Rega RB300 turntable...
Arfa Daily
Anyone happen to know the value of the resistor in the CR network connected
in the synchronous motor feed ? Looks like brown - red - brown so 120 ohms,
but it's well overheated and discoloured, with a nice burn mark right around
the spiral element, right in the centre. Can't get a reading from either end
to the burn point. Looks at a guess to be rated about 3 -5 watts. Anybody
think of a reason *not* to use a wirewound rather than the original metal
film type ?
Arfa
N_Cook
news:Gx7In.61132$6C.5...@newsfe15.ams2...
Wasn't Rega tonearms only?
What sort of vintage is the deck? Is it definitely for use on 240V mains ?
--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://diverse.4mg.com/index.htm
Adam Sampson
> Wasn't Rega tonearms only?
No, but the RB300 is indeed a tonearm, rather than a turntable. There
are PDF manuals on vinylengine.com for a bunch of Rega tonearms and
turntables which might help identify what the deck actually is.
It's worth noting that the discussion on the page for the Planar 3
(which would be a plausible turntable to have an RB300 fitted) has some
comments on replacement motor resistor values, with one comment
suggesting 150 ohm 5%:
http://www.vinylengine.com/library/rega/planar-3.shtml
--
Adam Sampson <a...@offog.org> <http://offog.org/>
Arfa Daily
"N_Cook" <div...@tcp.co.uk> wrote in message
news:hsr215$lak$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Well, sort of. I guess that the full deck is probably a Rega Planar 3, but
definitely a Rega-original product. There is a "Grahams HiFi London" tested
sticker on the bottom with a handwritten date of '86 on it. There is a
manufacturer's label on the bottom also saying "rega Made in Britain" and
"Rega Research Ltd"
To the best of my knowledge, it has always been used here in the UK.The
motor is a synchronous type, 4 wire, and marked 110v 50Hz. Two grey wires go
straight to mains neutral. Switched mains live comes back to a small
(original looking) PCB in the motor compartment. It passes through the R in
question to to the motor red wire. There is then a cap, 0.22u 400v
polyester, between the red wire and the blue wire, so I guess that this RC
combination is a phase shift / AC dropper so that the motor is happy at
240v. There is no indication on any of the labels as to the voltage specs,
but the fact that it is a 50Hz synchronous motor single speed deck, and also
that the mains lead is absolutely original and coloured blue and brown,
would suggest that this was built for use in europe on 50Hz mains of at
least 220v ??
Arfa
Meat Plow
Did you try a 120 and see what happens (with some current limiting in
place) With things like this I usually clip in a light fuse in case the
resistor was actually 1200 ohms or more :)
Arfa Daily
"Adam Sampson" <a...@offog.org> wrote in message
news:y2ahbm6...@cartman.at.offog.org...
Thanks Adam. It is indeed a Planar 3. I had in fact already been on that
site, and seen the reference to the 150 ohm resistor. I suppose it's
possible that there might be more than one value having been fitted over the
life of production, because given 40 odd years of looking at burnt and
discoloured resistor stripes, I definitely would not have said that the
middle one was originally green, but who knows ? (well, hopefully someone on
one of these groups does ! ) I was pretty sure that the first two were
brown and red for 1- 2 - something. I was just concerned that if the final
band was red, or even orange, I didn't want to be putting 120 ohms in there
...
Arfa
Arfa Daily
"Meat Plow" <mhy...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2010.05...@gmail.com...
If no closer to a definitive answer by tomorrow, Meat, I'll probably go down
that route.
Arfa
DaveD
Just took the cover off a Rega Planar 3 and the board has 5 components
on it.
1 x .22uf 275v ac cap (220nf)
1 x 10k 5% 1-2 watt parallel (physically) to the cap (bn bk or -gold)
1 x 1M 1% 1/4 watt (br bk bk yell -bn)
1 x 3k3 1% 1/4 watt (or or bk bn -bn)
1 x 120nf 400v dc cap
HTH
DaveD
Arfa Daily
"DaveD" <mar...@ihug.co.nz> wrote in message
news:hsriq2$klj$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz...
Hmmm. Well Dave, I've got to say that that bears no relationship to what's
in this one, at all :-\
It definitely says "Rega Planar 3" at the top front right corner, although
it's hard to see as the letters are just black 'shininess' within the black
satin anodised finish of the cabinet. Underneath, directly under the motor,
is a cover secured by two screws, When this is removed, the motor and a
small PCB are revealed. The PCB has just two components on it - the burnt up
R, which is a large 'film' type, I guess something like about 5mm diameter
and 20mm or so long, and the 0.22u 400v cap, which is one of those green MKT
monobloc types. These two components are mounted 'on the slant' on the
board. The mains comes in, and the neutral is joined immediately to two grey
wires from the motor. The live leaves the board again on a white wire which
goes to the on / off switch at the front top left of the deck. Live returns
to the board on another white, and goes to the motor red lead via the burnt
up resistor. The cap is between the red lead and the remaining blue lead.
Doesn't sound much like the example that you're looking at, eh ?
Mind you, dunno about you, but I find this all the time with 'high-end'
gear. Guts that are nothing like what the the service manuals say they
should be, poorly done mods involving extra components stuck across boards,
bog-standard cheap as chips lasers fitted to CD players costing thousands,
metalwork that fits where it touches, holes drilled in wrong places,
inappropriate screw types and sizes - the list is endless.
I know that these things are often hand-built, which I guess is what
attracts the people with more money than sense to them, but when I look at
some items, I wonder how the companies that made them, and then stuck the
multi-thousand pound price tags on them, sleep at night. I guess I've just
got too much of a conscience ...
Anyways, I think tomorrow that I am going to fit a 5 watt 150 ohm wirewound
that I have to hand, and then bring it up gently on the variac, and see what
happens. I guess it's got two chances ... :-)
Arfa
Geo
wrote:
>It definitely says "Rega Planar 3" at the top front right corner, although
>it's hard to see as the letters are just black 'shininess' within the black
>satin anodised finish of the cabinet. Underneath, directly under the motor,
>is a cover secured by two screws, When this is removed, the motor and a
>small PCB are revealed. The PCB has just two components on it - the burnt up
>R, which is a large 'film' type, I guess something like about 5mm diameter
>and 20mm or so long, and the 0.22u 400v cap, which is one of those green MKT
>monobloc types. These two components are mounted 'on the slant' on the
>board. The mains comes in, and the neutral is joined immediately to two grey
>wires from the motor. The live leaves the board again on a white wire which
>goes to the on / off switch at the front top left of the deck. Live returns
>to the board on another white, and goes to the motor red lead via the burnt
>up resistor. The cap is between the red lead and the remaining blue lead.
>Doesn't sound much like the example that you're looking at, eh ?
How about this version from mine - looks like a 15k 5% (old 2-5w carbon?)
http://www.8zero.co.uk/planar.jpg
--
Geo
Arfa Daily
"Geo" <hw9j...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote in message
news:t7v2v5tt1gdnhv1k1...@4ax.com...
Yes, that's closer - although still not quite the same configuration. It's
actually a different motor in yours, but the supply still goes to the red
via the resistor, and the cap still appears to be between red and blue, and
the same value, although a different type. Based on that, I think I'm going
to start with 15k now, and see if the motor runs, and if it does, if it has
enough torque to drive the platter.
Thanks very much for taking the trouble to post me the piccy. Appreciated.
Arfa
DaveD
Further info. The data I supplied earlier was from the Planar 3 upgrade
motor assembly.
I have just pulled out the old motor and PCB.
It has only 2 components on it.
1 x 220nf 250v ac X rated cap manufactured by Rifa.
1 x 12k 2-3 watt resistor, 8.5mm dia x 25mm long.
The resistor is a mid brown body colour and the bands are quite hard to
read but measurement confirms 12k 5% (as in brown red orange gold) The
brown and orange are hard to differentiate
The motor is a Philips 110v 50hz 250 rpm (12NC 990411131613) date of
manufacture 1985 with the same colour leads
I would suggest going with what you have in the 12 - 15k ~ 5 watt
resistor. Check that the voltage to the motor is in the region of 110v
under load and it should be good to go
Cheers
DaveD
Arfa Daily
Many thanks Dave. That's it exactly. I just had a look, and I haven't got a
high power 12 or 15k in stock, but I have got some 47k 2 watt film
resistors, so to save time and get the item back to the customer (he's
already put up with me being away on holiday for 2 weeks !), I'm going to
put three of those in parallel as there's plenty of room. Thanks again, all.
Arfa
N_Cook
Is there a fuseable resistor function to the original ? ie 2 watts of
dissipation from stalled motor and the R blows rather than the motor. Would
not some 1/2 watt resistors together giving 12K be better?
Meat Plow
He has a point.
Arfa Daily
I wouldn't have said that there was an 'implicit' fusible function to the
resistor, but I suppose that you could argue it as a secondary function. The
plate on the bottom of the deck claims that the power requirement is 4
watts, so given that the primary function of the resistor is that of a
dropper for the 110v motor, you would have to say that this equates to
around 2 watts dissipation in the motor, and the other two in the resistor.
As the original resistor is rated at around 4 watts, that would sort of
indicate that it had been dimensioned to be able to stand up to its job
without burning out. I'm not actually sure what happens to the current that
a synchronous motor draws if you stall it, but I wouldn't think that it
ramps in anything like the same way as that of a DC motor, or any kind of
brushgear AC motor ??
Arfa
Meat Plow
I thought you should cover all bases as Cook did. Not really knowing
what the pwr supply capability was I thought it at least worth looking
into. Have you an idea why the original failed?
DaveD
Just another bit of info for what it is worth.
The DC resistance of the motor windings are
grey to red = 4k49
grey to blue = 4k49
red to blue = 8k99
grey to motor case greater than 20Meg
as read on my oldish dvm
The 220nf cap should be o/c also
Now I am curious as to what you find. If it is the motor, it might be
worth your customer getting the motor upgrade kit if it still available.
http://www.rega.co.uk/html/upgrade_kits.htm
Cheers
DaveD
Arfa Daily
<snip>
>
> Just another bit of info for what it is worth.
> The DC resistance of the motor windings are
> grey to red = 4k49
> grey to blue = 4k49
> red to blue = 8k99
> grey to motor case greater than 20Meg
> as read on my oldish dvm
> The 220nf cap should be o/c also
>
> Now I am curious as to what you find. If it is the motor, it might be
> worth your customer getting the motor upgrade kit if it still available.
> http://www.rega.co.uk/html/upgrade_kits.htm
> Cheers
> DaveD
Thanks for the link Dave. Do you know what the reasoning was behind the
'upgrade' ? Did they have a lot of trouble with motors failing ? I would say
that this is the original motor, coming up on 25 years old. I fitted the 3 x
47k combination, and the motor runs normally. It has plenty enough torque to
shift the heavy glass platter, and according to my strobe disc, the speed is
spot on. Voltage across the motor measured at 98v, which would seem right,
given that the 47k combo comes to 15.6k against the original value of 12k.
In the circumstances, I'm prepared to call 98v on a 110v nominal motor, a
draw.
I s'pose it wouldn't be a bad idea to just check the winding resistances
before it goes back, but I don't think I'll be expecting to find a problem,
as it does run correctly, without anything catching fire.
As to why the original resistor failed, anyone's guess. About 1 1/4 turns of
the spiral element have charred, right in the middle. The resistor looks as
though it has been pretty warm over its lifetime, but again, it is nearly 25
years old, so has worked hard. Could just be that it had started to go high
and suffered a cumulative cascade failure. Might have been a voltage thing.
Some of these resistors, particularly considering its age, are not rated
especially well, working voltage-wise. I suppose that over it's lifetime,
it's had around 130v RMS across it all the time that the motor was running.
Could have been a slight manufacturing defect such as the spiral being
'nicked', that has degraded down the years, to the point where it became a
failure. Endless possibilities ...
Arfa
Meat Plow
I hate endless possibilities. :)
Arfa Daily
Fact of life in our business, though ... :-|
Arfa
Ian Iveson
> Thanks Adam. It is indeed a Planar 3. I had in fact
> already been on that site, and seen the reference to the
> 150 ohm resistor. I suppose it's possible that there might
> be more than one value having been fitted over the life of
> production, because given 40 odd years of looking at burnt
> and discoloured resistor stripes, I definitely would not
> have said that the middle one was originally green, but
> who knows ? (well, hopefully someone on one of these
> groups does ! ) I was pretty sure that the first two were
> brown and red for 1- 2 - something. I was just concerned
> that if the final band was red, or even orange, I didn't
> want to be putting 120 ohms in there ...
What's the resistor for? Assuming the motor draws tens of mA
when running normally, the resistor would need to be a few k
if its purpose is to drop from 240 to 120V.
If it is to drop from UK mains to 220V, then 120 or 150 ohms
would be the right order of magnitude. If an increase in
value is advisable, then that should reflect a proportional
increase in the difference between 220 and UK mains, so an
increase from 120 to 150 ohms would be reasonable.
It's common for motor drivers to use fuse resistors to save
the motor from burning out if it stalls or jams. It could be
that, in your case, the choice of resistor power rating
suitable for protecting the motor is such that the resistor
runs habitually hot, and fails occasionally. I guess a
higher power rating, in combination with a higher
temperature coefficient, might protect the motor equally
well, whilst not burning out so quick under normal
conditions.
Ian
PeterD
<IanIves...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>Arfa Daily wrote:
>
>> Thanks Adam. It is indeed a Planar 3. I had in fact
>> already been on that site, and seen the reference to the
>> 150 ohm resistor. I suppose it's possible that there might
>> be more than one value having been fitted over the life of
>> production, because given 40 odd years of looking at burnt
>> and discoloured resistor stripes, I definitely would not
>> have said that the middle one was originally green, but
>> who knows ? (well, hopefully someone on one of these
>> groups does ! ) I was pretty sure that the first two were
>> brown and red for 1- 2 - something. I was just concerned
>> that if the final band was red, or even orange, I didn't
>> want to be putting 120 ohms in there ...
>
>What's the resistor for? Assuming the motor draws tens of mA
>when running normally, the resistor would need to be a few k
>if its purpose is to drop from 240 to 120V.
>
>If it is to drop from UK mains to 220V, then 120 or 150 ohms
>would be the right order of magnitude.
Well the turntable draws about 4 watts according the the OP (or
someone else in this thread). So that's 30 MA. To drop 120 volts (240
to 120)at that current and power you would have to use a resistor of
4K. But since half that power is the motor, and half is the resistor,
twice the value (8K) is more appropriate. 120 ohms would result in a
current draw at 120 volts of hundreds of watts!
William Sommerwerck
understand) to improve speed stability. Or torque. Or something. It's not to
reduce the line voltage.
Roger Thorpe
The Rega planar motor is a pair of multi pole two phase synchronous
pancake motors sandwiched together with the poles interleaved.
The resistor and capacitor are there to change the phase (lag or lead?)
of one motor so that the assemlby turns in the right direction when it
is started.
Incidentally mine is a Rega 2 and the resistor burnt out too. A day
after a short friendly 'phone conversation with the company the postman
handed me an envelope containing a new resistor (with a higher power
rating).
--
Roger Thorpe
...Wait a minute, It's stopped raining/
Guys are swimming, guys are sailing.....
Jim Lesurf
<myinitial...@warwick.ac.uk> wrote:
> William Sommerwerck wrote:
> > Many turntables have a line resistor. It "does something" (that I
> > don't understand) to improve speed stability. Or torque. Or something.
> > It's not to reduce the line voltage.
> >
> >
> It's a while since I looked, and I could be wrong but: The Rega planar
> motor is a pair of multi pole two phase synchronous pancake motors
> sandwiched together with the poles interleaved. The resistor and
> capacitor are there to change the phase (lag or lead?) of one motor so
> that the assemlby turns in the right direction when it is started.
That chimes with my understanding, based purely on having had to 'fix' a
similar problem with a friend's Rega a few years ago. Haven't commented
previously as I don't know the full details. I just replaced the burnt out
resistor with one rated at a higher power. And have since forgotten the
value.
Must admit I was less than impressed with the circuit at the time. From
this thread it does look like this resistor is prone to burning. Although
perhaps that is made worse by the risk of the motor being stalled or
loaded.
Slainte,
Jim
--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html
Ian Iveson
> William Sommerwerck wrote:
>> Many turntables have a line resistor. It "does something"
>> (that I don't
>> understand) to improve speed stability. Or torque. Or
>> something. It's not to
>> reduce the line voltage.
>>
>>
> It's a while since I looked, and I could be wrong but:
> The Rega planar motor is a pair of multi pole two phase
> synchronous pancake motors sandwiched together with the
> poles interleaved.
> The resistor and capacitor are there to change the phase
> (lag or lead?) of one motor so that the assemlby turns in
> the right direction when it is started.
> Incidentally mine is a Rega 2 and the resistor burnt out
> too. A day after a short friendly 'phone conversation with
> the company the postman handed me an envelope containing a
> new resistor (with a higher power rating).
> --
I read it that the resistor is in series with the whole
motor. How could that introduce a relative phase shift
between the two halves?
I looked at the site someone linked to, at the circuit for a
simple synchronous motor. When a resistor is used to drop
the supply voltage, the value of the recommended cap remains
the same. I didn't mention phase, therefore, not because I
know it's not significant, but that I have no evidence to
suggest that a resistor in series makes any difference.
Motors are something of a black art, AFAIK. Two motors in
parallel sharing a cap and resistor is about as black as art
can get. How can a symmetrical circuit favour one direction?
In what way is the circuit not symmetrical? Are you sure
that direction isn't determined by geometry?
Actually, this isn't a good place to explain such a thing.
If you have a name for the type of motor arrangement, maybe
I could look it up?
Ian
Ian Iveson
"Jim Lesurf" <no...@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote in message
news:5119e3c...@audiomisc.co.uk...
Now, since you have now commented, you *do* have the full
details, presumably?
> I just replaced the burnt out
> resistor with one rated at a higher power. And have since
> forgotten the
> value.
Oh...maybe not
> Must admit I was less than impressed with the circuit at
> the time. From
> this thread it does look like this resistor is prone to
> burning. Although
> perhaps that is made worse by the risk of the motor being
> stalled or
> loaded.
Perhaps? Certainly, surely?
Is it really likely, do you think, that the manufacturer
would continue to fit an inappropriate resistor for so long?
It's not like resistor power rating is complicated or
arcane. Cost difference can't be that significant, and
there's no shortage of space.
It would be interesting to know how the winding resistance
compares with the impedance of an up-to-speed motor. If the
difference is great enough, it could be that all those
burned-out resistors are a result of stalled motors or
increased drag, or even the fitting of heavy platters. It's
also possible that every burned-out resistor has saved a
motor winding, in which case a higher-rated resistor would
be a liability.
Ian
Ian Iveson
"PeterD" <pet...@hipson.net> wrote in message
news:61l7v5l6jvohh6pqk...@4ax.com...
I've read this a few times but....perhaps you misunderstood.
I was entertaining the theory that the 120 ohm resistor
drops the difference between 220V (or whatever the motor
hopes for) and UK mains, i.e. 10 or 15V, whatever it was
when the deck was made. If that difference has increased by,
say 25% from 12V to 15V, then the change that has been
mentioned, from 120 to 150 ohms, makes sense, roughly.
Everything that Arthur has said seems to fit this theory.
It's simple, too.
Anyway, as I understand it, Arthur's worried because if it's
supposed to be a much higher value, he might do some damage.
That's why I homed in on the voltage dropping issue.
Whatever else it might do, a resistor in series will
certainly drop voltage. If the value is much too low, then
it could result in a burnout. This is true whatever its
effect on direction, speed, torque and lots of other stuff I
don't know about but probably everyone else does but didn't
fancy saying so until now.
I wonder if he's tried it yet?
Ian
Arfa Daily
"Ian Iveson" <IanIves...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:RbZIn.6126$ea4....@newsfe29.ams2...
Ian. See my later post regarding the correct value, and how it all performed
when fitted. I think that I'm down the same road as Jim was when he did his
mate's one, and judging by what someone else said about Rega sending them a
shiny new resistor of increased power rating, that would seem to be the
right road, if their answer is also upping the rating from what they
originally designed in. Also, its primary function does seem to be that of a
simple dropper to get the 240v mains supply down to something closer to the
110v rating of the motor. My replacement R resulted in 240v in, 98v out
across the motor. I would say that the 0.22uF cap is there to introduce
phase shift between the two stacked windings, to ensure startup, and as
someone else suggested, correct rotational direction. I'm not sure that
stalling is a big current-draw issue for a synchronous motor like it would
be for AC or DC brushgear types. Anyone actually know ?
Arfa
Jim Lesurf
<IanIves...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> "Jim Lesurf" <no...@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:5119e3c...@audiomisc.co.uk...
> > Must admit I was less than impressed with the circuit at the time.
> > From this thread it does look like this resistor is prone to burning.
> > Although perhaps that is made worse by the risk of the motor being
> > stalled or loaded.
> Perhaps? Certainly, surely?
No, I can't say for *sure* since I don't now know the rest of the circuit
details or the motor characteristics, fusing, etc. Lacking details I can
only say "perhaps" in the above.
> Is it really likely, do you think, that the manufacturer would continue
> to fit an inappropriate resistor for so long? It's not like resistor
> power rating is complicated or arcane. Cost difference can't be that
> significant, and there's no shortage of space.
Afraid I have no data to base a general value of what is "likely". I can
only note that:
1) I found that the resistor was burned out and seemed to me to be rather
small (hence probably low power rating) and replaced it with a higher rated
one.
2) That others here are commenting in a way that supports this idea.
> It would be interesting to know how the winding resistance compares
> with the impedance of an up-to-speed motor. If the difference is great
> enough, it could be that all those burned-out resistors are a result of
> stalled motors or increased drag, or even the fitting of heavy
> platters. It's also possible that every burned-out resistor has saved a
> motor winding, in which case a higher-rated resistor would be a
> liability.
That is possible. All kinds of speculations might sometimes return "true".
:-) However in the case of the resistor I replaced the turntable seems to
have worked fine since. The owner seems quite happy with it some years
later.
However, joining you in speculation, the problem with fitting components
with (relatively) low power ratings is that the component tends to run hot
and this can shorten life or lead to other problems. Given the cost of the
turntable it might be better to use a better design for the PSU. Or even
use a fuse that is user-replacable without a soldering iron. Or ensure that
the system is rated to remain undamaged even with a prolonged stall.
I agree that low power resistors are cheap, though. :-)
PeterD
<IanIves...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>I've read this a few times but....perhaps you misunderstood.
>I was entertaining the theory that the 120 ohm resistor
>drops the difference between 220V (or whatever the motor
>hopes for) and UK mains, i.e. 10 or 15V, whatever it was
>when the deck was made.
IIRC the setup was that the motor was a 120 volt motor used on a 240
volt mains. Not a 220 volt motor on a 240 volt mains. If the desired
drop is only 12 to 15V then you are correct for the value. But that is
not what I understood.
>If that difference has increased by,
>say 25% from 12V to 15V, then the change that has been
>mentioned, from 120 to 150 ohms, makes sense, roughly.
>Everything that Arthur has said seems to fit this theory.
>It's simple, too.
>
>Anyway, as I understand it, Arthur's worried because if it's
>supposed to be a much higher value, he might do some damage.
I'd agree, given the conditions in my comment above, that a 120 ohm
resistor might in fact do damage.
>That's why I homed in on the voltage dropping issue.
>Whatever else it might do, a resistor in series will
>certainly drop voltage. If the value is much too low, then
>it could result in a burnout. This is true whatever its
>effect on direction, speed, torque and lots of other stuff I
>don't know about but probably everyone else does but didn't
>fancy saying so until now.
>
>I wonder if he's tried it yet?
>
>Ian
>
I thought he had, but I'd have to go see if there is a reply.
Something about using three or four larger resistors in parallel...