OT what is it?

[gghe...@gmail.com]

Hi all, I found this thing.. see pictures

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/sxd1cq8qbdyali4/AAA6O9NqKQPvbX4QLzNAK-Vaa?dl=0
In the back of a drawer at my house. The previous owner was a pack rat,
who also worked for the phone company.
It looks like some high voltage flashlight.
What sort of voltage do I apply to the leads?

Thanks,
George H.

[Boris Mohar]

It could be automotive timing light.
--
Boris

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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[gghe...@gmail.com]

On Monday, October 19, 2015 at 10:03:35 AM UTC-4, Boris Mohar wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Oct 2015 06:51:59 -0700 (PDT), gghe...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >Hi all, I found this thing.. see pictures
> >
> >https://www.dropbox.com/sh/sxd1cq8qbdyali4/AAA6O9NqKQPvbX4QLzNAK-Vaa?dl=0
> >In the back of a drawer at my house. The previous owner was a pack rat,
> >who also worked for the phone company.
> >It looks like some high voltage flashlight.
> >What sort of voltage do I apply to the leads?
> >
> >Thanks,
> >George H.
>
> It could be automotive timing light.
> --
> Boris

Ahh OK, That's a good guess.

Thanks,
George H.

[pf...@aol.com]

As per Boris - yes, it could be a timing light - but definitely a stop-action device of some sort. I expect that there were other parts associated with it - strobe-type timing lights have an induction trigger device, usually, as one example. + & -attached to the battery, and the inductor clamped to #1 cylinder spark-plug wire.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[Tom Miller]

<pf...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:0a9cc775-024d-49fe...@googlegroups.com...

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

But there is no trigger electrode. It might be Neon. Can you hit it with
some high voltage, maybe from a lawn mower spark plug? See what the
discharge spectrum looks like.

[gghe...@gmail.com]

Hmm OK, I could try that.

I'm a little leery of mixing electronics with my lawn mower.
Way back when, a motor wouldn't start, and I convinced myself
it was a spark problem. I couldn't see a spark
after all. I wanted to see how much voltage I was getting so
I hooked up my DMM (though a series resistor), Pulled the
cord to turn over the engine, and promptly blew up my DMM. :^(

George H.

[Jon Elson]

pf...@aol.com wrote:


> As per Boris - yes, it could be a timing light - but definitely a
> stop-action device of some sort. I expect that there were other parts
> associated with it - strobe-type timing lights have an induction trigger
> device, usually, as one example. + & -attached to the battery, and the
> inductor clamped to #1 cylinder spark-plug wire.

Really, really, cheap timing lights, like from the J. C. Whitney of old,
were just two pieces of spark plug wire with a coiled neon tube in the
middle. The spark plug and the coil were the current limiter. They were
very dim, and you could get chopped up by the fan trying to get them close
enough to the timing marks to see anything.

Jon

[pf...@aol.com]

On Monday, October 19, 2015 at 2:56:59 PM UTC-4, Jon Elson wrote:

> Really, really, cheap timing lights, like from the J. C. Whitney of old,
> were just two pieces of spark plug wire with a coiled neon tube in the
> middle. The spark plug and the coil were the current limiter. They were
> very dim, and you could get chopped up by the fan trying to get them close
> enough to the timing marks to see anything.

That too. But a trigger electrode could also be down in the base somewhere.

Back when I drove carbureted VWs, I used a christmas tree light for a static timer. Seemed to work fine. I also had a neon timer such as you describe - and it had that big fat lens as in the pictures. The inductive lights did not. Might be as simple as a neon strobe head...

[gghe...@gmail.com]

Tom, Sorry I chickened out and didn't put it across any
of my working motors. (The last thing I want is to
blow out the spark drive... I'm not really sure, what I'm saying.
Is it ok to put a dead short across my briggs and stratton?

George H.

[Tom Miller]

<gghe...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:569db2d6-bbd5-44e8...@googlegroups.com...

Doesn't the spark plug do just that when it fires?

What damages magneto ignition systems is open circuit, wire off plug events.
Then the coil arcs internally.

Don't you have any kind of transformer that could make a HV spark with say a
9 volt battery? A filament transformer maybe?

[gghe...@gmail.com]

Yeah, I didn't say my fear was rational.
I had a bunch of old engines, I think most were "re-cycled" this
past summer.
Hmm, OK I'll hook it up to my old tractor.
(Ferguson to-20) If I blow out the coil it's easy to
put in a new one.

>
> What damages magneto ignition systems is open circuit, wire off plug events.
> Then the coil arcs internally.

>
> Don't you have any kind of transformer that could make a HV spark with say a
> 9 volt battery? A filament transformer maybe?

9V battery and transformer? (how does that work?)

I've got a 120-24 (6A) tranny, how much voltage would you guess I'll need?
I could run that backwards from a Variac.

George H.

[Tom Miller]

<gghe...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:aa224646-0b5f-4e79...@googlegroups.com...

Just take clip leads to the highest voltage winding (primary?) to the tube.
Then use the battery to "flash" the lowest voltage winding. Think about how
the points work in an ignition circuit.

No, do not use a variac.

All you want is to get a discharge through the tube and see what color is
produced. Red says it might be Neon, blueish white may be Xenon, other will
be who knows.

[gghe...@gmail.com]

Thanks Tom, I got nothing with my big transformer.
(I don't have enough current to get any significant voltage across the low voltage windings. It could also be that the tube is dead.
I'll try with my tractor at home tonight.

George H.

[Tom Miller]

<gghe...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1fd8c44b-87be-47ae...@googlegroups.com...

Just be careful. Getting hit with the HV can really hurt.

[Cursitor Doom]

Be a lot simpler to just to use one half of the tranny and use the back
EMF from interrupting the circuit instead. Breaking the current through
the longest winding should give enough of a spike to see if the lamp
flashes.

[Cursitor Doom]

On Mon, 19 Oct 2015 14:00:36 -0700, pf...@aol.com wrote:

> Might be as simple as a neon strobe head...

Yes, but if it's a neon type you might as well bin it; they're so weak as
to be virtually useless. I don't think this one is though, from what I
can make out in the pictures.

[Ian Field]

<gghe...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:aa224646-0b5f-4e79...@googlegroups.com...

When you touch the battery across the low voltage winding, it builds up
lines of magnetic flux around the core - when you break the current, the
lines of flux collapse onto the core and induce a high voltage spike in the
big winding.

Most 9V batteries are very low energy density and won't keep up the current
through a low voltage winding - and doing that wouldn't serve any useful
purpose anyway.

Hook one wire of the low voltage winding to one battery terminal, then hook
a loose length of wire to to the other end of the winding and just flick it
on the other battery terminal.

You might get a small back emf spark as you break the primary current, but
you should be able to rig a gap for a half-decent spark from the big
winding.

[Ian Field]

<gghe...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1fd8c44b-87be-47ae...@googlegroups.com...

If you're trying it with a 9V radio battery - they can't shift much current.

One of those 6V 996 lantern batteries with the springs on top would stand
more chance.

[Cursitor Doom]

The coil from a relay might be a better idea than a tranny. Some of those
have a great many windings of fine gauge wire which would put less of a
load on a 9v battery. I've got some here showing over 400 ohms resistance.

[Ian Field]

"Cursitor Doom" <cu...@notformail.com> wrote in message
news:n06aoo$8o2$1...@dont-email.me...

Back emf is good - but a step up ratio is *MUCH* better.

[gghe...@gmail.com]

I didn't have time to play with it this evening.
(my night to take my daughter to dance,
and raining when I got home.
Tomorrow, as long as the sun doesn't set too soon. :^)

HV, not to worry, I've been bitten several times,
and have a healthy respect.

George H.

[Bob Engelhardt]

As others have said, it's an old, primitive, cheap timing light:
http://amccars.net/cgi/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1313093243

[Phil Hobbs]

Looks like a fairly powerful flashlamp inside--it might be the business
end of one of those old photo flash units that ran off a 300V dry cell


Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

[Tom Miller]

"Phil Hobbs" <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote in message
news:qMqdnSIxRKFQgbrL...@supernews.com...

> On 10/19/2015 09:51 AM, gghe...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Hi all, I found this thing.. see pictures
>>
>> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/sxd1cq8qbdyali4/AAA6O9NqKQPvbX4QLzNAK-Vaa?dl=0
>> In the back of a drawer at my house. The previous owner was a pack rat,
>> who also worked for the phone company.
>> It looks like some high voltage flashlight.
>> What sort of voltage do I apply to the leads?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> George H.
>>
>
> Looks like a fairly powerful flashlamp inside--it might be the business
> end of one of those old photo flash units that ran off a 300V dry cell
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Phil Hobbs
>
> --

No, they just had a Neon tube. You had to enhance the timing mark on the
balancer with white chalk. It really would not work outside in sunlight.
They were the cheapest timing light one could buy then. Now they use Xenon
flash tubes and inverters/storage caps.

I would venture a guess that unit was made in the 60's or earlier.

[Phil Hobbs]

Why go to the trouble of making that huge helical tube then?

[Tom Miller]

"Phil Hobbs" <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote in message

news:1bKdnbx8Y66qsbrL...@supernews.com...

To get as much light as possible from a hand held tool. And Neon tubes are
cheap. Remember, you had to hold the strobe close to the harmonic balancer
while turning the distributor housing to set the timing. It got much easier
when the consumer grade xenon units came out. Even then, they cost $100+ in
the 60-70's. The neon units were $30-40.

[Ian Field]

"Tom Miller" <tmille...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:n07c25$gme$1...@dont-email.me...

Years ago I had a motorcycle with 6V electrics - I couldn't buy a 6V xenon
unit at any price.

The problem was solved by building my own in the housing of an old
flashlight.

Haven't seen it for a while, but its highly unlikely I would've thrown it
out - it must be under the clutter in the garage somewhere.

Whether building another would be less hassle than finding the old one is a
whole 'nother question!

AFAIK: the latest development in more efficient white LEDs, is ditching blue
LEDs with yellow phosphor in favour of UV LEDs with white phosphor.

These are already finding their way into phone-camera flash rings, and the
white phosphor may have short enough persistence to use in a strobe.

[gghe...@gmail.com]

OK I hooked this up to the spark of my tractor last night.
The nice cherry glow of Neon was visible.

Thanks everyone for the suggestions, comments and links.

So here's a question, My daughter likes the elements,
we have a small collection. Adding Neon would be nice,
but we'd have to make a little circuit to power the tube.

1.) How much voltage do I need to start it? (10kV?)
2.) could I run it CW or would a pulsed thing be better/ easier.
3.) How to make the HV? My first thought was a cockroft-walton chain.
Could I choose the caps and frequency such as to have a crude current control.

(I like the Cockroft chain because it's not all that hard to understand.)

Any thoughts?

George H.

[Ian Field]

<gghe...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:fc686851-ae1f-4f2d...@googlegroups.com...

You could probably get away with the chopper transformer out of the SMPSU in
a ser top box like a DVB-T type thing.

Using the transformer back to front, you can get pretty decent HT with a
simple blocking oscillator on what used to be the secondary.

Or you could go for a capacitor discharge unit. Of course you need another
chopper transformer to make the inverter. About 250 - 350V is good enough
for the intermediate voltage, you can make a simple relaxation oscillator
with 2 or more series neon bulbs and a capacitor to fire the SCR.

Years ago I made a pocket disco strobe along those lines, it used the xenon
tube from an old camera and run off 4x AA Ni-Cd cells.