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Alkaline Battery Leak Cleanup
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BeeJ
Sep 23, 2012, 5:46:45 PM9/23/12
to
What is the best Alkaline Battery Leak Cleanup (AA Copper tops) method
for the metal contacts that were exposed to the battery leakage?
Some contacts are easy to get to and some are not.
Chemical to use? Or ?
Thanks.
--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---
for the metal contacts that were exposed to the battery leakage?
Some contacts are easy to get to and some are not.
Chemical to use? Or ?
Thanks.
--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---
John-Del
Sep 23, 2012, 6:20:01 PM9/23/12
to
On Sunday, September 23, 2012 5:46:50 PM UTC-4, BeeJ wrote:
> What is the best Alkaline Battery Leak Cleanup (AA Copper tops) method
>
> for the metal contacts that were exposed to the battery leakage?
>
>
>
> Some contacts are easy to get to and some are not.
>
>
>
> Chemical to use? Or ?
>
Believe it or not, plain old H2O works better than just about any solvent you can try.
> What is the best Alkaline Battery Leak Cleanup (AA Copper tops) method
>
> for the metal contacts that were exposed to the battery leakage?
>
>
>
> Some contacts are easy to get to and some are not.
>
>
>
> Chemical to use? Or ?
>
Guv Bob
Sep 23, 2012, 7:23:16 PM9/23/12
to
"John-Del" <ohg...@aol.com> wrote in message news:09f242bd-aa47-43f1...@googlegroups.com...
This is a timely posting, BeeJ. I have had 2 alkaline batteries show up leaking this year -- first time in 40+ years I have ever seen one leaking. One was inside a clock and the other in a camera.
I wonder if the standards have changed lately? I don't recall what brand these were, but they were name brands and bought at different places.
I wonder if the standards have changed lately? I don't recall what brand these were, but they were name brands and bought at different places.
William Sommerwerck
Sep 23, 2012, 7:24:08 PM9/23/12
to
I prefer household ammonia, followed by an isopropyl alcohol flush.
Ammonia is a base, as is the electrolyte -- like dissolves like.
Ammonia is a base, as is the electrolyte -- like dissolves like.
Rich Webb
Sep 23, 2012, 8:29:17 PM9/23/12
to
On Sun, 23 Sep 2012 14:46:45 -0700, BeeJ <nos...@spamnot.com> wrote:
>What is the best Alkaline Battery Leak Cleanup (AA Copper tops) method
>for the metal contacts that were exposed to the battery leakage?
>
>Some contacts are easy to get to and some are not.
>
>Chemical to use? Or ?
I use a pinch of "cream of tartar" (look in the kitchen spice rack) and
>What is the best Alkaline Battery Leak Cleanup (AA Copper tops) method
>for the metal contacts that were exposed to the battery leakage?
>
>Some contacts are easy to get to and some are not.
>
>Chemical to use? Or ?
a few drops of water to make a thin paste. If it's really bad,
substitute white vinegar for the water. In either case, rinse well.
--
Rich Webb Norfolk, VA
Cydrome Leader
Sep 23, 2012, 8:54:16 PM9/23/12
to
BeeJ <nos...@spamnot.com> wrote:
> What is the best Alkaline Battery Leak Cleanup (AA Copper tops) method
> for the metal contacts that were exposed to the battery leakage?
>
> Some contacts are easy to get to and some are not.
>
> Chemical to use? Or ?
distilled water, was everything off that is corroded or wet if you can.
> What is the best Alkaline Battery Leak Cleanup (AA Copper tops) method
> for the metal contacts that were exposed to the battery leakage?
>
> Some contacts are easy to get to and some are not.
>
> Chemical to use? Or ?
Scrub with an old toothbrush.
regular tap water can leave mineral deposits and corrode stuff as well,
plus distilled water is really eager to dissolve electrolytes from
anything. It's a good solvent and harmless and pretty cheap.
Jeff Liebermann
Sep 23, 2012, 9:47:09 PM9/23/12
to
>What is the best Alkaline Battery Leak Cleanup (AA Copper tops) method
>for the metal contacts that were exposed to the battery leakage?
I use 409 household cleaner and scrub with an old tooth brush. When
>for the metal contacts that were exposed to the battery leakage?
409 is sprayed on the white crud left by a leaky battery, it foams and
fizzes. After that, I rinse with tap water, blow away the residual
water with an air compressor, and/or blot whatever is left with towel
paper. Sometimes, the white stuff is thick enough that I have to
scrape it off with a small dull screwdriver or piece of plastic. Not
much can be done to replace the chrome plating that is commonly used
on equipment battery contacts. Left alone, the base metal will rust
or corrode. I smear on some grease to slow down the corrosion, but
find that it's not really adequate. I wouldn't mind painting the
contacts with clear acrylic after masking the contact area, but that's
often difficult or awkward to accomplish.
Although it doesn't help for all types of battery leaks, I sometimes
wrap the batteries in household cellophane wrap (especially in
flashlights). It doesn't prevent leakage or do anything when it leaks
out the ends, but does help to limit the spread of the corrosive goo.
--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
gregz
Sep 23, 2012, 10:54:13 PM9/23/12
to
for camp coffee. Makes good coffee.
Greg
gregz
Sep 23, 2012, 11:46:35 PM9/23/12
to
pots. Deionized, ok. Maybe the coffee fixes that situation. I have a
stainless reservoir at home, glass at camp.
Greg
Geoffrey S. Mendelson
Sep 24, 2012, 4:44:04 AM9/24/12
to
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> Left alone, the base metal will rust
> or corrode. I smear on some grease to slow down the corrosion, but
> find that it's not really adequate. I wouldn't mind painting the
> contacts with clear acrylic after masking the contact area, but that's
> often difficult or awkward to accomplish.
Here in Israel amomonia based window cleaners were replaced years ago with
> Left alone, the base metal will rust
> or corrode. I smear on some grease to slow down the corrosion, but
> find that it's not really adequate. I wouldn't mind painting the
> contacts with clear acrylic after masking the contact area, but that's
> often difficult or awkward to accomplish.
vinegar ones. They do a great job of removing the crud left by a battery.
I usually put it on the tip of a cotton swab, and apply carefully. Battery
door covers that are removable and loaded with it get removed and sprayed
directly.
After they are clean, I dry them thoroughly. The part that actually makes
contact, I do a final cleaning with DeOxit (the red liquid on a cotton swab),
and remove any residual deoxit with a clean swab.
As part of a kit, I got DeOxit brand contact enhancers, and occasionally I
use them after the contacts have been cleaned and the device tested.
If you are in the EU, you can buy a better cleaner called Cramolin, which
used to be sold by the people who sell DeOxit. Post 9/11 the Cramolin
products can not be shipped by air in the US, so DeOxit was created by
their US distributor to fill the gap.
There is a competing product called Stabilant-22 made in Canada. I have
not used it becuase it is very expensive. You buy a small bottle and dilute
it with alcohol, so the per use price is low. Motorola sells it for
repairing LMR radios.
The price to me would be over $100 for the smallest bottle and shipping,
so I stick with the $5 tubes of DeOxit, which can be sent in a regular
envelope airmail.
Geoff.
--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379
Anna Joshi
Sep 24, 2012, 6:25:21 AM9/24/12
to
The Do's & Don'ts of an Engineering student.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-MweIUKAig&list=UUmhLtTCHD3S6Asrfi2zSJ2A&index=5&feature=plpp_video
Subscribe for more footage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-MweIUKAig&list=UUmhLtTCHD3S6Asrfi2zSJ2A&index=5&feature=plpp_video
Subscribe for more footage.
Michael A. Terrell
Sep 24, 2012, 7:21:05 AM9/24/12
to
gregz wrote:
>
> Cydrome Leader ?pres...@MUNGEpanix.com? wrote:
> ? BeeJ ?nos...@spamnot.com? wrote:
> ?? What is the best Alkaline Battery Leak Cleanup (AA Copper tops) method
> ?? for the metal contacts that were exposed to the battery leakage?
> ??
> ?? Some contacts are easy to get to and some are not.
> ??
> ?? Chemical to use? Or ?
> ?
> ? distilled water, was everything off that is corroded or wet if you can.
> ? Scrub with an old toothbrush.
> ?
> ? regular tap water can leave mineral deposits and corrode stuff as well,
> ? plus distilled water is really eager to dissolve electrolytes from
> ? anything. It's a good solvent and harmless and pretty cheap.
>
> I was surprised my big grocery carries distilled. Bought a couple gallons
> for camp coffee. Makes good coffee.
And soup beans. Hard water ruins them.
> I was surprised my big grocery carries distilled. Bought a couple gallons
> for camp coffee. Makes good coffee.
Michael A. Terrell
Sep 24, 2012, 7:21:50 AM9/24/12
to
gregz wrote:
>
> gregz ?ze...@comcast.net? wrote:
> ? Cydrome Leader ?pres...@MUNGEpanix.com? wrote:
> ?? BeeJ ?nos...@spamnot.com? wrote:
> ??? What is the best Alkaline Battery Leak Cleanup (AA Copper tops) method
> ??? for the metal contacts that were exposed to the battery leakage?
> ???
> ??? Some contacts are easy to get to and some are not.
> ???
> ??? Chemical to use? Or ?
> ??
> ?? distilled water, was everything off that is corroded or wet if you can.
> ?? Scrub with an old toothbrush.
> ??
> ?? regular tap water can leave mineral deposits and corrode stuff as well,
> ?? plus distilled water is really eager to dissolve electrolytes from
> ?? anything. It's a good solvent and harmless and pretty cheap.
> ?
> ? I was surprised my big grocery carries distilled. Bought a couple gallons
> ? for camp coffee. Makes good coffee.
> ?
> ? Greg
>
> That reminds me, your not supposed to use distilled water in stainless
> pots. Deionized, ok. Maybe the coffee fixes that situation. I have a
> stainless reservoir at home, glass at camp.
Then why do they make electric stills out of stainless steel?
> That reminds me, your not supposed to use distilled water in stainless
> pots. Deionized, ok. Maybe the coffee fixes that situation. I have a
> stainless reservoir at home, glass at camp.
gregz
Sep 24, 2012, 12:35:09 PM9/24/12
to
used to work on said, don't use distilled. It leeches nickel and puts holes
in them.
Greg
Michael A. Terrell
Sep 24, 2012, 12:57:30 PM9/24/12
to
Cydrome Leader
Sep 24, 2012, 3:31:56 PM9/24/12
to
modified (these do exist commerically) kitchen dishwashers have all sorts
of upgraded parts so they don't fail instantly. Distilled water is a
really strong solvent, it just seems harmless as it doesn't burn your skin
off and smell bad like other stuff.
William Sommerwerck
Sep 24, 2012, 3:54:50 PM9/24/12
to
> Distilled water is a really strong solvent, it just seems harmless
> as it doesn't burn your skin off and smell bad like other stuff.
What is the chemical reason for the potency of pure water?
> as it doesn't burn your skin off and smell bad like other stuff.
BeeJ
Sep 24, 2012, 4:50:34 PM9/24/12
to
FWIW
I did some reading and found little advice I thought to be helpful.
So I got out the CLR and some cotton swabs and carefully dabbed.
As soon as the CLR hit the alkaline battery goo it foamed up.
I continued until the foaming stopped.
Then I rinsed with RO water and dried the equipment on a air purifier
in a room with a wall A/C unit so I had really dry air. So far so
good. The batteries were put in and the unit works!
Now that all the alkaline goo is gone, what to do about the corrosion?
In one case I just scrubbed more with the cotton swabs; they are pretty
good at scrubbing.
In another case I got out my Harbor Freight battery powered diamond tip
rotary pen and carefully de-crudded the electrical contact area. That
worked OK too but was a little rough on the surface.
But now I am wondering about use phosphoric acid on the contacts. That
will convert the corroded steel (at least) to iron phosphate
effectively stopping corrosion. But now the questions is, what are the
conductive properties of iron phosphate and will it make a reasonable
electrical contact surface? Anyone know about that? Not just iron
phosphate, but about electrical contacts made of what, converted to
whatever phosphate.
Strangely, all the electrical contacts that had goo on them were on the
removable cover and not in the deep innards of the units I am
repairing.
Well, OK, there was a little goo in there but not the corrosion.
I did some reading and found little advice I thought to be helpful.
So I got out the CLR and some cotton swabs and carefully dabbed.
As soon as the CLR hit the alkaline battery goo it foamed up.
I continued until the foaming stopped.
Then I rinsed with RO water and dried the equipment on a air purifier
in a room with a wall A/C unit so I had really dry air. So far so
good. The batteries were put in and the unit works!
Now that all the alkaline goo is gone, what to do about the corrosion?
In one case I just scrubbed more with the cotton swabs; they are pretty
good at scrubbing.
In another case I got out my Harbor Freight battery powered diamond tip
rotary pen and carefully de-crudded the electrical contact area. That
worked OK too but was a little rough on the surface.
But now I am wondering about use phosphoric acid on the contacts. That
will convert the corroded steel (at least) to iron phosphate
effectively stopping corrosion. But now the questions is, what are the
conductive properties of iron phosphate and will it make a reasonable
electrical contact surface? Anyone know about that? Not just iron
phosphate, but about electrical contacts made of what, converted to
whatever phosphate.
Strangely, all the electrical contacts that had goo on them were on the
removable cover and not in the deep innards of the units I am
repairing.
Well, OK, there was a little goo in there but not the corrosion.
Uffe Bærentsen
Sep 24, 2012, 5:46:12 PM9/24/12
to
--
Uffe
Cydrome Leader
Sep 24, 2012, 7:37:13 PM9/24/12
to
it will absorb them from whatever it touches- if they're soluble in water.
There's quite a bit of stuff dissolved in tap water- enough to ruin lead
acid batteries, leave water spots on glasses and photographic film and to
destroy electronics if left to dry in place.
John Robertson
Sep 24, 2012, 11:03:38 PM9/24/12
to
BeeJ wrote:
> What is the best Alkaline Battery Leak Cleanup (AA Copper tops) method
> for the metal contacts that were exposed to the battery leakage?
>
> Some contacts are easy to get to and some are not.
>
> Chemical to use? Or ?
>
> Thanks.
>
I wrote a page on this years ago when pinball game and jukebox computers
> What is the best Alkaline Battery Leak Cleanup (AA Copper tops) method
> for the metal contacts that were exposed to the battery leakage?
>
> Some contacts are easy to get to and some are not.
>
> Chemical to use? Or ?
>
> Thanks.
>
were being corroded by leaky alkaline batteries (ni-cads or AA
alkalines). At the time (mid-90s) I called up one of the help lines for
either Eveready, Duracell, or some such company and they passed me up to
an engineer who stated that the best way he knew to deal with the
alkaline was to use a mild acid solution - white vinegar and water 50:50
was about ideal - soak the item with that, then rinse well with
distilled or low mineral water.
https://www.flippers.com/battery.html
John :-#)#
--
(Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
Mark Zenier
Sep 24, 2012, 3:33:20 PM9/24/12
to
In article <slrnk6073...@cable.mendelson.com>,
ressurect some old metal flashlights that got seriously crudded up.
I think it's original use is for copper-aluminium connections.
...
>If you are in the EU, you can buy a better cleaner called Cramolin, which
>used to be sold by the people who sell DeOxit. Post 9/11 the Cramolin
>products can not be shipped by air in the US, so DeOxit was created by
>their US distributor to fill the gap.
Urban Legend Alert!
I sure as hell wouldn't try carrying it in my luggage, but I've got
an old posting somewhere in my archive from some salesman at Cramonlin,
(made long before 9/11), that they broke off the distribution deal because
the American distributor was claiming they invented it. (There was also
some reformulation going on around that time for the spray can versions,
due to the Freon ban).
"Real" Cramolin is the factory recommended treatment for connection
problems with engine control computers for various German made cars.
"Recommended" might be too weak, more like "Only method allowed".
Try the parts department at your local VW or Beemer dealer.
>There is a competing product called Stabilant-22 made in Canada. I have
>not used it becuase it is very expensive. You buy a small bottle and dilute
>it with alcohol, so the per use price is low. Motorola sells it for
>repairing LMR radios.
Available, in a dilute form as "Tweek" at your local high end audio
store. Never really seemed to do that much.
Mark Zenier mze...@eskimo.com
Googleproofaddress(account:mzenier provider:eskimo domain:com)
Geoffrey S. Mendelson <g...@mendelson.com> wrote:
>Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> Left alone, the base metal will rust
>> or corrode. I smear on some grease to slow down the corrosion, but
>> find that it's not really adequate. I wouldn't mind painting the
>> contacts with clear acrylic after masking the contact area, but that's
>> often difficult or awkward to accomplish.
I've had reasonable results using the green anti-oxidant grease to
>Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> Left alone, the base metal will rust
>> or corrode. I smear on some grease to slow down the corrosion, but
>> find that it's not really adequate. I wouldn't mind painting the
>> contacts with clear acrylic after masking the contact area, but that's
>> often difficult or awkward to accomplish.
ressurect some old metal flashlights that got seriously crudded up.
I think it's original use is for copper-aluminium connections.
...
>If you are in the EU, you can buy a better cleaner called Cramolin, which
>used to be sold by the people who sell DeOxit. Post 9/11 the Cramolin
>products can not be shipped by air in the US, so DeOxit was created by
>their US distributor to fill the gap.
I sure as hell wouldn't try carrying it in my luggage, but I've got
an old posting somewhere in my archive from some salesman at Cramonlin,
(made long before 9/11), that they broke off the distribution deal because
the American distributor was claiming they invented it. (There was also
some reformulation going on around that time for the spray can versions,
due to the Freon ban).
"Real" Cramolin is the factory recommended treatment for connection
problems with engine control computers for various German made cars.
"Recommended" might be too weak, more like "Only method allowed".
Try the parts department at your local VW or Beemer dealer.
>There is a competing product called Stabilant-22 made in Canada. I have
>not used it becuase it is very expensive. You buy a small bottle and dilute
>it with alcohol, so the per use price is low. Motorola sells it for
>repairing LMR radios.
store. Never really seemed to do that much.
Mark Zenier mze...@eskimo.com
Googleproofaddress(account:mzenier provider:eskimo domain:com)
Jeff Liebermann
Sep 25, 2012, 3:29:03 PM9/25/12
to
On Mon, 24 Sep 2012 19:33:20 GMT, mze...@eskimo.com (Mark Zenier)
wrote:
>I sure as hell wouldn't try carrying it in my luggage, but I've got
>an old posting somewhere in my archive from some salesman at Cramonlin,
>(made long before 9/11), that they broke off the distribution deal because
>the American distributor was claiming they invented it. (There was also
>some reformulation going on around that time for the spray can versions,
>due to the Freon ban).
<http://www.pitt.edu/~szekeres/caigcram.htm>
<http://siber-sonic.com/electronics/caig.html>
As far as I can determine, the only real difference between the Caig
DeOxit product and the original Cramolin is that Cramolin contains
about 5% oleic acid, whilc DeOxit does not. Oleic acid will remove
oxidation products quite nicely, but should not be left on copper or
brass contacts, which it will eventually corrode.
The current version is DeOxit from Caig Labs. It comes in an amazing
variety of forms, and is allegedly non-corrosive.
<http://store.caig.com/s.nl/sc.2/.f>
The MSDS data shows the active ingredients as a "trade secret". Oh
well.
wrote:
>I sure as hell wouldn't try carrying it in my luggage, but I've got
>an old posting somewhere in my archive from some salesman at Cramonlin,
>(made long before 9/11), that they broke off the distribution deal because
>the American distributor was claiming they invented it. (There was also
>some reformulation going on around that time for the spray can versions,
>due to the Freon ban).
<http://siber-sonic.com/electronics/caig.html>
As far as I can determine, the only real difference between the Caig
DeOxit product and the original Cramolin is that Cramolin contains
about 5% oleic acid, whilc DeOxit does not. Oleic acid will remove
oxidation products quite nicely, but should not be left on copper or
brass contacts, which it will eventually corrode.
The current version is DeOxit from Caig Labs. It comes in an amazing
variety of forms, and is allegedly non-corrosive.
<http://store.caig.com/s.nl/sc.2/.f>
The MSDS data shows the active ingredients as a "trade secret". Oh
well.
BeeJ
Sep 25, 2012, 8:31:25 PM9/25/12
to
gregz
Sep 25, 2012, 8:42:32 PM9/25/12
to
Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Sep 2012 19:33:20 GMT, mze...@eskimo.com (Mark Zenier)
> wrote:
>
>> I sure as hell wouldn't try carrying it in my luggage, but I've got
>> an old posting somewhere in my archive from some salesman at Cramonlin,
>> (made long before 9/11), that they broke off the distribution deal because
>> the American distributor was claiming they invented it. (There was also
>> some reformulation going on around that time for the spray can versions,
>> due to the Freon ban).
>
> <http://www.pitt.edu/~szekeres/caigcram.htm>
> <http://siber-sonic.com/electronics/caig.html>
> As far as I can determine, the only real difference between the Caig
> DeOxit product and the original Cramolin is that Cramolin contains
> about 5% oleic acid, whilc DeOxit does not. Oleic acid will remove
> oxidation products quite nicely, but should not be left on copper or
> brass contacts, which it will eventually corrode.
>
> The current version is DeOxit from Caig Labs. It comes in an amazing
> variety of forms, and is allegedly non-corrosive.
> <http://store.caig.com/s.nl/sc.2/.f>
> The MSDS data shows the active ingredients as a "trade secret". Oh
> well.
I never really tried it, but someday I'll find a use, for the old copper
> On Mon, 24 Sep 2012 19:33:20 GMT, mze...@eskimo.com (Mark Zenier)
> wrote:
>
>> I sure as hell wouldn't try carrying it in my luggage, but I've got
>> an old posting somewhere in my archive from some salesman at Cramonlin,
>> (made long before 9/11), that they broke off the distribution deal because
>> the American distributor was claiming they invented it. (There was also
>> some reformulation going on around that time for the spray can versions,
>> due to the Freon ban).
>
> <http://www.pitt.edu/~szekeres/caigcram.htm>
> <http://siber-sonic.com/electronics/caig.html>
> As far as I can determine, the only real difference between the Caig
> DeOxit product and the original Cramolin is that Cramolin contains
> about 5% oleic acid, whilc DeOxit does not. Oleic acid will remove
> oxidation products quite nicely, but should not be left on copper or
> brass contacts, which it will eventually corrode.
>
> The current version is DeOxit from Caig Labs. It comes in an amazing
> variety of forms, and is allegedly non-corrosive.
> <http://store.caig.com/s.nl/sc.2/.f>
> The MSDS data shows the active ingredients as a "trade secret". Oh
> well.
impregnated grease from Germany. Reddish in color, of course.
Greg
gregz
Sep 25, 2012, 10:46:16 PM9/25/12
to
Greg
Cydrome Leader
Sep 26, 2012, 2:05:14 AM9/26/12
to
electrical problems, ranging from harness fires to simple stuff
like headlight connectors burning out. They just don't get it.
I'd steer clear away from anything german+automotive+electrical.
Cydrome Leader
Sep 26, 2012, 2:06:31 AM9/26/12
to
it's basically lactic acid at this point. The removed the good stuff
from it.
Adrian Tuddenham
Sep 26, 2012, 5:03:00 AM9/26/12
to
all that bad but the overall system looks as though it was designed by
someone on a 'work experience' course having a bad day.
--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk
Cydrome Leader
Sep 26, 2012, 12:52:24 PM9/26/12
to
West Germany as well as the US version that were completely designed and
made in the USA just after that, around 1990.
The german stuff is as you'd expect, overly complex with everything on din
rails, but lots of tiny ones, there's stuff cabled tied up to the point
you can't trace anything and lots of the cables aren't even labelled. And
of course, since it's german, they use slotted screws for everything so
everything is marred up from screwdrivers slipping all over the place.
They do still work, with mostly new timers and relays.
The american stuff is far superior. There's just one control board,
everything is marked and the nothing is 5 times too large because stuff
isn't forced to clip onto those rediculous DIN rails. They also decided to
not put half the relays on the control board, the other half on the inside
of the control panel and rest somewhere else.
It's just a more thought out design.
William Sommerwerck
Sep 26, 2012, 1:42:47 PM9/26/12
to
You have insulted meine Vorvatern.
Some years back, a neighbor asked me to help troubleshoot his Volkswagen
Golf. He had the service manual for several models, and we were definitely
looking at the right model, but we could not trace one of the wires -- the
one that seemed to be causing the problem.
Finally applying the Holmesian rule that, once you're eliminated the
impossible, whatever remains must be true, I suggested we look at the
schematics for other models -- and lo and behold, it turned out that the one
for the Golf was the wrong schematic.
So much for "German precision".
Some years back, a neighbor asked me to help troubleshoot his Volkswagen
Golf. He had the service manual for several models, and we were definitely
looking at the right model, but we could not trace one of the wires -- the
one that seemed to be causing the problem.
Finally applying the Holmesian rule that, once you're eliminated the
impossible, whatever remains must be true, I suggested we look at the
schematics for other models -- and lo and behold, it turned out that the one
for the Golf was the wrong schematic.
So much for "German precision".
Cydrome Leader
Sep 26, 2012, 3:58:51 PM9/26/12
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it's more abstact, like with electricity in wires or software, they're
lost.
japanese companies seem completely unable to product working software
either for some reason, unless it's a video game.
How people are raised to think and operate seems to vary like crazy
between countries, even though nobody will admit it.
I've really wondered why this is the case. It's not like the rest of the
world only produces top notch softare, but it's all better overall.
weird russian software cracking utilities are made with more finesse than
some big ticket programs from Hitachi, a company with more money than the
russian mafia could even dream of defrauding from anybody. I'd run out of
fingers pointing out glaring errors or UI anomolies in just a 45 seconds
with this one program alone.
JW
Sep 27, 2012, 5:24:55 AM9/27/12
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On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 19:58:51 +0000 (UTC) Cydrome Leader
<pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote in Message id:
<k3vmpq$8aa$1...@reader1.panix.com>:
>William Sommerwerck <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> You have insulted meine Vorvatern.
>>
>> Some years back, a neighbor asked me to help troubleshoot his Volkswagen
>> Golf. He had the service manual for several models, and we were definitely
>> looking at the right model, but we could not trace one of the wires -- the
>> one that seemed to be causing the problem.
>>
>> Finally applying the Holmesian rule that, once you're eliminated the
>> impossible, whatever remains must be true, I suggested we look at the
>> schematics for other models -- and lo and behold, it turned out that the one
>> for the Golf was the wrong schematic.
>>
>> So much for "German precision".
>
>If it's a machine and has moving parts, they're pretty good at stuff. If
>it's more abstact, like with electricity in wires or software, they're
>lost.
I'd make an exception with Rohde & Schwarz test equipment. Every piece
I've ever used or worked on was very well made.
<pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote in Message id:
<k3vmpq$8aa$1...@reader1.panix.com>:
>William Sommerwerck <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> You have insulted meine Vorvatern.
>>
>> Some years back, a neighbor asked me to help troubleshoot his Volkswagen
>> Golf. He had the service manual for several models, and we were definitely
>> looking at the right model, but we could not trace one of the wires -- the
>> one that seemed to be causing the problem.
>>
>> Finally applying the Holmesian rule that, once you're eliminated the
>> impossible, whatever remains must be true, I suggested we look at the
>> schematics for other models -- and lo and behold, it turned out that the one
>> for the Golf was the wrong schematic.
>>
>> So much for "German precision".
>
>If it's a machine and has moving parts, they're pretty good at stuff. If
>it's more abstact, like with electricity in wires or software, they're
>lost.
I've ever used or worked on was very well made.
Jeff Liebermann
Sep 27, 2012, 11:39:25 AM9/27/12
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On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 00:42:32 +0000 (UTC), gregz <ze...@comcast.net>
wrote:
>I never really tried it, but someday I'll find a use, for the old copper
>impregnated grease from Germany. Reddish in color, of course.
Grease is normally a tolerable insulator. Many rotating devices are
capable to generating sufficient static electricity to create small
spark between the bearing surfaces. That eventually pits the bearings
and causes failure. To prevent arcing, greases are often made
conductive by adding graphite.
<http://www.nyelubricants.com/products/elec_conductive.shtml>
However, for applications where the bearing is expected to actually
conduct some current and/or some heat, copper is used. You can get it
at the auto shop as anti-seize:
<http://www.permatex.com/products/automotive/lubricants/specialty_lubricants/Permatex_Copper_Anti-Seize_Lubricant_b.htm>
or:
<http://store.caig.com/s.nl/it.A/id.1598/.f?sc=2&category=185>
Lots of applications. I sometimes use it for lubricating the bearings
or bushings in adjustable capacitors and potentiometers.
Note that there are different types of copper used. For
non-lubricating applications, random dust is fine. For anything that
moves or requires electrical conductivity, flakes are required. You
can test for which one with an ohm-guesser. The dust is not
conductive. The flakes overlap and are therefore conductive.
wrote:
>I never really tried it, but someday I'll find a use, for the old copper
>impregnated grease from Germany. Reddish in color, of course.
capable to generating sufficient static electricity to create small
spark between the bearing surfaces. That eventually pits the bearings
and causes failure. To prevent arcing, greases are often made
conductive by adding graphite.
<http://www.nyelubricants.com/products/elec_conductive.shtml>
However, for applications where the bearing is expected to actually
conduct some current and/or some heat, copper is used. You can get it
at the auto shop as anti-seize:
<http://www.permatex.com/products/automotive/lubricants/specialty_lubricants/Permatex_Copper_Anti-Seize_Lubricant_b.htm>
or:
<http://store.caig.com/s.nl/it.A/id.1598/.f?sc=2&category=185>
Lots of applications. I sometimes use it for lubricating the bearings
or bushings in adjustable capacitors and potentiometers.
Note that there are different types of copper used. For
non-lubricating applications, random dust is fine. For anything that
moves or requires electrical conductivity, flakes are required. You
can test for which one with an ohm-guesser. The dust is not
conductive. The flakes overlap and are therefore conductive.
josephkk
Sep 30, 2012, 3:03:53 AM9/30/12
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On Sun, 23 Sep 2012 16:24:08 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
<grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
>I prefer household ammonia, followed by an isopropyl alcohol flush.
>
>Ammonia is a base, as is the electrolyte -- like dissolves like.
>
If you care to get more chemically correct ammonia is a weak acid.
?-)
<grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
>I prefer household ammonia, followed by an isopropyl alcohol flush.
>
>Ammonia is a base, as is the electrolyte -- like dissolves like.
>
If you care to get more chemically correct ammonia is a weak acid.
?-)
josephkk
Sep 30, 2012, 3:16:15 AM9/30/12
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slightly bent shape giving the molecule modest polarity combined with
strong hydrogen bonding capability. Superpure water used in several
applications like drug manufacture and semiconductor manufacture is known
to dissolve all metals and almost all plastics including PTFE Teflon.
Many good chemists call it the ultimate solvent for good reason.
?-)
josephkk
Sep 30, 2012, 3:26:40 AM9/30/12
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?-)
William Sommerwerck
Sep 30, 2012, 6:36:24 AM9/30/12
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>> Ammonia is a base, as is the electrolyte -- like dissolves like.
> If you care to get more chemically correct, ammonia is a weak acid.
I will leave that alone for the moment.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conjugate_acid
It's been almost 50 years since I took high-school chemistry. I was good at
it, but don't remember much about conjugate acids.
whit3rd
Sep 30, 2012, 5:37:40 PM9/30/12
to
On Tuesday, September 25, 2012 12:29:02 PM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> The current version is DeOxit from Caig Labs. It comes in an amazing
> variety of forms, and is allegedly non-corrosive.
Those 'forms' are mainly volatile solvents, the residue is the
> The current version is DeOxit from Caig Labs. It comes in an amazing
> variety of forms, and is allegedly non-corrosive.
same old stuff.
> The MSDS data shows the active ingredients as a "trade secret". Oh
> well.
liquid semiconductor that makes a tenacious film/coating.
Jeff Liebermann
Sep 30, 2012, 6:44:36 PM9/30/12
to
On Sun, 30 Sep 2012 14:37:40 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>On Tuesday, September 25, 2012 12:29:02 PM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > The current version is DeOxit from Caig Labs. It comes in an amazing
>> variety of forms, and is allegedly non-corrosive.
>
>Those 'forms' are mainly volatile solvents, the residue is the
>same old stuff.
I'm not so sure. The original Cramolin label also has its multiple
mutations:
<http://www.itwcp.de/cleaners.html>
The German safety sheet at:
<http://www.itwcp.de/detail-1011411-en.html?file=tl_files/downloads/cramolin/reiniger/contactlean-safety-data-sheet.pdf>
shows (slightly edited for spelling):
Isohexane : Aeromatic solvent carrier.
Propan-2-ol : Isopropyl alcohol
Aliphatic hydrocarbons : Probably ethylene
Paraffin waxes and Hydrocarbon waxes :
Carbon dioxide : Propellant
Kinda looks like Coleman camp fuel.
>> The MSDS data shows the active ingredients as a "trade secret". Oh
>> well.
>
>It isn't much of a secret; the patent dates back to late sixties; it's a
>liquid semiconductor that makes a tenacious film/coating.
I couldn't find a German patent. What's a liquid semiconductor?
wrote:
>On Tuesday, September 25, 2012 12:29:02 PM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > The current version is DeOxit from Caig Labs. It comes in an amazing
>> variety of forms, and is allegedly non-corrosive.
>
>Those 'forms' are mainly volatile solvents, the residue is the
>same old stuff.
mutations:
<http://www.itwcp.de/cleaners.html>
The German safety sheet at:
<http://www.itwcp.de/detail-1011411-en.html?file=tl_files/downloads/cramolin/reiniger/contactlean-safety-data-sheet.pdf>
shows (slightly edited for spelling):
Isohexane : Aeromatic solvent carrier.
Propan-2-ol : Isopropyl alcohol
Aliphatic hydrocarbons : Probably ethylene
Paraffin waxes and Hydrocarbon waxes :
Carbon dioxide : Propellant
Kinda looks like Coleman camp fuel.
>> The MSDS data shows the active ingredients as a "trade secret". Oh
>> well.
>
>It isn't much of a secret; the patent dates back to late sixties; it's a
>liquid semiconductor that makes a tenacious film/coating.
Guv Bob
Oct 1, 2012, 8:30:30 PM10/1/12
to
"josephkk" <joseph_...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:gkrf685bhe9frd5bi...@4ax.com...
I think he meant household, which is a base...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonia#Properties
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonia#Properties
josephkk
Oct 4, 2012, 11:56:05 PM10/4/12
to
Ammonia, including household varieties, have the same chemistry, an acid
with a KA of about -10 so it looks basic compared to other acids (even
distilled water), including carbonic acid (H2CO3 (soda pop) which fizzes
in the presence of strong acids.
?-)
William Sommerwerck
Oct 5, 2012, 7:48:27 AM10/5/12
to
"josephkk" <joseph_...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:v2ms6814io488b120...@4ax.com...
On Mon, 1 Oct 2012 17:30:30 -0700, "Guv Bob"
<guvbo...@yahooooooooooooooo.com> wrote:
>"josephkk" <joseph_...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:gkrf685bhe9frd5bi...@4ax.com...
>On Sun, 23 Sep 2012 16:24:08 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
><grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>> I prefer household ammonia, followed by an isopropyl alcohol flush.
>>> Ammonia is a base, as is the electrolyte -- like dissolves like.
>>> If you care to get more chemically correct ammonia is a weak acid.
<guvbo...@yahooooooooooooooo.com> wrote:
>"josephkk" <joseph_...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:gkrf685bhe9frd5bi...@4ax.com...
>On Sun, 23 Sep 2012 16:24:08 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
><grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>> I prefer household ammonia, followed by an isopropyl alcohol flush.
>>> Ammonia is a base, as is the electrolyte -- like dissolves like.
>>> If you care to get more chemically correct ammonia is a weak acid.
>> I think he meant household, which is a base...
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonia#Properties
> I am not talking about household ideas. I am talking technical chemistry.
> Ammonia, including household varieties, have the same chemistry, an acid
> with a KA of about -10 so it looks basic compared to other acids (even
> distilled water), including carbonic acid (H2CO3 (soda pop) which fizzes
> in the presence of strong acids.
> I think it's time for a chemist to step in and explain this. The argument
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonia#Properties
> I am not talking about household ideas. I am talking technical chemistry.
> Ammonia, including household varieties, have the same chemistry, an acid
> with a KA of about -10 so it looks basic compared to other acids (even
> distilled water), including carbonic acid (H2CO3 (soda pop) which fizzes
> in the presence of strong acids.
that an acid "looks basic" compared to stronger acids makes little sense to
me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid_dissociation_constant
Cydrome Leader
Oct 5, 2012, 1:59:25 PM10/5/12
to
whit3rd
Oct 6, 2012, 3:24:19 PM10/6/12
to
On Sunday, September 30, 2012 3:44:40 PM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Sep 2012 14:37:40 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
>
> wrote:
> >On Tuesday, September 25, 2012 12:29:02 PM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
> > > The current version is DeOxit from Caig Labs. It comes in an amazing
> >> variety of forms, and is allegedly non-corrosive.
> >Those 'forms' are mainly volatile solvents, the residue is the
> >same old stuff.
> On Sun, 30 Sep 2012 14:37:40 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
>
> wrote:
> >On Tuesday, September 25, 2012 12:29:02 PM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
> > > The current version is DeOxit from Caig Labs. It comes in an amazing
> >> variety of forms, and is allegedly non-corrosive.
> >Those 'forms' are mainly volatile solvents, the residue is the
> >same old stuff.
> >> The MSDS data shows the active ingredients as a "trade secret". Oh
> >> well.
> >It isn't much of a secret; the patent dates back to late sixties; it's a
> >liquid semiconductor that makes a tenacious film/coating.
>
>
>
> I couldn't find a German patent. What's a liquid semiconductor?
I'm looking at US patent 4696832; there are probably others, the patent
> >> well.
> >It isn't much of a secret; the patent dates back to late sixties; it's a
> >liquid semiconductor that makes a tenacious film/coating.
>
>
>
> I couldn't find a German patent. What's a liquid semiconductor?
refers to prior use of these materials. It's a long-chain molecule with decorations,
so the 'formula' is complex (mainly lots of different chain lengths).
Semiconductors have few free charge carriers, but low electric fields cause
breakdown (really, charge injection at metal contacts). So, that's the kind of
behavior this liquid is engineered for. In thin sections (one micron) it's
just about like a conductor, but in long tracks (one millimeter) it insulates.
The nonlinearity of its conduction makes it suitable for sloshing onto
insulating surfaces.
Jeff Liebermann
Oct 7, 2012, 11:12:11 PM10/7/12
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On Sat, 6 Oct 2012 12:24:19 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>> I couldn't find a German patent. What's a liquid semiconductor?
>I'm looking at US patent 4696832; there are probably others, the patent
>refers to prior use of these materials. It's a long-chain molecule with decorations,
>so the 'formula' is complex (mainly lots of different chain lengths).
<http://www.google.com/patents/US4696832>
>Semiconductors have few free charge carriers, but low electric fields cause
>breakdown (really, charge injection at metal contacts). So, that's the kind of
>behavior this liquid is engineered for. In thin sections (one micron) it's
>just about like a conductor, but in long tracks (one millimeter) it insulates.
>The nonlinearity of its conduction makes it suitable for sloshing onto
>insulating surfaces.
Thanks. That makes sense. I was assuming it was some kind of
directional semiconductor, such as in a liquid diode.
<http://ilyam.org/CR-ROM_IYPT_1999/16_Liquid_diode_Austria_I_61-73_IYPT_1999.pdf>
Looks like the contact coating is still a liquid even at the molecular
plating thickness. My guess is that the liquid displaces a higher
resistance oxide layer with a more conductive "liquid" layer thereby
enhancing conductivity. Nice.
wrote:
>> I couldn't find a German patent. What's a liquid semiconductor?
>I'm looking at US patent 4696832; there are probably others, the patent
>refers to prior use of these materials. It's a long-chain molecule with decorations,
>so the 'formula' is complex (mainly lots of different chain lengths).
>Semiconductors have few free charge carriers, but low electric fields cause
>breakdown (really, charge injection at metal contacts). So, that's the kind of
>behavior this liquid is engineered for. In thin sections (one micron) it's
>just about like a conductor, but in long tracks (one millimeter) it insulates.
>The nonlinearity of its conduction makes it suitable for sloshing onto
>insulating surfaces.
directional semiconductor, such as in a liquid diode.
<http://ilyam.org/CR-ROM_IYPT_1999/16_Liquid_diode_Austria_I_61-73_IYPT_1999.pdf>
Looks like the contact coating is still a liquid even at the molecular
plating thickness. My guess is that the liquid displaces a higher
resistance oxide layer with a more conductive "liquid" layer thereby
enhancing conductivity. Nice.
William Sommerwerck
Oct 8, 2012, 6:33:43 AM10/8/12
to
Thanks for the info about Tweak.
I have a tiny bottle, which I only used on my pickup lugs.
I've wondered of what use it is, when you (presumably) get quantum
tunneling, whether or not Tweak is a "conductor".
I have a tiny bottle, which I only used on my pickup lugs.
I've wondered of what use it is, when you (presumably) get quantum
tunneling, whether or not Tweak is a "conductor".
Cydrome Leader
Oct 8, 2012, 2:40:44 PM10/8/12
to
slosh on your DIP, SIPP and ZIP memory chips to make them not error out in
their sockets. The stuff was sold as being super magical and ultra
engineered magic. Just pressing stuff back into their sockets always
worked just fine for me.
Michael A. Terrell
Oct 9, 2012, 10:55:51 AM10/9/12
to
Cydrome Leader wrote:
>
> over 20 years ago in the US, they sold some amazingly expensive liquid to
> slosh on your DIP, SIPP and ZIP memory chips to make them not error out in
> their sockets. The stuff was sold as being super magical and ultra
> engineered magic. Just pressing stuff back into their sockets always
> worked just fine for me.
wipe off enough oxidation for temporary operation, like wiggling the
knob on a dirty TV tuner when they were mechanical.
Phil Hobbs
Oct 9, 2012, 4:03:17 PM10/9/12
to
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net
Cydrome Leader
Oct 9, 2012, 5:19:57 PM10/9/12
to
bad they never made junky IC sockets that when vibrated and temperature
cycled would worked the leads in into the socket and not away from it.
Cydrome Leader
Oct 9, 2012, 5:22:00 PM10/9/12
to
days are over. we've moved onto exploding capacitors instead.
Guv Bob
Oct 26, 2012, 7:34:57 PM10/26/12
to
"josephkk" <joseph_...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:v2ms6814io488b120...@4ax.com...
I probably missed the conversation by now.... This is a good discussion.
You are correct if you are talking about relative acidity - any compound with a hydrogen bond can be considered either acidic or basic:
http://chemed.chem.purdue.edu/genchem/topicreview/bp/bronsted/bronsted.html
One example is the Degussa process reacts NH3 and CH4, where ammonia acts as an acid....
http://jack.ecosse.org/design/98-9/design98/data/reports/4wk/BMA-prog.html
Likewise, compared with most other acidic gases and liquids, ammonia acts as a base. Like this experiment shows when you mix gaseous HCl and NH3....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0M-Q65VQHs
And so, there you have it! Everybody wins!
Bob
PS -- Whut dew I win?
You are correct if you are talking about relative acidity - any compound with a hydrogen bond can be considered either acidic or basic:
http://chemed.chem.purdue.edu/genchem/topicreview/bp/bronsted/bronsted.html
One example is the Degussa process reacts NH3 and CH4, where ammonia acts as an acid....
http://jack.ecosse.org/design/98-9/design98/data/reports/4wk/BMA-prog.html
Likewise, compared with most other acidic gases and liquids, ammonia acts as a base. Like this experiment shows when you mix gaseous HCl and NH3....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0M-Q65VQHs
And so, there you have it! Everybody wins!
Bob
PS -- Whut dew I win?
Guv Bob
Oct 26, 2012, 7:52:06 PM10/26/12
to
"Guv Bob" <guvbo...@yahooooooooooooooo.com> wrote in message news:UIOdnXEO9eXdgxbN...@earthlink.com...
===
Now I wish I hadn't posted this...... so here's the warning...
DANGER: DO NOT DO THIS HCl - NH3 experiment -- or mix ammonia with anything. The white 'smoke' in that video is actually super fine ammonium chloride powder. All 3 of these chemicals can burn your skin or cause permanent damage to lungs, etc. And if you spill any of these, your mama (or the lovely wife) will kill you -- if you live through it.
Now I wish I hadn't posted this...... so here's the warning...
DANGER: DO NOT DO THIS HCl - NH3 experiment -- or mix ammonia with anything. The white 'smoke' in that video is actually super fine ammonium chloride powder. All 3 of these chemicals can burn your skin or cause permanent damage to lungs, etc. And if you spill any of these, your mama (or the lovely wife) will kill you -- if you live through it.
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