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OT -- Tankless water heaters
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The Real Bev
Sep 28, 2018, 3:15:41 PM9/28/18
to
I ask here because the home repair group is worthless and you guys are
smart.
Anybody see a downside to a natural-gas tankless water heater? We don't
need a huge quantity of hot water at any one time and the tankless ones
seem cheaper than the normal ones which eventually solidify with SoCal
hard-water crap.
--
Cheers, Bev
"Tell someone you love them today, because life is short.
But scream it at them in Klingon, because life is also
terrifying and confusing." -- D. Moore
smart.
Anybody see a downside to a natural-gas tankless water heater? We don't
need a huge quantity of hot water at any one time and the tankless ones
seem cheaper than the normal ones which eventually solidify with SoCal
hard-water crap.
--
Cheers, Bev
"Tell someone you love them today, because life is short.
But scream it at them in Klingon, because life is also
terrifying and confusing." -- D. Moore
dansabr...@yahoo.com
Sep 28, 2018, 3:38:16 PM9/28/18
to
While I don't have gas, I can relate my own experience with tankless systems (oil in this case).
I recently (3 years ago) replaced an old (26 year) furnace that was tankless for hot water. I now have a more efficient system with a separate hot water tank. The tank looks like a heating zone to the furnace. The difference here is that the furnace now holds about 1 gallon of water in it. The old one had 2.5 or more. Since the heat exchanger resides on the top of the furnace, the exhaust passes it as well. This means that when not running, the heat continues to go up the chimney. This in turn makes each call for water to require to heat up the internal water as well as what is used.
Now, the hot water is in a large tank (like a thermos bottle) that doesnot lose heat (at least not much). With no change in use (I heat with wood so this is only used for hot water), I have reduced my oil consumption by 80%.
The furnace may run periodically to keep the water hot, but only when it is called for.
The oil company hates me now. Even with heating with wood, I would fill the tank multiple times per year. In the last 3 years, I have used less than 300 gal of oil per year down from over 1200-1600. At this rate, the new furnace will be paid from savings by the end of next year, a 4.5 year payback.
I would recommend using a separate hot water tank for the most savings.
Dan
I recently (3 years ago) replaced an old (26 year) furnace that was tankless for hot water. I now have a more efficient system with a separate hot water tank. The tank looks like a heating zone to the furnace. The difference here is that the furnace now holds about 1 gallon of water in it. The old one had 2.5 or more. Since the heat exchanger resides on the top of the furnace, the exhaust passes it as well. This means that when not running, the heat continues to go up the chimney. This in turn makes each call for water to require to heat up the internal water as well as what is used.
Now, the hot water is in a large tank (like a thermos bottle) that doesnot lose heat (at least not much). With no change in use (I heat with wood so this is only used for hot water), I have reduced my oil consumption by 80%.
The furnace may run periodically to keep the water hot, but only when it is called for.
The oil company hates me now. Even with heating with wood, I would fill the tank multiple times per year. In the last 3 years, I have used less than 300 gal of oil per year down from over 1200-1600. At this rate, the new furnace will be paid from savings by the end of next year, a 4.5 year payback.
I would recommend using a separate hot water tank for the most savings.
Dan
peterw...@gmail.com
Sep 28, 2018, 4:11:16 PM9/28/18
to
On Friday, September 28, 2018 at 3:15:41 PM UTC-4, The Real Bev wrote:
> Anybody see a downside to a natural-gas tankless water heater? We don't
> need a huge quantity of hot water at any one time and the tankless ones
> seem cheaper than the normal ones which eventually solidify with SoCal
> hard-water crap.
I will give you two perspectives:
> Anybody see a downside to a natural-gas tankless water heater? We don't
> need a huge quantity of hot water at any one time and the tankless ones
> seem cheaper than the normal ones which eventually solidify with SoCal
> hard-water crap.
a) At our summer house, we have a Bosch instant-hot LP-fired water heater. It has been in place now for over 10 years and is flawless. It makes infinite hot water for a small house - one full bath, kitchen and outside shower. It is fed from a shallow well, again with no issues at all.
Upside: NO storage of hot water. 90%+ efficient.
Downside: There is a definite threshold before the flame starts, so those who dribble-rinse their dishes will be unhappy. And turning the water on and off leaves a (small) gap of cold water with each flame-start.
At the main house, we have a Weil-Mclain Ultra boiler with an indirect storage tank (40 gallons) that is super-insulated. As the boiler is 230,000 BTU, it can more than keep up with any demand, but the storage maintains a precisely even temperature irrespective of demand and incoming temperature. The boiler is 96% efficient, and we heat a 5,000 s.f. 1890-vintage center-hall colonial with no difficulty at all.
I would never go back to a conventional storage water heater, again.
Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
jurb...@gmail.com
Sep 28, 2018, 7:21:08 PM9/28/18
to
I've only seen gas ones. Actually I saw one advertised for about $ 250 which I think is reasonable if it is reliable.
From what I recollect you need a 1" gas line to it, and on top of flue (which is cool enough to use PVC I think)you need a fresh air intake otherwise whenever it runs it creates a sight vacuum pulling in air that is not heated nor cooled to your satisfaction. The next one here might be a tankless, we got a 1½" gas line right near the existing tank.
I don't know about electric ones, but common sense tells that they pull alot of juice. You might actually need to upgrade your service unless it is already new enough. No flue or intake though, which you would need not just for gas, but for LP, propane, anything that burns.
If you install it yourself, fuck all that noise about a pipe threader, get the precut, threaded gas (sometimes called "black") pipe and then the unit goes where it goes and you adjust the water lines to accomodate. Almost anything is easier to deal with than thickwall 1" steel pipe.
If the existing tank here goes I will know alot more because we do not call contractors, well except for roofing and concrete and not all the time for that either. The houses of almost everyone we know are worked on by me, or Jack if he gets back into it.
From what I recollect you need a 1" gas line to it, and on top of flue (which is cool enough to use PVC I think)you need a fresh air intake otherwise whenever it runs it creates a sight vacuum pulling in air that is not heated nor cooled to your satisfaction. The next one here might be a tankless, we got a 1½" gas line right near the existing tank.
I don't know about electric ones, but common sense tells that they pull alot of juice. You might actually need to upgrade your service unless it is already new enough. No flue or intake though, which you would need not just for gas, but for LP, propane, anything that burns.
If you install it yourself, fuck all that noise about a pipe threader, get the precut, threaded gas (sometimes called "black") pipe and then the unit goes where it goes and you adjust the water lines to accomodate. Almost anything is easier to deal with than thickwall 1" steel pipe.
If the existing tank here goes I will know alot more because we do not call contractors, well except for roofing and concrete and not all the time for that either. The houses of almost everyone we know are worked on by me, or Jack if he gets back into it.
The Real Bev
Sep 28, 2018, 11:44:26 PM9/28/18
to
On 09/28/2018 04:21 PM, jurb...@gmail.com wrote:
> I've only seen gas ones. Actually I saw one advertised for about $
> 250 which I think is reasonable if it is reliable.
>
> From what I recollect you need a 1" gas line to it, and on top of
> flue (which is cool enough to use PVC I think)you need a fresh air
> intake otherwise whenever it runs it creates a sight vacuum pulling
> in air that is not heated nor cooled to your satisfaction. The next
> one here might be a tankless, we got a 1½" gas line right near the
> existing tank.
OK, you guys have convinced me that they're OK.
> I've only seen gas ones. Actually I saw one advertised for about $
> 250 which I think is reasonable if it is reliable.
>
> From what I recollect you need a 1" gas line to it, and on top of
> flue (which is cool enough to use PVC I think)you need a fresh air
> intake otherwise whenever it runs it creates a sight vacuum pulling
> in air that is not heated nor cooled to your satisfaction. The next
> one here might be a tankless, we got a 1½" gas line right near the
> existing tank.
Our tank-heater refuses to light, and we've had it long enough that it's
probably been reduced to half the original volume. Google has
igniter-changing videos, but that looks painful for people who don't
like kneeling/lying on the floor. The gas company guy is coming Monday
to take a look, and I assume he can tell us what additional stuff we
might need and maybe roughly how much it will cost to have one installed.
I do dishes maybe once a week, and I'm pretty tolerant.
I just looked at our gas bill. The gas costs $12/month (13 therms),
there's a per-house charge of $5 and $3 in taxes. I don't think we'll
break even with the savings in our lifetime, but it's worth something
to not have to deal with the tanks ever again.
--
Cheers, Bev
"Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea:
massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining,
and a source of mind-boggling amounts of excrement when you
least expect it." --Gene Spafford (1992)
John Robertson
Sep 29, 2018, 1:06:48 PM9/29/18
to
On 2018/09/28 8:44 PM, The Real Bev wrote:
> On 09/28/2018 04:21 PM, jurb...@gmail.com wrote:
>> I've only seen gas ones. Actually I saw one advertised for about $
>> 250 which I think is reasonable if it is reliable.
>>
>> From what I recollect you need a 1" gas line to it, and on top of
>> flue (which is cool enough to use PVC I think)you need a fresh air
>> intake otherwise whenever it runs it creates a sight vacuum pulling
>> in air that is not heated nor cooled to your satisfaction. The next
>> one here might be a tankless, we got a 1½" gas line right near the
>> existing tank.
>
> OK, you guys have convinced me that they're OK.
>
> Our tank-heater refuses to light, and we've had it long enough that it's
> probably been reduced to half the original volume. Google has
> igniter-changing videos, but that looks painful for people who don't
> like kneeling/lying on the floor. The gas company guy is coming Monday
> to take a look, and I assume he can tell us what additional stuff we
> might need and maybe roughly how much it will cost to have one installed.
>
> I do dishes maybe once a week, and I'm pretty tolerant.
>
> I just looked at our gas bill. The gas costs $12/month (13 therms),
> there's a per-house charge of $5 and $3 in taxes. I don't think we'll
> break even with the savings in our lifetime, but it's worth something
> to not have to deal with the tanks ever again.
>
Hot water tanks typically corrode out in ten years, so if yours is
> On 09/28/2018 04:21 PM, jurb...@gmail.com wrote:
>> I've only seen gas ones. Actually I saw one advertised for about $
>> 250 which I think is reasonable if it is reliable.
>>
>> From what I recollect you need a 1" gas line to it, and on top of
>> flue (which is cool enough to use PVC I think)you need a fresh air
>> intake otherwise whenever it runs it creates a sight vacuum pulling
>> in air that is not heated nor cooled to your satisfaction. The next
>> one here might be a tankless, we got a 1½" gas line right near the
>> existing tank.
>
> OK, you guys have convinced me that they're OK.
>
> Our tank-heater refuses to light, and we've had it long enough that it's
> probably been reduced to half the original volume. Google has
> igniter-changing videos, but that looks painful for people who don't
> like kneeling/lying on the floor. The gas company guy is coming Monday
> to take a look, and I assume he can tell us what additional stuff we
> might need and maybe roughly how much it will cost to have one installed.
>
> I do dishes maybe once a week, and I'm pretty tolerant.
>
> I just looked at our gas bill. The gas costs $12/month (13 therms),
> there's a per-house charge of $5 and $3 in taxes. I don't think we'll
> break even with the savings in our lifetime, but it's worth something
> to not have to deal with the tanks ever again.
>
anywhere near that age it is best to replace it if it has already
stopped working. If still working put a water leakage detector under it
and keep the batteries fresh!
Go with a good name brand tankless that has a reputation for good
support, and find out how resistant to corrosion it is, this would be my
primary concern.
John :-#)#
--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd.
MOVED to #7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3
(604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
Jerry Peters
Sep 29, 2018, 4:16:35 PM9/29/18
to
replaced an old tankles with a new one because the manufacterer had
gone out of business leaving the old wh un-repairable.
>
> John :-#)#
Stephen Wolstenholme
Sep 30, 2018, 4:03:35 AM9/30/18
to
On Sat, 29 Sep 2018 10:06:40 -0700, John Robertson <sp...@flippers.com>
wrote:
>Hot water tanks typically corrode out in ten years, so if yours is
>anywhere near that age it is best to replace it if it has already
>stopped working. If still working put a water leakage detector under it
>and keep the batteries fresh!
>
The first house I bought had a copper hot water tank that was
installed when the house was built in 1911. It had never been
replaced.
>Go with a good name brand tankless that has a reputation for good
>support, and find out how resistant to corrosion it is, this would be my
>primary concern.
I now have a house with a Combi gas boiler that has no tank. The water
gets heated on demand. The it takes about five seconds to heat the
water.
Steve
--
http://www.npsnn.com
wrote:
>Hot water tanks typically corrode out in ten years, so if yours is
>anywhere near that age it is best to replace it if it has already
>stopped working. If still working put a water leakage detector under it
>and keep the batteries fresh!
>
installed when the house was built in 1911. It had never been
replaced.
>Go with a good name brand tankless that has a reputation for good
>support, and find out how resistant to corrosion it is, this would be my
>primary concern.
gets heated on demand. The it takes about five seconds to heat the
water.
Steve
--
http://www.npsnn.com
Lee
Sep 30, 2018, 9:59:41 AM9/30/18
to
On 28/09/2018 20:15, The Real Bev wrote:
> I ask here because the home repair group is worthless and you guys are
> smart.
>
> Anybody see a downside to a natural-gas tankless water heater? We don't
> need a huge quantity of hot water at any one time and the tankless ones
> seem cheaper than the normal ones which eventually solidify with SoCal
> hard-water crap.
>
Surprised no one has yet pointed out that if the water is that hard then
> I ask here because the home repair group is worthless and you guys are
> smart.
>
> Anybody see a downside to a natural-gas tankless water heater? We don't
> need a huge quantity of hot water at any one time and the tankless ones
> seem cheaper than the normal ones which eventually solidify with SoCal
> hard-water crap.
>
you will need to choose a model with a Teflon coated (or similar) heat
exchanger or it too will scale up eventually.
Ralph Mowery
Sep 30, 2018, 6:32:37 PM9/30/18
to
In article <polukp$g9$1...@dont-email.me>, bashl...@gmail.com says...
country.
Check the price of doing all the piping to get the gas to the water
heater. It takes lots of gas for a short period of time instead of
small ammounts for longer time.
Check how long the different ones last and how much they cost and if you
can replace them yourself or need a pro to do it.
>
> I ask here because the home repair group is worthless and you guys are
> smart.
>
> Anybody see a downside to a natural-gas tankless water heater? We don't
> need a huge quantity of hot water at any one time and the tankless ones
> seem cheaper than the normal ones which eventually solidify with SoCal
> hard-water crap.
>
>
>
Being in SoCal may be somewhat different from other parts of the
> I ask here because the home repair group is worthless and you guys are
> smart.
>
> Anybody see a downside to a natural-gas tankless water heater? We don't
> need a huge quantity of hot water at any one time and the tankless ones
> seem cheaper than the normal ones which eventually solidify with SoCal
> hard-water crap.
>
>
>
country.
Check the price of doing all the piping to get the gas to the water
heater. It takes lots of gas for a short period of time instead of
small ammounts for longer time.
Check how long the different ones last and how much they cost and if you
can replace them yourself or need a pro to do it.
jurb...@gmail.com
Sep 30, 2018, 7:59:55 PM9/30/18
to
>"It takes lots of gas for a short period of time instead of
small ammounts for longer time. "
They want a 1" gas line all the way to the meter.
small ammounts for longer time. "
>"Check how long the different ones last and how much they cost and if you
can replace them yourself or need a pro to do it. "
Most cities will tell you you need a licensed pro and a permit, but that is incorrect. Still, if you do it yourself you can have it inspected, most places. But if in Kalifornia laws mean nothing. Liberal whims rule. So basically if you decide to do it on your own, don't even talk to them. Don't get into that legal battle. I am not afraid of it but I won't send anyone else in for that. Just keep your mouth shut about it.
If you are incapable of doing it, the best bet is to find the local plumber's union hall and find one who is in between jobs. You'll pay their rate of course, but you won't have to also pay a guy in an expensive suit to sit on his ass.
The Real Bev
Sep 30, 2018, 11:35:51 PM9/30/18
to
On 09/30/2018 04:59 PM, jurb...@gmail.com wrote:
>> "It takes lots of gas for a short period of time instead of
> small ammounts for longer time. "
>
> They want a 1" gas line all the way to the meter.
That is probably the biggest problem and the thing that kills the project.
>> "It takes lots of gas for a short period of time instead of
> small ammounts for longer time. "
>
> They want a 1" gas line all the way to the meter.
>> "Check how long the different ones last and how much they cost and
>> if you can replace them yourself or need a pro to do it. "
>
> That's a biggie these days when many people don't know how to change
> a flat tire. Anything with gas make sure you know what you're doing
> or you might go out in the proverbial blaze of glory.
> Most cities will tell you you need a licensed pro and a permit, but
> that is incorrect. Still, if you do it yourself you can have it
> inspected, most places. But if in Kalifornia laws mean nothing.
> Liberal whims rule. So basically if you decide to do it on your own,
> don't even talk to them. Don't get into that legal battle. I am not
> afraid of it but I won't send anyone else in for that. Just keep
> your mouth shut about it.
> If you are incapable of doing it, the best bet is to find the local
> plumber's union hall and find one who is in between jobs. You'll pay
> their rate of course, but you won't have to also pay a guy in an
> expensive suit to sit on his ass.
equivalent of banging on the side with a wrench. All pigs fed and ready
to fly.
--
Cheers, Bev
"Screw the end users. If they want good software,
let them write it themselves." -- Anon.
peterw...@gmail.com
Oct 1, 2018, 8:02:22 AM10/1/18
to
On the 1" line to the meter - it ain't necessarily so. The size of the line is dependent on the size of the heater, the distance from the meter, and the gas pressure. Keep in mind that the typical tankless heater uses somewhere between 150,000 BTUH and 250,000 BTUH.
One cubic foot of gas is 1,010 BTU - use 1,000.
You will need between 150 and 250 cubic feet of gas per hour. That is 2.5 - 4.2 cf/minute.
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/natural-gas-pipe-sizing-d_826.html Will help you size the needed pipe.
There is also flexible piping these days that is a breeze to install (unless you are a expert, amend that a breeze for *someone else* to install), and around here, the gas utility will do a certain amount of internal work if you are installing a new appliance.
If the only gas you burn is to make hot water, you are absolutely correct that the payback will be beyond your expected lifetime. In a full-time residence, storage-losses are insignificant, use is constant, and the relative difference in installed cost between an instant and a conventional tank-storage heater (3:1) blows up the financial advantages. For our summer house, the use patterns are quite different, the house is at the end of a long dirt 'lane', making propane delivery inconvenient (we get an annual delivery along with a tank inspection), so reducing use and storage losses is important. That a tankless is +/- 28% more efficient than even the best storage-type heaters, and takes up almost no space are additional advantages applicable in a small summer house.
One cubic foot of gas is 1,010 BTU - use 1,000.
You will need between 150 and 250 cubic feet of gas per hour. That is 2.5 - 4.2 cf/minute.
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/natural-gas-pipe-sizing-d_826.html Will help you size the needed pipe.
There is also flexible piping these days that is a breeze to install (unless you are a expert, amend that a breeze for *someone else* to install), and around here, the gas utility will do a certain amount of internal work if you are installing a new appliance.
If the only gas you burn is to make hot water, you are absolutely correct that the payback will be beyond your expected lifetime. In a full-time residence, storage-losses are insignificant, use is constant, and the relative difference in installed cost between an instant and a conventional tank-storage heater (3:1) blows up the financial advantages. For our summer house, the use patterns are quite different, the house is at the end of a long dirt 'lane', making propane delivery inconvenient (we get an annual delivery along with a tank inspection), so reducing use and storage losses is important. That a tankless is +/- 28% more efficient than even the best storage-type heaters, and takes up almost no space are additional advantages applicable in a small summer house.
The Real Bev
Oct 1, 2018, 6:06:37 PM10/1/18
to
Top-posting as a notification that we dodged the bullet this time -- we
just couldn't actually see the pilot flame because it required lying on
the floor and looking up OR using a mirror to do it like the gas company
guy did.
Onward and upward and thanks to all you guys for your help.
--
Cheers, Bev
An organizer for the "Million Agoraphobics March" expressed
disappointment in the turnout for last weekend's event.
just couldn't actually see the pilot flame because it required lying on
the floor and looking up OR using a mirror to do it like the gas company
guy did.
Onward and upward and thanks to all you guys for your help.
Cheers, Bev
An organizer for the "Million Agoraphobics March" expressed
disappointment in the turnout for last weekend's event.
John Robertson
Oct 1, 2018, 7:28:23 PM10/1/18
to
On 2018/10/01 3:06 PM, The Real Bev wrote:
> Top-posting as a notification that we dodged the bullet this time -- we
> just couldn't actually see the pilot flame because it required lying on
> the floor and looking up OR using a mirror to do it like the gas company
> guy did.
>
> Onward and upward and thanks to all you guys for your help.
You might want to add that eventual replacement $$ into your house
> Top-posting as a notification that we dodged the bullet this time -- we
> just couldn't actually see the pilot flame because it required lying on
> the floor and looking up OR using a mirror to do it like the gas company
> guy did.
>
> Onward and upward and thanks to all you guys for your help.
savings account...
John :-#)#
bruce2...@gmail.com
Oct 10, 2018, 5:42:21 AM10/10/18
to
On Friday, September 28, 2018 at 7:21:08 PM UTC-4, jurb...@gmail.com wrote:
> I've only seen gas ones. Actually I saw one advertised for about $ 250 which I think is reasonable if it is reliable.
>
> From what I recollect you need a 1" gas line to it, and on top of flue (which is cool enough to use PVC I think)you need a fresh air intake otherwise whenever it runs it creates a sight vacuum pulling in air that is not heated nor cooled to your satisfaction. The next one here might be a tankless, we got a 1½" gas line right near the existing tank.
>
> I don't know about electric ones, but common sense tells that they pull alot of juice. You might actually need to upgrade your service unless it is already new enough. No flue or intake though, which you would need not just for gas, but for LP, propane, anything that burns.
>
> If you install it yourself, fuck all that noise about a pipe threader, get the precut, threaded gas (sometimes
> called "black") pipe and then the unit goes where it goes and you adjust the water lines to accomodate. Almost
> anything is easier to deal with than thickwall 1" steel pipe.
Installing that might need a gas service shut-off AND an electric utility shut-out before work begins in addition to everything else. Just to make sure the random spark doesn't find its way in.
> I've only seen gas ones. Actually I saw one advertised for about $ 250 which I think is reasonable if it is reliable.
>
> From what I recollect you need a 1" gas line to it, and on top of flue (which is cool enough to use PVC I think)you need a fresh air intake otherwise whenever it runs it creates a sight vacuum pulling in air that is not heated nor cooled to your satisfaction. The next one here might be a tankless, we got a 1½" gas line right near the existing tank.
>
> I don't know about electric ones, but common sense tells that they pull alot of juice. You might actually need to upgrade your service unless it is already new enough. No flue or intake though, which you would need not just for gas, but for LP, propane, anything that burns.
>
> If you install it yourself, fuck all that noise about a pipe threader, get the precut, threaded gas (sometimes
> called "black") pipe and then the unit goes where it goes and you adjust the water lines to accomodate. Almost
> anything is easier to deal with than thickwall 1" steel pipe.
> If the existing tank here goes I will know alot more because we do not call contractors,
peterw...@gmail.com
Oct 10, 2018, 9:09:15 AM10/10/18
to
I used flex and a flaring tool. Flare-nut fittings are reliable, simple (remember to put the nut on before making the flare!), and effective. So, black-iron to include the drip-leg, and flex to make the last 18". I have a cut-off at the tank, at the T-fitting, and at the heater itself. Power is on a wall-switch nearby.
Neat, simple and safe.
Inspected by the Propane Supplier and passed.
NOTE: Many gas cut-off valves require considerable hand strength, or have very short handles. I installed devices such that were kid and wife-tested. They do exist, usually for a couple of bucks more. They are well worth it.
Neat, simple and safe.
Inspected by the Propane Supplier and passed.
NOTE: Many gas cut-off valves require considerable hand strength, or have very short handles. I installed devices such that were kid and wife-tested. They do exist, usually for a couple of bucks more. They are well worth it.
jurb...@gmail.com
Oct 10, 2018, 1:07:07 PM10/10/18
to
>"Installing that might need a gas service shut-off AND an electric utility shut-out before work begins in addition to everything else. Just to make sure the random spark doesn't find its way in. "
This particular tank has no electricity. It is fright next to the furnace. The furnace is supposed to be all by itself but we got all conduit so I can easily pull more wire through it.
Far as the gas is concerned there is a shutoff right by the meter. Plus I know what I'm doing, not that I would work on live gas. It's bad enough when I work on live electricity. And don't start that safety shit, there are plenty of installations with shared neutrals that can kill you just as fast with the branch circuit turned off, and it is impractical to turn off the whole building. So sometimes you just have to know how to respect electricity.
>"Then you bear future insurance costs instead of them. "
Plus the fact that nothing is going to happen. With all the work I've done and no problems I would rather do it than have anyone else do it, I have seen their work. It's like a contractor's license is to do whatever you want, and business insurance to so you don't lose your assets if you get sued. Shit should be illegal and people should be responsi9ble for what they do.
Of course people are so god damn stupid I saw an insurance card or something that said "Having insurance does not prevent you from having an accident, you must still drive safely". And you know about the notice in the newer RVs right ?
Anyway, what I meant by the heater goes where it does is because I am not getting a pipe threader that big to do one job. I mean, how many people are going to call me out of the blue to do that ? So then precut pipes go where they go and you adjust the water lines and electrical to hit where it is. I can run pipe and conduit.
Of course some people call the gas company to light a pilot light. In fact years ago a buddy was on his way up my front step and a neighbor who had just moved in pulled him aside and paid him $ 20 to install a gas stove. Just hook it up. I could understand if he knew me and looked for me, but not knowing anything... ??? And then they get % 75 to install a ceiling fan into an existing box if it is sturdy enough, which takes about a half hour. I would do it for $ 50 if it is local. If I have to travel then of course it is more. And actually it is the DIY stores that do it for $ 75, a real electrician would charge quite a bit more.
The one thing I will not do right now is install a backup generator. It has to be just right, if not you could kill a lineman. Mind you this is a guy trying to get your power back on so you don't have to keep filling the generator with whatever runs it. I haven't even seen it done so I won't.
Now, I burnt my fingers doing cement work yesterday...don't ask.
jurb...@gmail.com
Oct 10, 2018, 1:09:47 PM10/10/18
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>"I used flex and a flaring tool. Flare-nut fittings are reliable, simple (remember to put the nut on before making the flare!), and effective."
And illegal in some areas. I heard Canada or parts of it. That means all the stoves and dryers are hard piped in. It is not that hard as long as the floor is level and solid. Obviously you have to use a union and it helps if the two sides connect.
jurb...@gmail.com
Oct 10, 2018, 1:10:34 PM10/10/18
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>"NOTE: Many gas cut-off valves require considerable hand strength, or have very short handles."
Around here they got no handles, you need a wrench.
peterw...@gmail.com
Oct 10, 2018, 1:18:25 PM10/10/18
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On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 at 1:10:34 PM UTC-4, jurb...@gmail.com wrote:
> >"NOTE: Many gas cut-off valves require considerable hand strength, or have very short handles."
>
> Around here they got no handles, you need a wrench.
Not much use in an emergency, then.
> >"NOTE: Many gas cut-off valves require considerable hand strength, or have very short handles."
>
> Around here they got no handles, you need a wrench.
peterw...@gmail.com
Oct 10, 2018, 1:38:27 PM10/10/18
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On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 at 1:09:47 PM UTC-4, jurb...@gmail.com wrote:
> >"I used flex and a flaring tool. Flare-nut fittings are reliable, simple (remember to put the nut on before making the flare!), and effective."
>
> And illegal in some areas. I heard Canada or parts of it. That means all the stoves and dryers are hard piped in. It is not that hard as long as the floor is level and solid. Obviously you have to use a union and it helps if the two sides connect.
WOW!
> >"I used flex and a flaring tool. Flare-nut fittings are reliable, simple (remember to put the nut on before making the flare!), and effective."
>
> And illegal in some areas. I heard Canada or parts of it. That means all the stoves and dryers are hard piped in. It is not that hard as long as the floor is level and solid. Obviously you have to use a union and it helps if the two sides connect.
Storage water heaters do not vibrate, also true of tankless units. Also true (effectively) with most boilers and well-designed furnaces. But Dryers? Hard-piping a dryer without accommodation for vibration is a recipe for disaster. And, how does one service a hard-piped stove? Are you sure?
How insurance works with a suspended license: The Insurance Company insures the vehicle, and what it does, not the driver. So, they will pay any valid claims to the limit of your policy. However, the will not defend you as they would if you were driving legitimately. You will eat the legal costs. And the costs of any appeal(s), and so forth.
How insurance works with sub-standard work: We have our house insured for Actual Replacement Cost/Replacement in Kind. That, as it happens, comes with an estimated limit of $1,300,000. It is a center-hall colonial built in 1890 and so forth. You may bet that our insurance company verified everything in the house prior to writing the policy, including an on-site inside/out.
I do something - the house burns down as a result. Two possibilities:
a) If that "something" is specified within the limits of the policy as "must be done by licensed mechanic", I am SOL. They will pay legitimate liability claims (such as burning down the house next door), but nothing on the house.
b) If that "something" is not on the By-Licensed list, they will pay without demur. I might not get coverage again, but they will pay.
c) I can do anything I want, listed or not, as long as I have it inspected by the proper people or organization(s). A record of acceptance covers everything.
jurb...@gmail.com
Oct 11, 2018, 3:14:55 AM10/11/18
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>"But Dryers? Hard-piping a dryer without accommodation for vibration is a recipe for disaster."
Yes but there are ways. If you have a certain length of pipe in a certain direction and another perpendicular sorta, it is hard to explain but it can be done. I wouldn't want to do it. Plus note that I am not sure of the specifics. I said "I heard" and while there was no reason to lie that doesn't mean I got the details, like the exemptions.
>"How insurance works with a suspended license: The Insurance Company insures the vehicle, and what it does, not the driver. So, they will pay any valid claims to the limit of your policy. However, the will not defend you as they would if you were driving legitimately. You will eat the legal costs. And the costs of any appeal(s), and so forth. "
You could also get or post a financial responsibility bond. this allows yo to drive anything but a commercial vehicle. If you get one from a company the policy gives them the right as well as the obligation to settle the matter. The downside is if your liability limit is say $ 100,000 they can settle for a million and leave you holding the bag for the other $ 900,000.
It got fucked up by insurance lobbyists, the same type of folks who wrote Obamacare. (the ACA)
>"You may bet that our insurance company verified everything in the house prior to writing the policy, including an on-site inside/out. "
>"c) I can do anything I want, listed or not, as long as I have it inspected by the proper people or organization(s). A record of acceptance covers everything. "
People just believe people. I wasn't there when they were making the deal for my Mother's new driveway, they put it about an inch higher than the old one so water now gets in the garage and it doesn't match the steps in front anymore. I would have sued but it is too late now. I'm sure they would have said "That's code" and I would have said "Show me on the book" and they would get me to the wrong section about surveying and all this and say it must be at that level. This is only true of certain things, not a driveway. Come on, the thing isn't level anyway and how do they explain basements ? I would have told them GTFO. They also sold her a bunch of useless drain cleanouts that now make plowing almost impossible. I might cut them off this year. We might be able to get the city top come and plow for free. Problem is how to do it. I need to stuff something in there and then have enough room for a little bit of cement.
But whenever a contractor says something is code tell him "Show me the book" and then really pay attention, make sure that $ 1,000 job that must be done instead of the $ 200 job REALLY DOES apply to THAT job. Fucking god damn goniffs, and it is like almost all of them. That is why the people for whom I do work will have nobody else. Plus I charge in stages so if they want to pay cash and not get a loan they can do that more easily.
Laws do vary state to state and I wouldn't want to make a new start in another location at this late date in life. I can satisfy them here, but like California, if they really dragged me there in chains, kicking and screaming I still wouldn't try it there. Earthquake code and all this shit, fuck all that. I'm sure I can do it once I learn about it but I simply won't.
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