Why can't electronics on new washers & dryers be tougher?
brassplyer
be some kind of IC control circuitry and from what I've seen my
suspicions about this being a likely point of failure appear to be
correct. LG warranties the motor for 10 years but the circuit board
only for 2. I'm betting it's expensive to replace too.
For as many years as this technology has been around, why can't the
control circuitry be made more bulletproof?
bob haller
cost, manufacturers use OEM ONLY boards, so when they decide a model
is obsolete there are no other parts sources.
The Daring Dufas
It would probably cost them $10.00 more per washer/dryer.
The company bean counters look at it as a cost of the
whole company output. If the manufacturer builds a million
units, it would be another ten million in production costs.
I repaired a problem with an electric clothes dryer equipped
with digital controls last week. The dryer was acting weird
and would not behave itself. It turned out to be a loose
connection at the circuit breaker. The arcing of the bad
connection was putting electrical noise on the power circuit
and the electronics and digital displays were going nuts.
TDD
Ron
There are companies who will repair washing machine modules at very
resonable prices. here in the UK one such company is QER in Workington.
http://www.qer.biz/servReps.htm
Ron(UK)
ransley
For long life look at Commercial units, they cost double but our last
set lasted 35 years , until they fell apart from rust. Nothing is made
like it used to be, but look at the prices from 10-20 yrs ago, prices
are nearly the same so corners are cut.
William Sommerwerck
conventional electro-mechanical controls. (Assuming they're still made.) My
GE washer and dryer are over 10 years old, and I expect them to last at
least another 15.
stan
That's why we are sticking with older style (still available) electro-
mechanical control appliances. Also keep around useful bits and pieces
of items that may go wrong!
Presently for example, we are using a well used dryer that cost, some
years ago, one dozen beer (then about $16 Canadian). Guy advertised
it; called him up asked him what kinda beer he liked and was there
within the hour on other side of this small city in my pickup. He and
I got it up some rather steep basement stairs (I'm in my mid 70s!) and
asking him why he was getting rid of an ostensibly good dryer he said
"The wife wanted a new dryer/washer pair"!
Got it home, downstairs by myself and plugged it in; although my
neighbour always ready to help. It's worked fine ever since, although
I did change the plastic hose to a metalized one; apparently insurance
companies have reported older plastic ones can sometimes cause fires!
The only repair need at time was to remake the electrical connection
of the cord on the back before pushing it into position. It had not,
originally been done very well and the outer shell of the rubber cord
had sprung out of the anchor/connector at the dryer.
Our 20 to 25 year old top load washer washer was rebuilt some 5+ years
ago using the tub out of a relative's washer that had transmission
problems (something to do with a bad batch of steel back then?). It
also needs a look at one contact on the timer, it occasionally does
not complete the last two-three minutes of its spin cycle. Got a spare
timer from an identical washer on hand anyway.
Finally replaced the venerable (30 years?) dish washer. It worked OK
but was really noisy and getting quite grungy, with a free one, which
needed only one minor repair (open solenoid coil on water inlet valve)
not as quiet as the most modern ones but it washes better than the one
it replaced.
We are on our third/fourth used stove; but the main point is that none
of these appliances have electronic controls and my level of
technology and spare parts allows for repairing them at low/zero cost.
New electronic control 'boards' etc.are reputed to cost in excess of
$70? One can currently get a complete used appliance for less than
that!
If the electronic control board goes faulty in a microwave appliance
it is usually necessary to scrap the whole thing.
Know what you are doing though. DC voltages of 5000 and microwave
radiation that can 'cook' human flesh and eyes are present.
Bill
If you ever go to an automobile wrecking yard, take apart something
electronic on a vehicle which has to do with safety. Like an anti-lock brake
electronic control module or an airbag monitoring module or the airbag crash
sensors. These things are built like a tank!
Then take apart something which does not have anything to do with safe
driving, and if it breaks, will not cause any safety issues. Like electric
door locks, power windows, power trunk release, etc. These are all a piece
of junk! And the switches which control these things many times will not be
sealed. This allows dust to get in and the switches stop working after a
period of time.
They want things to break, When things break, they get added revenue from
repairs. Some people will purchase a new vehicle instead of having these
things fixed. It means money for the dealers and manufacturer!
Actually I have seen many lower end products be better quality and the
higher end products have all sorts of things which are designed to break and
need service. I think they do this thinking lower cost product buyers don't
have the money for repairs, but higher end product purchasers do.
Nate Nagel
Having had to have the DME (Porsche-speak for ECM) on my 944 completely
resoldered a few years ago to allow the car to run reliably, I am amused
by your post... I guess Bosch is not the end-all be-all of reliable
electronics manufacturing.
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
Ulysses
"William Sommerwerck" <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:gvtuo8$ad8$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
I recently saw on Craig's List one Whirlpool/Kenmore direct-drive top load
washer for free that said it needed a new clutch. I saw another one for
free that said it needed a new motor. Either of these are easy repairs on a
direct-drive. If I had room to store them I would have gotten them for my
daughters (if they ever move out).
Ulysses
"brassplyer" <brass...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b8c4da7a-c487-4d94...@j32g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
I had to replace the circuit board on my RV furnace. The old one looked
like it was basically just underbuilt. The circuit paths were very narrow
and all the components were the smallest values possible. The replacement
board from a company that just makes circuit boards was much beefier plus
was a better design as far as function goes.
I don't get it because they could spend a few more bucks on the electronics
and make it more reliable and simply charge a few more bucks for the
appliance. Instead they get a bad reputation.
George
price and not value is all that matters. So manufacturers do their best
to make cheap stuff to meet low price-low value demands.
Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
>Its the "walmart syndrome" at work. People are trained to think that
>price and not value is all that matters. So manufacturers do their best
>to make cheap stuff to meet low price-low value demands.
Yep. In consumer electronics, for every dollar added to the cost of a
board, the final product ends up costing about $4 more at wholesale,
and perhaps $6 to $8 more at retail. Needless to say, keeping costs
in line is fairly important to the manufacturer. Minimal design and
component selection is epidemic everywhere. Having worked on some of
these designs in the distant past, I can assure you that the choice is
make it cheap or it won't sell. I called it the "NBC" (Nothing But
the Cheapest) effect. However, think positive. The only thing that
has prevented electronics from hitting rock bottom in quality are the
various regulatory and certification agencies, which demand a minimal
level of quality to insure the survival of the user, not the product.
Drivel: One of my friends is a rabid advocate for enforced quality in
product design. He wants minimum Federal quality standards for
consumer products along with mandatory lifetime testing, mandatory
warranties, and litigatory relief. His theory is that if the US can't
compete on the basis of price, it will need to do so on the basis of
quality. Sounds like a plan. However, he recently rebuilt and
remodeled his garage and bathroom. Instead of the highest quality
contractor, he went for the cheapest and lowest bid, with predictable
problems and over-runs. When I suggested this might be a bit
hypocritical, he got very angry claiming he couldn't afford the best.
Welcome to where theory meets reality.
--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Bob Larter
$$$
--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Barker
Well when you get right down to it, why does it need circuitry at all?
It's a motor and a heat element. They do that to make more money. How
would they make money if the damn dryer lasted 25 years like they used to?
whit3rd
wrote:
That's a good plan, but hard to implement.
When my washer last died, the problem was a riveted switch/relay
assembly that's no longer made; I was able to patch in a
relay in parallel with the defunct component, because the
schematic was printed on the box.
It wouldn't have been easy to trace the fault without the
schematic, and it would have taken a lot of remachining to
fix 'just like new'. The fault was with conventional controls that
were
mass-produced in complex assemblies.
My replacement relay was a tiny gold-plated aircraft/military
part, with four times the capacity of the original.
So, for repairability, you need
(1) conventional controls
(2) conventional (no surprises inside) components, preferably labeled
(3) documented functional blocks, so you can determine what function
failed.
JIMMIE
> "brassplyer" <brasspl...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
I used to repair similar circuit boards often replacing the parts with
beefier ,better quality parts. I worked myself out of a job. The
particular boards I was repairing were only used by a reativly few and
once I made my repairs/mods they almost never failed again. Part of
may also have been that my customers realized I wasnt actually
troublshooting the board, rather I was repacing everything on the
board with better parts. They could do that for themselves.
Jimmie
Michael A. Terrell
If you collect enough of them, your daughters will HAVE to move out!
;-)
--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!
Michael A. Terrell
Nate Nagel wrote:
>
> Having had to have the DME (Porsche-speak for ECM) on my 944 completely
> resoldered a few years ago to allow the car to run reliably, I am amused
> by your post... I guess Bosch is not the end-all be-all of reliable
> electronics manufacturing.
Are you sure they aren't using Lucas?
iws
news:1ZydnQreSco_dr_X...@earthlink.com...
|
| Nate Nagel wrote:
| >
| > Having had to have the DME (Porsche-speak for ECM) on my 944 completely
| > resoldered a few years ago to allow the car to run reliably, I am amused
| > by your post... I guess Bosch is not the end-all be-all of reliable
| > electronics manufacturing.
|
|
| Are you sure they aren't using Lucas?
|
Q: Why do the English drink warm beer?
A: They have Lucas refigerators.
AZ Nomad
Q: Why don't the British make TV sets?
A: They can't get them to leak oil.
A2: They can make anything leak oil.
Sylvia Else
> Well when you get right down to it, why does it need circuitry at all?
> It's a motor and a heat element.
Marketing. I saw a washing machine that was advertised as having
"crystal control". Presumably, it timed its wash cycles to one part in
10^9.
Sylvia.
Don Klipstein
Crystals aren't that good unless especially good and in
temperatrure-controlled ovens. I would hope for one part in 10^6 to one
part in 10^7 or so.
Meanwhile, crystal oscillator circuits are not expensive to make. Even
modules of such are easily available and cost maybe a couple bucks or so,
maybe closer to a buck in quantities of tens or hundreds of thousands.
Cheaper crystal oscillator circuits may be had for something like 50-60
cents each in quantities of tens of thousands.
The alternative for reliably having a complete cycle's timing down to
seconds out of an hour is "power line time base", costing a fraction of a
buck, probably a smaller fraction, less than cheaper crystal oscillator
options.
Cheaper still requires oscillators regulated by component tolerances -
and oscillators tend to have at least two components affecting frequency,
and finest tolerance of ones easily available at premium prices is 1%,
meaning low chance of achieving timing highly reliably better than 2% in
either direction unless either crystal or power line time base is used.
Mechanical timers use "synchronous motors", which gives "power line time
base", good enough to make electric clocks with. Many digital electric
clocks use electronic means to make use of "power line frequency time
base".
- Don Klipstein (d...@misty.com)
Sylvia Else
> Cheaper still requires oscillators regulated by component tolerances -
> and oscillators tend to have at least two components affecting frequency,
> and finest tolerance of ones easily available at premium prices is 1%,
> meaning low chance of achieving timing highly reliably better than 2% in
> either direction unless either crystal or power line time base is used.
I'd have thought getting the cycle to within 10% would be more than
adequate.
Sylvia.
Plague Boy
No, because time and Tide wait for no man.
--
PB
"I suspect you're an arrogant little pissant who grew up in the
Red Bull generation." - CJW
brassplyer
> brassplyer wrote:
> > For as many years as this technology has been around, why can't the
> > control circuitry be made more bulletproof?
>
> Well when you get right down to it, why does it need circuitry at all?
They all appear to have various bells & whistles - specific setting
for various fabrics, variable speed this, sensor something or other
that, various lights, LED time remaining readout etc. etc
In contrast, the Speed Queen front load units at the laundromat have
about 4 buttons for different temps and that's it - a mechanical
pointer gauge indicates approximately where it is in the cycle. It
might adjust the water level depending on the load size but I can't
say for sure. If there's a front loader made in a similar barebones
way for the home market I haven't seen one at Home Depot or Lowes.
You'd think there would be a market for it. I assume those commercial
units are expensive.
William Sommerwerck
>> would be more than adequate.
> No, because time and Tide wait for no man.
If the washer has an automatic detergent dispenser, the Tide needn't wait.
Eeyore
brassplyer wrote:
> I see these newer dryers and front-load washers have what I assume to
> be some kind of IC control circuitry and from what I've seen my
> suspicions about this being a likely point of failure appear to be
> correct. LG warranties the motor for 10 years but the circuit board
> only for 2. I'm betting it's expensive to replace too.
>
> For as many years as this technology has been around, why can't the
> control circuitry be made more bulletproof?
The EU has made it less bullettproof by insisting on lead-free solder. It
doesn't like vibration.
Graham
--
due to the hugely increased level of spam please make the obvious
adjustment to my email address
Ron
William Sommerwerck
Do you mean Duz?
Ron
>> I`m alergic to Tide, Daz is ok tho ;^)
>
> Do you mean Duz?
>
>
Bob Larter
Hell, you can swap daughters for appliances. ;^)
Bob Larter
> Nate Nagel wrote:
>> Having had to have the DME (Porsche-speak for ECM) on my 944 completely
>> resoldered a few years ago to allow the car to run reliably, I am amused
>> by your post... I guess Bosch is not the end-all be-all of reliable
>> electronics manufacturing.
>
>
> Are you sure they aren't using Lucas?
Lord of Darkness?
Bob Larter
Jeez. I haven't run into that one in person, but it wouldn't surprise
me. The current craze for insane amounts of megapixels in digicams with
toy lenses is a very similar problem.
Bob Larter
> In article <0068d8a4$0$24236$c3e...@news.astraweb.com>, Sylvia Else wrote:
>> Steve Barker wrote:
>>
>>> Well when you get right down to it, why does it need circuitry at all?
>>> It's a motor and a heat element.
>> Marketing. I saw a washing machine that was advertised as having
>> "crystal control". Presumably, it timed its wash cycles to one part in
>> 10^9.
>
> Crystals aren't that good unless especially good and in
> temperatrure-controlled ovens. I would hope for one part in 10^6 to one
> part in 10^7 or so.
A washing machine could be out by 20% or more without causing a problem.
The traditional synchronous motor is more than accurate enough for the
application.
Bob Larter
It would be. Washing machines used to use synchronous motors driving a
cam, which was far more accurate than necessary to do the job properly.
Bob Larter
> Sylvia Else wrote:
>> Don Klipstein wrote:
>>
>>> Cheaper still requires oscillators regulated by component
>>> tolerances - and oscillators tend to have at least two components
>>> affecting frequency, and finest tolerance of ones easily available at
>>> premium prices is 1%, meaning low chance of achieving timing highly
>>> reliably better than 2% in either direction unless either crystal or
>>> power line time base is used.
>>
>> I'd have thought getting the cycle to within 10% would be more than
>> adequate.
>>
>> Sylvia.
>
> No, because time and Tide wait for no man.
>
*groan*
Bob Larter
They are, but they last forever. Buy one, & you'll never need to buy
another one. Contrast that to the modern domestic units, where you'll be
lucky to get 3 years out of them.
AZ Nomad
>Sylvia Else wrote:
>> Steve Barker wrote:
>>
>>> Well when you get right down to it, why does it need circuitry at all?
>>> It's a motor and a heat element.
>>
>> Marketing. I saw a washing machine that was advertised as having
>> "crystal control". Presumably, it timed its wash cycles to one part in
>> 10^9.
>Jeez. I haven't run into that one in person, but it wouldn't surprise
>me. The current craze for insane amounts of megapixels in digicams with
>toy lenses is a very similar problem.
Reminds me of DVM's with 3 1/2 digit readouts and 1% accuracy. The last
digit is just noise.
Ulysses
"Jeff Liebermann" <je...@cruzio.com> wrote in message
news:a1f5255e0rei6pjht...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 31 May 2009 12:12:03 -0400, George <geo...@nospam.invalid>
> wrote:
>
> >Its the "walmart syndrome" at work. People are trained to think that
> >price and not value is all that matters. So manufacturers do their best
> >to make cheap stuff to meet low price-low value demands.
>
> Yep. In consumer electronics, for every dollar added to the cost of a
> board, the final product ends up costing about $4 more at wholesale,
> and perhaps $6 to $8 more at retail. Needless to say, keeping costs
> in line is fairly important to the manufacturer. Minimal design and
> component selection is epidemic everywhere. Having worked on some of
> these designs in the distant past, I can assure you that the choice is
> make it cheap or it won't sell. I called it the "NBC" (Nothing But
> the Cheapest) effect. However, think positive. The only thing that
> has prevented electronics from hitting rock bottom in quality are the
> various regulatory and certification agencies, which demand a minimal
> level of quality to insure the survival of the user, not the product.
>
> Drivel: One of my friends is a rabid advocate for enforced quality in
> product design. He wants minimum Federal quality standards for
> consumer products along with mandatory lifetime testing, mandatory
> warranties, and litigatory relief. His theory is that if the US can't
> compete on the basis of price, it will need to do so on the basis of
> quality. Sounds like a plan.
I have become extremely hesitant to buy any electronics any more. All of
the stuff seems to be crap that barely outlasts the warranty. For the first
time I actually paid for an extended warranty on a DVD recorder and ended up
needing it. I have to look at it now as if it costs $400 (including
extended 3 year warranty) then I have to pay $100 per year in order to have
the luxury of a DVD recorder. If it last longer than that then it's just
luck and I sure don't count on it. My daughter has a Kodak digital camera.
It lasted just past the warranty. Kodak wants more to fix it than a new one
with more features costs. Meanwhile my old Brownie, Instamatic, and other
cheap, bottom-of-the-line Kodak cameras still work fine. The Brownie is
probably over 60 years old.
However, he recently rebuilt and
> remodeled his garage and bathroom. Instead of the highest quality
> contractor, he went for the cheapest and lowest bid, with predictable
> problems and over-runs. When I suggested this might be a bit
> hypocritical, he got very angry claiming he couldn't afford the best.
> Welcome to where theory meets reality.
Your friend is a Democrat?
>
>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Ulysses
"Sylvia Else" <syl...@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:0068d8a4$0$24236$c3e...@news.astraweb.com...
> Sylvia.
Bob Larter
> I have become extremely hesitant to buy any electronics any more. All of
> the stuff seems to be crap that barely outlasts the warranty. For the first
> time I actually paid for an extended warranty on a DVD recorder and ended up
> needing it. I have to look at it now as if it costs $400 (including
> extended 3 year warranty) then I have to pay $100 per year in order to have
> the luxury of a DVD recorder. If it last longer than that then it's just
> luck and I sure don't count on it. My daughter has a Kodak digital camera.
> It lasted just past the warranty. Kodak wants more to fix it than a new one
> with more features costs. Meanwhile my old Brownie, Instamatic, and other
> cheap, bottom-of-the-line Kodak cameras still work fine. The Brownie is
> probably over 60 years old.
Buy a Canon. All three of mine[0] are well past their warranty, & are
still going strong. (Including the original batteries!)
[0] An S30 digicam, an EOS-10D & an EOS-1Dmk2.
Bob Larter
> On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 02:03:46 +1000, Bob Larter <bobby...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Sylvia Else wrote:
>>> Don Klipstein wrote:
>>>
>>>> Cheaper still requires oscillators regulated by component tolerances
>>>> - and oscillators tend to have at least two components affecting
>>>> frequency, and finest tolerance of ones easily available at premium
>>>> prices is 1%, meaning low chance of achieving timing highly reliably
>>>> better than 2% in either direction unless either crystal or power line
>>>> time base is used.
>>> I'd have thought getting the cycle to within 10% would be more than
>>> adequate.
>> It would be. Washing machines used to use synchronous motors driving a
>> cam, which was far more accurate than necessary to do the job properly.
>
> results in the appliance going to the landfill.
Sure, but it was the cam/switches that would fail, not the motor.
> Electronic controls, done properly, are far more reliable.
In theory, sure.
> Yes, there
> are some that are done properly!
I'm sure that there are, it's just that I haven't run into any.
Bob Larter
Exactly. And don't get me started on the low ohms ranges of those meters...
iws
news:h011kp$cut$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Buy it with a credit card that extends the mfgr's warranty by up to an
additional year and forget the "extended warranty."
sa...@dog.com
wrote:
>sa...@dog.com wrote:
>> On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 02:03:46 +1000, Bob Larter <bobby...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Sylvia Else wrote:
>>>> Don Klipstein wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Cheaper still requires oscillators regulated by component tolerances
>>>>> - and oscillators tend to have at least two components affecting
>>>>> frequency, and finest tolerance of ones easily available at premium
>>>>> prices is 1%, meaning low chance of achieving timing highly reliably
>>>>> better than 2% in either direction unless either crystal or power line
>>>>> time base is used.
>>>> I'd have thought getting the cycle to within 10% would be more than
>>>> adequate.
>>> It would be. Washing machines used to use synchronous motors driving a
>>> cam, which was far more accurate than necessary to do the job properly.
>>
>> Failure of mechanical timers on appliances is VERY common, and usually
>> results in the appliance going to the landfill.
>
>Sure, but it was the cam/switches that would fail, not the motor.
>
Oh, I've seen plenty with a motor that stopped. Regardless, mechanical
timers are a glaring weak spot in appliances.
>> Electronic controls, done properly, are far more reliable.
>
>In theory, sure.
>
>> Yes, there
>> are some that are done properly!
>
>I'm sure that there are, it's just that I haven't run into any.
Take a look at a Fisher & Paykel. When they designed it, they started
with a clean sheet of paper. They didn't just slap a few blinking
lights on a conventional washing machine.
JB
news:b8c4da7a-c487-4d94...@j32g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
> I see these newer dryers and front-load washers have what I assume to
> be some kind of IC control circuitry and from what I've seen my
> suspicions about this being a likely point of failure appear to be
> correct. LG warranties the motor for 10 years but the circuit board
> only for 2. I'm betting it's expensive to replace too.
>
> control circuitry be made more bulletproof?
The majority are brainwashed to need a new one every 2 years without
question. Any company that builds to last more than 2 years will be
competing with itself and others and will fail because no one will pay twice
as much for a 4 year old model. Sure it is wrong to generate so much waste,
but you go out of business first, OK?
Dave
"brassplyer" <brass...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b8c4da7a-c487-4d94...@j32g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
> control circuitry be made more bulletproof?
Hmmm, do you think companies WANT their products to last forever? Of COURSE
these circuits can be made bulletproof, but have you heard of "planned
obsolescence"? Washing machine companies want to sell washing machines.
That means people's old washing machines need to irreparably break. So,
they design an electronics board with a finite lifespan, produce a finite
number of spares at the time of the original production run, and when those
spares are gone that machine is junk. Maybe that board is repairable, but
the labor involved to fix it is huge. Maybe they've stuck a proprietary IC
or 2 on there which fails so it CAN'T be fixed no way no how.
stan
> It can be tougher!
>
> If you ever go to an automobile wrecking yard, take apart something
> electronic on a vehicle which has to do with safety. Like an anti-lock brake
> electronic control module or an airbag monitoring module or the airbag crash
> sensors. These things are built like a tank!
>
> Then take apart something which does not have anything to do with safe
> driving, and if it breaks, will not cause any safety issues. Like electric
> door locks, power windows, power trunk release, etc. These are all a piece
> of junk! And the switches which control these things many times will not be
> sealed. This allows dust to get in and the switches stop working after a
> period of time.
>
> They want things to break, When things break, they get added revenue from
> repairs. Some people will purchase a new vehicle instead of having these
> things fixed. It means money for the dealers and manufacturer!
>
> Actually I have seen many lower end products be better quality and the
> higher end products have all sorts of things which are designed to break and
> need service. I think they do this thinking lower cost product buyers don't
> have the money for repairs, but higher end product purchasers do.
Sounds like the epitaph for GMC! We have neighbours who have
persistently bought Chevrolet/GMC pickups an a couple of mid-size GMC
cars during the last 30 years we have lived in same area.
The Chevs. a) Don't last as long as our Nissans. b) Take more time/
cost for repairs. And we are not talking heavy commercial/contractor
usage of the Chevrolet products, just back and forth on paved roads to
work.
In fact our smaller Nissan/Toyota pickups were used for commercial
catering work, carrying heavy loads of dishes etc. on a weekly daily
basis in all weathers.
Since both our neighbours and ourselves have helped each other do many
of the repairs we each have had an inside look at what has worn/needed
repairs on both types of vehicles.
But our more recent (Japanese) vehicles have been assembled/
manufactured in the USA and contain more 'Made in Mexico' or 'Made in
Taiwan' parts and have not had the quality of of our earlier vehicles
made entirely in say, Japan.
Interesting how the Japanese manufacturing went from tin-pot junk in
the 1930 to the high quality of today. A relative recently bought a
nine year old Lexus; a beautiful car!
Seems to prove that cost and profit and high short term bonuses for
auto executives were not the best policy?
And when it comes to home repairs/renovations etc. would one not
expect domestic appliance to last at least as long/longer than a well
used motor vehicle? However In one mid-eastern country we bought and
used a full size US manufactured clothes dryer that was of excellent
quality and capability, better than Italian and other European made
products.
Ralph Mowery
"Dave" <dspea...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:w9cVl.29090$Db2.28757@edtnps83...
>
> "brassplyer" <brass...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:b8c4da7a-c487-4d94...@j32g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
>> For as many years as this technology has been around, why can't the
>> control circuitry be made more bulletproof?
>
> Hmmm, do you think companies WANT their products to last forever? Of
> COURSE these circuits can be made bulletproof, but have you heard of
> "planned obsolescence"? Washing machine companies want to sell washing
> machines. That means people's old washing machines need to irreparably
> break. So,
That is part of what got theAmerican car companies in trouble.
Also no one wants to pay more for a good product.
The old Comodore computer company had a replacement policy where you could
send the computer to them and they would repair it for a flat fee. They had
some unskilled labor to open up the case , throw out the electronics and
install new electronics. The new board cost them $ 50, the repair cost to
coustomers was around $ 70 to $ 80.
Cheeper to throw out the whole exectronics and replace it than the labor to
repair them.
William Sommerwerck
> you could send the computer to them and they would repair it for a flat
fee.
electronics
> and install new electronics. The new board cost them $ 50, the repair cost
> exectronics and replace it than the labor to repair them.
30 years (or so) ago, GE simply replaced defective electronics with a
refurbished unit. The unit you sent in was placed in a pile, to be repaired
at a later date. This probably worked well, if a technician worked on four
or five identical units at the same time.
The Daring Dufas
I've obtained a lot of electronic stuff for free that only
needed simple repairs. I get computer mother boards that
cost $100.00 new and all they need is a keyboard fuse that
is easy (for me) to replace. A lot of people who claim the
title "service technician" have no idea how to repair a
circuit board. Many of the problems I see with modern gear
are caused by cold solder joints on the circuit boards.
TDD
William R. Walsh
> The obvious solution to this problem is to buy laundry equipment with
> conventional electro-mechanical controls. (Assuming they're still made.)
They most certainly are. It's still quite possible to buy (at least in the
US) a washer or dryer with conventional, non-microcontroller-based controls.
Even some of these fancy-dancy front loaders are made that way:
http://greyghost.mooo.com/doingthelaundry/bigpics/newwasher.jpg (494x691,
20KB).
I've been inside it once, and the internals are what you'd expect of a
machine much older. The timer is a simple mechanical one, water level is
detected by vacuum, and while the drum motor has an electronic controller,
it looks to be well made.
How it's possible to not make the microcontroller-based controls work
reliably for years and years is beyond me. Makers of microwave ovens have
managed to do so for years. I've *never* seen a microwave oven with a dead
control panel.
William
Ralph Mowery
"The Daring Dufas" <the-dari...@stinky.net> wrote in message
news:h04498$ndv$1...@news.eternal->
> I've obtained a lot of electronic stuff for free that only
> needed simple repairs. I get computer mother boards that
> cost $100.00 new and all they need is a keyboard fuse that
> is easy (for me) to replace. A lot of people who claim the
> title "service technician" have no idea how to repair a
> circuit board. Many of the problems I see with modern gear
> are caused by cold solder joints on the circuit boards.
>
> TDD
If you are doing it for yourself and do not count your time that is fine.
If you are paying someone to repair it, you are looking at around $ 50 or
more per hour labor. It may take several hours to get everything set up, do
the repairs and test out the finished results.
I used to do some repairs and still do on equipment that does not have the
smd or other components that take special equipment to work on.
Bob Larter
I have, several times.
The Daring Dufas
repair unless you are very attached to it. Sometimes a special
piece of equipment is worth $85.00 per hour to them.
TDD
Michael A. Terrell
Bob Larter wrote:
>
> William R. Walsh wrote:
> > Hi!
> >
> >> The obvious solution to this problem is to buy laundry equipment with
> >> conventional electro-mechanical controls. (Assuming they're still made.)
> >
> > They most certainly are. It's still quite possible to buy (at least in the
> > US) a washer or dryer with conventional, non-microcontroller-based controls.
> > Even some of these fancy-dancy front loaders are made that way:
> > http://greyghost.mooo.com/doingthelaundry/bigpics/newwasher.jpg (494x691,
> > 20KB).
> >
> > I've been inside it once, and the internals are what you'd expect of a
> > machine much older. The timer is a simple mechanical one, water level is
> > detected by vacuum, and while the drum motor has an electronic controller,
> > it looks to be well made.
> >
> > How it's possible to not make the microcontroller-based controls work
> > reliably for years and years is beyond me. Makers of microwave ovens have
> > managed to do so for years. I've *never* seen a microwave oven with a dead
> > control panel.
>
> I have, several times.
Dozens of them.
--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!
Steve Barker
I've never seen a microwave quit for any reason. AND if it did, i'd get
out another $69 and buy a new one.
William R. Walsh
> > I have, several times.
> Dozens of them.
I probably should have qualified this a bit more. I wasn't saying
"this never happens", only that it seems to be rare. And I have seen
at least one where the display quit working, although the oven could
be used anyway. So I didn't count that one. :-)
I've also noticed that other parts of the oven are typically what go
bad first...things like fans, stirrer motors, relays, the odd old
tired fuse and sometimes the magnetron.
William
tra...@optonline.net
Exactly. I just tossed away a 23 year old Jenn Air microwave that had
electronics and it was still working fine. I'm not convinced the
premise that washers and dryers with electronics are inherently more
prone to failure than other units is valid. I see most people in
this group with actual problems that are in the area of switches,
motors, water level sensors, solenoid water valves, etc.
Also, if you want to go a long way to protecting ALL your appliances
and electronics, you should install a whole house surge protector.
tra...@optonline.net
> "brassplyer" <brasspl...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:b8c4da7a-c487-4d94...@j32g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
>
> > I see these newer dryers and front-load washers have what I assume to
> > be some kind of IC control circuitry and from what I've seen my
> > suspicions about this being a likely point of failure appear to be
> > correct. LG warranties the motor for 10 years but the circuit board
> > only for 2. I'm betting it's expensive to replace too.
>
> > control circuitry be made more bulletproof?
>
> like it was basically just underbuilt. The circuit paths were very narrow
> and all the components were the smallest values possible.
Looking at the size of traces or components on an electronic circuit
board is just about meaningless. Almost all of these today are
digital, which work on signals of micro amps. The only areas
carrying any current of substance, typically are driving a relay,
solenoid, etc. or part of the power supply, if that happens to be on
the board. That area of the board does need to have the proper size
trace.
>The replacement
> board from a company that just makes circuit boards was much beefier plus
> was a better design as far as function goes.
>
> I don't get it because they could spend a few more bucks on the electronics
> and make it more reliable and simply charge a few more bucks for the
> appliance. Instead they get a bad reputation.
Smitty Two
<9eb2bcb8-db5b-44e5...@r16g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>,
tra...@optonline.net wrote:
> Also, if you want to go a long way to protecting ALL your appliances
> and electronics, you should install a whole house surge protector.
Dammit. Now you've gone and poked Tom, so he'll get up from his nap, and
he'll go and poke Bud, and we'll have another 75 posts on *that* topic.
GregS
>> Michael A. Terrell wrote:
>> > Bob Larter wrote:
>> >> William R. Walsh wrote:
>> >>> Hi!
>>
>h
>> >>>> conventional electro-mechanical controls. (Assuming they're still ma=
>de.)
>> >>> They most certainly are. It's still quite possible to buy (at least i=
>n the
>> >>> US) a washer or dryer with conventional, non-microcontroller-based co=
>ntrols.
>> >>> Even some of these fancy-dancy front loaders are made that way:
>1,
>> >>> 20KB).
>>
>> >>> I've been inside it once, and the internals are what you'd expect of =
>a
>> >>> machine much older. The timer is a simple mechanical one, water level=
> is
>> >>> detected by vacuum, and while the drum motor has an electronic contro=
>ller,
>> >>> it looks to be well made.
>>
>> >>> How it's possible to not make the microcontroller-based controls work
>have
>> >>> managed to do so for years. I've *never* seen a microwave oven with a=
> dead
>> >>> control panel.
>> >> I have, several times.
>>
>>
>> I've never seen a microwave quit for any reason. =A0AND if it did, i'd ge=
>t
>> out another $69 and buy a new one.
>
>
>Exactly. I just tossed away a 23 year old Jenn Air microwave that had
>electronics and it was still working fine. I'm not convinced the
>premise that washers and dryers with electronics are inherently more
>prone to failure than other units is valid. I see most people in
>this group with actual problems that are in the area of switches,
>motors, water level sensors, solenoid water valves, etc.
>
>Also, if you want to go a long way to protecting ALL your appliances
>and electronics, you should install a whole house surge protector.
When I moved into my new old house, a supressor was installed
on the electric meter. I did not want to pay for the service and didn't.
I wonder if they took it off ?
I work on stuff all the time where spills will take
out the ecectronics. They build it that way.
Centrifuges and shaker tables in mind.
greg
Ron
> I've *never* seen a microwave oven with a dead
> control panel.
Really! I`m amazed, I`ve repaired or replaced dozens if not hundreds.
Some are an easy fix, usually a duff capacitor or switch membrane, One
very common model of oven regularly suffered from a o/c resistor in the
supply to the display, others can be sent away for refurbishment at a
reasonable price in comparsison to a new board.
Ron
GregS
I once replaced a dead panel with a mechanical timer. They are really nice though
for quick opperation and simplicity. All the orginals had them. My father loved it, allthough
it was the same as our Heathkit Microwave.
greg
Ron
Well, mechanical timers fail also, usually the coil fails in 'Crouzet
type' motor driven ones. or the microswitches go intermittent. They can
often be ressurected.
Ron(UK)
Michael A. Terrell
Steve Barker wrote:
>
> I've never seen a microwave quit for any reason. AND if it did, i'd get
> out another $69 and buy a new one.
And another piece of Chinese crap, a year later? I see a pile of
dead microwaves every time I haul my recyclables to the landfill. I
have a brand new Westinghouse microwave, still in the carton, but I
prefer the 20 year old one, because it is higher power, and cooks
better.
i repaired some microwaves, 20+ years ago, because they were worth
repairing. They used stainless steel for the interior, so you didn't get
peeling paint, and rust inside. The only bad thing was they had no
turntable, ut you could buy an all plastic windup turntable for about
$4.
Michael A. Terrell
tra...@optonline.net wrote:
> Looking at the size of traces or components on an electronic circuit
> board is just about meaningless. Almost all of these today are
> digital, which work on signals of micro amps.
Bullshit. low currents, yes, but you need to read some datasheets. I
worked at a manufacturer of top of the line telemetry equipment. Traces
that are very thin are prone to stress cracks. My specialty was the
embedded controller computer board we built in house, and they had to be
reliable. They controlled the equipment NASA uses to track their
launches, and all their satellites.
> The only areas
> carrying any current of substance, typically are driving a relay,
> solenoid, etc. or part of the power supply, if that happens to be on
> the board. That area of the board does need to have the proper size
> trace.
I'm happy that I never had to work with you. A washer or dryer is a
damp environment, with continuous vibration, while in use. Potting will
keep most of the moisture away, but that can cause SMD components to be
pulled off the board. A sealed container is better, but can add to the
vibration problems, due to the extra weight.
Mark Lloyd
My microwave is 23 years old, and everything still works. Would a new
one last that long?
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent
force for atheism ever conceived." -- Isaac Asimov
msg
I have found turntables to be ineffective if there is no RF stirrer
overhead; the turntable simply moves food in and out of a stationary
beam instead of distributing the beam around the cavity.
It's too bad that newer ovens eschew the stirrer in favor of the
cheap turntable alternative.
Michael
Michael A. Terrell
What do you expect from China? Quality, good design, or a low
price? You can't have all three.
Michael A. Terrell
You would be lucky if it lasted 23 weeks.
Smitty Two
msg <msg@_cybertheque.org_> wrote:
> I have found turntables to be ineffective if there is no RF stirrer
> overhead; the turntable simply moves food in and out of a stationary
> beam instead of distributing the beam around the cavity.
>
> It's too bad that newer ovens eschew the stirrer in favor of the
> cheap turntable alternative.
>
> Michael
Ah, interesting. How can I tell whether or not I have an RF stirrer?
William Sommerwerck
Look at the top of the oven cavity. If you see a "fan" in the hole, that's
the stirrer.
Some ovens have the output on the bottom, but that's uncommon, as far as I
know.
William R. Walsh
> i repaired some microwaves, 20+ years ago, because they were
> worth repairing. They used stainless steel for the interior, so you
> didn't get peeling paint, and rust inside.
My mother bought the world's cheapest GE microwave and it lasted for a
few months past the warranty before dying in an interesting way. The
magnetron was the only thing that would start. Light, turntable and
fan remained dark. This is a good way to cook more than the food in
the oven.
I had a look and found a relay had desoldered itself from the board.
Put it back, oven springs back to life and things are good. For about
a month or two it worked. The relay was having none of that and
decided that if it would not get out of work by leaving the board, it
would turn to coal inside instead.
I was astounded that the GE oven had a service literature packet
inside it. Not a really good one, but enough to figure it out without
excessive exploration.
I got mad and drug a 60+ pound Litton oven out of storage only to find
that it worked *perfectly*. 30 years old and it works great. Used that
for a while until I found that getting a new compatible relay for the
GE was impossible. I turned the whole mess over to Best Buy, who took
the dead oven back and let me pick another.
I chose a Panasonic Inverter based oven as a replacement. (My mother
did not like the appearance of the Litton monster. Never mind that
*she* bought it.) Despite having heard the odd bad thing here on the
group, I know people who have had these for many years. And it is a
*great* oven.
William
William Sommerwerck
heavily) for at least 10 years, with no problems.
It makes no sense to buy something cheap, then complain when it fails. It's
not true that "you get what you pay for" (expensive items can be unreliable,
cheap items good values), but if people stopped buying cheap merchandise,
companies would likely stop manufacturing it.
Bob Larter
Safety interlock switches & catches go bad all the time. My own high-end
National switch-mode uwave oven snapped a door catch while it was still
under warranty, but it was just before xmas, so I repaired it myself.
(Diassembled the door, glued the broken catch back together, cut up a
steel plate the same shape as the catch as a strengthener, & glued it to
the catch. It's been working perfectly ever since.)
The uwave at my office stops cooking every now & then. It fires back up
again if you push on the handle, so one of the uswitches is obviously a
little out of position. I haven't bothered fixing that one.
Sylvia Else
> Used that
> for a while until I found that getting a new compatible relay for the
> GE was impossible. I turned the whole mess over to Best Buy, who took
> the dead oven back and let me pick another.
Just as well. But doesn't your jurisdiction require manufacturers to
support their products. Here in Australia if I found that a manufacturer
couldn't or wouldn't supply a replacement part for an appliance that
is only just out of warranty, I could, if I were so minded, sue them for
my loss.
Sylvia.
Sylvia Else
Or just charge more for it so that it was no longer perceived as cheap.
Sylvia.
Sjouke Burry
In the laptop world, some components cost more then a new laptop....
Sylvia Else
Yes, and maybe the real problem was that the price asked for the
replacement part would make the repair uneconomic. But William said that
obtaining the part was impossible. I took that to mean that GE indicated
they were unable to supply one, not that they were asking too much for it.
Sylvia.
AZ Nomad
There's no part in a laptop that costs as much as replacing
the laptop (same model) unless perhaps you live in a place so
remote that it costs $2000 to have a screw delivered.
GregS
Around 1990 my brother had the family microwave and threw it away
for because it was larger and was in the way. It was the 20 year old
Heathkit microwave I assembled around 1970. Cost about $400, or
$2000 in todays money. I had to keep up with maintenance though, fixing a couple things.
Right now my most expensive unit is a Sears GE mocrowave/turbo oven
which run about $450, and I hope it holds up. Above the stove ventilator model.
I prefer using the powerfull Panasonic 1250 watt inverter to the 900 watt GE
most of the time. I also prefer to use my little turbo oven rather than the GE
because it also works much faster. Good things come in small packages some times.
greg
Bob Larter
If the gizmo cost less than $500, you wouldn't even have to do that, you
could just take them to the Small Claims Tribunal, & you'd probably win.
Bob Larter
Ayup. LCD panels & main boards being the two standard examples.
Bob Larter
ROTFL! Wanna bet?
Bob Larter
My ex threw away a huge, old, ultra-reliable uwave for pretty much the
same reason. I was /really/ pissed off that she hadn't at least asked me
if I wanted it.
AZ Nomad
>AZ Nomad wrote:
>> On Fri, 05 Jun 2009 04:22:41 +0200, Sjouke Burry <burrynu...@ppllaanneett.nnll> wrote:
>>> Sylvia Else wrote:
>>>> William R. Walsh wrote:
>>>>> Used that
>>>>> for a while until I found that getting a new compatible relay for the
>>>>> GE was impossible. I turned the whole mess over to Best Buy, who took
>>>>> the dead oven back and let me pick another.
>>>> Just as well. But doesn't your jurisdiction require manufacturers to
>>>> support their products. Here in Australia if I found that a manufacturer
>>>> couldn't or wouldn't supply a replacement part for an appliance that
>>>> is only just out of warranty, I could, if I were so minded, sue them for
>>>> my loss.
>>>>
>>>> Sylvia.
>>> Ah, but they would supply it, for a price, that is.
>>> In the laptop world, some components cost more then a new laptop....
>>
>> There's no part in a laptop that costs as much as replacing
>> the laptop (same model) unless perhaps you live in a place so
>> remote that it costs $2000 to have a screw delivered.
>ROTFL! Wanna bet?
Then you should have no trouble naming some parts that cost as much as replacing
the laptop.
William Sommerwerck
microwave. I put it aside when I moved to a condo (as the new kitchen had a
GE "vent hood" microwave that's given perfect service. But the Litton was
solidly made, and on those rare occsions when I've had to schlep a microwave
to a party or dinner, it's worked fine.
In fairness, the Litton and other American microwaves were probably
"overbuilt" -- the quality level was much higher than it had to be, even for
a product intended to last 20 years or more. The quality of the non-American
GE appears to be "about right".
William R. Walsh
> Yes, and maybe the real problem was that the price asked
> for the replacement part would make the repair uneconomic.
When I called GE Appliances, the people I spoke to were professional
and courteous. They really tried to help. I cannot fault them. A
control panel was the smallest part of the assembly available. Daewoo
built the oven for them, so this doesn't come as a terrible surprise.
I never did think to ask about a slight extension of the warranty, a
pro-rated repair or even something where GE might pay for the part and
I'd pay for the repair (which means "do it myself").
Having struck out with GE, I tried to see if I could find a source for
the G5G-1A relay. I didn't even get that done, so finally I turned to
OMRON themselves. Proving that I'm something of an eternal optimist, I
felt they would send/sell me *one* piece as a gesture of goodwill
toward a potential customer.
That they would not do. To top it off, by the time I got the person
who could make that decision, they were exceptionally rude and
absolutely unwilling to do anything.
But you know what? That's fine. Next time someone comes up to me and
says "oh golly, I'm designing this thing that will be mass produced
and uses a relay" I will think for a bit, smile and say "whatever you
do, don't buy the parts from OMRON". Two can play that game! :-)
In the end, I made my case to my mother, dealt with Best Buy (who were
excellent about the whole thing!) and purchased the oven I felt she
should have bought to start with. I would have considered a
workaround, but I was tired of the whole thing and never liked that
oven anyway.
William
William Sommerwerck
Last year I bought a really nice GE (ie, Thomson) DECT 6.0 telephone system.
(It works very well, and is easy to use, quite unlike a Uniden unit I'd
bought and returned. It's unusual to see a product where someone has
actually paid attention to the shape, size, layout, and grouping of the
controls.)
One of the cordless handset batteries was defective. GE would not simply
replace the battery -- I was supposed to return the entire unit! When I
asked to simply purchase the battery, I learned it cost around $20 (that's
for two AAA NiMH cells), and wasn't in stock anyway!
Circuit City treated me well, swapping out the bad battery. Of course,
Circuit City was then obliged to return a complete "defective" unit, which
is not the way things are supposed to work!
Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
>Ayup. LCD panels & main boards being the two standard examples.
I beg to differ. If you buy replacement panels from the manufacturer,
then one can easily pay as much as the laptop (for low end models
only). However, if you purchase them from numerous vendors on the web
or on eBay, the prices are typically $60-$200 depending on size,
new/used, and oddity. I've repaired many broken LCD displays this way
with few difficulties beyond ordering the wrong panel and misplacing
the screws. Same with the even cheaper LCD inverters, which are a
more common problem. Depending on difficulty, I usually add 1-2 hours
labour at $75/hr onto the bill with the panel and parts at cost.
Unless the laptop is junk, it's still economical to repair laptops.
(Note: I can't say the same for fixing failed BGA chips on laptop
motherboards).
I think what you're referring to is the relative cost of building a
computer from replacement components versus buying a package. For
entertainment, I sometimes add up the prices of *ALL* the replacement
boards, case parts, modules, and pieces that comprise a machine. I
haven't done this for perhaps 8 years, but last time I checked, I
could build an Apple G3 laptop for only 10 times the cost of a new G3
laptop. PC's aren't much better, where I vaguely recall an HP
something laptop parts collection also costing 10 times the
replacement parts cost (not including assembly and repair labour).
Long ago, I worked for a radio manufactory. We sold a $0.50
transistor for about $5.00. Most of the added cost was picking,
boxing, shipping, insurance, handling, billing, etc. I once
calculated that the cost of shipping an empty box (no contents) was
about $75. It's probably higher today. I convinced sales to only
sell small transistors in lots of 25 pieces. The delivered price was
the same as a single piece price, $5.00. Later, we were selling 100
piece parts kits to the dealers for not much more. In other words,
the parts were worthless, but the overhead is where the money was
hidden. A new LCD panel from Dell, might be worth only $150, but cost
perhaps $400 because of handing, stocking, flooring, inventory,
packaging, executive compensation package, etc.
--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
AZ Nomad
no wonder they're out of business.
AZ Nomad
>I think what you're referring to is the relative cost of building a
>computer from replacement components versus buying a package. For
>entertainment, I sometimes add up the prices of *ALL* the replacement
If you aren't restricting yourself to buying manufacteror replacement
parts, the cost of repairing a computer isn't prohibitive at all.
HP might want $500 for a motherboard replacement, but that doesn't mean that
the microatx MB can't be replaced with a non-HP board, probably of far
high quality, for $50.
If you tally up the parts that make up a computer, the total cost is about what
PC sellers charge. Only difference is that their bulk buying savings means
that they can basically toss in the OS for free. Of course, it isn't easy
finding those crappy $8 power supplies that make their way into most PCs. I
always seem to use power supplies that cost about $40 and unlike the crappy $8
ones, they won't have their fan fail in a few years, or run a 5% chance of
blowing up and taking out everything they power.
William Sommerwerck
>> Of course, Circuit City was then obliged to return a complete
>> "defective" unit, which is not the way things are supposed to work!
> No wonder they're out of business.
Circuit City is out of business for more-significant reasons than having to
pick up after a manufacturer's mess.
AZ Nomad
They're out of business because their staff was incompetant at every level
of the organization. That a low level stock jock thought it reasonable
to return a phone as defective in order to swap out a battery was
just an indication. The clerk was incompetant. The manager who trained
him was incompetant. The regional management and HR who put that manager in
his position were incompetant. etc.
William Sommerwerck
>>>> Of course, Circuit City was then obliged to return a complete
>>>> "defective" unit, which is not the way things are supposed to
>>>> work!
>>> No wonder they're out of business.
>> Circuit City is out of business for more-significant reasons than having
>> to pick up after a manufacturer's mess.
> They're out of business because their staff was incompetant at every
> level of the organization. That a low level stock jock thought it
reasonable
> to return a phone as defective in order to swap out a battery was just
> an indication. The clerk was incompetant. The manager who trained
> him was incompetant. The regional management and HR who put that
> manager in his position were incompetant. etc.
Although Circuit City had really lousy salespeople (because it fired
everyone and replaced them with lower-paid people), in this particular case
it was MANAGER who swapped out the battery. The unit had been purchased just
a few days previously, and I had the right to return it for any reason,
anyhow. He was trying to help a customer, and I was grateful. He "did the
right thing".
Michael A. Terrell
"William R. Walsh" wrote:
>
> Having struck out with GE, I tried to see if I could find a source for
> the G5G-1A relay. I didn't even get that done, so finally I turned to
> OMRON themselves. Proving that I'm something of an eternal optimist, I
> felt they would send/sell me *one* piece as a gesture of goodwill
> toward a potential customer.
<http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/1414537-relay-pwr-spst-no-16a-24vdc-g5g-1a-psdc24.html>
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You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!