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Help understanding fan motor.
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Splork
Apr 29, 2013, 7:30:11 AM4/29/13
to
Hi,
Pulled a fan motor from a large (new) assembly some years ago. The best I could
do was to take some attached components along with it so I could sort it later.
The start cap and a High Voltage Module are there as well as the line cord. The
switching assembly had to be left behind. As it was on the street, I could not
do any better than I did.
I am scratching my head on how to wire this and want to use it.
http://www.grailworks.org//Images/Motor.jpg
Seems like a selector wired to connect the Red, yellow or brown to the ac input
the HV module has (bottom), and connect the other ac input that is going to the
black motor wire to the white wire (top side of the HV module) would make sense.
Supplies full power to the HV and motor start cap.
As noted, the 2 black wires have no ohmic relationship to any of the other wires
or the motor frame.
I failed to get a reading of the start winding to the other wires so I have some
homework to do before applying any power.
The cap, line cord (marked AC) and HV module are as it was in the machine.
The 12KV HV output wires are omitted.
Why one AC line went to a black wire (and apparently nowhere else) is a mystery.
I will undo the plastic covered crimp connector and see if I tore out another
wire that connected to them, but it looks like there were none.
Comments greatly desired
Pulled a fan motor from a large (new) assembly some years ago. The best I could
do was to take some attached components along with it so I could sort it later.
The start cap and a High Voltage Module are there as well as the line cord. The
switching assembly had to be left behind. As it was on the street, I could not
do any better than I did.
I am scratching my head on how to wire this and want to use it.
http://www.grailworks.org//Images/Motor.jpg
Seems like a selector wired to connect the Red, yellow or brown to the ac input
the HV module has (bottom), and connect the other ac input that is going to the
black motor wire to the white wire (top side of the HV module) would make sense.
Supplies full power to the HV and motor start cap.
As noted, the 2 black wires have no ohmic relationship to any of the other wires
or the motor frame.
I failed to get a reading of the start winding to the other wires so I have some
homework to do before applying any power.
The cap, line cord (marked AC) and HV module are as it was in the machine.
The 12KV HV output wires are omitted.
Why one AC line went to a black wire (and apparently nowhere else) is a mystery.
I will undo the plastic covered crimp connector and see if I tore out another
wire that connected to them, but it looks like there were none.
Comments greatly desired
Wild_Bill
Apr 30, 2013, 9:05:20 AM4/30/13
to
If you can find the value of the capacitor, generally marked on the side..
value(uF MF mF etc) and voltage, part number.
The value will indicate what type of motor it is, although it appears to be
a PSC type )permanent split capacitor) motor, and possibly multi-speed (or
dual voltage).
There may be worthwhile info on the motor case.. a tag or diagram-p/n on a
label inside the wiring cover if equipped.
It sounds like an open frame blower motor from a furnace or air handler
which also included an electrostatic air cleaner.. that's likely what the
12kV is for, definitely not needed to operate the motor (should be removed
to prevent any surprise shocks which could result in serious injury).
If the appliance was a home comfort apparatus, you might try posting a
picture on a HVAC forum.
I would cut away the HV module and try to determine if the (top) white lead,
and the (bottom) black lead/AC are the power leads.
There should also be a secure earth ground connection to the case for
testing and use/operation.
Testing should be attempted by a qualified, experienced individual with the
capacitor in place as shown.
Without a motor manufacturer's name or part number, you may not find any
data regarding the other leads (red, yellow).
--
Cheers,
WB
.............
"Splork" <spl...@splork.net> wrote in message
news:5dksn8t7vmujcoc3d...@4ax.com...
value(uF MF mF etc) and voltage, part number.
The value will indicate what type of motor it is, although it appears to be
a PSC type )permanent split capacitor) motor, and possibly multi-speed (or
dual voltage).
There may be worthwhile info on the motor case.. a tag or diagram-p/n on a
label inside the wiring cover if equipped.
It sounds like an open frame blower motor from a furnace or air handler
which also included an electrostatic air cleaner.. that's likely what the
12kV is for, definitely not needed to operate the motor (should be removed
to prevent any surprise shocks which could result in serious injury).
If the appliance was a home comfort apparatus, you might try posting a
picture on a HVAC forum.
I would cut away the HV module and try to determine if the (top) white lead,
and the (bottom) black lead/AC are the power leads.
There should also be a secure earth ground connection to the case for
testing and use/operation.
Testing should be attempted by a qualified, experienced individual with the
capacitor in place as shown.
Without a motor manufacturer's name or part number, you may not find any
data regarding the other leads (red, yellow).
--
Cheers,
WB
.............
"Splork" <spl...@splork.net> wrote in message
news:5dksn8t7vmujcoc3d...@4ax.com...
Splork
May 1, 2013, 8:49:19 AM5/1/13
to
On Tue, 30 Apr 2013 09:05:20 -0400, "Wild_Bill" <wb_wi...@XSPAMyahoo.com>
wrote:
>If you can find the value of the capacitor, generally marked on the side..
>value(uF MF mF etc) and voltage, part number.
>
>The value will indicate what type of motor it is, although it appears to be
>a PSC type )permanent split capacitor) motor, and possibly multi-speed (or
>dual voltage).
>
>There may be worthwhile info on the motor case.. a tag or diagram-p/n on a
>label inside the wiring cover if equipped.
>
>It sounds like an open frame blower motor from a furnace or air handler
>which also included an electrostatic air cleaner.. that's likely what the
>12kV is for, definitely not needed to operate the motor (should be removed
>to prevent any surprise shocks which could result in serious injury).
>If the appliance was a home comfort apparatus, you might try posting a
>picture on a HVAC forum.
>
>I would cut away the HV module and try to determine if the (top) white lead,
>and the (bottom) black lead/AC are the power leads.
>There should also be a secure earth ground connection to the case for
>testing and use/operation.
>Testing should be attempted by a qualified, experienced individual with the
>capacitor in place as shown.
>
>Without a motor manufacturer's name or part number, you may not find any
>data regarding the other leads (red, yellow).
Thanks for the comments.
The device is long gone (8 years) and I suspect it to be what you think it is.
What remains wired is done so by crimped wire connectors (like permanent wire
nuts)
I asked for comments because I am lost explaining no ohmic relationship with
any of the black leads to anything else and one fed from the line voltage lead.
There are no other wires connected to that lead so there is no evident complete
circuit possible. One power line wire to that lead exclusively.
Other than that it seems a straightforward tapped motor, though the winding
implementation needs to be sorted out.
Making White hot and using the windings to selectively complete the circuit is
logical.
3uF is what I might expect for a low start torque air handler. Likely
permanent. Not a huge motor. Nicely fit to an air directing shroud.
I would suspect a black lead for frame ground but 2 blacks ?? and one wired hot
is a head scratcher. Hence my wail for help.
The HV module will come off. I might find a good way to use it in my
application for air scrubbing but that is an afterthought.
There is nary a mark on the motor. Nothing that I could get a response for on
the net. No Mfg imprint either
I am not a HVAC guy but I did AV Repair when TVs still had tubes and did a stint
designing Motherboards in the early PC Market. Not threatening for me.
Thanks again
wrote:
>If you can find the value of the capacitor, generally marked on the side..
>value(uF MF mF etc) and voltage, part number.
>
>The value will indicate what type of motor it is, although it appears to be
>a PSC type )permanent split capacitor) motor, and possibly multi-speed (or
>dual voltage).
>
>There may be worthwhile info on the motor case.. a tag or diagram-p/n on a
>label inside the wiring cover if equipped.
>
>It sounds like an open frame blower motor from a furnace or air handler
>which also included an electrostatic air cleaner.. that's likely what the
>12kV is for, definitely not needed to operate the motor (should be removed
>to prevent any surprise shocks which could result in serious injury).
>If the appliance was a home comfort apparatus, you might try posting a
>picture on a HVAC forum.
>
>I would cut away the HV module and try to determine if the (top) white lead,
>and the (bottom) black lead/AC are the power leads.
>There should also be a secure earth ground connection to the case for
>testing and use/operation.
>Testing should be attempted by a qualified, experienced individual with the
>capacitor in place as shown.
>
>Without a motor manufacturer's name or part number, you may not find any
>data regarding the other leads (red, yellow).
The device is long gone (8 years) and I suspect it to be what you think it is.
What remains wired is done so by crimped wire connectors (like permanent wire
nuts)
I asked for comments because I am lost explaining no ohmic relationship with
any of the black leads to anything else and one fed from the line voltage lead.
There are no other wires connected to that lead so there is no evident complete
circuit possible. One power line wire to that lead exclusively.
Other than that it seems a straightforward tapped motor, though the winding
implementation needs to be sorted out.
Making White hot and using the windings to selectively complete the circuit is
logical.
3uF is what I might expect for a low start torque air handler. Likely
permanent. Not a huge motor. Nicely fit to an air directing shroud.
I would suspect a black lead for frame ground but 2 blacks ?? and one wired hot
is a head scratcher. Hence my wail for help.
The HV module will come off. I might find a good way to use it in my
application for air scrubbing but that is an afterthought.
There is nary a mark on the motor. Nothing that I could get a response for on
the net. No Mfg imprint either
I am not a HVAC guy but I did AV Repair when TVs still had tubes and did a stint
designing Motherboards in the early PC Market. Not threatening for me.
Thanks again
Wild_Bill
May 1, 2013, 3:44:06 PM5/1/13
to
One possible reason for neither of the black leads showing any continuity to
any other wires could be the appliance was discarded for a reason.. maybe
the motor went bad years ago.
A 3uF motor cap would very likely be on a PSC type motor. The wiring scheme
for a PSC is similar to a center-tapped transformer.. 2 (nearly) identical
windings in series.
wire o--------------o--------------o wire
The center tap is a third wire, and the resistance readings from center to
each end would be close to identical, and combined, those readings would
equal the end-to-end resistance reading.
No manufacturer would use a black wire for an earth ground wire. Earth
ground is nearly always green, although sometimes green/yellow.
The white wire is common to the motor capacitor and the HV module, so I'd
expect that to be the neutral of 120VAC (located electrically at the center
of the 2 windings).
The grey wire likely goes to an end of one of the windings.
I'd suspect that one of the black wires was the hot side of 120VAC.
Since there's no continuity, then likely a break in the wire-to-winding
connection or an open winding.
PSC motors are frequently thermally protected, so a slim possibility could
be a bad (open) thermal protector. Trouble is, it may not be easy to find
it.
Those insulated splices may be Buchanan splice-caps.. very common in
consumer appliance wiring. They're very reliable when crimped properly with
the Buchanan crimper.. and the insulating caps just snap on over the splice.
Very consistent results if used conscientiously.
news:efv1o8hbve0eurnfp...@4ax.com...
any other wires could be the appliance was discarded for a reason.. maybe
the motor went bad years ago.
A 3uF motor cap would very likely be on a PSC type motor. The wiring scheme
for a PSC is similar to a center-tapped transformer.. 2 (nearly) identical
windings in series.
wire o--------------o--------------o wire
The center tap is a third wire, and the resistance readings from center to
each end would be close to identical, and combined, those readings would
equal the end-to-end resistance reading.
No manufacturer would use a black wire for an earth ground wire. Earth
ground is nearly always green, although sometimes green/yellow.
The white wire is common to the motor capacitor and the HV module, so I'd
expect that to be the neutral of 120VAC (located electrically at the center
of the 2 windings).
The grey wire likely goes to an end of one of the windings.
I'd suspect that one of the black wires was the hot side of 120VAC.
Since there's no continuity, then likely a break in the wire-to-winding
connection or an open winding.
PSC motors are frequently thermally protected, so a slim possibility could
be a bad (open) thermal protector. Trouble is, it may not be easy to find
it.
Those insulated splices may be Buchanan splice-caps.. very common in
consumer appliance wiring. They're very reliable when crimped properly with
the Buchanan crimper.. and the insulating caps just snap on over the splice.
Very consistent results if used conscientiously.
news:efv1o8hbve0eurnfp...@4ax.com...
hrho...@sbcglobal.net
May 3, 2013, 3:49:54 PM5/3/13
to
as the manufacturer's name, model, anything???
Splork
May 5, 2013, 12:30:25 PM5/5/13
to
asking for a comment.
Splork
May 5, 2013, 12:44:49 PM5/5/13
to
On Wed, 1 May 2013 15:44:06 -0400, "Wild_Bill" <wb_wi...@XSPAMyahoo.com>
wrote:
The box I pulled this out of looked Brand New. The plastic Fan blade, housing
and motor had no dust whatsoever. True that the HV charge might have reduced
that accumulation, but this was as new. I pondered the possibilities and also
thought that the motor might just be open from the black lead. Good reason to
toss it. But the schematic makes no sense. Unless it was incorrectly wired
from the factory. The white motor winding just begs for the AC line that
connects to the black lead.
I have yet to put it on the bench again to measure the start winding and see
what relationships show up.
Will report back what I find.
Thanks much for the chat!
wrote:
and motor had no dust whatsoever. True that the HV charge might have reduced
that accumulation, but this was as new. I pondered the possibilities and also
thought that the motor might just be open from the black lead. Good reason to
toss it. But the schematic makes no sense. Unless it was incorrectly wired
from the factory. The white motor winding just begs for the AC line that
connects to the black lead.
I have yet to put it on the bench again to measure the start winding and see
what relationships show up.
Will report back what I find.
Thanks much for the chat!
Splork
May 5, 2013, 12:47:04 PM5/5/13
to
application for this.
Almost mark free motor. Tiny label with obscure part number only.
Splork
May 6, 2013, 12:25:13 PM5/6/13
to
On Wed, 1 May 2013 15:44:06 -0400, "Wild_Bill" <wb_wi...@XSPAMyahoo.com>
wrote:
wrote:
>One possible reason for neither of the black leads showing any continuity to
>any other wires could be the appliance was discarded for a reason.. maybe
>the motor went bad years ago.
>
>A 3uF motor cap would very likely be on a PSC type motor. The wiring scheme
>for a PSC is similar to a center-tapped transformer.. 2 (nearly) identical
>windings in series.
>
>wire o--------------o--------------o wire
>
>
>The center tap is a third wire, and the resistance readings from center to
>each end would be close to identical, and combined, those readings would
>equal the end-to-end resistance reading.
>
>No manufacturer would use a black wire for an earth ground wire. Earth
>ground is nearly always green, although sometimes green/yellow.
>
>The white wire is common to the motor capacitor and the HV module, so I'd
>expect that to be the neutral of 120VAC (located electrically at the center
>of the 2 windings).
>The grey wire likely goes to an end of one of the windings.
>
>I'd suspect that one of the black wires was the hot side of 120VAC.
>Since there's no continuity, then likely a break in the wire-to-winding
>connection or an open winding.
OK, I looked at it again and took some readings that I did not before. The
>any other wires could be the appliance was discarded for a reason.. maybe
>the motor went bad years ago.
>
>A 3uF motor cap would very likely be on a PSC type motor. The wiring scheme
>for a PSC is similar to a center-tapped transformer.. 2 (nearly) identical
>windings in series.
>
>wire o--------------o--------------o wire
>
>
>The center tap is a third wire, and the resistance readings from center to
>each end would be close to identical, and combined, those readings would
>equal the end-to-end resistance reading.
>
>No manufacturer would use a black wire for an earth ground wire. Earth
>ground is nearly always green, although sometimes green/yellow.
>
>The white wire is common to the motor capacitor and the HV module, so I'd
>expect that to be the neutral of 120VAC (located electrically at the center
>of the 2 windings).
>The grey wire likely goes to an end of one of the windings.
>
>I'd suspect that one of the black wires was the hot side of 120VAC.
>Since there's no continuity, then likely a break in the wire-to-winding
>connection or an open winding.
Black wire mystery is solved. Black in to black out is likely an interrupter of
sorts. Thermal protection?? Allows the motor to cut power to everything if it
senses trouble.
Zero ohms between them. Don't know how I missed that. If it is intermittently
failing (reason for discard), I can bypass it.
The gray wire to the brown is 66 ohms, increasing as we move towards white, so
brown is the center tap and the start coil 66 ohms.
http://www.grailworks.org//Images/Motor.jpg
So the Black Wire hot out from the motor goes to the white lead, start/run cap,
and HV input. Looks good. The other side of the HV input has the other AC leg
and it would connect to the brown wire.
I presume whatever switching device is used, it would bypass (short) the brown
to yellow or brown to red or yellow to red or so on, to remove power to those
coil segments. Something to ponder when I have a moment.
For hrhofann: Part number on unit is 001-02084-000
Ref # DM-60001
Year 04 H
Zilch on lookup by me. Got an idea?? I would love to see how this was intended
to be run.
Thanks guys!
Codejohn
May 7, 2013, 12:38:17 AM5/7/13
to
I utilize the potential outcomes and additionally imagined that the
engine may just be open from the dark lead. Be that as it may the
schematic makes no sense. There is nary an imprint on the engine.
Nothing that I could get a reaction for on the net.
--
Codejohn
Wild_Bill
May 14, 2013, 6:01:00 AM5/14/13
to
I've only seen external leads for the thermal protection device on
industrial motors (specifically Oriental Motors gearmotors).
The purpose of the external leads is for use where excessive motor heat
(overload) could be used to signal/actuate/interrupt other devices on a
machine.
So the TP (thermal protection) leads for your motor would be wired in series
with the L1 line-in, and one of the motor's power connections.
The other connection would be for N neutral.
The 2 identical readings between 3 wires would likely indicate the motor run
windings, and there should be ~132 ohms measured across the 2 windings in
series (end-to-end).
If there aren't 2 nearly identical resistance readings between windings
found, then those aren't likely to be the run windings (excluding
multi-speed connections).
BTW, there are no start windings in a PSC motor, only 2 run windings.
I haven't taken any resistance readings of PSC motor windings in a while, so
I can't say if the 66 ohm reading is reasonable.
I don't have any suggestions for the red and yel wires. My focus would be to
determine if the motor is useable, not all of it's features.
L1 o-----(switch)-----o(blk)--(TP)--(blk)o------(66R)------(center
conn)------(66R)
N
o--------------------------------------------------------------------------o------[cap]------o
Ground o---------------------------(motor case)
These would be the typical connections for a PSC motor, and how I would test
it, IF I were fairly certain of the run winding connections.
I would have separated the HV supply long ago, since it has no use in
powering the motor.
If it can be determined to be in working condition, then the possibility of
reversing the rotation may be considered.
FWIW, these motors can usually be found for ~$10 (maybe less) for a new
surplus motor with a wiring diagram and a specific RPM, from numerous
surplus dealers.
--
Cheers,
WB
.............
"when you pry it from my cold, dead hands" is the attitude of some folks
regarding "their" money.
But when the money is finally extracted, it has no value, because they've
squeezed all the ink out of the paper.
news:jmhfo8pugrd730dm9...@4ax.com...
industrial motors (specifically Oriental Motors gearmotors).
The purpose of the external leads is for use where excessive motor heat
(overload) could be used to signal/actuate/interrupt other devices on a
machine.
So the TP (thermal protection) leads for your motor would be wired in series
with the L1 line-in, and one of the motor's power connections.
The other connection would be for N neutral.
The 2 identical readings between 3 wires would likely indicate the motor run
windings, and there should be ~132 ohms measured across the 2 windings in
series (end-to-end).
If there aren't 2 nearly identical resistance readings between windings
found, then those aren't likely to be the run windings (excluding
multi-speed connections).
BTW, there are no start windings in a PSC motor, only 2 run windings.
I haven't taken any resistance readings of PSC motor windings in a while, so
I can't say if the 66 ohm reading is reasonable.
I don't have any suggestions for the red and yel wires. My focus would be to
determine if the motor is useable, not all of it's features.
L1 o-----(switch)-----o(blk)--(TP)--(blk)o------(66R)------(center
conn)------(66R)
N
o--------------------------------------------------------------------------o------[cap]------o
Ground o---------------------------(motor case)
These would be the typical connections for a PSC motor, and how I would test
it, IF I were fairly certain of the run winding connections.
I would have separated the HV supply long ago, since it has no use in
powering the motor.
If it can be determined to be in working condition, then the possibility of
reversing the rotation may be considered.
FWIW, these motors can usually be found for ~$10 (maybe less) for a new
surplus motor with a wiring diagram and a specific RPM, from numerous
surplus dealers.
--
Cheers,
WB
.............
"when you pry it from my cold, dead hands" is the attitude of some folks
regarding "their" money.
But when the money is finally extracted, it has no value, because they've
squeezed all the ink out of the paper.
news:jmhfo8pugrd730dm9...@4ax.com...
gary.sc...@scs-incorporated.com
Apr 5, 2020, 2:31:29 PM4/5/20
to
Allodoxaphobia
Apr 6, 2020, 1:10:29 PM4/6/20
to
> On Monday, April 29, 2013 at 6:30:11 AM UTC-5, Splork wrote:
>
> Comments greatly desired
>
What you want are suggestions and helpful tips.
Self-referentially, this ng has FAR TOO many "comments".
legg
Apr 8, 2020, 1:03:52 PM4/8/20
to
Paul Hovnanian P.E.
Apr 12, 2020, 8:58:54 PM4/12/20
to
legg wrote:
> In 2013.
>
He's either been electrocuted or given up and moved on.
--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:Pa...@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't use your phone, don't use mine.
Don't speak treason, the're tapping the line.
> In 2013.
>
He's either been electrocuted or given up and moved on.
--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:Pa...@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't use your phone, don't use mine.
Don't speak treason, the're tapping the line.
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