What is the purspose of pre-tinned wire?
Sandi
not.
What is the purpose of pre-tinned wire? As far as I can see the
advantage is that the copper core doesn't oxidise which means the
wire can be soldered or fixed to a terminate with only minimal
cleaning.
Sounds like a good thing to me, so why isn't almost all wire pre-
tinned?
Is cost really so different?
Does the tinning-coating replace where copper would have been in
the overall wire and tinning is of higher reistence?
Is flexibility affected?
Ross Herbert
:Some insulated multistrnd copper wire is pre-tinned and a lot is
As you surmised, the answer is cost. It is not the cost of the tin itself but
the additional process and handling which adds to the complexity of production.
The copper conductor wire gauge is not made smaller where tinning is not applied
and the added few microns of tin would not affect resistance/unit length by any
significant degree. Flexibility is not an issue.
I think that manufacturers realise the majority of termination methods used
today rely on crimping or soldering while the copper conductors are clean.
Tinned conductors are an advantage where the conductors are secured by screws or
wire-wrap although less so for the latter. Insulation displacement techniques
are not a problem for untinned conductors.
Steve Terry
"Sandi" <inv...@email.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9BF02B2...@news.albasani.net...
<snip>
> Does the tinning-coating replace where copper would have been in
> the overall wire and tinning is of higher reistence?
> Is flexibility affected?
>
>
the surface of a conductor, it would attenuate RF and high frequency AC
Steve Terry
Eeyore
Steve Terry wrote:
> "Sandi" <inv...@email.com> wrote in message
>
> <snip>
> > Does the tinning-coating replace where copper would have been in
> > the overall wire and tinning is of higher reistence?
> > Is flexibility affected?
>
> Tin has a much lower conductivity than copper, and as RF travels on
> the surface of a conductor, it would attenuate RF and high frequency AC
Largely irrelevant since the RF flows on the surface of the entire bundle
of conductors, not individual uninsulated strands.
Graham
Pilgrim
"Steve Terry" <gFOU...@tesco.net> wrote:
Is that why most, but not all, teflon insulated wire was silver plated?
Chuck P.
Phil Allison
"Pilgrim"
> "Steve Terry"
> "Sandi"
>> >
>> Tin has a much lower conductivity than copper, and as RF travels on
>> the surface of a conductor, it would attenuate RF and high frequency AC
>>
>
** No.
Teflon coated wire intended is for high temp applications.
Silver has a much higher melting point than tin ( just a tad below copper)
and is more corrosion resistant too.
..... Phil
GregS
Most of my TFE coated wire is not silvered butl is tinned. All TFE wirewrap is
silvered.
greg
Tim Shoppa
> In article <gs9gt7$uk...@news.albasani.net>,
> "Steve Terry" <gFOUR...@tesco.net> wrote:
>
> > "Sandi" <inva...@email.com> wrote in message
> >news:Xns9BF02B2...@news.albasani.net...
> > <snip>
> > > Does the tinning-coating replace where copper would have been in
> > > the overall wire and tinning is of higher reistence?
> > > Is flexibility affected?
>
> > Tin has a much lower conductivity than copper, and as RF travels on
> > the surface of a conductor, it would attenuate RF and high frequency AC
>
> > Steve Terry
>
> Is that why most, but not all, teflon insulated wire was silver plated?
I think the reason for silver-plated teflon wiring is mostly milspec
compliance (and the follow-ons that include the mispecs.) The real
question is, why is it in the milspec? Certainly WWII and Korea
influenced milspecs a lot to focus on fungus-proofing, and Teflon had
some advantages back then when the other insulators were not so fungus
resistant. At the same time, other insulating materials can turn
copper or even tin-plated copper inside the insulation black with a
kinda sooty residue (common on Romex from the 50's-70's for example).
It seems to me that silver-plated teflon was a kind of knee jerk
reaction to these two issues, a belt-and-suspenders-cost-is-no-object
approach to a pretty mundane but really fundamental issue.
It's a real joy to work on ex-military equipment with Teflon cable
assemblies. Compare it to other consumer or less-speced industrial
stuff from the same era with PVC-type insulation, where you flex the
cable a little bit and the insulation cracks and falls off leaving
bare wires.
Tim N3QE
Steve Terry
"Pilgrim" <pil...@noemail.net> wrote in message
news:pilgrim-AB916B...@70-3-168-216.pools.spcsdns.net...
copper,
but oxidises easily so silver should be covered, PTFE is one of the best
coverings.
Steve Terry
Ian Bell
No, it is usually tin/lead alloy, better known as solder.
Cheers
ian
Salmon Egg
> Is that why most, but not all, teflon insulated wire was silver plated?
My guess is that tinned wire is soldered more easily even after much
exposure to unfriendly environments. You do not have any copper oxide to
remove. Any crap in the tin flots away and new solder flows in under
such crap.
Bill
--
Private Profit; Public Poop! Avoid collateral windfall!
Spehro Pefhany
wrote:
Some of the newer wires have PTFE-Polyimide-PTFE insulation. Best of
both worlds.
David Nebenzahl
> Sandi wrote:
>>
>> Is it real "tin" that's used?
>
> No, it is usually tin/lead alloy, better known as solder.
Not any more (post-RoHS). (Solder, yes, but not lead.)
--
Save the Planet
Kill Yourself
- motto of the Church of Euthanasia (http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/)
Dave Platt
>> Tin has a much lower conductivity than copper, and as RF travels on
>> the surface of a conductor, it would attenuate RF and high frequency AC
>Is that why most, but not all, teflon insulated wire was silver plated?
My understanding is that the Teflon-insulated wire uses silverplating
for a couple of reasons, related to the high melting point of Teflon
(and thus the high temperatures to which the wire is exposed when the
Teflon is melt-extruded onto the conductors).
The old-standard tin/lead tinning material can't be used in this
high-temperature environment, as it would be melted by the heat of the
Teflon extrusion, and would fuse a stranded-conductor wire into an
inflexible single strand.
Not tinning or plating the wire would leave the surface of the copper
exposed to high temperatures during the extrusion... I suspect that it
would oxidize (if there's any free oxygen in that environment... dunno
about that) or might react with the polymer. Even if it didn't react
at that time, oxygen would infiltrate the wire at the cut end (albeit
slowly) and the last few inches of the wire might end up with a
significant amount of copper oxide on the conducter surface.
Silver-plating protects the copper from oxidation (I gather that
silver oxide is somewhat easier for fluxes to deal with?) and the
silver doesn't melt at the Teflon extrusion temperature.
I don't believe that the silver plating is thick enough to give the
wire a significant conductivity advantage over pure copper, even at RF
frequencies.
--
Dave Platt <dpl...@radagast.org> AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!
GregS
>In article <pilgrim-AB916B...@70-3-168-216.pools.spcsdns.net>,
>Pilgrim <pil...@noemail.net> wrote:
>
>>> Tin has a much lower conductivity than copper, and as RF travels on
>>> the surface of a conductor, it would attenuate RF and high frequency AC
>
>>Is that why most, but not all, teflon insulated wire was silver plated?
>
>My understanding is that the Teflon-insulated wire uses silverplating
>for a couple of reasons, related to the high melting point of Teflon
>(and thus the high temperatures to which the wire is exposed when the
>Teflon is melt-extruded onto the conductors).
I checked looked at a spool of about #20 stranded wire. It does look very shiny like silver.
I thought it was odd looking at it. its made up of a tightly twisted center
section and a loosly woven outer section around the inner section. The TFE is
almost a fluorescent blue. Neat stuff. 19/32 strands.
GregS
This got to be audio grade !
Ian Bell
> On 4/17/2009 7:20 AM Ian Bell spake thus:
>
>> Sandi wrote:
>>>
>>> Is it real "tin" that's used?
>>
>> No, it is usually tin/lead alloy, better known as solder.
>
> Not any more (post-RoHS). (Solder, yes, but not lead.)
>
>
Fortunately I stocked up on the real stuff before they banned it ;-)
Cheers
Ian
Steve Terry
"Mike" <youmu...@king.com> wrote in message
news:gsao5i$m0u$1...@news.albasani.net...
> "Steve Terry" <gFOU...@tesco.net> wrote in message
> news:gs9gt7$uk9$1...@news.albasani.net...
>
> (I have killed the cross posts to stop the usual abuse from being seen
> outside uk.radio.amateur)
> Mike
>
Beats me?
Steve Terry
Sandi
> In article
> <pilgrim-AB916B...@70-3-168-216.pools.spcsdns.net>,
> Pilgrim <pil...@noemail.net> wrote:
>
>> Is that why most, but not all, teflon insulated wire was
>> silver plated?
>
> My guess is that tinned wire is soldered more easily even
> after much exposure to unfriendly environments. You do not
> have any copper oxide to remove. Any crap in the tin flots
> away and new solder flows in under such crap.
>
That's what I would have thought too. But if pre-tinned (plastic
insulated) wire is so useful in this respect then why isn't pre-
tinned found more often?
I'm not thinking of the use of wire at RF frequencies but as an
interconecting wire.
I haven't managed to compare the cost of pre-tinned wire identical
plain copper wire but I don't ever recall seeing tinned wire and
thinking it was unexpectedly expensive. Has anyone got any info
from making this comparison in the past?
Charlie E.
wrote:
And, IIRC, silver oxide is still a decent conductor...
Charlie
Paul Hovnanian P.E.
Are you certain that its tinned wire you are looking at and not
nickel-plated copper? That is often used for high temp applications
where the copper alone will oxidize.
--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:Pa...@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
At some point it becomes necessary to behead all the architects and
begin construction. -- Abi-Bar-Shim (Project Mgr. - Great Pyramid)
spamtr...@gmail.com
> "Pilgrim" <pilg...@noemail.net> wrote in message
>
> news:pilgrim-AB916B...@70-3-168-216.pools.spcsdns.net...
>
>
>> >> "Sandi" <inva...@email.com> wrote in message
> >>news:Xns9BF02B2...@news.albasani.net...
> >> <snip>
> >> > Does the tinning-coating replace where copper would have been in
> >> > the overall wire and tinning is of higher reistence?
> >> > Is flexibility affected?
>
> >> Tin has a much lower conductivity than copper, and as RF travels on
> >> the surface of a conductor, it would attenuate RF and high frequency AC
> >> Steve Terry
>
> > Is that why most, but not all, teflon insulated wire was silver plated?
> > Chuck P.
>
> Yes, Silver is one of the few metals that has a lower resistance than
> copper,
> but oxidises easily so silver should be covered, PTFE is one of the best
> coverings.
>
Silver does not oxidize so much as it tarnishes, by picking up sulfur
from the air.
William Sommerwerck
> by picking up sulfur from the air.
Same thing. Chemically, it's oxidation. Silver cleaners/polishes are
reducing agents (eg, Tarn-X).
Mr. Haney
wrote:
Folks in this discussion need to define "pre-tinned".
There is TPC wire, which is individual TIN plated Copper strands made
into mutli-stranded wire in the same process as any other stranded wire.
There is SPC, which is individual Silver plated Copper strands.
It was always my understanding that "pre-tinned" wire was stranded wire
that was run through a solder bath and tinned similarly as the 'tinning'
one would give the end of a wire in a solder pot.
If the wire is this type, it is used in certain industries to reduce
production labor costs. It is specifically NOT used in certain other
industries due to the problems associated with cinched type termination
processes and an effect known as 'solder creep'.
TPC is TIN plated, not solder plated. Just like it states.
"Pre-tinned wire" IS processed using solder.
Mr. Haney
wrote:
>David Nebenzahl wrote:
Sorry, but TPC wire was already RoHS compliant. All the idiots had to
do is change the label. TIN is TIN. It doesn't say "SPC" (Solder PLated
Wire)... It SAYS TPC TIN Plated Wire. Pretty simple.
SPC (Silver, of course) is better anyway... particularly from a shelf
life POV.
I hate TPC wire that has been around too long. The crap won't even
take solder. Give me SPC any day. The cost difference is negligible, if
one weighs the added labor cost of dealing with poor quality TPC, which
nearly all of it is.
Mr. Haney
wrote:
>
>
That's why one should use SPC, which is Silver plated Copper.
Phil Allison
"Charlie E."
>>I don't believe that the silver plating is thick enough to give the
>>wire a significant conductivity advantage over pure copper, even at RF
>>frequencies.
>
> And, IIRC, silver oxide is still a decent conductor...
** Shame it does not exist on silver metal in normal circumstances.
The dark tarnish seen on silver is silver sulphide ( Ag2S ) and has a very
high resistance.
..... Phil
.
Mr. Haney
Wrong. The customer gets what the customer buys. If all YOU were
exposed to was SPC TFE, the THAT was ALL your employer was buying, you
dope. TPC was just as prevalent, despite the fact that it sucks on so
many levels.
Jamie
plated may which is normally used more in cases of screw terminals and
crimp fasteners.
Mr. Haney
<phila...@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>
>"Pilgrim"
>> "Steve Terry"
>> "Sandi"
>>> >
>>> Tin has a much lower conductivity than copper, and as RF travels on
>>> the surface of a conductor, it would attenuate RF and high frequency AC
>>>
>>
>> Is that why most, but not all, teflon insulated wire was silver plated?
>
>
>** No.
>
>Teflon coated wire intended is for high temp applications.
With the sole exclusion of anything related to a nuclear reactor.
Teflon turns to powder in that environment, and they (Genral Atomics)do
not use it in such settings. You will see it used on the Predator,
however.
>Silver has a much higher melting point than tin ( just a tad below copper)
>and is more corrosion resistant too.
Also, purified Silver Oxide, made in the lab, conducts better than the
element itself does. Silver oxide on wires, and other conductive
surfaces creates a protective 'patina' on the surfaces that are exposed
to the air. In wiring, it does not affect the overall conductivity of
the wire. In the lab, it is the top dog.
Most conductive element: Silver
Most conductive compound: Silver Oxide
>
>
>
>..... Phil
>
>
>
Mr. Haney
wrote:
>but oxidises easily so silver should be covered, PTFE is one of the best
>coverings.
Silver oxide is acceptable. It remains as a mechanical part of the
surface, and does not adversely affect conductivity.
Copper oxide is an unacceptable CRUST on your wire.
That is one reason why Sivler was used to plate copper wires.
Mr. Haney
Tarnish IS oxide, you dope. Silver oxidizes, it just doesn't grow a
crust like Copper does, regardless of whatever other elements it grabs
while doing it.
> by picking up sulfur
>from the air.
You are thinking of Copper.
Mr. Haney
wrote:
>I don't believe that the silver plating is thick enough to give the
>wire a significant conductivity advantage over pure copper, even at RF
>frequencies.
There are grades of plating, just like there are grades of say hard
anodizing surface thickness for Aluminum, which affects its insulative
capacity (electrical).
Phil Allison
"Mr. Haney"
"Phil Allison"
>
>>** No.
>>
>>Teflon coated wire intended is for high temp applications.
>
> With the sole exclusion of anything related to a nuclear reactor.
** Wot utterly irrelevant drivel.
>>Silver has a much higher melting point than tin ( just a tad below copper)
>>and is more corrosion resistant too.
>
> Also, purified Silver Oxide, made in the lab, conducts better than the
> element itself does.
** Shame it does not even exist on silver objects or wires.
> Silver oxide on wires, and other conductive
> surfaces creates a protective 'patina' on the surfaces that are exposed
> to the air.
** Absolute BOLLOCKS !!!!!!!!!!!!!
The dark tarnish seen on silver is silver sulphide ( Ag2S ) - which is an
insulator.
Hanley is just parroting one of the DUMBEST MYTHS floating around the
internet and swallowed whole by audiophools.
..... Phil
Mr. Haney
wrote:
It is likely SPC and is Mil grade. There is no such thing as "audio
grade". You have been talking to too many consumer electronics
salespersons.
Phil Allison
"Mr. Haney the Halfwit "
>>
>>Silver does not oxidize so much as it tarnishes,
>
> Tarnish IS oxide, you dope.
** Hanley is FUCKING IMBECILE.
..... Phil
Phil Allison
"Mr. Haney the Dickwad "
> Silver oxide is acceptable.
** But non existent on wires etc.
> It remains as a mechanical part of the
> surface, and does not adversely affect conductivity.
** Since it does not exist on wire surfaces, that is true.
Hanley is a TOTAL MORON !!!
...... Phil
Mr. Haney
Tin plated wire is notorious for NOT taking solder, especially when it
is inside teflon.
An even worse type is HV wire that is TPC on PTFE. It is worth
whatever the difference is to buy SPC, because THAT ALWAYS takes solder.
Mr. Haney
<phila...@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>
>** Shame it does not even exist on silver objects or wires.
One of the only true things I have ever seen you state.
Phil Allison
"Mr. Haney"
> Also, purified Silver Oxide, made in the lab, conducts better than the
> element itself does.
** Shame it does not even exist on silver objects or wires.
Mr. Haney
<phila...@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>The dark tarnish seen on silver is silver sulphide ( Ag2S ) - which is an
>insulator.
>
>Hanley is just parroting one of the DUMBEST MYTHS floating around the
>internet and swallowed whole by audiophools.
>
It has NOTHING to do with audio you retarded twit, and neither do I.
I never made ANY reference to audio EVER in ANY of my responses to
ANYONE.
I am referring to the days when I made RF chokes from Solid SPC wire.
And the prevalent use of it in military radios and other military gear. I
do not expect a dope like you to have a clue, being that you are from a
place that gets all its military gear from its allies.
Phil Allison
"Mr. Haney the Halfwit "
>
>>The dark tarnish seen on silver is silver sulphide ( Ag2S ) - which is
>>an
>>insulator.
>>
>>Hanley is just parroting one of the DUMBEST MYTHS floating around the
>>internet and swallowed whole by audiophools.
>>
>
> It has NOTHING to do with audio
** The ridiculous myth you are sprouting does.
> I am referring to the days when I made RF chokes from Solid SPC wire.
> And the prevalent use of it in military radios and other military gear.
** Means you have NO excuse for your COLOSSAL IGNORANCE.
Piss the HELL off - you stinking TROLL !!
...... Phil
Van Chocstraw
> Some insulated multistrnd copper wire is pre-tinned and a lot is
> not.
>
> What is the purpose of pre-tinned wire? As far as I can see the
> advantage is that the copper core doesn't oxidise which means the
> wire can be soldered or fixed to a terminate with only minimal
> cleaning.
>
> Sounds like a good thing to me, so why isn't almost all wire pre-
> tinned?
>
> Is cost really so different?
>
> the overall wire and tinning is of higher reistence?
>
> Is flexibility affected?
I guess they assume you do not need to cut it to length. It probably
solders easier or stay in a pinch connector better.
Archimedes' Lever
Cinch type terminations is the proper term, Chocstraw retard.
Also a soldered wire does NOT get retained better in such a connection.
The solder "creeps" away and the connection becomes loose.
http://www.materialseducation.org/docs/new2007/15-Bunnell.pdf
http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/phase-trans/2004/creep.practical.pdf
Go troll somewhere else Chocstraw.
William Sommerwerck
bad connection made by someone inexperienced in soldering. (I didn't say it
eliminated the chance.)
Johannes
Aren't these problems are surely to do with contamination of the
wire plating by the insulation rather than inherent
characteristics of the plating?
Worldclass Wire & Cable's catalogue has several charts comparing
the properties of the insulation including one on
fluoropolymers. However they don't seem to worry much about
soldering probably because maybe they presume their users
(usually military subcontractors) will clean the wire.
Tyrorex
I don't know Mr Haney or you but AFAICT he seems to write sensibly,
accurately and with some knowledge of what he is discussing. I'm
prepared to accept what he writes.
Could you cut the noise down please. Thank you.
Tyrorex
<phila...@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>
>>
>>>The dark tarnish seen on silver is silver sulphide ( Ag2S ) - which is
>>>an insulator.
>>>
>>>Hanley is just parroting one of the MYTHS floating around the
>>>internet and swallowed whole by people less clever than me.
>>>
>>
>> It has NOTHING to do with audio
>
>** The ridiculous myth you are sprouting does.
>
>> I am referring to the days when I made RF chokes from Solid SPC wire.
>> And the prevalent use of it in military radios and other military gear.
>
>** Means you have NO excuse for your COLOSSAL IGNORANCE.
>
> Piss the HELL off - you stinking TROLL !!
>
>...... Phil
>
Phil,
Seriously now, do you have borderline personality disorder?
Michael A. Terrell
He has severe problems. That is why most people just kill file him.
He either can't afford, or refuses to take his medication most of the
time. Once in a while he's lucid for a day or two, but it never lasts.
'Haney', on the other hand is one of a couple dozen sock puppets of
the Dimbulb troll. He is also known as 'Always Wrong' on the
sci.electronics.* newsgroups for his never ending strings of bad
advice. Most of the time he sounds like Phil, when he isn't taking his
medicine. Be prepared to see dimbulb reply to himself, and rant that he
is the smartest one on the newsgroup, and that he has done more for
humanity, blah, blah, blah...
Someone suggested a cage fight between the two, but nothing happened.
For those who don't know, or never saw the TV show 'Green Acres' 'Mr.
Haney' was the worlds dumbest con man.
--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!
Jim Thompson
wrote:
Borderline? Bwahahahahahaha! You must be new around here ;-)
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine Sometimes I even put it in the food
Chris Street
Tarnish is silver sulphide. It is no oxide. The tarnishing process is as
follows..
8Ag + 4HS(-) <---> 4Ag2S + 2H2 + 4e-
Oxygen in the form of a water film is required - silver will not tarnish
in dry air. This reaction mops up the electrons lost in the oxidation
process
O2 + 2H2O + 4e- <---> 4OH(-)
Although the reaction is a classical redox process the end product is
not an oxide - it is assuredly silver sulphide.
Since I'm sure there will be a deal of shouting from people about how
this is bollocks, I would point out I have a degree and masters in the
field and spent a lot of time researching silver adsorption reactions
for silver oxide cells and lead acids - I do know what the deal is here.
As fo silver oxide being conductive - the biggest problem in a silver
cell is the extra graphite needed to make it conduct - silver oxide is a
p-type semiconductor. Silver sulphide is mode conductive than copper
oxide though by a long way and is usedful because then the silver coat
tarnishes it does not reduce the skin effect like the dielectric coating
of copper oxide will.
Baron
> a p-type semiconductor. Silver sulphide is more conductive than copper
> oxide though by a long way and is usedful because then the silver coat
> tarnishes it does not reduce the skin effect like the dielectric
> coating of copper oxide will.
I own a couple of antenna that are silver plated for that reason !
>
>>
>>> by picking up sulfur
>>>from the air.
>>
>> You are thinking of Copper.
--
Best Regards:
Baron.
Mr. Haney
Duh. That's what I said. "especially when it is inside teflon".
>
>Worldclass Wire & Cable's catalogue has several charts comparing
>the properties of the insulation including one on
>fluoropolymers. However they don't seem to worry much about
>soldering probably because maybe they presume their users
>(usually military subcontractors) will clean the wire.
The FLUX 'cleans the wire' you dippy ditz.
The cases notes are where NORMAL soldering processes do NOT yield
favorable results.
It is pretty obvious for anyone with an inkling of common sense.
Mr. Haney
<n...@chris-street.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Since I'm sure there will be a deal of shouting from people about how
>this is bollocks, I would point out I have a degree and masters in the
>field and spent a lot of time researching silver adsorption reactions
>for silver oxide cells and lead acids - I do know what the deal is here.
No. You are correct.
mick
<snip>
>
> Borderline? Bwahahahahahaha! You must be new around here ;-)
>
:-D
Nice one Jim...
--
Mick (Working in a M$-free zone!)
Web: http://www.nascom.info
Filtering everything posted from googlegroups to kill spam.
krw
wrote:
You're an idiot, then. DimBulb (latest sock puppet, "Mr Haney") went
out of his way to earn the name "AlwaysWrong".
>Could you cut the noise down please. Thank you.
Well, there you have a point.
Jim Thompson
wrote:
>On Sat, 18 Apr 2009 12:53:17 +1000, "Phil Allison"
If you will please just go away, the noise issue will resolve itself
;-)
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
It's what you learn, after you know it all, that counts.
William Sommerwerck
You don't understand what "oxidation" means.
Chris Street
>> Tarnish is silver sulphide. It is no oxide.
>
> You don't understand what "oxidation" means.
>
>
I most assuredly do as I pointed out in the post above. The suplhide is
an oxidation product but it is most assuredly not an oxide as has been
claimed several times.
Jamie
Jamie
Well I suppose if you were to use the wire with in a normal time from
the manufacturing date, you wouldn't need to use that flux would ya?
Mr. Haney
<jamie_ka1lpa_not_v...@charter.net> wrote:
Solder comes with flux, you total idiot, and solder processes all use
flux as well.
That borders on being one of the most stupid posts you have ever made,
Jamie.
Phil Allison
"Tyrorex" <ato...@internet.doom
** Obvious sock puppet.
>>"Mr. Haney"
>>
>>> Also, purified Silver Oxide, made in the lab, conducts better than the
>>> element itself does.
>>
>>
>>** Shame it does not even exist on silver objects or wires.
>>
>>
>>> Silver oxide on wires, and other conductive
>>> surfaces creates a protective 'patina' on the surfaces that are exposed
>>> to the air.
>>
>>
>>** Absolute BOLLOCKS !!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>
>>The dark tarnish seen on silver is silver sulphide ( Ag2S ) - which is
>>an
>>insulator.
>>
>>Hanley is just parroting one of the DUMBEST MYTHS floating around the
>>internet and swallowed whole by audiophools.
>>
>
>
> I don't know Mr Haney or you but AFAICT he seems to write sensibly,
> accurately and with some knowledge of what he is discussing.
** You need to see a shrink - ASAP.
Cos you are totally NUTS.
Look up " silver tarnish " on Google for fuck's sake.
..... Phil
Phil Allison
"Tyrorex the Tosser "
** The worst TROLLS side with other TROLLS.
The above nutter is one of the worst.
...... Phil
Ross Herbert
<OneBi...@InfiniteSeries.Org> wrote:
:On Sat, 18 Apr 2009 09:36:55 -0400, Van Chocstraw
Irrelevant!!!
These papers deals with using 60/40 tin-lead solid core flux solder and has
nothing to do with the tin plating on copper conductors in cables. Conductors
are plated using either the hot dip plating process or electroless deposition,
and the plating is usually only around 5 - 10 microns thick and it becomes
essentially part of the copper alloy itself. I have never heard of tin plating
on copper conductors "creeping" in any type of connector.
Ross Herbert
Furthermore, if tin creep were a problem then every telephone exhange employing
tin plated copper cables in non-soldered connections should have failed in a
massive way long before now. AFAIK, even today the majority of telco's still
specify the use of tin plated solid conductor wire for internal exchange
cabling.
:Irrelevant!!!
Michael A. Terrell
William Sommerwerck wrote:
>
> > Tarnish is silver sulphide. It is no oxide.
>
> You don't understand what "oxidation" means.
All he understands is trolling for attention
Ross Herbert
The only problem which can occur with tin plating is the growth of "whiskers"
but this is relatively rare except in particular environmental conditions. Tin
plated conductors are never used in aerospace environments because of whisker
growth.
:
:Irrelevant!!!
Ross Herbert
<how...@REMOVECAPShfx.eastlink.ca> wrote:
:On Fri, 17 Apr 2009 04:14:40 +0100, Sandi <inv...@email.com> wrote:
:
:>Some insulated multistrnd copper wire is pre-tinned and a lot is
:>not.
:>
:>What is the purpose of pre-tinned wire? As far as I can see the
:>advantage is that the copper core doesn't oxidise which means the
:>wire can be soldered or fixed to a terminate with only minimal
:>cleaning.
:>
:>Sounds like a good thing to me, so why isn't almost all wire pre-
:>tinned?
:>
:>Is cost really so different?
:>
:>Does the tinning-coating replace where copper would have been in
:>the overall wire and tinning is of higher reistence?
:>
:>Is flexibility affected?
:
:
:In the telecom industry the rule is "silver on silver". Back in the
:bad old days there could be problems with diss-simmilar metals
:corroding & creating noise on circuits both from rectification effects
:& from current punch-through across the junction when voltage was
:applied to the circuit, i.e. "going off-hook". In some cases
:"sealing" current was (& still is) applied on a constant basis to
:circuits that didn't require it for operation, just to keep junction
:corrosion from getting bothersome.
:
:Although not part of the original Bellcore standard I've actually
:speced tinned wire for T1 circuits going into areas I knew were going
:going to be climate controlled.
:
:H.
That is correct. A typical manufacturer of internal switchboard cable
application chart shows that their Switchboard 100 product (equivalent to what
most western countries would use for internal cabling) is suitable for T1 and
DS1 applications.
http://www.superioressex.com/uploadedFiles/Communications_Cable/Technical_Information/tn33_centoffice_select_chart.pdf
John Fields
<mrh...@thebarattheendofthefarmroad.org> wrote:
>On Sat, 18 Apr 2009 12:44:08 +1000, "Phil Allison"
><phila...@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>
>>The dark tarnish seen on silver is silver sulphide ( Ag2S ) - which is an
>>insulator.
>>
>>Hanley is just parroting one of the DUMBEST MYTHS floating around the
>>internet and swallowed whole by audiophools.
>>
>
>
> It has NOTHING to do with audio you retarded twit, and neither do I.
>
> I never made ANY reference to audio EVER in ANY of my responses to
>ANYONE.
>
> I am referring to the days when I made RF chokes from Solid SPC wire.
>And the prevalent use of it in military radios and other military gear. I
>do not expect a dope like you to have a clue, being that you are from a
>place that gets all its military gear from its allies.
---
What does that crap have to do with anything?
The point is that the tarnish found on silver, including the plating on
silver plated copper wire isn't, as you claimed, silver oxide, it's
silver sulfide.
Which makes you the dope, yes?
From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver
<Quote>
Silver metal does not react with sulfuric acid, which is used in
jewellery-making to clean and remove copper oxide firescale from silver
articles after silver soldering or annealing. However, silver reacts
readily with sulfur or hydrogen sulfide H2S to produce silver sulfide, a
dark-coloured compound familiar as the tarnish on silver coins and other
objects. Silver sulfide also forms silver whiskers when silver
electrical contacts are used in an atmosphere rich in hydrogen sulfide.
.
.
.
Silver oxide (Ag2O) produced when silver nitrate solutions are treated
with a base, is used as a positive electrode (cathode) in watch
(battery) batteries.
<End quote>
JF
J.A. Legris
There's nothing particularly "borderline" about it - it's just a name.
The odd thing is that Phil probably falls
a little into every personality disorder category, but not completely
into any of them. I think they need a new one - Australian personality
disorder :)
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cluster A (odd or eccentric disorders)
Paranoid personality disorder: characterized by irrational suspicions
and mistrust of others
Schizoid personality disorder: lack of interest in social
relationships, seeing no point in sharing time with others
Schizotypal personality disorder: also avoids social relationships,
though out of a fear of people
Cluster B (dramatic, emotional, or erratic disorders)
Antisocial personality disorder: "pervasive disregard for the law and
the rights of others."
Borderline personality disorder: extreme "black and white" thinking,
instability in relationships, self-image, identity and behavior
Histrionic personality disorder: "pervasive attention-seeking behavior
including inappropriate sexual seductiveness and shallow or
exaggerated emotions"
Narcissistic personality disorder: "a pervasive pattern of
grandiosity, need for admiration, and a lack of empathy"
Cluster C (anxious or fearful disorders)
Avoidant personality disorder: social inhibition, feelings of
inadequacy, extreme sensitivity to negative evaluation and avoidance
of social interaction
Dependent personality disorder: pervasive psychological dependence on
other people.
Obsessive-compulsive personality disorder (not the same as obsessive-
compulsive disorder): characterized by rigid conformity to rules,
moral codes, and excessive orderliness
prote...@gmail.com
> Some insulated multistrnd copper wire is pre-tinned and a lot is
> not.
>
> What is the purpose of pre-tinned wire? As far as I can see the
> advantage is that the copper core doesn't oxidise which means the
> wire can be soldered or fixed to a terminate with only minimal
> cleaning.
>
> Sounds like a good thing to me, so why isn't almost all wire pre-
> tinned?
>
> Is cost really so different?
>
> Does the tinning-coating replace where copper would have been in
> the overall wire and tinning is of higher reistence?
>
> Is flexibility affected?
ALL I CAN THINK OF BESIDES THE FACT THAT WIRE ONLY INTENDED FOR
SOLDERING SHOULD BE TINNED IS THAT IT IS DEEP PROBE TIME AT THE TROLL
FARM
I AM PROTEUS
krw
<jfi...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 17 Apr 2009 19:53:46 -0700, Mr. Haney
><mrh...@thebarattheendofthefarmroad.org> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 18 Apr 2009 12:44:08 +1000, "Phil Allison"
>><phila...@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>>
>>>The dark tarnish seen on silver is silver sulphide ( Ag2S ) - which is an
>>>insulator.
>>>
>>>Hanley is just parroting one of the DUMBEST MYTHS floating around the
>>>internet and swallowed whole by audiophools.
>>>
>>
>>
>> It has NOTHING to do with audio you retarded twit, and neither do I.
>>
>> I never made ANY reference to audio EVER in ANY of my responses to
>>ANYONE.
>>
>> I am referring to the days when I made RF chokes from Solid SPC wire.
>>And the prevalent use of it in military radios and other military gear. I
>>do not expect a dope like you to have a clue, being that you are from a
>>place that gets all its military gear from its allies.
>
>---
>What does that crap have to do with anything?
>
>The point is that the tarnish found on silver, including the plating on
>silver plated copper wire isn't, as you claimed, silver oxide, it's
>silver sulfide.
>
>Which makes you the dope, yes?
No, oxide/sulfide is not what makes DimBulb a dope.
<snip>
Carlo
> Silver oxide (Ag2O) produced when silver nitrate solutions are
> treated with a base, is used as a positive electrode (cathode)
> in watch (battery) batteries.
>
> <End quote>
>
> JF
>
That showed him up. Hee hee! You owned him.
prote...@gmail.com
> On 18 Apr 15:18, Archimedes' Lever wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Sat, 18 Apr 2009 09:36:55 -0400, Van Chocstraw
>
> >>Sandi wrote:
> >>> Some insulated multistrnd copper wire is pre-tinned and a
> >>> lot is not.
>
> >>> What is the purpose of pre-tinned wire? As far as I can see
> >>> the advantage is that the copper core doesn't oxidise which
> >>> means the wire can be soldered or fixed to a terminate with
> >>> only minimal cleaning.
>
> >>> Sounds like a good thing to me, so why isn't almost all wire
> >>> pre- tinned?
>
> >>> Is cost really so different?
>
> >>> Does the tinning-coating replace where copper would have
> >>> been in the overall wire and tinning is of higher reistence?
>
> >>> Is flexibility affected?
>
> >>probably solders easier or stay in a pinch connector better.
>
> > Cinch type terminations is the proper term, Chocstraw
> > retard.
>
> > Also a soldered wire does NOT get retained better in such a
> > connection.
>
> > The solder "creeps" away and the connection becomes loose.
>
> >http://www.materialseducation.org/docs/new2007/15-Bunnell.pdf
>
> >http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/phase-trans/2004/creep.practical.pdf
>
>
> Children are not qualified engineers.
>
> Is this a sign of desperation?
ARCHIMEDES' IS A DESPERATE CHILD WITH CRIMINAL TENDENCIES
THE SAD MELANCHOLIC OFF SPRING OF A CROSS BETWEEN HUMAN AND FAIRY TALE
TROLL I CAN'T IMAGINE WHAT HIS PARENTS WERE THINKINGAT THE TIME NOR DO
I THINK I WANT TO BUT THERE MUST BE A FILE A BOOK OR A FANTASY NOVEL
SOMEWHERE THAT EXPLAINS IT
I AM PROTEUS
Archimedes' Lever
>Those references to CHILDREN'S experiments!!!
>
>Children are not qualified engineers.
>
>Is this a sign of desperation?
You are so retarded that you do not even know what solder creep is,
much less how it relates to failure modes in cinched connection
terminations.
Archimedes' Lever
>Not sure I understand why this exchange got so lively. You wrote
>this:
>
>"Tin plated wire is notorious for NOT taking solder, especially
>when it is inside teflon."
>
>Assuming you wrote what you meant to write then you said "tin
>plated wire is notorious for NOT taking solder". You also added
>that furthermore it was even harder still to solder tin plated
>wire when it was inside Teflon insulation.
>
>Aren't some posters responding to your clearly made statement
>that
>
> "Tin plated wire is notorious for NOT taking solder"
>
>because it probably seems a bit unexpected to them? I have to
>confess it does a bit unexpected to me too. It doesn't relate to
>my experience or known facts.
>
>The Teflon insulation you mention is an additional observation
>which you offer as an extra fact but it's not particularly
>relevant to the OP's question.
>
>Seems to me this discussion is based around your statement:
>
> "Tin plated wire is notorious for NOT taking solder"
If you've ever worked with both SPC and TPC, you would know that SPC
takes solder an order of magnitude better than TPC does.
Archimedes' Lever
wrote:
>On Sat, 18 Apr 2009 17:10:29 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
><grizzle...@comcast.net>wrote:
>
>>> Tarnish is silver sulphide. It is no oxide.
>>
>>You don't understand what "oxidation" means.
>>
>Hmmm then Rust is actually Iron Sulfide?
>
>I thought a high concentration of Sulfur had to be present for
>sulfidation to occur.?????????????????????????????????
You all also seem to miss the 'ide' part of all this. It may not be
"Silver Oxide"itself, but even the 'tarnish' that is based on grabbing
sulfur molecules out of the air, is still an oxidation process.
Sulf-IDE
FatBytestard
>ARCHIMEDES' IS A DESPERATE CHILD WITH CRIMINAL TENDENCIES
>THE SAD MELANCHOLIC OFF SPRING OF A CROSS BETWEEN HUMAN AND FAIRY TALE
>TROLL I CAN'T IMAGINE WHAT HIS PARENTS WERE THINKINGAT THE TIME NOR DO
>I THINK I WANT TO BUT THERE MUST BE A FILE A BOOK OR A FANTASY NOVEL
>SOMEWHERE THAT EXPLAINS IT
>
>I AM PROTEUS
Go back to your gay porn, Roy.
Chris Street
I hadn't missed that at all as I pointed out in the first post I made it
is a redox reaction. However oxidation products are not always oxides -
burn a jet of chlorine gas in a hydrogen atmopshere and chlorine is
reduced, hydrogen is oxidised, the oxidation product is hydrochloric
acid and no oxygen or oxide is to be found....
ingvald44
> On Apr 18, 6:09 pm, mick <not.h...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On Sat, 18 Apr 2009 13:54:52 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Borderline? Bwahahahahahaha! You must be new around here ;-)
>> :-D
>> Nice one Jim...
>>
>> --
>> Mick (Working in a M$-free zone!)
>> Web:http://www.nascom.info
>> Filtering everything posted from googlegroups to kill spam.
>
> There's nothing particularly "borderline" about it - it's just a name.
> The odd thing is that Phil probably falls
> a little into every personality disorder category, but not completely
> into any of them. I think they need a new one - Australian personality
> disorder :)
StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
Inasmuch as the fact that both are KOOKS, yes.
Michael A. Terrell
Its the 40 + generations of inbreeding. His family tree is just a
rotting stump. :(
Mr. Haney
<mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> Its the 40 + generations of inbreeding. His family tree is just a
>rotting stump. :(
Sad that the history of Alzheimer's and senility that runs in your
family is also obviously taking your mind as well.
Well, maybe it's not so sad after all...
UpGrade
Soon enough, he'll catch up to Thompson.
VWWall
UpGrade'ing Mr. Haney ought to be a cinch !
--
VWW
Michael A. Terrell
Dimbulb is replying to himself again, in the hope no one will notice
what an idiot he is.
If you look at the headers for both they will have the same IP
address:
NNTP-Posting-Host: 72.197.142.200
He is filtered because he never posts anything useful. He always
uses low grade insults that are barely on a third grade level, on his
few good days.
msg
<snip>
> Dimbulb is replying to himself again, in the hope no one will notice
> what an idiot he is.
>
> If you look at the headers for both they will have the same IP
> address:
>
> NNTP-Posting-Host: 72.197.142.200
<snip>
I have no knowledge of these particular posters or their ISPs but I caution
readers not to assume that identical NNTP-Posting-Host addresses automatically
mean the same user; some small ISPs assign RFC 1918 addresses to clients
and have a small block of public IPs exposed to the 'Net. Also, a public
access machine or a shared machine in a residence may conceivably be used
by different posters. Combining the weight of circumstantial evidence such as
posting IP address, user agent, bang path, etc. together with an analysis
of lexical style may result in a more cogent argument for a poster's identity.
Michael
prote...@gmail.com
<FatBytest...@somewheronyourharddrive.org> wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Apr 2009 10:36:27 -0700 (PDT), proteus...@gmail.com wrote:
> >ARCHIMEDES' IS A DESPERATE CHILD WITH CRIMINAL TENDENCIES
> >THE SAD MELANCHOLIC OFF SPRING OF A CROSS BETWEEN HUMAN AND FAIRY TALE
> >TROLL I CAN'T IMAGINE WHAT HIS PARENTS WERE THINKINGAT THE TIME NOR DO
> >I THINK I WANT TO BUT THERE MUST BE A FILE A BOOK OR A FANTASY NOVEL
> >SOMEWHERE THAT EXPLAINS IT
>
> >I AM PROTEUS
>
> Go back to your gay porn, Roy.
CLEAN MY PROBE CLOSET BOY
I AM NOT YOUR CRUSH ROY
I AM PROTEUS
Michael A. Terrell
He is on Cox cable, which assigns a dynamic IP address to a cable
modem, The only way it changes is to disconnect the modem long enough
for it to be assigned to someone else. My dynamic IP address is on the
same fiber optic backbone and hasn't changed in three years, even after
days of the electric being out after a storm. All you have to do is
read the headers and writing style. He is a boring little troll, with
delusions of being human.
StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
Yes and unless and until a crime has been committed, which it hasn't,
you can all fuck off and die.
spamtr...@gmail.com
wrote:
> Archimedes' Lever wrote:
> > On Sun, 19 Apr 2009 12:54:58 -0400, Meat Plow <m...@petitmorte.net>
> > wrote:
>
> >> On Sat, 18 Apr 2009 17:10:29 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
>
> >>>> Tarnish is silver sulphide. It is no oxide.
> >>> You don't understand what "oxidation" means.
>
> >> Hmmm then Rust is actually Iron Sulfide?
>
> >> I thought a high concentration of Sulfur had to be present for
> >> sulfidation to occur.?????????????????????????????????
>
> > You all also seem to miss the 'ide' part of all this. It may not be
> > "Silver Oxide"itself, but even the 'tarnish' that is based on grabbing
> > sulfur molecules out of the air, is still an oxidation process.
>
> > Sulf-IDE
>
> I hadn't missed that at all as I pointed out in the first post I made it
> is a redox reaction. However oxidation products are not always oxides -
> burn a jet of chlorine gas in a hydrogen atmopshere and chlorine is
> reduced, hydrogen is oxidised, the oxidation product is hydrochloric
The post to which I now devoutly wish I had left alone had referred to
Silver Oxide., and that's what I was trying to correct.
If there's a verb to use to refer specifically to turning an element
into its oxide, to eliminate confusion with the generalized oxidation
process, please let me know what it is
Chris Street
Combustion is probably the closest you are going to get. Oxidation is
generally associated with a loss of electrons, you could even argue that
something like a lewis acid and base is a redox reaction...
krw
Yes, Roy. We know you're off your meds, again.