 2 RCA
jacks or plugs [depends on whether or not you use the cable or the adapter,
which is another item you can buy at radio shack])
and run the signal from the headphones out on amp1 to the line input on amp2,
with assistance of this special y-adapter.
This way, the headphone jack of amp 1 out through this adapter then becomes
a variable line output on amp1 and will control the input signal on amp2
(because the controls from amp1 out will affect the signal going in to amp 2,
when you raise the amp1 volume controls up or down).
I actually ran a signal from the headphones out of a walkman into a
stereo system, using this method. the walkman's volume controls actually
controlled the signal going out on the walkman to the amp's input signal going
into it. This way, I was able to establish a variable signal (in a controlled
fashion) going from amp1 (headphones out) to amp2 line input.
Since the line voltages produced are less than one volt here, it is
considered low impedance by using this method. The mistake I made was simply
advising not to use the audio output (speaker output) jacks of amp1 to go to
amp 2, without giving clarification as to why. The audio output stage which
drives the speakers drives them at a much higher voltage, which affects the
load and makes the load unbalanced by running it straight to a line input jack,
directly from the audio output speaker drivers. In addition, the signal quality
also becomes affected and puts a major strain on both sides of the system.
I am speaking of primarily home audio.
Also, I was saying DO NOT run the speaker wires from amp one to the RCA
right and left channel audio inputs on Aamp2, or you could damage one or both
amps. (obviously, in the last four post it didn't get across properly and was
somehow interpreted or construed to be something else)
With car audio, you have a completely different system that implements a high
or low load, so you can elect to use either for car audio only, as long as the
load is balanced to prevent from shorting anything out.
If you use RCA jacks, use RCA line outs to RCA line ins the whole way, is what
was recommended, whether you have home or car audio, because the signal
transfer is much cleaner, and you have shielded RCA cables to contend with
instead of stranded wires which adapt to RCA jacks.
Also, one can be constructive when correcting someone. They do not have to
insult someone. If you must correct and individual for making a mistake that is
fine. However, blasting an individual and laughing at them for improper wording
simply aggrivates the situation more and little gets accomplished this way. You
might consider how you would feel if someone did that to you and then keep that
in mind that you can correct someone and still spare the person's feelings.
I am also a firm believer in admitting when I am wrong (I did verbally
communicate incorrectly somehow) and in someone not letting it go and pointing
out that it is incorrect. However pointing out a mistake someone made and then
blaming them for being dangerous or denigrating their character before the
mistake is even corrected without giving the person sufficient opportunity to
restate what was meant is not only fair, but is blasting the person. When one
criticizes someone else without contributing any information, it shows that the
person criticizing has time to do nothing more than criticize someone.
Realize that in the post, the original poster did not leave a specific
request, so it was hard to interpret the question the poster was asking without
more specific information. Therefore, a General answer, which covers a number
of applications, was given on the subject of connecting one audio amp to
another. The poster never indicated what specific connections he had and what
he really intended to do, so that it could accurately explained the first time.
Often when one attempts to make a valid contribution to a post, it can
sound incorrect because of confusion of terms, or because of lack of specific
information needed to answer a question. Here, in this case was a little of
both. The poster was confusing and so was I. Now, I have taken the time to
indicate what I really meant to say and I apologize for any errors in the
communication I gave.
When someone says, how do you connect one thing to the other thing and
doesn't say what type of connector he has or when someone says, my TV doesn't
work, it is very difficult to accurately contribute a response that is
accurate, meaningful, or gives a specific answer to accomodate the needs of the
poster asking the question. Also, on numerous posts, like in solving a math
problem, there are sometimes a number of different ways to produce the same
answer or result. All different ways to approach the solution to the problem
are desired, so that it can be implemented in a number of different
applications.
This same response will also go to another person that blasted me. I will also
add a few lines to it.
I understand that accuracy in explaining something is essential and I
personally apologize for not being clear the first time. it would have saved
you all taking the time to criticize me and everyone would have known what I
meant the first time. Let's chalk this up to communication breakdown on my part
and on the part of some others. Perhaps, if someone is not clear, instead of
puting someone on the defensive, one might ask, "Do you mean it is this way? I
am not certain that is correct because I do it this way."
I do not insist my way is the right way. I simply offer a number of possible
solutions (for them to figure out, if the origincal post is generalized like
the intial post first was) and then they can elect to choose or disregard the
information and/or any corrections. I also realize that I am not the only
poster contributing to this newsgroup. I think all of have questions as well as
those with the answers really do contribute to the newsgroup. Those folks who
denigrate others just bring the newsgroup down.
The intention of the newsgroup is to have questions (general or specific)
posted and someone who can offer their two cents worth can contribute. Many of
use who do contribute take the time out of the intent and desire to help
others. We hope that in the future, all who enter here will see the true
intention for coming to this newsgroup for the actual reason it was created in
the first place. Let all who read this be reminded of why we are all here...
This is another way of connecting one person to another. We can either use it
destroy each other or to lift each other up.
I hope all who read this keep in mind that we need to keep this place as
civilized and as helpful and as informative as it can be. Good luck and God
Bless.
CLSNOWYOWL
Date: 9/24/00 3:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <20000924185409...@ng-ff1.aol.com>
I appreciate your response and forgive you for your demeaning comments. I also
would appreciate it if you do not do that again to anyone, even if you feel the
need to correct them. To correct the information or add to it is fine, but to
attack someone for attempting to contribute something is not. So, for now, we
will just forget this and go on.
ct: Re: How do you amplify an amplifier?
From: "russell hall" db...@bellsouth.net
Date: 9/24/00 1:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <Lxtz5.786$545....@news2.atl>
Sorry you are upset.
There are however people who do rely on the information they read here.
Misinformation doesn't help anyone.
Whether it occurs because of the misuse of terminology due to poor verbal
skills or due to a lack of correct fundamental knowledge, it is still either
incorrect or misleading and should not be allowed to stand uncorrected.
I'll refrain from making demeaning comments in the future.
I'd ask that you be a lot more careful when you post something,
Hope this helps.
Russell
Clsnowyowl wrote:
---------------------------------------------------
Wild Bill,
Can you at least try to be respectful when you throw in your opinion? The
issue was between Russell and myself, because he had made some demeaning
comments. Another response is indicated below and above. You didn't give me
adequate time to write an appropriate response before you blasted me. Actually,
I have seen a number of other posters get criticized and demeaned, too. I
really have not counted who gets criticized the most and I have only been here
for about six months. I am not sure if all of these posts have been archived on
who criticized whom. It seems as though only the useful postings get archived.
please read above post and previous post and realize that I am not perfect.
Yes, I verbally was incorrect and I apologize. you snapped at me before I had a
chance to respond to Russell's reply. I also gave a clarification of what I did
mean. You obviously do care, or you would not have taken your time to be so
confrontational.
I forgive you for your demeaning comments. Please forgive me for any
misinformation this time. I see this has offended you.Ii also understand that
my qualifications or justification of myself to you will not change the fact
that an error was made here, so I won't even try.I am also not going to try to
change your opinion about me. I'll leave it up to the lord to change you. Also,
I have had the same person criticize me twice on a couple of different posts
and then this second person challenge me in the time I have been on (six
months) and the many posts (over 5,000 posts) I have contributed to. I believe
with that many responses everyone is entitled to mistakes in miswording every
now and then. The appropriate correction of what was meant is given above. I
hope you accept what I have to say now, because I am open to admitting when I
am wrong and have gladly clarified what I meant to say.
I have never claimed to be a teacher or the one with the most awesome
verbal skills. The intention has never been to mislead or to misdirect
anyone.The intention has solely been to attempt to help people with specific or
general electronics questions, or offer advice.
I understand that accuracy in explaining something is essential and
bject: Re: How do you amplify an amplifier?
From: "Wild Bill" kwa...@usachoice.net
Date: 9/24/00 8:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <c7pz5.38$xf7...@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Triffid Hunter
> in the bridged amp driving an 8 ohm speaker behaves as if it was driving
> a 4 ohm speaker. Accordingly, each channel tries to deliver twice the
> current/power and is why both channels together then add up to four
> times the power.
>
> One practically never quite gets four times the power however,
> especially with lower speaker impedances. For example a 4 ohm speaker
> would be seen as a 2 ohm speaker by each channel and twice the current
> demand could well cause current protection circuit limiting or power
> supply sagging the channel into clipping, not to mention the IR losses.
depends on the amp design.. more than likely this will occurr in newer
systems, but my amps are ancient (pioneer sa-500 and a newer sharp
sc-700x with crackle in the right channel, think its cos of a leaky
tranny somewhere) and they don't seem to mind at all. the newer systems
specs are much closer to their maximums than the older systems
(generally!) and so dont perform as well when operating at spec. (this
is my opinion based on my experiences so dont flame me too much if I'm
wrong) New systems, on the other hand, are generally more tolerant of
'unusual' loads, like speakers whos impedance goes all over the place,
or 2uf capacitors, etc.
Ralph Wade Phillips
CLSNOWYOWL <clsno...@aol.comjoe345> wrote in message
news:20000923232704...@ng-cc1.aol.com...
> How can I prove to you, that I really know what I am doing, but somehow
the
> words didn't come out right, or didn't get explained right?
>
> I really do understand signal processing, that it travels a certain
path
> (only one- from its output to its input), and that signal is generated off
of
> the power supply and other circuits in the device and also that the load
of the
> signal has to be balanced?
>
> Why Am I giving dangerous advice when I suggest going low Z to low Z?
You keep stating that the speaker outputs are the HIGHEST impedance.
This is, of course, total rubbish.
As a general rule, line inputs to amps are considered high impedance
(even if they're only 1K), and the speaker outputs are low impedance (8 ohms
HIGHER than 1,000 ohms? YOU do the math.)
Try at least READING what you're typing, before you stick your feet
into your mouth again.
RwP
Ralph Wade Phillips
CLSNOWYOWL <clsno...@aol.comjoe345> wrote in message
> You have been warned. I will request that AOL take you off of this
newsgroup.
<snort> You have trouble reading?
Russ gets his internet feed via bellsouth.net. Notice his e-mail
address. Does it say "AOL" anywhere?
Sigh. To think that I get lumped with people like you when someone
finds out I DO have an AOL account (which I rarely use - it's for historical
purposes primarily - being as how I got it when AOL was AppleLink Personal
Edition ... )
Suggest you put brain in gear before typing. You don't come off
sounding very intelligent, especially with threats like this.
RwP
Wild Bill
When you make stupid remarks in a public forum, you should expect to be told
about it.. i only selected the one about reporting someone to AOL, because
it's exceptionally stupid.
Your threatened action is not a contribution to any meaning of the purpose
of this forum. It is however, a fairly accurate indicator of your
intelligence and lack of maturity.
Society doesn't exist to reinforce your self esteem.. learning is voluntary,
you seem to reject these concepts.
Your typical response to criticism is to explain your mistakes as
miscommunications or misunderstandings.
Now let's look at your reply to "Toyota Car radio Pin-out - HELP!" posted
9-23-00. Maybe you should figure out exactly where the usual
misunderstanding is taking place.. it should be obvious.
Your blessings and forgiveness aren't wanted, and you shouldn't expect them
to buy you any slack. Don't attempt to beat anyone into submission with a
cross.
When i say that i don't care what you know about audio, trust me.. i don't
give a fat rat's ass.
WB
.............
>From: "Wild Bill" kwa...@usachoice.net
>Date: 9/24/00 8:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <c7pz5.38$xf7...@newsfeed.slurp.net>
>
>Good Freakin Greefe..
>
>Your statements are ludicrous, utterly ridiculous.
>
>Contrary to your distorted view of what you believe to be factual.. Steve
>Case and/or AOL does not own or control all that is perceived to be the
Web,
>Internet or Usenet.
Barry
The rock and roll bands use a microphone at the speaker of the amp and
amplify the microphone signal.
As for hooking up the speaker output to an amp. input, that's ludicrous.
b.
CLSNOWYOWL
RCA/phono line level input is what is ludicrous, and this was mentioned it the
latest "ramblings." The 1,000 ohm impedance does not match the 8 ohm impedance.
Also, the voltage and current flows are very different from each other, as they
have different outputs altogether.
I have never expected to get any slack for unclear or poorly written
information, but I have expected you to at least be civil, not get involved in
an internet gang bang. I didn't come here to have "society to exist to
reinforce.." my.. "self esteem". I also didn't come here to let other people
lower it either.
Besides, originally, you responded to me, making demeaning comments because of
something I said to someone else (I said it after I warned the guy a few times
about his remarks). Seems you have forgotten the intention of the newsgroup.
Already, you are using it to put someone down. You can make a remark without
denigrating someone. You often do this to other posters, too.
As far as the Lord and the cross goes, whether you choose to follow him or not
is your business. I personally do not judge your decision because it is between
you and the Lord. I also do not expect mentioning His presence to you to let me
off the hook for a mispoken word.
By the way, AOL personnel do monitor these newsgroups.
As for the toyota, I suggested using a volt meter to actually measure the
pins (with one lead attached to ground at all times). True, I didn't mention
all of the equipment needed, or the safety FAQ's because I have been posting
lengthy responses lately and because other posters have given previous answer
to the same problem in the past (it has been archived a number of times at
www.deja.com). It is up to you or the other person to believe it or not.
Since you seem to harbor a grudge you will never believe me again
anyway... If I told you it was raining, you will still go outside or look out
the window just to make sure. In this regard, you lack much faith, but I
suppose when you see remarks that are unfavorable (not even being directed at
you), you nature and your perceptions are such that you need to assault the
character of someone you hardly know and get into someone else's business to
make it your business.
I have also learned that asking you for an apology (even thoough, originally,
I wasn't even speaking to you) is not helpful because you do not appear to
accept admission of mistakes or apologizing as a strength, but you see it as a
weakness and as a time to attack someone.
As for learning, sure I am always open to learning. I volunteer to learn.
If you would give me useful information instead of taking the time to
personally attack me, and show me where I am wrong, then it would be rather
helpful (I do not specialize in car audio, although I have done some work on
them quite a few times). If you attack someone, one may be resistant to learn,
but if you say the remarks are not correct, prove your case, and do it
respectfully about an error, or you add your advice, respectfully, one might be
more receptive to learn and see the additional information, or admit an error.
Yes, learning is a process of reading, observing, getting hands on knowledge,
going through the actual practices, actually experiencing the different
processes, and then passing the knowledge on.If the information is erroneous,
then it gets corrected and the process goes on.
My remark (you called threat) occurred after the third time the guy blasted
me in a fighting tone. Everyone has the right to a defense and to vent their
frustration about other people attacking them, when other people make
demeaning, insulting remarks.
All you have done is attack me on put me on the defensive through out the
course of the conversation. When I apologized and admitted the mistake, you
kept attacking, even as far as your last post! Continuing to attack when
someone has surrendered is uncouth. This also does not reflect very well to
other posters that read this, because you continue to attack. Besides you used
profanity, too.
Wild Bill says:
Subject: Re: How do you amplify an amplifier?
From: "Wild Bill" kwa...@usachoice.net
Date: 9/25/00 9:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <ugLz5.1887$xf7....@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Steve Grega
"Why argue, when You could fight" :-))
St
CLSNOWYOWL
--------------------------------------------------
Steve said:
Subject: Re: How do you amplify an amplifier?
From: "Steve Grega" john...@home.com
Date: 9/25/00 12:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <JONz5.360996$8u4.3...@news1.rdc1.bc.home.com>
Wild Bill
that the radio came from.
Then you might explain how a volt meter will indicate the correct pinout on
a radio that's removed from a vehicle.
Since you supposedly reviewed your reply, your attempt to defend the
misinformation you offered, is notably pathetic.
This could've been observed as an oversight on your part, but you seem to be
focusing on defending your credibility.. completely disregarding the fact
that you completely missed the point that the poster has a radio with an
unknown pinout.
Your insistent defense of your erroneous statement isn't going to affect
anyone's reputation or credibility but your own. You tend to do this same
thing repeatedly.
You appear to be intent on exposing your ignorance.. this isn't my doing.
As for your religious statements and accusations that i often denigrate
others.. well, that was spoken like a true douchebag.. all within my
expectations of you.
Remind yourself that this exchange was started over your statement that you
would report someone to AOL to have them removed from this newsgroup..
another completely false delusion of yours.
> As for the toyota, I suggested using a volt meter to actually measure
the
>pins (with one lead attached to ground at all times).
WB
..................
>Subject: Re: How do you amplify an amplifier?
>From: "Wild Bill" kwa...@usachoice.net
>Date: 9/25/00 9:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <ugLz5.1887$xf7....@newsfeed.slurp.net>
>
>misc CLSNOWYOWL ramblings snipped
>Your typical response to criticism is to explain your mistakes as
>miscommunications or misunderstandings.
>Now let's look at your reply to "Toyota Car radio Pin-out - HELP!" posted
>9-23-00. Maybe you should figure out exactly where the usual
>misunderstanding is taking place.. it should be obvious.
>
Tom MacIntyre
No...it isn't...
Tom
Tom MacIntyre
wrote:
>good point, but why fight over something so trivial?
>
>--------------------------------------------------
Like...the signal goes from the input, to the output, within a
device...from device to device, the signal goes from the output to the
input...this clarification is quite important...we aren't fighting
here, either...
Tom
>
>Steve said:
>
>Subject: Re: How do you amplify an amplifier?
Asimov
Re: How do you amplify an amplifier? (25 Sep 00 20:16:55)
It's just too bad it wasn't 2 women...
Cat fight! Hatatatatata!!! (t.m. Kramer)
CL> good point, but why fight over something so trivial?
CL> There is a nice saying:
CL> "Why argue, when You could fight" :-))
... Of course it's grounded! ...watch, ...YEEEEEAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!
Mark D. Zacharias
instance of having a customers' unit fry during the estimate phase, I
routinely connect from the units' headphone output to my bench setup during
initial tests. Works great, saves time any tells me most of what I need to
know about the operating condition of the piece without having to hook up
resistive loads. Only if the piece uses a separate headphone amp does this
not work. Impedance isn't a problem. Matching impedance is an ideal, but it
is not the Eleventh Commandment. We hook up our oscilloscopes across 8-ohm
loads, or across open circuits all the time. Putting a high impedance across
a low one causes no problem in these cases. Putting a low impedance across a
high impedance generally gets you a low or no signal available across the
low impedance, but causes no harm, since the higher impedance of the source
cannot be shorted out this way. I would have no technical issue with running
a power amp directly from a receiver headphone jack on a permanent basis,
though it's not the ideal way to go. Most if not all people would never hear
the difference.
P.S.
Some of the posts on this subject have been a bit difficult to follow with
the casual use of terms like input, output, Hi-Z, etc. Some posts appear to
represent signal flow backwards, from output to input.
Mark Z.
"Barry" <ba...@jasmine.psyber.com> wrote in message
news:8qo08a$kab$1...@news.psyber.com...
CLSNOWYOWL
represent signal flow backwards, from output to input"? This is actually the
concept of "passing" a signal. This is also true of any audio and video medium
used.
We can use the analogy of mailing a simple letter, to follow the concept of
signal processing in much the same way.
If I send you a letter in the mail, the letter travels from me (the sender) to
you (the receiver). The post office takes the letter from me and "carries" it
to you. You take the letter from the "carrier" and at this point, you receive
it. The "carrier" then is seperate from you after the letter is delivered. You
then open the letter.You process and interpret the information.
You can even further say, then that in the real world, we have to make sure the
information (the letter, in the analogy) doesn't become lost, misdirected, or
misinterpreted. You can even filter out the unpleasant portions of the
information you receive, or you can amplify it, depending on the application
All of these factors need to be accounted for in just the simple process of
sending and receiving a letter.
This same analogy is basically true in electronics, and the concept of passing
or carrying and processing electronics signals is similar to the analogus
concept given above. I wonder why people consider that knowledge backwards. The
concept has now been fully explained and it might do the people in this
newsgroup to at least consider what has been said.
The signal always originates and comes from an audio sources' output and goes
into the an audio sources input. The resistance on the electrical load (a force
which works against the signal) has to be properly balanced, the way most amps
and audio devices are designed to achieve the best results in faithfully
reproducing the medium.
Also keep in mind that some signals travel hundreds or thousands or miles and
by the time you receive them, the signals are weak in a number of cases. This
is why each signal has to be amplified (even the signal amplifiers are working
through a line out and input).
So, the concept is really not backward thinking but forward thinking. The
signal always travels from its output to its input, as long as the electrical
load is balalnced. Also, a signal is generated right from the power supply.
That is a basic concept of signal processing. I encourage anyone working with
A/V to know and remember this basic concept. This is really also the best and
easiest way to explain something to the average layperson.
ubject: Re: How do you amplify an amplifier?
From: "Mark D. Zacharias" mzach...@kscable.com
Date: 9/26/00 3:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <AS_z5.14675$K5.5...@typhoon.kc.rr.com>
Tom MacIntyre
wrote:
>How come you say "Some posts appear to
>represent signal flow backwards, from output to input"? This is actually the
>concept of "passing" a signal. This is also true of any audio and video medium
>used.
>
>We can use the analogy of mailing a simple letter, to follow the concept of
>signal processing in much the same way.
>
>If I send you a letter in the mail, the letter travels from me (the sender) to
>you (the receiver). The post office takes the letter from me and "carries" it
>to you. You take the letter from the "carrier" and at this point, you receive
>it. The "carrier" then is seperate from you after the letter is delivered. You
>then open the letter.You process and interpret the information.
>
>You can even further say, then that in the real world, we have to make sure the
>information (the letter, in the analogy) doesn't become lost, misdirected, or
>misinterpreted. You can even filter out the unpleasant portions of the
>information you receive, or you can amplify it, depending on the application
>All of these factors need to be accounted for in just the simple process of
>sending and receiving a letter.
No...you are the one who is missing the boat...the only medium
involved in the out-to-in transmission of any signal is the cable,
unless...you are talking about the big picture(where the output of a
unit finally, after much processing, shows up at the input of another
unti, but I digress)...but...the signal processing is done in
individual units where the signal is always passed, within, from the
INPUTS...to the OUTPUTS...
Do you plug your microphone into the outputs of your stereo, and then
plug the speaker into the inputs? Huh? Do you? No...the audio goes
from the input, where the microphone's signal is applied, to the
output, where the speakers receive and change the electrical energy to
sound...
Output fed into input is basically like...people eating...feces...and
then passing...pizza...steak...potatoes...not the world I want to be
part of...:-)
Tom
Mark D. Zacharias
look at a signal which enters an input jack not progressing from there
through the various stages to the output stage. Further, I think you are a
little too committed to the concept of a "balanced" load. A chassis-grounded
output is by nature unbalanced. If you are referring to matching impedance,
as I said, this is an ideal but not an absolute requirement (in audio at
least). Consider how the impedance of a loudspeaker varies with frequency.
It is impossible to provide a perfect impedance match from amp to speaker.
That is why they call it "nominal impedance".
Mark Z.
"CLSNOWYOWL" <clsno...@aol.comjoe345> wrote in message
news:20000926160123...@ng-da1.aol.com...
CLSNOWYOWL
within a device, and also the signal which is transmitted (sent out ) from a TV
or radio station, or a tape deck playback signal-- the signal comes from the
tape and goes into the unit, or the CD player's
data read from the CD-- an output function in which the signal is read from the
CD, then out from the CD goes into the unit's internal processors.
Internconnecting component cables are simply a medium for continuing the
process (just externally). Hook up a scope to your wall outlets which produce
power. You'll also find a measureable signal is there (60 Hz signal), which is
an output signal of some sort (although the signal helps to facilitate power
here) also. The signal is already on your wall outlet even before you plug any
device into it.
So, since an output is going into an input for devices in playback mode on
a grand scale and in every other specific application electronics uses (except
for a power AC generator or dynamo for power, or recording circuits), how can
you say otherwise?
In response to:
{
No...you are the one who is missing the boat...the only medium
involved in the out-to-in transmission of any signal is the cable,
unless...you are talking about the big picture(where the output of a
unit finally, after much processing, shows up at the input of another
unti, but I digress)...but...the signal processing is done in
individual units where the signal is always passed, within, from the
INPUTS...to the OUTPUTS...
Do you plug your microphone into the outputs of your stereo, and then
plug the speaker into the inputs? Huh? Do you? No...the audio goes
from the input, where the microphone's signal is applied, to the
output, where the speakers receive and change the electrical energy to
sound... }
No, I was referring to the concept of carrying a signal (playback), wasn't
referring to a circuit for recording (although for live recording, the mic is
basically taking the signal from the one producing the sound-- another example
of a signal going from an output to an input).
previous post:
{
Output fed into input is basically like...people eating...feces...and
then passing...pizza...steak...potatoes...not the world I want to be
part of...:-)
}
This is essentially what playback is. Recording is similar to our eating
and elminating waste. Remember that these electronics devices have the ability
to take a signal in (for recording) and put a signal out (playback). Usually,
the primary receiver receives a signal from a sender.
Again, you might take mail in from the locked mailbox, but in order for you
to even get mail, it has to come from someone sending it to you. Just because
you were not involved in getting the letter sent to you by the sender doesn't
mean the sender didn't send it.
CLSNOWYOWL
why we are able to receive the signal at the input of a device. The signal is
coming from an output (at the end of the antenna feedline) or from an A/V
source (whether in be a record, tape, cd, Video tape, DVD, etc...) and going to
an input. the only way to pick up a signal is to receive it from a sender of
some sort.
If you record my voice or singing in a microphone, my voice is going out
for the microphone to pick it up... right?
Tom MacIntyre
wrote:
>I was speaking of the signal passing from one device to another, processing
>within a device, and also the signal which is transmitted (sent out ) from a TV
>or radio station, or a tape deck playback signal-- the signal comes from the
>tape and goes into the unit, or the CD player's
>data read from the CD-- an output function in which the signal is read from the
>CD, then out from the CD goes into the unit's internal processors.
The media passing the signal from one device to another is often
inconsequential, in that its functionality is quite easily verified.
The stuff we deal with...repair...has a signal that starts at the
input, and ends at the output. For interconnection, yes...it's output
connects to input...except with Y-adapters...HAHA, now there's a can
of worms to be opened...:-)
Tom
>
> Internconnecting component cables are simply a medium for continuing the
>process (just externally). Hook up a scope to your wall outlets which produce
>power. You'll also find a measureable signal is there (60 Hz signal), which is
>an output signal of some sort (although the signal helps to facilitate power
>here) also. The signal is already on your wall outlet even before you plug any
>device into it.
>
> So, since an output is going into an input for devices in playback mode on
>a grand scale and in every other specific application electronics uses (except
>for a power AC generator or dynamo for power, or recording circuits), how can
>you say otherwise?
>
>In response to:
>
>{
>No...you are the one who is missing the boat...the only medium
>involved in the out-to-in transmission of any signal is the cable,
>unless...you are talking about the big picture(where the output of a
>unit finally, after much processing, shows up at the input of another
>unti, but I digress)...but...the signal processing is done in
>individual units where the signal is always passed, within, from the
>INPUTS...to the OUTPUTS...
>
>Do you plug your microphone into the outputs of your stereo, and then
>plug the speaker into the inputs? Huh? Do you? No...the audio goes
>from the input, where the microphone's signal is applied, to the
>output, where the speakers receive and change the electrical energy to
>sound... }
>
>No, I was referring to the concept of carrying a signal (playback), wasn't
>referring to a circuit for recording (although for live recording, the mic is
>basically taking the signal from the one producing the sound-- another example
>of a signal going from an output to an input).
>
>previous post:
>
>{
>Output fed into input is basically like...people eating...feces...and
>then passing...pizza...steak...potatoes...not the world I want to be
>part of...:-)
> }
>
Mark D. Zacharias
simple concept, eh?
Mark Z.
"CLSNOWYOWL" <clsno...@aol.comjoe345> wrote in message
news:20000927050817...@ng-ff1.aol.com...