Hong Kong becomes a dumping ground for US e-waste, research finds

[Mr. Man-wai Chang]

Full story:
http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/health-environment/article/1977148/hong-kong-becomes-dumping-ground-us-e-waste

A two year investigation by ­Basel Action Network attached 200 GPS
trackers on broken electronic items in the US and found many ended up in
dumping grounds in the New Territories.


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[pf...@aol.com]

On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 10:42:41 AM UTC-5, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
> Full story:
> http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/health-environment/article/1977148/hong-kong-becomes-dumping-ground-us-e-waste

And this is a surprise why? China is rapidly becoming the most polluted country, local and in general, in the history of the planet. With a population of ~1,346,000,000 +/- and a need to "grow" the economy, a healthy environment is far, far back in the needs list.

Were China to consume at the same rate as the US does alone (25% of the world's total energy resources), they would use 125% of what the world produces in energy today - that is from all sources, coal, oil, nuclear, solar, wind, geothermal and more. Not to mention India.

That *we* live as we do requires that *they* live as they do. Full Stop.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[Mr. Man-wai Chang]

On 17/1/2017 1:09 AM, pf...@aol.com wrote:
> And this is a surprise why? China is rapidly becoming the most polluted country, local and in general, in the history of the planet. With a population of ~1,346,000,000 +/- and a need to "grow" the economy, a healthy environment is far, far back in the needs list.
> Were China to consume at the same rate as the US does alone (25% of the world's total energy resources), they would use 125% of what the world produces in energy today - that is from all sources, coal, oil, nuclear, solar, wind, geothermal and more. Not to mention India.

Because China was given the dirty "mission" to do dirty industry jobs
for all other food-producing nations on this planet?

Is this fair to the population there? :)

Anyway, can someone set up a factory in China that demonstrates the
world how digital waste and battery fluid could be recycled into
harmless forms? Can it be done NOW?

[John Robertson]

On 2017/01/16 9:13 AM, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
> On 17/1/2017 1:09 AM, pf...@aol.com wrote:
>> And this is a surprise why? China is rapidly becoming the most
>> polluted country, local and in general, in the history of the planet.
>> With a population of ~1,346,000,000 +/- and a need to "grow" the
>> economy, a healthy environment is far, far back in the needs list.
>> Were China to consume at the same rate as the US does alone (25% of
>> the world's total energy resources), they would use 125% of what the
>> world produces in energy today - that is from all sources, coal, oil,
>> nuclear, solar, wind, geothermal and more. Not to mention India.
>
> Because China was given the dirty "mission" to do dirty industry jobs
> for all other food-producing nations on this planet?
>
> Is this fair to the population there? :)
>
> Anyway, can someone set up a factory in China that demonstrates the
> world how digital waste and battery fluid could be recycled into
> harmless forms? Can it be done NOW?
>

The last I saw of a way to deal with this sort of pollution was to
convert the guck into plasma...

Something like this:

http://www.explainthatstuff.com/plasma-arc-recycling.html

There is hope yet for properly dealing with toxic garbage if you can
then sort the atoms into their respective elements perhaps using
electrostatic or magnetic methods?

John :-#)#


--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
(604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

[frank]

John Robertson <sp...@flippers.com> wrote:
>
> There is hope yet for properly dealing with toxic garbage if you can
> then sort the atoms into their respective elements perhaps using
> electrostatic or magnetic methods?

I'm thinking about this method since some years. It costs too much energy to
be economically feasible. Also, you really need to have completely ionized
nuclei (no electrons) to allow sorting the elements based on charge left.
Anyway, someone might have the true genial idea here and come up with
a real solution. So far it seems nobody had the right one, otherwise we
would be recycling 100% of the wastes everywhere.
There're of course political ways to deal with waste problem, but of course
the western world will never give away privileges.

F

[pf...@aol.com]

On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 12:13:14 PM UTC-5, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:

Please note the interpolations:

> Because China was given the dirty "mission" to do dirty industry jobs
> for all other food-producing nations on this planet?

No. China (the government, to be more accurate as the 'people' choose little) *chose* to be the garbage tip of the world. As life has little value either culturally or politically under the present regime, expending vast quantities of an easily obtained, completely expendable resource (people) for even small quantities of more precious commodities (gold, silver, platinum, iridium and more) is a positive outcome.

> Is this fair to the population there? :)

No form of government is fair. Nor can it be. That there is a split between the 'haves' and 'have nots' is a necessary condition of governance. The former must be threatened by the latter - and the means to do this is the Government. The condition of greatest fear for any such government is when there are insufficient "Have nots" for that pressure to be perceived. There is no necessity for 'haves' other than as an aspiration. Convenient.

> Anyway, can someone set up a factory in China that demonstrates the
> world how digital waste and battery fluid could be recycled into
> harmless forms? Can it be done NOW?

If the Chinese government saw value in making such a factory, it would happen overnight. As they do not, it will not happen. Or, until the political climate changes substantially it will not happen. Further, under the present regime, any such "Demonstration" would be nothing more than one of Potemkin's Villages - and about as effective.

A clean environment is an indication of National Will - and it requires cooperation at every level to be effective. In the 1960s, American Cities and rivers were often incredible messes with almost nothing alive in the rivers, and foul air prevalent in the cities. Finally it was *ENOUGH*. As a result of the clean-up, many industries either reduced in size, became vastly more efficient - bottom line, tens of thousands of jobs were lost, re-purposed or relocated as a result. And the results from this effort remain and are so taken-for-granted that many of us have forgotten the "Before" conditions - including our president-elect - such that they wish for the 'good old days' - which were not, really.

China reacted as follows: Jobs? We will take all the jobs you are willing to send us - and a few more. Quality? We don't need no stinking quality, we need employment for the masses. Clean air? We prefer the stink - it keeps the people in their place and reminds them of how things are 'getting better'. They can have their high-rise apartments in nearly deserted concrete jungles, with their appliances and cars and so on and so forth. BUT, they still cannot drink the water. But NOT TO MANY of them, as we need to keep that pool of willing aspirants so that the achievers take nothing for granted and continue to work without complaint....

The first, last and only job of the present Chinese Regime is to remain in power (much as here, but with a slightly different methodology). From H.L. Mencken:

The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.

And in the words of Solid Mahogany: The shortages will be divided amongst the peasants.

Democracy is possible only with great wealth, and only if that wealth is sufficiently distributed so that all may participate. China simply has neither the wealth, nor is what is there sufficiently well distributed. Here in the US, it is becoming less so - but that actually does vary from time-to-time. But, Democracy in the US is becoming more and more precarious as its real cost continues to increase.

[mike]

That fact is lost on the do-gooders who seek to equalize the standard of
living.
From the perspective of an American, they are having some success.
The American standard of living, for the masses, is headed toward that
of the third world. Good Job! Equality for all.

Products happen because people will pay whatever it takes to get what
they want.
Toxic waste happens because people won't pay to recycle that obsolete
goodie they once needed so desperately.
In a perfect world, you'd price the item to include the total life cycle
cost including recycling and environmental impact.
In the real world, that creates new opportunities for corporations,
individuals and governments to scam the system
for profit.

The solution is simple. Terminate the oldest half of the population
and feed them to the other half. Ok, maybe it's 2/3, but you get the idea.

[Michael Black]

You forgot the part where they implant the crystal in your hand, and when
it changes color, it's Lastday, you visit the carousel and maybe win a
chance at living longer, but the rest get terminated.

Michael

[pf...@aol.com]

On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 6:13:13 PM UTC-5, mike wrote:

> > That *we* live as we do requires that *they* live as they do. Full Stop.
>
> That fact is lost on the do-gooders who seek to equalize the standard of
> living.
> From the perspective of an American, they are having some success.
> The American standard of living, for the masses, is headed toward that
> of the third world. Good Job! Equality for all.

Mike:

That tinfoil hat is interfering with your thought-process - well, maybe not. Your attitude is so quintessentially 'conspiracy/mason/bilderberg' as to be illustrative of the "American Problem". Which is a terrifying combination of entitlement in an unholy mix of industrial grade stupidity and mil.spec. ignorance.

The "they" do not want to be so. They want to be the new "we". And they are working extremely hard to achieve that status. Which we, emphatically, are not. If we, as Americans, wish to retain our primacy we will have to be faster, smarter, work harder, work better, cooperate more freely, and be more focused than our competition. And that competition ranges from the Hutongs of Bejing to the back alleys of Mexico City, to the Souks of Arabia and pretty much everywhere there are those with 'fewer' and 'less' - in everything but intelligence and ambition. Of which you can be very damned sure they have 'more' and 'more'.

You need to keep in mind that the Average American:

Does not have a college education.
Does not have a passport.
Speaks one language - badly.
Has never traveled voluntarily more than 200 miles from his/her birthplace.
Has never visited a foreign country, not even Mexico or Canada.
Cannot name the Speaker of the House, even today.
Cannot name the three branches of government.
Does not believe in Evolution (42% creationism, 32% evolution, 26% no opinion).
Only 71.2% of eligible voters are registered.
Only 57.5% of registered voters voted in 2012.
Meaning that the average American eligible to vote does not vote (only 41.5% net). For 2016, that improved to just under 44%.

We are burying ourselves, with no help from those so-called "do-gooders". All the are trying to do is divide *OUR* 25% of the world-pie more equally amongst *OUR* 5% of the world's population. They are no more trying to raise the standard of living for a salvage laborer in China than you are capable of a cohesive thought. They are most certainly NOT trying to lower their own standard of living on behalf of that same laborer.

Our children are our future. And unless they are able to compete on the world stage we - collectively and severally - have none.

Lastly (also a repeat), two quotes from H.L. Mencken:

On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.

and,

The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out... without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable.

[burfordTjustice]

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 23:42:41 +0800
"Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Full story:
> http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/health-environment/article/1977148/hong-kong-becomes-dumping-ground-us-e-waste
>
> A two year investigation by ­Basel Action Network attached 200 GPS
> trackers on broken electronic items in the US and found many ended up
> in dumping grounds in the New Territories.
>
>

Send the shit to South America.

[Mr. Man-wai Chang]

On 17/1/2017 8:53 PM, burfordTjustice wrote:
>
> Send the shit to South America.
>

We all knew that every country and nation on this planet just wanna
export their waste and sewage! :)

[Mr. Man-wai Chang]

On 17/1/2017 5:44 PM, K Wills (Shill #3) wrote:
>
> It's supposed to be illegal in the U.S. to sell e-waste to
> another country. But other countries keep buying it.

Covert and dark operations, aka smuggling? :)

[pf...@aol.com]

On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 10:21:22 AM UTC-5, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:

> We all knew that every country and nation on this planet just wanna
> export their waste and sewage! :)
>
>

No, that waste and sewage is sent to where it is in demand. Or it would never get there.

This is pretty basic. And it is happening right out in the open with the full compliance of any and all relevant governmental bodies as may apply. Nothing covert, nothing dark, nothing smuggled, at least as it applies to what is under discussion.

Let me tell you a little story: Between 2002 and 2005, I managed a residential compound in Saudi Arabia. We had a school of 600, about 1,300 residents, 40,000 s.f. of professional offices, a major Consulate, two supermarkets, so on and so forth. Our daytime population was well over 2,000. We made our own water (deep wells), processed our own sewer on site and more. Because our base water was not brackish, or distilled, when we processed it through either of our two treatment plants, it was cleaner than the local municipal water (which was not bad at all). As we could not reuse it for drinking (high "YUK!" factor), we used it for irrigation. We had the greenest compound in the region, and the only full-grass soccer pitch in the province. But, what of the sludge? We chelated it for heavy metals (cheap and added phosphorus), and then contributed the sludge to local farmers (Look up Milorganite for a parallel process). The local farmers repaid us by setting up a Farmers' Market in the compound every weekend - at significant discounts to the local shops - even our own supermarkets. We also started a recycling program by polling local factories on what their feedstock needs might be - and then separating our solid waste accordingly. We saved money (literally by the ton), time and developed relationships that are still in place to this day. The rest of the Kingdom pretty much still follows the DiD (Dump-in-Desert) practice. It does not take much to recycle with care and attention.

But of a certainty, whining about it does no good and solves nothing, nor does reaching for "fairness".

[Allodoxaphobia]

After which the remainders celebrate with a feast of Soylent Green.

Jonesy

[et...@whidbey.com]

On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 07:33:48 -0800 (PST), "pf...@aol.com"
<pf...@aol.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 10:22:06 AM UTC-5, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
>> On 17/1/2017 5:44 PM, K Wills (Shill #3) wrote:
>> >
>> > It's supposed to be illegal in the U.S. to sell e-waste to
>> > another country. But other countries keep buying it.
>

>No, the US is not a signator to the Basel treaty. Nor, under the circumstances, will it be in the foreseeable future. What happens, in essence, is that US "Recyclers" haul the stuff to various locations (typically Ghana and China) and sell it more-or-less to the highest bidder dockside.
>
>This is a real problem which either Ghana or China could solve at the stroke of a pen (sign the treaty). But neither nation is interested as the downline c
The Chinese gonernment really doesn't care about most of the populace.
Today they seem to care most about making lots of money. The
regulation of polluting industries is not very well enforced. And the
regulations are pretty lax anyway. In some towns containers of e-waste
are off loaded from ships and floated or dragged or whatever onto the
beach. The waste is then sold to townsfolk who extract the goodies and
pretty much burn the rest. The Chinese culture is weird, to me at
least, the way they think about stealing intellectual property. They
seem to me to not care a whit about who made the first whatever
product, they will copy it and sell it at will. I guess they don't
consider it stealing. Right now China is the leading miner and
producer of rare earth metals. When the first rare earth magnets
started to appear here from China some were produced under license.
That didn't last long. So the market has been flooded with rare earth
materials from China to the point that the price has dropped
drastically. To prop up prices the Chinese government started to put
restrictions on how much ore could be mined and sold or processed and
then sold. This has not worked though because all those miners who are
no longer mining for some company are now working for themselves. They
are extracting ores from the same mines they used to be employed at.
Without permission. Sometimes they even use the mining equipment owned
by the mining company, including trucks used to move the ore from the
mine to the buyer. And the ore is now being sold on the black market
for much less than it was being sold for legitimately. Hmmm. China is
weird.
Eric

[Mr. Man-wai Chang]

On 18/1/2017 5:12 AM, pf...@aol.com wrote:
> Let me tell you a little story: Between 2002 and 2005, I managed a residential compound in Saudi Arabia. We had a school of 600, about 1,300 residents, 40,000 s.f. of professional offices, a major Consulate, two supermarkets, so on and so forth. Our daytime population was well over 2,000. We made our own water (deep wells), processed our own sewer on site and more. Because our base water was not brackish, or distilled, when we processed it through either of our two treatment plants, it was cleaner than the local municipal water (which was not bad at all). As we could not reuse it for drinking (high "YUK!" factor), we used it for irrigation. We had the greenest compound in the region, and the only full-grass soccer pitch in the province. But, what of the sludge? We chelated it for heavy metals (cheap and added phosphorus), and then contributed the sludge to local farmers (Look up Milorganite for a parallel process). The local farmers repaid us by setting up a Farmers' Market in the compound every weekend - at significant discounts to the local shops - even our own supermarkets. We also started a recycling program by polling local factories on what their feedstock needs might be - and then separating our solid waste accordingly. We saved money (literally by the ton), time and developed relationships that are still in place to this day. The rest of the Kingdom pretty much still follows the DiD (Dump-in-Desert) practice. It does not take much to recycle with care and attention.

Thank you sharing, Your Honor!

But your compound was not a computer factory. The recycling job is a lot
less complicated. My guess was mobile phones were imported rather than
manufactured in that little compound.

[Phoena Greene]

"K Wills (Shill #3)" <comp...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:3rpr7cpqpntsscmf1...@4ax.com...

>
> It's supposed to be illegal in the U.S. to sell e-waste to
> another country. But other countries keep buying it.
>

Well, what are we supposed to do with it. We can't keep turning e-waste into
dildos. Even a slut like Raeanne will eventually find that she has enough
dildos, one for every occasion.

[Mr. Man-wai Chang]

To quote the Bible:

Could American magicians turn all e-waste into bread? :)

[pf...@aol.com]

I see we have yet another rat in the woodpile.

[Mr. Man-wai Chang]

On 16/02/2017 5:38 AM, K Wills (Shill #3) wrote:
>>
>> To quote the Bible:
>>
>> Could American magicians turn all e-waste into bread? :)
>

> Where within the Bible can this quote be found?
> I'm going to go out on a limb and declare it's something you made
> up.

Not an exact quote. Just google "turn stone to bread". ;)

[Mr. Man-wai Chang]

On 15/02/2017 11:17 PM, pf...@aol.com wrote:
> I see we have yet another rat in the woodpile.

If electronic devices couldn't be repaired, then they had to be
recycled, so as not to poison your air, soil, seas, rivers and
underground water.

[pf...@aol.com]

On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 9:09:49 AM UTC-5, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
> On 15/02/2017 11:17 PM, pf...@aol.com wrote:
> > I see we have yet another rat in the woodpile.
>
> If electronic devices couldn't be repaired, then they had to be
> recycled, so as not to poison your air, soil, seas, rivers and
> underground water.

I think you need to acquaint yourself with the term "elsewhere pollution". When the US EPA started regulating dumping, air quality and water quality, and when individual states began to realize that they also had to control such activities within their borders, Industry reared up on its hind legs like a threatened virgin, and whined about the costs involved and how many jobs would be lost as a result.

And, it is true that some of the most polluting industries did reduce in scope and volume, with primary reference to primary commodity or commodity-based uses - coal, steel, mining in general and similar. But as a brief visit to West Virginia will show, the worst of it continues to this day without let-up - although low natural gas prices are reducing the volume.

BUT - and as it really happens: Most of the jobs actually lost are due to automation, increased efficiency and better technique. One example: Lukens Steel - now AcelorMittal - operates the longest continuously operating steel mill in the US (206 years of continuous operation). It has produced roughly the same amount of plate annually for about the last 40+ years, but gone from approximately 3,000 workers to less than 800 in that time. Automation and efficiency. It has gone from burning coal to one (1) electric arc furnace. Cleaner.

And that is only one (1) example.

One more tiny example: Glassphalt - a glass based asphalt that can use glass that would be otherwise difficult to recycle in sufficient volumes to be efficient. It is still in use, depending on local economics, stone costs and applications. Point being, that if the US had to handle its electronic waste in a non-polluting way, it would figure it out - and some prices would rise as a result. However, it need not do so as the economics around that waste create sufficient demand *elsewhere* to cover the costs of getting it there.

We are sending our pollution to the Far East, Africa and other locations both in primary production and waste. But it is not as if those destinations are not asking for it, they are actually demanding it. A country that burns lignite as a primary power source, and dumps chemical wastes in its rivers without any sort of regulation, and dislocates tens of thousands of its people for petty, short-term eyewash purposes will not be concerned with a little more cyanide or a little more tricholoethane in its soil or water, for now anyway.

And that is the way of the world. Nobody does anything *TO* a country economically, short of a shooting war, that the country does not invite or demand. And China is certainly no exception to this. Start at home and ask what home-grown forces are doing before whining about what the rest of the world is doing 'to you'.

[Mr. Man-wai Chang]

On 17/02/2017 5:27 PM, K Wills (Shill #3) wrote:
>>
>> Not an exact quote. Just google "turn stone to bread". ;)
>

> Why did you LIED and claim it was a quote when you knew it was
> not a quote?

Only one word in that line was changed. Fair enough in my opinion.

Could you turn e-waste and dates (fruit) into bread? :)

[Mr. Man-wai Chang]

On 16/02/2017 11:30 PM, pf...@aol.com wrote:
>
> And that is the way of the world. Nobody does anything *TO* a country economically, short of a shooting war, that the country does not invite or demand. And China is certainly no exception to this. Start at home and ask what home-grown forces are doing before whining about what the rest of the world is doing 'to you'.
>

Hong Kong does not have that many scientists as in USA. The world is
depending on these clever, smart, brilliant scientists to recycle
e-waste. :)

I didn't know glass has asphalt.... so it's silly to blow glasses as a
job? ;)

[pf...@aol.com]

On Friday, February 17, 2017 at 6:48:20 AM UTC-5, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:

>
> Hong Kong does not have that many scientists as in USA. The world is
> depending on these clever, smart, brilliant scientists to recycle
> e-waste. :)
>
> I didn't know glass has asphalt.... so it's silly to blow glasses as a
> job? ;)

These smart, clever, brilliant scientists will solve that problem the moment that China, Africa et.al. stop buying it. Full stop.

[bruce2...@gmail.com]

On 17/1/2017 1:09 AM, pf...@aol.com wrote:

> And this is a surprise why? China is rapidly becoming the most polluted country, local and in general, in the history of > the planet. With a population of ~1,346,000,000 +/- and a need to "grow" the economy, a healthy environment is far, far > back in the needs list.
> Were China to consume at the same rate as the US does alone (25% of the world's total energy resources), they would use
> 125% of what the world produces in energy today - that is from all sources, coal, oil, nuclear, solar, wind, geothermal > and more. Not to mention India.

Yet the further renewable energy r & d goes, providing more with less.

[bruce2...@gmail.com]

For example, 3% of sunshine in the Sahara desert is enough to power all of Europe.

[pf...@aol.com]

On Friday, February 17, 2017 at 7:57:17 AM UTC-5, bruce2...@gmail.com wrote:
> For example, 3% of sunshine in the Sahara desert is enough to power all of Europe.

Be careful what you wish for.

Today, the best solar panels at 2 square meters produce about 350 watts at high-noon. Let's be generous, and assume that this happens for all 12 hours of sunlight as every panel is on the equator. Total cost for a solar farm runs about US$2/watt, exclusive of land or storage - at utility levels. Smaller systems, or systems with substantial storage will run up to US$6/watt. All using SOTA equipment, and not race-for-the bottom junk.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_electricity_consumption

The European Union uses 2,771,000,000,000 kwh/year. To make that much power would (divided by 365 as needed each day) would require 21690802349 panels at 2 square meters each. Which would be 43,382 square km. Double that for access, cleaning, infrastructure and so forth. Comes to about 2% of the total land area of the EU.

Then we have storage for nights and bad days.

What it all comes down to is that solar power is practical under the following conditions:

a) Government Subsidies
b) Cheap land
c) Government Subsidies
d) Nearby infrastructure or consumers
e) Government Subsidies

The outside service life for a solar panel (rated to 80% of original flash rating) is about 25 years. At which point the degradation accelerates very quickly.

Now, a solar furnace using eutectic salts, THAT can cut the land area required by 80%, be easily scaled, and as a hybrid/cogen system has no storage issues. Couple a solar furnace with any sort of geothermal source or, for instance hydro-power, and you have a 100% renewable system that would cut the need for hydro-power by about 2/3 and have an indefinite service life. But, there is a lot of NIMBY involved with solar furnaces.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2045926/Solar-plant-generate-energy-night--glowing-lightbulb-tower-thats-hot-melt-salt.html

[Mr. Man-wai Chang]

On 17/02/2017 8:43 PM, bruce2...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Yet the further renewable energy r & d goes, providing more with less.

I am wondering about the POLLUTANTS that was CREATED by manufacturing
renewable energy products....

I am not a smart, clever, brilliant scientist, but I am being HONEST
about it. :)

[Mr. Man-wai Chang]

On 17/02/2017 8:57 PM, bruce2...@gmail.com wrote:
> For example, 3% of sunshine in the Sahara desert is enough to power all of Europe.

Sandstorm? Corrosion? Night time temperature? And other factors...Would
they all affect the costs?

[Allodoxaphobia]

On Fri, 17 Feb 2017 04:57:14 -0800 (PST), bruce2...@gmail.com wrote:
> For example, 3% of sunshine in the Sahara desert is enough to power all of Europe.

CITE!

[pf...@aol.com]

Easy enough. The Sahara is 3.629 million mi². Or about 9,000,000 square km.

Solar Energy (at the equator) is about 100 watts per square foot per day. Or about 600 watts (per 8-hour day) per square meter *ON AVERAGE* world wide from about 40 degrees north and 40 degrees south.

2,771,000,000,000 is the EU power consumption in KW, annually.

Each square KM contains 1,000 x 1,000 square meters (1,000,000).

Do the math. The amount of energy involved is staggering, but 3% is extremely conservative, as the actual number is a fraction of a single percent. 3% would be better defined as 'available energy with today's technology'.

[jurb...@gmail.com]

Some people do not realize that people who can actually do the math ARE the cite.

In passing though you have described why we are still addicted to fossil fuel. Nothing else is as cheap. Per watt, per horsepower, per whatever, there is good reason we fight wars over it and piss off most of the world. There is good reason it is called black gold.

We have gotten much better at burning it. A modern car idling, which they do alot because of traffic congestion, you can almost just breathe the exhaust. Almost. Feel the exhaust from a modern car, it doesn't even burn your hand. Of ocurse on acceleration the efficiency goes to hell, but if you drive like a truck driver you know how to maximize your profit on every drop of fuel. Conserve energy and so forth. I know(n) truck drivers and they have a whole different way.

And the truck analogy fits quite well, take some solar panels and try to haul a 53 foot trailer full of steel. You might do it at 20 MPH but the boss and the customer will not like that at all. And if it is perishable produce, all the much worse. Then you got reefer units running 24/7 and the longer you take to get there the more fuel they use. They ised to have red dyed fuel that did not have road use taxes built in for reefers etc. but from what I hear these days is is damn hard to find. It might be different in like Texas where drivig across the state is a carreer, but up here I have never seen it.

The real future is in reusing all this shit. We produce and produce, and it all goes in a landfill. We are getting to the point where maybe it won't be necessary to build a new smartphone every six months because eventually software updates will keep the yuppies and millenials happy enough. Then they get replaced when such people bring them to my Man cave and after it rings three times I shoot it. Actually the threat is enough to make them go put the dammn thing in their car, I used to just get a bucket of water and threaten to drown the MF, but now they float ! I do have yet to see one with a bulletproof vest.

See, when you come to my cave the idea is we are together and there is no hanging up, signiong out or whatever and we can have a real argument. Almost always civil, only a few times has it gotten out of hand. But IF, and that is a big IF, I decide to play media, and that means a clip or a song or anything, it runs and STFU. Unlike many people (whom I can't stand) I do not run background music or anything. There is the piece, and then there is peace.

Anyway, off I am again on a tangent. So to the point of the OP.

countries like China, Hong Kong and whoever DESERVE to be a dumping ground, they got our money. They had no problem taking that money witht he government subsidising their labor and flooding our market with product we could never undersell and have a decent standard of living. And it costs almost nothing to ship shit here, but try to ship something there. the coists are staggering, and these politicians call that free trade ? Well it migth be free but it certainly is not fair.

Every scvhooled Keynsian and other ones who have gotten this country into this mess shun isolationism, and at one time so did I. But after working on alll kinds of things over the years I have changed my mind. And in fucking spades people, I mean I even include people.

To avoid being called racist, Trump should stop ALL immigration to the US. that means H1B visas as well, if you can find someojhe here to do it, then we can't do it. Stiff tariffs, stiff enough to fuck with the bottom line of these importers.

You know I was born in the morning but not this morning. I used to read magazines and in said magazines was touted the biggest opportunity you'll ever know. Imports. You know you can buy this piece of junk for $2.99 and sell it for "$12.99 ? What is that, a 400 % profit ? And people at it up. I didn't get into it because I saw all the shit they had for sale as junk. I could not really sell what I would not buy. Perhaps that is one of my shortcomings. If not, it is a virtue that will never pay off.

But really what I saw was stupid little toys like stuffed animals and such, and these were to be marketed to adults ? Well I know about the beanie baby craze and I swear I still think that eBay, which was established to trade those toys, got named because someone developing the site had a kid and the kid couldn't talk and said "EBAY" trying to say beanie baby. Total speculation on my part but highly plausible.

The other problem is I learned too late to sell that which is useless. Let's just use the beanie baby thing as an example. Some of them go for big money buy people have to have them, or did when they were in vogue. They would buy them by the shelf full. Seriously, they might have 100 of these useless pieces of shit, but now think, how many refrigerators do they have ? We have two refrigerators and two deep freezes and we use them to save money on food, in fact I just found an old Polish butchery that has beef tenderooins for $13 a pound. you can't even buy those in the supermarkets anymore around here.

But people will buy toys like they're going out of style, like Jay Leno buys cars. But at least I think he knows what he is getting, and could drop into most of them and drive down the street. All a beanie baby is good for is for your kid to piss on. That kills the collaector value, and the thing has NO other value. but people will buy them ad infinitum. I know a guy, a hard worker who does alright and takes care of his family, but his ditzy olady literallly has ten grand worth of those pieces of shit. I would have put my foot down about that but he doesn't have it in him, plus he likes some sort of harmony having kids and all. but those thousands of dollars might come in handy if work gets slow, and the dumb bitch gave that no thought as she whipped out the credit card HE PAYS. She doesn't work at all.

I have had two friends come to me with prospects, one off the wall one but almost viable was the perpetual generator. Of course they are not, they use a few tricks to actually drain high powered permanent magnets and generate electricity. It is no more magic nor against the laws of physics than a dryt cell battery. however, for the useful life and generating capacity they are completely useless. Let me run you the numbers - the unit will power your house for about seven years. It costs nearly a million dollars to build. Now divied your electric bill into 84 months and see what you get, and then divide the cost of this unit into those same months and you can see why they didn't even bother to patent them.

Like everything else, noting beats those old dinosaurs. Then there are the electric car people and I have personal experience with them as well. Well I had their generator on my bench and found that to make the bubbbles, and the guy had the wrong design because it gave out H and O2 at the same time instead of separating them which made the whole thing extremely dangerous, at least for in the house, I measured the wattage required to separate this water and it was substantial. I d onot remember the exact figures but I think it was pulloing like 14 amps at like eight volts. that was on a small battery charger, I was not confortable with hooking up my big power supply in the house, which wil do like 120 VDC at about 6 amps. Probaby would have blown the place up.

Generally, liberals with no basic math skills think we can just jump into being totaly green. All buy $80,000 new electric cars and all this shit. The problem with them, which is what got Trump elected (god damn) is that their plans simply do not work. We need to get down and dirty like China, we need to take back those blue collar jobs, even if they are not the best jobs in the world. They reduce imports and increase exports.

And numbers lie. unemployment is 5 % ? My ass, we only got 100 million or so who even file taxes and out of them a bunch get EIC n shit and get back more than they paid in. Over twqo thirds of the people on this country are disabled, too old or young to work ? I find that hard to believe. But the number spinsters have a solution for that now, there are about a half dozen figures for unemployment, M5, M2 and whatnot IIRC. All a bunch of bullshit. When you got people with college degrees applying for entry level jobs flipping burger there is something wrong.

In the past, when someone got out of college, there was no online resume' and all that, and fresh out of school, realists thought that their dream jhob might not just come around today, so they took stopgap jobs to simply pay bills and gasoline, whatever. When they had a masters degree but just needed money they would apply to McDonalds but leave out their degree because with that on their applicatiuon they would not get hired because they were "overqualified". remember those days ?

Sorry to seem so off track here but really, what I am describing is one of the very big reasons that we do not have the innovators we used to have. What's more, since the business system seems to be working for business, they are not supporting innovators.

What I see in the future ? I see Trump fucking some things up, but I also see that he wants that innovation back. We could not put a Man on the moon today, we can't even get up to our satellites without buying rockets from Russia. Ours blow up. And this is progress ?

And this has nothing to do with political afffiliation, both parties fucked this place up. the main problem is we keep electing people who never worked a fucking day int heir lives, but then those are the only candidates running.

Go ahead and say I got too political, but realize I have expounded on WHY this problem will not be solved anytime soon. They have alot of money in the staus quo, and they ain't done milking it.

And that is another reason we need oil. Dead dinosaurs. Black gold. Texas tea. In fact, the US dollar is so dependent upon other countries using it as an echange medium (ad we start wars to keep that going) that I would say that we pretty much traded the gold standard for the oil standard.

Now Trump is going for these pipelines, but that is nothing new. When I was youyng my Father worked on components for a pipeline. However I believe, to appease others like that tribe, he should imposde HUGE (yuge ? lol) fines for any leak. Like a million dollars per gallon. Tell them skinflints not to make the pipes out of paper mache' or whatever they're using.

But we do need cheap oil to even start any economy back up. Liberals seem to think that enough ads will do it, if they sell enough, but we don't make anything to fucking sell ! Go try to buy American, closest you get is Maxico, and some cars made in Canada.

Try to buy USian. You can't. You can buy wheat, and that is touted as our export, that we export more food than we import, but try to live on wheat. You want bananas and apples and most other things they are imported, maybe half of them.

By tonnage we export more, but not by value. Wheat is a raw resource used to make breads and cakes n shit. You cannot live on it. Try.

Unfortuinately, in my analysis, soemone in another country is going to be the innovator in the next level of energy production. What's more, when I was young I never studied about the bios of the onnovators in the US. Later I did and found that many of them were off the boat or second generation. I figure, since they were ot stupid, that they came here for the favorable intellectual property laws, if not for the vast market which would get them rich fast eough not to worry about patents and such. But those fierce laws are nearly inpossible to enforce with an open market, this free trade both sides of the politicians sold us. It is a bad deal and that is that. And look at other countries. Ship this electronic part to Norway for me, why is it that this used part that weighs nothing and it not really fragile costs $70 to ship there but when I bought a harddrive it goe shipped altogewther for $52 and was at my door the same month in which it was manufactuerd.

Does this sound like fair trade to you ?

I did not reach this conclusion lightly, and I know what we lose and it is alot. But the only thing that can get this country back up on its feet is protectionism. We have to learn to be self sufficient again.

Exporting new energy producing gizmos that we invent and make money off of would be grteat, but no big money will go into that because they don't see an emd to the dead dinosaurs.

Sorry to be so long.

[bruce2...@gmail.com]

Allodaxaphobia wrote:
>
> CITE !

La Nación Apr 21, 2011 - “0.3% of Saharan Sun Enough To Power Europe” más que noticia es una cita histórica que data del año 2008.
-- http://blogs.lanacion.com.ar/ecologico/econoticias/un-dia-para-pensar-en-el-planeta/