Flexible conduit outdoors
Richard Henry
My intent is to go from a breaker box on my deck into a tool shed I
built at one end of it to power one light. My intended route is along
the framework under the deck which is elevated about 2 feet off the
ground.
Martin Riddle
"Richard Henry" <pome...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b35d6394-aa23-4489...@z1g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
NEC 2008 says....
(FMC Flexible Metal Conduit)
348.12 Uses Not permitted. FMC shall not be used in the Following:
(1) Wet locations.
(2) in Hoistways, other than permitted in 620.21
(3) In storage battery rooms
(4) In any hazardous (classified) location except as permitted by other
articles in this code.
(5)Where exposed to materials having a deteriorating effect on the
installed conductors, such as oil or gasoline.
(6) Underground or embedded on poured concrete or aggregate.
(7) where subject to physical damage.
So no, not legal if used outdoors. Use PVC schedule 80 instead.
Cheers
Jim Thompson
With some kind of "plastic" insulation overlay it's used all over
Arizona for connecting a local breaker box to objects with some
vibration, such as air conditioning units and pool pumps.
For RH's use though, I would use PVC... but paint it with a good latex
paint, otherwise the UV will deteriorate it.
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
The only thing bipartisan in this country is hypocrisy
Charlie E.
Yes, there is a special outdoor flex cable, metal covered by grey
plastic. I used it to go from my junction box on the outside of my
house to the sauna's sub-panel for my sauna and pool and other outdoor
electrical. If you want to use rigid for some runs (any you do, if
you are going any distance. That stuff is expensive!) then use
schedule 80, the grey stuff, not the white stuff. It is UV resistant.
When in doubt, follow the NEC! ;-)
Charlie
Jim Thompson
wrote:
"UV resistant" starts turning black in a year or two in AZ :-(
Martin Riddle
"Jim Thompson" <To-Email-Use-Th...@My-Web-Site.com> wrote in
message news:98bgp5l4uurs9r62t...@4ax.com...
That�s called LFMC (Liquidtight Flexible metal conduit), which is
allowed outdoors. And more expensive than Schedule 80.
And called out for connecting pool pumps and such.
<http://books.google.com/books?id=im1rgZnFlMIC&pg=PT101&lpg=PT101&dq=pvc+coated+FMC&source=bl&ots=78An2-tBc9&sig=gbf_EySMmzBeGCaIgytNCWBQXkM&hl=en&ei=MDWYS7DXF4WplAelwpWQDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CCgQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=pvc%20coated%20FMC&f=false>
Don't know if the OP has that, generally the question stems from what
the person has easy and free access to.
Cheers
Jamie
Only if it does not go under ground and it has the plastic seal jacket..
This is called in most fields "Seal tite/tight" or "Liquid tight"
But the non jacketed types should not be out side or in corrosive areas.
PVC pipe for underground runs should be used.
Martin Riddle
"Jim Thompson" <To-Email-Use-Th...@My-Web-Site.com> wrote in
message news:1edgp5lkb7lh0uc64...@4ax.com...
Rustoleum's "Painters Touch" paint has very good UV tolerance. Painted
the Screen frames on Moms house about 10 years ago, and they are still
holding up. Also Glidden Endurance is THE Paint for outdoors. Not
available in the big chain stores, only the little guys carry it.
Cheers
D Yuniskis
> Is it legal to run flexible conduit outdoors?
Depends. Where are you? And, do you mean FMC or LFMC?
Here (US) LFMC is acceptable for use in wet, above-grade
locations (I think you also need compression fittings on
each end of the conduit).
> My intent is to go from a breaker box on my deck into a tool shed I
> built at one end of it to power one light. My intended route is along
> the framework under the deck which is elevated about 2 feet off the
> ground.
LFMC should be OK, there (check your local codebook).
I would advise a coating of paint just to cut down
on the inevitable deterioration that continuous sun exposure
*will* cause (most unpainted LFMC around here is "toasted"
on one side :> ). Almost any latex paint will do...
Paul Hovnanian P.E.
Why flex? Its expensive. Particularly the stuff permitted outdoors. If
its exposed, you probably should use EMT (metal conduit) with couplings
approved for wet locations. If the distance is considerable, you might
be able to transition to PVC under the deck. Your local inspector might
consider the 2 foot access as suitably protecting the conduit from
damage (and UV). That might save you a few bucks (keep in mind that the
wet location pull boxes and fittings at the transitions will eat up your
savings pretty fast.
--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:Pa...@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
Bloody typical, they've gone back to metric without telling us.
ehsjr
Some have assumed metallic conduit in their answers. Instead,
use liquidtight _nonmetallic_ flexible conduit, such as Carflex:
http://www.carlon.com/Brochures/7B1.pdf
Wonderful stuff, easy to work with and code compliant for you.
Ed
Michael A. Terrell
Tim Watts wrote:
>
> Richard Henry <pome...@hotmail.com>
> wibbled on Wednesday 10 March 2010 23:04
IP address: 71.137.0.47
Reverse DNS: adsl-71-137-0-47.dsl.sndg02.pacbell.net.
Reverse DNS authenticity: [Verified]
ASN: 7132
ASN Name: SBIS-AS
IP range connectivity: 6
Registrar (per ASN): ARIN
Country (per IP registrar): US [United States]
Country Currency: USD [United States Dollars]
Country IP Range: 71.128.0.0 to 71.255.255.255
Country fraud profile: Normal
City (per outside source): San Diego, California
Country (per outside source): US [United States]
Private (internal) IP? No
IP address registrar: whois.arin.net
Known Proxy? No
Link for WHOIS: 71.137.0.47
--
Greed is the root of all eBay.
Richard Henry
> Richard Henry <pomer...@hotmail.com>
> wibbled on Wednesday 10 March 2010 23:04
>
>
> --
> Tim Watts
>
> Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.
California USA
Michael A. Terrell
Tim Watts wrote:
>
> Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net>
> wibbled on Thursday 11 March 2010 08:57
> to guess :)
>
> We're not all in the US!
Does your country have a NEC?
Jim Thompson
>Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net>
> wibbled on Thursday 11 March 2010 15:44
>
>
>> Does your country have a NEC?
>>
>>
>
>We have a similar set of regulations, BS7671 aka The IEE Wiring Regulations,
>17th Edition.
>
>Although curiously, they are not statutory, meaning that an engineer could
>ignore them, though adherence to them would prove a good defence in court if
>anything when wrong.
>
>Another weirdness is that apparantly, we can choose to wire to any of the EU
>member states' regulations in order to satisfy Building Control, though they
>whole electrical thing has rather confused them anyway.
>
>I have heard of someone wiring to the German VDE100 regs (which allows power
>sockets in bathrooms) and having it stamped by their building inspector. Bit
>of a mess right now...
We (the US) can have outlets in bathrooms, but they must be GCFI
protected.
Michael A. Terrell
>
>
> > Does your country have a NEC?
> >
> >
>
> 17th Edition.
>
> Although curiously, they are not statutory, meaning that an engineer could
> ignore them, though adherence to them would prove a good defence in court if
> anything when wrong.
>
> Another weirdness is that apparantly, we can choose to wire to any of the EU
> member states' regulations in order to satisfy Building Control, though they
> whole electrical thing has rather confused them anyway.
>
> I have heard of someone wiring to the German VDE100 regs (which allows power
> sockets in bathrooms) and having it stamped by their building inspector. Bit
> of a mess right now...
What's the big deal with that? GCFI outlets in US bathrooms are
common, and some larger bathrooms have reqular outlets for a vacuum
cleaner or space heater.
D Yuniskis
> On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 16:02:06 +0000, Tim Watts <t...@dionic.net> wrote:
>
>> I have heard of someone wiring to the German VDE100 regs (which allows power
>> sockets in bathrooms) and having it stamped by their building inspector. Bit
>> of a mess right now...
>
> We (the US) can have outlets in bathrooms, but they must be GCFI
> protected.
Only on new works. The fallacy with all these regs is everything
is always grandfathered in. :-/
Paul Hovnanian P.E.
We figured it wasn't something in the third world. Or Richard would have
asked how to tap into his neighbor's panel. ;-)
--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:Pa...@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
Life is like an analogy.
Paul Hovnanian P.E.
>
[snip]
>
> We're not all in the US!
Patience. We'll get to you eventually.
--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:Pa...@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
Just say 'No' to Windows.
-- Department of Defenestration.
Jim Thompson
Some bigger bathrooms have an 1-1/2" "outlet" that you plug a vacuum
hose into :-)
John Larkin
>Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net>
> wibbled on Thursday 11 March 2010 15:44
>
>
>> Does your country have a NEC?
>>
>>
>
>We have a similar set of regulations, BS7671 aka The IEE Wiring Regulations,
>17th Edition.
>
>Although curiously, they are not statutory, meaning that an engineer could
>ignore them, though adherence to them would prove a good defence in court if
>anything when wrong.
>
>Another weirdness is that apparantly, we can choose to wire to any of the EU
>member states' regulations in order to satisfy Building Control, though they
>whole electrical thing has rather confused them anyway.
>
>I have heard of someone wiring to the German VDE100 regs (which allows power
>sockets in bathrooms) and having it stamped by their building inspector. Bit
>of a mess right now...
No power in bathrooms? Where do you plug in your electric heater, hair
dryer, wide-screen TV, vacuum cleaner, circular saw, or oscilloscope?
Barbaric.
I have an Epson wide-carriage matrix printer in my downstairs
bathroom, right next to the toilet.
John
D Yuniskis
John Larkin wrote:
> I have an Epson wide-carriage matrix printer in my downstairs
> bathroom, right next to the toilet.
Great for dispensing extra wide toilet paper!?
(with custom floral designs!)
The Brits are just *so* behind the times...
;-)
Michael A. Terrell
Jim Thompson wrote:
>
> On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 11:15:37 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
> <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >Tim Watts wrote:
> >>
> >> Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net>
> >> wibbled on Thursday 11 March 2010 15:44
> >>
> >>
> >> > Does your country have a NEC?
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> We have a similar set of regulations, BS7671 aka The IEE Wiring Regulations,
> >> 17th Edition.
> >>
> >> Although curiously, they are not statutory, meaning that an engineer could
> >> ignore them, though adherence to them would prove a good defence in court if
> >> anything when wrong.
> >>
> >> Another weirdness is that apparantly, we can choose to wire to any of the EU
> >> member states' regulations in order to satisfy Building Control, though they
> >> whole electrical thing has rather confused them anyway.
> >>
> >> I have heard of someone wiring to the German VDE100 regs (which allows power
> >> sockets in bathrooms) and having it stamped by their building inspector. Bit
> >> of a mess right now...
> >
> >
> > What's the big deal with that? GCFI outlets in US bathrooms are
> >common, and some larger bathrooms have reqular outlets for a vacuum
> >cleaner or space heater.
>
> Some bigger bathrooms have an 1-1/2" "outlet" that you plug a vacuum
> hose into :-)
Yes but some just provide the AC outlet, so you can choose your
'Weapons of Dirt Desruction'. ;-)
--
Lead free solder is Belgium's version of 'Hold my beer and watch this!'
Michael A. Terrell
Some are the size of a small bedroom.
Michael A. Terrell
That way you can read fresh source code in your 'Library?' ;-)
Michael A. Terrell
Tim Watts wrote:
>
> John Larkin <jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com>
> wibbled on Thursday 11 March 2010 16:58
Or a server rack, in the closet.
D Yuniskis
> Tim Watts wrote:
>> Not permitted here, unless you have a very large bathroom.
>
> Some are the size of a small bedroom.
<grin> When my other half visits one of her friends to
"paint together" (watercolor), they do so *in* her bathroom!
:)
Michael A. Terrell
>
> >
> > That way you can read fresh source code in your 'Library?' ;-)
> >
> >
>
>
> OK, I'll get me coat...
Go stand in the corner, young man!
Michael A. Terrell
>
> >
> > Or a server rack, in the closet.
> >
> >
>
>
> So, yes, a rack in the bog is OK.
No, I'm talking about a large linen closet in the master bathroom.
It's big enough to roll one of my enclosed relay racks into for my home
network.
Michael A. Terrell
Then you have to hose them down with a garden hose when they're done?
;-)
Jim Thompson
<mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>Tim Watts wrote:
>>
>> Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net>
>> wibbled on Thursday 11 March 2010 16:15
[snip]
>> >
>> > What's the big deal with that? GCFI outlets in US bathrooms are
>> > common, and some larger bathrooms have reqular outlets for a vacuum
>> > cleaner or space heater.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Not permitted here, unless you have a very large bathroom.
>
>
> Some are the size of a small bedroom.
Our master bathroom is the size of a small apartment... and the closet
is the size of most secondary bedrooms :-)
Jim Thompson
>John Larkin <jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com>
> wibbled on Thursday 11 March 2010 16:58
>
>
>> No power in bathrooms? Where do you plug in your electric heater, hair
>> dryer, wide-screen TV, vacuum cleaner, circular saw, or oscilloscope?
>
>Though seriously... A long long time ago, my father (Electrical Engineer,
>power specialist, worked for the London Electricity Board as was) was called
>to give expert opinion at an inquest.
>
>It centered around the death of a man who had balanced an open bar electric
>heater on the side of his well earthed bath (RCDs didn't much exist then).
>The inevitable happened. Not sure why they needed an expert opinion but
>there you go...
My wife likes to tell of the football jock in high school who took her
on a date and attempted to fondle her... she slapped him expertly and
he gave up.
A few weeks later he took a bath with his toob radio perched on the
edge of the tub. The final zap-p-p-p-p :-)
Poetic justice, but she's still pissed (even though that was like 54
years ago)... the high school erected a plaque in his honor, because
he was a football player :-(
Richard Henry
> > wibbled on Thursday 11 March 2010 16:58
>
> >> No power in bathrooms? Where do you plug in your electric heater, hair
> >> dryer, wide-screen TV, vacuum cleaner, circular saw, or oscilloscope?
>
> >Though seriously... A long long time ago, my father (Electrical Engineer,
> >power specialist, worked for the London Electricity Board as was) was called
> >to give expert opinion at an inquest.
>
> >It centered around the death of a man who had balanced an open bar electric
> >heater on the side of his well earthed bath (RCDs didn't much exist then).
> >The inevitable happened. Not sure why they needed an expert opinion but
> >there you go...
>
> My wife likes to tell of the football jock in high school who took her
> on a date and attempted to fondle her... she slapped him expertly and
> he gave up.
>
> A few weeks later he took a bath with his toob radio perched on the
> edge of the tub. The final zap-p-p-p-p :-)
>
> Poetic justice, but she's still pissed (even though that was like 54
> years ago)... the high school erected a plaque in his honor, because
> he was a football player :-(
No GFCI protection?
As part of the electrical upgrade which prompted this thread, I
replaced one of the breakers in the breaker box on the deck with an
arc-fault/ground-fault type.
D Yuniskis
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
> D Yuniskis wrote:
>
>> <grin> When my other half visits one of her friends to
>> "paint together" (watercolor), they do so *in* her bathroom!
>
> Then you have to hose them down with a garden hose when they're done?
> ;-)
I think that would make the paint run! :-/ (I think watercolors
remain "soluble" indefinitely?)
I simply can't imagine how they can get all those drawing tables
in there and room for chairs, etc. <shrug> Always seemed a waste,
to me, to have "finished space" in a home. More to keep clean,
decorate, pay taxes on, insure, etc.
I'd much rather a thousand square feet of *basement* that
doesn't raise taxes, doesn't require "dusting", furnishing,
etc. I wonder if they make "basement only" houses? (not just
below-grade)
Or, as my Chicago friends did: 2500 sq ft for an indoor
swimming pool (odd sensation to be swimming in a heated
pool while the snow is falling outside) -- though I wonder
what the insurance and taxes were on *that*! :-/ <shudder>
(at least you don't have to *dust* it!! :> )
Michael A. Terrell
Jim Thompson wrote:
>
> On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 12:28:22 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
> <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >Tim Watts wrote:
> >>
> >> Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net>
> >> wibbled on Thursday 11 March 2010 16:15
> [snip]
> >> >
> >> > What's the big deal with that? GCFI outlets in US bathrooms are
> >> > common, and some larger bathrooms have reqular outlets for a vacuum
> >> > cleaner or space heater.
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> Not permitted here, unless you have a very large bathroom.
> >
> >
> > Some are the size of a small bedroom.
>
> Our master bathroom is the size of a small apartment... and the closet
> is the size of most secondary bedrooms :-)
My place is over 45 years old, so the size is quite large for a home
this old. OTOH, my four workshops are 30'*40', 18'*28', 12'*24' and
12'*12'. On top of that, I have several empty bedrooms and a large TV
room, plus a small library.
Michael A. Terrell
D Yuniskis wrote:
>
> Hi Michael,
> Michael A. Terrell wrote:
> > D Yuniskis wrote:
> >
> >> <grin> When my other half visits one of her friends to
> >> "paint together" (watercolor), they do so *in* her bathroom!
> >
> > Then you have to hose them down with a garden hose when they're done?
> > ;-)
>
> I think that would make the paint run! :-/ (I think watercolors
> remain "soluble" indefinitely?)
Not their work, I was talking about to clean up them and the
bathroom. :)
> I simply can't imagine how they can get all those drawing tables
> in there and room for chairs, etc. <shrug> Always seemed a waste,
> to me, to have "finished space" in a home. More to keep clean,
> decorate, pay taxes on, insure, etc.
>
> I'd much rather a thousand square feet of *basement* that
> doesn't raise taxes, doesn't require "dusting", furnishing,
> etc. I wonder if they make "basement only" houses? (not just
> below-grade)
I always wanted one of the old, decommissioned missile silos so I
could really play 'Mad Scientist!'. ;-)
>
> Or, as my Chicago friends did: 2500 sq ft for an indoor
> swimming pool (odd sensation to be swimming in a heated
> pool while the snow is falling outside) -- though I wonder
> what the insurance and taxes were on *that*! :-/ <shudder>
> (at least you don't have to *dust* it!! :> )
Michael A. Terrell
Jim Thompson wrote:
>
> My wife likes to tell of the football jock in high school who took her
> on a date and attempted to fondle her... she slapped him expertly and
> he gave up.
>
> A few weeks later he took a bath with his toob radio perched on the
> edge of the tub. The final zap-p-p-p-p :-)
Tell her that I said it was 'Too bad about the poor radio'.
> Poetic justice, but she's still pissed (even though that was like 54
> years ago)... the high school erected a plaque in his honor, because
> he was a football player :-(
They always treat jerks as something special.
One of the football players at my high school thought he was
indestructable, till his car fell on him.
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
wrote:
>Jim Thompson wrote:
>> On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 16:02:06 +0000, Tim Watts <t...@dionic.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I have heard of someone wiring to the German VDE100 regs (which allows power
>>> sockets in bathrooms) and having it stamped by their building inspector. Bit
>>> of a mess right now...
>>
>> We (the US) can have outlets in bathrooms, but they must be GCFI
>> protected.
>
>Only on new works. The fallacy with all these regs is everything
>is always grandfathered in. :-/
Not always though code changes are usually grandfathered because retrofits can
be very expensive.
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
<mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
Our master bath in this house is about the size of my son's room in our first
house. The shower is larger than the floor space in the bathroom in that
house and we have 2 more bathrooms (3.5 vs 1.5).
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
wrote:
>Hi Michael,
>Michael A. Terrell wrote:
>> D Yuniskis wrote:
> >
>>> <grin> When my other half visits one of her friends to
>>> "paint together" (watercolor), they do so *in* her bathroom!
>>
>> Then you have to hose them down with a garden hose when they're done?
>> ;-)
>
>I think that would make the paint run! :-/ (I think watercolors
>remain "soluble" indefinitely?)
>
>I simply can't imagine how they can get all those drawing tables
>in there and room for chairs, etc. <shrug> Always seemed a waste,
>to me, to have "finished space" in a home. More to keep clean,
>decorate, pay taxes on, insure, etc.
>
>I'd much rather a thousand square feet of *basement* that
>doesn't raise taxes, doesn't require "dusting", furnishing,
>etc. I wonder if they make "basement only" houses? (not just
>below-grade)
I'd like to have a basement too, but SWMBO nixed the only house we looked at
that had a basement - 2300sq. ft. of basement.
>Or, as my Chicago friends did: 2500 sq ft for an indoor
>swimming pool (odd sensation to be swimming in a heated
>pool while the snow is falling outside) -- though I wonder
>what the insurance and taxes were on *that*! :-/ <shudder>
>(at least you don't have to *dust* it!! :> )
Just think of the mold and rot issues. Yuck!
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
<To-Email-Use-Th...@My-Web-Site.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 17:45:34 +0000, Tim Watts <t...@dionic.net> wrote:
>
>>John Larkin <jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com>
>> wibbled on Thursday 11 March 2010 16:58
>>
>>
>>> No power in bathrooms? Where do you plug in your electric heater, hair
>>> dryer, wide-screen TV, vacuum cleaner, circular saw, or oscilloscope?
>>
>>Though seriously... A long long time ago, my father (Electrical Engineer,
>>power specialist, worked for the London Electricity Board as was) was called
>>to give expert opinion at an inquest.
>>
>>It centered around the death of a man who had balanced an open bar electric
>>heater on the side of his well earthed bath (RCDs didn't much exist then).
>>The inevitable happened. Not sure why they needed an expert opinion but
>>there you go...
>
>My wife likes to tell of the football jock in high school who took her
>on a date and attempted to fondle her... she slapped him expertly and
>he gave up.
So, did she break your arm? ;-)
>A few weeks later he took a bath with his toob radio perched on the
>edge of the tub. The final zap-p-p-p-p :-)
How did you manage that?
>Poetic justice, but she's still pissed (even though that was like 54
>years ago)... the high school erected a plaque in his honor, because
>he was a football player :-(
Buy her a plaque next to his.
Richard Henry
> Is it legal to run flexible conduit outdoors?
>
> My intent is to go from a breaker box on my deck into a tool shed I
> built at one end of it to power one light. My intended route is along
> the framework under the deck which is elevated about 2 feet off the
> ground.
Thanks to all this fine discussion I have decided to run PVC conduit
for the added circuits.
Jim Backus
wrote:
> Is it legal to run flexible conduit outdoors?
>
It would have been helpful to know what country you were in.
Regulations are almost certainly differ from one country to another.
--
Jim Backus running OS/2 Warp 3 & 4, Mac OS X and Win98SE
bona fide replies to j <dot> backus <the circle thingy> jita <dot>
demon <dot> co <dot> uk
Michael A. Terrell
"k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz" wrote:
>
> Michael A. Terrell wrote:
> >
>
> Our master bath in this house is about the size of my son's room in our first
> house. The shower is larger than the floor space in the bathroom in that
> house and we have 2 more bathrooms (3.5 vs 1.5).
One of mine is about 12' * 12', the other is 7' * 14'
Michael A. Terrell
Jim Backus wrote:
>
> On Wed, 10 Mar 2010 23:04:59 UTC, Richard Henry <pome...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Is it legal to run flexible conduit outdoors?
> >
>
> It would have been helpful to know what country you were in.
> Regulations are almost certainly differ from one country to another.
It's helpful to know how to read headers so you can find out, too.
JosephKK
>
>
>"Richard Henry" <pome...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:b35d6394-aa23-4489...@z1g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
>> Is it legal to run flexible conduit outdoors?
>>
>> My intent is to go from a breaker box on my deck into a tool shed I
>> built at one end of it to power one light. My intended route is along
>> the framework under the deck which is elevated about 2 feet off the
>> ground.
>
>
>NEC 2008 says....
>(FMC Flexible Metal Conduit)
>
>348.12 Uses Not permitted. FMC shall not be used in the Following:
>(1) Wet locations.
>(2) in Hoistways, other than permitted in 620.21
>(3) In storage battery rooms
>(4) In any hazardous (classified) location except as permitted by other
>articles in this code.
>(5)Where exposed to materials having a deteriorating effect on the
>installed conductors, such as oil or gasoline.
>(6) Underground or embedded on poured concrete or aggregate.
>(7) where subject to physical damage.
>
>
>So no, not legal if used outdoors. Use PVC schedule 80 instead.
>
>
>Cheers
>
>
See also the differences in usage rules between FMC and LFMC.
ehsjr
> ehsjr <eh...@nospamverizon.net>
> wibbled on Thursday 11 March 2010 05:36
>
>
>>Richard Henry wrote:
>>
>>>Is it legal to run flexible conduit outdoors?
>>>
>>>My intent is to go from a breaker box on my deck into a tool shed I
>>>built at one end of it to power one light. My intended route is along
>>>the framework under the deck which is elevated about 2 feet off the
>>>ground.
>>
>>use liquidtight _nonmetallic_ flexible conduit, such as Carflex:
>>http://www.carlon.com/Brochures/7B1.pdf
>>Wonderful stuff, easy to work with and code compliant for you.
>>
>>Ed
>
>
> Just out of interest, don't you have anything like this in the USA:
>
> http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/SW2dot5slash2.html
>
> It is what we would use and can be run anywhere - surface clipped, under
> ground without piping, buried in the building structure.
>
> The steel wire armouring is of course earthed hence the protection, both
> electrical and mechanical.
>
I don't know for sure - but I doubt it, based on what I read at the url
you posted: "These cables are provided with mechanical protection are
therefore suitable for external use and direct burial."
Our type "AC" (Armored Cable) is not suitable for direct burial
per the NEC, and our type "UF" (Underground Feeder) cable is
suitable for direct burial per the NEC, but is not armored.
Ed
Jim Backus
<mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > It would have been helpful to know what country you were in.
> > Regulations are almost certainly differ from one country to another.
>
>
> It's helpful to know how to read headers so you can find out, too.
>
>
Header for OP:
Path:
s01-b017!cyclone02.ams2.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!f
eeder.news-service.com!feeder.erje.net!newsfeed.straub-nv.de!proxad.ne
t!feeder1-2.proxad.net!74.125.46.134.MISMATCH!postnews.google.com!z1g2
000prc.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
From: Richard Henry <pome...@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Flexible conduit outdoors
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 15:04:59 -0800 (PST)
Organization: http://groups.google.com
Lines: 6
Message-ID:
<b35d6394-aa23-4489...@z1g2000prc.googlegroups.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 71.137.0.47
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
X-Trace: posting.google.com 1268262299 16074 127.0.0.1 (10 Mar 2010
23:04:59 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: groups...@google.com
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 23:04:59 +0000 (UTC)
Complaints-To: groups...@google.com
Injection-Info: z1g2000prc.googlegroups.com; posting-host=71.137.0.47;
posting-account=ML9J7goAAAAS6N3k57S2qk4WxczSttuL
User-Agent: G2/1.0
X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1;
GTB6.4;
.NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648; .NET CLR
3.5.21022),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe)
Xref: Hurricane-Charley sci.electronics.design:693690
X-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 23:04:59 UTC (s01-b017)
Perhaps you would be kind enough to point out which part of the header
gives unambiguously and without chance of forgery the coutry of
origin?
You're being absurd!
Michael A. Terrell
>
> Perhaps you would be kind enough to point out which part of the header
> gives unambiguously and without chance of forgery the coutry of
> origin?
>
> You're being absurd!
So, you think someone will forge their IP address to access Google
groups? The fact that they use Google group generally means they don't
know how. OTOH, if you are that paranoid, it's your problem. Why would
anyone want to fake being a Pacbell DSL customer?
IP address: 71.137.0.47
Reverse DNS: adsl-71-137-0-47.dsl.sndg02.pacbell.net.
Reverse DNS authenticity: [Verified]
ASN: 7132
ASN Name: SBIS-AS
IP range connectivity: 6
Registrar (per ASN): ARIN
Country (per IP registrar): US [United States]
Country Currency: USD [United States Dollars]
Country IP Range: 71.128.0.0 to 71.255.255.255
Country fraud profile: Normal
City (per outside source): San Diego, California
Country (per outside source): US [United States]
Private (internal) IP? No
IP address registrar: whois.arin.net
Known Proxy? No
Link for WHOIS: 71.137.0.47
Richard Henry
> Michael A. Terrell <mike.terr...@earthlink.net>
> wibbled on Monday 15 March 2010 16:11
>
> > So, you think someone will forge their IP address to access Google
> > groups? The fact that they use Google group generally means they don't
> > know how. OTOH, if you are that paranoid, it's your problem. Why would
> > anyone want to fake being a Pacbell DSL customer?
>
> jurisdiction you're in if you are asking a question where the answer varies
> by jurisdiction! The Internet is not longer just ARPANet, so unless the
> USENET group begins with a country code, one has to assume it's got an
> international audience.
>
> Not having a go at the OP or anyone else - honest omission I expect. But if
> folk ask a question, it's a bit rude to expect the potential contributers to
> play a guessing game when the OP could easily state the fact.
>
> Nuff said from me :-o
>
> --
> Tim Watts
>
> Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.
Sorry about the omission in the original posting, but I have since
answered the question some time ago: California, USA.
Status report: the job is about half done, using grey UV resistant
SCH 40 PVC conduit and fittings. A word of advice: if you plan to
pull 3 12 AWG solid wires 30 feet, 1/2" conduit is a little tight. I
would use 3/4" conduit if I were to do it again.
D Yuniskis
Tim Watts wrote:
>
> Without making a big deal of it, it is generally polite to say what
> jurisdiction you're in if you are asking a question where the answer varies
I would agree -- *if* the questioner is just looking for
a quick answer (that google et al. can't/won't provide).
However, I actually enjoy hearing "unconstrained" answers.
It exposes you to ideas that you might not otherwise see.
I think this is *particularly* true of "americans" who see
the world as "America" (with little beyond). The idea that
there *can* be a "different answer" -- other than the one
in front of you -- is often enlightening. And, reminds
us that there *are* other ways of doing things.
Which, hopefully, gets one to thinking: "Why is that
answer different? Is it *better*? Or, were other
criteria at play in its formulation?"
E.g., the idea of *not* having an electric outlet in
the bathroom in such a place as convenient as "by the
sink/vanity/mirror" was a surprise to me. Electric
shaver? Hair dryer? Curling iron? Electric toothbrush?
(i.e., are these things simply not used, there? Or, are
"safer" variants produced)
Even within the US, there are different issues that affect
different regions of the country. E.g., here I think nothing
of burying water lines "shallow" (frost line is nonexistent?).
OTOH, I'd never leave a piece of PVC out in the Sun :-/
I think, without hearing these sorts of differences mentioned
(even casually in a discussion about sundial placement, etc.)
helps open people's minds to other ideas.
> by jurisdiction! The Internet is not longer just ARPANet, so unless the
> USENET group begins with a country code, one has to assume it's got an
> international audience.
>
> Not having a go at the OP or anyone else - honest omission I expect. But if
> folk ask a question, it's a bit rude to expect the potential contributers to
> play a guessing game when the OP could easily state the fact.
Yup. Or, respondents can qualify (or not! :> ) their replies.
<shrug>
D Yuniskis
Richard Henry wrote:
> Status report: the job is about half done, using grey UV resistant
> SCH 40 PVC conduit and fittings. A word of advice: if you plan to
> pull 3 12 AWG solid wires 30 feet, 1/2" conduit is a little tight. I
> would use 3/4" conduit if I were to do it again.
I *think* you are supposed to pull "unjacketed" wires in
conduit. I'd have to check the codebook to be sure :-/
D Yuniskis
[attributions elided]
>> However, I actually enjoy hearing "unconstrained" answers.
>> It exposes you to ideas that you might not otherwise see.
>> I think this is *particularly* true of "americans" who see
>> the world as "America" (with little beyond). The idea that
>> there *can* be a "different answer" -- other than the one
>> in front of you -- is often enlightening. And, reminds
>> us that there *are* other ways of doing things.
>
> Though one does have to be a little cautious with safety related regs. I
Yes. Though not *too* cautious -- lest we end up doing away
with the Darwin Awards! ;-)
> could give the OP an answer that would be OK under the IEE regs but would be
> against the NEC, purely because the assumed conditions are different due to
> other regs or the characteristics of the supply itself (often the case WRT
> to matters of earthing). As long as I say "this is to the "IEE 17th" then
> it's OK, but if I forgot, the poster might read it as "OK to the NEC".
>
>> Which, hopefully, gets one to thinking: "Why is that
>> answer different? Is it *better*? Or, were other
>> criteria at play in its formulation?"
>>
>> E.g., the idea of *not* having an electric outlet in
>> the bathroom in such a place as convenient as "by the
>> sink/vanity/mirror" was a surprise to me. Electric
>> shaver? Hair dryer? Curling iron? Electric toothbrush?
>> (i.e., are these things simply not used, there? Or, are
>> "safer" variants produced)
>
> Just for interest, we can have toothbrushes and shavers using one of these
> in Zone 2 or beyond (> 0.6m from the edge of bath or shower):
>
> http://www.tlc-
> direct.co.uk/Main_Index/Wiring_Accessories_Menu_Index/Ultimate_Index/Ultimate_Shaver_Socket/index.html
[Hmmm, either *your* NNTP client -- or mine -- has decided that
a hyphen is a convenient place to break a "word". Obviously,
doesn't recognize the "specialness" of hyphen within a URL]
Does this device extend *back* into the J-box? Or, does it
fit *onto* (in front of?) it?
> The principle there is that the 240V/120V outlets are isolated to a high
> isolation level (kV) from the supply *and* earth. The power potential is
> limited, so nothing beyond a few 10s of watts and, as of the 17th Edition
> IEE Regs, the feed must also be RCD protected (30mA/40mS type).
OK. Obviously power limited.
> So no, we are not encouraged to use any other appliance on flex in a
> bathroom. En-suite bedrooms now come under the same rules, but as those
> rooms are usually quite large, we can take advantage of being allowed normal
> sockets > 3m from the shower, or if there is a proper door to the shower
I don't recall distances from "wet" in the bathroom. In the kitchen,
it tends to be 12" "implicitly". And, most kitchen appliances are
now being offered with very *short* power cords -- no doubt to
keep them from being placed "far enough" from their outlet (which
must be GFCI) to venture *into* a "wet zone". (short cords also
encourage users to unplug the appliances when they clean the
countertops, etc.)
> area, then it counts as a separate room anyway. Few people in England have
!!! Wow, that's an interesting twist! By "door", do you mean
one of those "crinkly-glass" partitions that acts as a shower
curtain (i.e., doesn't necessarily "wall off" the shower area
completely)?
> bathrooms > 3m long (2m long is normal) so no-one has 13A outlets there.
Our code requires GFCI on bathroom, kitchen, outdoors (except
above certain height). Garage is considered outdoors.
So, you get sleazy builders putting all the bathrooms and
all the outdoor outlets and all the garage outlets on a single
15-20A circuit. (kitchen is mandated to have several 20A
GFCI's) I guess the assumption is that most folks rarely use
outdoor *and* bathroom(s) *and* garage concurrently.
OTOH, it seems pretty obvious that all bathrooms would tend
to be in use concurrently "before work/school" -- and the
folks in those could be equally likely to be using high
power appliances (hair dryer, curling iron, etc.) at the
same time...
And, of course, folks who like to illuminate the exteriors
of their homes with holiday decorations would easily tax
a single GFCI circuit...
> You can have fixed appliances hard wired in (including showers obviously,
> which are in Zone 1, over the bath/shower). I used SELV (Separated-from-
> earth Extra Low Voltage) 12V lights in mine just so I could have some lights
Ah, that's a good idea! Though you have to keep the bulbs from
seeing moisture lest they shatter (I assume your lamps are
high wattage to throw some significant amount of light?)
> in the shower area. And they have to be IP56 or better. The IEE Regs are
> extremely conservative on the whole and get more so with each edition.
>
> OTOH I seem to remember some americans being surprised when I said we plumb
> our gas pipework in copper (usually) ;->
>
>> Even within the US, there are different issues that affect
>> different regions of the country. E.g., here I think nothing
>> of burying water lines "shallow" (frost line is nonexistent?).
>> OTOH, I'd never leave a piece of PVC out in the Sun :-/
>
> Yeah. My water inlet pipe is only 2 foot underground. No risk of freezing
> here but, boy, did the water get cold when the last snow's meltwater got
> down to it!
I bury irrigation lines at 6 inches (!). We don't have *really* cold
water, here. And, come Summer, just Hot and Warm. :>
D Yuniskis
Tim Watts wrote:
>> [attributions elided]
>>
>>> Though one does have to be a little cautious with safety related regs. I
>> Yes. Though not *too* cautious -- lest we end up doing away
>> with the Darwin Awards! ;-)
>
> This is Britain - Darwin isn't allowed anymore. Health and Safety roolz OK
> man! Sadly...
Yeah, I forget they won't let you play with *guns*, either :-/
(though it seems to inspire more "creative" mechanisms of
destruction! :> )
>> Does this device extend *back* into the J-box? Or, does it
>> fit *onto* (in front of?) it?
>
> Either. You can put it in a 47mm back box sunk into the wall (usual way for
> neatness) or into a 47mm surface plastic box (popular with government
So, a cross section looks like a short/stubby "T"?
> housing for cheapness, or for later additions where you can't face fixing
> the plasterwork. Same principle applies to all our fittings - can be flush
> or surface. Most don't need such a deep box, it's usually 25 or 35mm for
> sockets (I prefer the latter, our twin+earth solid copper 2.5mm2 cable is a
> bastard to work with at the best of times and when you have upto 3 of them
> to fold down, you want some space).
>
> Light switches can be done thinner unless you use lumpy dimmers.
Understood. Seems like stuffing the service loop back
into the box takes more volume than the fixture itself,
in most cases! (pity folks with flimsy plastic boxes)
>> I don't recall distances from "wet" in the bathroom. In the kitchen,
>> it tends to be 12" "implicitly". And, most kitchen appliances are
>> now being offered with very *short* power cords -- no doubt to
>> keep them from being placed "far enough" from their outlet (which
>> must be GFCI) to venture *into* a "wet zone". (short cords also
>> encourage users to unplug the appliances when they clean the
>> countertops, etc.)
>>
>>> area, then it counts as a separate room anyway. Few people in England
>>> have
>> !!! Wow, that's an interesting twist! By "door", do you mean
>> one of those "crinkly-glass" partitions that acts as a shower
>> curtain (i.e., doesn't necessarily "wall off" the shower area
>> completely)?
>
> No, real door. Shower screens don't count.
Ah, so *literally* "another room".
>>> bathrooms > 3m long (2m long is normal) so no-one has 13A outlets there.
>> Our code requires GFCI on bathroom, kitchen, outdoors (except
>> above certain height). Garage is considered outdoors.
>
> That's a bit similar to the 16th IEE - 17th added RCD on all sockets (except
> the odd explicitly marked ones which may be dedicated to a freezer say).
Here, such outlets have to be truly dedicated. E.g., you can't put
a duplex receptacle there.
> However, it also now requires RCD protection on *all* circuits that are
> buried in the wall < 2" below any surface (and building regs [structural
Ahh... --------------^^^^ That's a novel way of fixing the problem.
Here, if you route cable within 2" of the nailing surface, you have
to armor the cable (or its surrounds). E.g., you can puchase
thick "nail on" plates to protect cable runs through framing 2x4's
where those runs are "too close" to the edge of the stud.
> section] usually stops you hacking a chase >2" in most brock walls). So now
> everything has to be RCD protected or run in one of the following ways:
>
> (Too many people screwing metal shelves into cables...)
Understood. Bozo that installed air conditioner here ran #6/3 SE
cable between the drywall and masonary block exterior wall. I.e.,
in the firring channel. He wondered why I wasn't pleased with this!
(e.g., imagine using a stud finder some years hence and picking up
the mass of the 6/3 cable, instead. Then, confidently driving a
nail into this "stud"... X-(
> a) Surface mounted (you can see it), naked or in plastic conduit or
> trunking.
We have "channel mold" for surface mounted wiring. Very low
class, IMO.
> b) Steel wire armoured cable (sounds like overkill, but it's cheap and not
> hard to work with). Often a good solution if the meter is miles away from
> the fusebox and you need to safely transport a 100A feed half way round the
> house without RCD protection.
>
> c) Copper tubed "pyro"/MICC cable (bare copper wires in magnesium oxide
> powder insulation inside copper pipe). Looks nice, especially run on 16th
> century stonework or timber framed buildings where anything else would look
> pig ugly (Council Hertitage Officers often like it for ancient listed
> buildings) and quite thin, but very difficult to terminate and not many
> electricians can do it these days.
>
> d) Foil earth-screened cable to a certain British Standard - needs lots of
> other pre conditions satisfied, not always practical and very expensive;
>
> e) Good old steel conduit. No one uses this except in factories and car
> parks because it is such a bastard to do and very time consuming.
There are jurisdictions here (elsewhere in the US) where *all*
cable must be run in EMT -- even stuff buried in walls as part
of new works.
>> So, you get sleazy builders putting all the bathrooms and
>> all the outdoor outlets and all the garage outlets on a single
>> 15-20A circuit. (kitchen is mandated to have several 20A
>> GFCI's) I guess the assumption is that most folks rarely use
>> outdoor *and* bathroom(s) *and* garage concurrently.
>
> Ooh.
Yeah, amusing to those folks who discover this sort of thing
*after* purchasing a house!
Of course, older buildings have none of the above. E.g., my folks'
house is wired with 12/2 BX. Any place that a "grounded outlet"
was added was just tied to the armor! :-/
>> OTOH, it seems pretty obvious that all bathrooms would tend
>> to be in use concurrently "before work/school" -- and the
>> folks in those could be equally likely to be using high
>> power appliances (hair dryer, curling iron, etc.) at the
>> same time...
>>
>> And, of course, folks who like to illuminate the exteriors
>> of their homes with holiday decorations would easily tax
>> a single GFCI circuit...
>
> Long live Snowy the Illuminated Snowman!
Or Pepe the Dancing Saguaro :-/
>>> You can have fixed appliances hard wired in (including showers obviously,
>>> which are in Zone 1, over the bath/shower). I used SELV (Separated-from-
>>> earth Extra Low Voltage) 12V lights in mine just so I could have some
>>> lights
>> Ah, that's a good idea! Though you have to keep the bulbs from
>> seeing moisture lest they shatter (I assume your lamps are
>> high wattage to throw some significant amount of light?)
>
> The IP rating sort sorts the moisture. In my case, 20W per lamp, but I have
> 6 of them - works quite well, better light distribution than a single 100W
> bulb, though getting quality bulbs is a PITA. Last lot I bought for 50p each
> died after 4 weeks. In theory they should last forever; cf car lamps with
> nice thick filaments.
Hmmm... perhaps something to do with their orientation?