Rewiring an antique Torchiere lamp.

[David Farber]

I'm rewiring an antique Torchiere lamp. It is very similar (if not
identical) to what is shown in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xifZwLZESe4

My question is: Should I replace the old cloth wiring with the same type
of wiring? I like the idea that the original cable provided another
layer of protection for the separately insulated wires. Here is a photo
of the old wire:

https://app.box.com/s/60uk1b7uy1cnq6noz223mx7zjzq84770

The wire itself contains 10 strands and I estimate it to be 20 AWG. The
cable also has to be thin enough to easily fish through the opening of
the satellite candelabra lamp tubing. The diameter of the old cable is
2.5mm and the diameter of the tubing is about 10mm.

Thanks for your replies.

--
David Farber
Los Osos, CA

[Peter W.]

A few things:

a) That ancient wire used either silk or mercerized cotton for the cloth covering - no sort of insulation or fire-proofing but strictly for appearance.
b) Given that you have a splice-box at the knuckle where the switch branches to the three arms, you might use modern cloth-covered wire (not cheap) to there, and standard 105C zip from the switch to the sockets.
c) Do make sure that the cord you use is "Listed" if only for insurance purposes.
d) I use a length of ball-chain for fishing in old multi-head lamps and chandeliers. It makes the bends easily and will slide of its own weight for insertion.

There is no need for more elaborate means.

Best of luck with it.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[Rheilly Phoull]

Meh, the wiring is unseen just use some modern silicon wire rated for
the application.

[David Farber]

Hi Peter,

Just so I understand what you're trying to tell me, I see the wiring as
described in 4 parts:

Part 1

The main power cord that plugs into the wall and feeds up to the top of
the lamp. Would that be standard 18/2 lamp cord?

Part 2

From there, you have all the hot wires tied together which feed:

The Mogul light socket on top

The rotary 3-way switch which operates the three candelabra bulbs.
By the way, the rotary 3-way switch has its own built-in wiring.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00004YULQ

I forgot to mention an add-on bulb (NOT added on by me) which is taped
to the base of the lamp. Picture is here,
https://app.box.com/s/l13ofutlb4phlu3o9fag1jd4nqao7820
Accompanying that add-on bulb is a SPST rotary switch which was placed
next to the 3-way candelabra switch at the top of the lamp.

Am I correct in saying that all these branched hot wires will be the
same kind of wiring? Will that particular wire be the modern cloth
wiring or some other type?

Part 3

Next are the two output wires of the 3-way rotary switch that tie
together with the candelabra socket wiring.

The wire from the rotary SPST switch which feeds the bulb at the base of
the lamp.

Part 4

All the neutral wires.

Thanks for helping me sort all this out.

One last mention, the center light pole which normally would have one
cord going through it will need an extra cord to supply power back to
the add-on lamp. The original extra wire running through the pole (which
is the same type of wiring that was feeding the candelabra sockets) is
the same cord I photographed earlier. I have my doubts whether or not
that is UL approved wire.
https://app.box.com/s/60uk1b7uy1cnq6noz223mx7zjzq84770

[David Farber]

Thank you for your input. :-)

[Peter W.]

OK - a bit more complicated, then.

First piece of advice would be to lose the extra socket and lamp at the bottom of the fixture. However, if you must use it (and there is no really safe way to do so), I suggest that you get some epoxy putty and fill in the gnawed area at the base (duplicate the grooves if you wish), smooth out the socket (looks like cardboard?) and then use brass paint or some such to make it look 'of a piece'. Either way, you can fill in the gnawed area and duplicate the grooves even if you lose the socket.

Then you need to separate your wiring efforts into two categories: That which is pretty - from the wall socket to the lamp base, and that which is utilitarian. The pretty wire should be the cloth-covered wire of you choice such as (From Amazon): https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81UjoxggqPL._AC_SL1500_.jpg

The other wire (also listed, and from Amazon): https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71CqHJCmX4L._AC_SL1500_.jpg could be this stuff, good for 600V. and which will allow will allow you to color-code if you wish. Going back down to the lower socket (again, not recommended), you could twist a pair from this same kit.

When I do this kind of work (we are on our third pre-1900 house), I use ball-chain for fishing, and I tend to use heat-shrink tubing over the wire-nuts to make sure there is no change of them coming loose. I will also tin the leads that connect to the various sockets so that there are no stray strands.

Best of luck with it!

[David Farber]

Hi Peter,

I would definitely like to lose that socket at the bottom of the fixture
but when I asked the owner about that possibility, I was told that was
the specific reason the lamp was purchased. I'm going to play it safe
here and tell him that no matter how pretty it looks, it's not safe. Period.

Regarding this Amazon link:

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71CqHJCmX4L._AC_SL1500_.jpg

I see the image but I cannot find the webpage that links to that product.

Thanks for your reply.

[Peter W.]

https://www.amazon.com/Electronics-different-Insulated-Temperature-Resistance/dp/B07G2GLKMP/ref=sr_1_18?dchild=1&keywords=UL+listed+hook-up+wire&qid=1623865445&sr=8-18

FYI

[David Farber]

On 6/16/2021 10:45 AM, Peter W. wrote:
> https://www.amazon.com/Electronics-different-Insulated-Temperature-Resistance/dp/B07G2GLKMP/ref=sr_1_18?dchild=1&keywords=UL+listed+hook-up+wire&qid=1623865445&sr=8-18
>
> FYI
>
Very nice. Thank you!

[Michael Trew]

Very nice! I have almost the same one in use in my front room daily.
It's on a switched outlet. It uses the larger mogul base bulb in the
center, I eventually put an adapter in to use a standard medium base
bulb. I'll be sure to follow this, because the original wire cored is
cracked up and rotten... I honestly shouldn't still have it plugged in
as is.

[Arie de Muynck]

On 2021-06-16 18:51, Peter W. wrote:
> When I do this kind of work (we are on our third pre-1900 house), I use ball-chain for fishing, and I tend to use heat-shrink tubing over the wire-nuts to make sure there is no change of them coming loose. I will also tin the leads that connect to the various sockets so that there are no stray strands.

Do NOT tin the leads. The tin will flow under pressure, making the
contact unreliable. A perfect starter for sparking and fire...

Arie

[Ron D.]

I have a couple of 1950's lamps in use. They only have the center mogal-based bulb and they are still availabe at the hardware store down the street. It has the modern zip cord, but a non-polarized plug.

Generally, the stuff used is 18 AWG appliance wire. Teflon insulated insn;t generally used, but probably could be.

My "Plans" are to convert this lamp to a dimmable 6000 lumen mogal base LED lamp and be able to convert back by changing the external "pigtail" that will use a CPC connector.

This currently gets way too much use as it illuminates a hospital bed.

Currently, there is a 300W Credenza dimmer with a "LOCATOR" LED on it. That LED follows the lamp intensity inversely.

I have obtained the bulb, a mogal base extender, the dimming module (sold with the bulb) and a bunch of other stuff.

The credensa dimmer consists of a triac dimmer circuit, a LED, a slide pot and a switch. It will be canibalized such that the potentiometer exits with one wire through the switch. The other 3 leads will go to 3 pin bi-color LED. The potentiometer will got to a PR Electronics module where I will use the alarm setpoints to turn on power to the dimmer. I need to get the right signals out. the 0-10V output has very little current output.
and I have to dim the LED reverse acting

The initial design will use one color. With an add-on option the PR module can be controlled with RS-485, thus the potential use of the other color and the "potential" for home automation. Maybe, something like use another color when the lamp is controlled by the home automation system and just moving the slider changes it back to "manual".

I think it would be "neat" if the lamp responded to touch. e..g. if an unsuspecting sole reached for the switch near the lamp, the lamp would turn on. Maybe three levels of on. This is wishful thinking.

[Andy Burns]

David Farber wrote:

> Regarding this Amazon link:
>
> https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71CqHJCmX4L._AC_SL1500_.jpg
>
> I see the image but I cannot find the webpage that links to that product.

e.g.

<https://amazon.co.uk/TUOFENG/dp/B07G72FZCR>

[Peter W.]

> Do NOT tin the leads. The tin will flow under pressure, making the

If one uses the correct solder (37/63), that does not happen. Further, those clamps should be TIGHT!

[Arie de Muynck]

Some background info on my statement:

https://cdn.thomasnet.com/ccp/00142951/263810.pdf

https://reprap.org/wiki/Wire_termination_for_screw_terminals

https://www.eptac.com/ask/when-to-tin-and-not-tin-wires/
IPC-A-610 Rev E, page 4-10, Section 4.1.4.2, states under defect
conditions, 6th bullet down, “Stranded wire is tinned (not shown)” this
is a defective condition for any wire going under any threaded fastener.
IPC/WHMA-A-620, page 4-10, Section 4.4, same criteria as J-STD-001 as above.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screw_terminal
While wires may be crimped, they should not be heavily tinned with
solder prior to installation in a screw terminal, since the soft metal
will cold flow, resulting in a loose connection and possible fire
hazard. Screw connectors sometimes come loose if not done up tightly
enough at fitting time. Verifying adequate tightening torque requires
calibrated installation tools and proper training. In the UK, all screw
connectors on fixed mains installations are required to be accessible
for servicing, for this reason.

Also, the technique is rejected by European certification organizations
for mains connections. Which I fully support, after finding and
repairing lots of bad connections that were done this way.

A modern workaround is using spring clamping instead of screw clamping.
No problem with cold flow there. And yes, THEN the tinning of stranded
wire is even preferred by me...

Arie

[Peter W.]

> Some background info on my statement:

Thank you for that, and as a routine, I do not tin wires when connecting to circuit boards with screw-down connectors. But I think that you are missing the context here.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/8133OQYBg9L._AC_SL1500_.jpg

This is a device similar to those in question here. Often they are in close quarters with tight clearances. The purpose of tinning fine-stranded wiring is to reduce the possibility of a stray strand getting where it should not. The proper method is to tin the wire to 'tame' the strands, then treat it as if it is a solid wire by crimping it around the screw, then screwing it down - TIGHT. This is not for corrosion or even for longevity (but the latter is a fortunate by-result).

As I understand it, and if you are in Europe, Wire Nuts are not permitted, and these sorts of things are used routinely in household wiring:

https://cpc.farnell.com/hellermanntyton/cs15nt/terminal-block-polyethylene-16a/dp/CB15474?CMP=KNC-GUK-CPC-GEN-SHOPPING-HELLERMANNTYTON-CB15474&gross_price=true&mckv=swQRURloc_dc%7Cpcrid%7C72935675177%7Ckword%7C%7Cmatch%7C%7Cplid%7C%7Cpid%7CCB15474%7C&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIg5WglMbk1wIVzLztCh05NQvYEAQYASABEgLGEfD_BwE (Chock-Block connectors).

They are not NEC approved here as free connectors (a wire nut is a 'free' connector as it is not screwed down), nor would I tin wires into such were they an option (and screwed down).

[David Farber]

Peter and Arie,

Earlier Peter linked to this Amazon product:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07G2GLKMP/

In the product's description it says:

"High-quality *tinned* copper inner core, can maintained copper wire for
a long time does not oxidize .protecting them from corrosion and making
it easier to solder."

Does this tinned copper wire have any relevance to your discussion about
tinning wires?

Thanks for your reply.

[Arie de Muijnck]

On 2021-06-17 16:54, Peter W. wrote:
>> Some background info on my statement:
>
> Thank you for that, and as a routine, I do not tin wires when connecting to circuit boards with screw-down connectors. But I think that you are missing the context here.
>
> https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/8133OQYBg9L._AC_SL1500_.jpg
>
> This is a device similar to those in question here. Often they are in close quarters with tight clearances. The purpose of tinning fine-stranded wiring is to reduce the possibility of a stray strand getting where it should not. The proper method is to tin the wire to 'tame' the strands, then treat it as if it is a solid wire by crimping it around the screw, then screwing it down - TIGHT. This is not for corrosion or even for longevity (but the latter is a fortunate by-result).

I see your problem. No way to use stranded wire there without at least
tinning the tip. In my youth (I'm 68 now) small eyelets were used for
such problems, wire twisted around it, then the eyelet pressed close. I
cannot even find an example picture any more...

I'm in Europe (Netherlands). Your construction here still appears in
wall outlets and wall switches, but is only allowed for solid wire. In
equipment, like terminal blocks on switching power supplies, I always
use a crimp terminal on the wire.
All mains connected stranded wire must be terminated in a bus with a
screw, like in the terminal block you mention:

> As I understand it, and if you are in Europe, Wire Nuts are not permitted, and these sorts of things are used routinely in household wiring:
>
> https://cpc.farnell.com/hellermanntyton/cs15nt/terminal-block-polyethylene-16a/dp/CB15474?CMP=KNC-GUK-CPC-GEN-SHOPPING-HELLERMANNTYTON-CB15474&gross_price=true&mckv=swQRURloc_dc%7Cpcrid%7C72935675177%7Ckword%7C%7Cmatch%7C%7Cplid%7C%7Cpid%7CCB15474%7C&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIg5WglMbk1wIVzLztCh05NQvYEAQYASABEgLGEfD_BwE (Chock-Block connectors).
>
> They are not NEC approved here as free connectors (a wire nut is a 'free' connector as it is not screwed down), nor would I tin wires into such were they an option (and screwed down).

They are officially only allowed here between the solid wires sticking
from the pipe in the ceiling, and the stranded wires going into the
lamp. Not allowed for solid to solid mains wiring (or any other mains
connected use).
In Dutch, a chandelier is a 'kroonluchter' hence the name here is
'kroonsteentje' (chandelier stone, since it used to be made from porcelain).

Thanks for the insights!

Arie

[Arie de Muijnck]

On 2021-06-17 17:32, Arie de Muijnck wrote:

> I see your problem. No way to use stranded wire there without at least
> tinning the tip. In my youth (I'm 68 now) small eyelets were used for
> such problems, wire twisted around it, then the eyelet pressed close. I
> cannot even find an example picture any more...

Found something that looks like it, but not for electricity of course:
https://www.hornbach.nl/shop/Oogtang-incl-oogjes/8067143/artikel.html

The inner diameter used to be 3.2mm, fit for our usual M3 bolts.

Arie

[Peter W.]

> Does this tinned copper wire have any relevance to your discussion about
> tinning wires?

David - the discussion with Arie is peripheral to the pointed wire material. That material is factory-plated with a very tin tin coating. He and I are generally in agreement for electronics work, but in this case, we are dealing with practicalities and materials that are not specific to his concerns. "Tinning" in your context means using a small amount of solder at the ends of the wire to prevent loose strands. Then, crimp the wire around the screw before tightening - hard. 37/63 solder (eutectic) has no plastic state, so you do not have to be concerned about crumbling solder if the wires move during the cooling period.

I have done a lot of these over time, including one 16-lamp (candelabra-base) crystal chandelier in our present house. That took nearly 12 hours of work to get just right - and including color-coding and removing many of the crystals for safe-keeping. I learned the ball-chain trick from a restorer back in the 1980s when he showed me how he did it. Did you know that one can still get the 'fake candle-wax' socket covers? and in multiple styles? https://i.etsystatic.com/13547198/r/il/a525df/1815436283/il_1140xN.1815436283_78js.jpg One more thing on that particular chandelier ( I wish I had a picture, but I am at work). It is a sad story, but when we purchased our house in 2008, it had been empty for 2 years as the previous occupants lost it to foreclosure. They had sold off all the appliances, some of the vintage hardware and other strange things, but not the three fairly massive chandeliers. When we had our insurance inspection, the inspector put a rider on our policy calling them out as we had the 'full-in-kind' restoration option. I won't state the imputed value, other than I thought it was absurd at the time. Not so much now.

[David Farber]

On 6/17/2021 9:16 AM, Peter W. wrote:
>

The solder I have is Ersin, multicore, 60/40 which is at least 15 years
old. Is not using solder better than using the wrong solder?

Afterthought: I just found this discussion:
https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/do-you-use-60-40-solder-or-63-37-solder-and-why.1982988/

At this rate, I'll never get this lamp fixed! LOL

[Peter W.]

> The solder I have is Ersin, multicore, 60/40 which is at least 15 years
> old. Is not using solder better than using the wrong solder?
>
> Afterthought: I just found this discussion:
> https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/do-you-use-60-40-solder-or-63-37-solder-and-why.1982988/

If you are careful, 60/40 is OK - point being that you are not using enough on the wire end to have to worry about it moving during the plastic stage.

[David Farber]

Hi Peter,

Thanks so much for all the details you've provided. I've ordered the
parts and should have it all put back together by the end of next week.

[David Farber]

Hi Peter,

The parts have arrived. I have a question about the base paper
insulators I ordered. I should have asked you before ordering.

This is what I ordered:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/123481629788 (the item's description says it's
1 5/8" tall but I measured it as 1 17/32" tall which is 3/32" shorter).

Is this the item that I should have ordered?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/123577744732
It's supposedly 1/4" taller plus it has a notched cutout which I think
will fit the metal tab that extends from the support structure.

Here are some pictures that show the results of my unsuccessful attempts
at fitting the insulators onto the sockets.
https://app.box.com/s/imvpm6485l8t61td6v2v6dgojcgoz8ub

Thanks for your reply.

[Peter W.]

The short answer is: What you ordered is for a fixture with a switch in it, either a turn or pushbutton. So, you are correct, you should have ordered the second type with the bayonete-style attachment.

Good luck with it - looks like you are getting there.

[David Farber]

I had thought that when an insulator was branded as "keyless," it meant
that it was designed for socket without a switch. I should have used
some common sense when I initially looked at the photograph. Now I
wonder, by what definition could this insulator be described as"keyless?"

[Peter W.]

> I had thought that when an insulator was branded as "keyless," it meant
> that it was designed for socket without a switch.

"Keyless" means the socket itself, not the insulator. The insulator will depend on how the socket is used whether there is a bayonet 'key' or not.

Not everyone has worked around this stuff for nearly 50 years, so it does not come naturally for them.

[David Farber]

Agreed, "keyless" describes the socket but certainly if you have a
keyless socket you need to use a matching keyless insulator, right?

[Peter W.]

I need a glove for my right hand. OK....

Purpose? Small, large? Garden, chain-mail?