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Generator "Back Feed" through GFI Outlet
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jaugu...@verizon.net
Nov 27, 2012, 3:57:37 PM11/27/12
to
Hi,
I am planning on getting a generator incase of a long term loss of
power. So far that has never happened to me, but I want to be prepared.
If such an event would occur, I would "open" the main breaker, then
use the generator outside in back of my house to "back feed" through
an outside GFI outlet. Note: I have no interest in whole house power, but
power for the refrigerator and some low power devices.
I was planning on replacing the GFI outlet with a "regular" outlet, but a
friend told me he once used his generator and "back feed" through a GFI
outlet without a problem.
Does anyone know if "back feeding" through a GFI outlet is OK?
Thank You in advance, John
I am planning on getting a generator incase of a long term loss of
power. So far that has never happened to me, but I want to be prepared.
If such an event would occur, I would "open" the main breaker, then
use the generator outside in back of my house to "back feed" through
an outside GFI outlet. Note: I have no interest in whole house power, but
power for the refrigerator and some low power devices.
I was planning on replacing the GFI outlet with a "regular" outlet, but a
friend told me he once used his generator and "back feed" through a GFI
outlet without a problem.
Does anyone know if "back feeding" through a GFI outlet is OK?
Thank You in advance, John
Phil Hobbs
Nov 27, 2012, 4:30:09 PM11/27/12
to
can burn down your house, and even worse, you can kill a utility
lineman. (Those pole pig transformers work backwards too.)
A transfer switch doesn't have to be fancy--you can get ones that are
just a sliding piece of metal that attaches to the breaker box and
prevents the main breaker and the generator from being connected at the
same time.
http://www.interlockkit.com/
Failing that, use heavy duty extension cords, connected point-to-point
right to the loads.
But really, really don't try the male-to-male cheater cord approach.
http://www.generatorjoe.net/html/whataboutsws.html
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net
Cydrome Leader
Nov 27, 2012, 5:00:42 PM11/27/12
to
just run your fridge off a really good quality extension cord.
Jeff Liebermann
Nov 28, 2012, 12:14:39 AM11/28/12
to
On Tue, 27 Nov 2012 15:57:37 -0500, jaugu...@verizon.net wrote:
> I was planning on replacing the GFI outlet with a "regular" outlet, but a
>friend told me he once used his generator and "back feed" through a GFI
>outlet without a problem.
>
> Does anyone know if "back feeding" through a GFI outlet is OK?
It is NOT ok, GFI or regular outlet. The technique is often called a
> I was planning on replacing the GFI outlet with a "regular" outlet, but a
>friend told me he once used his generator and "back feed" through a GFI
>outlet without a problem.
>
> Does anyone know if "back feeding" through a GFI outlet is OK?
"suicide cord" where you have a power cord with a male power plug at
both ends. One goes to the generator, the other into a wall outlet.
Lots of problems.
1. If you forget to disconnect your house from the mains, you're
going to either power the rest of the neighborhood, or electrocute the
utility company employee trying to restore the power.
2. Your house is probably wired with two phases from the transformer
on the pole. The neutral wire carried the difference between the two
phases. If you backfeed one phase, the neutral is carrying the entire
load. If you had a two phase generator, and try to backfeed both
phases, you will to identify which wall jacks have each phase, and
then build an even bigger suicide cord with plugs for both phases. If
you do something really dumb, like parallel the phases, you'll
overload the capacity of the neutral wire and possible start a fire.
3. Generators are rated by their TOTAL power. Most home generators
supply two phases, each with HALF of the total power. If you try to
run your house with a generator with only one phase loaded, you're
going unbalance the generator and potentially cause a bearing failure.
At the least, it's going to sound rather funny. If you try to load
the generator to full capacity from one phase, it will likely shut
down in protest from overload.
4. Powering the entire house is wasteful and messy. Do you really
want to run around the house and turn off or unplug everything that
doesn't need power during an emergency?
As Phil Hobbs suggested, get a transfer switch with a safety
interlock. They come in various flavors and sizes, but all are far
better than a suicide cord. If your generator is portable, get a
transfer box with an appropriate connector rather than permanently
connecting your generator.
<https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=transfer+switch>
--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
N_Cook
Nov 28, 2012, 3:53:58 AM11/28/12
to
Cydrome Leader <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote in message
news:k93d6a$1kb$1...@reader1.panix.com...
Assuming the power rating of the generator was just enough power for when
the fridge is on, would such a generator be able to start with the fridge
compressor load in line and on, when powered up? How much of power headroom
required to overcome such an initial load, should the owner not be aware of
this , and wait and not power on the fridge when the gen is up and going.
news:k93d6a$1kb$1...@reader1.panix.com...
the fridge is on, would such a generator be able to start with the fridge
compressor load in line and on, when powered up? How much of power headroom
required to overcome such an initial load, should the owner not be aware of
this , and wait and not power on the fridge when the gen is up and going.
mike
Nov 28, 2012, 7:13:24 AM11/28/12
to
On 11/27/2012 9:14 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Nov 2012 15:57:37 -0500, jaugu...@verizon.net wrote:
>
>> I was planning on replacing the GFI outlet with a "regular" outlet, but a
>> friend told me he once used his generator and "back feed" through a GFI
>> outlet without a problem.
>>
>> Does anyone know if "back feeding" through a GFI outlet is OK?
>
> It is NOT ok, GFI or regular outlet. The technique is often called a
> "suicide cord" where you have a power cord with a male power plug at
> both ends. One goes to the generator, the other into a wall outlet.
> Lots of problems.
I found a good deal on a generator at a garage sale.
> On Tue, 27 Nov 2012 15:57:37 -0500, jaugu...@verizon.net wrote:
>
>> I was planning on replacing the GFI outlet with a "regular" outlet, but a
>> friend told me he once used his generator and "back feed" through a GFI
>> outlet without a problem.
>>
>> Does anyone know if "back feeding" through a GFI outlet is OK?
>
> It is NOT ok, GFI or regular outlet. The technique is often called a
> "suicide cord" where you have a power cord with a male power plug at
> both ends. One goes to the generator, the other into a wall outlet.
> Lots of problems.
I found another good deal on a DIY transfer switch at another garage sale.
These were both impulse purchases with no opportunity to research.
When I got around to setting it up, I discovered that the permit
fees exceeded the cost of the hardware.
There were other issues where the national electrical code seemed to
specifically prohibit things that the inspector said would be ok.
And since the electrical service doesn't meet current code, there's
risk that messing around in the breaker box might require some
other major COSTLY changes. Opinions vary.
I don't think the project will ever happen.
Extension cord sounds like the right option.
Jeff Liebermann
Nov 28, 2012, 11:25:42 AM11/28/12
to
On Wed, 28 Nov 2012 04:13:24 -0800, mike <ham...@netzero.net> wrote:
>I found a good deal on a generator at a garage sale.
>I found another good deal on a DIY transfer switch at another garage sale.
>These were both impulse purchases with no opportunity to research.
I currently have two small generators, neither of which runs. At one
>I found a good deal on a generator at a garage sale.
>I found another good deal on a DIY transfer switch at another garage sale.
>These were both impulse purchases with no opportunity to research.
time, there were four generators. I bring home obvious repair jobs in
the hope that I would find the time to repair them. Somehow, it never
happens.
>When I got around to setting it up, I discovered that the permit
>fees exceeded the cost of the hardware.
utility side requires utility company involvement and can be
expensive. If your transfer box is designed to work with an autostart
type generator and/or you plan to power the entire house, you need
this type.
The type that installs on the load side of the breaker box, is much
easier to deal with, does not require utility company involvement, and
is treated by the county as a secondary breaker box. Any competent
electrician can do the work. I don't recall the exact permit fees,
but I think they were about $150 as of a few years ago. Something
like this:
<https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200321033_200321033>
<http://www.reliancecontrols.com>
>There were other issues where the national electrical code seemed to
>specifically prohibit things that the inspector said would be ok.
last year. Inspector 1 would show up and declare everything to be
wrong. After changes were made according to Inspector 1's opinions,
Inspector 2 would arrive and declare that it's all wrong and should be
done yet another way. The process is endless and seems to be designed
to keep general contractors and inspectors in business. Reciting NEC
code chapter and verse to the inspector does nothing useful. We even
have examples of the county breaking state law, and not caring because
they know it's too expensive for a homeowner to run it through the
courts.
<http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/localnews/ci_15801577>
>And since the electrical service doesn't meet current code, there's
>risk that messing around in the breaker box might require some
>other major COSTLY changes. Opinions vary.
current code, they will sometimes make you bring the entire house up
to specification. You could be doing a minor electrical modification,
but the county will sometimes turn it into a major project. This
tends to discourage homeowners from obtaining permits. The major
incentive is that the homeowners insurance company will not use
non-permitted construction as an excuse to not pay a claim.
>I don't think the project will ever happen.
>Extension cord sounds like the right option.
Incidentally, one of the neighbors nearly had a fire trying to run his
freezer, fridge, electronics, and who knows what else, from a series
of cheap 16/3 extension cords. Make sure the extension cord can
handle the load. Also, make an effort to balance the load between the
two phases.
Jeff Liebermann
Nov 28, 2012, 11:33:43 AM11/28/12
to
On Wed, 28 Nov 2012 08:25:42 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:
><https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200321033_200321033>
><http://www.reliancecontrols.com>
The manual, which shows how it works and how it's wired.
<http://www.reliancecontrols.com/Documents/ProTran%20Instructions.pdf>
wrote:
><https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200321033_200321033>
><http://www.reliancecontrols.com>
The manual, which shows how it works and how it's wired.
<http://www.reliancecontrols.com/Documents/ProTran%20Instructions.pdf>
bud--
Nov 28, 2012, 11:52:24 AM11/28/12
to
On 11/28/2012 10:25 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
> There are two types of transfer boxes. The one that connects on the
> utility side requires utility company involvement and can be
> expensive. If your transfer box is designed to work with an autostart
> type generator and/or you plan to power the entire house, you need
> this type.
Probably not for auto-transfer. The generator would have to supply the
>
> There are two types of transfer boxes. The one that connects on the
> utility side requires utility company involvement and can be
> expensive. If your transfer box is designed to work with an autostart
> type generator and/or you plan to power the entire house, you need
> this type.
total connected load.
The transfer switch below is more likely to be auto-transfer. It only
runs selected loads which a properly sized generator can supply.
>
> The type that installs on the load side of the breaker box, is much
> easier to deal with, does not require utility company involvement, and
> is treated by the county as a secondary breaker box. Any competent
> electrician can do the work. I don't recall the exact permit fees,
> but I think they were about $150 as of a few years ago. Something
> like this:
> <https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200321033_200321033>
> <http://www.reliancecontrols.com>
>
position in the service panel and backfeed it from the generator. A
mechanical interlock on the door prevents the service disconnect and
generator breaker being on at the same time. Phil gave a source for the
interlocks. Some panel manufacturers also sell them.
I agree with others that a "suicide cord" is a real bad idea. For an
easy to disconnect connection a proper method is to use an "inlet" with
appropriate ratings:
http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/SectionDisplay.jsp?section=41854&minisite=10251
The cord from the generator to the inlet is a normal extension cord with
the appropriate rating and ends. With a transfer switch or interlock,
the prongs of the inlet will never be live.
mike
Nov 28, 2012, 12:24:36 PM11/28/12
to
On 11/28/2012 8:52 AM, bud-- wrote:
> On 11/28/2012 10:25 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>
>> There are two types of transfer boxes. The one that connects on the
>> utility side requires utility company involvement and can be
>> expensive. If your transfer box is designed to work with an autostart
>> type generator and/or you plan to power the entire house, you need
>> this type.
>
> Probably not for auto-transfer. The generator would have to supply the
> total connected load.
>
> The transfer switch below is more likely to be auto-transfer. It only
> runs selected loads which a properly sized generator can supply.
>
>>
>> The type that installs on the load side of the breaker box, is much
>> easier to deal with, does not require utility company involvement, and
>> is treated by the county as a secondary breaker box. Any competent
>> electrician can do the work. I don't recall the exact permit fees,
>> but I think they were about $150 as of a few years ago. Something
>> like this:
>> <https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200321033_200321033>
>> <http://www.reliancecontrols.com>
>>
I bought one of those for a buck. And a new 5KW generator for $100.
> On 11/28/2012 10:25 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>
>> There are two types of transfer boxes. The one that connects on the
>> utility side requires utility company involvement and can be
>> expensive. If your transfer box is designed to work with an autostart
>> type generator and/or you plan to power the entire house, you need
>> this type.
>
> Probably not for auto-transfer. The generator would have to supply the
> total connected load.
>
> The transfer switch below is more likely to be auto-transfer. It only
> runs selected loads which a properly sized generator can supply.
>
>>
>> The type that installs on the load side of the breaker box, is much
>> easier to deal with, does not require utility company involvement, and
>> is treated by the county as a secondary breaker box. Any competent
>> electrician can do the work. I don't recall the exact permit fees,
>> but I think they were about $150 as of a few years ago. Something
>> like this:
>> <https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200321033_200321033>
>> <http://www.reliancecontrols.com>
>>
Were those "Can'tPassItUp" deals that I later regretted.
I have some really nice cable that can easily handle the generator
interconnect, but it doesn't have the proper markings, so wouldn't
be strictly code compliant either.
An additional $150 for a permit and iffy approvals killed my ambition.
>
> A third approach is in Phil's post. You install a breaker in a top
> position in the service panel and backfeed it from the generator. A
> mechanical interlock on the door prevents the service disconnect and
> generator breaker being on at the same time. Phil gave a source for the
> interlocks. Some panel manufacturers also sell them.
those were NOT legal under any circumstances.
Didn't really matter cuz...
My box has 5 primary breakers each supporting a set of secondary breakers.
Since there's no single disconnect, I have no way to get from one
branch to another using an interlock.
Next time we have a substantial power outage, I'll dump the whole lot
on Craigslist.
Cydrome Leader
Nov 28, 2012, 1:01:33 PM11/28/12
to
defrost cycle coils might help a big during a power outage though. They
waste lots of power.
Cydrome Leader
Nov 28, 2012, 1:06:43 PM11/28/12
to
your own.
goto the hardware store or electric supply and get some good rubber cord
and some real plugs and make a receptable box.
I'm terrified by the shit they sell as extension cords these days. The
contact are always utter crap, the crips are usually corroded by the cheap
plastic and they are going to burn up at more than a 3 amp load.
If you're a contractor doing work an a cord burns up running a chop saw,
no big deal.
If you're asleep at home, that's different story.
Jon Elson
Nov 28, 2012, 5:30:36 PM11/28/12
to
mike wrote:
>
> I found a good deal on a generator at a garage sale.
> I found another good deal on a DIY transfer switch at another garage sale.
> These were both impulse purchases with no opportunity to research.
>
>
> I found a good deal on a generator at a garage sale.
> I found another good deal on a DIY transfer switch at another garage sale.
> These were both impulse purchases with no opportunity to research.
>
> Extension cord sounds like the right option.
When the Y2K mania was in full swing, my wife let me buy a small generator.
We had a really messy ice storm some years ago, and I knew power was going
out when I could hear major branches falling at one second intervals.
When the juice went off, I went to the basement and rewired our furnace
to a power plug, brought in the extension cords and went to bed,
About 6 AM, my wife woke me and said it was freezing. So, I started
the generator next to our garage, plugged the extension cord in, and
powered our fridge, freezer and furnace, and charged some batteries.
Even before the generator ran out of gas, it was warm in the house, and
the fridges were cycling normally, so I shut it down. I was just about
to do it again when the power came back on. (There is an advantage
being close to the substation with no HV fuses between, you get your
distribution line up first.)
Jon
jurb...@gmail.com
Nov 28, 2012, 10:48:06 PM11/28/12
to jme...@wustl.edu
Government asshole bullshit ends at the outlet. It is not that hard to setup a system that does not touch the electrical wiring in the house and just use cords. The transfer switch is built into an electric cord basically, they have absolutely no jurisdiction.
I could do it, I could show you how to do it and I can do it reasonable in cost.
Not one single permit required. You don't even have to take an outlet cover off.
Get a couple 24V relays and a transformer, a roll of 12-3 WG UF Romex (has to be UF) and a few other things and you can tell the inspectors to go fuck off.
However you WILL have to completely understand how the thing works and all the safeties involved and never defeat them, otherwise your house insurance might refuse to pay in the event of an ,,,,, event. One of the most important things is that the device(s) must not cause a fire or any other problem like that.
This is VERY important. The insurance can say whatever they want, but no matter what you do, I mean you could have a fucking meth lab in there, and if it does not CAUSE the loss it is not grounds for denial of claim in any jurisdiction of which I am aware.
Just like if you are drinkiing or don't have a license, they will tell you that any accident is your fault because you should not have been there even if you get reareanded at a red light. That is another thing "they" tell you that is simply a fucking lie. Some are told that if you don't have car insurance you cannot collect if you get rearended. That is also bullmotherfuckingshit.
Maybe it is different in othr countries, but in the US that is the way it is no matter what the lawyers say, even the ones in government. The COURTS say, and that is a bit different crowd. And the cops are not lawyers eityher, so do not forget that. Remember what YOU know if you get busted for something, not what they tell you.
Enough on that. This is not tht hard to do. With a bunch of extension cords going to a couple of boxes I can do this in a prefaectly acceptable fashion. I can make it comply with all major UL requirements. Not a big problem at all.
J
I could do it, I could show you how to do it and I can do it reasonable in cost.
Not one single permit required. You don't even have to take an outlet cover off.
Get a couple 24V relays and a transformer, a roll of 12-3 WG UF Romex (has to be UF) and a few other things and you can tell the inspectors to go fuck off.
However you WILL have to completely understand how the thing works and all the safeties involved and never defeat them, otherwise your house insurance might refuse to pay in the event of an ,,,,, event. One of the most important things is that the device(s) must not cause a fire or any other problem like that.
This is VERY important. The insurance can say whatever they want, but no matter what you do, I mean you could have a fucking meth lab in there, and if it does not CAUSE the loss it is not grounds for denial of claim in any jurisdiction of which I am aware.
Just like if you are drinkiing or don't have a license, they will tell you that any accident is your fault because you should not have been there even if you get reareanded at a red light. That is another thing "they" tell you that is simply a fucking lie. Some are told that if you don't have car insurance you cannot collect if you get rearended. That is also bullmotherfuckingshit.
Maybe it is different in othr countries, but in the US that is the way it is no matter what the lawyers say, even the ones in government. The COURTS say, and that is a bit different crowd. And the cops are not lawyers eityher, so do not forget that. Remember what YOU know if you get busted for something, not what they tell you.
Enough on that. This is not tht hard to do. With a bunch of extension cords going to a couple of boxes I can do this in a prefaectly acceptable fashion. I can make it comply with all major UL requirements. Not a big problem at all.
J
bud--
Nov 29, 2012, 11:12:45 AM11/29/12
to
On 11/28/2012 11:24 AM, mike wrote:
> On 11/28/2012 8:52 AM, bud-- wrote:
>>
>> A third approach is in Phil's post. You install a breaker in a top
>> position in the service panel and backfeed it from the generator. A
>> mechanical interlock on the door prevents the service disconnect and
>> generator breaker being on at the same time. Phil gave a source for the
>> interlocks. Some panel manufacturers also sell them.
>
> I asked about interlocks and was beat bloody in the newsgroups that
> those were NOT legal under any circumstances.
I have no idea what "the newsgroups" are.
> On 11/28/2012 8:52 AM, bud-- wrote:
>>
>> A third approach is in Phil's post. You install a breaker in a top
>> position in the service panel and backfeed it from the generator. A
>> mechanical interlock on the door prevents the service disconnect and
>> generator breaker being on at the same time. Phil gave a source for the
>> interlocks. Some panel manufacturers also sell them.
>
> I asked about interlocks and was beat bloody in the newsgroups that
> those were NOT legal under any circumstances.
I have only looked at SquareD and Siemens. Both have panel cover
interlocks. They are code compliant. Likely Phil's link is also allowed.
JW
Nov 29, 2012, 11:31:11 AM11/29/12
to
On Thu, 29 Nov 2012 10:12:45 -0600 bud-- <remove....@isp.com> wrote in
Message id: <50b789bc$0$60726$c3e8da3$5d8f...@news.astraweb.com>:
>On 11/28/2012 11:24 AM, mike wrote:
>> On 11/28/2012 8:52 AM, bud-- wrote:
>>>
>>> A third approach is in Phil's post. You install a breaker in a top
>>> position in the service panel and backfeed it from the generator. A
>>> mechanical interlock on the door prevents the service disconnect and
>>> generator breaker being on at the same time. Phil gave a source for the
>>> interlocks. Some panel manufacturers also sell them.
>>
>> I asked about interlocks and was beat bloody in the newsgroups that
>> those were NOT legal under any circumstances.
>
>I have no idea what "the newsgroups" are.
ObMadge: You're soaking in it.
Message id: <50b789bc$0$60726$c3e8da3$5d8f...@news.astraweb.com>:
>On 11/28/2012 11:24 AM, mike wrote:
>> On 11/28/2012 8:52 AM, bud-- wrote:
>>>
>>> A third approach is in Phil's post. You install a breaker in a top
>>> position in the service panel and backfeed it from the generator. A
>>> mechanical interlock on the door prevents the service disconnect and
>>> generator breaker being on at the same time. Phil gave a source for the
>>> interlocks. Some panel manufacturers also sell them.
>>
>> I asked about interlocks and was beat bloody in the newsgroups that
>> those were NOT legal under any circumstances.
>
>I have no idea what "the newsgroups" are.
klem kedidelhopper
Nov 30, 2012, 11:38:00 AM11/30/12
to
On Nov 29, 11:31 am, JW <n...@dev.null> wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Nov 2012 10:12:45 -0600 bud-- <remove.budn...@isp.com> wrote in
> Message id: <50b789bc$0$60726$c3e8da3$5d8fb...@news.astraweb.com>:
for repair. We were discussing this very thing. I told him that I
wouldn't want his job for any salary. He told me that back feeders who
are not smart enough to kill the main are a constant problem. There
was a case here a few years ago where a lineman was critically injured
from a back fed secondary. I'm also told that if an electrocution
should take place the AG might seek a manslaughter conviction. So
"how" I asked do these poor guys protect themselves against these
bozos?
There are apparently a number of ways this is done. First, with
utility power off on the primaries the guys ground the line, (phase)
on each side of where they're working. This does two things. first it
protects them against 240v induced into a pole pig's secondary and
second, as long as Mr. Bozo's generator connects to house neutral at
some point, which it would if he's using a suicide cord etc, it should
trip out the breakers on the generator or smoke it. They also have
inductive poles they can hold near a line that will light up and sing
in the presence of primary voltage. I still wouldn't want the job.
Lenny
> On Thu, 29 Nov 2012 10:12:45 -0600 bud-- <remove.budn...@isp.com> wrote in
> Message id: <50b789bc$0$60726$c3e8da3$5d8fb...@news.astraweb.com>:
>
> >On 11/28/2012 11:24 AM, mike wrote:
> >> On 11/28/2012 8:52 AM, bud-- wrote:
>
> >>> A third approach is in Phil's post. You install a breaker in a top
> >>> position in the service panel and backfeed it from the generator. A
> >>> mechanical interlock on the door prevents the service disconnect and
> >>> generator breaker being on at the same time. Phil gave a source for the
> >>> interlocks. Some panel manufacturers also sell them.
>
> >> I asked about interlocks and was beat bloody in the newsgroups that
> >> those were NOT legal under any circumstances.
>
> >I have no idea what "the newsgroups" are.
>
> ObMadge: You're soaking in it.
I was recently talking with a utility lineman who brought a TV in here
> >On 11/28/2012 11:24 AM, mike wrote:
> >> On 11/28/2012 8:52 AM, bud-- wrote:
>
> >>> A third approach is in Phil's post. You install a breaker in a top
> >>> position in the service panel and backfeed it from the generator. A
> >>> mechanical interlock on the door prevents the service disconnect and
> >>> generator breaker being on at the same time. Phil gave a source for the
> >>> interlocks. Some panel manufacturers also sell them.
>
> >> I asked about interlocks and was beat bloody in the newsgroups that
> >> those were NOT legal under any circumstances.
>
> >I have no idea what "the newsgroups" are.
>
> ObMadge: You're soaking in it.
for repair. We were discussing this very thing. I told him that I
wouldn't want his job for any salary. He told me that back feeders who
are not smart enough to kill the main are a constant problem. There
was a case here a few years ago where a lineman was critically injured
from a back fed secondary. I'm also told that if an electrocution
should take place the AG might seek a manslaughter conviction. So
"how" I asked do these poor guys protect themselves against these
bozos?
There are apparently a number of ways this is done. First, with
utility power off on the primaries the guys ground the line, (phase)
on each side of where they're working. This does two things. first it
protects them against 240v induced into a pole pig's secondary and
second, as long as Mr. Bozo's generator connects to house neutral at
some point, which it would if he's using a suicide cord etc, it should
trip out the breakers on the generator or smoke it. They also have
inductive poles they can hold near a line that will light up and sing
in the presence of primary voltage. I still wouldn't want the job.
Lenny
Allodoxaphobia
Nov 30, 2012, 4:32:37 PM11/30/12
to
On Thu, 29 Nov 2012 10:12:45 -0600, bud-- wrote:
> On 11/28/2012 11:24 AM, mike wrote:
>>
>> I asked about interlocks and was beat bloody in the newsgroups that
>> those were NOT legal under any circumstances.
>
> I have no idea what "the newsgroups" are.
I had to check your newsgroup posting headers to double check
> On 11/28/2012 11:24 AM, mike wrote:
>>
>> I asked about interlocks and was beat bloody in the newsgroups that
>> those were NOT legal under any circumstances.
>
> I have no idea what "the newsgroups" are.
that you weren't just another Google Grooper...
N_Cook
Dec 1, 2012, 4:44:31 AM12/1/12
to
klem kedidelhopper <captainvi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:6c968d99-5efc-4080...@l12g2000vbj.googlegroups.com...
++++
I don't know about electricity supply but this is what they do on UK
railways. At least like in our area with the third rail at ground level.
When the ground crews have possession of a piece of track a shorting bar is
clamped between the rails at either end of the possession. These bars are
then tested regularly at Southampton University , that they will carry 5,000
amps or whatever the rated figure is.
news:6c968d99-5efc-4080...@l12g2000vbj.googlegroups.com...
I don't know about electricity supply but this is what they do on UK
railways. At least like in our area with the third rail at ground level.
When the ground crews have possession of a piece of track a shorting bar is
clamped between the rails at either end of the possession. These bars are
then tested regularly at Southampton University , that they will carry 5,000
amps or whatever the rated figure is.
jaugu...@verizon.net
Dec 1, 2012, 8:11:37 AM12/1/12
to
On Tue, 27 Nov 2012 15:57:37 -0500, in sci.electronics.repair you wrote:
>Hi,
>
> I am planning on getting a generator incase of a long term loss of
>power. So far that has never happened to me, but I want to be prepared.
>
> If such an event would occur, I would "open" the main breaker, then
>use the generator outside in back of my house to "back feed" through
<SNIP>
>Hi,
>
> I am planning on getting a generator incase of a long term loss of
>power. So far that has never happened to me, but I want to be prepared.
>
> If such an event would occur, I would "open" the main breaker, then
>use the generator outside in back of my house to "back feed" through
UPDATE:
I removed the GFI outlet and installed a "regular" 20A outlet.
Note: Wire to that outlet is 12 gauge. Also, that outlet is on a 20A circuit
breaker. The generator I am waiting for has 20A outlets.
John
bud--
Dec 1, 2012, 11:31:01 AM12/1/12
to
referring to".
Panel cover interlocks have come up at least a couple times since Sandy
on alt.home.repair and many times before that.
I have watched this newsgroup for years - one of the more interesting
(for my interests).
mike
Dec 1, 2012, 12:24:48 PM12/1/12
to
You've just deleted a lifetime of GFI safety for that outlet and any
downstream,
possibly in code violation,
for your family and subsequent families who will live in that home.
The benefit is the possibility to maybe, someday, electrocute some
innocent person.
Don't worry mom, I've seen dad do this a hundred times...BzzzzzzT!
Only thing left to do is document it. It'll be here forever, but
it's even better if you print it out and tape it to the breaker box.
The hubris in these newsgroups is exceeded only by...well...I can't think
of anything.
Michael A. Terrell
Dec 1, 2012, 2:23:18 PM12/1/12
to
while back, and got the same replies.
jurb...@gmail.com
Dec 1, 2012, 4:17:57 PM12/1/12
to
>"possibly in code violation"
HAHAHAHAHA. Anyone who has to even read the code to know not to backfeed like that should not be allowed near screwdrivers. Some people make such a good case against universal health coverage, like Tim the toolman Taylor.
Also, why not just use extension cords ? At least it's kinda safe. You only want to power certain things anyway. You wouldn't power a jacuzzi or central AC that way, but you might want to power the furnace if it's gas. That and the fridges/deepfreezes. After that you got maybe a DSL router, some PC maybe or charge a laptop, charge the cellphones. Cordless phones. NOT the 55" Pioneer.
By the time it's all said and done, you're best off installing a separate box and rerouting what you consider critical supplies to it. You can interrupt it there just fine, and I'd bet there is a ready made product just for that. (lol)
Do it right, unless you have enough lumber in the attic for a new house in case that one burns down.
HAHAHAHAHA. Anyone who has to even read the code to know not to backfeed like that should not be allowed near screwdrivers. Some people make such a good case against universal health coverage, like Tim the toolman Taylor.
Also, why not just use extension cords ? At least it's kinda safe. You only want to power certain things anyway. You wouldn't power a jacuzzi or central AC that way, but you might want to power the furnace if it's gas. That and the fridges/deepfreezes. After that you got maybe a DSL router, some PC maybe or charge a laptop, charge the cellphones. Cordless phones. NOT the 55" Pioneer.
By the time it's all said and done, you're best off installing a separate box and rerouting what you consider critical supplies to it. You can interrupt it there just fine, and I'd bet there is a ready made product just for that. (lol)
Do it right, unless you have enough lumber in the attic for a new house in case that one burns down.
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