Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss
Oscilloscope Tektronix 2235 Short Unstable Horizontal Trace
999 views
Skip to first unread message
Lip*
Jan 18, 2012, 11:30:09 AM1/18/12
to
Worked nice for many years.
Stored vertical for more than one year, inside home, air conditioned
temperature and humidity.
Power up, after 10 minutes the horizontal trace started to present
some anomalies from the middle to the right, like a non smooth
trace.
After more 10 minutes the horizontal trace is collapsing to 50% of its
size and sometimes it goes to the center of the screen, like when
selecting X-Y at the Sec/Div selector.
Sometimes moving the time or changing the trigger mode, the trace
comes back to normal, for few seconds later return to short unstable
horizontal.
I downloaded the service manual and will look for something bad at the
horizontal section, like bad capacitors or something.
I didn't test the X-Y function yet, it would isolate the horizontal
swep oscillator, right?
It seems to be the horizontal amplitude of the scan, I don't think the
fault is at the horizontal oscillator, it seems more to be at the
horizontal amplifiers, its feeding voltage or something like that.
Any hint will be appreciated. I know electronics for long time, but
will be the first time to fix an oscilloscope.
Stored vertical for more than one year, inside home, air conditioned
temperature and humidity.
Power up, after 10 minutes the horizontal trace started to present
some anomalies from the middle to the right, like a non smooth
trace.
After more 10 minutes the horizontal trace is collapsing to 50% of its
size and sometimes it goes to the center of the screen, like when
selecting X-Y at the Sec/Div selector.
Sometimes moving the time or changing the trigger mode, the trace
comes back to normal, for few seconds later return to short unstable
horizontal.
I downloaded the service manual and will look for something bad at the
horizontal section, like bad capacitors or something.
I didn't test the X-Y function yet, it would isolate the horizontal
swep oscillator, right?
It seems to be the horizontal amplitude of the scan, I don't think the
fault is at the horizontal oscillator, it seems more to be at the
horizontal amplifiers, its feeding voltage or something like that.
Any hint will be appreciated. I know electronics for long time, but
will be the first time to fix an oscilloscope.
N_Cook
Jan 18, 2012, 11:49:42 AM1/18/12
to
Lip* <wagn...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:a19b1a3a-8fb6-4c07...@h12g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
Could be as simple (to diagnose ,not necessarily to rectify) as a switch or
board interconnect corrossion problem , try waggling/pulling/pushing them
news:a19b1a3a-8fb6-4c07...@h12g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
board interconnect corrossion problem , try waggling/pulling/pushing them
Lip*
Jan 18, 2012, 12:06:19 PM1/18/12
to
On Jan 18, 11:49 am, "N_Cook" <dive...@tcp.co.uk> wrote:
> Lip* <wagner...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:a19b1a3a-8fb6-4c07...@h12g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
>
> Could be as simple (to diagnose ,not necessarily to rectify) as a switch or
> board interconnect corrossion problem , try waggling/pulling/pushing them
Thank you for the tip.
Tonight I will open the scope and try to replug everything possible.
I was looking at the schematics, and realize the horizontal sweep
output amplifiers (Q789 and Q779, two PNP transistors) depend on
+100V. The +100V power supply is just a full wave rectifiers from a
center tap secondary (from the switching power supply), filtered by a
single 33uF (C954). If this cap is bad or going bad, hell may appear
at the horizontal sweep.
But, I remember the problem started at the right half of the sweep on
screen, while the left was working nice. When I saw it happening,
immediately suspected about the amplifier of the CRT plate that
controls the right side.
If the +100V was bad, the problem would not appear only at the right
side.
Right now, the problem appears both sides simultaneously.
At the schematics, page [6], scope points 34 and 35 is the output of
the horizontal sweep chip, respectively left and right, that will
drive the output transistors. May be I could scope (I have other
scope, a 2246) those points and see if anything different is
happening.
Of course, there is a connector from those points to the output
amplifiers... may be your are right, some bad connection in there, may
be a simple replug will fix it. This scope was stored vertically in
my room, and from time to time it was moved a little bit to the right,
left, under a desk, etc. This moving vibration (dragging the back
feet in the floor) may cause some bad contacts.
I will report any news.
Thanks again for the tip.
Wagner
> Lip* <wagner...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:a19b1a3a-8fb6-4c07...@h12g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
>
> Could be as simple (to diagnose ,not necessarily to rectify) as a switch or
> board interconnect corrossion problem , try waggling/pulling/pushing them
Tonight I will open the scope and try to replug everything possible.
I was looking at the schematics, and realize the horizontal sweep
output amplifiers (Q789 and Q779, two PNP transistors) depend on
+100V. The +100V power supply is just a full wave rectifiers from a
center tap secondary (from the switching power supply), filtered by a
single 33uF (C954). If this cap is bad or going bad, hell may appear
at the horizontal sweep.
But, I remember the problem started at the right half of the sweep on
screen, while the left was working nice. When I saw it happening,
immediately suspected about the amplifier of the CRT plate that
controls the right side.
If the +100V was bad, the problem would not appear only at the right
side.
Right now, the problem appears both sides simultaneously.
At the schematics, page [6], scope points 34 and 35 is the output of
the horizontal sweep chip, respectively left and right, that will
drive the output transistors. May be I could scope (I have other
scope, a 2246) those points and see if anything different is
happening.
Of course, there is a connector from those points to the output
amplifiers... may be your are right, some bad connection in there, may
be a simple replug will fix it. This scope was stored vertically in
my room, and from time to time it was moved a little bit to the right,
left, under a desk, etc. This moving vibration (dragging the back
feet in the floor) may cause some bad contacts.
I will report any news.
Thanks again for the tip.
Wagner
Jeff Urban
Jan 18, 2012, 12:54:06 PM1/18/12
to
If the position control will move what trace you do have to the right,
that might eliminate the output stage. Look for it on the print, in
some scopes it is a dual pot wired in llike an "X" formation and may
feed the CRT plates "directly", but I don't think Tektronix does this.
(they have good reason on an engineering level)
I would definitely check it in XY the very next thing. If it works
properly in XY you've eliminated the entire amplifier section and can
proceed directly to the oscillator. However if whatever you try to
display compresses on the right, you know it's that amp, and whether
the position control moves the flattened portion or not is the next
test. If the whole squished trace moves, it is before the position
control, if the trace squishes (love those technical terms) without
reaching the right side then it is after the position control.
If the problem is one of the output stages to the plates, the non
linear portion of the trace whould exhibit defocussing or astigmatism,
I think. It may not with certain CRT designs. To go any farther I'll
have to get the print, but this should be a good wham bam eliminate a
bunch of stuff. In other words, quichly find out what it <u>isn't</u>.
JURB
that might eliminate the output stage. Look for it on the print, in
some scopes it is a dual pot wired in llike an "X" formation and may
feed the CRT plates "directly", but I don't think Tektronix does this.
(they have good reason on an engineering level)
I would definitely check it in XY the very next thing. If it works
properly in XY you've eliminated the entire amplifier section and can
proceed directly to the oscillator. However if whatever you try to
display compresses on the right, you know it's that amp, and whether
the position control moves the flattened portion or not is the next
test. If the whole squished trace moves, it is before the position
control, if the trace squishes (love those technical terms) without
reaching the right side then it is after the position control.
If the problem is one of the output stages to the plates, the non
linear portion of the trace whould exhibit defocussing or astigmatism,
I think. It may not with certain CRT designs. To go any farther I'll
have to get the print, but this should be a good wham bam eliminate a
bunch of stuff. In other words, quichly find out what it <u>isn't</u>.
JURB
Lip*
Jan 18, 2012, 1:54:11 PM1/18/12
to
You are correct, Jeff.
If the Horizontal Position adjust (R726) can move the "squishing"
trace to the right or left, beyond the dead zone, the amplifier is
working and has enough voltage to show the trace in that region.
Perfect debugging thought. Will do it tonight.
If the XY works all over the screen, for example, a 60Hz sine
generating an almost perfect ring on screen, it eliminates voltage,
amplifier, plates, etc. Will be around the trace sweep generator, or
something like that.
I already identified all the scope points on the diagram and their
position on the board printout, so it will be easier to follow this
thing.
The only place in the diagram where I can see different circuits
(bipolar) for left or right side of the screen (half trace) is the
output of the U760, the guy who does the sweep controls, and it is
called "Horizontal Pre-amp". It has +SWP and -SWP outputs that drive
directly the output transistors. The input of U760 is not separated,
it comes from one linear ramp from Q742 that represents the whole
screen trace, feeding the U760 "A SWP IN".
So, the fact that the right half of the screen is more "damaged" and
"squishing", lead me to think about connections between those boards,
or something at the output transistors driving the right plate. As
far as I remember, the right side failing was not steady, but as if
there is a lot of noise in the right side sweep ramp.
I need to find it out... it seems easy. The first test was to make
sure +100Vdc is steady and Okay. Then the Horizontal Position knob to
make sure the "sqhished" trace can be moved to the left or to the
right of the screen. Next, the XY test, to eliminate forward or
backward circuits in the path. There is also a -5V regulator (U750)
specifically feeding the U760, and I guess this negative rail is only
used to generate the negative sweep ramp to control the output
transistors for the right plate.
It will be nice to have this 2235 back to life, even with the Tek2246
available, I always choose the 2235, it is smaller, lighter, faster to
operate and I can transport it anywhere I need it, without pulling a
muscle in my back.
Thanks, will report.
Wagner.
If the Horizontal Position adjust (R726) can move the "squishing"
trace to the right or left, beyond the dead zone, the amplifier is
working and has enough voltage to show the trace in that region.
Perfect debugging thought. Will do it tonight.
If the XY works all over the screen, for example, a 60Hz sine
generating an almost perfect ring on screen, it eliminates voltage,
amplifier, plates, etc. Will be around the trace sweep generator, or
something like that.
I already identified all the scope points on the diagram and their
position on the board printout, so it will be easier to follow this
thing.
The only place in the diagram where I can see different circuits
(bipolar) for left or right side of the screen (half trace) is the
output of the U760, the guy who does the sweep controls, and it is
called "Horizontal Pre-amp". It has +SWP and -SWP outputs that drive
directly the output transistors. The input of U760 is not separated,
it comes from one linear ramp from Q742 that represents the whole
screen trace, feeding the U760 "A SWP IN".
So, the fact that the right half of the screen is more "damaged" and
"squishing", lead me to think about connections between those boards,
or something at the output transistors driving the right plate. As
far as I remember, the right side failing was not steady, but as if
there is a lot of noise in the right side sweep ramp.
I need to find it out... it seems easy. The first test was to make
sure +100Vdc is steady and Okay. Then the Horizontal Position knob to
make sure the "sqhished" trace can be moved to the left or to the
right of the screen. Next, the XY test, to eliminate forward or
backward circuits in the path. There is also a -5V regulator (U750)
specifically feeding the U760, and I guess this negative rail is only
used to generate the negative sweep ramp to control the output
transistors for the right plate.
It will be nice to have this 2235 back to life, even with the Tek2246
available, I always choose the 2235, it is smaller, lighter, faster to
operate and I can transport it anywhere I need it, without pulling a
muscle in my back.
Thanks, will report.
Wagner.
mike
Jan 18, 2012, 3:35:38 PM1/18/12
to
On 1/18/2012 10:54 AM, Lip* wrote:
> You are correct, Jeff.
>
> If the Horizontal Position adjust (R726) can move the "squishing"
> trace to the right or left, beyond the dead zone, the amplifier is
> working and has enough voltage to show the trace in that region.
> Perfect debugging thought. Will do it tonight.
Look at a signal.
> You are correct, Jeff.
>
> If the Horizontal Position adjust (R726) can move the "squishing"
> trace to the right or left, beyond the dead zone, the amplifier is
> working and has enough voltage to show the trace in that region.
> Perfect debugging thought. Will do it tonight.
Does the trace stay the same when it squishes? Or does the trace
get truncated? That should tell you whether it's a sweep timing issue
or a gain issue.
Lip*
Jan 18, 2012, 4:56:36 PM1/18/12
to
Thanks a bunch.
Wagner
Lip*
Jan 24, 2012, 5:00:19 PM1/24/12
to
Problem Solved, and it was easier than it could be.
When the trace was intermitently shorten (squished), I tested XY, and
it was solid steady, so I was relieved to know that everything from
U760 (the sweep horizontal control chip) up to the CRT was okay, since
XY is a secondary input to this chip, along the A Sweep Input. If the
A Sweep input was shaking the screen, and the XY was not, the problem
was before that chip, and at the A Sweep circuitry.
I followed the sawtooth waveform from the horizontal "Miller Sweep"
generator, from page <4> and it was perfect. The output of the
generator being okay eliminated a bunch of problems, all the rotary
switches, etc.
Scoping probe point [31] (entry of the U760 chop) the image was
deformed. Scoping probe point [30] (generator output) it was okay.
In between both points there is R740, a 1k trimpot.
This trimpot can be seen on page <6> of the foldouts (schematics),
grid F4, it is physically located at the edge of the timing board
(A4), it controls the "gain" of the horizontal trace. The "gain" is
the adjustment of the trace width on screen, and obviously, the width
of the image. Changing the adjustment of this pot will mess with the
accuracy between the trace (image) and the acrylic marks, so you might
read a wrong period of time from a waveform.
Before the R740 the sawtooth was neat, after the trimpot, it was
deformed and shaking... hmmm... using a small screwdriver I just
rotated the trimpot to one side and another, several times, as "to
clean the trimpot contacts over the carbon film", it solved the
problem for few seconds, but always returned, until the trace
collapsed completely. Suddenly the trimpot was showing more than 2M
Ohms. As the trimpot is at the edge of the board, I was able to
replace it without disassembling anything. Used a different multiturn
1k trimpot. Now it is working nicelly.
Of course this trimpot should be adjusted with a very precise waveform
and coincide the waveform with the acrylic marks (graticule). I
adjusted using a crystal 10MHz squarewave (verified with a HP
frequency counter).
Later I opened the tiny trimpot and found that one of the end-of-
course lead was making bad contact with the carbon film metallic
termination. Unfortunately, if you grab one trimpot lead with a
pliers and turn few degrees it will loose the good contact with the
termination. Looking at the trimpot, it seems the Tektronix assembly
required the trimpot lead to be rearranjed with a pliers, to fit the
pcb holes, it then reveal the problem was "planted" at the production
line. Probably the pin broke solid connection with the termination,
years later and temperature changes increase oxidation in the bad
contact. So, rotating the trimpot adjustment back and forth will not
reveal the problem, since the bad-contact was not between the carbon
film and moving contact. It was not super easy to pinpoint the
problem, but evident when the trimpot presented 2M Ohms of
resistance.
On the same page <6>, grid F6, there is another exactly the same
trimpot, R730, 1k, for the B Sweep Gain. B sweep is when you expand
part of the actual trace. This R730 adjust the width of the B
sweep. Testing and comparing, R730 is actually also presenting some
problems, just touching it with a pen makes the image shakes and
squishes. As it is somehow stable, I let it be quiet.
Will try to find two better brand trimpots that might fit well in the
space and replace both later. In real it doesn't need to be a high
precision trimpot, it only need to be small and top adjusted. Even a
plastic body will do it. Found some replacements at Jameco for less
than $2 each.
The trimpot Tektronix p/n is 311-0635-00, the manufacturer p/n is
82P-6-2-102k, manufacturer code is 73138. It is a NonWir 1k 10%, 0.5W
round, metalic top, very small trimpot (0.25" diameter). It seems to
manufactured by Bourns, even that part/number doesn't match:
http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/3329H-1-102LF/3329H-102LF-ND/1088227
I wonder, there are several other similar trimpots all over the scope
boards... hmmm... new problems soon?
Used the opportunity to clean the interior of the scope with
compressed air. It is a nice scope returning working to the bench.
Thank you for the help.
Wagner
Orlando Florida
> > > It will be nice to have this2235back to life, even with the Tek2246
> > > available, I always choose the2235, it is smaller, lighter, faster to
When the trace was intermitently shorten (squished), I tested XY, and
it was solid steady, so I was relieved to know that everything from
U760 (the sweep horizontal control chip) up to the CRT was okay, since
XY is a secondary input to this chip, along the A Sweep Input. If the
A Sweep input was shaking the screen, and the XY was not, the problem
was before that chip, and at the A Sweep circuitry.
I followed the sawtooth waveform from the horizontal "Miller Sweep"
generator, from page <4> and it was perfect. The output of the
generator being okay eliminated a bunch of problems, all the rotary
switches, etc.
Scoping probe point [31] (entry of the U760 chop) the image was
deformed. Scoping probe point [30] (generator output) it was okay.
In between both points there is R740, a 1k trimpot.
This trimpot can be seen on page <6> of the foldouts (schematics),
grid F4, it is physically located at the edge of the timing board
(A4), it controls the "gain" of the horizontal trace. The "gain" is
the adjustment of the trace width on screen, and obviously, the width
of the image. Changing the adjustment of this pot will mess with the
accuracy between the trace (image) and the acrylic marks, so you might
read a wrong period of time from a waveform.
Before the R740 the sawtooth was neat, after the trimpot, it was
deformed and shaking... hmmm... using a small screwdriver I just
rotated the trimpot to one side and another, several times, as "to
clean the trimpot contacts over the carbon film", it solved the
problem for few seconds, but always returned, until the trace
collapsed completely. Suddenly the trimpot was showing more than 2M
Ohms. As the trimpot is at the edge of the board, I was able to
replace it without disassembling anything. Used a different multiturn
1k trimpot. Now it is working nicelly.
Of course this trimpot should be adjusted with a very precise waveform
and coincide the waveform with the acrylic marks (graticule). I
adjusted using a crystal 10MHz squarewave (verified with a HP
frequency counter).
Later I opened the tiny trimpot and found that one of the end-of-
course lead was making bad contact with the carbon film metallic
termination. Unfortunately, if you grab one trimpot lead with a
pliers and turn few degrees it will loose the good contact with the
termination. Looking at the trimpot, it seems the Tektronix assembly
required the trimpot lead to be rearranjed with a pliers, to fit the
pcb holes, it then reveal the problem was "planted" at the production
line. Probably the pin broke solid connection with the termination,
years later and temperature changes increase oxidation in the bad
contact. So, rotating the trimpot adjustment back and forth will not
reveal the problem, since the bad-contact was not between the carbon
film and moving contact. It was not super easy to pinpoint the
problem, but evident when the trimpot presented 2M Ohms of
resistance.
On the same page <6>, grid F6, there is another exactly the same
trimpot, R730, 1k, for the B Sweep Gain. B sweep is when you expand
part of the actual trace. This R730 adjust the width of the B
sweep. Testing and comparing, R730 is actually also presenting some
problems, just touching it with a pen makes the image shakes and
squishes. As it is somehow stable, I let it be quiet.
Will try to find two better brand trimpots that might fit well in the
space and replace both later. In real it doesn't need to be a high
precision trimpot, it only need to be small and top adjusted. Even a
plastic body will do it. Found some replacements at Jameco for less
than $2 each.
The trimpot Tektronix p/n is 311-0635-00, the manufacturer p/n is
82P-6-2-102k, manufacturer code is 73138. It is a NonWir 1k 10%, 0.5W
round, metalic top, very small trimpot (0.25" diameter). It seems to
manufactured by Bourns, even that part/number doesn't match:
http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/3329H-1-102LF/3329H-102LF-ND/1088227
I wonder, there are several other similar trimpots all over the scope
boards... hmmm... new problems soon?
Used the opportunity to clean the interior of the scope with
compressed air. It is a nice scope returning working to the bench.
Thank you for the help.
Wagner
Orlando Florida
> > > available, I always choose the2235, it is smaller, lighter, faster to
mike
Jan 24, 2012, 9:38:24 PM1/24/12
to
> I wonder, there are several other similar trimpots all over the scope
> boards... hmmm... new problems soon?
>
0 new messages