Ham Radio license

[Erholt Rhein]

None of the Ham FAQs have this privacy question.
http://wireless.fcc.gov/uls/index.htm?job=faq

Q: Can you get a USA Ham Radio license WITHOUT giving the gob'ment your SSN?

[jurb...@gmail.com]

Unlikely. For what reason though ? If you declare sovereignty then you are not beholden to licensing laws within reason, that is as long as you harm noone. If you are a normal citizen then it really doesn't matter, there is no way to hide if they want you. Itis a simple matter of triangulation.

I am not sure about if you remove yourself from social security, which is possible despite popular belief, and even misinformation on their own website and via their representatives. You then face troubles opening any new bank accounts and a few other things. And don't even register to vote if you consider yourself apart from the corporate entity.

Removing yourself from corporatehood is not easy and not recommended for everyone. What's more you get none of your moneys back that you paid in, like SS even though you forfeit your right to collect, and federal income taxes. And you are still a state Citizen. That is "State" citizen.

These are complex issues and it is very difficult to obtain good information these days. There are too many quacks that sell you their plan that will get you thrown in jail and marked as a possible threat. Not worth it for most people.

If you remain a citizen of the corporate United States rather than a Citizen of the united states you must give up that social security number whenever they ask for it, if you have one. Remaining a corporate citizen without on is almost impossible, if not outright impossible.

And why not give it up ? They probably have it anyway, or will.

[Erholt Rhein]

jurb...@gmail.com wrote in
<news:9514670e-c113-4297...@googlegroups.com>:

Your comments are appropriate, where the government has no business
associating your pension plan with the Ham Radio License.

What does a Ham Radio License have to do with my pension plan anyway?

It's just another case of government abuse of power.
a. They put a law in place for reason X.
b. Then they abuse their own laws for reason Y.

So the use of the social security number for anything other than the
pension plan is a clear abuse of the original intent of the law that was
passed.

They passed the law with duplicity.

So I would prefer to give them my real name, my real address, my real phone
number, my real birth date, my real height and weight, etc., but what on
earth does a Ham Radio License have to do with my pension plan?

It's a privacy violation that violates the intent of the law.
--
Yes, I know it's "voluntary" to give anyone the SSN.

[Fox's Mercantile]

On 4/4/18 7:45 PM, Erholt Rhein wrote:
> Q: Can you get a USA Ham Radio license WITHOUT giving the
> gob'ment your SSN?

Just do it and get over yourself.


--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

[bitrex]

If you're a US resident then who cares, the government already has your
SSN, they're the ones who gave it to you!

If you're a foreign operator who wants to be licensed to operate in the
US then clearly a US SSN is not a requirement, you probably have to send
them a birth certificate and proof of citizenship of some type and they
send you an FRN.

[jurb...@gmail.com]

>"It's a privacy violation that violates the intent of the law. "

I agree, but they do it all the time. And the people don't care just like the boiling frog.

[Jeff Liebermann]

No. I order to get an FCC license of any type, you need to first get
an FRN number. To obtain an FRN number from the ULS section of CORES,
you need to give the FCC your TIN, which for individuals is your SSN:
<https://www.fcc.gov/wireless/support/universal-licensing-system-uls-resources/getting-fcc-registration-number-frn>
"Taxpayer Identification Number (TIN). For individuals this
is a Social Security Number and for businesses this is an
Employer Identification Number."


--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[jurb...@gmail.com]

>"If you're a foreign operator who wants to be licensed to operate in the US then clearly a US SSN is not a requirement,"

Actually it might just work to not claim US citizenship, but there may be other ramifications.

The reason I do not recommend it is that the process by which you gain certain legal status which includes that of a non-taxpayer is based on accusing them of fraud in a way, and the fact that they cannot answer the charge is one of the key points.

Part of that is that whatever you have done and signed into thus far was because you were unaware of this fraud. To even hint at it now may well preclude your ever being able to complete the process because at a latter date they can claim that you knew and have volunteered since. That voids the whole thing.

And people who value privacy are not the type to burn such a bridge, so I recommend just giving them the number. Don't even use TDC. (TDC means threat, duress, coercion) That is more aptly used when forced to sign something or else suffer some consequence, like not getting a driver's license or something like that, but the OP does not intend to refuse to sign and agree to be bound by the associated regulations, he wants to omit a piece of information.

This is tricky, I don't claim to know all about it but I know enough for example to pull it off myself. But others have different situations and may require a different approach.

The people I learn about this from had hired an ex-Harvard law professor top tutor them, and he could never have given that information out in his capacity as an active member of the bar. Once retired it is a different story.

[jurb...@gmail.com]

>"for businesses this is an
Employer Identification Number." "

Hmm, he could hire himself. Maybe, I would have to look into it but quite honestly I had had enough legal in my life plus I have a pro se case coming up. That is plenty.

However that is information that you can ask a lawyer. It would not put him in jeopardy to tell. Main thing is, can a business get an FCC license ? Most likely. What are any base taxes involved even if there is no pay involved ? Like getting a vendor's license, you get one and never send in any money they might start asking questions.

I would ask a lawyer about the EIN. There is also a possibility the information is online somewhere, just watch those URLS, you want an EDU or GOV at the end. (and even that is not infallible, but it is ammo incase TSHTF)

[amdx]

On 4/5/2018 12:07 AM, jurb...@gmail.com wrote:
>> "for businesses this is an
> Employer Identification Number." "
>
> Hmm, he could hire himself. Maybe, I would have to look into it but quite honestly I had had enough legal in my life plus I have a pro se case coming up.

Well, now you have me waiting for more info!
Mikek

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 4 Apr 2018 22:07:06 -0700 (PDT), jurb...@gmail.com wrote:

>>"for businesses this is an
> Employer Identification Number." "
>
>Hmm, he could hire himself. Maybe, I would have to look into it
>but quite honestly I had had enough legal in my life plus I
>have a pro se case coming up. That is plenty.

The EIN is for commercial 2-way radio business licenses. Except for
radio club licenses, all US ham licenses are issued to individuals.

"Who Can Lawfully Request My Social Security Number?"
<http://www.identityhawk.com/Who-Can-Lawfully-Request-My-Social-Security-Number/>

>However that is information that you can ask a lawyer.

Free legal advice:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=free+legal+advice>

>Main thing is, can a business get an FCC license ?

Yes, in a communications service appropriate for being operated by a
business. Ham radio is by definition NOT a business. Nice try.

>Most likely.

Totally unlikely.

>What are any base taxes involved even if there is no pay
>involved ?

No, because you cannot legally charge for using ham radio services.
There was quite a discussion going on about 20 years ago over whether
a ham radio operator could order a pizza via an autopatch. The
decision is more complexicated than I want to discuss.

>Like getting a vendor's license, you get one and never send
>in any money they might start asking questions.

If you get a business license, and furiously deduct everything in
sight on your taxes, but cannot demonstrate any income, the IRS
considers your activities to be a hobby, not a business. Businesses
are expected to separate their customers from their money, which a
hobby fails to do.

>I would ask a lawyer about the EIN. There is also a possibility
>the information is online somewhere, just watch those URLS,
>you want an EDU or GOV at the end. (and even that is not
>infallible, but it is ammo incase TSHTF)

I can see that you've never dealt with a lawyer. Asking a lawyer for
advice is an exercise in futility. You never get a definitive yes or
no answer. Instead, you get multiple possibilities, interpretations,
and actions, leaving you to flip a coin as to which action is the
correct one. If it later appears that your decision was not optimum
or correct, it's your fault, not the lawyers.

[Dave Platt]

In article <261429e4-5564-434a...@googlegroups.com>,

<jurb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>"for businesses this is an
> Employer Identification Number." "
>
>Hmm, he could hire himself. Maybe, I would have to look into it but quite honestly I had had enough legal in my life plus I have
>a pro se case coming up. That is plenty.
>
>However that is information that you can ask a lawyer. It would not put him in jeopardy to tell. Main thing is, can a business
>get an FCC license ? Most likely.

Businesses can get certain types of FCC licenses.

As I understand it, no business can get a ham license, because the use
of amateur radio for commercial purposes is forbidden. You have to be
an individual person, who can (in person) take and pass the test(s)
required for whatever amateur radio license grade you're going for.

There is such a thing as an amateur club-station license, but each
club requires at least four members, officers, and there has to be an
individually-licensed ham who acts as "trustee" for the station and
takes legal responsibility for its operation. If you don't have your
own ham license, you can only use a club station if there's a licensed
ham present to act as a "control operator", taking responsibility for
proper operation and (if necessary) "taking the keys away from you" if
you do it wrong.

[And, tangentially... I haven't yet heard of a case in which the
"Sovereign citizen" arguments have actually won out in court. If a
"sovereign citizen" refuses to pay taxes, or commits a Federal crime
and is charged for it, and uses the "sovereign citizen" arguments as
a defense... quite consistently, they lose... the courts reject these
arguments as "frivolous" or "made up".

Granted, quite a few people seem to be "flying under the radar",
e.g. failing to file/pay Federal income taxes on the grounds of being
"sovereign citizens" or "state citizens". Some get away with this
for years. However, if/when audited or charged, they don't do well
in court.

It's not an approach I recommend. You're free to dislike the Federal
government all you like, but _ignoring_ it isn't wise, especially if
you're doing so on the basis of legal arguments that the IRS and
courts have been consistently rejecting for decades, based on legal
precedents which reach back all the way to The Federalist Papers.]

[Erholt Rhein]

jurb...@gmail.com wrote in
<news:f50ac80c-50b2-4a5d...@googlegroups.com>:

>>"It's a privacy violation that violates the intent of the law. "
>
> I agree, but they do it all the time.
> And the people don't care just like the boiling frog.

It's never a case of "you can't beat city hall" but if you fight, then they
change their ways - but a lot of people have to do the fighting.

It's the American way to fight for your right to privacy.

For example, it used to be that your medical insurance was your ssn and
then Texas passed a law and now you don't have to have your medical
insurance tied to your pension plan.

The Jews in Germany didn't have that concept of fighting for their rights,
and six million of them died because of it. Had six million people fought,
like a few thousand did in Warsaw while Russia looked on watching in glee
with the Lublick government in tow, they would have almost outnumbered the
German army.

You don't fight for your rights, you lose them.
Ask the Jews if you think nobody wants to take away your rights.

Anyway, I found out how to do it.
I will write up a tutorial so that anyone else can do it too.

That's the Usenet way to give back for your free advice.

[Ragnusen Ultred]

Am Thu, 05 Apr 2018 08:13:34 -0700, schrieb Jeff Liebermann:

> I can see that you've never dealt with a lawyer.

Jeff is right about lawyers, but wrong about the FRN, but not completely
so!

It's technical, with nuance, but I was on the phone with the FCC today for
almost an hour, and the end result is that you *can* get the Ham Radio
License (Technicians Class) without giving them a SSN.

After noting that the question is not in the FCC Ham Radio FAQ
http://wireless.fcc.gov/uls/index.htm?job=faq

I called the FCC today at 202-418-4120 & was bounced all over the FCC:
https://www.fcc.gov/wireless/available-support-services

So this is a summary, which is simpler than what actually happened.

Starting here (877-480-3201), you hit x4 to get the FRN department who
knows about FRN numbers but not licensing.

Starting here (877-480-3201), you hit x2 to get the ULS department who
knows about licensing but not about FRN numbers.

Bouncing back and forth between them, you end up finding out:
- You can tell the FCC that you don't have a SSN (don't ask, don't tell)
- Or, you can use the last 4 digits & get a "Restricted Use FRN"
- Or, you can use zero digits & get a "Special Use FRN" (form 323).

The latter two really don't apply to individuals, but they will "probably"
work. I have a few FRNs already, as the FRN guy walked me through the whole
process, where I advise you have, ahead of time, this written down:

1. You must give them a real email address (they send a verification note).
2. You can register for as many FRNs as you want with that email address.
3. The password is a bitch (no fewer than 12 characters, no more than 15
characters, a number, both cases, & a special character)
4. Best best is to register for a "regular" FRN & don't give them the SSN

Here are the steps:
A. Go to the FCC web site
https://www.fcc.gov
B. On the top blue bar, press the "Licensing & Databases" tab
https://www.fcc.gov/licensing
C. On the left side, click the "FCC Registration System (CORES)" link
https://www.fcc.gov/licensing-databases/fcc-registration-commission-registration-system
D. On the right hand side, click "Register and update Username Account"
https://apps2.fcc.gov/fccUserReg/pages/login.htm
E. On the right hand side, click to create a new account
https://apps2.fcc.gov/fccUserReg/pages/createAccount.htm
F. Check your email for the verification mail & click the verification link
G. Now go back to step C/D to "Create, update and associate FRN(s)"
https://apps.fcc.gov/cores/userLogin.do
H. When you log in, you'll end up in your "user home"
https://apps.fcc.gov/cores/userHome.do
I. Click on the "Register New FRN" link
https://apps.fcc.gov/cores/regEntityType.do?csfrToken=6dP6ZynBdGwNQz8EU22jH46gL0NnA7SVu8PoiJJPXTCFnyAhzPAxQAvfjuDVtKvo
J. It's ok to tell the truth here that you're an individual in the USA
K. When you hit the "continue" button, now you have to decide
Do you want a "restricted use FRN" (i.e., only requires 4 SSN digits) <--- this is what the FRN helpdesk suggested
Do you want a "regular use FRN" (i.e., doesn't require a SSN)
L. I did both, so I have _two_ FRNs now, but you can pick one.
M. Most people will pick a "regular" FRN so let's do that now
N. Click on "CORES FRN Registration" link & press "continue"
O. Fill out the form noticing the line that says:
If you do not have a Social Security Number, select a reason:
P. The available reasons are:
- Applied for
- Exempted Activities <----- this is what the ULS helpdesk suggested
- The individual is a petitioner
- The individual is foreign
Q. Enter in the following required information:
- First Name: (it takes an initial)
- Last Name:
- Address:
- City: (always amazes me they ask for city when they have zip)
- Zip:
- State: (always amazes me they ask for state when they have zip)
- Email: (why ask this if you're already logged in?)
R. Press "Submit" and you'll get an immediate on-screen confirmation:
"Thank you for registering with the FCC.
As of today, Apr 5 2018 9:44AM, you have been assigned the following
FCC Registration Number (FRN): 0072678193"
S. Write that number down as you don't seem to get an email confirmation.

Don't do what I ended up doing, which is that the FRN helpdesk told me to
create a "restricted use FRN" so I did (which still requires the last four
digits of your SSN); but the ULS helpdesk told me to create an "Exempted
Activities" FRN (which they told me is for people who don't want to give
out their SSN) - so now I have both.

You can't delete the FRN on the web page but you can ask the FCC to delete
it by sending an email to "coresh...@fcc.gov" and the form 323 people
don't have a phone number but you can ask questions of them via email to
"for...@fcc.gov".

Let me know if I left anything out that you need, but this seems to be the
process, where both the CORES and FRN people told me lots of people ask the
question (so why isn't it in the FCC FAQ?).

[Erholt Rhein]

Ragnusen Ultred wrote in <news:pa5re7$18k5$1...@gioia.aioe.org>:

> Let me know if I left anything out that you need, but this seems to be the
> process, where both the CORES and FRN people told me lots of people ask the
> question (so why isn't it in the FCC FAQ?).

Excellent!
Thanks!

[bitrex]

I thought about getting a ham license at one point and even as a US
citizen it all just seemed like a huge hassle for not much reward. If
I'd been born in the 50s or 60s I probably would've gotten into it, but
I was born in the dying days of disco instead.

Instead of buying a secondhand shortwave radio I bought a secondhand
2400 bps modem. Mom and Dad humored me but thought this whole "computers
talking to each other" thing was just a weird fad, like CB radio. Oh well...

[bitrex]

It took me all summer to save up for that little external modem and an
extra one megabyte stick of RAM, that shit was expensive in 1992. Less
than two years later I took home a 9600 bps modem sitting in my high
school's trash bin.

[bitrex]

Nice job

[Fox's Mercantile]

On 4/5/18 1:55 PM, Ragnusen Ultred wrote:
> Jeff is right about lawyers, but wrong about the FRN, but
> not completely so!

Considering that you're the same name shifting troll that posts
endless threads about brake shoes, Apple batteries, smoke
machines, front end alignment and on and on and on...

I'm going dismiss what you just posted as more of your long
rambling bullshit.

[jurb...@gmail.com]

I can't think of anyone's opinions and advice I respect more than yours, but...

>"As I understand it, no business can get a ham license, because the use of amateur radio for commercial purposes is forbidden. "

That makes sense. I have wondered about businesses owning vehicles, is there a requirement there for at least one person to be in control and put his name on the line, or can it be just in a company name. Same with property. These are things I never found out because I never had any reason to.

>"I haven't yet heard of a case in which the
"Sovereign citizen" arguments have actually won out in court."

That is not how it's done. Being sovereign has very little meaning, when you make well into six figures, being a non-taxpayer does have meaning. there is a specific process, and then you can't engage in certain contracts with the government. In fact you can't even sign a W-4 so you will forever be self employed or find an employer who will operate in a way that facilitates your wishes in the matter. I have found employers who simply pay cash so it is a moot point then anyway. No paper trail, nothing happens. Also when you do this you don't just not file a 1040, you CAN'T file a 1040 because it is one of the types of contracts with the government which blows the whole thing, and it only works once. In act, you can't be audited if you don't file. Also, the people who beat them did not file, if you file you lose. When you sign your name at the bottom it is not s receipt, it is a contract and an acknowledgement of jurisdiction to a private corporation, the IRS. Though chartered by the government they are incorporated just like General Motors, no better no worse. Same with the Federal Reserve. When you open a bank account you are entering into a contract with them. In each of those cases the contract is one in which they can change the terms for both parties, you and them at will and you cannot. It is technically repugnant to the common law but since you have the "constitutional" right to sign into it, it flies.

The other thing about tax court, you won't hear about the people who beat them, they do not like to publicize it. That is the same with any court, if you make them fear public scrutiny on anything it works in your favor. In some cases you file nearly all your evidence in the form of affidavits to the clerk of courts so that it is a matter of public record even if the judge has it stricken from the record of the proceedings.

And you're right, a lawyer will not tell you these things. That is unless you pick the right lawyer. That is not the easiest thing to do. For something like a DUI for example when you really are actually guilty, you want one who CAN litigate but you don't want him TO litigate. oyu want one who knows the judge and prosecutor and can get the thing moved into chambers out of the busybodies are MADD etc. but if you cause actual injuries and those people are not satisfied they can make it impossible.

Other matter are totally different story. you can actually defend yourself better than a lawyer because he has a few things in that oath with which you do not have to abide. That is if you know what you're doing, and nobody goes to law school just top defend themselves and without that license they will not be defending anyone else. Of course telling you anything will cost money because it either makes them money or it doesn't. If you don't hire them you can pay for their time and that creates privilege. But you still have to find the right one(s). If you thought finding a good pizza place was hard...

The techniques you use in a tax court, which is a civil court with a few extraordinary powers, are different than those used for a regular tort case or a criminal case. My friends hired an ex-law professor from Harvard to tutor them, and they beat the IRS. he wasn't worried about his oath anymore. He also help one totally wreck them in a criminal trial.

Let's put it this way, if you get caught selling weed (marked money and all) and they find your (expensive I personally know...) grow room, weapons and all kind of shit, what do you expect ? Well with a lawyer he lost, but operating pro se he won the appeal. But that should have happened the first time because unbeknownst to most people, if you win the appeal you are still convicted. Actually the same is true of a presidential pardon.

>" It's not an approach I recommend."

I agree, it is not for everybody. But there are some who it does benefit, and that is not publicized.

The instructions for the process look like a phone book.

[jurb...@gmail.com]

That first line was not meant for you, sorry.

I don't mean anything negative by that but the posts got mixed up. Frikken Google with no tree view.

[Ragnusen Ultred]

Am Thu, 5 Apr 2018 21:25:24 -0500, schrieb Fox's Mercantile:

> Considering that you're the same name shifting troll that posts
> endless threads about brake shoes, Apple batteries, smoke
> machines, front end alignment and on and on and on...
>
> I'm going dismiss what you just posted as more of your long
> rambling bullshit.

*Hi Snit* (aka Fox's Mercantile),

You *never* add value to *any* thread.

The problem with you, Snit, is that you can't possibly ever post anything
but accusations of trolls.

*You can't answer an on-topic question if you needed to save your life.*
1. You have zero technical expertise
2. You have zero intent to be helpful
3. You just want to accuse everyone else of exactly what you are doing.

Hence, you can't stay on topic and you always accuse everyone else of doing
what you constantly do, Snit.

Just watch.

[Fox's Mercantile]

On 4/6/18 5:17 AM, Ragnusen Ultred wrote:
> Am Thu, 5 Apr 2018 21:25:24 -0500, schrieb Fox's Mercantile:
>
>> Considering that you're the same name shifting troll that posts
>> endless threads about brake shoes, Apple batteries, smoke
>> machines, front end alignment and on and on and on...
>>
>> I'm going dismiss what you just posted as more of your long
>> rambling bullshit.
>
> *Hi Snit* (aka Fox's Mercantile),

I was right, and you just proved it by going off,

And I'm not fucking Snit you asshole.

[Ragnusen Ultred]

Am Fri, 6 Apr 2018 09:48:56 -0500, schrieb Fox's Mercantile:

> And I'm not fucking Snit you asshole.

And yet, you prove in every post what you can't hide, which is that you are
Snit.

1. You have zero helpful intent
2. You have zero technical capabiltiees
3. Hence you can only troll - and - you accuse everyone else of trolling.

*You are _Snit_, Fox Mercantile.*

You just hate that everyone knows it.

[Fox's Mercantile]

On 4/6/18 10:41 AM, Ragnusen Ultred wrote:
> *You are _Snit_, Fox Mercantile.*

BWahahaha, I'm not Snit, but you're still an asshole.

[Ragnusen Ultred]

Am Fri, 6 Apr 2018 11:16:01 -0500, schrieb Fox's Mercantile:

> BWahahaha, I'm not Snit, but you're still an asshole.

Hehhehheh ... and yet, you *are Snit*, which you prove in every post!

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 5 Apr 2018 21:28:59 -0400, bitrex
<bit...@de.lete.earthlink.net> wrote:

>I thought about getting a ham license at one point and even as a US
>citizen it all just seemed like a huge hassle for not much reward. If
>I'd been born in the 50s or 60s I probably would've gotten into it, but
>I was born in the dying days of disco instead.

I was born in the late 40's and obtained a ham license when I was
about 13 years old. Sputnik had been launched about 3 years earlier
(1957) and the US went nuts.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=sputnik+fever>
We were going to beat the Russians in the space race by cranking out
more scientists and engineers. Also, us kids also couldn't help
noticing that the parents were genuinely worried about Russia
attacking with missiles and bombers. So, any kid with even the
slightest technical ability was encouraged to go into some kind of
technical field. So, I got into ham radio.

>Instead of buying a secondhand shortwave radio I bought a secondhand
>2400 bps modem. Mom and Dad humored me but thought this whole "computers
>talking to each other" thing was just a weird fad, like CB radio. Oh well...

You missed the earlier 110 and 300 baud modems with acoustic couplers.
Nothing worked as expected or consistently. Turn on some music in the
same room, and the error rate would climb.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=anderson+jacobson+acoustic+coupler&tbm=isch>
The nice part was that I could use it with a pay phone. Ah,
nostalgia.

[Fox's Mercantile]

On 4/6/18 11:52 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=anderson+jacobson+acoustic+coupler&tbm=isch>
> The nice part was that I could use it with a pay phone. Ah,
> nostalgia.

Heh, I still have one. Want it?

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 6 Apr 2018 12:08:36 -0500, Fox's Mercantile <jda...@att.net>
wrote:

>On 4/6/18 11:52 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=anderson+jacobson+acoustic+coupler&tbm=isch>
>> The nice part was that I could use it with a pay phone. Ah,
>> nostalgia.

>Heh, I still have one. Want it?

Which one? The pay phone or the AJ acoustic coupler modem? I'll
assume the coupler.

Methinks I will need to regretfully decline your generous offer. I
spent my first half century collecting such things and am now spending
my next half century getting rid of the junk.

BTW, I previously had one of these:
<http://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/networking/19/371/2023>
but gave it to a collector of telco gizmos about 10 years ago.

[Fox's Mercantile]

On 4/6/18 1:22 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> Which one? The pay phone or the AJ acoustic coupler modem? I'll
> assume the coupler.

Well, I didn't really expect you to jump on it.

> Methinks I will need to regretfully decline your generous offer.

I understand, I'm working on "thinning the herd" here myself.

[bitrex]

On 04/06/2018 12:52 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Thu, 5 Apr 2018 21:28:59 -0400, bitrex
> <bit...@de.lete.earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> I thought about getting a ham license at one point and even as a US
>> citizen it all just seemed like a huge hassle for not much reward. If
>> I'd been born in the 50s or 60s I probably would've gotten into it, but
>> I was born in the dying days of disco instead.
>
> I was born in the late 40's and obtained a ham license when I was
> about 13 years old. Sputnik had been launched about 3 years earlier
> (1957) and the US went nuts.
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=sputnik+fever>
> We were going to beat the Russians in the space race by cranking out
> more scientists and engineers. Also, us kids also couldn't help
> noticing that the parents were genuinely worried about Russia
> attacking with missiles and bombers. So, any kid with even the
> slightest technical ability was encouraged to go into some kind of
> technical field. So, I got into ham radio.

My junior high school was built around that time and had a small
planetarium, I guess they wanted to get the students of 50s and 60s
thinking about space?

Sadly by the time I was a student there in the early 1990s the
planetarium dome hadn't been used in years and the room converted into a
lecture hall for larger classes, the planetarium projector gizmo either
damaged and no spare parts/too expensive to fix, or just nobody still
there who recalled how to operate it.

A few years later the little dome was torn down and the wing renovated
into the school's computer lab.

>> Instead of buying a secondhand shortwave radio I bought a secondhand
>> 2400 bps modem. Mom and Dad humored me but thought this whole "computers
>> talking to each other" thing was just a weird fad, like CB radio. Oh well...
>
> You missed the earlier 110 and 300 baud modems with acoustic couplers.
> Nothing worked as expected or consistently. Turn on some music in the
> same room, and the error rate would climb.
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=anderson+jacobson+acoustic+coupler&tbm=isch>
> The nice part was that I could use it with a pay phone. Ah,
> nostalgia.

The first PC we had in the house was a Leading Edge 386 16MHz probably
purchased around 1990, it came with 1 meg of RAM stock. A "budget" model
but still probably cost them fortune, we were never exactly wealthy
folks and a business-class 486 cost the better part of 10k then.

The secondhand modem I bought looked a lot like this:

<https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71vePa6mXgL._SL1500_.jpg>

but I think it was a generic "Hayes Compatible" model not a name brand.

We got a lot of life out of more or less the same rig though; the 386
with an extra meg of RAM and 56k modem from 1996 sometime ran Windows
3.1 fine and served as the household "email server" until they sold the
home circa 2001

[Dave Platt]

In article <acf85fb1-86c2-4217...@googlegroups.com>,

<jurb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>I can't think of anyone's opinions and advice I respect more than yours, but...
>
>>"As I understand it, no business can get a ham license, because the use
>of amateur radio for commercial purposes is forbidden. "
>
>That makes sense. I have wondered about businesses owning vehicles, is
>there a requirement there for at least one person to be in control and
>put his name on the line, or can it be just in a company name. Same with
>property. These are things I never found out because I never had any
>reason to.

Depends on the type of business, I believe.

Corporations have standing to own property, as they are defined in law
as something on the order of "artifical persons". The business
can't hold a driver's license, though - the business itself can't
drive the car - the operator has to be a human who is individually
licensed. [And how this plays for "driverless cars" is complex,
varies from place to place, and is far from settled. :-) ]

The same is true of some sorts of non-incorporated associations.

In the case of "limited liability partnerships" I don't know whether
such a partnership owns property or not.

In the case of a "DBA" (Doing Business As, a.k.a. a "fictitious
business"), no, I don't think so. The property is owned by the
individual or family or other group who is doing business under a
fictitious business name - the name is just a branding, to help deal
with the public.

>>"I haven't yet heard of a case in which the
> "Sovereign citizen" arguments have actually won out in court."
>
>That is not how it's done. Being sovereign has very little meaning, when
>you make well into six figures, being a non-taxpayer does have meaning.
>there is a specific process, and then you can't engage in certain
>contracts with the government. In fact you can't even sign a W-4 so you
>will forever be self employed or find an employer who will operate in a
>way that facilitates your wishes in the matter. I have found employers
>who simply pay cash so it is a moot point then anyway. No paper trail,
>nothing happens.

Well, this all falls into the category of what I was referring to as
"flying under the radar."

Yes, if you can arrange to work on a cash-only basis for your whole
life, and never file anything, you may escape notice. If you _do_ get
noticed, one way or another, they can still come after you for failing
to pay taxes, though. (As I understand it, the IRS doesn't get you
for "failing to file" - they get you for "failing to pay" or "filing a
false statement").

I have to say I'm sceptical about the idea of somebody being able to
earn six figures and evade detection through some sort of very
complicated process.

> In
>act, you can't be audited if you don't file.

You can't be audited (i.e. your filing can't be checked for errors,
because you didn't file), but you still _can_ be charged with failing to
pay the taxes you were due to pay. Different issue.

> When you sign your name at the
>bottom it is not s receipt, it is a contract and an acknowledgement of
>jurisdiction to a private corporation, the IRS. Though chartered by the
>government they are incorporated just like General Motors, no better no
>worse.

This same "I didn't agree to it, I'm not bound by it, hence you don't
have jurisdiction" argument is at the base of a whole lot of the
Sovereign Citizen claims... and it keeps getting shot down.

>The other thing about tax court, you won't hear about the people who
>beat them, they do not like to publicize it. That is the same with any
>court, if you make them fear public scrutiny on anything it works in
>your favor.

That same argument can be made about almost _any_ claim... "they cover
it up and hide their losses". Taken to extremes, it's at the core of
about every crank conspiracy theory floating around the Net (or
anywhere) these days... "Sure, there's nothing about this in the
mainstream press... it's being covered up... see how effective the
conspirators are!". Absence of evidence for the claim, is taken as
proof of the claim.

>Let's put it this way, if you get caught selling weed (marked money and
>all) and they find your (expensive I personally know...) grow room,
>weapons and all kind of shit, what do you expect ? Well with a lawyer he
>lost, but operating pro se he won the appeal. But that should have
>happened the first time because unbeknownst to most people, if you win
>the appeal you are still convicted.

Cite, please?

There are bunch of different meanings to "win an appeal". The appeal
court may overturn the conviction entirely and dismiss the case, in
which case the conviction "never happened". The appeal court may rule
that the conviction was made in error, and remand the case back to the
lower court to correct the error (in which case the case must be
re-tried, or dismissed by the prosecution). The appeal court may rule
that the _sentence_ was in error, and either adjust the sentence
itself or remand the case back to the trial court for adjustment - in
which case the conviction remains.

In some cases, judges go so far as to overturn a conviction with a
"declaration of factual innocence", which is not just a "We don't
think he was proven guilty" but "we are declaring that he was _not_
guilty." This tends to occur in cases where there was a serious
miscarriage of justice in the prosecution of the original case.

> Actually the same is true of a
>presidential pardon.

In that you're quite correct... there's good legal precedent that
accepting a presidental (or governer's) pardon, consistitutes an
admission of guilt on your part.

A person who has been convicted is _not_ obligated to accept a
pardon. He/she can decline the pardon, and continue to pursue an
appeal to overturn the conviction or gain a new trial... and if he/she
has the conviction reversed on appeal, and isn't re-convicted in a
second trial, then the "innocent until proven guilty" rule applies.

[jurb...@gmail.com]

>"Corporations have standing to own property, as they are defined in law as something on the order of "artifical persons". The business
can't hold a driver's license, though - the business itself can't
drive the car - the operator has to be a human who is individually
licensed."

I was thinking of something like that to avoid that "routine stop" bullshit which is a moneymaker for many small towns. In Ohio you can fight them because we have a law against using traffic laws for revenue. Typical residential is 35 MPH, if there are more than a certain number of businesses in a certain length of road then it is a 25 MPH. Densely populated areas of residential can be made 25 MPH locally. However they must be able to provide good reason. One of the things you do is to ask for the data from a traffic survey, that is one of the few forms of evidence the state will accept from a city that a lower speed limit is justified. Most of the time they just throw it out.

Source : A licensed lawyer in Ohio.

> "Sure, there's nothing about this in the
mainstream press... it's being covered up"

All kinds of things are omitted by the media. One example is when Obama didn't act against Assad for using the gas. Well he didn't use the gas, at least that time. It was reported but not in many countries. So he was not being a wimp, he knew that his political enemies would disclose that Assad had not used the gas and use it against him. He did not reveal these facts for whatever reasin, probably political expediency.

Source ; Porton Down of Britain, Seymour Hersch.

>"Well with a lawyer he
>lost, but operating pro se he won the appeal. But that should have
>happened the first time because unbeknownst to most people, if you win
>the appeal you are still convicted.

Cite, please? "

Source : Public records. Seek and ye shall find.

>"There are bunch of different meanings to "win an appeal". "

True, I believe that when a conviction is ruled to be as if it never happened it is called "vacated". That is very rare.

Source : People who win their appeal yet are put on parole when released, that is in public records somewhere, shall I find it ?

The non-taxpayer issue was proven to me personally by examining the paperwork exchanged between a personal friend of mine and the IRS. He made about $ 300,000 a year as a construction contractor, brick and cement work. The IRS always knew right where he wss and never did a thing. He never saw the inside of a tax court.

He had to turn down jobs in certain cities because to get a contractor's permit he would have to sign that he would withhold city taxes and remit them, as well as supply the information on his employees. See, in this county they made a bog mess out of it, you must pay city taxes where you live AND work, AND if you work in several different cities like a contractor does, you must apportion the city taxes to each city in which any of your work was done and which employees worked on each particular job. So ion that case the source is me and unless you want to blatantly call me a liar I suggest you find a motive for it because I am not selling the plan or whatever. I don't WANT other people to know how to do it because it might just make them adapt and make it impossible. Note that non-taxpayer status can only apply to individuals. If you do business as a sole proprietor that works, but you can't incorporate. That means your personal property is on the line should something happen and you get sued. If you are bold and careful, do things right and don't get into a situation to get sued, think of making that $ 300,000 per year and not having to give away a third of it. Still, it is not for everyone. The guy has balls as big as churchbells.

So it is not a matter of operating under the RADAR, he had to take checks and deal with insurance companies all the time. Personally, I went under the RADAR a few times. Not that i have never paid taxes, I have paid quite a bit, but I got to the poit where I could tell an emploiyer "If uyou want taxes paid them you pay them". and indeed they did because what I made showed up in some form of income somewhere, so technically they got their money. Just not from me personally. But that is a completely different issue.

Actually between all the costs of hiring someone legit and not the ACA as well, you are going to see more and more people hired under the table. I believe there are already more than meet the eye. I know/have known people who do contracting work for cash only or personal checks, who never marry their olady and let her get welfare and free medical for the kids and bring their money home tax free, making for a much better life for their families than if they did it according to Hoyle so to speak. Imagine the kids, going to private school yet have free medical and poverty status. I could have collected while I was under the table but I didn't. I probably should've, why should I be more moral than the government ? They are about the fourth worst government in the world. Second among the ones considered civilized. Fukum. But I guess it was pride that prevented me from collecting. I could have had a free phone and free food at the very least and just about no chance of ever getting caught. But I didn't opt to do it.

SO I don't take these things likely and I certainly do not recommend them. There is risk and post people can't handle it. the people who beat the government spent years, literally, studying the law. I may have mentioned they hired an ex-law professor from Harvard. That was not cheap. They made tapes of his private lectures and I was tasked with re-equalizing them for better intelligibility, so I heard some of all this. I found it very interesting but some parts boring, but that is how it goes.

[Fox's Mercantile]

On 4/6/18 5:52 PM, jurb...@gmail.com wrote:

[ snip ]

You're doing it again.
Amateur radio licensing has NOTHING to do with you opinions
on tax law.

[jurb...@gmail.com]

>"Amateur radio licensing has NOTHING to do with you opinions
on tax law. "

And your acoustically coupled MODEM is ?

Just what have YOU contributed that is on topic ?

That is even less relevant, at least I can say that if the OP is concerned with privacy against an ever invasive government it is at least related.

Your sole on topic post was "Just do it and get over yourself". That is constructive ? That is useful ?

Tell you what, YOU get over YOURSELF Snit.

There are those who better pray that I never catch cancer and am going to die soon because I might just decide to do the world a few favors.

[Fox's Mercantile]

On 4/7/18 11:32 AM, jurb...@gmail.com wrote:
> Tell you what, YOU get over YOURSELF Snit.

Bwahahaha, Et tu Brutus?

Careful there son, or people are going to think you're that
asshole troll.

> There are those who better pray that I never catch cancer
> and am going to die soon because I might just decide to do
> the world a few favors.

Oooh, vague death threats.

[peter wieck]

What a field-day for the heat
A thousand people in the street
Singing songs and carrying signs
Mostly say, hooray for our side

It's s time we stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down

Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
Step out of line, the men come and take you away

Rest assured. The "Man" knows about you, what you eat, your browsing habits, pretty much everything there is to know about your sex life and much more.

The single question you must ask is how much you will let that affect your life as it *WILL NOT CHANGE*. Frankly, I don't give a damn as I don't have one single thing going on in my life such that the "Man" knowing would make one scintilla of a difference.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[jurb...@gmail.com]

>"Frankly, I don't give a damn as I don't have one single thing going on in my life such that the "Man" knowing would make one scintilla of a difference. "

Not enough people would do it but I have a plan. Want privacy ? Ironic as it may sound, as a friend of a friend said when he was selling a car : "Motherfucker be lookin' for thaings motherfucker be findin' thaings". I shit you not.

So they want to snoop ? Let them, you know what a sigline is right ? Just set up a macro like that with words similar to :

"bomb, pentagon, drudge, Alex Jones, Randy Weaver, 911, anthrax, dirty bomb, suitcase, Constitution, freedom, original 13th amendment, bankers, admiralty jurisdiction, 50 round magazine, full auto, grenade, real anarchists cookbook, acid, pizza, lolita, virgins, kibbutz, mosque basement, OKC, Waco, 50 caliber, plastique, detonator, speed sensor, car bomb, ebola, militia, unorganized, amendment, jurisdiction, tyrant black robe, meek as sheep, writ, commerce, lien, common law, government default, start freedom project, bannister wrong, Porton Down, brotherhood, Arayan, the joint, on the slide, NATO round..." and so forth. Mixem up. Everybody do it.

If you're White throw in Farakkan, Islam and a few others. If you're Black throw in Pierce, Strom, Zimmerman and a few others.

And you need combinations of keywords to raise the red flag, not just one word. You have to put them together. And of course edit it every once in a while. One of two things happens, they act or not, if not they are likely to know what you're doing with that but can't do a damn thing about it. Through signature lines use what appear to be code words, just use them in similar context more than once. Spin a nice yarn about a plot to blow up something.

If you succeed they will contact you and try to goad you into doing something they think you would be willing to do. That is when you turn the tables on them. Have a recorder at all times. Evne tap your own cellphone. Assemble a ton of evidence and then takeit to the media.

MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !

Takes balls, but if you want to get anywhere...

[Fox's Mercantile]

On 4/7/18 6:25 PM, jurb...@gmail.com wrote:
> Not enough people would do it but I have a plan.

And this has even LESS to with Amateur radio than the
other rambling shit you've posted.

[jurb...@gmail.com]

>"And this has even LESS to with Amateur radio than the
other rambling shit you've posted. "

Nope, privacy issue.

About that acoustically coupled MODEM again ? How about the model and specs. Do you have a schematic ?

[bitrex]

On 04/07/2018 01:46 PM, peter wieck wrote:
> What a field-day for the heat
> A thousand people in the street
> Singing songs and carrying signs
> Mostly say, hooray for our side
>
> It's s time we stop, hey, what's that sound
> Everybody look what's going down
>
> Paranoia strikes deep
> Into your life it will creep
> It starts when you're always afraid
> Step out of line, the men come and take you away
>
> Rest assured. The "Man" knows about you, what you eat, your browsing habits, pretty much everything there is to know about your sex life and much more.

Ha ha ha, I bet he's jealous on the last point too

[Fox's Mercantile]

On 4/7/18 10:47 PM, jurb...@gmail.com wrote:

[ more nonsense deleted ]

You know you're wrong, or you wouldn't be playing "Whataboutism?"

[peterw...@gmail.com]

At this point as a white male of some moderate means, I am able to 'get' anywhere I choose to go. Becoming a paranoic idiot towards the vague goal of being 'left alone' is hardly worth the risk of spending some very ugly time being poked, prodded and questioned. Nor, in the real world, does it make any difference - other than upsetting the wife/kids/grandkids and pets. And, of course, such behavior would remove much of those means.

In this household, we have exactly that amount of privacy as we wish. Full Stop.

However, your plan has much merit - in executing it, you will divert 'the man' thereby, and so 'the man' will spend less time looking at the rest of us.

[jurb...@gmail.com]

>"You know you're wrong, or you wouldn't be playing "Whataboutism?" "

Fuck you troll. Shout all you want, you are not worth even one more keystroke. I got a scroll button.

[jurb...@gmail.com]

>"However, your plan has much merit - in executing it, you will divert 'the man' thereby, and so 'the man' will spend less time looking at the rest of us. "

Enjoy - for now. Eventually they will get to everyone. This attitude of "Well if you have nothing to hide..." is NOT the idea. the idea is privacy. How about I had a camera in your bedroom and made note of any mistakes in your "technique" ? Any fetishes, kink, anything like that ? How about we all read letters between you and Mom about her peculiar medical condition, and of course we all need to know all the diseases you might have. The camera in your cable box will tell us which shows you actually watch and which ones you sleep to or just leave on while you do something else. And when you get up to go take a piss or make a sandwich generally so we know not to put the commercials on at that time. How about instead of the black box in your car that records the last few minutes of your moves, every move you make is watched and the cops do not have to stop you, the computer tells whether you were speeding and you must pay the ticket or lose your license, and we know you have the money and we don't care what it was for, even food for your kids.

You see, I am not a nut, but the fact is that if you give these fucks a femtometer they will take a parsec. The old boiling frog concept. I remember when they actually needed search warrants. It is none of their business what is in my pockets, my car or my home. If they have a reasonable suspicion go to a judge and get a warrant. But if you say that they will tear up your shit and leave you without a home of car, or whatever and you can't do a god damn thing about it.

This is not how we are supposed to live. And it does not protect us at all. Every time the government catches a would be terrorist it is either entrapment, or a stupid person with a proclivity they exploited, or one of their schills. Look it up. Every real attack on this country has succeeded. Look it up.

It is not a matter of security for us, it is a matter of security for them, and I have so much proof it would take you days to go through all of it. I could give you about 50 search strings and by the time you get through the CREDIBLE links they produce, every notion you ever had about the US will be shattered, just as mine were a long time ago. I know who and what these motherfuckers are and we are like a god damn crop to them to be harvested.

You want proof ? And really, don't ask if you are just going to say "Mmm hmmm" and not get on board with trying to change this place and its course from certain distopia. And this is not completely off topic because privacy is obviously one of the OP's concerns.

I like kinky sex. I don't really give a shit who knows it. Within reason of course, is some real weirdness out there. But I couldn't care less who knows. I am secure in whatever. Any job, if they find out I would say "So what ?". I can do that because I don't brown nose or play politics or any of that shit. Anyone I work for who cares, I will quit and then just like the last couple of employers, they can hire me back at more money. Fire me ? Who is your closest competitor, in case you have a question.

I can do that, but not everyone can. not only might they work for religious or judgmental idiots, or a church, or who knows, they might have their job partly because of politics. They might also have responsibilities like kids, and be in debt up to their ears. They don't enjoy the type of autonomy I did, and still do to some extent. What of them ? If they and their olady like to play with handcuffs sometimes it should cost them their well being ? It can.

Well we have to think about others. They want to be a queer, as long as they don't bother me I must support their right to do so no matter how repugnant it is to me. (and it is but it is their right) By the same token, they must support my right to burn a nice fat joint once in a while.

If we don't stand together we will surely fall apart.

[jurb...@gmail.com]

its course FOR certain distopia.... obviously

But I say it for some because, well you have seen why.

[Fox's Mercantile]

On 4/8/18 7:10 AM, jurb...@gmail.com wrote:
>> "You know you're wrong, or you wouldn't be playing "Whataboutism?""
>
> Fuck you troll. Shout all you want, you are not worth even one more keystroke. I got a scroll button.
>

Bwahahaha
More proof you're an idiot.
Take your Zoloft, sit down and shut the fuck up.

[Terry Schwartz]

Paranoia will destroy ya......

[Fox's Mercantile]

On 4/8/18 9:30 AM, Terry Schwartz wrote:
> Paranoia will destroy ya......
>

Life is tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid.

[peter wieck]

Had you a camera in our bedroom, surely you would learn something - as your present state is clear and incontrovertible evidence that you live a poor and unhappy life, and have much to learn about how happiness might be achieved.

Were you to try and sell me something via electronic means, be it TV or "placement" on web-pages and the like, you would fail as not only would you be lost in the noise, but that is not how we make purchasing choices.

Paranoia does spring from a level of ignorance, for the most part - as do conspiracy theories. However, as one learns a bit about life, the value of either as closely held beliefs becomes clear - nil. So, those that continue following that path are no longer ignorant. They are merely stupid. And, sadly, that cannot be fixed.