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[FoxNews]A small town's sudden power surge fried tech gear in hundreds of homes
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Mr. Man-wai Chang
Feb 1, 2017, 12:31:51 PM2/1/17
to
A small town's sudden power surge fried tech gear in hundreds of homes
Full story:
http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2017/01/31/small-town-sudden-power-surge-fried-tech-gear-in-hundreds-homes.html
Residents in the small Pennsylvania town of Brookville must've wondered
what on earth was going on earlier this month when a sudden power surge
caused electrical appliances and gizmos in up to 1,000 homes to fry,
explode, or simply conk out.
What may have momentarily seemed like some kind of weird supernatural
happening was actually an electrical surge caused by a failed power line
component, according to an AP report. Local media said that "damage
ranged from residents losing a refrigerator to losing all appliances in
the kitchen or losing everything in the house."
Up to a quarter of the town's 4,000 residents were thought to have been
affected by the incident, with many reporting fried computers, burned
electrical meters, and damaged power strips. Some even spoke of
fluorescent lights suddenly exploding.
When the surge occurred, the high volume of calls flooding into the
emergency services forced the local fire department to call for extra
help from three nearby facilities.
As for the local cops, the incident tripped its main office radio,
causing them to miss the first emergency calls. The first they knew
something was up was when they heard the fire trucks roaring through the
town.
"We were fortunate that nobody was hurt," Tracy Zents, the director of
Jefferson County's Department of Emergency Services, told AP.
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/( _ )\ May the Force and farces be with you!
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Full story:
http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2017/01/31/small-town-sudden-power-surge-fried-tech-gear-in-hundreds-homes.html
Residents in the small Pennsylvania town of Brookville must've wondered
what on earth was going on earlier this month when a sudden power surge
caused electrical appliances and gizmos in up to 1,000 homes to fry,
explode, or simply conk out.
What may have momentarily seemed like some kind of weird supernatural
happening was actually an electrical surge caused by a failed power line
component, according to an AP report. Local media said that "damage
ranged from residents losing a refrigerator to losing all appliances in
the kitchen or losing everything in the house."
Up to a quarter of the town's 4,000 residents were thought to have been
affected by the incident, with many reporting fried computers, burned
electrical meters, and damaged power strips. Some even spoke of
fluorescent lights suddenly exploding.
When the surge occurred, the high volume of calls flooding into the
emergency services forced the local fire department to call for extra
help from three nearby facilities.
As for the local cops, the incident tripped its main office radio,
causing them to miss the first emergency calls. The first they knew
something was up was when they heard the fire trucks roaring through the
town.
"We were fortunate that nobody was hurt," Tracy Zents, the director of
Jefferson County's Department of Emergency Services, told AP.
--
@~@ Remain silent! Drink, Blink, Stretch! Live long and prosper!!
/ v \ Simplicity is Beauty!
/( _ )\ May the Force and farces be with you!
^ ^ (x86_64 Ubuntu 9.10) Linux 2.6.39.3
不借貸! 不詐騙! 不援交! 不打交! 不打劫! 不自殺! 請考慮綜援 (CSSA):
http://www.swd.gov.hk/tc/index/site_pubsvc/page_socsecu/sub_addressesa
Jon Elson
Feb 3, 2017, 5:40:24 PM2/3/17
to
Had two circuit breakers do something odd at home. One tripped, and I
assumed somebody had a space heater and a hair dryer on at the same time or
something. Then, a breaker for my computer room tripped when I turned on a
laser printer. No unusual loads that I haven't done a hundred times before.
I unplugged the laser printer, thinking it might have given up the ghost.
When I reset the breaker, it was noticeably warm, which seemed odd, as it
was not feeding a heavy load. The laser printer and everything else was
just fine.
It took a couple hours for the breaker to cool. I can't remember for sure
if the breaker that tripped earlier had also been warm, but it might have.
So, anyway, it seems these breakers developed poor contact after just
staying turned on for several years, and needed the contacts cycled to wipe
them clean. I have some other breakers in the shop that are used as
shutoffs for various machines, and they never do this, I guess because the
contacts are exercised routinely.
Jon
assumed somebody had a space heater and a hair dryer on at the same time or
something. Then, a breaker for my computer room tripped when I turned on a
laser printer. No unusual loads that I haven't done a hundred times before.
I unplugged the laser printer, thinking it might have given up the ghost.
When I reset the breaker, it was noticeably warm, which seemed odd, as it
was not feeding a heavy load. The laser printer and everything else was
just fine.
It took a couple hours for the breaker to cool. I can't remember for sure
if the breaker that tripped earlier had also been warm, but it might have.
So, anyway, it seems these breakers developed poor contact after just
staying turned on for several years, and needed the contacts cycled to wipe
them clean. I have some other breakers in the shop that are used as
shutoffs for various machines, and they never do this, I guess because the
contacts are exercised routinely.
Jon
Ralph Mowery
Feb 3, 2017, 6:11:43 PM2/3/17
to
In article <8IOdnWLPLNJPmwjF...@giganews.com>,
jme...@wustl.edu says...
Can't help with the hot breakers.
Are the ones you are sing to cut off the machines designed to be used as
breakers and switches ? Some are and some are not. Then may become weak
and trip below he ratings if not over the years.
jme...@wustl.edu says...
Are the ones you are sing to cut off the machines designed to be used as
breakers and switches ? Some are and some are not. Then may become weak
and trip below he ratings if not over the years.
Dave Platt
Feb 3, 2017, 6:41:00 PM2/3/17
to
In article <8IOdnWLPLNJPmwjF...@giganews.com>,
In either case, it seems possible that its connection to the wiring
has deteriorated (oxidized, worked loose, etc.) and it might be
heating up at that point. If your home has any aluminum wiring, I'd
be _very_ concerned about this possibility.
I'd recommend a full re-check, with the mains power entirely
disconnected.
Jon Elson <jme...@wustl.edu> wrote:
>Had two circuit breakers do something odd at home. One tripped, and I
>assumed somebody had a space heater and a hair dryer on at the same time or
>something. Then, a breaker for my computer room tripped when I turned on a
>laser printer. No unusual loads that I haven't done a hundred times before.
>I unplugged the laser printer, thinking it might have given up the ghost.
>When I reset the breaker, it was noticeably warm, which seemed odd, as it
>was not feeding a heavy load. The laser printer and everything else was
>just fine.
>It took a couple hours for the breaker to cool. I can't remember for sure
>if the breaker that tripped earlier had also been warm, but it might have.
Is this a plug-in breaker, or one that's wired in?
>Had two circuit breakers do something odd at home. One tripped, and I
>assumed somebody had a space heater and a hair dryer on at the same time or
>something. Then, a breaker for my computer room tripped when I turned on a
>laser printer. No unusual loads that I haven't done a hundred times before.
>I unplugged the laser printer, thinking it might have given up the ghost.
>When I reset the breaker, it was noticeably warm, which seemed odd, as it
>was not feeding a heavy load. The laser printer and everything else was
>just fine.
>It took a couple hours for the breaker to cool. I can't remember for sure
>if the breaker that tripped earlier had also been warm, but it might have.
In either case, it seems possible that its connection to the wiring
has deteriorated (oxidized, worked loose, etc.) and it might be
heating up at that point. If your home has any aluminum wiring, I'd
be _very_ concerned about this possibility.
I'd recommend a full re-check, with the mains power entirely
disconnected.
Mr. Man-wai Chang
Feb 4, 2017, 7:01:15 AM2/4/17
to
On 4/02/2017 6:41 AM, Jon Elson wrote:
> It took a couple hours for the breaker to cool. I can't remember for sure
> if the breaker that tripped earlier had also been warm, but it might have.
>
> So, anyway, it seems these breakers developed poor contact after just
> staying turned on for several years, and needed the contacts cycled to wipe
> them clean. I have some other breakers in the shop that are used as
> shutoffs for various machines, and they never do this, I guess because the
> contacts are exercised routinely.
Thank you for sharing.
> It took a couple hours for the breaker to cool. I can't remember for sure
> if the breaker that tripped earlier had also been warm, but it might have.
>
> So, anyway, it seems these breakers developed poor contact after just
> staying turned on for several years, and needed the contacts cycled to wipe
> them clean. I have some other breakers in the shop that are used as
> shutoffs for various machines, and they never do this, I guess because the
> contacts are exercised routinely.
Jon Elson
Feb 4, 2017, 3:20:41 PM2/4/17
to
Dave Platt wrote:
> In article <8IOdnWLPLNJPmwjF...@giganews.com>,
> Jon Elson <jme...@wustl.edu> wrote:
>
> Is this a plug-in breaker, or one that's wired in?
It is a GE "snap in" breaker in a GE breaker panel (load center).
> In article <8IOdnWLPLNJPmwjF...@giganews.com>,
> Jon Elson <jme...@wustl.edu> wrote:
>
> Is this a plug-in breaker, or one that's wired in?
The breakers have fingers that grip a bus bar in the panel, and a screw
terminal that holds the wire.
>
> In either case, it seems possible that its connection to the wiring
> has deteriorated (oxidized, worked loose, etc.) and it might be
> heating up at that point. If your home has any aluminum wiring, I'd
> be _very_ concerned about this possibility.
>
No, NO aluminum wiring! I checked before buying!
> In either case, it seems possible that its connection to the wiring
> has deteriorated (oxidized, worked loose, etc.) and it might be
> heating up at that point. If your home has any aluminum wiring, I'd
> be _very_ concerned about this possibility.
>
> I'd recommend a full re-check, with the mains power entirely
> disconnected.
the contacts have been cleaned by cycling them, and should be OK for the
next 10 years or so.
Jon
olds...@tubes.com
Feb 4, 2017, 5:58:03 PM2/4/17
to
On Sat, 04 Feb 2017 14:20:34 -0600, Jon Elson <el...@pico-systems.com>
wrote:
I think I'd buy a spare breaker. They always fail in the middle of the
night on a weekend. They only cost $5 to $10.
I'd unplug them one at a time, and clean the contacts where they plug
into the bussbar on all of them. Also make sure you dont have some
device such as a refrigerator, sump pump etc, that may be cycling and/or
jammed. Probably would not hurt to remove and inspect every outlet on
that circuit to make sure there are no burnt wires or loose connections.
wrote:
night on a weekend. They only cost $5 to $10.
I'd unplug them one at a time, and clean the contacts where they plug
into the bussbar on all of them. Also make sure you dont have some
device such as a refrigerator, sump pump etc, that may be cycling and/or
jammed. Probably would not hurt to remove and inspect every outlet on
that circuit to make sure there are no burnt wires or loose connections.
John Robertson
Feb 4, 2017, 6:23:10 PM2/4/17
to
with a new one, moving it to an unused nockout spot. Chances are the bus
bar has been damaged as well as the breaker at the spot where the hot
breaker was put and you can't trust connections at that point on the bus
line any more.
Had this happen to a friends breaker box - burnt connection on the
breaker also damaged the bus bar at that point. New breaker in a new
spot and all was well. It probably hadn't been seated properly and just
gradually corroded enough to be noticeable.
John :-#)#
--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
(604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
bruce2...@gmail.com
Feb 4, 2017, 6:23:22 PM2/4/17
to
- hide quoted text -
Maybe you could've taken them to the scrap yard, but since you decided to keep them, how did you cycle them to make their connects better?
Michael Moroney
Feb 8, 2017, 12:11:30 PM2/8/17
to
"Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet...@gmail.com> writes:
>A small town's sudden power surge fried tech gear in hundreds of homes
>Full story:
>http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2017/01/31/small-town-sudden-power-surge-fried-tech-gear-in-hundreds-homes.html
>Residents in the small Pennsylvania town of Brookville must've wondered
>what on earth was going on earlier this month when a sudden power surge
>caused electrical appliances and gizmos in up to 1,000 homes to fry,
>explode, or simply conk out.
>What may have momentarily seemed like some kind of weird supernatural
>happening was actually an electrical surge caused by a failed power line
>component, according to an AP report. Local media said that "damage
>ranged from residents losing a refrigerator to losing all appliances in
>the kitchen or losing everything in the house."
Interesting how a failed insulator could have caused this. How often are
>A small town's sudden power surge fried tech gear in hundreds of homes
>Full story:
>http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2017/01/31/small-town-sudden-power-surge-fried-tech-gear-in-hundreds-homes.html
>Residents in the small Pennsylvania town of Brookville must've wondered
>what on earth was going on earlier this month when a sudden power surge
>caused electrical appliances and gizmos in up to 1,000 homes to fry,
>explode, or simply conk out.
>What may have momentarily seemed like some kind of weird supernatural
>happening was actually an electrical surge caused by a failed power line
>component, according to an AP report. Local media said that "damage
>ranged from residents losing a refrigerator to losing all appliances in
>the kitchen or losing everything in the house."
distribution circuits of different voltages connected together but
separated by only a single insulator?
Up the street from me, they upgraded a MV distribution circuit from a lower
voltage to a higher one (13,800V I believe). But a portion of it they
decided to leave at the lower voltage, probably because there are a bunch
of pad-mounted transformers feeding businesses there they didn't want to
replace. They decided to feed that section from the far end through a
bank of transformers, but where that section was once connected to the
now upgraded section, they put in multiple breaks so that a single failed
insulator or a lineman doing the wrong thing won't connect the two
circuits. An underground feeder had its fuses removed, wires connecting
the fuse holders were removed and the line from the pole with the
underground feeder to the next pole had insulators spliced in the middle.
At least 3 breaks.
I've also seen the results of that type of surge. The top of a pole broke
in a storm and the 4800V MV distribution wires made contact with the
120V/240V feed to houses. Two of them burned to the ground.
Mr. Man-wai Chang
Feb 8, 2017, 2:41:22 PM2/8/17
to
On 9/02/2017 1:11 AM, Michael Moroney wrote:
>....
>....
> I've also seen the results of that type of surge. The top of a pole broke
> in a storm and the 4800V MV distribution wires made contact with the
> 120V/240V feed to houses. Two of them burned to the ground.
Thank you for sharing!
> in a storm and the 4800V MV distribution wires made contact with the
> 120V/240V feed to houses. Two of them burned to the ground.
James Wilkinson Sword
Feb 8, 2017, 2:46:18 PM2/8/17
to
--
A highway patrolman pulled alongside a speeding car on the freeway. Glancing at the car, he was astounded to see that the blonde behind the wheel was knitting!
Realizing that she was oblivious to his flashing lights and siren, the trooper cranked down his window, turned on his bullhorn and yelled, "PULL OVER!"
"NO!" the blonde yelled back, "IT'S A SCARF!"
Phil Hobbs
Feb 8, 2017, 4:55:02 PM2/8/17
to
I've heard of folks getting MOVs put in right at the meter, outside the
house. In that sort of super nasty surge, they explode and isolate the
house from the line. Never had the urge to do it myself, but it might
be good insurance.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net
James Wilkinson Sword
Feb 8, 2017, 5:00:28 PM2/8/17
to
--
What's the difference between PMS and Mad Cow Disease?
The number of tits.
Phil Hobbs
Feb 8, 2017, 5:12:55 PM2/8/17
to
energy 1600-4800V circuit with a domestic 240V breaker, that's for sure.
The result is an _arc flash_, which you do _not_ want in your
vicinity, trust me. (Youtube has a lot of examples if you doubt this.)
Having a major league arc flash on a cinderblock foundation outside the
house is a very different proposition from having one in a breaker box
mounted to a wooden stud wall inside, for one thing, but I'm outside my
experience here, so I'll happily defer to any actual power engineering
types who want to chime in.
James Wilkinson Sword
Feb 8, 2017, 5:18:17 PM2/8/17
to
--
If the English language made any sense, lackadaisical would have something to do with a shortage of flowers.
Phil Hobbs
Feb 8, 2017, 5:22:17 PM2/8/17
to
you can say I agree. ;)
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
James Wilkinson Sword
Feb 8, 2017, 5:32:18 PM2/8/17
to
averaging the correct value, and should be adjusted more accurately, but the power company doesn't give a shit.
Colonel Edmund J. Burke
Feb 8, 2017, 5:57:28 PM2/8/17
to
I'll take two tacos and a side of frys.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Feb 8, 2017, 7:17:28 PM2/8/17
to
On Wed, 8 Feb 2017 17:22:27 -0500, Phil Hobbs
A truck hit a padmounted transformer about 100 ft from my dad's
house, shorting the primary to the secondaty momentarily before
tripping the fuse. It blew the fuse in his then- new TV and blew one
or two bulbe - but destroyed half the appliances in the house next
door. I fixed the TV - Dad replaced the bulbs, and Waterloo North
Hydro's and the truck driver's insurance replaced the neighbours
appliances. The transformer made a BIG BANG when the circuit protector
blew.
house, shorting the primary to the secondaty momentarily before
tripping the fuse. It blew the fuse in his then- new TV and blew one
or two bulbe - but destroyed half the appliances in the house next
door. I fixed the TV - Dad replaced the bulbs, and Waterloo North
Hydro's and the truck driver's insurance replaced the neighbours
appliances. The transformer made a BIG BANG when the circuit protector
blew.
James Wilkinson Sword
Feb 8, 2017, 7:21:29 PM2/8/17
to
--
During the weekly Lamaze class, the instructor emphasized the importance of exercise, hinting strongly that husbands need to get out and start walking with their wives.
From the back of the room one expectant father inquired, "Would it be okay if she carries a bag of golf clubs while she walks?"
Mark F
Feb 9, 2017, 9:23:25 AM2/9/17
to
On Wed, 08 Feb 2017 19:17:25 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote in part:
> >>>>>>> http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2017/01/31/small-town-sudden-power-surge-fried-tech-gear-in-hundreds-homes.html
> >>>>>>> Residents in the small Pennsylvania town of Brookville must've
> >>>>>>> wondered
> >>>>>>> what on earth was going on earlier this month when a sudden power
> >>>>>>> surge
> >>>>>>> caused electrical appliances and gizmos in up to 1,000 homes to fry,
> >>>>>>> explode, or simply conk out.
At least 5 different times in 15 years my house has had 1 or 2 devices
> >>>>>>> http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2017/01/31/small-town-sudden-power-surge-fried-tech-gear-in-hundreds-homes.html
> >>>>>>> Residents in the small Pennsylvania town of Brookville must've
> >>>>>>> wondered
> >>>>>>> what on earth was going on earlier this month when a sudden power
> >>>>>>> surge
> >>>>>>> caused electrical appliances and gizmos in up to 1,000 homes to fry,
> >>>>>>> explode, or simply conk out.
die immediately when there was lighting around or someone ran into a
power pole. At least 4 times 1 or more devices failed within a couple
of weeks.
I'd say all appliances should be replaced by the power company if any
in the house failed, or at least anything that fails in the next 5
years should be replaced when it fails.
Also: A UPS is more likely to get fried itself in the cases like
in the above report. House MOV seems like the only hope to
protect from these events.
James Wilkinson Sword
Feb 9, 2017, 10:20:23 AM2/9/17
to
--
Went to the pub with my girlfriend last night.
Locals were shouting "paedophile!" and other names at me, just because my girlfriend is 21 and I'm 50.
It completely spoilt our 10th anniversary.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Feb 9, 2017, 1:24:24 PM2/9/17
to
On Thu, 09 Feb 2017 09:23:17 -0500, Mark F <mark...@gmail.com>
wrote:
I installed a whole house surge protector in my new panel last year.
I figured it was cheap insurance.
wrote:
I figured it was cheap insurance.
Michael Moroney
Feb 9, 2017, 4:42:41 PM2/9/17
to
"James Wilkinson Sword" <imv...@somewear.com> writes:
>On Wed, 08 Feb 2017 22:13:00 -0000, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>> On 02/08/2017 05:00 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
>>> On Wed, 08 Feb 2017 21:55:06 -0000, Phil Hobbs
>>> <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 02/08/2017 02:46 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 01 Feb 2017 17:31:50 -0000, Mr. Man-wai Chang
>>>>> <toylet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> A small town's sudden power surge fried tech gear in hundreds of homes
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>On Wed, 08 Feb 2017 22:13:00 -0000, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>> On 02/08/2017 05:00 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
>>> On Wed, 08 Feb 2017 21:55:06 -0000, Phil Hobbs
>>> <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 02/08/2017 02:46 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 01 Feb 2017 17:31:50 -0000, Mr. Man-wai Chang
>>>>> <toylet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> A small town's sudden power surge fried tech gear in hundreds of homes
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You should have anything expensive in a UPS.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Big help if the house burns down. :(
>>>>
>>>> I've heard of folks getting MOVs put in right at the meter, outside the
>>>> house. In that sort of super nasty surge, they explode and isolate the
>>>> house from the line. Never had the urge to do it myself, but it might
>>>> be good insurance.
>>>
>>> Wouldn't a really big surge destroy the first thing it hits, i.e. the
>>> main fuse, meter, etc?
>>>
>>
>> It matters where the big arc happens, though. You don't clear a high
>> energy 1600-4800V circuit with a domestic 240V breaker, that's for sure.
>> The result is an _arc flash_, which you do _not_ want in your
>> vicinity, trust me. (Youtube has a lot of examples if you doubt this.)
>>
>> Having a major league arc flash on a cinderblock foundation outside the
>> house is a very different proposition from having one in a breaker box
>> mounted to a wooden stud wall inside, for one thing, but I'm outside my
>> experience here, so I'll happily defer to any actual power engineering
>> types who want to chime in.
>I can't believe it's that likely for 4800V to get onto a 240V line. Possible, but so rare it's not worth bothering to install protection. I protect against little spikes, or voltages about 30V under/over what they should be. My UPS frequently adjusts the voltage, and sometimes gives up and runs the house on batteries for 5 seconds.
Well, it did happen to us. The pole with the transformer broke between the
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Big help if the house burns down. :(
>>>>
>>>> I've heard of folks getting MOVs put in right at the meter, outside the
>>>> house. In that sort of super nasty surge, they explode and isolate the
>>>> house from the line. Never had the urge to do it myself, but it might
>>>> be good insurance.
>>>
>>> Wouldn't a really big surge destroy the first thing it hits, i.e. the
>>> main fuse, meter, etc?
>>>
>>
>> It matters where the big arc happens, though. You don't clear a high
>> energy 1600-4800V circuit with a domestic 240V breaker, that's for sure.
>> The result is an _arc flash_, which you do _not_ want in your
>> vicinity, trust me. (Youtube has a lot of examples if you doubt this.)
>>
>> Having a major league arc flash on a cinderblock foundation outside the
>> house is a very different proposition from having one in a breaker box
>> mounted to a wooden stud wall inside, for one thing, but I'm outside my
>> experience here, so I'll happily defer to any actual power engineering
>> types who want to chime in.
>I can't believe it's that likely for 4800V to get onto a 240V line. Possible, but so rare it's not worth bothering to install protection. I protect against little spikes, or voltages about 30V under/over what they should be. My UPS frequently adjusts the voltage, and sometimes gives up and runs the house on batteries for 5 seconds.
transformer and the crossarm at the top, partly because it was an old pole
with ants living in the part that broke and partly because of the winter
storm. I saw the aftermath and even still have the two 4800V cutouts
that fed the transformer. This was a bunch of summer cottages on a lake.
Two of them burned to the ground. Our place was on the same transformer
but because my father always threw the main breaker when closing up the
place it was unaffected.
Diesel
Feb 9, 2017, 9:36:49 PM2/9/17
to
"James Wilkinson Sword" <imv...@somewear.com>
news:op.yvcw7...@red.lan Wed, 08 Feb 2017 19:46:14 GMT in
The UPS would have fried as well under those conditions. And,
depending on internal UPS design characteristics, may/may not have
done any good for the device plugged into it. It depends on several
things. Which lines got energized way above the normal voltage and
for how long. Is the UPS truely seperating the inverter/battery
backup from the main AC line, or, is it a cheaper unit where the
plugins aren't actually isolated from the main incoming power? IE: is
it really running the out plugs on battery via inverter or, is it
also supplying filtered power while the AC is good via the ac lines
feeding the UPS?
If it's isolating the battery and charging circuitry then, your risk
of being toasted if something roasts the ups is smaller, but, not by
much.
--
Sarcasm, because beating the living shit out of deserving people is
illegal.
news:op.yvcw7...@red.lan Wed, 08 Feb 2017 19:46:14 GMT in
depending on internal UPS design characteristics, may/may not have
done any good for the device plugged into it. It depends on several
things. Which lines got energized way above the normal voltage and
for how long. Is the UPS truely seperating the inverter/battery
backup from the main AC line, or, is it a cheaper unit where the
plugins aren't actually isolated from the main incoming power? IE: is
it really running the out plugs on battery via inverter or, is it
also supplying filtered power while the AC is good via the ac lines
feeding the UPS?
If it's isolating the battery and charging circuitry then, your risk
of being toasted if something roasts the ups is smaller, but, not by
much.
--
Sarcasm, because beating the living shit out of deserving people is
illegal.
Diesel
Feb 9, 2017, 9:36:49 PM2/9/17
to
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net>
news:g-ydnT1t59wzDgbF...@supernews.com Wed, 08 Feb 2017
I've been onsite a few times when the MOVs have kicked in and done
their job. It greatly reduces harm to the electrical system and
devices attached inside the home. However, if the surge is strong
enough, it'll momentarily arc across the now opened lines and temp
energize the home. It's still better than maintaining a direct (but
burning) link, though.
news:g-ydnT1t59wzDgbF...@supernews.com Wed, 08 Feb 2017
their job. It greatly reduces harm to the electrical system and
devices attached inside the home. However, if the surge is strong
enough, it'll momentarily arc across the now opened lines and temp
energize the home. It's still better than maintaining a direct (but
burning) link, though.
Diesel
Feb 9, 2017, 9:36:49 PM2/9/17
to
mor...@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney)
news:o7fjft$sj3$1...@pcls7.std.com Wed, 08 Feb 2017 17:11:25 GMT in
etc? What was the previous voltage?
> I've also seen the results of that type of surge. The top of a
> pole broke in a storm and the 4800V MV distribution wires made
> contact with the 120V/240V feed to houses. Two of them burned to
> the ground.
Ouch! I've seen this happen before too. Doesn't typically end well for
the building and/or the electrical system/attached devices inside.
news:o7fjft$sj3$1...@pcls7.std.com Wed, 08 Feb 2017 17:11:25 GMT in
alt.home.repair, wrote:
> Up the street from me, they upgraded a MV distribution circuit
> from a lower voltage to a higher one (13,800V I believe).
Have they been adding on to the circuits in your area? New buildings,
> Up the street from me, they upgraded a MV distribution circuit
> from a lower voltage to a higher one (13,800V I believe).
etc? What was the previous voltage?
> I've also seen the results of that type of surge. The top of a
> pole broke in a storm and the 4800V MV distribution wires made
> contact with the 120V/240V feed to houses. Two of them burned to
> the ground.
the building and/or the electrical system/attached devices inside.
Diesel
Feb 9, 2017, 9:36:50 PM2/9/17
to
Mark F <mark...@gmail.com>
news:sfuo9cdb3cjd6lo39...@4ax.com Thu, 09 Feb 2017
anything in a home due to an electrical malfunction that was their
fault. As far as they seem to be concerned, your appliances and
protection for them is your responsibility. Even if their transformer
sends way too much juice to your house, that's somehow, not their
fault.
I can understand their position on it, but, I also see it from the
owner of now dead electronics/electrical devices in their home.
> Also: A UPS is more likely to get fried itself in the cases like
> in the above report. House MOV seems like the only hope to
> protect from these events.
They do a reasonably decent job too. However, they cannot do a damn
thing if the incoming voltage has enough amps to jump across the now
open lines inside the meter box. If the current is high enough, a
couple of inches of space isn't going to make a difference, it'll
jump (it's not a stable connection, but it's a connection) across and
complete the previously opened circuits. It won't be able to maintain
it for very long, assuming other safety circuits are kicking in
around this time and shutting it down, OR, it finally burns enough
off during the arc jump that it can't hold anymore. Until one or both
happens though, your house is being energized, and likely way more
than anything plugged in inside the house is going to be happy with.
news:sfuo9cdb3cjd6lo39...@4ax.com Thu, 09 Feb 2017
14:23:17 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:
> I'd say all appliances should be replaced by the power company if
> any in the house failed, or at least anything that fails in the
> next 5 years should be replaced when it fails.
I've had very little success getting power companies to replace
> I'd say all appliances should be replaced by the power company if
> any in the house failed, or at least anything that fails in the
> next 5 years should be replaced when it fails.
anything in a home due to an electrical malfunction that was their
fault. As far as they seem to be concerned, your appliances and
protection for them is your responsibility. Even if their transformer
sends way too much juice to your house, that's somehow, not their
fault.
I can understand their position on it, but, I also see it from the
owner of now dead electronics/electrical devices in their home.
> Also: A UPS is more likely to get fried itself in the cases like
> in the above report. House MOV seems like the only hope to
> protect from these events.
thing if the incoming voltage has enough amps to jump across the now
open lines inside the meter box. If the current is high enough, a
couple of inches of space isn't going to make a difference, it'll
jump (it's not a stable connection, but it's a connection) across and
complete the previously opened circuits. It won't be able to maintain
it for very long, assuming other safety circuits are kicking in
around this time and shutting it down, OR, it finally burns enough
off during the arc jump that it can't hold anymore. Until one or both
happens though, your house is being energized, and likely way more
than anything plugged in inside the house is going to be happy with.
Diesel
Feb 9, 2017, 9:36:53 PM2/9/17
to
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net>
news:W_-dnWu08oZ9CgbF...@supernews.com Wed, 08 Feb 2017
the arc flash that does the most damage if the voltage/amperage is
high enough. It can turn your organs into mush before the fireball
gets close enough to light you up.
> Having a major league arc flash on a cinderblock foundation
> outside the house is a very different proposition from having one
> in a breaker box mounted to a wooden stud wall inside, for one
> thing, but I'm outside my experience here, so I'll happily defer
> to any actual power engineering types who want to chime in.
When I'm tasked with the job of bringing circuits online, I tend to
do it with a long plastic stick at an angle; I'm stepping off to the
side. This way, if something is wrong, I don't get the shockwave and
arc flash right in my face. Nothing like finishing out a premod home
only to findout one or more wires wasn't labeled correctly and one is
actually about to feed 120 into the live side of a 120volt breaker
that's living on the other leg. So, when you turn this breaker on,
you're actually running both legs into each other on that breaker. It
shoots fire out the sides and hums something awful before it trips
right back out. :)
Atleast with the cinderblock foundation, it's essentially an open
environment so the arc flash and shockwave can dissipate faster. When
it's enclosed (as in, inside a panel), it can be much more
devastating. Not only for the panel and it's guts, but, yours too.
news:W_-dnWu08oZ9CgbF...@supernews.com Wed, 08 Feb 2017
22:13:00 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:
> It matters where the big arc happens, though. You don't clear a
> high energy 1600-4800V circuit with a domestic 240V breaker,
> that's for sure.
> The result is an _arc flash_, which you do _not_ want in your
> vicinity, trust me. (Youtube has a lot of examples if you doubt
> this.)
The arc flash isn't even the big killer. It's the shockwave ahead of
> It matters where the big arc happens, though. You don't clear a
> high energy 1600-4800V circuit with a domestic 240V breaker,
> that's for sure.
> The result is an _arc flash_, which you do _not_ want in your
> vicinity, trust me. (Youtube has a lot of examples if you doubt
> this.)
the arc flash that does the most damage if the voltage/amperage is
high enough. It can turn your organs into mush before the fireball
gets close enough to light you up.
> Having a major league arc flash on a cinderblock foundation
> outside the house is a very different proposition from having one
> in a breaker box mounted to a wooden stud wall inside, for one
> thing, but I'm outside my experience here, so I'll happily defer
> to any actual power engineering types who want to chime in.
do it with a long plastic stick at an angle; I'm stepping off to the
side. This way, if something is wrong, I don't get the shockwave and
arc flash right in my face. Nothing like finishing out a premod home
only to findout one or more wires wasn't labeled correctly and one is
actually about to feed 120 into the live side of a 120volt breaker
that's living on the other leg. So, when you turn this breaker on,
you're actually running both legs into each other on that breaker. It
shoots fire out the sides and hums something awful before it trips
right back out. :)
Atleast with the cinderblock foundation, it's essentially an open
environment so the arc flash and shockwave can dissipate faster. When
it's enclosed (as in, inside a panel), it can be much more
devastating. Not only for the panel and it's guts, but, yours too.
Michael Moroney
Feb 10, 2017, 12:52:36 AM2/10/17
to
Diesel <m...@privacy.net> writes:
>mor...@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney)
>news:o7fjft$sj3$1...@pcls7.std.com Wed, 08 Feb 2017 17:11:25 GMT in
>alt.home.repair, wrote:
>> Up the street from me, they upgraded a MV distribution circuit
>> from a lower voltage to a higher one (13,800V I believe).
>Have they been adding on to the circuits in your area? New buildings,
>etc? What was the previous voltage?
No new construction/new loads in that area. It may have been done to
>mor...@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney)
>news:o7fjft$sj3$1...@pcls7.std.com Wed, 08 Feb 2017 17:11:25 GMT in
>alt.home.repair, wrote:
>> Up the street from me, they upgraded a MV distribution circuit
>> from a lower voltage to a higher one (13,800V I believe).
>Have they been adding on to the circuits in your area? New buildings,
>etc? What was the previous voltage?
allow that circuit to provide an additional 13.8K feed to a medical center
a ways upstream. I am uncertain of the old voltage but the nameplate for a
regulator transformer on a nearby old circuit reads 2400V which seems kind
of low. The utility seems to have been upgrading other older/lower voltage
circuits in the area as well.
Tzortzakakis Dimitrios
Feb 10, 2017, 8:35:37 AM2/10/17
to
Usually we don't have accidents of the primary messing with the
secondary. MV distribution is all around the city with buried cables,
some of them are very old, with paper insulation. However, there was a
bad accident where a lineman was connecting a new supermaket to a 20kV
circuit, there were two buried cables, and they have a special device
that checks if the cable is live. So he checked and it wasn't. But back
at the substation they energized it and the arc flash instantly killed
him, and temporary blinding everyone at the vicinity.And in the
Thessaloniki substation, a potential transformer exploded (400 kV) and
the debris destroyed an auto transformer (400/150 kV) and there were
serious problems with power for the whole area. I have a surge power
strip on my computer and when I turn my PC off I throw both the PSU
switch and the power strip one. On my stereo I have a voltage regulator
and when off I throw the VR's switch, the power strip's and the amp's.
That should be enough. If there's an 20kV surge the PC and the stereo
would be the least of my worries.
Phil Hobbs
Feb 10, 2017, 10:47:28 AM2/10/17
to
On 02/10/2017 12:52 AM, Michael Moroney wrote:
> Diesel <m...@privacy.net> writes:
>
>> mor...@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney)
>> news:o7fjft$sj3$1...@pcls7.std.com Wed, 08 Feb 2017 17:11:25 GMT in
>> alt.home.repair, wrote:
>
>>> Up the street from me, they upgraded a MV distribution circuit
>>> from a lower voltage to a higher one (13,800V I believe).
>
>> Have they been adding on to the circuits in your area? New buildings,
>> etc? What was the previous voltage?
>
> No new construction/new loads in that area. It may have been done to
> allow that circuit to provide an additional 13.8K feed to a medical center
> a ways upstream. I am uncertain of the old voltage but the nameplate for a
> regulator transformer on a nearby old circuit reads 2400V which seems kind
> of low. The utility seems to have been upgrading other older/lower voltage
> circuits in the area as well.
In my neighbourhood the top line is usually 1600V, with one or a few
> Diesel <m...@privacy.net> writes:
>
>> mor...@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney)
>> news:o7fjft$sj3$1...@pcls7.std.com Wed, 08 Feb 2017 17:11:25 GMT in
>> alt.home.repair, wrote:
>
>>> Up the street from me, they upgraded a MV distribution circuit
>>> from a lower voltage to a higher one (13,800V I believe).
>
>> Have they been adding on to the circuits in your area? New buildings,
>> etc? What was the previous voltage?
>
> No new construction/new loads in that area. It may have been done to
> allow that circuit to provide an additional 13.8K feed to a medical center
> a ways upstream. I am uncertain of the old voltage but the nameplate for a
> regulator transformer on a nearby old circuit reads 2400V which seems kind
> of low. The utility seems to have been upgrading other older/lower voltage
> circuits in the area as well.
pole pigs per block to make 120-0-120V. Of course we're about half a
mile from the substation.
et...@whidbey.com
Feb 10, 2017, 12:33:33 PM2/10/17
to
On Fri, 10 Feb 2017 10:48:18 -0500, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>On 02/10/2017 12:52 AM, Michael Moroney wrote:
>> Diesel <m...@privacy.net> writes:
>>
>>> mor...@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney)
>>> news:o7fjft$sj3$1...@pcls7.std.com Wed, 08 Feb 2017 17:11:25 GMT in
>>> alt.home.repair, wrote:
>>
>>>> Up the street from me, they upgraded a MV distribution circuit
>>>> from a lower voltage to a higher one (13,800V I believe).
>>
>>> Have they been adding on to the circuits in your area? New buildings,
>>> etc? What was the previous voltage?
>>
>> No new construction/new loads in that area. It may have been done to
>> allow that circuit to provide an additional 13.8K feed to a medical center
>> a ways upstream. I am uncertain of the old voltage but the nameplate for a
>> regulator transformer on a nearby old circuit reads 2400V which seems kind
>> of low. The utility seems to have been upgrading other older/lower voltage
>> circuits in the area as well.
>
>In my neighbourhood the top line is usually 1600V, with one or a few
>pole pigs per block to make 120-0-120V. Of course we're about half a
>mile from the substation.
>
>Cheers
>
>Phil Hobbs
The top line running down my street is 7200 volts. Maybe that's
<pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>On 02/10/2017 12:52 AM, Michael Moroney wrote:
>> Diesel <m...@privacy.net> writes:
>>
>>> mor...@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney)
>>> news:o7fjft$sj3$1...@pcls7.std.com Wed, 08 Feb 2017 17:11:25 GMT in
>>> alt.home.repair, wrote:
>>
>>>> Up the street from me, they upgraded a MV distribution circuit
>>>> from a lower voltage to a higher one (13,800V I believe).
>>
>>> Have they been adding on to the circuits in your area? New buildings,
>>> etc? What was the previous voltage?
>>
>> No new construction/new loads in that area. It may have been done to
>> allow that circuit to provide an additional 13.8K feed to a medical center
>> a ways upstream. I am uncertain of the old voltage but the nameplate for a
>> regulator transformer on a nearby old circuit reads 2400V which seems kind
>> of low. The utility seems to have been upgrading other older/lower voltage
>> circuits in the area as well.
>
>In my neighbourhood the top line is usually 1600V, with one or a few
>pole pigs per block to make 120-0-120V. Of course we're about half a
>mile from the substation.
>
>Cheers
>
>Phil Hobbs
because I live in a rural area. It seems high to me but the guy from
PSE told me that it is not unusual, at least where I live.
Eric
Jon Elson
Feb 13, 2017, 5:23:02 PM2/13/17
to
Phil Hobbs wrote:
> In my neighbourhood the top line is usually 1600V, with one or a few
> pole pigs per block to make 120-0-120V. Of course we're about half a
> mile from the substation.
>
Interesting, they run 7200 V here. I read the plate on a transformer when
> In my neighbourhood the top line is usually 1600V, with one or a few
> pole pigs per block to make 120-0-120V. Of course we're about half a
> mile from the substation.
>
it was down on the ground for replacement.
So, anybody know how the folks in Brookville are getting their lives back
together? With the burned siding and meters in some pictures, I doubt much
electrical in those houses survived. Everything from light bulbs to the
breaker panels and in-wall wiring might need to be replaced. I guess
electrical contractors are going to be busy for some time.
Jon
Jon Elson
Feb 13, 2017, 5:25:20 PM2/13/17
to
bruce2...@gmail.com wrote:
> Maybe you could've taken them to the scrap yard, but since you decided to
> keep them, how did you cycle them to make their connects better?
The breaker was in the tripped position, half way between On and Off. I
flipped it to Off, and then back to On. I have checked a few times, no sign
of heating anymore.
Jon
> Maybe you could've taken them to the scrap yard, but since you decided to
> keep them, how did you cycle them to make their connects better?
The breaker was in the tripped position, half way between On and Off. I
flipped it to Off, and then back to On. I have checked a few times, no sign
of heating anymore.
Jon
David Lesher
Mar 9, 2017, 11:41:39 AM3/9/17
to
The Washington Post had some great photos of a house with every
outlet and switch blown out of the walls.
Seems there was a FIOS installer trenching there when it
happened. The WP didn't say, but from the imagery, I suspect
they crossed the 34KV feed to the pictured pad-mount transformer
with its 240/120 output.
It was news because Verizontal refused to pay; saying it
was the contractor's fault not theirs.
--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close..........................
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
James Wilkinson Sword
Mar 9, 2017, 11:45:28 AM3/9/17
to
On Thu, 09 Mar 2017 16:41:37 -0000, David Lesher <wb8...@panix.com> wrote:
>
> The Washington Post had some great photos of a house with every
> outlet and switch blown out of the walls.
>
> Seems there was a FIOS installer trenching there when it
> happened. The WP didn't say, but from the imagery, I suspect
> they crossed the 34KV feed to the pictured pad-mount transformer
> with its 240/120 output.
>
> It was news because Verizontal refused to pay; saying it
> was the contractor's fault not theirs.
Which it was. But the contractor should have to pay, and Verizon has to pay in the interim, just as if you order something online and it's lost in the post, it's the postal company's fault, but you still claim from the seller, and the seller from the postal company.
>
> The Washington Post had some great photos of a house with every
> outlet and switch blown out of the walls.
>
> Seems there was a FIOS installer trenching there when it
> happened. The WP didn't say, but from the imagery, I suspect
> they crossed the 34KV feed to the pictured pad-mount transformer
> with its 240/120 output.
>
> It was news because Verizontal refused to pay; saying it
> was the contractor's fault not theirs.
--
My wife and I were watching Who Wants To Be A Millionaire while we were in bed.
I turned to her and said, "Do you want to have sex?"
"No," she answered.
I then said, "Is that your final answer?"
She didn't even look at me this time, simply saying, "Yes...."
So I said, "Then I'd like to phone a friend."
And that's when the fight started...
burfordTjustice
Mar 9, 2017, 11:52:03 AM3/9/17
to
On Thu, 09 Mar 2017 16:45:25 -0000
"James Wilkinson Sword" <imv...@somewear.com> wrote:
> it's the postal company's fault, but you still claim from the seller,
> and the seller from the postal company.
Wrong again.
"James Wilkinson Sword" <imv...@somewear.com> wrote:
> it's the postal company's fault, but you still claim from the seller,
> and the seller from the postal company.
David Lesher
Mar 11, 2017, 9:41:59 PM3/11/17
to
>> It was news because Verizontal refused to pay; saying it
>> was the contractor's fault not theirs.
>Which it was. But the contractor should have to pay, and
>Verizon has to pay in the interim, just as if you order
>something online and it's lost in the post, it's the postal
>company's fault, but you still claim from the seller, and the
>seller from the postal company.
Have you ever won an argument with Verizontal?
>> was the contractor's fault not theirs.
>Which it was. But the contractor should have to pay, and
>Verizon has to pay in the interim, just as if you order
>something online and it's lost in the post, it's the postal
>company's fault, but you still claim from the seller, and the
>seller from the postal company.
John Robertson
Mar 11, 2017, 9:53:14 PM3/11/17
to
On 2017/02/03 2:41 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> Had two circuit breakers do something odd at home. One tripped, and I
> assumed somebody had a space heater and a hair dryer on at the same time or
> something. Then, a breaker for my computer room tripped when I turned on a
> laser printer. No unusual loads that I haven't done a hundred times before.
> I unplugged the laser printer, thinking it might have given up the ghost.
> When I reset the breaker, it was noticeably warm, which seemed odd, as it
> was not feeding a heavy load. The laser printer and everything else was
> just fine.
> It took a couple hours for the breaker to cool. I can't remember for sure
> if the breaker that tripped earlier had also been warm, but it might have.
>
> So, anyway, it seems these breakers developed poor contact after just
> staying turned on for several years, and needed the contacts cycled to wipe
> them clean. I have some other breakers in the shop that are used as
> shutoffs for various machines, and they never do this, I guess because the
> contacts are exercised routinely.
>
> Jon
>
It is not the breaker per se that was overheating here, it was the
breakers contacts to the power bus! I suggest you take that breaker out
(safely!!) and check for signs of overheated junction pins on both the
breaker wipers and the bus tab.
Had this happen to a friend and it could have been nasty if they hadn't
noticed it.
John
--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
(604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
> Had two circuit breakers do something odd at home. One tripped, and I
> assumed somebody had a space heater and a hair dryer on at the same time or
> something. Then, a breaker for my computer room tripped when I turned on a
> laser printer. No unusual loads that I haven't done a hundred times before.
> I unplugged the laser printer, thinking it might have given up the ghost.
> When I reset the breaker, it was noticeably warm, which seemed odd, as it
> was not feeding a heavy load. The laser printer and everything else was
> just fine.
> It took a couple hours for the breaker to cool. I can't remember for sure
> if the breaker that tripped earlier had also been warm, but it might have.
>
> So, anyway, it seems these breakers developed poor contact after just
> staying turned on for several years, and needed the contacts cycled to wipe
> them clean. I have some other breakers in the shop that are used as
> shutoffs for various machines, and they never do this, I guess because the
> contacts are exercised routinely.
>
> Jon
>
It is not the breaker per se that was overheating here, it was the
breakers contacts to the power bus! I suggest you take that breaker out
(safely!!) and check for signs of overheated junction pins on both the
breaker wipers and the bus tab.
Had this happen to a friend and it could have been nasty if they hadn't
noticed it.
John
--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
(604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
James Wilkinson Sword
Mar 12, 2017, 3:35:32 PM3/12/17
to
On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 02:41:57 -0000, David Lesher <wb8...@panix.com> wrote:
> "James Wilkinson Sword" <imv...@somewear.com> writes:
>
>>> It was news because Verizontal refused to pay; saying it
>>> was the contractor's fault not theirs.
>
>> Which it was. But the contractor should have to pay, and
>> Verizon has to pay in the interim, just as if you order
>> something online and it's lost in the post, it's the postal
>> company's fault, but you still claim from the seller, and the
>> seller from the postal company.
>
> Have you ever won an argument with Verizontal?
I'm not in the same country as them.
> "James Wilkinson Sword" <imv...@somewear.com> writes:
>
>>> It was news because Verizontal refused to pay; saying it
>>> was the contractor's fault not theirs.
>
>> Which it was. But the contractor should have to pay, and
>> Verizon has to pay in the interim, just as if you order
>> something online and it's lost in the post, it's the postal
>> company's fault, but you still claim from the seller, and the
>> seller from the postal company.
>
> Have you ever won an argument with Verizontal?
--
How many potheads does it take to change a light bulb?
Two. One to hold the bulb against the socket, and the other to smoke up until the room starts spinning.
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