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CFL ballast design, and using dead lamps for repair
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P E Schoen
Jan 21, 2013, 4:04:24 AM1/21/13
to
I have a desk lamp, with a magnifier and a 12W T4 circline fluorescent bulb,
that I use constantly for working on PCBs and electronics projects in
general. I bought it several years ago and recently it started flickering
and then died. I replaced the bulb, but still no joy, and after replacing
the blown fuse and two damaged transistors, I found that the little
transformer had an open winding.
So, I thought, a 60W equivalent CFL is actually about 11-13 watts, and the
little circuit in them should work. I had a couple of broken or dead bulbs
ready for recycling, so I opened the bases, cut the leads, and extracted the
PCBs. After a few unsuccessful tries, I was able to get it to work and now
my lamp is once again operational.
I found some schematics of the CFL driver boards here:
http://www.pavouk.org/hw/lamp/en_index.html
Some of those circuits matched what I had almost exactly. It was a little
difficult to follow the explanation of how they operate, but what was
confusing is the four pins shown on the lamp itself, which is also how the
bulbs are made. I assume they are the heaters that are usually activated
with a starter, but I did not find any continuity on those pins. The desk
lamp only had one wire to each of two pins on the circline bulb, but in the
CFLs all four wires were connected to different points on the PCB. It would
only work when I shorted the connections that would have gone to the
heaters, and it seems to work very well. It starts to light at 50 VAC and
reaches full brightness at 100-120V, at which it draws about 100mA. That's
close enough to 12 watts for me!
Here's a little clip of my repair project:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7QJQBSBRCw&feature=youtu.be
This is good to know. Those little circuits in each CFL have a lot of good
components, including a DIAC and high voltage transistors, and it's probably
possible to use them to drive small fluorescent lamps for DIY projects or
repair. I doubt they could be used for the 40W tubes, but a driver from a
100W CFL should work on a 20W tube such as are in many desk lamps and small
kitchen fixtures.
Does anyone know if there is any problem with this?
Thanks,
Paul
PS: GO RAVENS!!!!!
that I use constantly for working on PCBs and electronics projects in
general. I bought it several years ago and recently it started flickering
and then died. I replaced the bulb, but still no joy, and after replacing
the blown fuse and two damaged transistors, I found that the little
transformer had an open winding.
So, I thought, a 60W equivalent CFL is actually about 11-13 watts, and the
little circuit in them should work. I had a couple of broken or dead bulbs
ready for recycling, so I opened the bases, cut the leads, and extracted the
PCBs. After a few unsuccessful tries, I was able to get it to work and now
my lamp is once again operational.
I found some schematics of the CFL driver boards here:
http://www.pavouk.org/hw/lamp/en_index.html
Some of those circuits matched what I had almost exactly. It was a little
difficult to follow the explanation of how they operate, but what was
confusing is the four pins shown on the lamp itself, which is also how the
bulbs are made. I assume they are the heaters that are usually activated
with a starter, but I did not find any continuity on those pins. The desk
lamp only had one wire to each of two pins on the circline bulb, but in the
CFLs all four wires were connected to different points on the PCB. It would
only work when I shorted the connections that would have gone to the
heaters, and it seems to work very well. It starts to light at 50 VAC and
reaches full brightness at 100-120V, at which it draws about 100mA. That's
close enough to 12 watts for me!
Here's a little clip of my repair project:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7QJQBSBRCw&feature=youtu.be
This is good to know. Those little circuits in each CFL have a lot of good
components, including a DIAC and high voltage transistors, and it's probably
possible to use them to drive small fluorescent lamps for DIY projects or
repair. I doubt they could be used for the 40W tubes, but a driver from a
100W CFL should work on a 20W tube such as are in many desk lamps and small
kitchen fixtures.
Does anyone know if there is any problem with this?
Thanks,
Paul
PS: GO RAVENS!!!!!
N_Cook
Jan 21, 2013, 5:19:55 AM1/21/13
to
P E Schoen <pa...@peschoen.com> wrote in message
news:kdj0bd$6ut$1...@dont-email.me...
+++++++++
so the original lamp was conventional ballast and 2 pin bimetal switch
starter ?
news:kdj0bd$6ut$1...@dont-email.me...
so the original lamp was conventional ballast and 2 pin bimetal switch
starter ?
Tim Williams
Jan 21, 2013, 8:43:50 AM1/21/13
to
Besides the electrolytic and bulb, the starter cap is very failure-prone.
In circuits where the filaments are used, it's in series with the output,
forming a series resonant tank; the low resistance of the cold filaments
draws lots of current, starting the tube quickly. When the tube starts
up, it appears in parallel with the cap, transforming the circuit into a
good old series inductance ballast.
The kind with only two pins skips the heating step and allows the tank
voltage and current to resonate even higher, until the tube breaks down
cold-cathode style. Once ignited, ion bombardment keeps the filaments
warm, keeping the reignition and operating voltages normal.
High voltage film caps are big and expensive, so understandably, they
don't like to use them very much. Often, a poor green (polyester) type is
found, which isn't even green anymore, but black from the abuse. Others
may be burned through, having experienced too many starts (too much peak
voltage) that self-healing has burned away most of the capacitance. The
circuit then either tries oscillating too high (burning itself from
switching loss) or oscillates lazily or latches (resonance no longer
strong enough to draw enough current to provide sufficient feedback).
Tim
--
Deep Friar: a very philosophical monk.
Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com
In circuits where the filaments are used, it's in series with the output,
forming a series resonant tank; the low resistance of the cold filaments
draws lots of current, starting the tube quickly. When the tube starts
up, it appears in parallel with the cap, transforming the circuit into a
good old series inductance ballast.
The kind with only two pins skips the heating step and allows the tank
voltage and current to resonate even higher, until the tube breaks down
cold-cathode style. Once ignited, ion bombardment keeps the filaments
warm, keeping the reignition and operating voltages normal.
High voltage film caps are big and expensive, so understandably, they
don't like to use them very much. Often, a poor green (polyester) type is
found, which isn't even green anymore, but black from the abuse. Others
may be burned through, having experienced too many starts (too much peak
voltage) that self-healing has burned away most of the capacitance. The
circuit then either tries oscillating too high (burning itself from
switching loss) or oscillates lazily or latches (resonance no longer
strong enough to draw enough current to provide sufficient feedback).
Tim
--
Deep Friar: a very philosophical monk.
Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com
John Larkin
Jan 21, 2013, 11:07:04 AM1/21/13
to
mercury-filled toob with LEDs.
PS: GO NINERS!!!!!!!!!
--
John Larkin Highland Technology Inc
www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com
Precision electronic instrumentation
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators
Custom timing and laser controllers
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links
VME analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer
Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators
Ian Field
Jan 21, 2013, 3:11:26 PM1/21/13
to
"P E Schoen" <pa...@peschoen.com> wrote in message
news:kdj0bd$6ut$1...@dont-email.me...
using a blocking oscillator inverter to charge a 47u electro. Everytime it
reaches about 32V, you have the diac dump the charge into the LED bank of a
cheap & nasty LED worklight.
My project was published in Elektor a year or two ago.
petrus bitbyter
Jan 21, 2013, 3:46:29 PM1/21/13
to
"P E Schoen" <pa...@peschoen.com> schreef in bericht
news:kdj0bd$6ut$1...@dont-email.me...
start it with a relative high voltage puls. But heating first is not
necessary. The lamp will ignite if only the voltage of the ignition pulse is
high enough. Nevertheless, the heaters cannot be omitted as they provide the
electrons required for the current through the tube. Especially low power
TLs are sometimes ignited this way. When used with low frequencies i.e. 50Hz
or 60Hz, it is said to shorten the lifetime of the tube. The circuit I ever
found in a handheld 8W TL lamp did work but gave a flickering light.
I also use a magnifier lamp but a bigger one containing a 22W circline. It
came with an old-fashioned iron ballast and no starter. I had to start it
by hand using the special switch. That is I had to push the button and keep
it pushed for a 6s. During this time the heaters were on. Relieving the
button ignited the lamp... Most of the times. But over time igniting failed
more and more and the circlines seemed to worn out faster and faster.
Investigating revealed the special switch to be worn out beyond repair. So I
got a 20W CFL, got out the electronics, put them in a box and connected it
to the circline. Works fine for several years now already.
petrus bitbyter
Ian Field
Jan 21, 2013, 4:56:06 PM1/21/13
to
"petrus bitbyter" <petrus....@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:50fda91a$0$588$e4fe...@dreader34.news.xs4all.nl...
around 20kHz.
Frequency may also contribute to easier starting, although most CFLs seem to
have some sort of setup to run power into the heaters.
More often than not its a capacitor to bleed some of the AC current via the
heaters, some Ikea branded CFLs I got from a car boot sale long ago had
resin dipped double pellet thermistors bridging the heaters across the tube.
Phil Allison
Jan 21, 2013, 9:38:36 PM1/21/13
to
"P E Schoen"
It starts to light at 50 VAC and
reaches full brightness at 100-120V, at which it draws about 100mA. That's
close enough to 12 watts for me!
CFL inverters, like most simple SMPS, have a PF of about 0.6 due to the
peaky current wave shape drawn from the AC supply - so VA and watts
numbers differ by about a 2:1 ratio.
You did use a wide band "true rms " meter to measure the AC current -
didn't you ?
... Phil
dagmarg...@yahoo.com
Jan 21, 2013, 9:51:00 PM1/21/13
to
On Jan 21, 8:43 am, "Tim Williams" <tmoran...@charter.net> wrote:
> Besides the electrolytic and bulb, the starter cap is very failure-prone.
FWIW, of the modest pile of CFLs I autopsied from my own house, 100%
> Besides the electrolytic and bulb, the starter cap is very failure-prone.
of the failures were from failed heaters.
This may be atypical. I get good service from CFLs running them
without enclosures; the enclosed, base-up fail modes may be different.
--
Cheers,
James Arthur
hifi-tek
Jan 21, 2013, 10:08:36 PM1/21/13
to
<dagmarg...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c6676b77-1f6c-4ad0...@10g2000yqo.googlegroups.com...
IMHO. I get very good life from CFL's in constant-on service. The Bright
Effects lamps from Lowe's have been very good, and are priced fairly.
Tom
Phil Allison
Jan 21, 2013, 10:36:10 PM1/21/13
to
<dagmarg...@yahoo.com>
> FWIW, of the modest pile of CFLs I autopsied from my own house, 100%
> of the failures were from failed heaters.
for the first few seconds - makes the lamp start quickly, particularly in
cool weather conditions.
It also burns out the heater in a few hundred or so cycles.
Claims for life spans of 6 or 8 thousand hours are based on continuous use
in a cool environment - plus lotsa good luck.
> This may be atypical. I get good service from CFLs running them
> without enclosures; the enclosed, base-up fail modes may be different.
kitchen - it was base up in a non ventilated fitting.
... Phil
Tim Williams
Jan 21, 2013, 11:09:21 PM1/21/13
to
note, the filament tends to fail first. I haven't measured any of the
caps to see the capacitance loss, but the color change is reason enough.
EPCOS makes capacitors specifically for this service; their graphs of peak
voltage vs. capacitance are reminiscient of the Write-Only Memory's
"insertions vs. pins remaining" graph. ;-o
Base-up tends to cook the capacitor; better ones don't mind so much. My
parents have a GE "long life" model on their front porch, an enclosed
(vented enough that bugs find their way in, but not so much that they find
their way out before dying and making a pile...), base-up fixture.
I installed them something like four years ago; the other outdoor lights
(upright, even) have since failed, but the front porch, surprisingly,
still works.
I think. Come to think of it, I didn't look closely last time I was by;
the front porch may've been replaced, most likely under pressure, the
other "low priority targets" simply being "left in the dark"... :-)
P E Schoen
Jan 22, 2013, 5:31:48 AM1/22/13
to
wrote in message
news:c6676b77-1f6c-4ad0...@10g2000yqo.googlegroups.com...
news:c6676b77-1f6c-4ad0...@10g2000yqo.googlegroups.com...
> FWIW, of the modest pile of CFLs I autopsied from my own house,
> 100% of the failures were from failed heaters.
> This may be atypical. I get good service from CFLs running them
> without enclosures; the enclosed, base-up fail modes may be different.
I measured the heaters on one of the new circline lamps and they appear to
> 100% of the failures were from failed heaters.
> This may be atypical. I get good service from CFLs running them
> without enclosures; the enclosed, base-up fail modes may be different.
be about 3 ohms each. So in series, using a starter, they would draw a high
current surge and then probably much lower as they become nearly
incandescent. Of course the ballast would limit the current to some much
lower value. I figure that an ordinary magnetic ballast for 12W would drop
about 30 volts at 100 mA during normal operation, so probably about 400 mA
into the heaters.
But since this lamp had only two wire zipcord going from the electronic
ballast to the lamp, it obviously did not use the heaters with the original
circuit. So I just shorted the connections for the heaters at the board, and
it works perfectly well. I can't see where the 6 ohms of filament resistance
would make much difference to a circuit designed for 100 mA, and I don't
know why the CFLs use the heaters at all, or why they should burn out. It
does appear that the heaters of the one dead CFL are open, although I
thought I had continuity through one when I first measured it. One of the
CFLs actually got broken when I hit it with a flyswatter as I waged war on
the stinkbugs that love to circle the lamp. It seemed to continue to glow
for a while, which may have been the heaters.
The defunct circline lamp shows discoloration on one end and that heater is
open, while the other is OK. I don't know how it can burn out if there is
only one wire connected to it. Perhaps it just vaporizes because of the
current flowing from it into the fluorescent plasma? I don't really know the
details of operation.
When I was still in High School I made a little multivibrator circuit that
fed a 12V transformer and I connected the 120V winding through a capacitor
to a small fluorescent lamp in a camping lantern. It originally used a big
high voltage battery (maybe 90 volts and maybe two of them), and maybe some
sort of vibrator as in old tube type car radios to get the AC voltage for
the lamp. Will it work on just DC? My conversion worked on a 12V motorcycle
battery, and it was instant start, whereas the original had a starter
button. I think I still have that lantern somewhere. I should find it and
look inside.
I also have an old lantern that originally used two big doorbell batteries
(remember them?), and I replaced them with a NiCad battery that was made of
plexiglass so you could see the plates and electrolyte inside and possibly
even service it. My father worked for a company that made exotic batteries
for the military and I think this came from there, probably 50 years ago.
Paul
Mike Tomlinson
Jan 22, 2013, 6:27:47 AM1/22/13
to
In article <50fda91a$0$588$e4fe...@dreader34.news.xs4all.nl>, petrus
bitbyter <petrus....@hotmail.com> writes
> Nevertheless, the heaters cannot be omitted as they provide the
>electrons required for the current through the tube.
In other words, used like this, they are not heaters but cathodes.
Presumably this is what a 'cold cathode' tube is.
--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
bitbyter <petrus....@hotmail.com> writes
> Nevertheless, the heaters cannot be omitted as they provide the
>electrons required for the current through the tube.
Presumably this is what a 'cold cathode' tube is.
--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
petrus bitbyter
Jan 22, 2013, 9:37:37 AM1/22/13
to
"Mike Tomlinson" <mi...@jasper.org.uk> schreef in bericht
news:UjRdfqBzen$QF...@jasper.org.uk...
heated cathodes. Once the light is on they are pretty hot cold cathodes :)
petrus bitbyter
William Sommerwerck
Jan 22, 2013, 9:40:44 AM1/22/13
to
>> Most CFLs have PTC thermistors that increase current flow
>> to the heater for the first few seconds - makes the lamp start
>> quickly, particularly in cool weather conditions.
>> It also burns out the heater in a few hundred or so cycles.
Fortunately, I have not had this problem. The CFLs in my bathroom and bedroom
>> to the heater for the first few seconds - makes the lamp start
>> quickly, particularly in cool weather conditions.
>> It also burns out the heater in a few hundred or so cycles.
have lasted two to three years, and are turned on and off several times a day.
Ian Field
Jan 22, 2013, 11:44:06 AM1/22/13
to
"Phil Allison" <phi...@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:am6fp5...@mid.individual.net...
non-ventilated fitting!
k...@attt.bizz
Jan 22, 2013, 11:45:57 AM1/22/13
to
that.
Ian Field
Jan 22, 2013, 11:49:45 AM1/22/13
to
"Tim Williams" <tmor...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:kdl3da$j96$1...@dont-email.me...
> <dagmarg...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:c6676b77-1f6c-4ad0...@10g2000yqo.googlegroups.com...
>> On Jan 21, 8:43 am, "Tim Williams" <tmoran...@charter.net> wrote:
>> > Besides the electrolytic and bulb, the starter cap is very
>> > failure-prone.
>>
>> FWIW, of the modest pile of CFLs I autopsied from my own house, 100%
> of the failures were from failed heaters.
>>
>> This may be atypical. I get good service from CFLs running them
> without enclosures; the enclosed, base-up fail modes may be different.
>
> I don't know if any do fail specifically due to the start cap -- as you
> note, the filament tends to fail first. I haven't measured any of the
> caps to see the capacitance loss, but the color change is reason enough.
On the last CFL I autopsied; the electrolytic read a realistic ESR on the
> news:c6676b77-1f6c-4ad0...@10g2000yqo.googlegroups.com...
>> On Jan 21, 8:43 am, "Tim Williams" <tmoran...@charter.net> wrote:
>> > Besides the electrolytic and bulb, the starter cap is very
>> > failure-prone.
>>
>> FWIW, of the modest pile of CFLs I autopsied from my own house, 100%
> of the failures were from failed heaters.
>>
>> This may be atypical. I get good service from CFLs running them
> without enclosures; the enclosed, base-up fail modes may be different.
>
> I don't know if any do fail specifically due to the start cap -- as you
> note, the filament tends to fail first. I haven't measured any of the
> caps to see the capacitance loss, but the color change is reason enough.
Peak Atlas ESR70, but zero capacitance.
When I double checked with the DSE ESR meter it showed O/C.
On closer inspection, there was a tiny ring of corrosion "fur" round one of
the legs.
Ian Field
Jan 22, 2013, 11:53:27 AM1/22/13
to
"Mike Tomlinson" <mi...@jasper.org.uk> wrote in message
news:UjRdfqBzen$QF...@jasper.org.uk...
during the periods when its an anode.
Tubes for iron ballasts often have a "cathode" cylinder enclosing the
heater.
k...@attt.bizz
Jan 22, 2013, 12:43:19 PM1/22/13
to
They're hell on CFLs.
Phil Allison
Jan 22, 2013, 11:28:05 PM1/22/13
to
"Ian Field" <
> "Phil Allison"
http://sound.westhost.com/articles/il-cfl-6.htm
The are no ventilation a holes at the back of the fitting and all the spiral
CFLs were a neat fit.
... Phil
legg
Jan 23, 2013, 12:06:26 AM1/23/13
to
On Mon, 21 Jan 2013 04:04:24 -0500, "P E Schoen" <pa...@peschoen.com>
wrote:
>I have a desk lamp, with a magnifier and a 12W T4 circline fluorescent bulb,
>that I use constantly for working on PCBs and electronics projects in
>general. I bought it several years ago and recently it started flickering
>and then died. I replaced the bulb, but still no joy, and after replacing
>the blown fuse and two damaged transistors, I found that the little
>transformer had an open winding.
>
>So, I thought, a 60W equivalent CFL is actually about 11-13 watts, and the
>little circuit in them should work. I had a couple of broken or dead bulbs
>ready for recycling, so I opened the bases, cut the leads, and extracted the
>PCBs. After a few unsuccessful tries, I was able to get it to work and now
>my lamp is once again operational.
>
>I found some schematics of the CFL driver boards here:
>http://www.pavouk.org/hw/lamp/en_index.html
>
>Some of those circuits matched what I had almost exactly. It was a little
>difficult to follow the explanation of how they operate, but what was
>confusing is the four pins shown on the lamp itself, which is also how the
>bulbs are made. I assume they are the heaters that are usually activated
>with a starter, but I did not find any continuity on those pins. The desk
>lamp only had one wire to each of two pins on the circline bulb, but in the
>CFLs all four wires were connected to different points on the PCB. It would
>only work when I shorted the connections that would have gone to the
>heaters, and it seems to work very well. It starts to light at 50 VAC and
>reaches full brightness at 100-120V, at which it draws about 100mA. That's
>close enough to 12 watts for me!
One other thing you can learn from this exercise - low cost part
types.
Typical gapped core sizes commonly used in this application can be
designed in elsewhere for $0.02. Similar price ranges for bobbins,
semiconductors, film caps, fuses and electrolytics.
Lots of other things you can do with this stuff, knowing you won't be
beat on material cost.
RL
wrote:
>I have a desk lamp, with a magnifier and a 12W T4 circline fluorescent bulb,
>that I use constantly for working on PCBs and electronics projects in
>general. I bought it several years ago and recently it started flickering
>and then died. I replaced the bulb, but still no joy, and after replacing
>the blown fuse and two damaged transistors, I found that the little
>transformer had an open winding.
>
>So, I thought, a 60W equivalent CFL is actually about 11-13 watts, and the
>little circuit in them should work. I had a couple of broken or dead bulbs
>ready for recycling, so I opened the bases, cut the leads, and extracted the
>PCBs. After a few unsuccessful tries, I was able to get it to work and now
>my lamp is once again operational.
>
>I found some schematics of the CFL driver boards here:
>http://www.pavouk.org/hw/lamp/en_index.html
>
>Some of those circuits matched what I had almost exactly. It was a little
>difficult to follow the explanation of how they operate, but what was
>confusing is the four pins shown on the lamp itself, which is also how the
>bulbs are made. I assume they are the heaters that are usually activated
>with a starter, but I did not find any continuity on those pins. The desk
>lamp only had one wire to each of two pins on the circline bulb, but in the
>CFLs all four wires were connected to different points on the PCB. It would
>only work when I shorted the connections that would have gone to the
>heaters, and it seems to work very well. It starts to light at 50 VAC and
>reaches full brightness at 100-120V, at which it draws about 100mA. That's
>close enough to 12 watts for me!
types.
Typical gapped core sizes commonly used in this application can be
designed in elsewhere for $0.02. Similar price ranges for bobbins,
semiconductors, film caps, fuses and electrolytics.
Lots of other things you can do with this stuff, knowing you won't be
beat on material cost.
RL
Ian Field
Jan 23, 2013, 11:41:16 AM1/23/13
to
news:am976i...@mid.individual.net...
Even stupid people should know better than put CFLs in a fitting like that!
Spehro Pefhany
Jan 23, 2013, 12:04:10 PM1/23/13
to
fixture and it's been working fine for years. (I even conformally
coated the lamp before sealing it in the fixture).
I only buy name brand (eg. Philips) products though, and probably
they're made a bit better than the ones that come 8 to a card. Never
seen any perforation of the housings on failure.
David Eather
Jan 23, 2013, 12:46:48 PM1/23/13
to
can confirm they use the same caps or worse - mine were marked as 350V DC.
Considering the mains was 240v AC thats not a lot of a safety margin. I
now use whatever is cheapest seeing as it makes no difference to the
quality.
Ian Field
Jan 23, 2013, 2:02:25 PM1/23/13
to
"David Eather" <eat...@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:op.wrdk0ae1wei6gd@phenom-pc...
nowadays with PFC front ends, there's no rectifier-reservoir electrolytic,
the PFC unit is essentially a boost converter, so the main electrolytic
would be about 450V.
Spehro Pefhany
Jan 23, 2013, 2:14:08 PM1/23/13
to
On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 03:46:48 +1000, "David Eather" <eat...@tpg.com.au>
wrote:
>
>Nope. I lost three Philips to one power surge and on pulling them apart I
>can confirm they use the same caps or worse - mine were marked as 350V DC.
>Considering the mains was 240v AC thats not a lot of a safety margin. I
>now use whatever is cheapest seeing as it makes no difference to the
>quality.
Parts that are marked the same are not necessarily the same. The $1.00
bulbs may contain gold-colored caps marked as 630VDC/125°C.
http://www.discovercircuits.com/dc-mag/Issue_4/Photos/FakeCapacitor1.jpg
Not sure if the 240V input makes much difference.. they are likely
using a doubler circuit in our (120V) lamps.
I have heard enough stories of people who bought the cheap ones and
had initial failures, exciting failures, and such like to avoid the
low end stuff.
It would be nice if LED lamps got anywhere close to the brightness of
CFL, halogen or incandescent bulbs at a reasonable price, but they are
not very close yet. Maybe in a few years. I bought a couple MR11
"brightest on the market" bulbs to unload the halogen xfmr and allow
me to put a bigger halogen in the centre bulb of a 3-light string, and
they're not even comparable. I'll have to take some quantitative
measurements at some point.
wrote:
>
>Nope. I lost three Philips to one power surge and on pulling them apart I
>can confirm they use the same caps or worse - mine were marked as 350V DC.
>Considering the mains was 240v AC thats not a lot of a safety margin. I
>now use whatever is cheapest seeing as it makes no difference to the
>quality.
bulbs may contain gold-colored caps marked as 630VDC/125°C.
http://www.discovercircuits.com/dc-mag/Issue_4/Photos/FakeCapacitor1.jpg
Not sure if the 240V input makes much difference.. they are likely
using a doubler circuit in our (120V) lamps.
I have heard enough stories of people who bought the cheap ones and
had initial failures, exciting failures, and such like to avoid the
low end stuff.
It would be nice if LED lamps got anywhere close to the brightness of
CFL, halogen or incandescent bulbs at a reasonable price, but they are
not very close yet. Maybe in a few years. I bought a couple MR11
"brightest on the market" bulbs to unload the halogen xfmr and allow
me to put a bigger halogen in the centre bulb of a 3-light string, and
they're not even comparable. I'll have to take some quantitative
measurements at some point.
Ian Field
Jan 23, 2013, 2:40:37 PM1/23/13
to
"Spehro Pefhany" <spef...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote in message
news:s6c0g8pgpjgmhg6dc...@4ax.com...
lumen/W, several times the price and you'd need at least 3 (at 9W each) to
equal the light output of an 18W CFL.
LED lighting in the style similar to LV halogen type is supposedly up to the
job.
Spehro Pefhany
Jan 23, 2013, 3:14:14 PM1/23/13
to
On Wed, 23 Jan 2013 19:40:37 -0000, "Ian Field"
<gangprob...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>LED lighting in the style similar to LV halogen type is supposedly up to the
>job.
Lumens per watt is probably okay. The problem is that they're using
<gangprob...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>LED lighting in the style similar to LV halogen type is supposedly up to the
>job.
discrete SMT LEDs and the $ per incremental lumen is far more than for
a CFL.
These are the ones I bought.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007DA05O6/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00
I'd prefer to have 50W or 100W equivalent that burns 5 or 10W.
George Herold
Jan 23, 2013, 4:00:38 PM1/23/13
to
On Jan 22, 11:28 pm, "Phil Allison" <phi...@tpg.com.au> wrote:
> "Ian Field" <
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Phil Allison"
> >> <dagmargoodb...@yahoo.com>
Nice artcile Phil, But don't worry about the legislature's doing
anything. What's needed is some lawayer to get a hold of it and sue
the manufacturers.
(That's the US way :^)
George H.
>
> ... Phil- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
> "Ian Field" <
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Phil Allison"
> >> <dagmargoodb...@yahoo.com>
anything. What's needed is some lawayer to get a hold of it and sue
the manufacturers.
(That's the US way :^)
George H.
>
> ... Phil- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Spehro Pefhany
Jan 23, 2013, 4:44:01 PM1/23/13
to
On Wed, 23 Jan 2013 13:00:38 -0800 (PST), George Herold
<ghe...@teachspin.com> wrote:
>
>Nice artcile Phil, But don't worry about the legislature's doing
>anything. What's needed is some lawayer to get a hold of it and sue
>the manufacturers.
>
>(That's the US way :^)
>
>George H.
>
The offshore manufacturers are probably not easy to get substantial
<ghe...@teachspin.com> wrote:
>
>Nice artcile Phil, But don't worry about the legislature's doing
>anything. What's needed is some lawayer to get a hold of it and sue
>the manufacturers.
>
>(That's the US way :^)
>
>George H.
>
judgements against- but the stores, especially those who do their own
importing, have deep pockets and can't easily escape.
They do have a good defense though- if it has safety agency approval,
it's presumed to be safe. Maybe report it to the safety agencies- but
I don't see anthing there that would really raise the alarm-
incadescents break and short internally and implode from time to time,
and none of the burn- through incidents shows support of combustion.
Any fixture designed for a normal incandescent ought not to burn the
office or house down. The one that 'exploded' is the closest one- the
mfr may have substituted a cheaper non-fiberglass sleeving on that
diode.
Spehro Pefhany
Jan 23, 2013, 4:49:45 PM1/23/13
to
http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml11/11001.html
Sold at: Discount stores in New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania and
Connecticut from January 2008 to December 2008 for between $1 and
$1.50.
Manufactured in: China
Phil Allison
Jan 23, 2013, 5:45:44 PM1/23/13
to
"Spehro Pefhany"
>>"Phil Allison"
>>>>>
>>>>> ** Recently, a neighbour had an 18W CFL explode and bits go all over
>>>>> the
>>>>> kitchen - it was base up in a non ventilated fitting.
>>>>
>>>> Must've been a pretty big explosion for bits to go everywhere from a
>>>> non-ventilated fitting!
>>>
>>> ** See the second half of this page for pics of the actual CFL and
>>> fitting.
>>>
>>> http://sound.westhost.com/articles/il-cfl-6.htm
>>>
>>> The are no ventilation a holes at the back of the fitting and all the
>>> spiral CFLs were a neat fit.
>>
>
>>>>> ** Recently, a neighbour had an 18W CFL explode and bits go all over
>>>>> the
>>>>> kitchen - it was base up in a non ventilated fitting.
>>>>
>>>> Must've been a pretty big explosion for bits to go everywhere from a
>>>> non-ventilated fitting!
>>>
>>> ** See the second half of this page for pics of the actual CFL and
>>> fitting.
>>>
>>> http://sound.westhost.com/articles/il-cfl-6.htm
>>>
>>> The are no ventilation a holes at the back of the fitting and all the
>>> spiral CFLs were a neat fit.
>>
>
> I only buy name brand (eg. Philips) products though, and probably
> they're made a bit better than the ones that come 8 to a card. Never
> seen any perforation of the housings on failure.
** The plastic bases of most CFLs simply push fit together - so only a
> they're made a bit better than the ones that come 8 to a card. Never
> seen any perforation of the housings on failure.
small explosion inside will blow the top part off.
Small bits of glass were strewn from one end of the kitchen to the other (
when I arrived with my camera ) and some bits had landed on the benches -
so it seemed the spiral tube must have exploded in mid air. The filaments
were both intact so the only explanation I have is that the glass spiral
impacted hard against the inside of the lamp fitting before falling in
pieces.
... Phil
Doug White
Jan 23, 2013, 6:23:03 PM1/23/13
to
Spehro Pefhany <spef...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote in
news:s6c0g8pgpjgmhg6dc...@4ax.com:
<snip>
> It would be nice if LED lamps got anywhere close to the brightness of
> CFL, halogen or incandescent bulbs at a reasonable price, but they are
> not very close yet. Maybe in a few years. I bought a couple MR11
> "brightest on the market" bulbs to unload the halogen xfmr and allow
> me to put a bigger halogen in the centre bulb of a 3-light string, and
> they're not even comparable. I'll have to take some quantitative
> measurements at some point.
If you want relatively unbiased & consitent tests of LED bulbs, check
> CFL, halogen or incandescent bulbs at a reasonable price, but they are
> not very close yet. Maybe in a few years. I bought a couple MR11
> "brightest on the market" bulbs to unload the halogen xfmr and allow
> me to put a bigger halogen in the centre bulb of a 3-light string, and
> they're not even comparable. I'll have to take some quantitative
> measurements at some point.
out:
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/ssl/caliper.html
You have to promise that you aren't a commercial operation to see the
full reports. The reports tend to lag a bit behind the latest
technology, but the quality is going up & the prices are coming down.
I have a couple of LED bulbs in special applications, and they work very
nicely. I use a couple MR-16 replacements in gooseneck illuminators on
my milling machine because I got tired of toasting myself with the
halogen bulbs. I've also installed these:
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-202240932/h_d2/ProductDisplay?
catalogId=10053&langId=-1#.UQBxHfIT_To
in stairwells where I want instant full brightness. They work great.
They also actually cost a lot less than the dimmable CFL retrofit units I
installed a number of years ago.
Doug White
George Herold
Jan 23, 2013, 9:18:20 PM1/23/13
to
On Jan 23, 4:44 pm, Spehro Pefhany <speffS...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat>
wrote:
damage.
I haven't had many problems with cfl's, except for globe units in the
(steamy?) bathroom.
George H.
wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Jan 2013 13:00:38 -0800 (PST), George Herold
>
>
> <gher...@teachspin.com> wrote:
>
> >Nice artcile Phil, But don't worry about the legislature's doing
> >anything. What's needed is some lawayer to get a hold of it and sue
> >the manufacturers.
>
> >(That's the US way :^)
>
> >George H.
>
> The offshore manufacturers are probably not easy to get substantial
> judgements against- but the stores, especially those who do their own
> importing, have deep pockets and can't easily escape.
Grin sure sue everyone,
>
> >Nice artcile Phil, But don't worry about the legislature's doing
> >anything. What's needed is some lawayer to get a hold of it and sue
> >the manufacturers.
>
> >(That's the US way :^)
>
> >George H.
>
> The offshore manufacturers are probably not easy to get substantial
> judgements against- but the stores, especially those who do their own
> importing, have deep pockets and can't easily escape.
>
> They do have a good defense though- if it has safety agency approval,
> it's presumed to be safe. Maybe report it to the safety agencies- but
> I don't see anthing there that would really raise the alarm-
> incadescents break and short internally and implode from time to time,
> and none of the burn- through incidents shows support of combustion.
> Any fixture designed for a normal incandescent ought not to burn the
> office or house down. The one that 'exploded' is the closest one- the
> mfr may have substituted a cheaper non-fiberglass sleeving on that
> diode.
OK maybe it will be the insurance company lawyers sueing for fire
> They do have a good defense though- if it has safety agency approval,
> it's presumed to be safe. Maybe report it to the safety agencies- but
> I don't see anthing there that would really raise the alarm-
> incadescents break and short internally and implode from time to time,
> and none of the burn- through incidents shows support of combustion.
> Any fixture designed for a normal incandescent ought not to burn the
> office or house down. The one that 'exploded' is the closest one- the
> mfr may have substituted a cheaper non-fiberglass sleeving on that
> diode.
damage.
I haven't had many problems with cfl's, except for globe units in the
(steamy?) bathroom.
George H.
Spehro Pefhany
Jan 24, 2013, 9:19:05 AM1/24/13
to
On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 09:45:44 +1100, the renowned "Phil Allison"
<phi...@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>
>** The plastic bases of most CFLs simply push fit together - so only a
>small explosion inside will blow the top part off.
If they come apart easily by pulling and expose the mains potential, I
<phi...@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>
>** The plastic bases of most CFLs simply push fit together - so only a
>small explosion inside will blow the top part off.
would not think that would pass muster with the safety agencies. It's
been a while since I've tried to take one part, but I recall whole
rows of snaps that are not easy to disengage.
Does Australia enforce national safety standards on the sale of
mains-powered goods?
>
>Small bits of glass were strewn from one end of the kitchen to the other (
>when I arrived with my camera ) and some bits had landed on the benches -
>so it seemed the spiral tube must have exploded in mid air. The filaments
>were both intact so the only explanation I have is that the glass spiral
>impacted hard against the inside of the lamp fitting before falling in
>pieces.
>
>
>... Phil
>
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
sp...@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
Ian Field
Jan 24, 2013, 10:05:19 AM1/24/13
to
"Spehro Pefhany" <spef...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote in message
news:77g2g8lhtv08d3k09...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 09:45:44 +1100, the renowned "Phil Allison"
> <phi...@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>
>>
>>** The plastic bases of most CFLs simply push fit together - so only a
>>small explosion inside will blow the top part off.
>
> If they come apart easily by pulling and expose the mains potential, I
> would not think that would pass muster with the safety agencies. It's
> been a while since I've tried to take one part, but I recall whole
> rows of snaps that are not easy to disengage.
Many of the early types sold in the UK were fairly easy to pry open and
> <phi...@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>
>>
>>** The plastic bases of most CFLs simply push fit together - so only a
>>small explosion inside will blow the top part off.
>
> If they come apart easily by pulling and expose the mains potential, I
> would not think that would pass muster with the safety agencies. It's
> been a while since I've tried to take one part, but I recall whole
> rows of snaps that are not easy to disengage.
could be clipped together again easily - the most recent Philips one's I
bought are much more secure - you pretty much have to destroy the case to
pry it open.
Phil Allison
Jan 24, 2013, 6:20:29 PM1/24/13
to
"Spehro Pefhany"
> "Phil Allison"
>>
>>** The plastic bases of most CFLs simply push fit together - so only a
>>small explosion inside will blow the top part off.
>
> If they come apart easily by pulling and expose the mains potential,
** See the word "explosion " ??
>>** The plastic bases of most CFLs simply push fit together - so only a
>>small explosion inside will blow the top part off.
>
> If they come apart easily by pulling and expose the mains potential,
A tool ( ie screwdriver) is needed to open most CFLs and that is adequate
to pass safety rules anywhere.
... Phil
Spehro Pefhany
Jan 24, 2013, 7:16:14 PM1/24/13
to
On Fri, 25 Jan 2013 10:20:29 +1100, the renowned "Phil Allison"
<phi...@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>
>"Spehro Pefhany"
>> "Phil Allison"
> >>
>>>** The plastic bases of most CFLs simply push fit together - so only a
>>>small explosion inside will blow the top part off.
>>
>> If they come apart easily by pulling and expose the mains potential,
>
>
>** See the word "explosion " ??
An explosion like "pop rocks" or an explosion like Bikini atoll? Maybe
<phi...@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>
>"Spehro Pefhany"
>> "Phil Allison"
> >>
>>>** The plastic bases of most CFLs simply push fit together - so only a
>>>small explosion inside will blow the top part off.
>>
>> If they come apart easily by pulling and expose the mains potential,
>
>
>** See the word "explosion " ??
your mains has more oomph, but I've not seen anything that would blow
apart a proper housing from a residential power line.
>
> A tool ( ie screwdriver) is needed to open most CFLs and that is adequate
>to pass safety rules anywhere.
>
>
>... Phil
Phil Allison
Jan 24, 2013, 7:41:13 PM1/24/13
to
"Spehro Pefhany"
** Wot a fucking idiot PITA wog TROLL !!
--------------------------------------------
>>>>** The plastic bases of most CFLs simply push fit together - so only a
>>>>small explosion inside will blow the top part off.
>>>
>>> If they come apart easily by pulling and expose the mains potential,
>>
>>
>>** See the word "explosion " ??
>
> An explosion like "pop rocks" or an explosion like Bikini atoll?
Try looking at the pics again - shithead.
If you are not blinded from all that wanking you do.
... Phil
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