Time delay of audio signal with passive components only
Perry Babin
components without introducing any attenuation?
Is there a formula?
I know that a signal is phase shifted at the crossover frequency when
using passive crossovers but there is also attenuation.
This would be used to time align signals from speakers that are not the
same distance from the listener.
Thanks
PB
Bill Sloman
> Is it possible to delay a signal going to a speaker with passive
> components without introducing any attenuation?
No. You need active components. You could put a "linear phase" active
all-pass or low-pass filter between the preamplifier and the
amplifier(s) driving the speaker.
The low-pass filter would cut off at a frequency higher than your
speaker would reproduce, pretty much at the same frequency that the
all-pass filter would stop looking like a pure delay.
In a digital system, you just stuff the data stream into memory and
leave it there for the delay - search on FIFO memories.
-----
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
Jim Meyer
> components without introducing any attenuation?
>
attenuation but it will be reasonably small.
An "all-pass" filter might also work.
Jim
Ban
Here is a Lattice-Allpass Delay-Equalizer of 4th-order.
It delays all frequencies below 1kHz by 0.707ms or 24.2cm.
|| 10uF || 7.6uF
o----+---||---------+------------+----||-------+--------o
| || | | || | |
| ___ 1mH | | ___1.8mH | |
+--UUU---------+ +----UUU------+ |
| | | | |
| ___ ||16uF | | ___ || | |
+--)--UUU--||-----+ +--)---UUU--||---+ .-.
| |0.68mH || | | 0.47mH ||27uF | |
| | | | 8R| |
| |0.68mH | | '-'
| | ___ ||16uF | | ___ ||27uF |
| + -UUU--||--+ | +---UUU--||-+ |
| || | | 0.47mH || | |
| 1mH ___ | |1.8mH ___ | |
+-----UUU------+ +-------UUU----+ |
| | | | |
| ||10uF | | 7.6uF || | |
o-+------||------+------------+-------||-----+----------o
|| ||
created by Andy´s ASCII-Circuit v1.22.310103 Beta www.tech-chat.de
ciao Ban
Blake Leverett
> Is it possible to delay a signal going to a speaker with passive
> components without introducing any attenuation?
Assuming you need delays in the millisecond range, no. I did see once a
device that had a bunch of long springs inside - they looked like the
spring you used to see on screen doors - about 0.4" in diameter and about a
foot long. There was a driver on one end and a receiver on the other.
This was a reverb (echo) device. It worked surprisingly well, but seems
bogus to my "modern" mind.
What are you trying to do?
Blake
John Larkin
wrote:
(speed of light) / (speed of sound) ~~ 1e6
so the coax might be long...
John
Jim Thompson
I remember a type of coax from my student days that had a center
conductor that was actually like a wound inductor.
We used it in transmission line labs to demonstrate mis-termination
effects... easy to see because the delays were in the milli-sec range.
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| Jim-T@analog_innovations.com Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
For proper E-mail replies SWAP "-" and "_"
Friends never serve friends White Zinfandel
Spehro Pefhany
<babin...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Is it possible to delay a signal going to a speaker with passive
>components without introducing any attenuation?
No, but a "box" could easily be made that would do this at signal
level if it was important.
Years ago, fixed delay lines for "reverb" were made by rattling one
end of a coil spring and listening at the other end. But, today that
kind of function can be done electronically (digitally or with other
devices).
>Is there a formula?
Delay required (in seconds) is the difference in speaker distance
divided by the speed of sound at the temperature and pressure where
the speakers are located.
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
sp...@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
Perry Babin
align separate component speakers that were at different distances from
the listener (in a car). He wanted to know if I could tell him how it
could be done. I told him that I didn't think it was possible to do
without attenuation but that I would check to make sure I was not giving
him bad information.
Thanks again
PB
--
Bill Sloman
And the resistive attenuation, when built with real inductors, is?
Admittedly, for the audio fruit-cake market you could probably sell a
filter in which the inductors were wound with high temperature
superconductors, and you had to fill up the filter box with liquid
nitrogen before you could start listening to music.
------------
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
Rudi Fischer
"Perry Babin" wrote
> Is it possible to delay a signal going to a speaker with passive
> components...
Yes
> ...without introducing any attenuation?
No
> Is there a formula?
> I know that a signal is phase shifted at the crossover frequency when
> using passive crossovers but there is also attenuation.
Look for delays.exe (DOS, 32kB) at
http://www.hal-pc.org/~bwhitejr/
Something like that was(?) used f.i. by Dyn*udio
to time-align (cm!) tweeters.
> This would be used to time align signals from speakers that are not the
> same distance from the listener.
But it's _not_ possible for distances that great.
You'll have to use DSP.
Rudi Fischer
--
...and may good music always be with you
Blake Leverett
> Someone told me that a guy was using purely passive components to time
> align separate component speakers that were at different distances from
> the listener (in a car). He wanted to know if I could tell him how it
> could be done. I told him that I didn't think it was possible to do
> without attenuation but that I would check to make sure I was not giving
> him bad information.
>
> Thanks again
> PB
If the speed of sound is 1100fps, then 4 feet of difference is about 3.6mS
of delay. You can make a delay line from inductors and caps, so maybe it's
possible to do this. I suspect it will use a lot of L's and C's, and they
will have to be pretty big to handle the current going to a speaker. I
haven't done any calculations, so I don't know just how many components
this will take. I don't think you will get much attenuation, but you may
have frequency effects - phase shifts and loss of some higher frequencies.
Blake
Ben Bradley
>Is it possible to delay a signal going to a speaker with passive
>components without introducing any attenuation?
No. But as others have shown, it may be possible to do such a thing
without "too much" attentuation.
>Is there a formula?
>
>I know that a signal is phase shifted at the crossover frequency when
>using passive crossovers but there is also attenuation.
>
>This would be used to time align signals from speakers that are not the
>same distance from the listener.
By far the best way to do this is with biamping or triamping (have
a separate power amplifier for each frequency range, connected
directly to the driver(s) handling that range) and do the time
alignment at line-level before the amplifier. Look at this crossover:
http://rane.com/ac22b.html
Notice there's a "delay" control. The schematic shows it controlling
two all-pass networks. This 'delay' is of course frequency-dependent,
but the critical part for time/phase alignment between drivers is in a
relatively narrow frequency range around the crossover frequency.
Re-reading that last sentence, if this is to time-align separate
loudspeakers whose distance to the listener may be different by more
than a couple of inches, this won't work. You would need a delay (such
as the now-classic analog BBD chips, or digital delay) for the
appropriate amount of time based on speed of sound.
>Thanks
>PB
Frank Miles
Jim Thompson <Jim-T@analog_innovations.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 22 May 2003 18:10:40 -0700, John Larkin
><jjla...@highlandSNIPtechTHISnologyPLEASE.com> wrote:
>
>>On 22 May 2003 09:56:29 -0700, jme...@nektonresearch.com (Jim Meyer)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Perry Babin <babin...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<3ECC29CF...@yahoo.com>...
>>>> Is it possible to delay a signal going to a speaker with passive
>>>> components without introducing any attenuation?
>>>>
>>> A length of coaxial cable will do a good job. There will be some
>>>attenuation but it will be reasonably small.
>>>
>>> An "all-pass" filter might also work.
>>>
>>>Jim
>>
>>
>> (speed of light) / (speed of sound) ~~ 1e6
>>
>>so the coax might be long...
>>
>>
>>John
>
>I remember a type of coax from my student days that had a center
>conductor that was actually like a wound inductor.
>We used it in transmission line labs to demonstrate mis-termination
>effects... easy to see because the delays were in the milli-sec range.
Assuming that the OP wants to do this at speaker-level impedances,
this too shows some serious problems: a transmission line long enough
to significantly delay an audio signal will yield some nasty reflections
if not properly terminated. If the line were clean enough, you might
be able to get away with singly-terminating at the power amplifier output;
though of course there would be attenuation associated with the termination.
(I presume that we won't attempt to impedance-flatten the speakers, yuck!)
It wouldn't be even that good, of course, because the inductors in such
a low impedance system would be pretty lousy.
Tektronix, for example, for years used a counter-wound delay line
in its lower-bandwidth (<= 100MHz) 'scopes where skin effect wasn't too
much of a problem. Pretty efficient in terms of delay/ft, but hard to
translate to speaker-level impedances. Even in the simple 'scope case it
had to be carefully double-terminated.
-frank
--
John Larkin
Electrical delay lines - at least at room temperature - are generally
terrible. Delay-to-risetime ratios are generally well below 100:1, and
even at that there's nasty dribbling. Elaborate equalization, with
associated losses, are needed for 'scope-quality delay lines.
A lumped-element line is really bad. A delay/risetime ratio of 50:1
takes 390 L-C sections. N = 1.1 * (Td/Tr)^1.5, ignoring losses!
Fiber optics, on the other hand, is amazing. If we have a fiber system
and need another couple hundred ns of delay, we just patch in a big
hank of cable; other than the delay, *nothing* else happens.
John
Marcello Golfieri
> Someone told me that a guy was using purely passive components to time
> align separate component speakers that were at different distances from
> the listener (in a car).
Nice to meet you guys,
I'm 'someone', aka Marcello Golfieri, an Italian college student from
Ferrara, Italy. I'm 23 years old, and I study computer engineering in
my home town. I acquired Babin's e-mail from his nice site "Basic Car
Audio Electronics" and thought: who else would be more appropriate
than him in resolving this problem?
I'll repost some e-mails I sent to Babin some time ago, in which I
exposed the car who really freaked me out. I suggest everyone to take
a look at the following links embedded in the following lines,
actually if you're not inside car-audio world, you'd have some
difficulties in interpretating the set-up of the car. The text is in
italian, I'll leave it that way so that you guys can use your favorite
on-line translator to read it thru, in your native language (if
non-US). Whatever question you got, please make me know.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ehi, Babin,
nice to write to you. Well, we are some folks from Italy who'd like
to know something about car audio fine tuning technics, such as
delaying a channel only with passive components (actually, that IS the
only thing we do care to know right now). We are kinda fans of sound
quality, rather than SPL or boomy cars. We actually feel sympathy for
you already, since we read the beginning of every page of your site...
By the way I lived in the US for a year (did the 4th year of hs, got
graduated, then got back here) and i remember what the situation was
with car audio overthere. Man, couldn't stand 'em...
Hope you write me back soon!
Good job babin, keep going this way!
Marcello
P.S. The two things I gotta delay are the sub and the sx channel.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks Babin for your attention,
I assure you that delaying wtih passive components is possible.
Actually
you get AMAZING results with them, without introducing dsps or
equalizers or
some other active appareils which would introduce inevitably some kind
of
unwanted background noise or whatever bad you don't want to listen to.
Go
to www.altrafedelta.it, actually the most important page in that site
is
this one,
http://www.altrafedelta.it/index.php?middle=3&idauto=1&modello=Audi%20Coupč.
The guy who made this miracle (I had the chance to try it twice, is
something incredible) is Roberto Tognon, the best installer in Italy,
and
one of the two only guys in my country who is capable of doing
delaying
passive circuits. The other one is Andrea aka HSS, and I know 'em
both.
The problem is, they would never let anybody know how these gadgets
work (I
do understand 'em, but I don't agree, by the way, I believe knowledge
has to
be shared, like you do in the first place with your site). Speaking
about
that winning streak all around europe, Tognon is known and respected
thru
all Europe, even in Sinsheim I saw lots of champions around every
country
coming to him and greeting him.
Now, I don't know about attenuation or stuff like that (don't worry, I
understand what you're saying), I can only say that he is able to
calculate
phase shifting for EACH tweeter, mid or woofer, combining shifting
from his
passive x-over and phase shifting from signal and speakers wires...
He in
fact uses wires which cost around 1000dollars per meter, all
handcrafted by a Tuscan big guy, and each of his
x-overs cost in components over than 250 dollars each! The schematics
of
his car is here
http://www.carhifi-eu.com/nuke/html/modules.php?name=Impianti&page=auditognon&npage=auditognonschema.html
while some images are here
http://www.carhifi-eu.com/nuke/html/modules.php?name=Impianti&page=auditognon&npage=auditognonimmagini.html
[--added in edit for sci.electronics.design--]
this is an accurate comment to it:
http://www.carhifi-eu.com/nuke/html/modules.php?name=Impianti&page=auditognon
Let me know something, if u need help with the italian, write me back,
i'll
be pleased to help you. U helped us so much with your site!
Marcello Golfieri
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, I may have written confusing concepts, I think, but to make it
short, even if attenuations have to be introduced, I don't really
care, 'cos I'm even ready to use X power to get just a tenth of it, as
long as:
1) The signal message itself remains as "mum made it" (Italian
popular saying)
2) The whole bunch of requested circuitry doesn't get HUGE dimension,
not at all!
3) That's why I'd not be that happy in using LENGHTS of cable in my
(small) car
4) DSPs really make it SOOO easy, but I don't get well along with
'em... (read: personal satisfaction, potential final results, wanna do
it too, etc. etc., that's it)
Well,
guess that's pretty much it, folks
I really thank you all, and Babin for addressing me toward you guys.
I'm really excited by this project, starting from now
sci.electronics.design has become one of my special bookmarks, even if
I doubt I'll be of any use, known my (low) knowledge in this very
matter.
Thanks in advance
Marcello Golfieri
Post Scriptum: I listened to that miracle, I then am sure about a
very one thing: this IS possible, just don't know how.
Marc H.Popek
amp. This amp had a knob marked "reverb". come to know it now as a
weighted delay line...
so the sound wave was coupled onto and off off this slinky as the audio
delay line!
Marco Polo
"Marcello Golfieri" <cri...@libero.it> wrote in message
news:1e7668f.03052...@posting.google.com...
Ban
> Nice to meet you guys,
>
> I'm 'someone', aka Marcello Golfieri, an Italian college student from
> Ferrara, Italy. I'm 23 years old, and I study computer engineering in
> my home town.
Hey Marcellino,
I believe you are 23, but I don't believe you study computer science...
>
> P.S. The two things I gotta delay are the sub and the sx channel.
>
>
This shows you have absolutly no idea about audio, sorry to say.
The subwoofer is already so much delayed due to the lowpass in the x-over,
you certainly want to delay the other channels to fit the phase response.
> I assure you that delaying wtih passive components is possible.
> Actually
> you get AMAZING results with them, without introducing dsps or
> equalizers or
> some other active appareils which would introduce inevitably some kind
> of
> unwanted background noise or whatever bad you don't want to listen to.
again a pathetic statement based on prejudices. Tell me where comes the
sound from in your car? A CD is already digital and can be read out
digitally. A DSP processing this data would not introduce anything audible
(if done properly).
Roberto Tognon, the best installer in Italy,
> and
> one of the two only guys in my country who is capable of doing
> delaying
> passive circuits. The other one is Andrea aka HSS, and I know 'em
> both.
> The problem is, they would never let anybody know how these gadgets
> work (I
> do understand 'em, but I don't agree, by the way, I believe knowledge
> has to
> be shared, like you do in the first place with your site).
Hey, if someone is in the HiFi-car-scene it doesn't mean this is all there
is. Marcello wake up! A very educated guy from your home town, his name is
Angelo Farina gives classes at Pisa University.
So if you want to admire someone working in audio-processing, take him. Then
you do not make this "bruta figura" posting to S.E.D
BTW I'm also living in Italy and I even gave you a diagram, so there must be
some more than these 2 guys.
...
> He in
> fact uses wires which cost around 1000dollars per meter, all
> handcrafted by a Tuscan big guy, and each of his
> x-overs cost in components over than 250 dollars each!
Boy, your family must have some money...
Better you learn something and earn money yourself.
Ciao Ban
Marcello Golfieri
> Marcello Golfieri wrote:
> > Nice to meet you guys,
> >
> > I'm 'someone', aka Marcello Golfieri, an Italian college student from
> > Ferrara, Italy. I'm 23 years old, and I study computer engineering in
> > my home town.
>
> Hey Marcellino,
> I believe you are 23, but I don't believe you study computer science...
>
Don't know how to call it, but I do study computer science, or
'informatica', my college id #43232. How come you don't believe it?
> >
> > P.S. The two things I gotta delay are the sub and the sx channel.
> >
> >
>
> This shows you have absolutly no idea about audio, sorry to say.
> The subwoofer is already so much delayed due to the lowpass in the x-over,
> you certainly want to delay the other channels to fit the phase response.
>
It looks like you love me, Ban. I appreciate people who trow s**t to
others's face, it's the best way to help persons. In your opinion,
dear Ban, why had I written those e-mails to Babin, then entered this
group, (BTW called sci.electronics.design, like the args discussed
weren't obvious...). Just to make people aware I'm the coolest guy,
I'm an expert in audio, I'm the best with computer, etc. etc.? C'mon,
you gotta wake up, and get better manners in human relationship...
> > I assure you that delaying wtih passive components is possible.
> > Actually
> > you get AMAZING results with them, without introducing dsps or
> > equalizers or
> > some other active appareils which would introduce inevitably some kind
> > of
> > unwanted background noise or whatever bad you don't want to listen to.
>
> again a pathetic statement based on prejudices. Tell me where comes the
> sound from in your car? A CD is already digital and can be read out
> digitally. A DSP processing this data would not introduce anything audible
> (if done properly).
>
Well, maybe you didn't read carefully what I wrote...
>
> Roberto Tognon, the best installer in Italy,
> > and
> > one of the two only guys in my country who is capable of doing
> > delaying
> > passive circuits. The other one is Andrea aka HSS, and I know 'em
> > both.
> > The problem is, they would never let anybody know how these gadgets
> > work (I
> > do understand 'em, but I don't agree, by the way, I believe knowledge
> > has to
> > be shared, like you do in the first place with your site).
>
> Hey, if someone is in the HiFi-car-scene it doesn't mean this is all there
> is. Marcello wake up! A very educated guy from your home town, his name is
> Angelo Farina gives classes at Pisa University.
> So if you want to admire someone working in audio-processing, take him. Then
> you do not make this "bruta figura" posting to S.E.D
> BTW I'm also living in Italy and I even gave you a diagram, so there must be
> some more than these 2 guys.
> ...
Well, OK, next time gotta add to "best installer" the words "I know so
far".
Txs for the name of Angelo Farina, this is actually, along with the
diagram, the only two good things you produced, don't worry Ban, I'll
go around and say that the 3 best ones are in Italy, one of these is
American.
> > He in
> > fact uses wires which cost around 1000dollars per meter, all
> > handcrafted by a Tuscan big guy, and each of his
> > x-overs cost in components over than 250 dollars each!
>
> Boy, your family must have some money...
Yes, it does, txs, it's a family which believes in facts, not in just
words.
> Better you learn something and earn money yourself.
In fact I do. Gotta talk when you know things, buddy... First of
all, I don't live anymore with my parents. Second, while I study, I
work as an external consultant in computers and networks 2 days a
week, whenever I want, in CGIL, Ferrara, and next year I should work
evening-time as a teacher in linux, networks, and their integration
with windows in Bologna. Plus, every time people calls me for
problems with the pcs. You do the math (you should be able, right?)
Actually, I gotta start my military year the 3 of June, that means I
get from the state just 90 euros per month, 'til march of next year.
And you should know in Italy is compulsory...
>
> Ciao Ban
Actually, "So long Ban". Unless you'd like to meet me and discuss,
don't worry, my family taught me various things, among these, being
polite and not to beat the crap out of people I don't like
instantly... Believe me or not, I'd like to know you, just because I
miss a little talking in American, and because getting in harsh
discussions the first time I know someone usually wishes me luck. And,
last but not least, we DO have something to talk about.
Marcello
John Larkin
<babin...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Someone told me that a guy was using purely passive components to time
>align separate component speakers that were at different distances from
>the listener (in a car). He wanted to know if I could tell him how it
>could be done. I told him that I didn't think it was possible to do
>without attenuation but that I would check to make sure I was not giving
>him bad information.
>
>Thanks again
>PB
>
Why would anybody want to equalize time delays in a car, to compensate
for distances? That's nuts. Do they thing all the musical instruments
were precisely the same distance from mikes when the music was
recorded? Do they think the sound paths are direct line-of-sight in
the car? Do they think the speakers are phase-linear?
Audio evokes massive kookery.
John
Ban
> "Ban" <ban...@masterweb.it> wrote in message
> news:<VyCza.235383$K35.5...@news2.tin.it>...
>> Marcello Golfieri wrote:
>>> Nice to meet you guys,
>>>
>>> I'm 'someone', aka Marcello Golfieri, an Italian college student
>>> from
>>> Ferrara, Italy. I'm 23 years old, and I study computer engineering
>>> in
>>> my home town.
>>
>> Hey Marcellino,
>> I believe you are 23, but I don't believe you study computer
>> science...
>>
>
Bingo, the only estimation which was wrong.
Of course I knew that you were studying, I just wrote it to provoke you.
>
>
> Don't know how to call it, but I do study computer science, or
> 'informatica', my college id #43232. How come you don't believe it?
>
>>>
>>> P.S. The two things I gotta delay are the sub and the sx channel.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> This shows you have absolutly no idea about audio, sorry to say.
>> The subwoofer is already so much delayed due to the lowpass in the
>> x-over,
>> you certainly want to delay the other channels to fit the phase
>> response.
>>
>
> It looks like you love me, Ban. I appreciate people who trow s**t to
> others's face, it's the best way to help persons.
My dear Marcello, I just pressed a couple of your buttons to make you aware
of your prejudices. It is better to know the things *yourself*. That is what
an engineer does. And he studies until he has understood.
>
>
> Txs for the name of Angelo Farina, this is actually, along with the
> diagram, the only two good things you produced, don't worry Ban, I'll
> go around and say that the 3 best ones are in Italy, one of these is
> American.
>
I'm happy when you appreciate, but you are wrong again, I'm not American, I
was born in Germany.
> In fact I do. Gotta talk when you know things, buddy... First of
> all, I don't live anymore with my parents.
Very good. I bet you have a good sound system at your place?
> I gotta start my military year the 3 of June, that means I
> get from the state just 90 euros per month, 'til march of next year.
> And you should know in Italy is compulsory...
>
>
I never went to the army because my father was an officer, enough is enough.
So another circuit here for you:
When you insert a lowpass filter into the subwoofer line it creates a delay.
Let's take a 4th order Bessel-LP with 80Hz fo(-3dB).
The x-over filter will delay the subwoofer signal by 4.2ms or 1.44m.
The delay EQ down has exactly the same phase response but keeps all
amplitudes equal. The transformer can be one of these mains chokes.
||112uF
+---||-----+
| || |
o-------+---. ,----+------o
3.7mH )|( 3.7mH |
)|( |
+-' '-+ |
| | |
+--+--+ |
| .-.
| | |
--- | |4R
--- 934uF '-'
| |
| |
C| |
C|1.8mH |
C| |
| |
o------------+------------o
created by Andy´s ASCII-Circuit v1.22.310103 Beta www.tech-chat.de
ciao Ban
Perry Babin
> Why would anybody want to equalize time delays in a car, to compensate
> for distances? That's nuts. Do they thing all the musical instruments
> were precisely the same distance from mikes when the music was
> recorded? Do they think the sound paths are direct line-of-sight in
> the car? Do they think the speakers are phase-linear?
>
> Audio evokes massive kookery.
>
> John
I asked the question because I had never heard of doing it with
'passive' components and simply wanted to know if it was possible.
I don't use time alignment in my vehicle. I do know that some
competitors in high SPL competitions use time delay units to perfectly
match the phase of speakers. Even though the low frequencies have very
long wavelengths, time alignment seems to help when the difference
between the individual speakers and the microphone are not exactly the
same. If there are five rows of speakers and each row is 18 inches more
away from the mic, you start to get significant amounts of out of phase
energy at the mic. Of course, this type of time alignment is all done
electronically. When you're trying to get every last tenth of dB of
pressure, time alignment helps some vehicles.
As for time alignment with high end systems, I can see where it may be
helpful. For most high end systems, you want only a single driver for
each channel for each group of frequencies (highs and mids are most
critical). The reason you don't want (for example) 2 tweeters on each
channel (especially in a car) is because it's virtually impossible to
keep them the same distance from your ears. Since they are playing
precisely the signal, you will get dips and peaks (at different
distances) in response where the signals either combine or cancel each
other to varying degrees (at high frequencies, you can hear this by
moving you head just a little). If you only have a single tweeter on
each channel but the same signal is being reproduced by both tweeters,
it figures that would likely sound better if the signals were time
aligned (unless you are driving a vehicle with the driver's seat located
precisely in the middle of the vehicle).
PB
--
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* more than 400 different diagrams/pictures
*wav files for demos
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Marcello Golfieri
> > for distances? That's nuts. Do they thing all the musical instruments
> > were precisely the same distance from mikes when the music was
> > recorded? Do they think the sound paths are direct line-of-sight in
> > the car? Do they think the speakers are phase-linear?
> >
> > Audio evokes massive kookery.
> >
> > John
>
DURING RECORDING TIME!!!! IF AT A CLASSICAL CONCERT VARIOUS
INSTRUMENTS WERE PLAYING AT DISTANCES X, Y, Z, ..., I WANT TO GET THE
FEELING OF ESTIMATE THE DISTANCE IN MY CAR OF
X,Y,Z!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hope you'll understand this... Ah, kookery, you gotta do something
for that, or it'll get even worse, buddy...
Marcello Golfieri
Look up this very link: http://pcangelo.eng.unipr.it/ask/
Nice, uh?
Marcello
Perry Babin <babin...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<3ECC29CF...@yahoo.com>...
Boris Mohar
>Admittedly, for the audio fruit-cake market you could probably sell a
>filter in which the inductors were wound with high temperature
>superconductors, and you had to fill up the filter box with liquid
>nitrogen before you could start listening to music.
>
>------------
>Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
Liquid nitrogen is a no-no. It makes the sound way too brittle ;)
--
Boris Mohar
Ken Smith
Perry Babin <babin...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Is it possible to delay a signal going to a speaker with passive
>components without introducing any attenuation?
There have been many other replies but I don't think anyone asked the
obvious question "Why not just move the speaker a few feet?".
--
--
kens...@rahul.net forging knowledge
Rudi Fischer
"Ken Smith" wrote
> Perry Babin wrote:
> >Is it possible to delay a signal going to a speaker with passive
> >components without introducing any attenuation?
> There have been many other replies but I don't think anyone asked the
> obvious question "Why not just move the speaker a few feet?".
The obvious answer to that is:
You didn't read Perry's explanation
news:3ECFD536...@yahoo.com
;-)
cbir...@gmail.com
> Is it possible to delay a signal going to a speaker with passive
> components without introducing any attenuation?
>
>
> I know that a signal is phase shifted at the crossover frequency when
> using passive crossovers but there is also attenuation.
>
> This would be used to time align signals from speakers that are not the
> same distance from the listener.
>
> Thanks
> PB
Can do delay lines in radio but not audio because approx speed of light vs sound.
I had to check that nobody was using "launch reels" or something though.
Rick C
--
Rick C.
- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
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dca...@krl.org
> Is it possible to delay a signal going to a speaker with passive
> components without introducing any attenuation?
>
>
> PB
Take a look at " pt2399 ". It is not passive, but it is easy to use. You can find assemled boards on Ebay and AliExpress.
Dan
Phil Hobbs
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com
Cursitor Doom
<pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>A spring reverb.
Good idea, Phil. They probably still had those back in 2003. :-D
--
"When constituencies are small their elected representatives must concern themselves with
the local interests of their constituents. When political representatives are distant and
faceless, on the other hand, and represent vast numbers of unknown constituents, they
represent not their constituents, but special interest groups whose lobbyists are numerous
and ever present. Typically in Europe a technocrat is an ex-politician or a civil servant.
He is unelected, virtually impossible to dislodge during his term of employment and has
been granted extensive executive and even legislative power without popular mandate and
without being directly answerable to the people whose interests he falsely purports to
represent."
- Sir James Goldsmith (Member of the European Parliament) 1933 - 1997
Robert Baer
> On Tue, 24 Dec 2019 22:47:36 -0500, Phil Hobbs
> <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>
>
>> A spring reverb.
>
> Good idea, Phil. They probably still had those back in 2003. :-D
>
boB
<gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Tuesday, December 24, 2019 at 8:02:30 PM UTC-5, cbir...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Wednesday, May 21, 2003 at 8:37:19 PM UTC-5, Perry Babin wrote:
>> > Is it possible to delay a signal going to a speaker with passive
>> > components without introducing any attenuation?
>> >
>> > Is there a formula?
>> >
>> > I know that a signal is phase shifted at the crossover frequency when
>> > using passive crossovers but there is also attenuation.
>> >
>> > This would be used to time align signals from speakers that are not the
>> > same distance from the listener.
>> >
>> > Thanks
>> > PB
>>
>> I too am curious.
>> Can do delay lines in radio but not audio because approx speed of light vs sound.
>> I had to check that nobody was using "launch reels" or something though.
>
>The person you replied to has waited 16 years for your answer. Are you going to wait another 16 years for a reply?