ST 251 -1 Seagate 40 Mbyte hard drive repair
Falstaff
>What I will try to do is open the harddisk and put the plattsers (with my data)
>in another drive.
>Dust is no problem because I can go in a clean, dust free room.
>Anybody experience in this area?
Try some room that you can clean before you open the drive, e.g. the
bathroom (with all dusty surfaces removed), rinse the walls with water
before you begin.
Make sure the platters are dry when you move them to another drive, and
move the heads to the innermost track. You could try to wipe the platters
carefully with some ethanol. Close the unit, and try to block the
head positioning stepper motor and then power the drive up. If all's well
the drive will start spinning. Keep it running this way for some time
(hours? a day, perhaps) so that all dust in the enclosure can
settle on the filter that is inside the box.
When all's well, unblock the stepper motor, and see if it all worked.
Perhaps someone on sci.electronics.repair has some more ideas.
Frank
--
The famous GIICM now on line: http://www.xs4all.nl/~falstaff/GIICM.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Frank A. Vorstenbosch +31-(70)-355 5241 fals...@xs4all.nl
Samuel M. Goldwasser
>marc.m...@rug.ac.be (Marc martens) writes:
>
>>What I will try to do is open the harddisk and put the plattsers (with my data)
>>in another drive.
>>Dust is no problem because I can go in a clean, dust free room.
>>Anybody experience in this area?
>
>Try some room that you can clean before you open the drive, e.g. the
>bathroom (with all dusty surfaces removed), rinse the walls with water
>before you begin.
>
Cleanliness is important but no need to become paranois about dust.
We have taken the covers off of much fancier drives without immediate
problems (or long term possibly, but these were sacrificial disks
in any case).
I would be concerned that track and sector alignment will not be
valid after the transplant, however. I don't know what these drives
use to reference the sector position. Also, I don't expect that
the radial position of track 0 is necessarily exactly the same between
different drives.
That data better be very important!
I am assuming the original problem was a bad motor or heads?
--- sam
A.R. Duell
>marc.m...@rug.ac.be (Marc martens) writes:
>>What I will try to do is open the harddisk and put the plattsers (with my data)
>>in another drive.
>>Dust is no problem because I can go in a clean, dust free room.
>>Anybody experience in this area?
>Try some room that you can clean before you open the drive, e.g. the
>bathroom (with all dusty surfaces removed), rinse the walls with water
>before you begin.
Actually, the least of your problems is likely to be dust - especially if
you have access to a clean room. If you don't, then keep dust to a
minimum, and a trick I've used a couple of times is to assemble the drive
without the top cover, and then hold it in the filtererd air stream from
an old demountable drive (I have such drives on my PDP11's). Let clean
air blow over it for about 5 minutes, fit the cover (still holding it in
the air stream), and screw it down. If the drive then works, back it up
_at once_.
The big problems are going to be head alignment, and spindle alignment.
The latter problem is due to the fact that IIRC the index sensor in these
drives is in the spindle motor. If the platters move relative to the
spindle (or if they're moved to a new spindle, you loose the index
position, and the data becomes unrecoverable (on a lot of controllers).
The former problem is due to the fact that the heads were never aligned
that accurately in the first place. They didn't need to be - the same
heads would always read and write the same platters. You'll have to
dismantle the head assembly to remove or insert the platters, and the
chances of getting the heads aligned correctly is nil. These drives (I
think) used a stepper motor as a head postioner, so there's no real way
to tweak it.
AFAIK, there's no electronics inside the HDA, so if you're hoping for a
trivial electronic fault, you're out of luck.
Powering it up when wet without opening it (especially if you had a clean
room) was a bad idea. Water contamination of the disks may have caused at
least one head to crash :-(
>Frank
--
-tony
ar...@eng.cam.ac.uk
The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill
Sam Goldwasser
> marc.m...@rug.ac.be (Marc martens) writes:
> >What I will try to do is open the harddisk and put the plattsers (with my data)
> >in another drive.
> >Dust is no problem because I can go in a clean, dust free room.
> >Anybody experience in this area?
You should be fine. We have run much more critical disks with the covers
off in our not particularly clean lab without short term problems.
However, I do not know if what you are proposing will work due to the
differences in alignment between the two drives. They were not set up
for interchange so the radial head position may differ. Also, the sector
reference may be off on the multiple patters if it is not actaully encoded
in the tracks.
--- sam
Matthew Fries
>You should be fine. We have run much more critical disks with the covers
>off in our not particularly clean lab without short term problems.
>
>However, I do not know if what you are proposing will work due to the
>differences in alignment between the two drives. They were not set up
>for interchange so the radial head position may differ. Also, the sector
>reference may be off on the multiple patters if it is not actaully encoded
>in the tracks.
>
>--- sam
Hmmm.... Apparently Hard drives are not as fragile as I have been led
to believe. I understood that they were like CRT's -- Break the seal
enough for the vacuum to get out, and you're through. I wonder what
sort of room in your house (excluding a clean room) you could go into
that would be dust-free enough. I see dust everywhere in my house.
Outside? No, too much pollen and (lately) snow.
The former owner of the place where I work has a slightly used
portable clean room for sale. It apparently has filters and air pumps,
but all the wiring has been chopped off. I think he was asking about
$25,000 for it, but at the time, I couldn't think of a use for it
(except to play E.T.).
Jonathan M. Elson
: marc.m...@rug.ac.be (Marc martens) writes:
: >What I will try to do is open the harddisk and put the plattsers (with my data)
: >in another drive.
: >Dust is no problem because I can go in a clean, dust free room.
: >Anybody experience in this area?
I doubt you can get this to work. The problem is radial alignment of the
platters. The ID of the platters is a few thousandths of an inch larger
than the hub OD. Therefore, the platters will not be exactly centered,
and the tracks will not stay under the heads. Obviously, the head servo
can't follow a track that is wobbling 60 times/sec. Oh, but that old
clunker doesn't have a servo - just a stepper. So, it just won't see
the right data. If you can get the whole platter/hub assembly off the
motor and deckplate, then you might have a chance. You will need an
oscilloscope, and select the drive to track 0. Then move the stepper
motor until the recovered clock looks clean from track zero. You can
identify track zero, because as you realign the motor, there won't be
any more data tracks one way, and you'll see data tracks slip by going
the other way. Of course, the handling of the platter assembly will
almost guarantee the destruction of the data surfaces. You will have to
find out how seagate unloads the heads and swings the access arm out of
the pack area. This may require disassembling the head positioning
mechanism. I'm sure they had custom tools to do this. A head lifter and
some kind of pad to put under the heads so they don't scrape the platter.
There is something to be said for swapping drive electronics from a good
drive to a bad one, in hopes of recovering data. I have had some success
with this.
I once realigned a dropped 14" disk pack, so I could read the data. this
was a track servo drive with only one platter, and so it was possible to
keep readjusting the centering of the one platter until the drive would
read the data. I don't think this has much chance of working with a multi-
platter drive, without the most sophisticated equipment.
There are companies that make a business of data recovery.
Sam Goldwasser
> Hmmm.... Apparently Hard drives are not as fragile as I have been led
> to believe. I understood that they were like CRT's -- Break the seal
> enough for the vacuum to get out, and you're through. I wonder what
> sort of room in your house (excluding a clean room) you could go into
> that would be dust-free enough. I see dust everywhere in my house.
> Outside? No, too much pollen and (lately) snow.
Actually, snow makes for a nice dust free environment. When is the last time
you changed the air filter on your snowthrower? Actually, many don't have
air filters. However, too cold and moist.
I would guess the bathroom. It is the one room (well maybe also the
kitchen depending on who does your housecleaning) that gets pretty well
cleaned regularly (no maid and butler jokes, please).
> The former owner of the place where I work has a slightly used
> portable clean room for sale. It apparently has filters and air pumps,
> but all the wiring has been chopped off. I think he was asking about
> $25,000 for it, but at the time, I couldn't think of a use for it
> (except to play E.T.).
Might be a good investment to restore a $0 hard drive. But then, the
data is probably priceless (or worthless?).
--- sam
Jim Novack
problem is, but I had two ST-251 drives that had stiction problems-they
would not spin up. I was told this was characteristic of these drives. I
got both of them working by WHACKING them-turning on the computer and
giving it a whack with my fist on the top of the case. If I remember
correctly, I would turn on the computer, get the dreaded "non system disk"
error, then I would whack it, and I could hear the beast spin up and it
would boot. If you try this, it would be good to have some back-up system
in place-it might not work at all--it might work only once--it might
completely wreck it.
Good luck!
--
The opinions expressed here are mine, and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer.
Ian Stirling
: I didn't see the begining of this thread, so I do not know what the
: problem is, but I had two ST-251 drives that had stiction problems-they
: would not spin up. I was told this was characteristic of these drives. I
: got both of them working by WHACKING them-turning on the computer and
: giving it a whack with my fist on the top of the case. If I remember
: correctly, I would turn on the computer, get the dreaded \"non system disk\"
: error, then I would whack it, and I could hear the beast spin up and it
: would boot. If you try this, it would be good to have some back-up system
: in place-it might not work at all--it might work only once--it might
: completely wreck it.
this will almost certainly kill the drive, you got lucky, a slightly
more sane method is to connect up the power cable (not the data connector)
and as you switch on the power, twist the drive violently in the same
axis as the discs normally spin, if it dosen't start, try a couple of times,
then a couple in the other direction.
If this gets the drive spining, and it'll now spin up without violence,
you can install as normal, otherwise, get it started, get the data-connector
ready switch off, stick connector in, switch on. Or you can leave the data
connector on while starting, it just gives you less freedom, and it's
a bad idea to partially pull out the connector with power on.
You might also try heating the drive to 45C, then trying to start, and
cooling to 10C (leave to stabilise for at least 1 hour at both temps.
Ian Stirling.
: Good luck!
Jerry Witalka
drive that suffered from periodic stcktion by whacking it or raising the
compter case 6" and dropping it for a year and the drive still works!
I wouldn't keep any data I couldn't afford to loose on this drive, but I
still use it for backups in an emergency. By the way, the sticktion
effect is strong enough that people have ripped the heads off the
actuators by "twisting the drive violently in the same axis as the discs
normally spin". I think whacking the drive is actually easier on the
drive.
Jerry
Sam Goldwasser
Note that for many drives - ST251 included - the spindle is accessible
from the bottom. Violence is not needed, just gram the spindle and
twist a fraction of a turn (gently).
--- sam
Raymond Carlsen
> drive that suffered from periodic stcktion by whacking it or raising the
> compter case 6" and dropping it for a year and the drive still works!
> I wouldn't keep any data I couldn't afford to loose on this drive, but I
> still use it for backups in an emergency. By the way, the sticktion
> effect is strong enough that people have ripped the heads off the
> actuators by "twisting the drive violently in the same axis as the discs
> normally spin". I think whacking the drive is actually easier on the
> drive.
>
I've heard that the problem was stiction... heads sticking to the
disk, but my opinion is the spindle motor bearings are tight (lack of
lube?). I have had stuck drives that I got going again by reaching in
and moving the flywheel (on the few that have it exposed enough to do
that, like the older FUJI MFM), and it feels like a sticky bearing
until I run it back and forth a bit... then it always starts up. If the
head actually stuck to the disk, it seems like it would do -severe-
damage to both, at least making it unreadable in that spot. How many
people park their older drives. If it happened a few times, there would
be nothing left. I've had good luck starting up stuck drives by giving
them a quick twist at boot time. They didn't respond to being pounded
on. One Quantam IDE 40 Meg has run that way for years. It sits -on top-
of the 286. Boy, am I desparate, or what?
Ray Carlsen Univ. of Washington, Seattle
*** Chance favors the prepared mind. ***
Robert Blackshaw
writes...
on more Segate drives than I care to remember, I used neither approach.
These people always left their PCs on and on weekends when a storm
would take out the local power, the drives would stick and not restart.
I would remove the drive and then remove the circuit board that covered
the motor. I would very slowly rotate the flywheel until I could feel
the stiction disappear. That was for the big full-height models, the
half-height 251s would respond to simply rotating the head assembly
motor to the parked position. No bangs, twists, or thumps.
Bob
>: --
>: The opinions expressed here are mine, and do not necessarily reflect those
of
>my employer.
>
>: Jim Novack
>: jl...@cornell.edu
>: 607-255-6528
>: 607-539-6277
--
Opinions expressed are those of the author and are copyrighted
RB & Associates - Consultants in Multimedia Teleconferencing
Mark Neff
>RE: stickion.
>--- sam
Another method that works for drives where the spindle is not
accessible is to remove the drive, hold it in the air horizontally,
and twist it several times back and forth in the direction the
platters rotate (it's all in the wrist). The inertia of the twisting
motion against the relatively heavy platters will most often times
loosen them, and the chance of damage is near zero. I used to use
this method often on ST-1144As to recover data before replacement.
Mark Neff (mn...@en.com)
Hivolt300
Rodime equivelent drives a day. They are essentially the same drive using
the same spindle technology, and almost identical circuitry. As to the
Origonal problem this is unknown, but as far as the spindle is concerned,
the Avg. life expectancy is only about 4 Years with daily start & stop.
Obviously they will live much longer than this for the most part if taken
care of. SMACKING or DROPING the drive may make it start when it doesn't
want heavily damages the surface of the disks so if the heads aren't
parked you can kiss your data goodbye. SHAKING the drive violently will
spin the platters, but also cause the heads to scrappe the surface of the
disks bacause the heads are thrown out of the parked position on many of
these type of drives(some contain a locking mechanism).ALSO, this type of
activity eventually causes the disks to be thrown out of balance causing
'WOW and FLUTTER', whitch can be seen on a scope. This can cause Eratic
random data loss.
Wanda M Desmond
mike button is depressed, it makes a motor-boating sound or a continous
tone. It does not recieve. All the lights light up (freq display, TX
light). Any ideas?
Thanks!
John