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What type of capacitor should I use?
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olds...@tubes.com
Mar 9, 2017, 8:03:02 PM3/9/17
to
What type of capacitor would be the best match to replace the old
paper/wax caps in old tube gear?
I am not referring to the electrolytics, those I know need to be
electrolytic caps. I am referring to the inter stage caps, such as .01
.05 .1, .005 and so on.....
The object is to replace all the caps in an old tube radio, or any other
tube stuff.
Yes, I know this topic was sort of discussed a few weeks ago, and I
recall hearing that any of them would work, but that does not really
answer this question. Sure, they may all work, but what type would be
the closest match to the original paper/wax types?
From what I know, those caps were made from paper and a metal foil
rolled up and coated with wax. So, what is the nearest similar type?
From that last discussion, I know I left that thread sort of puzzled
because all caps seem tp contain "poly" (which means plastic). I am
thinking that what seems to be the closest would be whatever plastic
replaces the paper, and a foil. From what I understand, some caps do not
have a foil, but rather some sort of metallic material that is coated or
sprayed on. Those are probably not what I would want to use, because
they are not similar to the originals.
I am fully aware that the voltage MUST be the same or higher and the uf
must be close, such as .047 to replace .05. Also for tube circuits,
axial leads are preferred.
Then too, looking on ebay and other sources, I see a lot of very
expensive caps which are intended for high end audio amps. For my needs,
I will not pay $29.99 for one cap, and yes I have seen them cost that
much.
I am seeing some no-name cheap China caps selling for as little as 20
cents each. While I like to save money, I'd really rather spend $1 each
for something like the Orange Drops, which have been around a long time
and seem to be good quality, despite the fact they dont come in axial
form. But they generally can fit into most places.
I will only be replacing those paper/wax caps and the electrolytics. I
wont touch any mica or silver mica types, unless they appear to be bad
(I will probably test them though).
One that I do recall, are the so called Mylar, which I think were the
first ones that were made to replace the old paper caps. I guess they
now changed that name to something "poly" also.....
What would you recommend or use?
Web url's appreciated for lower cost AMERICAN made caps.
One last thing, I found some cap assortments on ebay. 150 or 200 caps of
assorted values, labeled as NOS (New old stock), but they are NOT the
paper/wax kind. Since I have no spare caps, and just want an assortment
on hand, I was thinking about buying one of those. I would NOT buy NOS
electrolytics, but for the interstage types, I might consider this, just
so I have an assortment of caps on hand..
paper/wax caps in old tube gear?
I am not referring to the electrolytics, those I know need to be
electrolytic caps. I am referring to the inter stage caps, such as .01
.05 .1, .005 and so on.....
The object is to replace all the caps in an old tube radio, or any other
tube stuff.
Yes, I know this topic was sort of discussed a few weeks ago, and I
recall hearing that any of them would work, but that does not really
answer this question. Sure, they may all work, but what type would be
the closest match to the original paper/wax types?
From what I know, those caps were made from paper and a metal foil
rolled up and coated with wax. So, what is the nearest similar type?
From that last discussion, I know I left that thread sort of puzzled
because all caps seem tp contain "poly" (which means plastic). I am
thinking that what seems to be the closest would be whatever plastic
replaces the paper, and a foil. From what I understand, some caps do not
have a foil, but rather some sort of metallic material that is coated or
sprayed on. Those are probably not what I would want to use, because
they are not similar to the originals.
I am fully aware that the voltage MUST be the same or higher and the uf
must be close, such as .047 to replace .05. Also for tube circuits,
axial leads are preferred.
Then too, looking on ebay and other sources, I see a lot of very
expensive caps which are intended for high end audio amps. For my needs,
I will not pay $29.99 for one cap, and yes I have seen them cost that
much.
I am seeing some no-name cheap China caps selling for as little as 20
cents each. While I like to save money, I'd really rather spend $1 each
for something like the Orange Drops, which have been around a long time
and seem to be good quality, despite the fact they dont come in axial
form. But they generally can fit into most places.
I will only be replacing those paper/wax caps and the electrolytics. I
wont touch any mica or silver mica types, unless they appear to be bad
(I will probably test them though).
One that I do recall, are the so called Mylar, which I think were the
first ones that were made to replace the old paper caps. I guess they
now changed that name to something "poly" also.....
What would you recommend or use?
Web url's appreciated for lower cost AMERICAN made caps.
One last thing, I found some cap assortments on ebay. 150 or 200 caps of
assorted values, labeled as NOS (New old stock), but they are NOT the
paper/wax kind. Since I have no spare caps, and just want an assortment
on hand, I was thinking about buying one of those. I would NOT buy NOS
electrolytics, but for the interstage types, I might consider this, just
so I have an assortment of caps on hand..
Trevor Wilson
Mar 9, 2017, 8:07:23 PM3/9/17
to
to source PIO (Paper In Oil) types, then you'll need the national debt
of a small South American nation to pay for one. AND you'll gain
nothing. Just a plain ole plastic cap. It'll work and keep working and
there will be zero impact on sound quality.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
tom
Mar 9, 2017, 9:13:40 PM3/9/17
to
<olds...@tubes.com> wrote in message
news:43t3cc9j919psgj3l...@4ax.com...
> What type of capacitor would be the best match to replace the old
> paper/wax caps in old tube gear?
>
>
> paper/wax caps in old tube gear?
>
>
> One that I do recall, are the so called Mylar, which I think were the
> first ones that were made to replace the old paper caps. I guess they
> now changed that name to something "poly" also.....
>
Mylar is DuPont's brand name for a stretched PET plastic. P is for poly :)
> first ones that were made to replace the old paper caps. I guess they
> now changed that name to something "poly" also.....
>
Foxs Mercantile
Mar 9, 2017, 9:17:27 PM3/9/17
to
On 3/9/2017 7:01 PM, olds...@tubes.com wrote:
> What type of capacitor would be the best match to replace
> the old paper/wax caps in old tube gear?
Were you NOT paying attention previously when we ALL told
> What type of capacitor would be the best match to replace
> the old paper/wax caps in old tube gear?
you to use the yellow plastic caps? 630 volt.
<http://www.tuberadios.com/capacitors/>
Or are you just being stubborn?
Paper dielectric capacitors are crap. They ALL need to be
replaced. Trying to "just replace the bad ones" is a fool's
errand. They're all bad or will fail after they're "back
in service" again.
I have a Collins R-390A receiver on the bench. It's full of
paper capacitors. The IF module alone had 18 of them. They
have all been replaced.
"But it's Collins" and "Those were mil-spec" and and and
every other excuse for not changing them. Changing them made
a profound difference in how well the radio works.
These parts are bad. Anyone that tells you otherwise is
either lying to you or is delusional.
--
Jeff-1.0
wa6fwi
http://www.foxsmercantile.com
olds...@tubes.com
Mar 10, 2017, 5:05:33 AM3/10/17
to
On Thu, 9 Mar 2017 20:17:16 -0600, Foxs Mercantile <jda...@att.net>
wrote:
>On 3/9/2017 7:01 PM, olds...@tubes.com wrote:
>> What type of capacitor would be the best match to replace
>> the old paper/wax caps in old tube gear?
>
>Were you NOT paying attention previously when we ALL told
>you to use the yellow plastic caps? 630 volt.
>
I WAS paying attention and I even contacted that seller and found out
they are made in China.
No, not being stubborn , I just dont want caps made in China. Not much
of anything made in China is a quality item. That seller has good prices
and a fair selection, but I still dont want China caps, which will
likely contain duds, and I'll end up replacing all of them in 5 years or
less, again.
And that site dont give enough info to translate to other sites. They
are just called "Axial Film Capacitors" on that site. When I look at
other sites, I see them sold with some sort of "poly" name, and I see
the word "film" used, as well as "foil". So, what do these compare to in
the words used to sell other brands?
That word "film" bothers me, anyhow. Just what the heck is this film? Is
it just some sprayed on metalic particles? The old paper caps contained
foil, which to me means something that looks like tin foil used in the
kitchen. Maybe I'm wrong, but if my radio or (whatever) was designed for
caps made with foil, I'd prefer to use caps with foil, and whatever
plastics they used to replace the paper. In other words, I want caps
that most closely mimic the original caps, except without the paper.
>
>Paper dielectric capacitors are crap. They ALL need to be
>replaced. Trying to "just replace the bad ones" is a fool's
>errand. They're all bad or will fail after they're "back
>in service" again.
Those paper caps may be crap now, but considering many of them lasted 50
years, they were not all crap, to last that long. I doubt any China made
caps will last even close to 50 years. I may be wrong, but based on
nearly all China products, I doubt any of them will last 5 years.
Everything made in China is just throw away short lived junk. Made to
fail one day after their warranty expires.
But rather that toss out my opinion, which is based on my overall
feelings about China products, you tell me how these caps have worked
for you. (assuming they are what you have used).
What precentage of them have been duds? If you have tested them, how
accurate are they? Have you had any fail? How long have you used them?
Will they really handle the max voltage they are rated as? How do they
perform under heat and other extremes? DId your Collins work as
designed, or did you have to re-align it or do any modifications because
the caps are not the "foil" type, and thus are not what the circuit was
made to use?
Sellers (of anything), always rate their goods at "Top Quality", but
advertising is mostly all lies. I want references from you, and anyone
else who is NOT connected to the seller.
>These parts are bad. Anyone that tells you otherwise is
>either lying to you or is delusional.
Although this is drifting from the topic, I just bought an old Sencor
Substitution box. It's for Resistance, Capacitors, (including lytics),
one silicone and one selenium diode, and a few other features. I took a
modern VOM with capacitor tester, and found all the paper/wax caps in
that box are still very accurate. However some of the lytics are not
even close. The resistors are all close too. Considering these parts
have seen little voltage and use, I see no reason to change any of the
small caps or the resistors. I do plan to change the electrolytics
though, because I know they deteriorate just from age, whether they are
used or not, because of the chemicals in them. (and my tests confirm
they are not even close to their rated UF values, some as much as 50%
off.
But I see no reason to change those small caps (.05 .001, etc). Not for
the brief times thay are used. and they are all very accurate in their
values.
wrote:
>On 3/9/2017 7:01 PM, olds...@tubes.com wrote:
>> What type of capacitor would be the best match to replace
>> the old paper/wax caps in old tube gear?
>
>Were you NOT paying attention previously when we ALL told
>you to use the yellow plastic caps? 630 volt.
>
they are made in China.
No, not being stubborn , I just dont want caps made in China. Not much
of anything made in China is a quality item. That seller has good prices
and a fair selection, but I still dont want China caps, which will
likely contain duds, and I'll end up replacing all of them in 5 years or
less, again.
And that site dont give enough info to translate to other sites. They
are just called "Axial Film Capacitors" on that site. When I look at
other sites, I see them sold with some sort of "poly" name, and I see
the word "film" used, as well as "foil". So, what do these compare to in
the words used to sell other brands?
That word "film" bothers me, anyhow. Just what the heck is this film? Is
it just some sprayed on metalic particles? The old paper caps contained
foil, which to me means something that looks like tin foil used in the
kitchen. Maybe I'm wrong, but if my radio or (whatever) was designed for
caps made with foil, I'd prefer to use caps with foil, and whatever
plastics they used to replace the paper. In other words, I want caps
that most closely mimic the original caps, except without the paper.
>
>Paper dielectric capacitors are crap. They ALL need to be
>replaced. Trying to "just replace the bad ones" is a fool's
>errand. They're all bad or will fail after they're "back
>in service" again.
years, they were not all crap, to last that long. I doubt any China made
caps will last even close to 50 years. I may be wrong, but based on
nearly all China products, I doubt any of them will last 5 years.
Everything made in China is just throw away short lived junk. Made to
fail one day after their warranty expires.
>
>I have a Collins R-390A receiver on the bench. It's full of
>paper capacitors. The IF module alone had 18 of them. They
>have all been replaced.
>"But it's Collins" and "Those were mil-spec" and and and
>every other excuse for not changing them. Changing them made
>a profound difference in how well the radio works.
>
I'm sure it did make a difference to the better, but for how long?
>I have a Collins R-390A receiver on the bench. It's full of
>paper capacitors. The IF module alone had 18 of them. They
>have all been replaced.
>"But it's Collins" and "Those were mil-spec" and and and
>every other excuse for not changing them. Changing them made
>a profound difference in how well the radio works.
>
But rather that toss out my opinion, which is based on my overall
feelings about China products, you tell me how these caps have worked
for you. (assuming they are what you have used).
What precentage of them have been duds? If you have tested them, how
accurate are they? Have you had any fail? How long have you used them?
Will they really handle the max voltage they are rated as? How do they
perform under heat and other extremes? DId your Collins work as
designed, or did you have to re-align it or do any modifications because
the caps are not the "foil" type, and thus are not what the circuit was
made to use?
Sellers (of anything), always rate their goods at "Top Quality", but
advertising is mostly all lies. I want references from you, and anyone
else who is NOT connected to the seller.
>These parts are bad. Anyone that tells you otherwise is
>either lying to you or is delusional.
Substitution box. It's for Resistance, Capacitors, (including lytics),
one silicone and one selenium diode, and a few other features. I took a
modern VOM with capacitor tester, and found all the paper/wax caps in
that box are still very accurate. However some of the lytics are not
even close. The resistors are all close too. Considering these parts
have seen little voltage and use, I see no reason to change any of the
small caps or the resistors. I do plan to change the electrolytics
though, because I know they deteriorate just from age, whether they are
used or not, because of the chemicals in them. (and my tests confirm
they are not even close to their rated UF values, some as much as 50%
off.
But I see no reason to change those small caps (.05 .001, etc). Not for
the brief times thay are used. and they are all very accurate in their
values.
ohg...@gmail.com
Mar 10, 2017, 8:01:56 AM3/10/17
to
On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 5:05:33 AM UTC-5, olds...@tubes.com wrote:
>
> But I see no reason to change those small caps (.05 .001, etc). Not for
> the brief times thay are used. and they are all very accurate in their
> values.
I have tons of new old stock caps that I keep for nostalgia reasons (dad's), but if I place them on my LC75 and run working voltages into them, most of them will draw excessive current and never "reform". Most are also wildly (by today's standards) off value. I don't know if they drifted over time or if they're typically that far off when new.
>
> But I see no reason to change those small caps (.05 .001, etc). Not for
> the brief times thay are used. and they are all very accurate in their
> values.
Of all the mistakes you made in your rant, the biggest is confusing Walmart Chinese products with individual components. Unless you have a natural racist bent, be aware that having Chinese DNA does not preclude one from making quality or innovative assemblies or components as needed.
When rebuilding a 50 year old radio, we find many original caps inside. Very few can pass a voltage test, and really, when is the last time these radios were used daily? 30 or more years ago? Most of the old radios you will find to restore haven't been used in decades. Those paper caps were shot long ago even if the circuit still struggles to life with them.
pf...@aol.com
Mar 10, 2017, 8:20:29 AM3/10/17
to
A few things:
Today, capacitors are commodities. Meaning that the technology involved in making them is fully established, well understood, extremely reliable and (now) very simple. Meaning, again, that the lowest-cost producer making a generic product will pretty much win the market. Meaning (a third time), that the cost of 'faking' such a device will likely approach or exceed the cost of making the proper product in the first place.
So, those capacitors that require very little technology - small-value film caps, for instance - will be cheap and plentiful. And, apart from very specific requirements - aerospace, medical, ultra-precision and similar - there is no reason to choose one item over another from one source over another as, at that level, they are all pretty much from the same place.
Electrolytics do have a greater variation, include different technologies, different chemistry, materials and such, have many different applications, and sub-categories within those applications. With that in mind, one may choose from different sources.
Specialty caps are a different matter altogether, and unless one is in the Aerospace, medical, ultra-precision or similar industries, not really relevant to vintage equipment. Russian PIO caps presently in vogue with the audio hobby are a case in point. Utterly silly indulgences but plenty of yiches.
Meaning that unless you wish to pay aerospace prices, purchase the item that meets the needs at the best price from a *RELIABLE* supplier. *RELIABLE* supplier will protect you from counterfeits - usually at a very small premium, but well worth it. And if that part happens to be from China, comfort yourself that it is due to the commoditization of the product - and your preferred suppliers simply cannot make a profit in that line. The bottom line is that your vintage item is singing again, far more reliable than it ever was in the past, and, very likely far into the future.
One example: I pay about $1.75 extra per transistor from Mouser than for the same part-number from another supplier. Why? Mouser is a major contributor and founder of anti-counterfeit parts organizations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouser_Electronics
If Mouser sells me a part, I feel pretty sure it will be as represented, whatever the country of origin. Yes, I tend to hold my nose and grumble, if that is China. But increasingly often, the alternative is nothing at all, or old-stock material no better than what is being replaced.
Does your meter test those caps and resistors at any sort of operating voltage? Before you describe them as 'very accurate', they must be tested at operating voltages.
Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
Today, capacitors are commodities. Meaning that the technology involved in making them is fully established, well understood, extremely reliable and (now) very simple. Meaning, again, that the lowest-cost producer making a generic product will pretty much win the market. Meaning (a third time), that the cost of 'faking' such a device will likely approach or exceed the cost of making the proper product in the first place.
So, those capacitors that require very little technology - small-value film caps, for instance - will be cheap and plentiful. And, apart from very specific requirements - aerospace, medical, ultra-precision and similar - there is no reason to choose one item over another from one source over another as, at that level, they are all pretty much from the same place.
Electrolytics do have a greater variation, include different technologies, different chemistry, materials and such, have many different applications, and sub-categories within those applications. With that in mind, one may choose from different sources.
Specialty caps are a different matter altogether, and unless one is in the Aerospace, medical, ultra-precision or similar industries, not really relevant to vintage equipment. Russian PIO caps presently in vogue with the audio hobby are a case in point. Utterly silly indulgences but plenty of yiches.
Meaning that unless you wish to pay aerospace prices, purchase the item that meets the needs at the best price from a *RELIABLE* supplier. *RELIABLE* supplier will protect you from counterfeits - usually at a very small premium, but well worth it. And if that part happens to be from China, comfort yourself that it is due to the commoditization of the product - and your preferred suppliers simply cannot make a profit in that line. The bottom line is that your vintage item is singing again, far more reliable than it ever was in the past, and, very likely far into the future.
One example: I pay about $1.75 extra per transistor from Mouser than for the same part-number from another supplier. Why? Mouser is a major contributor and founder of anti-counterfeit parts organizations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouser_Electronics
If Mouser sells me a part, I feel pretty sure it will be as represented, whatever the country of origin. Yes, I tend to hold my nose and grumble, if that is China. But increasingly often, the alternative is nothing at all, or old-stock material no better than what is being replaced.
Does your meter test those caps and resistors at any sort of operating voltage? Before you describe them as 'very accurate', they must be tested at operating voltages.
Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
Foxs Mercantile
Mar 10, 2017, 8:35:03 AM3/10/17
to
On 3/10/2017 4:04 AM, olds...@tubes.com wrote:
> Maybe I'm wrong, but if my radio or (whatever) was designed
> for caps made with foil, I'd prefer to use caps with foil, and
> whatever plastics they used to replace the paper. In other
> words, I want caps that most closely mimic the original caps,
> except without the paper.
Which shows a complete and total misunderstanding of what
capacitors are.
> Those paper caps may be crap now, but considering many of them
> lasted 50 years, they were not all crap, to last that long.
Many? Of the billions that were produced between 1935 and 1965
Almost all of them have failed. The few that "might still be
good" are statistically zero.
> I doubt any China made caps will last even close to 50 years.
> I may be wrong, but based on nearly all China products, I
> doubt any of them will last 5 years.
> Everything made in China is just throw away short lived junk.
> Made to fail one day after their warranty expires.
More willful ignorance on display.
> But rather that toss out my opinion, which is based on my
> overall feelings about China products, you tell me how these
> caps have worked for you. (assuming they are what you have
> used).
There's that magic word "feelings" again. Based on nothing.
> What percentage of them have been duds? If you have tested
radios and test equipment after retiring. 23 years now. I have
never had a failure of any of the yellow plastic capacitors.
> Will they really handle the max voltage they are rated as?
> How do they perform under heat and other extremes?
Yes and flawlessly.
> Did yourCollins work as designed, or did you have to re-align
no alignment, other than "touch up" was required. This was done
to make the radio "work as specified" not just "it works."
You still completely misunderstand how capacitors work.
> I just bought an old Sencor Substitution box.
or the probability of failure with applied voltage.
> But I see no reason to change those small caps (.05 .001, etc).
> Not for the brief times they are used. and they are all very
> accurate in their values.
More willful ignorance to justify your position.
This is like assuming your tires are safe, even though you have
to put air in them every time you wish to drive your vehicle.
If you'll pardon the pun, to recap, I've been doing this for 23
years as a source of income. I haven't had ANY radios come back
due to failures of the "cheap Chinese crap" capacitors as you
insist on calling them.
> On Thu, 9 Mar 2017 20:17:16 -0600, Foxs Mercantile wrote:
>> Or are you just being stubborn?
>
> No, not being stubborn , I just dont want caps made in China.
> Not much of anything made in China is a quality item.
> That seller has good prices and a fair selection, but I still
> don't want China caps, which will likely contain duds, and
>> Or are you just being stubborn?
>
> No, not being stubborn , I just dont want caps made in China.
> Not much of anything made in China is a quality item.
> That seller has good prices and a fair selection, but I still
> I'll end up replacing all of them in 5 years or less, again.
Ok, how about willfully ignorant or xenophobic.
> Maybe I'm wrong, but if my radio or (whatever) was designed
> for caps made with foil, I'd prefer to use caps with foil, and
> whatever plastics they used to replace the paper. In other
> words, I want caps that most closely mimic the original caps,
> except without the paper.
capacitors are.
> Those paper caps may be crap now, but considering many of them
> lasted 50 years, they were not all crap, to last that long.
Almost all of them have failed. The few that "might still be
good" are statistically zero.
> I doubt any China made caps will last even close to 50 years.
> I may be wrong, but based on nearly all China products, I
> doubt any of them will last 5 years.
> Everything made in China is just throw away short lived junk.
> Made to fail one day after their warranty expires.
> But rather that toss out my opinion, which is based on my
> overall feelings about China products, you tell me how these
> caps have worked for you. (assuming they are what you have
> used).
> What percentage of them have been duds? If you have tested
> them, how accurate are they? Have you had any fail? How long
> have you used them?
I have been using them since 1994 when I got back into vintage
> have you used them?
radios and test equipment after retiring. 23 years now. I have
never had a failure of any of the yellow plastic capacitors.
> Will they really handle the max voltage they are rated as?
> How do they perform under heat and other extremes?
> Did yourCollins work as designed, or did you have to re-align
> it or do any modifications because the caps are not the "foil"
> type, and thus are not what the circuit was made to use?
Other than some expected drift due to aging components little or
> type, and thus are not what the circuit was made to use?
no alignment, other than "touch up" was required. This was done
to make the radio "work as specified" not just "it works."
You still completely misunderstand how capacitors work.
> I just bought an old Sencor Substitution box.
> I took a modern VOM with capacitor tester, and found all the
> paper/wax caps in that box are still very accurate.
That is NOT a comprehensive test. It says nothing about leakage
> paper/wax caps in that box are still very accurate.
or the probability of failure with applied voltage.
> But I see no reason to change those small caps (.05 .001, etc).
> accurate in their values.
More willful ignorance to justify your position.
This is like assuming your tires are safe, even though you have
to put air in them every time you wish to drive your vehicle.
If you'll pardon the pun, to recap, I've been doing this for 23
years as a source of income. I haven't had ANY radios come back
due to failures of the "cheap Chinese crap" capacitors as you
insist on calling them.
Ralph Mowery
Mar 10, 2017, 10:18:35 AM3/10/17
to
In article <a7dd2134-3369-fee3...@att.net>,
jda...@att.net says...
if not used very much. Friend jsut went through that with a tire
company. He had a tire that is starting to seperate. He talked with
the tire maker. While the tire had plenty of thread and mileage let on
it, it was over 7 years old. The company told him that after abut 5 to
6 years many tires will just go bad. In a way I wish that I had been
aware of that a year or two ago. I am retired and do not drive that
much and have a car and truck. I put some tires on them that was rated
very high in the milage thinking I would not have to worry about tires
for a long time, but seems that they may age out with over half the
thread left on them.
Speaking of China. They make some items that seem to be as good as
any,and they make a lot of junk. I have several pieces of equipmant
from China that seems to be as good as any. Friend ordered some
transistors and all of them were bad junk that did not even test on a
transistor tester.
As many power tubes are not made in the US anymore a company contractes
with a China company to make some. They seem to hold up very well.
jda...@att.net says...
>
>
>
> This is like assuming your tires are safe, even though you have
> to put air in them every time you wish to drive your vehicle.
>
>
Speaking of unsafe tires, they do seem to have a limiated lifetime even
>
>
> This is like assuming your tires are safe, even though you have
> to put air in them every time you wish to drive your vehicle.
>
>
if not used very much. Friend jsut went through that with a tire
company. He had a tire that is starting to seperate. He talked with
the tire maker. While the tire had plenty of thread and mileage let on
it, it was over 7 years old. The company told him that after abut 5 to
6 years many tires will just go bad. In a way I wish that I had been
aware of that a year or two ago. I am retired and do not drive that
much and have a car and truck. I put some tires on them that was rated
very high in the milage thinking I would not have to worry about tires
for a long time, but seems that they may age out with over half the
thread left on them.
Speaking of China. They make some items that seem to be as good as
any,and they make a lot of junk. I have several pieces of equipmant
from China that seems to be as good as any. Friend ordered some
transistors and all of them were bad junk that did not even test on a
transistor tester.
As many power tubes are not made in the US anymore a company contractes
with a China company to make some. They seem to hold up very well.
Dan
Mar 10, 2017, 11:31:08 AM3/10/17
to
pf...@aol.com
Mar 10, 2017, 11:59:11 AM3/10/17
to
On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 11:31:08 AM UTC-5, Dan wrote:
> Give this site a try.
>
> https://www.tedss.com/LearnMore/American-Made-Capacitors
>
>
Until you go into their product list and find all of the 'usual suspects' from the 'usual sources'.
> Give this site a try.
>
> https://www.tedss.com/LearnMore/American-Made-Capacitors
>
>
https://www.tedss.com/Catalog/Browse?searchString=NIC&inCategory=ALUMINUM%20ELECTROLYTIC%20%3E%20AXIAL%20%3E%20HIGH%20TEMP
The (very, very) few US-origin film caps offered are either extremely expensive, low-voltage, of unusual values (5.5 uF film? Really?) or all three.
Seriously, there is no 'there' there.
analogdial
Mar 10, 2017, 1:07:23 PM3/10/17
to
Right on the first page:
"Think all capacitors made in the Far East are cheap, noisy, low
quality."
'If you are looking for quality components, then TEDSS.com is for YOU.'
"Americans put a man on the moon in 1969 with American-made capacitors.
The greatest military power in the world was made by using High Quality
American Made apacitors."
Wow. I suppose the grammar and spelling are about what you'd expect
from a Usenet loon, but subpar for a vendor trying to sell quality.
And, for what it's worth, I DON'T think ALL capacitors made in the Far
East are cheap, noisy, low quality. And as soon as I hear that the
Chinese have mastered the art of making "High Quality apacitors.", I'll
be doubling up on my Mandarin lessons.
"Think all capacitors made in the Far East are cheap, noisy, low
quality."
'If you are looking for quality components, then TEDSS.com is for YOU.'
"Americans put a man on the moon in 1969 with American-made capacitors.
The greatest military power in the world was made by using High Quality
American Made apacitors."
Wow. I suppose the grammar and spelling are about what you'd expect
from a Usenet loon, but subpar for a vendor trying to sell quality.
And, for what it's worth, I DON'T think ALL capacitors made in the Far
East are cheap, noisy, low quality. And as soon as I hear that the
Chinese have mastered the art of making "High Quality apacitors.", I'll
be doubling up on my Mandarin lessons.
Tom Biasi
Mar 10, 2017, 2:49:40 PM3/10/17
to
On 3/9/2017 9:17 PM, Foxs Mercantile wrote:
>
>
> Were you NOT paying attention previously when we ALL told
> you to use the yellow plastic caps? 630 volt.
>
Thanks for the reminder Jeff. I need some caps from Sal.:-)
>
>
> Were you NOT paying attention previously when we ALL told
> you to use the yellow plastic caps? 630 volt.
>
Jim Mueller
Mar 11, 2017, 1:02:32 AM3/11/17
to
manufacturers, some that I've heard of, some not. It appears that they
are a surplus house.
--
Jim Mueller wron...@nospam.com
To get my real email address, replace wrongname with dadoheadman.
Then replace nospam with fastmail. Lastly, replace com with us.
whit3rd
Mar 11, 2017, 2:55:06 AM3/11/17
to
On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 2:05:33 AM UTC-8, olds...@tubes.com wrote:
> No, not being stubborn , I just dont want caps made in China. Not much
> of anything made in China is a quality item.
If "the quality" is capacitance, or leakage current, or standoff voltage,
> No, not being stubborn , I just dont want caps made in China. Not much
> of anything made in China is a quality item.
or self-resonant frequency, or series resistance, the radio cares.
It doesn't care about 'made in China'.
Big Bad Bob
Aug 9, 2017, 7:54:35 AM8/9/17
to
On 03/09/17 17:01, olds...@tubes.com wrote:
> What type of capacitor would be the best match to replace the old
> paper/wax caps in old tube gear?
>
> I am not referring to the electrolytics, those I know need to be
> electrolytic caps. I am referring to the inter stage caps, such as .01
> .05 .1, .005 and so on.....
>
> The object is to replace all the caps in an old tube radio, or any other
> tube stuff.
well, if you must replace them with more modern components, a decent
> What type of capacitor would be the best match to replace the old
> paper/wax caps in old tube gear?
>
> I am not referring to the electrolytics, those I know need to be
> electrolytic caps. I am referring to the inter stage caps, such as .01
> .05 .1, .005 and so on.....
>
> The object is to replace all the caps in an old tube radio, or any other
> tube stuff.
ceramic capacitor should do fine. From what I have seen, ceramics were
common in gear made in the 50's and 60's because of their small relative
size and reasonable consistency in manufacturing.
You should be able to order them from companies like Digikey, Mouser,
etc.. Just make sure the voltage ratings are high enough, and you
should be ok.
I've seen on-line "photo piles" of before/after restoration efforts in
which modern components were "hidden" inside of hollowed-out components.
Maybe you can stash a modern ceramic inside of the paper/wax tube, and
seal it up with a bit of hot glue...
tabb...@gmail.com
Aug 9, 2017, 11:41:12 AM8/9/17
to
NT
Michael A. Terrell
Aug 9, 2017, 2:50:17 PM8/9/17
to
capacitance, at different voltages. Some are microphonic, and their
normal failure mode is a dead short. About the only place they should be
used are for DC bybass, or in low power tuned circuits.
--
Never piss off an Engineer!
They don't get mad.
They don't get even.
They go for over unity! ;-)
Dave Platt
Aug 9, 2017, 3:07:16 PM8/9/17
to
> That word "film" bothers me, anyhow. Just what the heck is this film? Is
> it just some sprayed on metalic particles? The old paper caps contained
> foil, which to me means something that looks like tin foil used in the
> kitchen. Maybe I'm wrong, but if my radio or (whatever) was designed for
> caps made with foil, I'd prefer to use caps with foil, and whatever
> plastics they used to replace the paper. In other words, I want caps
> that most closely mimic the original caps, except without the paper.
Then, what you are looking for would be what's sold as "film and foil"
> it just some sprayed on metalic particles? The old paper caps contained
> foil, which to me means something that looks like tin foil used in the
> kitchen. Maybe I'm wrong, but if my radio or (whatever) was designed for
> caps made with foil, I'd prefer to use caps with foil, and whatever
> plastics they used to replace the paper. In other words, I want caps
> that most closely mimic the original caps, except without the paper.
capacitors.
Digi-Key sells e.g. the CDE "WMF" series, which use metal foil, a
polyester dielectric film, "non-inductive" winding (which usually
means that the foil sticks out past the end of the film, and the turns
of the foil are bonded directly to the wire lead), and epoxy seals at
either end. These, or similar, might be the closest thing to a
"plastic drop-in replacement" for your old paper-and-foil caps.
The film-and-foil design is often preferred for applications where
there's a high peak current (e.g. pulse applications) as the current
carrying capability of the foil is considerable.
The other (more common) option is "metallized film". In this design,
the dielectric film (polyester, polypropylene, etc.) has a thin
conductive metal layer deposited on one side - typically via vaccum
deposition I believe. It's not discrete particles of any real size.
Two layers of this film are then spiral-wound together, with the wire
leads being bonded to the leads at the ends.
Metallized-film (sometimes "stacked film") tend to be less expensive,
and (I think) more capacity available per volume at any give voltage
rating because the conductive layer is so thin.
They are also said to have a reliability advantage, at least
potentially. If a pinhole develops in the film and two adjacent
layers short together, the short-circuit current can burn away the
conductive film right around the hole, "healing" the short.
Apparently this only works well when the film is a material with a
high oxygen content.
http://www.ecicaps.com/tech-tools/technical-papers/self-healing-affect-metallized-capacitors/
tabb...@gmail.com
Aug 9, 2017, 4:53:50 PM8/9/17
to
On Wednesday, 9 August 2017 19:50:17 UTC+1, Michael Terrell wrote:
> Ceramic capacitors are mostly cheap crap. Some have a wide change in
> capacitance, at different voltages. Some are microphonic, and their
> normal failure mode is a dead short. About the only place they should be
> used are for DC bybass, or in low power tuned circuits.
Hmmm. I've not found them crap. Excluding MLCCs, which are a different animal to the rest, ceramics are immune to the melting problems of some plastic film caps, their light weight aids robustness, they're small, they typically handle way above rated voltage without trouble if ever necessary. Slight microphony is not a problem in lots of applications - it is only very slight. The C/V gotcha only applies to some, and obviously one need be aware of it at design time and choose accordingly.
> Ceramic capacitors are mostly cheap crap. Some have a wide change in
> capacitance, at different voltages. Some are microphonic, and their
> normal failure mode is a dead short. About the only place they should be
> used are for DC bybass, or in low power tuned circuits.
All parts have their issues, and ceramics behave fine and are very reliable in a lot of situations. As with everything, not in every situation.
NT
tabb...@gmail.com
Aug 9, 2017, 4:58:16 PM8/9/17
to
Trying to replicate all the defects of the original caps is pointless, there is no upside to it. That isn't true of some parts but it is of caps.
NT
Michael A. Terrell
Aug 9, 2017, 5:02:04 PM8/9/17
to
too many shorted Ceramics in HV circuits, and I've replaced too many
shorted disk capacitors in 5V circuits. Some have burnt holes in PC
boards, when they are on a high current rail. "The C/V gotcha" can cause
distortion in audio circuits, or cause an AGC circuit to 'pump'.
tabb...@gmail.com
Aug 9, 2017, 8:15:49 PM8/9/17
to
On Wednesday, 9 August 2017 22:02:04 UTC+1, Michael Terrell wrote:
Those last 2 are examples of using them where not suited. If I use ceramics as audio decoupling they need to either not have the C/V gotcha or be big enough to still have enough capacity down at 20Hz to not get in the way AND the dc component across them needs to remain steady.
NT
NT
rickman
Aug 9, 2017, 9:00:07 PM8/9/17
to
voltage. The C/V effect is relative to the rated voltage so if that is
several times the circuit voltage there won't be much effect. It's when you
try to operate near the rated voltage that it causes problems. I've also
seen data that indicates the larger package parts have lower coefficients of
capacitance change with voltage.
You can also use C0G types which have a better dielectric which has a very
low coefficient of capacitance change with voltage.
--
Rick C
tabb...@gmail.com
Aug 9, 2017, 9:37:06 PM8/9/17
to
On Thursday, 10 August 2017 02:00:07 UTC+1, rickman wrote:
John Larkin tested a 4.7uF 50v cap and found 0.8uF at 30v, 1.33uF at 20v, 2.86uF at 10v. It was down over 90% at rated V, 0.42uF.
> I've also
> seen data that indicates the larger package parts have lower coefficients of
> capacitance change with voltage.
>
> You can also use C0G types which have a better dielectric which has a very
> low coefficient of capacitance change with voltage.
Of course. But one doesn't need C0G for run of the mill decoupling, bypassing etc.
NT
> tabbypurr wrote on 8/9/2017 8:15 PM:
> > On Wednesday, 9 August 2017 22:02:04 UTC+1, Michael Terrell wrote:
> >> tabbypurr wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, 9 August 2017 19:50:17 UTC+1, Michael Terrell wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Ceramic capacitors are mostly cheap crap. Some have a wide change in
> >>>> capacitance, at different voltages. Some are microphonic, and their
> >>>> normal failure mode is a dead short. About the only place they should be
> >>>> used are for DC bybass, or in low power tuned circuits.
> >>>
> >>> Hmmm. I've not found them crap. Excluding MLCCs, which are a different animal to the rest, ceramics are immune to the melting problems of some plastic film caps, their light weight aids robustness, they're small, they typically handle way above rated voltage without trouble if ever necessary. Slight microphony is not a problem in lots of applications - it is only very slight. The C/V gotcha only applies to some, and obviously one need be aware of it at design time and choose accordingly.
> >>>
> >>> All parts have their issues, and ceramics behave fine and are very reliable in a lot of situations. As with everything, not in every situation.
> >>
> >>
> >> If the originals were paper, I always use film capacitors. I've had
> >> too many shorted Ceramics in HV circuits, and I've replaced too many
> >> shorted disk capacitors in 5V circuits. Some have burnt holes in PC
> >> boards, when they are on a high current rail. "The C/V gotcha" can cause
> >> distortion in audio circuits, or cause an AGC circuit to 'pump'.
> >
> > Those last 2 are examples of using them where not suited. If I use ceramics as audio decoupling they need to either not have the C/V gotcha or be big enough to still have enough capacity down at 20Hz to not get in the way AND the dc component across them needs to remain steady.
>
> The C/V "gotcha" is best mitigated by using a part that is overrated for
> voltage. The C/V effect is relative to the rated voltage so if that is
> several times the circuit voltage there won't be much effect. It's when you
> try to operate near the rated voltage that it causes problems.
Picking a random Y5V, C is down to just 20% at 40% rated V, 40% C at 20% rated V.
> > On Wednesday, 9 August 2017 22:02:04 UTC+1, Michael Terrell wrote:
> >> tabbypurr wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, 9 August 2017 19:50:17 UTC+1, Michael Terrell wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Ceramic capacitors are mostly cheap crap. Some have a wide change in
> >>>> capacitance, at different voltages. Some are microphonic, and their
> >>>> normal failure mode is a dead short. About the only place they should be
> >>>> used are for DC bybass, or in low power tuned circuits.
> >>>
> >>> Hmmm. I've not found them crap. Excluding MLCCs, which are a different animal to the rest, ceramics are immune to the melting problems of some plastic film caps, their light weight aids robustness, they're small, they typically handle way above rated voltage without trouble if ever necessary. Slight microphony is not a problem in lots of applications - it is only very slight. The C/V gotcha only applies to some, and obviously one need be aware of it at design time and choose accordingly.
> >>>
> >>> All parts have their issues, and ceramics behave fine and are very reliable in a lot of situations. As with everything, not in every situation.
> >>
> >>
> >> If the originals were paper, I always use film capacitors. I've had
> >> too many shorted Ceramics in HV circuits, and I've replaced too many
> >> shorted disk capacitors in 5V circuits. Some have burnt holes in PC
> >> boards, when they are on a high current rail. "The C/V gotcha" can cause
> >> distortion in audio circuits, or cause an AGC circuit to 'pump'.
> >
> > Those last 2 are examples of using them where not suited. If I use ceramics as audio decoupling they need to either not have the C/V gotcha or be big enough to still have enough capacity down at 20Hz to not get in the way AND the dc component across them needs to remain steady.
>
> The C/V "gotcha" is best mitigated by using a part that is overrated for
> voltage. The C/V effect is relative to the rated voltage so if that is
> several times the circuit voltage there won't be much effect. It's when you
> try to operate near the rated voltage that it causes problems.
John Larkin tested a 4.7uF 50v cap and found 0.8uF at 30v, 1.33uF at 20v, 2.86uF at 10v. It was down over 90% at rated V, 0.42uF.
> I've also
> seen data that indicates the larger package parts have lower coefficients of
> capacitance change with voltage.
>
> You can also use C0G types which have a better dielectric which has a very
> low coefficient of capacitance change with voltage.
NT
rickman
Aug 9, 2017, 10:26:25 PM8/9/17
to
tabb...@gmail.com wrote on 8/9/2017 9:37 PM:
> On Thursday, 10 August 2017 02:00:07 UTC+1, rickman wrote:
>> tabbypurr wrote on 8/9/2017 8:15 PM:
>>> On Wednesday, 9 August 2017 22:02:04 UTC+1, Michael Terrell wrote:
>>>> tabbypurr wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, 9 August 2017 19:50:17 UTC+1, Michael Terrell wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Ceramic capacitors are mostly cheap crap. Some have a wide change in
>>>>>> capacitance, at different voltages. Some are microphonic, and their
>>>>>> normal failure mode is a dead short. About the only place they should be
>>>>>> used are for DC bybass, or in low power tuned circuits.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hmmm. I've not found them crap. Excluding MLCCs, which are a different animal to the rest, ceramics are immune to the melting problems of some plastic film caps, their light weight aids robustness, they're small, they typically handle way above rated voltage without trouble if ever necessary. Slight microphony is not a problem in lots of applications - it is only very slight. The C/V gotcha only applies to some, and obviously one need be aware of it at design time and choose accordingly.
>>>>>
>>>>> All parts have their issues, and ceramics behave fine and are very reliable in a lot of situations. As with everything, not in every situation.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If the originals were paper, I always use film capacitors. I've had
>>>> too many shorted Ceramics in HV circuits, and I've replaced too many
>>>> shorted disk capacitors in 5V circuits. Some have burnt holes in PC
>>>> boards, when they are on a high current rail. "The C/V gotcha" can cause
>>>> distortion in audio circuits, or cause an AGC circuit to 'pump'.
>>>
>>> Those last 2 are examples of using them where not suited. If I use ceramics as audio decoupling they need to either not have the C/V gotcha or be big enough to still have enough capacity down at 20Hz to not get in the way AND the dc component across them needs to remain steady.
>>
>> The C/V "gotcha" is best mitigated by using a part that is overrated for
>> voltage. The C/V effect is relative to the rated voltage so if that is
>> several times the circuit voltage there won't be much effect. It's when you
>> try to operate near the rated voltage that it causes problems.
>
> Picking a random Y5V, C is down to just 20% at 40% rated V, 40% C at 20% rated V.
> John Larkin tested a 4.7uF 50v cap and found 0.8uF at 30v, 1.33uF at 20v, 2.86uF at 10v. It was down over 90% at rated V, 0.42uF.
Yeah, if you are going to pick the worse possible type of cap it won't work
> On Thursday, 10 August 2017 02:00:07 UTC+1, rickman wrote:
>> tabbypurr wrote on 8/9/2017 8:15 PM:
>>> On Wednesday, 9 August 2017 22:02:04 UTC+1, Michael Terrell wrote:
>>>> tabbypurr wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, 9 August 2017 19:50:17 UTC+1, Michael Terrell wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Ceramic capacitors are mostly cheap crap. Some have a wide change in
>>>>>> capacitance, at different voltages. Some are microphonic, and their
>>>>>> normal failure mode is a dead short. About the only place they should be
>>>>>> used are for DC bybass, or in low power tuned circuits.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hmmm. I've not found them crap. Excluding MLCCs, which are a different animal to the rest, ceramics are immune to the melting problems of some plastic film caps, their light weight aids robustness, they're small, they typically handle way above rated voltage without trouble if ever necessary. Slight microphony is not a problem in lots of applications - it is only very slight. The C/V gotcha only applies to some, and obviously one need be aware of it at design time and choose accordingly.
>>>>>
>>>>> All parts have their issues, and ceramics behave fine and are very reliable in a lot of situations. As with everything, not in every situation.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If the originals were paper, I always use film capacitors. I've had
>>>> too many shorted Ceramics in HV circuits, and I've replaced too many
>>>> shorted disk capacitors in 5V circuits. Some have burnt holes in PC
>>>> boards, when they are on a high current rail. "The C/V gotcha" can cause
>>>> distortion in audio circuits, or cause an AGC circuit to 'pump'.
>>>
>>> Those last 2 are examples of using them where not suited. If I use ceramics as audio decoupling they need to either not have the C/V gotcha or be big enough to still have enough capacity down at 20Hz to not get in the way AND the dc component across them needs to remain steady.
>>
>> The C/V "gotcha" is best mitigated by using a part that is overrated for
>> voltage. The C/V effect is relative to the rated voltage so if that is
>> several times the circuit voltage there won't be much effect. It's when you
>> try to operate near the rated voltage that it causes problems.
>
> Picking a random Y5V, C is down to just 20% at 40% rated V, 40% C at 20% rated V.
> John Larkin tested a 4.7uF 50v cap and found 0.8uF at 30v, 1.33uF at 20v, 2.86uF at 10v. It was down over 90% at rated V, 0.42uF.
as well. Try an X5R type and it works a lot better.
>> I've also
>> seen data that indicates the larger package parts have lower coefficients of
>> capacitance change with voltage.
>>
>> You can also use C0G types which have a better dielectric which has a very
>> low coefficient of capacitance change with voltage.
>
> Of course. But one doesn't need C0G for run of the mill decoupling, bypassing etc.
--
Rick C
Jim Mueller
Aug 9, 2017, 10:47:44 PM8/9/17
to
ratings high enough for tube gear. Polyester (Mylar) or Polypropylene
are better choices.
As for the quality of ceramic capacitors, it depends on what kind of
ceramic is used. C0G ceramics are about the best capacitors you can
easily get. They are very stable, have very low loss, and are excellent
in just about every other way. The one way they are not excellent is
that, except for low values (less than around 1000pF - depends on
manufacturer) they are large and expensive. Mid grade ceramics like X7R
are less stable and less expensive. They are suitable for most audio
frequency work. The really bad ceramics are the ones like Z5U. They are
truly horrible in most ways and are suitable only for non-critical
circuits like supply bypassing. They are, however, tiny and very cheap.
Go to the manufacturer's data sheet for the capacitors you want to use to
see if their characteristics match the application.
--
Jim Mueller wron...@nospam.com
To get my real email address, replace wrongname with eggmen.
Then replace nospam with expressmail. Lastly, replace com with dk.
Big Bad Bob
Aug 15, 2017, 11:15:05 PM8/15/17
to
On 08/09/17 19:47, Jim Mueller wrote:
> Go to the manufacturer's data sheet for the capacitors you want to use to
> see if their characteristics match the application.
ack on that. it's always good advice to see the data sheet.
> Go to the manufacturer's data sheet for the capacitors you want to use to
> see if their characteristics match the application.
Somewhat recently, I bought some 500V 0.047uF ceramics that I use for
high freq bypass in a 400V power supply. I checked, it's X7R. no
problems noted. (got them from digikey along with others)
but yeah, the part selectors don't give you a whole lot of choice for
capacitors at voltages about 100V, sometimes. Still, I've never had a
problem with what I've purchased that way.
--
your story is so touching, but it sounds just like a lie
"Straighten up and fly right"
Big Bad Bob
Aug 15, 2017, 11:20:34 PM8/15/17
to
actually, I'd think that you just have to be careful and pick a
reputable manufacturer.
reputable manufacturer.
Big Bad Bob
Aug 15, 2017, 11:21:56 PM8/15/17
to
On 03/10/17 05:34, Foxs Mercantile wrote:
> There's that magic word "feelings" again. Based on nothing.
yeah, 'Feel' the 'F' word. so many bad decisions are made in the name
> There's that magic word "feelings" again. Based on nothing.
of 'Feel'.
Big Bad Bob
Aug 15, 2017, 11:24:45 PM8/15/17
to
On 08/09/17 19:47, Jim Mueller wrote:
> It will be tough to find good ceramics in the values listed with voltage
> ratings high enough for tube gear. Polyester (Mylar) or Polypropylene
> are better choices.
that might be in a lot of cases. I haven't had that much trouble, but
> ratings high enough for tube gear. Polyester (Mylar) or Polypropylene
> are better choices.
price DOES go up rather fast as the rated voltage increases. I'll
consider mylar/poly capacitors also, test, see what happens.
rickman
Aug 16, 2017, 1:53:20 AM8/16/17
to
feelings. You may have conditioned yourself to weight your feelings on
"logic", but it still comes down to feelings and we have ways of working
around the logic when we want to.
As you say, too often we take a bypass based on some limited experience or
even anecdote we've heard that gives us a "feeling" with little rational
process behind it. See a couple of bad capacitors from any given company or
category of supplier and a strong bias develops which works to bypass that
source.
--
Rick C
tabb...@gmail.com
Aug 16, 2017, 7:44:33 PM8/16/17
to
On Wednesday, 16 August 2017 04:20:34 UTC+1, Big Bad Bob wrote:
> On 03/10/17 02:04, olds...@tubes.com wrote:
> > Not much of anything made in China is a quality item
>
> actually, I'd think that you just have to be careful and pick a
> reputable manufacturer.
A useful percentage of it (unknown China brands) is ok quality. A fair bit is pretty abysmal. Electronics seems to be worse than mechanical tools.
> On 03/10/17 02:04, olds...@tubes.com wrote:
> > Not much of anything made in China is a quality item
>
> actually, I'd think that you just have to be careful and pick a
> reputable manufacturer.
NT
pf...@aol.com
Aug 17, 2017, 7:56:15 AM8/17/17
to
On Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 7:44:33 PM UTC-4, tabb...@gmail.com wrote:
Electronics seems to be worse than mechanical tools.
Not possible. Chinese tools are killers.
Electronics seems to be worse than mechanical tools.
tabb...@gmail.com
Aug 17, 2017, 12:55:46 PM8/17/17
to
On Thursday, 17 August 2017 12:56:15 UTC+1, pf...@aol.com wrote:
NT
> On Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 7:44:33 PM UTC-4, tabby wrote:
> Electronics seems to be worse than mechanical tools.
>
>
> Not possible. Chinese tools are killers.
I had a close call with one, but a lot of them are fine. Not really so with electronics.
> Electronics seems to be worse than mechanical tools.
>
>
> Not possible. Chinese tools are killers.
NT
Big Bad Bob
Aug 24, 2017, 11:51:56 AM8/24/17
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On 08/15/17 22:53, rickman wrote:
> Big Bad Bob wrote on 8/15/2017 11:21 PM:
>> On 03/10/17 05:34, Foxs Mercantile wrote:
>>> There's that magic word "feelings" again. Based on nothing.
>>
>> yeah, 'Feel' the 'F' word. so many bad decisions are made in the name of
>> 'Feel'.
>
> Once you learn about human reasoning you will find it *always* comes
> down to feelings.
Uh, NO.
> Big Bad Bob wrote on 8/15/2017 11:21 PM:
>> On 03/10/17 05:34, Foxs Mercantile wrote:
>>> There's that magic word "feelings" again. Based on nothing.
>>
>> yeah, 'Feel' the 'F' word. so many bad decisions are made in the name of
>> 'Feel'.
>
> Once you learn about human reasoning you will find it *always* comes
> down to feelings.
rickman
Aug 24, 2017, 11:54:24 AM8/24/17
to
Big Bad Bob wrote on 8/24/2017 11:51 AM:
> On 08/15/17 22:53, rickman wrote:
>> Big Bad Bob wrote on 8/15/2017 11:21 PM:
>>> On 03/10/17 05:34, Foxs Mercantile wrote:
>>>> There's that magic word "feelings" again. Based on nothing.
>>>
>>> yeah, 'Feel' the 'F' word. so many bad decisions are made in the name of
>>> 'Feel'.
>>
>> Once you learn about human reasoning you will find it *always* comes down
>> to feelings.
>
> Uh, NO.
Uh, YES!
> On 08/15/17 22:53, rickman wrote:
>> Big Bad Bob wrote on 8/15/2017 11:21 PM:
>>> On 03/10/17 05:34, Foxs Mercantile wrote:
>>>> There's that magic word "feelings" again. Based on nothing.
>>>
>>> yeah, 'Feel' the 'F' word. so many bad decisions are made in the name of
>>> 'Feel'.
>>
>> Once you learn about human reasoning you will find it *always* comes down
>> to feelings.
>
> Uh, NO.
--
Rick C
Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms,
on the centerline of totality since 1998
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