Inverter Repair... I could use some pointers from the experts.
Michael Kennedy
Potrans model# DA00812600). It had a burnt 22 pF 3kv ceramic capacitor. It
is the cap just before wher the ccfl lamp hooks up. I replaced this cap with
the closest value I could find at the local surplus dealer, a 24pF 1kv cap.
I also replaced the .5a fuse with a regular fast blow and tried it out. It
worked for a short while. I powered it off and back on and it blew the .5a
fuse. I don't know if the original was a slow blow or not, but I can't get
anything out the side that had the burnt cap.
I can't find any shorts on the board and don't really know where to go from
here.. Any poiters before I replace every component on the board?
Here are some pictures.. I know the fuse i put on there looks really bad but
I didn't have a small resistor sized fuse to go on there.
Before
http://mikescomputers.homeip.net/LCD/DSC00357.JPG
http://mikescomputers.homeip.net/LCD/DSC00358.JPG
After
http://mikescomputers.homeip.net/LCD/DSC00365.JPG
Whole board
http://mikescomputers.homeip.net/LCD/DSC00361.JPG
Dave D
"Michael Kennedy" <Mike...@remthis.comcast.net> wrote in message
news:-e2dneGm4bm-FtjZ...@comcast.com...
>I have a NEC Multisync LCD 1525M Monitor with a bad inverter (built by
>Potrans model# DA00812600). It had a burnt 22 pF 3kv ceramic capacitor. It
>is the cap just before wher the ccfl lamp hooks up. I replaced this cap
>with the closest value I could find at the local surplus dealer, a 24pF 1kv
>cap. I also replaced the .5a fuse with a regular fast blow and tried it
>out. It worked for a short while. I powered it off and back on and it blew
>the .5a fuse. I don't know if the original was a slow blow or not, but I
>can't get anything out the side that had the burnt cap.
>
This is a bit vague to me. Are you saying there are two CCFL tubes and the
transformer has a seperate secondary and coupling cap for each lamp, and
that one lamp worked for a while? If only one lamp lights that should tell
you the inverter is working but there is a problem with either the relevent
secondary winding (check the DC resistance matches the other) the continuity
of the PCB (it looks very badly burnt) or the lamp itself. If the two lamps
share a secondary winding then that narrows it down even further. Connect
the other lamp to the 'working' output and see if it lights up.
The PCB is a mess, and carbonised PCB will have a significant amount of
conductivity to a HV high impedance source. Consider cutting away all the
offending bits of the PCB and if necessary soldering the capacitor straight
to the transformer leg. It won't look pretty bit it's better than the
ramifications of presenting HT across burned PCB! It's possible the heat
generated during the burning has damaged the transformer.
> I can't find any shorts on the board and don't really know where to go
> from here.. Any poiters before I replace every component on the board?
>
It's proably not a short on the primary side, more likely HV leakage on the
secondary side. The secondary of the inverter will knock out approaching
IIRC around 90V or so into the right load, and several thousand volts off
load. A relatively high resistance leakage on the secondary could easily
draw enough extra supply current draw to pop the 500mA fuse.
> Here are some pictures.. I know the fuse i put on there looks really bad
> but I didn't have a small resistor sized fuse to go on there.
Don't worry about that. Get it working then worry about aesthetics.
Dave
Michael Kennedy
1347ohms on the bad side and 1341 ohms on the good side.. So it doesn't
look like I have a short of any kind that I can see. Would this be a good
assumption..
Sorry for posting so much but I really want to learn about fixing
electronics. This inverter seems like a simple enough project. I just need
some help.
I have an old 200khz oscillosocope that needs calibrating but it works.
Would this be usefull at all for working on this? I wouldn't immagine it
being usefull at all without some sort of wave generator.
- Mike
Dave
news:-e2dneGm4bm-FtjZ...@comcast.com...
guessing). The ccfl's are probably 4 watt bulbs, 2 of them, total draw 8
watts, inverter efficiency is around 75% which means the whole thing is
drawing 10 watts when running correctly. With a 12 volt supply and you get
just under an amp draw.
If you have a scope, see what kind of a trace you get on either side of C9.
If the transformer is open on the secondary, you'll get a clean 1/2 wave on
either side of C9. If it's working, you'll get the 1/2 wave but it will be
misshapen and may have some harmonics on it. The voltage on C9 side is low
since you are on the primary. The inverter will usually work for about 2 -
4 seconds with the bulbs unplugged. The square chip in the center is the
controller and will shut the inverter down if it doesn't sense the bulbs
light up. Here's a file that should give you a close approximation of your
inverter: go to http://www.anachip.com/eng/supports/tech/appnote.php and
take a look at ANP005
The other thing you can do is to check continuity on the transformer. The
primary windings and the feedback winding are very low but the secondary
winding should be 100 to 400 ohms if I recall correctly.
That charred board may end up being your biggest liability since the voltage
on that side of things normally runs around 600vac @ 60Khz or so. It might
just be easier to find a cheap monitor with a cracked LCD on eBay and take
the boards out of it.
Dave
Michael Kennedy
> This is a bit vague to me. Are you saying there are two CCFL tubes and the
> transformer has a seperate secondary and coupling cap for each lamp, and
> that one lamp worked for a while?
Let me try to clear up the vagueness.. It has 2 transformers one on each end
of the pcb and each has a coupling cap. It also has 2 500ma fuses. The fuse
which goes to the non working side keeps blowing. I had both lamps powered
up and working for a short while, but they were a bit dim.(may be ccfl
tubes) Then I shut it off and powered it back on and the fuse blew on the
"bad" side. I havn't been able to get the "bad" side to light again. It just
blows the fuse imedately. I've ohmed from the fuse to the transformer's
output and it is within 6 ohms of the working side.
>If only one lamp lights that should tell you the inverter is working but
>there is a problem with either the relevent secondary winding (check the DC
>resistance matches the other) the continuity of the PCB (it looks very
>badly burnt) or the lamp itself. If the two lamps share a secondary winding
>then that narrows it down even further. Connect the other lamp to the
>'working' output and see if it lights up.
I've cut away all the burnt PCB and soldered the cap directly to the lamp
socket. I tried that and it still is blowing fuses so I guess thats not it.
The transformer might be the problem. It has a resistance of 668 ohms vs 931
ohms on the good one. I'm not sure which is the primary and secondary but
I'm guessing the primary is the one which ohms close to zero. Check my
picture to make sure I'm ohming them in the correct place.
http://mikescomputers.homeip.net/DSC00367.JPG
- Mike
Dave D
> I've tried ohming from the fuse to just before the bad capacitor and it
> ohms 1347ohms on the bad side and 1341 ohms on the good side.. So it
> doesn't look like I have a short of any kind that I can see. Would this be
> a good assumption..
>
The secondary of the transformer should be isolated from the primary side
and therefore the fuse, so such measurements are irrelevent. Try checking
the switching transistors for shorts, as the fuse is blowing I'd start
there. I think you'll also find the transformer has a shorted winding. Take
both transformers out of circuit and measure the windings, they should have
very similar readings between pins. If not, you likely have a bad one.
> Sorry for posting so much but I really want to learn about fixing
> electronics. This inverter seems like a simple enough project. I just need
> some help.
>
> I have an old 200khz oscillosocope that needs calibrating but it works.
> Would this be usefull at all for working on this?
Yes, it will tell you if there is drive to the transformer and therefore
confirm whether or not the primary side of the circuit is working.
>I wouldn't immagine it being usefull at all without some sort of wave
>generator.
>
The inverter is an oscillator and generates its own waveform to drive the
transformer, you don't need a 'wave generator'.
Dave
Michael Kennedy
ZD2 on the opposite side of the board ohms 343 foward and over 700 reverse.
I guess that is why I'm blowing fuses. Now to get a chart on how to read
zener diodes. :)
- Mike
"Dave" <a...@b.com> wrote in message news:vdadnckf7rC...@rcn.net...
Michael Kennedy
sense.. It is orange, red, black and green.. so that makes it a 1N320E ?? I
can't find any diodes with that part number.
Maybe I'm just color blind.. Can someone tell me if I got the colors right?
http://mikescomputer.homeip.net/LCD/DSC00382.JPG
Color Codes I found
http://www.oldradios.co.nz/data/index5.htm
- Mike
Michael Kennedy
are both good, but it is late and I'll give it a more careful check
tomorrow.
- Mike
"Michael Kennedy" <Mike...@remthis.comcast.net> wrote in message
news:MLidnUd1gr0...@comcast.com...
Michael Kennedy
light lights for a split second and then blows the fuse.. Must be a short
somewhere..
Could it be that I used a 24pF 1kv capacitor on the output instead of a 22pF
3kv?
- Mike
"Michael Kennedy" <Mike...@remthis.comcast.net> wrote in message
news:nu2dnT8jjJR...@comcast.com...
Michael Kennedy
something. I cut the lead off shorter and I no longer have a short and have
stopped blowing fuses... Yey! :)
I think I may have the wrong value zener. The inverter comes on for a split
second and turns back off. Both Lamps are working now... well at least they
are comming on for a split second..
What now? This is the zener I replaced with a 1N5237b738 (supposedly a 8.2v
zener)
http://mikescomputers.homeip.net/LCD/zd2.jpg
Someone told me that this was a 8v2 zener in another post titled SMT Diode
Identification
- Mike
"Michael Kennedy" <Mike...@remthis.comcast.net> wrote in message
news:S4KdnfL_Pol...@comcast.com...
Dave
> Okay.. I found where I had a short.. My output cap was shorting to
> something. I cut the lead off shorter and I no longer have a short and
> have stopped blowing fuses... Yey! :)
>
> I think I may have the wrong value zener. The inverter comes on for a
> split second and turns back off. Both Lamps are working now... well at
> least they are comming on for a split second..
>
> What now? This is the zener I replaced with a 1N5237b738 (supposedly a
> 8.2v zener)
> http://mikescomputers.homeip.net/LCD/zd2.jpg
> Someone told me that this was a 8v2 zener in another post titled SMT Diode
> Identification
>
> - Mike
good side and start comparing with the bad side? Also some scope traces on
the primary of the transformer would help. That should help you figure out
if the replacement zener is correct.
Another place to start is with the feedback circuit. Make sure the proper
voltage is coming back to the controller chip. If you trace the low side of
the ccfl plug (not the line with the output cap) you'll see that the low
side hits a few small diodes, resistors and caps. Eventually it will end up
at one pin of the controller chip. That line has to have a certain voltage
on it to tell the controller chip to stay on. If the voltage back to that
line is not right the controller shuts the inverter down after a second or
two.
Dave
Michael Kennedy
that it is supposed to have.
The 24pF is only rated for 1kv also..
My local surplus dealer didn't have any high voltage 22pF caps.. I'm
guessing I'm going to have to order that part.
- Mike
Michael Kennedy
lsmartino
an
inverter very similar to yours... even the failure mode was the same...
the
capacitor going to the CFL charred by itself and shorted. While it was
shorted, the inverter would power on for half second, and then turn off
by
itself.
Regarding your Diode question, maybe you will find this page
interesting:
http://www.marsport.demon.co.uk/smd/sod80.htm
Towards the end of this page you will find a color chart for SMT
diodes. If
my monitor is rendering correctly the colors of the picture you posted,
your
diode has the following ring bands RED, BLACK, GREEN. Using the table
provided, that would be a RLZ12B zener diode manufactured by Rohm.
Here you have the datasheet for all Rohm diodes and their voltages:
http://www.rohm.com/products/databook/di/pdf/rlz12b.pdf
As you can see, you really need a 12V zener diode, not an 8.2V one.
I hope all this info helps you.
Good luck!
Michael Kennedy
I found out how the diode got blown.. If you power the inverter on without a
lamp it blows the diode.
I tested the good diode and you're right it was a 12v zener diode.
The odd thing is I had this working and put the monitor back togeather. As
soon as I got it back togeather it stopped working and started powering on
for only a second again.. err..
I really think this could be related to my improper output capicitor that I
used.. No one has commented on that. It had a 22pF cap and I replaced it
with a 24pF and I also tried a 20pF.
- Mike
"lsmartino" <luisma...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1145812886.0...@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
lsmartino
have tolerances as high as 20%... so a cap marked as 22pf could have a
capacitance as high as 26.4pf or as low as 15.6pf... and it´s value
would be within tolerance. The circuit designer surely took that into
account when the circuit was designed.
What worries me is the 1kv rating of the substitute cap... try to get
one of 2kv at least, and repeat the tests.
Probably the 1kv cap is shorting under load.
Michael Kennedy
one of 2kv at least, and repeat the tests.
Probably the 1kv cap is shorting under load.
hmm.. Cap shorting.. Well I'm not blowing fuses anymore but that does sound
quite possible. I guess I'm going to have to order one since skycraft
doesn't have any in stock.
- Mike
Luis Martino Ameijeiras
"Michael Kennedy" <Mike...@remthis.comcast.net> escribió en el mensaje
news:ha-dnZaCjdr...@comcast.com...
> Okay.. I found where I had a short.. My output cap was shorting to
> something. I cut the lead off shorter and I no longer have a short and
> have stopped blowing fuses... Yey! :)
>
> I think I may have the wrong value zener. The inverter comes on for a
> split second and turns back off. Both Lamps are working now... well at
> least they are comming on for a split second..
>
> What now? This is the zener I replaced with a 1N5237b738 (supposedly a
> 8.2v zener)
> http://mikescomputers.homeip.net/LCD/zd2.jpg
> Someone told me that this was a 8v2 zener in another post titled SMT Diode
> Identification
>
> - Mike
Check that your replacement capacitor is not shorted again. I repaired an
inverter very similar to yours... even the failure mode was the same... the
capacitor going to the CFL charred by itself and shorted. While it was
shorted, the inverter would power on for half second, and then turn off by
itself.
Regarding your Diode question, maybe you will find this page interesting:
http://www.marsport.demon.co.uk/smd/sod80.htm
Towards the end of this page you will find a color chart for SMT diodes. If
my monitor is rendering correctly the colors of the picture you posted, your
diode has the following ring bands RED, BLACK, GREEN. Using the table
provided, that would be a RLZ12B zener diode manufactured by Rohm.
Here you have the datasheet for all Rohm diodes and their voltages:
http://www.rohm.com/products/databook/di/pdf/rlz12b.pdf
As you can see, you really need a 12V zener diode.
Michael Kennedy
just not the one we thought..
Anyway I was at the surplus store today and bought 2 18pF 3kv caps and
replaced both output caps on the inverter board. I replaced the one on the
"bad" side of the board first to no avail.. I then thought why not replace
the one on the "good" side and I did and it turned on..
My only regret is ordering the 22pF caps from mouser that I no longer need..
:) oh well you live you learn.. I'll classify this as an education
expense.. It doesn't come anywhere what my tuition for school is and is way
more fun..
I probably couldn't have fixed this without the help of Dave, lsmartino, and
Afra Dailey.. Thanks everybody..
Just hopefully I havn't spoken too soon.. :-)
- Mike
"Michael Kennedy" <Mike...@remthis.comcast.net> wrote in message
news:LqWdnXjaVLI...@comcast.com...
lsmartino
You will see that the repair will hold over time.
Good luck!