[OT] Evaporative cooler, brands other than Champion/Essick?

[Joerg]

Folks,

The fan motor in our swamp cooler died for the 2nd time, this time it
lasted only one year or about 1500 hours. Pathetic. The cooler
manufacturer (Essick Air) was unapologetic in both cases, zero courtesy
and essentially told in a rather unfriendly way "Too bad, no warranty,
you must pay".

I'd like to get a bigger unit but of course I am now leery of this
manufacturer (Champion/Essick). I no longer believe their quality is up
to par. Is there any other manufacturer that makes something like in the
link below and isn't outrageously expensive?

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Champion-Cooler-4700-CFM-2-Speed-Window-Evaporative-Cooler-for-1600-sq-ft-with-Motor-WC50/202530245#specifications

I know there's Mastercool but their units are much deeper. Since this
has to be placed on a deck and we have to at least be able to squeeze by
I can't go much deeper than 35" wall-breakthrough to end of unit.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[Jim Thompson]

On Tue, 08 Jul 2014 11:10:52 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

Why don't you replace the motor with a better-quality/higher-HP-rated
unit? Sounds possibly like a motor not rated for the load... or do
you run it fan-only sometimes ?>:-}

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

[Joerg]

Jim Thompson wrote:
> On Tue, 08 Jul 2014 11:10:52 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> Folks,
>>
>> The fan motor in our swamp cooler died for the 2nd time, this time it
>> lasted only one year or about 1500 hours. Pathetic. The cooler
>> manufacturer (Essick Air) was unapologetic in both cases, zero courtesy
>> and essentially told in a rather unfriendly way "Too bad, no warranty,
>> you must pay".
>>
>> I'd like to get a bigger unit but of course I am now leery of this
>> manufacturer (Champion/Essick). I no longer believe their quality is up
>> to par. Is there any other manufacturer that makes something like in the
>> link below and isn't outrageously expensive?
>>
>> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Champion-Cooler-4700-CFM-2-Speed-Window-Evaporative-Cooler-for-1600-sq-ft-with-Motor-WC50/202530245#specifications
>>
>> I know there's Mastercool but their units are much deeper. Since this
>> has to be placed on a deck and we have to at least be able to squeeze by
>> I can't go much deeper than 35" wall-breakthrough to end of unit.
>
> Why don't you replace the motor with a better-quality/higher-HP-rated
> unit? Sounds possibly like a motor not rated for the load... or do
> you run it fan-only sometimes ?>:-}
>

Unfortunately this unit is double-shaft direct-drive with one squirrel
cage per side. So it's a special motor and only Genteq makes that. And
there's the problem ...

[Don Y]

Hi Joerg,

The unit mentioned above is, then, NOT the unit you currently have
(as the cited unit has a single, belt driven squirrel cage).

Given that you've had this problem *twice*, perhaps consider
fixing the design?

Replace motor with a shaft and an (extra?) pair of pillow blocks
(to support the shaft where the motor bearings had, previously).
Then, a right angle gear drive (allows the motor to be mounted
perpendicular to this shaft) *or* a belt and pulley (allowing the
motor to be mounted parallel but displaced in space).

Depending on the internal construction, you may be able to slide
one of the squirrel cages into the place the motor nominally occupies
and drive it from the *end* instead of middle (undoubtedly at some
reduction in air flow -- compensate with increased speed?)

There are also shops that will rewind your motor for you -- or,
fab an identical one (cooler motors being a reasonably big business
in the places that use them).

Of course, if the cooler has "other problems" (e.g., rusted pan),
then there's no incentive to keep any of it!

We use a downdraft so not readily comparable in design, efficiency,
etc.

[Actually, I should say *used* as SWMBO prefers running the ACbrrr
instead of cooler/ACbrrr swap. I'd much prefer to use the cooler
esp during the Summer season (when it is not humid)]

[Joerg]

Yes, that's the size I am eying. What we have is a smaller direct drive one.

> Given that you've had this problem *twice*, perhaps consider
> fixing the design?
>
> Replace motor with a shaft and an (extra?) pair of pillow blocks
> (to support the shaft where the motor bearings had, previously).
> Then, a right angle gear drive (allows the motor to be mounted
> perpendicular to this shaft) *or* a belt and pulley (allowing the
> motor to be mounted parallel but displaced in space).
>
> Depending on the internal construction, you may be able to slide
> one of the squirrel cages into the place the motor nominally occupies
> and drive it from the *end* instead of middle (undoubtedly at some
> reduction in air flow -- compensate with increased speed?)
>
> There are also shops that will rewind your motor for you -- or,
> fab an identical one (cooler motors being a reasonably big business
> in the places that use them).
>
> Of course, if the cooler has "other problems" (e.g., rusted pan),
> then there's no incentive to keep any of it!
>

It's not rusted (yet) but a bit too small. Anyhow, I am sick of fixing
bugs that manufacturers weren't competent enough to avoid in the first
place. Have to do that with too much other gear already, such as bicycle
gear. I just want to buy something that done right. Something that
simply works.

> We use a downdraft so not readily comparable in design, efficiency,
> etc.
>
> [Actually, I should say *used* as SWMBO prefers running the ACbrrr
> instead of cooler/ACbrrr swap. I'd much prefer to use the cooler
> esp during the Summer season (when it is not humid)]

We love evaporative cooling. No more stuffed noses and sinus aches in
summer, as it frequenctly happens when in buildings with old-style A/C.

[Don Y]

Hi Joerg,

On 7/8/2014 12:26 PM, Joerg wrote:

>> The unit mentioned above is, then, NOT the unit you currently have
>> (as the cited unit has a single, belt driven squirrel cage).
>
> Yes, that's the size I am eying. What we have is a smaller direct drive one.

OK. So, aside from the name of the manufacturer, it fits your needs?

>> Given that you've had this problem *twice*, perhaps consider
>> fixing the design?
>>
>> Replace motor with a shaft and an (extra?) pair of pillow blocks
>> (to support the shaft where the motor bearings had, previously).
>> Then, a right angle gear drive (allows the motor to be mounted
>> perpendicular to this shaft) *or* a belt and pulley (allowing the
>> motor to be mounted parallel but displaced in space).
>>
>> Depending on the internal construction, you may be able to slide
>> one of the squirrel cages into the place the motor nominally occupies
>> and drive it from the *end* instead of middle (undoubtedly at some
>> reduction in air flow -- compensate with increased speed?)
>>
>> There are also shops that will rewind your motor for you -- or,
>> fab an identical one (cooler motors being a reasonably big business
>> in the places that use them).
>>
>> Of course, if the cooler has "other problems" (e.g., rusted pan),
>> then there's no incentive to keep any of it!
>
> It's not rusted (yet) but a bit too small. Anyhow, I am sick of fixing
> bugs that manufacturers weren't competent enough to avoid in the first

Understood. Our 18 mo old washing machine had a failure of the
door latch (lock) mechanism -- despite the fact that there are
just two of us using it so how many times (loads) do you think
the door was opened/closed in that period?

Manufacturer replaced it free of charge -- out of warranty.
*But*, the replacement part had the identical PLASTIC construction
as the part that it had replaced! Wanna bet we get 18 mos out
of this one, as well?? :<

[Why use a plastic part in a location that sees a fair bit of
UNCONSTRAINED mechanical wear and tear?]

> place. Have to do that with too much other gear already, such as bicycle
> gear. I just want to buy something that done right. Something that
> simply works.

I suspect you will find the availability of such devices is ever
decreasing. Not just becoming more expensive but simply not
manufactured -- at all! (or, at prices that only fools would pay!)

>> We use a downdraft so not readily comparable in design, efficiency,
>> etc.
>>
>> [Actually, I should say *used* as SWMBO prefers running the ACbrrr
>> instead of cooler/ACbrrr swap. I'd much prefer to use the cooler
>> esp during the Summer season (when it is not humid)]
>
> We love evaporative cooling. No more stuffed noses and sinus aches in
> summer, as it frequenctly happens when in buildings with old-style A/C.

You're preaching to the choir! Unfortunately, my "single vote" seems
to be worth a lot less than HER "single vote"! :-/

Good luck!

[Are coolers even effective this time of year where you are located?
Or, do you have a respite until "Autumn"?]

[Joerg]

Don Y wrote:
> Hi Joerg,
>
> On 7/8/2014 12:26 PM, Joerg wrote:
>
>>> The unit mentioned above is, then, NOT the unit you currently have
>>> (as the cited unit has a single, belt driven squirrel cage).
>>
>> Yes, that's the size I am eying. What we have is a smaller direct
>> drive one.
>
> OK. So, aside from the name of the manufacturer, it fits your needs?
>

Yes, it would. But I do not trust the manufacturer any longer. My hunch
is that they are the only game in town which may be the reason for their
IMHO rather rude behavior. If so, then I won't have a choice. Must buy
at the company store or whatever.

Many engineers are just amateurs these days.

> [Why use a plastic part in a location that sees a fair bit of
> UNCONSTRAINED mechanical wear and tear?]
>

On the risk of sounding a bit unpatriotic here: "Buy American" seems to
no longer be worth it. Seriously.

>> place. Have to do that with too much other gear already, such as bicycle
>> gear. I just want to buy something that done right. Something that
>> simply works.
>
> I suspect you will find the availability of such devices is ever
> decreasing. Not just becoming more expensive but simply not
> manufactured -- at all! (or, at prices that only fools would pay!)
>

I give the bicycle lights one more try after I found some where at least
the body is aluminum (don't get me started on the innards though ...).
Made somewhere in Asia, and I don't care. If these don't hold I'll
simply buy several dozen of the cheapest Chinese lights I can find,
mount two pairs and just keep replacing them if one flies off like it
did a few weeks ago.

>>> We use a downdraft so not readily comparable in design, efficiency,
>>> etc.
>>>
>>> [Actually, I should say *used* as SWMBO prefers running the ACbrrr
>>> instead of cooler/ACbrrr swap. I'd much prefer to use the cooler
>>> esp during the Summer season (when it is not humid)]
>>
>> We love evaporative cooling. No more stuffed noses and sinus aches in
>> summer, as it frequenctly happens when in buildings with old-style A/C.
>
> You're preaching to the choir! Unfortunately, my "single vote" seems
> to be worth a lot less than HER "single vote"! :-/
>
> Good luck!
>
> [Are coolers even effective this time of year where you are located?
> Or, do you have a respite until "Autumn"?]

They are very effective. The last two days have been hot and muggy and
to my surprise the cooler turns 94F into 71F right now. So the humidity
must still be decently low.

It just doesn't have enough power to move the air all the way back
through my office here. I don't mind but the PC does. Heat doesn't
bother me much and I have no problems mountain biking in 100F+ weather.
The only non-fun part of it is that then nobody wants to join me and I
have to ride alone.

[mako...@yahoo.com]

what failed in the motor(s)?

I had an evap fan motor fail because the winding termination was a little long and the wire was able to vibrate.... until it broke..... Pretty easy to fix.

This was a belt drive to a squirrel cage if I recall.


Mark

[Joerg]

mako...@yahoo.com wrote:
> what failed in the motor(s)?
>

The first one spewed an impressive plume of smoke into the house. The
second one started a bearing screech. I am nursing it along with copious
amounts of Triflow and other oil, hoping it'll hang on until the new
motor gets here.

Despite ordering early on yesterday they didn't ship it until today and
with the cheapest Fedex method. Tracking says estimated delivery N/A. Of
course Essick Air charged us a fat shipping cost anyhow.

> I had an evap fan motor fail because the winding termination was a
> little long and the wire was able to vibrate.... until it broke.....
> Pretty easy to fix.
>
> This was a belt drive to a squirrel cage if I recall.
>

Direct drive would work well if they would understand the word quality.
We have many fans that are decades old, run almost all summer, and
directly drive a big propeller. None ever failed.

[Don Y]

>> Understood. Our 18 mo old washing machine had a failure of the
>> door latch (lock) mechanism -- despite the fact that there are
>> just two of us using it so how many times (loads) do you think
>> the door was opened/closed in that period?
>>
>> Manufacturer replaced it free of charge -- out of warranty.
>> *But*, the replacement part had the identical PLASTIC construction
>> as the part that it had replaced! Wanna bet we get 18 mos out
>> of this one, as well?? :<
>
> Many engineers are just amateurs these days.
>
>> [Why use a plastic part in a location that sees a fair bit of
>> UNCONSTRAINED mechanical wear and tear?]
>
> On the risk of sounding a bit unpatriotic here: "Buy American" seems to
> no longer be worth it. Seriously.

In our case, I am reasonably sure no American hands (other than
salesmen!) touched it -- in design *or* manufacture!

>> [Are coolers even effective this time of year where you are located?
>> Or, do you have a respite until "Autumn"?]
>
> They are very effective. The last two days have been hot and muggy and
> to my surprise the cooler turns 94F into 71F right now. So the humidity
> must still be decently low.

Once Monsoon starts, we know the cooler is just not going to cut it.
Doesn't take much humidity to make outdoor temps of 100F+ impractical
with the cooler -- hence our use of the ACbrrr in that season.

For *Summer*, no argument -- 110 outside and easily below 80 indoors
(though if you're wise, you cool while the outdoor temps are lower
and then button up the house for the afternoon hours)

> It just doesn't have enough power to move the air all the way back
> through my office here. I don't mind but the PC does. Heat doesn't
> bother me much and I have no problems mountain biking in 100F+ weather.
> The only non-fun part of it is that then nobody wants to join me and I
> have to ride alone.

Supplemental fans to help circulation? (ours is centrally delivered
so not an issue)

[Don Y]

On 7/8/2014 3:47 PM, Joerg wrote:
> mako...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> what failed in the motor(s)?
>
> The first one spewed an impressive plume of smoke into the house. The
> second one started a bearing screech. I am nursing it along with copious
> amounts of Triflow and other oil, hoping it'll hang on until the new
> motor gets here.

Pull the old motor apart when you've installed the replacement.
If it's just a *bushing*, you're probably screwed. But, if
there is a genuine bearing on each end of the shaft, you can
usually replace them (arbor press comes in handy).

> Despite ordering early on yesterday they didn't ship it until today and
> with the cheapest Fedex method. Tracking says estimated delivery N/A. Of
> course Essick Air charged us a fat shipping cost anyhow.
>
>> I had an evap fan motor fail because the winding termination was a
>> little long and the wire was able to vibrate.... until it broke.....
>> Pretty easy to fix.
>>
>> This was a belt drive to a squirrel cage if I recall.
>
> Direct drive would work well if they would understand the word quality.
> We have many fans that are decades old, run almost all summer, and
> directly drive a big propeller. None ever failed.

Dynamic balancing of the load is key to longevity -- esp if the
housing/bearings aren't designed for that sort of abuse.

Many (large) quirrel cages just use sintered bronze bushings. This
can work OK for a belt drive where the belt helps isolate the
vibrations from the squirrel cage's imbalance from directly
affecting the motor (shaft).

[Joerg]

Don Y wrote:
> On 7/8/2014 3:47 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> mako...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> what failed in the motor(s)?
>>
>> The first one spewed an impressive plume of smoke into the house. The
>> second one started a bearing screech. I am nursing it along with copious
>> amounts of Triflow and other oil, hoping it'll hang on until the new
>> motor gets here.
>
> Pull the old motor apart when you've installed the replacement.
> If it's just a *bushing*, you're probably screwed. But, if
> there is a genuine bearing on each end of the shaft, you can
> usually replace them (arbor press comes in handy).
>

AFAIR it's just a cheap bushing. Hence the oiling points where you are
supposed to add oil after two years. IME, once a bushing motor has had a
screeching episode it's toast. I will keep the old one stored in the
garage in case motor #3 suffers a spectacular failure which it probably
will in the not too distant future.

>> Despite ordering early on yesterday they didn't ship it until today and
>> with the cheapest Fedex method. Tracking says estimated delivery N/A. Of
>> course Essick Air charged us a fat shipping cost anyhow.
>>
>>> I had an evap fan motor fail because the winding termination was a
>>> little long and the wire was able to vibrate.... until it broke.....
>>> Pretty easy to fix.
>>>
>>> This was a belt drive to a squirrel cage if I recall.
>>
>> Direct drive would work well if they would understand the word quality.
>> We have many fans that are decades old, run almost all summer, and
>> directly drive a big propeller. None ever failed.
>
> Dynamic balancing of the load is key to longevity -- esp if the
> housing/bearings aren't designed for that sort of abuse.
>

Oh yeah. When I got this cooler I had to spend a solid hour balancing
each squirrel cage. Because Essick Air obviously could not be bothered
to do that in production.

> Many (large) quirrel cages just use sintered bronze bushings. This
> can work OK for a belt drive where the belt helps isolate the
> vibrations from the squirrel cage's imbalance from directly
> affecting the motor (shaft).

I made sure that all vibration was gone. This also made the cooler run
more quiet. When it arrived years ago it made one heck of a racket.

[Joerg]

Don Y wrote:
>>> Understood. Our 18 mo old washing machine had a failure of the
>>> door latch (lock) mechanism -- despite the fact that there are
>>> just two of us using it so how many times (loads) do you think
>>> the door was opened/closed in that period?
>>>
>>> Manufacturer replaced it free of charge -- out of warranty.
>>> *But*, the replacement part had the identical PLASTIC construction
>>> as the part that it had replaced! Wanna bet we get 18 mos out
>>> of this one, as well?? :<
>>
>> Many engineers are just amateurs these days.
>>
>>> [Why use a plastic part in a location that sees a fair bit of
>>> UNCONSTRAINED mechanical wear and tear?]
>>
>> On the risk of sounding a bit unpatriotic here: "Buy American" seems to
>> no longer be worth it. Seriously.
>
> In our case, I am reasonably sure no American hands (other than
> salesmen!) touched it -- in design *or* manufacture!
>

Our cooler was produced in America. The motor was produced in Mexico.

>>> [Are coolers even effective this time of year where you are located?
>>> Or, do you have a respite until "Autumn"?]
>>
>> They are very effective. The last two days have been hot and muggy and
>> to my surprise the cooler turns 94F into 71F right now. So the humidity
>> must still be decently low.
>
> Once Monsoon starts, we know the cooler is just not going to cut it.
> Doesn't take much humidity to make outdoor temps of 100F+ impractical
> with the cooler -- hence our use of the ACbrrr in that season.
>
> For *Summer*, no argument -- 110 outside and easily below 80 indoors
> (though if you're wise, you cool while the outdoor temps are lower
> and then button up the house for the afternoon hours)
>

I don't like buttoned-up houses much, gives me headaches when working
hard on a design. I like fresh air. One reason why I don't do too well
in some corporate buildings.

>> It just doesn't have enough power to move the air all the way back
>> through my office here. I don't mind but the PC does. Heat doesn't
>> bother me much and I have no problems mountain biking in 100F+ weather.
>> The only non-fun part of it is that then nobody wants to join me and I
>> have to ride alone.
>
> Supplemental fans to help circulation? (ours is centrally delivered
> so not an issue)

I was thinking about that but can't reasonably tie an evap cooler into
the ductwork. So it's blowing directly into the house. Which is ok, it
just doesn't have enough oomph to push the air all the way here to the
office. So I need one with more oomph. Of course, a 10amp motor means we
will have to remember to turn it off when vacuuming.

[rickman]

On 7/8/2014 8:36 PM, Joerg wrote:
> Don Y wrote:
>> On 7/8/2014 3:47 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>> mako...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> what failed in the motor(s)?
>>>
>>> The first one spewed an impressive plume of smoke into the house. The
>>> second one started a bearing screech. I am nursing it along with copious
>>> amounts of Triflow and other oil, hoping it'll hang on until the new
>>> motor gets here.
>>
>> Pull the old motor apart when you've installed the replacement.
>> If it's just a *bushing*, you're probably screwed. But, if
>> there is a genuine bearing on each end of the shaft, you can
>> usually replace them (arbor press comes in handy).
>>
>
> AFAIR it's just a cheap bushing. Hence the oiling points where you are
> supposed to add oil after two years. IME, once a bushing motor has had a
> screeching episode it's toast. I will keep the old one stored in the
> garage in case motor #3 suffers a spectacular failure which it probably
> will in the not too distant future.

That is simply not true. It may not be optimal, but they can continue
to work. I have a large window fan that was my grandmother's. The
bushings needed to be oiled on a regular basis. If you let it to too
long it would make noise and even not start. But a bit of oil and some
turning by hand would always get it working again.

--

Rick

[haitic...@gmail.com]

What is the water consumption of this cooler?
I always thought they were crude devices.
jb

[Joerg]

Big difference. That fan was from the days when manufacturers still
understood the word quality. My experience with "modern"
bushing-equipped motors is that they show noticable play in the bushings
after a screech where there was no play before.

[Joerg]

Seems to be miniscule because it didn't make much of a dent in our water
bill after I installed it. The water goes round and round in there, only
the evaporated part gets replaced.

> I always thought they were crude devices.

Yeah, but they sure work and save a ton of energy. Of course, you get
zero tax incentive for installing those because government bureaucrats
cannot understand that saving 80-90% of the power versus the big A/C is
more than saving 15% by installing a higher SEER A/C (for which they
give a fat tax write-off).

Swamp coolers also make for a nicer climate in the house. I easily get
headaches when a regular A/C is running. Not so with the swamp cooler.

[haitic...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, July 9, 2014 12:17:55 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:

Yes, to me, "Crude" = Good. In this case.
Ever think about making one? Can't you take a window fan
pus ag fabric or something? (Ag fabric with holes in it fed by a
soaker hose? )

[Joerg]

> Ever think about making one? ...


Oh absolutely. I can clearly make one that beats any commercial cooler
in quality, without breaking the bank. But my consulting business does
not leave me enough time to do that. The few times I can sneak out early
I rather go mountain biking.


> ... Can't you take a window fan

> pus ag fabric or something? (Ag fabric with holes in it fed by a
> soaker hose? )
>

That's IMHO the wrong approach, using cheapo consumer products isn't the
ticket because they'll fail soon.

My solution would have PID controlled VF-driven motors for the pump and
the big fan to adjust the climate inside the house without making any
sudden loud noises. It would also be self-cleaing by regularly stirring
and dumping the pan contents automatically. It would sense when the
temp-delta is too low and also when to go into fan-only mode. Stuff that
this industry is never going to figure out on their own.

[rickman]

I think the problem is that there are relatively few locations where it
is hot, dry and water is available enough to be consumed for cooling. I
expect it is along the lines of geothermal in terms of just how many
people could actually make use of swamp coolers.

BTW, that energy savings, is that a long ton, a short ton or a metric ton?

--

Rick

[Steve Wilson]

Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> Swamp coolers also make for a nicer climate in the house. I easily get
> headaches when a regular A/C is running. Not so with the swamp cooler.

Maybe mold in the A/C. Try getting an inexpensive Air Quality Monitor
like the Nikken:

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=nikken+air+quality+monitor

They work well and are very good for tracking down sources of
contamination that can cause headaches and other health problems.

I just got mine and it immediately showed two old VME crates that had
serious mold problems from lint stuck in the air channels. It will take a
high pressure air compressor to blow them out. The Nikken will tell when
all the lint is gone.

It will also help find mold spores from lint in old boatanchors like the
HP 8566 or Tek 2467. These can cause severe headaches whenever you turn
them on and the fans start blowing spores all over the lab.

It will also tell you when the condensor in the house fridge has started
to accumulate lint that grows mold and can cause headaches when it is
running. Another big source is the clothes dryer in the basement. This
can be a real pain to keep clean.

For the price, you can't find a better deal anywhere. They are very
inexpensive and can save a lot of grief and wasted time and effort.

The Nikken compares favorably with the Dylos, but it is portable and much
easier to use. If you can keep the display down to the first two blue
bars you should be fine. The VME crates were easy to find. They lit up
all the bars.

Oddly enough, I am going to have to take my Nikken apart and clean it.
The fan stinks when the unit is first turned on. It doesn't show in the
display since the fan is on the exit and sucks the air past the sensor
then blows it out the bottom. But it smells like burned pcb. Should be
easy to clean.

[dagmarg...@yahoo.com]

On Tuesday, July 8, 2014 8:36:44 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
> Don Y wrote:
> > On 7/8/2014 3:47 PM, Joerg wrote:

> >> makolber wrote:
> >>> what failed in the motor(s)?
> >>
> >> The first one spewed an impressive plume of smoke into the house. The
> >> second one started a bearing screech. I am nursing it along with copious
> >> amounts of Triflow and other oil, hoping it'll hang on until the new
> >> motor gets here.
> >
> > Pull the old motor apart when you've installed the replacement.
> > If it's just a *bushing*, you're probably screwed. But, if
> > there is a genuine bearing on each end of the shaft, you can
> > usually replace them (arbor press comes in handy).
> >
> AFAIR it's just a cheap bushing. Hence the oiling points where you are
> supposed to add oil after two years. IME, once a bushing motor has had a
> screeching episode it's toast. I will keep the old one stored in the
> garage in case motor #3 suffers a spectacular failure which it probably
> will in the not too distant future.

If it's just a bushing and you like the rest of the unit, why not
rebuild the motor? Local shops do that here for a song.

Sintered bronze bushings are actually very decent, quiet, handle large
loads, and are sold in local hardware stores por nada. While you're at
it you could over-size the replacements.

One caveat is you can't smear the pores closed during machining, which,
sadly, almost everyone does. That wrecks the lubrication--betcha that's
what happened to yours.

Yeah, it's a pain to have to do, but, well, you have to, and it's less of a
pain than constantly looking for and vetting new ones with new problems.


Cheers,
James Arthur

[Joerg]

dagmarg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 8, 2014 8:36:44 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
>> Don Y wrote:
>>> On 7/8/2014 3:47 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>>> makolber wrote:
>>>>> what failed in the motor(s)?
>>>> The first one spewed an impressive plume of smoke into the house. The
>>>> second one started a bearing screech. I am nursing it along with copious
>>>> amounts of Triflow and other oil, hoping it'll hang on until the new
>>>> motor gets here.
>>> Pull the old motor apart when you've installed the replacement.
>>> If it's just a *bushing*, you're probably screwed. But, if
>>> there is a genuine bearing on each end of the shaft, you can
>>> usually replace them (arbor press comes in handy).
>>>
>> AFAIR it's just a cheap bushing. Hence the oiling points where you are
>> supposed to add oil after two years. IME, once a bushing motor has had a
>> screeching episode it's toast. I will keep the old one stored in the
>> garage in case motor #3 suffers a spectacular failure which it probably
>> will in the not too distant future.
>
> If it's just a bushing and you like the rest of the unit, why not
> rebuild the motor? Local shops do that here for a song.
>
> Sintered bronze bushings are actually very decent, quiet, handle large
> loads, and are sold in local hardware stores por nada. While you're at
> it you could over-size the replacements.
>

Not out here anymore. Heck, they don't even have the motors, must be
ordered via mail.

> One caveat is you can't smear the pores closed during machining, which,
> sadly, almost everyone does. That wrecks the lubrication--betcha that's
> what happened to yours.
>
> Yeah, it's a pain to have to do, but, well, you have to, and it's less of a
> pain than constantly looking for and vetting new ones with new problems.
>

There is only one kind of motor that fits, from one manufacturer. And
that's IMO low-quality stuff, not just in the bearings.

[Joerg]

Swamp coolers save a lot of energy in pretty much all of Arizona, in New
Mexico, Utah, Northern California and lots of other large areas.

> BTW, that energy savings, is that a long ton, a short ton or a metric ton?
>

A western ton :-)

[Joerg]

Steve Wilson wrote:
> Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Swamp coolers also make for a nicer climate in the house. I easily get
>> headaches when a regular A/C is running. Not so with the swamp cooler.
>
> Maybe mold in the A/C. Try getting an inexpensive Air Quality Monitor
> like the Nikken:
>
> http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=nikken+air+quality+monitor
>
> They work well and are very good for tracking down sources of
> contamination that can cause headaches and other health problems.
>

It happens everywhere, including brand-new corporate offices. Sloshing
partially used-up "air" around a building is simply not a very good idea
yet that's what traditional A/C does. Same for central heat, which is
why I feel much better since we installed wood and pellet stoves.

> I just got mine and it immediately showed two old VME crates that had
> serious mold problems from lint stuck in the air channels. It will take a
> high pressure air compressor to blow them out. The Nikken will tell when
> all the lint is gone.
>
> It will also help find mold spores from lint in old boatanchors like the
> HP 8566 or Tek 2467. These can cause severe headaches whenever you turn
> them on and the fans start blowing spores all over the lab.
>

Never had any problems like that. The old HP3577 blows right in my face
all day long sometimes and it won't bother me.

> It will also tell you when the condensor in the house fridge has started
> to accumulate lint that grows mold and can cause headaches when it is
> running. Another big source is the clothes dryer in the basement. This
> can be a real pain to keep clean.
>

When you have large shedding dogs like we do that stuff is on a rigid
maintenance schedule. Evey month or so the fridge comes out of its hole
and gets cleaned. My wife has a checklist for this.

> For the price, you can't find a better deal anywhere. They are very
> inexpensive and can save a lot of grief and wasted time and effort.
>
> The Nikken compares favorably with the Dylos, but it is portable and much
> easier to use. If you can keep the display down to the first two blue
> bars you should be fine. The VME crates were easy to find. They lit up
> all the bars.
>
> Oddly enough, I am going to have to take my Nikken apart and clean it.
> The fan stinks when the unit is first turned on. It doesn't show in the
> display since the fan is on the exit and sucks the air past the sensor
> then blows it out the bottom. But it smells like burned pcb. Should be
> easy to clean.

It is a good deal. But I like to keep the number of toys to a minimum
and regarding the inhouse climate I have found out what works well for
us (swamp cooler and wood heating). It was pretty extreme at my last
employer before I became self-employed. By around 7pm I had typically
worked up a good headache on some days. When I jumped into the car and
rolled down the windows that always cleared up by the time I hit a grade
into the hills where we live.

[Don Y]

On 7/9/2014 10:03 AM, Joerg wrote:
> My solution would have PID controlled VF-driven motors for the pump and
> the big fan to adjust the climate inside the house without making any
> sudden loud noises. It would also be self-cleaing by regularly stirring
> and dumping the pan contents automatically. It would sense when the
> temp-delta is too low and also when to go into fan-only mode. Stuff that
> this industry is never going to figure out on their own.

I think most of these ideas fall into the "80% effort for 20% return"
category (instead of the more desirable "20% effort, 80% return").
Things like "self-cleaning" are already available OTS. Other worthwhile
additions are trivial to implement (e.g., a sacrificial anode in the
pan).

When I wrote the HVAC controller, here, I watched how the cooler and
ACbrrr operated (simply by logging indoor/outdoor/operating conditions).
My goal being *smart* control not just control for the sake of control.

E.g., two speeds is all you need for a cooler -- LOW when the house
can easily be *maintained* at a desired "comfort setting" and HIGH
when you need to move *to* a comfort setting (e.g., if house has been
unoccupied all day; silly to keep it wet and sticky!). The same is
probably true of the furnace (though ours only operates at a single
speed as it quickly brings the house to temperature)

[Of course, in our case, the cooler is on the roof so we only really
hear the air flow through the ducts, not the motor noise, etc.]

The biggest win comes from being able to decide *when* to use the
cooler, when to STOP using it, and when to use the ACbrrrr.

At the very least, you need local environmental data to evaluate the
effectivity of each at achieving your desired comfort setting. E.g.,
what's the local wet and dry bulb temperatures. Windspeed also plays
a role as it can force air through the pads in "gusts" effectively
allowing hotter, drier air into the system than intended. You also
need to be able to monitor conditions *inside* to ensure the house
itself isn't becoming saturated (e.g., by insufficient exhaust
ventilation)

But, knowing current conditions isn't enough. You also have to
have a reasonable idea as to how they are likely to DEVELOP in the
next few hours. This requires longer term memory and prediction
than a simple "current state" analysis.

E.g., if it is 95 degrees at 10AM in July, chances are it will get
hotter *and* wetter as the day progresses. Running the cooler (or,
continuing to run the cooler) will eventually bring you to a point
where you are *heating* the interior of the house AND making it
wetter. Best bet is to stop the cooler. It may or may not make
sense to start the ACbrrr in its place.

OTOH, if it is 95 degrees at 2PM in June, it's likely not going to
get much hotter *and* it will tend to stay "dry" so running the
cooler is a great option!

It's also silly to aggressively cool if you know the exterior
temperature WILL fall, predictably.

Effective use of the dual-cooling, here, required a fair bit of
"expert knowledge" regarding local conditions. Our first few
"summers" were uncomfortable experiments! :(

Also, there are seasons where the cooler makes allergies absolutely
unbearable! (this is the argument SWMBO initially used in favor
of year round ACbrrr). Those vary based on the individual and the
local flora.

The practical problem is that of closing the outside vents when
the cooler is replaced by the ACbrrr. You don't want to be pushing
conditioned air out the "windows"!

[If SWMBO ever consents to returning to the cooler, I'll motorize
several of the skylights and use them as vents instead of the
regular "windows". I've got some really neat linear actuators set
aside for just that purpose!]

It would also be nice to be able to run the cooler motor *backwards*;
as a giant exhaust fan. I've lived in other locations where running
such a "whole house" exhaust fan for 15 minutes on returning home
after work would quickly bring the house to a comfortable temperature.
Likewise, running it at night to draw in cooler night air would
take a load off the rest of the cooling system.

[Steve Wilson]

Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> Steve Wilson wrote:
>> It will also help find mold spores from lint in old boatanchors like
>> the HP 8566 or Tek 2467. These can cause severe headaches whenever
>> you turn them on and the fans start blowing spores all over the lab.

> Never had any problems like that. The old HP3577 blows right in my
> face all day long sometimes and it won't bother me.

Depends on who used it before you got it. Some labs are very dirty. I
could not stand to turn on the 8566 without getting a terrible headache.
It took a lot of cleaning with a high pressure air hose to blow out the
lint.

It's a threshold thing. When you are young and have a vigorous immune
system, it can handle some pretty severe contamination without you
noticing.

As you grow older, your immune system becomes less effective and has a
more difficult time keeping up with contamination. As soon as the
concentration becomes greater than your system can handle, you start
noticing problems like headaches, muscle and joint aches, or a sick
feeling in the stomach. It comes and goes as the concentration changes.

This can lead to vague complaints of not feeling up to par, and numerous
doctor visits that largely lead nowhere. Most doctors have no clue about
mold and will try to give all kinds of unhelpful suggestions.

Obviously you are in good health and I hope it stays that way. But for
others who have developed a sensitivity to air quality, this can be a
very effective tool to help track down and solve problems.

[Don Y]

On 7/9/2014 9:17 AM, Joerg wrote:
>> I always thought they were crude devices.
>
> Yeah, but they sure work and save a ton of energy. Of course, you get
> zero tax incentive for installing those because government bureaucrats
> cannot understand that saving 80-90% of the power versus the big A/C is
> more than saving 15% by installing a higher SEER A/C (for which they
> give a fat tax write-off).

Unfortunately, they use a lot of water -- about 50 gallons a day.
(If you have a self-cleaning model -- or, worse, the sort with a
constant "bleed" -- that number climbs to 150-ish!). For places
with long cooling seasons (like here! :> ), that can be a
significant portion of your water consumption (25%).

Depending on the cost of your water (and sewer charges which are
related to water consumption, even if the consumed water NEVER goes
down the sewer!), that can add up quickly. (Recall the cooler also
uses a fair bit of electricity to spin that large squirrel cage...
which it tends to do at a high duty cycle!)

> Swamp coolers also make for a nicer climate in the house. I easily get
> headaches when a regular A/C is running. Not so with the swamp cooler.

+42 (though any headaches *I* get are from allergens brought *into*
the house by the cooler). The other unfortunate aspect of coolers
is they can easily lead to an EXTREMELY humid house if insufficient
exhaust ventilation. Doors swell, towels never feel dry, etc.
(and don't even think of eating popcorn or potato chips! :> )

[Joerg]

Don Y wrote:
> On 7/9/2014 10:03 AM, Joerg wrote:
>> My solution would have PID controlled VF-driven motors for the pump and
>> the big fan to adjust the climate inside the house without making any
>> sudden loud noises. It would also be self-cleaing by regularly stirring
>> and dumping the pan contents automatically. It would sense when the
>> temp-delta is too low and also when to go into fan-only mode. Stuff that
>> this industry is never going to figure out on their own.
>
> I think most of these ideas fall into the "80% effort for 20% return"
> category (instead of the more desirable "20% effort, 80% return").

> Things like "self-cleaning" are already available OTS. ...


No really. Very expensive large units have a dump pump, that's it. No
stirring or anything. I have seen an impressive collection of gunk in
some coolers where people never paid attention.


> ... Other worthwhile

> additions are trivial to implement (e.g., a sacrificial anode in the
> pan).
>
> When I wrote the HVAC controller, here, I watched how the cooler and
> ACbrrr operated (simply by logging indoor/outdoor/operating conditions).
> My goal being *smart* control not just control for the sake of control.
>
> E.g., two speeds is all you need for a cooler -- LOW when the house
> can easily be *maintained* at a desired "comfort setting" and HIGH
> when you need to move *to* a comfort setting (e.g., if house has been

> unoccupied all day; silly to keep it wet and sticky!). ...


That's why there's Updux :-)


> ... The same is

> probably true of the furnace (though ours only operates at a single
> speed as it quickly brings the house to temperature)
>
> [Of course, in our case, the cooler is on the roof so we only really
> hear the air flow through the ducts, not the motor noise, etc.]
>

VF drive has big advantages. Aside from no sudden air inrush it is also
better for the material. A motor that runs slow and cool most of the
time will live longer than one that runs on-off full bore. Efficiency
can also improve because many coolers suck the pads too dry on hot or
windy days. When it runs 70% all day instead of 100% intermittently that
problem can be avoided.

> The biggest win comes from being able to decide *when* to use the
> cooler, when to STOP using it, and when to use the ACbrrrr.
>
> At the very least, you need local environmental data to evaluate the
> effectivity of each at achieving your desired comfort setting. E.g.,
> what's the local wet and dry bulb temperatures.

Why? It is very easy to sense intake and output temperatures. We are
sensing only output which I find enough. If the air coming out is less
than 74F it's fine, if it's much higher we turn it off.


> ... Windspeed also plays

> a role as it can force air through the pads in "gusts" effectively
> allowing hotter, drier air into the system than intended. You also
> need to be able to monitor conditions *inside* to ensure the house
> itself isn't becoming saturated (e.g., by insufficient exhaust
> ventilation)
>

That's pretty easy. We make sure the ventilation matches the cooler
setting (high/low). One can also measure the pressure differential.

> But, knowing current conditions isn't enough. You also have to
> have a reasonable idea as to how they are likely to DEVELOP in the
> next few hours. This requires longer term memory and prediction
> than a simple "current state" analysis.
>
> E.g., if it is 95 degrees at 10AM in July, chances are it will get
> hotter *and* wetter as the day progresses. Running the cooler (or,
> continuing to run the cooler) will eventually bring you to a point
> where you are *heating* the interior of the house AND making it
> wetter. Best bet is to stop the cooler. It may or may not make
> sense to start the ACbrrr in its place.
>

All you need to measure for that is output temperature. 74F is our
limit, works well.

> OTOH, if it is 95 degrees at 2PM in June, it's likely not going to
> get much hotter *and* it will tend to stay "dry" so running the
> cooler is a great option!
>
> It's also silly to aggressively cool if you know the exterior
> temperature WILL fall, predictably.
>
> Effective use of the dual-cooling, here, required a fair bit of
> "expert knowledge" regarding local conditions. Our first few
> "summers" were uncomfortable experiments! :(
>

Out here it's easy. You turn on the cooler and occasionally peek out the
office window. If clouds roll in it may make sense to turn it off.
Otherwise we just keep it running and when it gets to cold in the
evening we turn it off earlier than usual.

> Also, there are seasons where the cooler makes allergies absolutely
> unbearable! (this is the argument SWMBO initially used in favor
> of year round ACbrrr). Those vary based on the individual and the
> local flora.
>
> The practical problem is that of closing the outside vents when
> the cooler is replaced by the ACbrrr. You don't want to be pushing
> conditioned air out the "windows"!
>
> [If SWMBO ever consents to returning to the cooler, I'll motorize
> several of the skylights and use them as vents instead of the
> regular "windows". I've got some really neat linear actuators set
> aside for just that purpose!]
>

Right on! That's the real spirit of home automation, it's useful. Also,
you might want to consider Updux:

https://www.dialmfg.com/UpDux.html

They push themselves open when the cooler begins to pressurize the house
and fall back to the closed position if off. You also need to heed fire
codes that may require automatic shutting in a fire.

> It would also be nice to be able to run the cooler motor *backwards*;
> as a giant exhaust fan. I've lived in other locations where running
> such a "whole house" exhaust fan for 15 minutes on returning home
> after work would quickly bring the house to a comfortable temperature.
> Likewise, running it at night to draw in cooler night air would
> take a load off the rest of the cooling system.

I do not like wholehouse fans. Friends had one installed and I told them
that this will increase their allergies and suck a tremendous amount of
dust and pollen into the house. They didn't believe me. A few years,
thousands of sneezes and lots of vacuum bags later ... it's gone.

This is one of the key advantages of a swamp cooler: Cleaner air. When
we had some close wildfires last year I was surprised how bad the small
was outside the house and inside it was crispy clean. A few days later
the smell became noticeable inside. Opened the cooler and saw that it
had deposited an impressive pile of soot and ash in the middle of the
pan and it began to reach the pump intake. Dumped it -> Crispy clean air
again. So I did that every 2-3 days until the fires were largely
contained. All the while the other neighbors were coughing inside their
homes.

[Joerg]

Steve Wilson wrote:
> Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Steve Wilson wrote:
>>> It will also help find mold spores from lint in old boatanchors like
>>> the HP 8566 or Tek 2467. These can cause severe headaches whenever
>>> you turn them on and the fans start blowing spores all over the lab.
>
>> Never had any problems like that. The old HP3577 blows right in my
>> face all day long sometimes and it won't bother me.
>
> Depends on who used it before you got it. Some labs are very dirty. I
> could not stand to turn on the 8566 without getting a terrible headache.
> It took a lot of cleaning with a high pressure air hose to blow out the
> lint.
>

It can be really bad if the guys using it were heavy smokers. Yech.
Nothing against a good cigar or something but not in the lab.

> It's a threshold thing. When you are young and have a vigorous immune
> system, it can handle some pretty severe contamination without you
> noticing.
>
> As you grow older, your immune system becomes less effective and has a
> more difficult time keeping up with contamination. As soon as the
> concentration becomes greater than your system can handle, you start
> noticing problems like headaches, muscle and joint aches, or a sick
> feeling in the stomach. It comes and goes as the concentration changes.
>
> This can lead to vague complaints of not feeling up to par, and numerous
> doctor visits that largely lead nowhere. Most doctors have no clue about
> mold and will try to give all kinds of unhelpful suggestions.
>
> Obviously you are in good health and I hope it stays that way. But for
> others who have developed a sensitivity to air quality, this can be a
> very effective tool to help track down and solve problems.

True. But even more important is to harden yourself. With the advent of
network simulation, CAD and all that I found myself becoming too
sedentary in the office/lab. So, I invested in a good mountain bike.
Best investment I made in years, makes one feel many years younger.
Except after a crash but so far I only had two and all that got bruised
was my ego.

[Joerg]

Don Y wrote:
> On 7/9/2014 9:17 AM, Joerg wrote:
>>> I always thought they were crude devices.
>>
>> Yeah, but they sure work and save a ton of energy. Of course, you get
>> zero tax incentive for installing those because government bureaucrats
>> cannot understand that saving 80-90% of the power versus the big A/C is
>> more than saving 15% by installing a higher SEER A/C (for which they
>> give a fat tax write-off).
>
> Unfortunately, they use a lot of water -- about 50 gallons a day.
> (If you have a self-cleaning model -- or, worse, the sort with a
> constant "bleed" -- that number climbs to 150-ish!). For places
> with long cooling seasons (like here! :> ), that can be a
> significant portion of your water consumption (25%).
>

Our current cooler uses a lot less but it is also a bit too small.
Anyhow, it didn't make a dent in the water bill versus the years before
installation. We tend to watch such trends in order to be
environmentally conscious and detect when there may be a slow leak
somewhere.

> Depending on the cost of your water (and sewer charges which are
> related to water consumption, even if the consumed water NEVER goes
> down the sewer!), that can add up quickly. (Recall the cooler also
> uses a fair bit of electricity to spin that large squirrel cage...
> which it tends to do at a high duty cycle!)
>

That's why I'd really love a VF drive. That allows you to fine tune it
to the air volume pushed in per minute that the house really needs.

>> Swamp coolers also make for a nicer climate in the house. I easily get
>> headaches when a regular A/C is running. Not so with the swamp cooler.
>
> +42 (though any headaches *I* get are from allergens brought *into*
> the house by the cooler).

Tried double-padding?


> ... The other unfortunate aspect of coolers

> is they can easily lead to an EXTREMELY humid house if insufficient
> exhaust ventilation. Doors swell, towels never feel dry, etc.
> (and don't even think of eating popcorn or potato chips! :> )

We never eat that anyhow. One must be diligent about ventilation and
avoid creating a "head" with the cooler. That would be easy to automate
though. Humidity does go up, of course, and when the cooler runs we must
use coasters for beer or chilled drinks because of condensation on the
outside of the glass.

[amdx]

On 7/9/2014 11:17 AM, Joerg wrote:

>
> Swamp coolers also make for a nicer climate in the house. I easily get
> headaches when a regular A/C is running. Not so with the swamp cooler.
>

I know it is dependent on the climate you are in, but I like it when
it is hot enough outside to make my air conditioner run enough to bring
the humidity into the mid 40s percentile and the inside temp is about
78*. If the humidity is 50% it needs to be 76* to be comfortable.
But I'm in Northern Florida aka the Redneck Riviera.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Redneck%20Riviera

Mikek



---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
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[Joerg]

amdx wrote:
> On 7/9/2014 11:17 AM, Joerg wrote:
>
>>
>> Swamp coolers also make for a nicer climate in the house. I easily get
>> headaches when a regular A/C is running. Not so with the swamp cooler.
>>
>
> I know it is dependent on the climate you are in, but I like it when
> it is hot enough outside to make my air conditioner run enough to bring
> the humidity into the mid 40s percentile and the inside temp is about
> 78*. If the humidity is 50% it needs to be 76* to be comfortable.

Naaah, that's for wimps. I am sitting here right now in around 50%
humidity and 86F office temps. Feels alright. Yesterday I ran a lot of
SPICE sims and that drove it up to over 90F. Still ok with me. But I may
be unusual, when it's 100F or more I am the only one out there on the
local mountain bike trails.

> But I'm in Northern Florida aka the Redneck Riviera.
> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Redneck%20Riviera
>

Where the tattoo parlors are? :-)

[Charles Edmondson]

In article <9ador99k412oqnioo...@4ax.com>, To-Email-Use-
The-Enve...@On-My-Web-Site.com says...
>
> On Tue, 08 Jul 2014 11:10:52 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>

> wrote:
>
> >Folks,
> >
> >The fan motor in our swamp cooler died for the 2nd time, this time it
> >lasted only one year or about 1500 hours. Pathetic. The cooler
> >manufacturer (Essick Air) was unapologetic in both cases, zero courtesy
> >and essentially told in a rather unfriendly way "Too bad, no warranty,
> >you must pay".
> >
> >I'd like to get a bigger unit but of course I am now leery of this
> >manufacturer (Champion/Essick). I no longer believe their quality is up
> >to par. Is there any other manufacturer that makes something like in the
> >link below and isn't outrageously expensive?
> >
> >http://www.homedepot.com/p/Champion-Cooler-4700-CFM-2-Speed-Window-Evaporative-Cooler-for-1600-sq-ft-with-Motor-WC50/202530245#specifications
> >
> >I know there's Mastercool but their units are much deeper. Since this
> >has to be placed on a deck and we have to at least be able to squeeze by
> >I can't go much deeper than 35" wall-breakthrough to end of unit.
>

> Why don't you replace the motor with a better-quality/higher-HP-rated
> unit? Sounds possibly like a motor not rated for the load... or do
> you run it fan-only sometimes ?>:-}
>
> ...Jim Thompson

Hi Jeorg,
I would go with Jim on this one. Take a look at your local hardware
store, and see if they have replacement motors (NOT directly from the
manufacturer!) I know evaporative cooler makers have recently started
disappearing. When I wanted another portable unit a month ago, I ended
up spending a lot more for a tricked out unit with a microcontroller on
it, much more than I needed...

Charlie

[Joerg]

Forget it. The concept of the good old hardware store has gone out the
window a long time ago. You can buy a bottle of Drano there or deck
stain. But when I asked for this very motor at two local Home Depots
they could not even find it, let alone order it. And I bought the cooler
there at Home Depot!

I just left a negative review about this manufacturer and this product
on their site under the tab of the cooler we bought. They rejected it.
Time to write to their CEO again I guess. Last time I did that it
triggered a mid-size earthquake and shortly thereafter the manufacturer
disappeared from their offerings.


> ... I know evaporative cooler makers have recently started
> disappearing. ...


With such shoddy quality that is no wonder. People like you and I know
how to fix that but for a regular customer the unit is shot. It is quite
tough to get the blower assembly out of there and a new one wired in.
And then get it all balanced.


> ... When I wanted another portable unit a month ago, I ended

> up spending a lot more for a tricked out unit with a microcontroller on
> it, much more than I needed...
>

I prefer not to have any electronics in there unless I built them
myself. My experience with electronics designed by appliance
manufacturers has been as bad as with automotive. Which is why I
purposely bought a car that had the least amount of electronics in
mission-critical areas.

[haitic...@gmail.com]

obvious, but try to have a fan blow directly onto you.
In Haiti, we had tent hospitals with guards toting shotguns
facing out. I measured the temperature in the "OR," and it was
112 F - maybe higher when you count the thermal radiation from the tent
surface. The docs would occasionally faint, and we'd drag them out and do a
saline drip feed.
They have to put up with outrageous temperatures, as do the Indians in Kerala,
etc.
I've met people from Belize who say they 'like' to be at 90 F. You can play
that game with yourself.
In the winter, I work in my shop at 55-60. I much prefer the cold.

[rickman]

Where do you get your water? My understanding is that water is a
limiting resource in most of the areas you mention. Locations where
water is plentiful tend to have a lot of it in the air so swamp coolers
won't work.

--

Rick

[rickman]

On 7/9/2014 2:46 PM, Joerg wrote:
> Steve Wilson wrote:
>> Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> Swamp coolers also make for a nicer climate in the house. I easily get
>>> headaches when a regular A/C is running. Not so with the swamp cooler.
>>
>> Maybe mold in the A/C. Try getting an inexpensive Air Quality Monitor
>> like the Nikken:
>>
>> http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=nikken+air+quality+monitor
>>
>> They work well and are very good for tracking down sources of
>> contamination that can cause headaches and other health problems.
>>
>
> It happens everywhere, including brand-new corporate offices. Sloshing
> partially used-up "air" around a building is simply not a very good idea
> yet that's what traditional A/C does. Same for central heat, which is
> why I feel much better since we installed wood and pellet stoves.

Sometimes your poor thinking shines brightly. "Sloshing around" the air
by an AC is no different from a ceiling fan blowing. If you have
systems that bring in fresh air which help to alleviate your symptoms
then the problem is likely a house issue, not an AC issue.

>> I just got mine and it immediately showed two old VME crates that had
>> serious mold problems from lint stuck in the air channels. It will take a
>> high pressure air compressor to blow them out. The Nikken will tell when
>> all the lint is gone.
>>
>> It will also help find mold spores from lint in old boatanchors like the
>> HP 8566 or Tek 2467. These can cause severe headaches whenever you turn
>> them on and the fans start blowing spores all over the lab.
>>
>
> Never had any problems like that. The old HP3577 blows right in my face
> all day long sometimes and it won't bother me.

More poor logic... if your one piece of old equipment has no problem,
then clearly no piece of old equipment can have a problem.

> It is a good deal. But I like to keep the number of toys to a minimum
> and regarding the inhouse climate I have found out what works well for
> us (swamp cooler and wood heating). It was pretty extreme at my last
> employer before I became self-employed. By around 7pm I had typically
> worked up a good headache on some days. When I jumped into the car and
> rolled down the windows that always cleared up by the time I hit a grade
> into the hills where we live.

Did you ever determine what you are sensitive to? Offices have
regulations on how much fresh air is brought in but systems can (and do)
malfunction. You can find the real cause of your problems or you can
just blame it on central heat/AC and never figure it out.

--

Rick

[Don Y]

On 7/9/2014 12:56 PM, Joerg wrote:
> Don Y wrote:
>> On 7/9/2014 10:03 AM, Joerg wrote:
>>> My solution would have PID controlled VF-driven motors for the pump and
>>> the big fan to adjust the climate inside the house without making any
>>> sudden loud noises. It would also be self-cleaing by regularly stirring
>>> and dumping the pan contents automatically. It would sense when the
>>> temp-delta is too low and also when to go into fan-only mode. Stuff that
>>> this industry is never going to figure out on their own.
>>
>> I think most of these ideas fall into the "80% effort for 20% return"
>> category (instead of the more desirable "20% effort, 80% return").
>> Things like "self-cleaning" are already available OTS. ...
>
> No really. Very expensive large units have a dump pump, that's it. No
> stirring or anything. I have seen an impressive collection of gunk in
> some coolers where people never paid attention.

If you aren't servicing your cooler twice a year (before and after
cooler season), chances are, you've got bigger problems!

Prior to starting cooler season, we would:
- uncover the cooler
- reinstall the belt on the fan motor
- oil the bushings
- verify the quality of the pad (in case we were going to replace it
at the end of last cooling season and "forgot")
- reinstall overflow tube
- turn on water supply
- verify water level control valve (float) operating
- verify pan never OVERfills
- turn on circuit breaker
- verify fan, water, and purge pumps operating
- verify "dry side" of cooler free of any water infiltration
- verify no leaks from bottom of pan
- verify cooler pan remains level (no water leaking out side of pan)
- remove the manual "gate" and reinstall barometric damper

End of cooling season:
- inspect exterior/underside for signs of leaks (calcifications)
- remove overflow tube (ensures ALL water drains from pan)
- remove pad to expose shelf beneath
- wash down pad and shelf (calcification and other salts)
- inspect pad, replace if necessary (so ready for next season)
- flush dirt and debris from pan (mainly *sand*!)
- ensure drained pan is free of debris
- drain water line
- turn off water supply
- turn off circuit breaker
- remove belt from motor (so it isn't under tension all winter)
- cover cooler

[I may have forgotten a few details as we are not using the cooler
anymore]

By contrast, the ACbrrr just sees "turn circuit breaker on" and
"turn circuit off" as it's regular maintenance activities.

[Cooler and ACbrrr are each more than a decade old. Repairs to date
have included replacing cap on condenser fan motor ($8); replacing
cooler pad twice (2x$100).]

>> ... Other worthwhile
>> additions are trivial to implement (e.g., a sacrificial anode in the
>> pan).
>>
>> When I wrote the HVAC controller, here, I watched how the cooler and
>> ACbrrr operated (simply by logging indoor/outdoor/operating conditions).
>> My goal being *smart* control not just control for the sake of control.
>>
>> E.g., two speeds is all you need for a cooler -- LOW when the house
>> can easily be *maintained* at a desired "comfort setting" and HIGH
>> when you need to move *to* a comfort setting (e.g., if house has been
>> unoccupied all day; silly to keep it wet and sticky!). ...
>
> That's why there's Updux :-)

And, if you don't have an attic, that's why you have a linear actuator
on skylights! :>

>> ... The same is
>> probably true of the furnace (though ours only operates at a single
>> speed as it quickly brings the house to temperature)
>>
>> [Of course, in our case, the cooler is on the roof so we only really
>> hear the air flow through the ducts, not the motor noise, etc.]
>
> VF drive has big advantages. Aside from no sudden air inrush it is also
> better for the material. A motor that runs slow and cool most of the
> time will live longer than one that runs on-off full bore. Efficiency
> can also improve because many coolers suck the pads too dry on hot or
> windy days. When it runs 70% all day instead of 100% intermittently that
> problem can be avoided.

We found that our cooler ran on low most of the day. If it shifted
to HIGH, we took that as a sign that outdoor conditions were too
much for the cooler to keep up. You *want* the fan to run as it
keeps positive pressure inside the house without which, the hot/dry
air from outside will blow in through all the open windows!

[A room with a closed window doesn't see the effect of the cooler]

>> The biggest win comes from being able to decide *when* to use the
>> cooler, when to STOP using it, and when to use the ACbrrrr.
>>
>> At the very least, you need local environmental data to evaluate the
>> effectivity of each at achieving your desired comfort setting. E.g.,
>> what's the local wet and dry bulb temperatures.
>
> Why? It is very easy to sense intake and output temperatures. We are
> sensing only output which I find enough. If the air coming out is less
> than 74F it's fine, if it's much higher we turn it off.

When it's 115 outside, your cooler won't be able to achieve a
reasonable "comfort setting"! Even if it can drive the temperature
down 30 degrees, the resulting air is *soup* -- 85 and humid sucks!

If you turn off the cooler when it is no longer comfortable, then
you are left sitting in a house with windows closed (else the interior
temperature will quickly rise to the outdoor temperature) hoping it
doesn't get *much* hotter (and, it is already "humid", inside).

Instead, we (in the past) would button up the house, turn off the cooler
and turn on the ACbrrr. But, now it has to work to remove all that
moisture from the house. AND, *someone* had to:
- notice this was necessary
- close all the windows/vents
- actually switch the cooler off and ACbrrr on
[The first and third are easy to do with automation. The second is
a problem in most homes, here.]

A better solution is to *know* this is likely to happen and avoid
the need to change cooling mechanisms mid-day. E.g., we wouldn't
even bother to turn the cooler on once Monsoon started. It was a
*known* that it would not be able to keep the house comfortable
in the high temps and outdoor humidity that we *expected* each day.

So, switch to all AC cooling until Monsoon has passed and drier
days return. Then, switch back to the cooler for the balance of
the cooling season (which is over 200 days/year, here).

Unfortunately, Monsoon isn't a homogenous experience. It is not
uncommon for things to "dry out" for extended periods of time
*in* Monsoon. Just looking at temperatures isn't enough to tell
you how you should control *now* or even *today*. That's why
there is a fair bit of "art" to using a dual-cooling system.
Watching weather forecasts, actual conditions developing, etc. and
using "wetware" to decide which appliance to use on any given day.

[you end up playing it safe and using the ACbrrr more often than
not as the cooler->ACbrrr transition is usually an admission that
you screwed up and are now uncomfortable as a result]

>> ... Windspeed also plays
>> a role as it can force air through the pads in "gusts" effectively
>> allowing hotter, drier air into the system than intended. You also
>> need to be able to monitor conditions *inside* to ensure the house
>> itself isn't becoming saturated (e.g., by insufficient exhaust
>> ventilation)
>
> That's pretty easy. We make sure the ventilation matches the cooler
> setting (high/low). One can also measure the pressure differential.

It's not static! Are you going to keep tweaking your VFD every
time a gust of wind comes along blowing hot air *in* through
your open windows?

Rule of thumb (nominal ceiling heights) requires ~4CFM/sq ft of floor
space. I.e., you want to change the air in the house every two minutes.
So, 6000-8000 CFM for a "nominal house".

The cooler's effect relies on open windows in each room -- because
the cooler isn't recirculating air but, rather, EXHAUSTING the
"hot"/stale air *through* those opened windows. I.e., no matter
which direction the wind originates, chances are, you have open
windows/vents facing that direction. Stand by a window and feel
a blast of 100+ air blowing *in* and you really notice it (windows
tend to be located in places where people sit, sleep, work, eat, etc.)

This was one of the advantages of using the skylights/roof windows
for vents as they tend to *only* face one direction (due to roof pitch)
instead of every* direction (like the rest of the windows)

>> But, knowing current conditions isn't enough. You also have to
>> have a reasonable idea as to how they are likely to DEVELOP in the
>> next few hours. This requires longer term memory and prediction
>> than a simple "current state" analysis.
>>
>> E.g., if it is 95 degrees at 10AM in July, chances are it will get
>> hotter *and* wetter as the day progresses. Running the cooler (or,
>> continuing to run the cooler) will eventually bring you to a point
>> where you are *heating* the interior of the house AND making it
>> wetter. Best bet is to stop the cooler. It may or may not make
>> sense to start the ACbrrr in its place.
>
> All you need to measure for that is output temperature. 74F is our
> limit, works well.

And, at that point, you just resign yourself to being uncomfortable?
Or, do you resort to some *other* cooling mechanism (gee, maybe AC)?

Folks here *know* that a cooler simply won't cut it when humidity
rises. If all they have to use is a cooler, then they plan on
being pretty uncomfortable until Monsoon is over.

[Forget using one *during* a rain storm! Even if temps drop to
the 80's from the cooling effect of the rain, there's no way to
get the stickiness out of the house!]

If your "control system" is smart, it knows when these conditions
are likely to exist. E.g., I *plan* on 4 July being the Start of
Sticky (OK, this year our first rain came on the 3rd). When we
ran dual-cooling, I had "service the cooler" as a standing chore
with a 4 July deadline each year. (along with "service the roof")

Currently, I have a small weather station on the roof so I can
watch conditions *here* (which ALWAYS differ from those reported
on the "news" due to microclimates around town). I use this
for instantaneous climate data for the controller (as well as the
irrigation controller -- don't bother to irrigate if it's likely
to rain/has rained!) so it knows whether the cooler "makes sense"
as a cooling option "now".

[I am unhappy with the humidity sensor, though. The constant
sun/heat exposure seems to render them inoperable, quickly.
And, I'm not keen on the expense and maintenance of a chilled
mirror technology!]

Ideally, I would like to track this information year-to-year
(instead of doing so informally in my head) and make those
control decisions "automatically".

>> OTOH, if it is 95 degrees at 2PM in June, it's likely not going to
>> get much hotter *and* it will tend to stay "dry" so running the
>> cooler is a great option!
>>
>> It's also silly to aggressively cool if you know the exterior
>> temperature WILL fall, predictably.
>>
>> Effective use of the dual-cooling, here, required a fair bit of
>> "expert knowledge" regarding local conditions. Our first few
>> "summers" were uncomfortable experiments! :(
>
> Out here it's easy. You turn on the cooler and occasionally peek out the
> office window. If clouds roll in it may make sense to turn it off.
> Otherwise we just keep it running and when it gets to cold in the
> evening we turn it off earlier than usual.

In Summer, it is *usually* 90+ at 11PM. It *may* drop to 80
in the early morning hours. (surprisingly, this feels "cool")

OTOH, in Monsoon, 80 is icky -- midwestern/new england summer icky!

I.e., temperature alone tells a controller nothing. This is why
so many cooler controllers are jokes.

>> Also, there are seasons where the cooler makes allergies absolutely
>> unbearable! (this is the argument SWMBO initially used in favor
>> of year round ACbrrr). Those vary based on the individual and the
>> local flora.
>>
>> The practical problem is that of closing the outside vents when
>> the cooler is replaced by the ACbrrr. You don't want to be pushing
>> conditioned air out the "windows"!
>>
>> [If SWMBO ever consents to returning to the cooler, I'll motorize
>> several of the skylights and use them as vents instead of the
>> regular "windows". I've got some really neat linear actuators set
>> aside for just that purpose!]
>
> Right on! That's the real spirit of home automation, it's useful. Also,
> you might want to consider Updux:
>
> https://www.dialmfg.com/UpDux.html
>
> They push themselves open when the cooler begins to pressurize the house
> and fall back to the closed position if off. You also need to heed fire
> codes that may require automatic shutting in a fire.

That only works if you have an attic to vent into. As I said, the
solution, here, is an operable skylight/vent/roof window that you
can deliberately "open" when needed.

>> It would also be nice to be able to run the cooler motor *backwards*;
>> as a giant exhaust fan. I've lived in other locations where running
>> such a "whole house" exhaust fan for 15 minutes on returning home
>> after work would quickly bring the house to a comfortable temperature.
>> Likewise, running it at night to draw in cooler night air would
>> take a load off the rest of the cooling system.
>
> I do not like wholehouse fans. Friends had one installed and I told them
> that this will increase their allergies and suck a tremendous amount of
> dust and pollen into the house. They didn't believe me. A few years,
> thousands of sneezes and lots of vacuum bags later ... it's gone.
>
> This is one of the key advantages of a swamp cooler: Cleaner air. When
> we had some close wildfires last year I was surprised how bad the small
> was outside the house and inside it was crispy clean. A few days later
> the smell became noticeable inside. Opened the cooler and saw that it
> had deposited an impressive pile of soot and ash in the middle of the
> pan and it began to reach the pump intake. Dumped it -> Crispy clean air
> again. So I did that every 2-3 days until the fires were largely
> contained. All the while the other neighbors were coughing inside their
> homes.

I never had a problem with house fan. OTOH, the air from the
cooler (certain parts of the "allergy season") has been a problem
for both of us. I suspect the problem lies more in the environment
than the mechanism that brings air into the house.

(e.g., our cooler pad is 12 inches thick; the house fan had *no*
filter of any kind -- yet I fared much better with it!)

[Don Y]

Exactly. There have been grumblings about "prohibiting" swamp
coolers on new construction, here, for exactly that reason.
Ditto with "misters" used for outdoor cooling.

However, this raises the bar for homeownership in ways that politicians
shy away from -- even a "cheap" ACbrrr is going to cost considerably
more than a "cheap" (or, *good*!) cooler (in terms of home selling
price).

You can bring electricity into an area a lot easier than you can
bring *water* into that area!

[We're not keen on drinking effluent just to allow folks to keep
"developing", watering lawns/golf courses, spray mist on their
outdoor patios, etc.]

[Don Y]

On 7/9/2014 5:29 PM, Joerg wrote:
> Charles Edmondson wrote:
>> In article<9ador99k412oqnioo...@4ax.com>, To-Email-Use-
>> The-Enve...@On-My-Web-Site.com says...

>>> Why don't you replace the motor with a better-quality/higher-HP-rated
>>> unit? Sounds possibly like a motor not rated for the load... or do
>>> you run it fan-only sometimes ?>:-}
>>

>> I would go with Jim on this one. Take a look at your local hardware
>> store, and see if they have replacement motors (NOT directly from the
>> manufacturer!)
>
> Forget it. The concept of the good old hardware store has gone out the
> window a long time ago. You can buy a bottle of Drano there or deck
> stain. But when I asked for this very motor at two local Home Depots
> they could not even find it, let alone order it. And I bought the cooler
> there at Home Depot!

You must live in the sticks! I can get a motor rebuilt a few miles
from here (and I think *we* live "in the wilderness").

Our old cooler used an odd 220V 1HP design. When the motor crapped
out, I brought it down the street for a rebuild -- and had them
replace the bearings at the same time. It's relatively commonplace,
here (though not for Joe Average consumer who simply replaces items
any time they hiccup). As you end up getting much of your *old*
motor back, it's remarkably affordable.

[Joerg]

haitic...@gmail.com wrote:

[...]

> obvious, but try to have a fan blow directly onto you.
> In Haiti, we had tent hospitals with guards toting shotguns
> facing out. I measured the temperature in the "OR," and it was
> 112 F - maybe higher when you count the thermal radiation from the tent
> surface. The docs would occasionally faint, and we'd drag them out and do a
> saline drip feed.
> They have to put up with outrageous temperatures, as do the Indians in Kerala,
> etc.
> I've met people from Belize who say they 'like' to be at 90 F. You can play
> that game with yourself.
> In the winter, I work in my shop at 55-60. I much prefer the cold.
>

My tolerance range is quite wide. Right now it's 85F here in the office
and I feel perfect. In winter it's usually 63F in the office and I feel
alright. Of course then I don't wear shorts like right now.

[Joerg]

Don Y wrote:
> On 7/9/2014 12:56 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> Don Y wrote:
>>> On 7/9/2014 10:03 AM, Joerg wrote:
>>>> My solution would have PID controlled VF-driven motors for the pump and
>>>> the big fan to adjust the climate inside the house without making any
>>>> sudden loud noises. It would also be self-cleaing by regularly stirring
>>>> and dumping the pan contents automatically. It would sense when the
>>>> temp-delta is too low and also when to go into fan-only mode. Stuff
>>>> that
>>>> this industry is never going to figure out on their own.
>>>
>>> I think most of these ideas fall into the "80% effort for 20% return"
>>> category (instead of the more desirable "20% effort, 80% return").
>>> Things like "self-cleaning" are already available OTS. ...
>>
>> No really. Very expensive large units have a dump pump, that's it. No
>> stirring or anything. I have seen an impressive collection of gunk in
>> some coolers where people never paid attention.
>
> If you aren't servicing your cooler twice a year (before and after
> cooler season), chances are, you've got bigger problems!
>

I service ours about every three weeks. Keeps it nice and clean.

> Prior to starting cooler season, we would:
> - uncover the cooler
> - reinstall the belt on the fan motor
> - oil the bushings
> - verify the quality of the pad (in case we were going to replace it
> at the end of last cooling season and "forgot")
> - reinstall overflow tube
> - turn on water supply
> - verify water level control valve (float) operating
> - verify pan never OVERfills
> - turn on circuit breaker
> - verify fan, water, and purge pumps operating
> - verify "dry side" of cooler free of any water infiltration
> - verify no leaks from bottom of pan
> - verify cooler pan remains level (no water leaking out side of pan)
> - remove the manual "gate" and reinstall barometric damper
>

Similar here, sans the belt because there is none. Sounds more
complicated than it really is once it becomes routine.

> End of cooling season:
> - inspect exterior/underside for signs of leaks (calcifications)
> - remove overflow tube (ensures ALL water drains from pan)
> - remove pad to expose shelf beneath
> - wash down pad and shelf (calcification and other salts)
> - inspect pad, replace if necessary (so ready for next season)
> - flush dirt and debris from pan (mainly *sand*!)
> - ensure drained pan is free of debris
> - drain water line
> - turn off water supply
> - turn off circuit breaker
> - remove belt from motor (so it isn't under tension all winter)
> - cover cooler
>
> [I may have forgotten a few details as we are not using the cooler
> anymore]
>
> By contrast, the ACbrrr just sees "turn circuit breaker on" and
> "turn circuit off" as it's regular maintenance activities.
>

Well, you should clean the condenser. I used to do that once at season
start and then after every major pollen/dust/soot or whatever storm.

> [Cooler and ACbrrr are each more than a decade old. Repairs to date
> have included replacing cap on condenser fan motor ($8); replacing
> cooler pad twice (2x$100).]
>
>>> ... Other worthwhile
>>> additions are trivial to implement (e.g., a sacrificial anode in the
>>> pan).
>>>
>>> When I wrote the HVAC controller, here, I watched how the cooler and
>>> ACbrrr operated (simply by logging indoor/outdoor/operating conditions).
>>> My goal being *smart* control not just control for the sake of control.
>>>
>>> E.g., two speeds is all you need for a cooler -- LOW when the house
>>> can easily be *maintained* at a desired "comfort setting" and HIGH
>>> when you need to move *to* a comfort setting (e.g., if house has been
>>> unoccupied all day; silly to keep it wet and sticky!). ...
>>
>> That's why there's Updux :-)
>
> And, if you don't have an attic, that's why you have a linear actuator
> on skylights! :>
>

The fire marshall might not like that :-)

>>> ... The same is
>>> probably true of the furnace (though ours only operates at a single
>>> speed as it quickly brings the house to temperature)
>>>
>>> [Of course, in our case, the cooler is on the roof so we only really
>>> hear the air flow through the ducts, not the motor noise, etc.]
>>
>> VF drive has big advantages. Aside from no sudden air inrush it is also
>> better for the material. A motor that runs slow and cool most of the
>> time will live longer than one that runs on-off full bore. Efficiency
>> can also improve because many coolers suck the pads too dry on hot or
>> windy days. When it runs 70% all day instead of 100% intermittently that
>> problem can be avoided.
>
> We found that our cooler ran on low most of the day. If it shifted
> to HIGH, we took that as a sign that outdoor conditions were too
> much for the cooler to keep up. You *want* the fan to run as it
> keeps positive pressure inside the house without which, the hot/dry
> air from outside will blow in through all the open windows!
>

Sure, but it doesn't even need "low" to keep up that pressure. Also,
once the cooler is on VF drive that can be thermaostat controlled so it
would automagically speed up when hot air wafts inside.

> [A room with a closed window doesn't see the effect of the cooler]
>
>>> The biggest win comes from being able to decide *when* to use the
>>> cooler, when to STOP using it, and when to use the ACbrrrr.
>>>
>>> At the very least, you need local environmental data to evaluate the
>>> effectivity of each at achieving your desired comfort setting. E.g.,
>>> what's the local wet and dry bulb temperatures.
>>
>> Why? It is very easy to sense intake and output temperatures. We are
>> sensing only output which I find enough. If the air coming out is less
>> than 74F it's fine, if it's much higher we turn it off.
>
> When it's 115 outside, your cooler won't be able to achieve a
> reasonable "comfort setting"! Even if it can drive the temperature
> down 30 degrees, the resulting air is *soup* -- 85 and humid sucks!
>

It doesn't get to 115F much here but it does get to 110F. It worked
nicely through that because the outside humidity is close to zero during
those times.

> If you turn off the cooler when it is no longer comfortable, then
> you are left sitting in a house with windows closed (else the interior
> temperature will quickly rise to the outdoor temperature) hoping it
> doesn't get *much* hotter (and, it is already "humid", inside).
>
> Instead, we (in the past) would button up the house, turn off the cooler
> and turn on the ACbrrr. But, now it has to work to remove all that

> moisture from the house. ...


Yup, and there goes a lot of the energy savings.


> ... AND, *someone* had to:

> - notice this was necessary
> - close all the windows/vents
> - actually switch the cooler off and ACbrrr on
> [The first and third are easy to do with automation. The second is
> a problem in most homes, here.]
>
> A better solution is to *know* this is likely to happen and avoid
> the need to change cooling mechanisms mid-day. E.g., we wouldn't
> even bother to turn the cooler on once Monsoon started. It was a
> *known* that it would not be able to keep the house comfortable
> in the high temps and outdoor humidity that we *expected* each day.
>
> So, switch to all AC cooling until Monsoon has passed and drier
> days return. Then, switch back to the cooler for the balance of
> the cooling season (which is over 200 days/year, here).
>
> Unfortunately, Monsoon isn't a homogenous experience. It is not
> uncommon for things to "dry out" for extended periods of time
> *in* Monsoon. Just looking at temperatures isn't enough to tell
> you how you should control *now* or even *today*. That's why
> there is a fair bit of "art" to using a dual-cooling system.
> Watching weather forecasts, actual conditions developing, etc. and
> using "wetware" to decide which appliance to use on any given day.
>
> [you end up playing it safe and using the ACbrrr more often than
> not as the cooler->ACbrrr transition is usually an admission that
> you screwed up and are now uncomfortable as a result]
>

We pretty much play that by the ear. TV has become unreliable as a
weather forecast since this dreaded switch to digital. But we can gauge
it pretty well by eye.

>>> ... Windspeed also plays
>>> a role as it can force air through the pads in "gusts" effectively
>>> allowing hotter, drier air into the system than intended. You also
>>> need to be able to monitor conditions *inside* to ensure the house
>>> itself isn't becoming saturated (e.g., by insufficient exhaust
>>> ventilation)
>>
>> That's pretty easy. We make sure the ventilation matches the cooler
>> setting (high/low). One can also measure the pressure differential.
>
> It's not static! Are you going to keep tweaking your VFD every
> time a gust of wind comes along blowing hot air *in* through
> your open windows?
>

Nope. Hint: PID-regulator. A really sloooow one. This is where a uC is
called for.

> Rule of thumb (nominal ceiling heights) requires ~4CFM/sq ft of floor
> space. I.e., you want to change the air in the house every two minutes.
> So, 6000-8000 CFM for a "nominal house".
>
> The cooler's effect relies on open windows in each room -- because
> the cooler isn't recirculating air but, rather, EXHAUSTING the
> "hot"/stale air *through* those opened windows. I.e., no matter
> which direction the wind originates, chances are, you have open
> windows/vents facing that direction. Stand by a window and feel
> a blast of 100+ air blowing *in* and you really notice it (windows
> tend to be located in places where people sit, sleep, work, eat, etc.)
>

On hot days, if there is any wind, it comes from the south and we don't
have any windows in that directtion. Well, one slightly in the kitchen
and then we just open another one instead on those days.

> This was one of the advantages of using the skylights/roof windows
> for vents as they tend to *only* face one direction (due to roof pitch)
> instead of every* direction (like the rest of the windows)
>
>>> But, knowing current conditions isn't enough. You also have to
>>> have a reasonable idea as to how they are likely to DEVELOP in the
>>> next few hours. This requires longer term memory and prediction
>>> than a simple "current state" analysis.
>>>
>>> E.g., if it is 95 degrees at 10AM in July, chances are it will get
>>> hotter *and* wetter as the day progresses. Running the cooler (or,
>>> continuing to run the cooler) will eventually bring you to a point
>>> where you are *heating* the interior of the house AND making it
>>> wetter. Best bet is to stop the cooler. It may or may not make
>>> sense to start the ACbrrr in its place.
>>
>> All you need to measure for that is output temperature. 74F is our
>> limit, works well.
>
> And, at that point, you just resign yourself to being uncomfortable?
> Or, do you resort to some *other* cooling mechanism (gee, maybe AC)?
>

That's the output temp from the cooler. Yesterday it was 80F in the
house with the cooler on high. A bit much for my wife but bearable. For
me, just fine.

> Folks here *know* that a cooler simply won't cut it when humidity
> rises. If all they have to use is a cooler, then they plan on
> being pretty uncomfortable until Monsoon is over.
>

We got no Monsoon in Northern California.

> [Forget using one *during* a rain storm!

Wot's a rain storm? :-)


> ... Even if temps drop to

> the 80's from the cooling effect of the rain, there's no way to
> get the stickiness out of the house!]
>
> If your "control system" is smart, it knows when these conditions
> are likely to exist. E.g., I *plan* on 4 July being the Start of
> Sticky (OK, this year our first rain came on the 3rd). When we
> ran dual-cooling, I had "service the cooler" as a standing chore
> with a 4 July deadline each year. (along with "service the roof")
>
> Currently, I have a small weather station on the roof so I can
> watch conditions *here* (which ALWAYS differ from those reported
> on the "news" due to microclimates around town). I use this
> for instantaneous climate data for the controller (as well as the
> irrigation controller -- don't bother to irrigate if it's likely
> to rain/has rained!) so it knows whether the cooler "makes sense"
> as a cooling option "now".
>
> [I am unhappy with the humidity sensor, though. The constant
> sun/heat exposure seems to render them inoperable, quickly.
> And, I'm not keen on the expense and maintenance of a chilled
> mirror technology!]
>

Or ... run a MEMS-size mini cooler which gives you that information :-)

> Ideally, I would like to track this information year-to-year
> (instead of doing so informally in my head) and make those
> control decisions "automatically".
>
>>> OTOH, if it is 95 degrees at 2PM in June, it's likely not going to
>>> get much hotter *and* it will tend to stay "dry" so running the
>>> cooler is a great option!
>>>
>>> It's also silly to aggressively cool if you know the exterior
>>> temperature WILL fall, predictably.
>>>
>>> Effective use of the dual-cooling, here, required a fair bit of
>>> "expert knowledge" regarding local conditions. Our first few
>>> "summers" were uncomfortable experiments! :(
>>
>> Out here it's easy. You turn on the cooler and occasionally peek out the
>> office window. If clouds roll in it may make sense to turn it off.
>> Otherwise we just keep it running and when it gets to cold in the
>> evening we turn it off earlier than usual.
>
> In Summer, it is *usually* 90+ at 11PM. It *may* drop to 80
> in the early morning hours. (surprisingly, this feels "cool")
>
> OTOH, in Monsoon, 80 is icky -- midwestern/new england summer icky!
>
> I.e., temperature alone tells a controller nothing. This is why
> so many cooler controllers are jokes.
>

You need both the cooler input and output temps, plus the house temp.

>>> Also, there are seasons where the cooler makes allergies absolutely
>>> unbearable! (this is the argument SWMBO initially used in favor
>>> of year round ACbrrr). Those vary based on the individual and the
>>> local flora.
>>>
>>> The practical problem is that of closing the outside vents when
>>> the cooler is replaced by the ACbrrr. You don't want to be pushing
>>> conditioned air out the "windows"!
>>>
>>> [If SWMBO ever consents to returning to the cooler, I'll motorize
>>> several of the skylights and use them as vents instead of the
>>> regular "windows". I've got some really neat linear actuators set
>>> aside for just that purpose!]
>>
>> Right on! That's the real spirit of home automation, it's useful. Also,
>> you might want to consider Updux:
>>
>> https://www.dialmfg.com/UpDux.html
>>
>> They push themselves open when the cooler begins to pressurize the house
>> and fall back to the closed position if off. You also need to heed fire
>> codes that may require automatic shutting in a fire.
>
> That only works if you have an attic to vent into. As I said, the
> solution, here, is an operable skylight/vent/roof window that you
> can deliberately "open" when needed.
>

It's also available for skylights, where they automatically open/shut in
case of a fire. A relative was in that business for a while.

That's really strange. Maybe you have a clean air allergy :-)

[Joerg]

Don Y wrote:
> On 7/10/2014 10:06 AM, rickman wrote:
>> On 7/9/2014 2:37 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>> rickman wrote:
>>>> On 7/9/2014 12:17 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>>>> Swamp coolers also make for a nicer climate in the house. I easily get
>>>>> headaches when a regular A/C is running. Not so with the swamp cooler.
>>>>
>>>> I think the problem is that there are relatively few locations where it
>>>> is hot, dry and water is available enough to be consumed for cooling. I
>>>> expect it is along the lines of geothermal in terms of just how many
>>>> people could actually make use of swamp coolers.
>>>
>>> Swamp coolers save a lot of energy in pretty much all of Arizona, in New
>>> Mexico, Utah, Northern California and lots of other large areas.
>>
>> Where do you get your water?

Jenkinson Lake which isn't as bad as the situation in the flatlands. Yet
we were still called to voluntarily conserve 30%. Most people don't but
we are consistently at -30% to -40% versus last year by meticulously
adjusting watering schedules for plants. With the swamp cooler operating.


>> ... My understanding is that water is a

>> limiting resource in most of the areas you mention. Locations where
>> water is plentiful tend to have a lot of it in the air so swamp coolers
>> won't work.
>
> Exactly. There have been grumblings about "prohibiting" swamp
> coolers on new construction, here, for exactly that reason.
> Ditto with "misters" used for outdoor cooling.
>
> However, this raises the bar for homeownership in ways that politicians
> shy away from -- even a "cheap" ACbrrr is going to cost considerably
> more than a "cheap" (or, *good*!) cooler (in terms of home selling
> price).
>
> You can bring electricity into an area a lot easier than you can
> bring *water* into that area!
>
> [We're not keen on drinking effluent just to allow folks to keep
> "developing", watering lawns/golf courses, spray mist on their
> outdoor patios, etc.]

Ripping out the stupid lawns everywhere would be majorly more efective
for water conservation than banning swamp coolers. As I said, our water
bill was barely different after installing the cooler. And we have zero
lawn area.

[Joerg]

rickman wrote:
> On 7/9/2014 2:46 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> Steve Wilson wrote:
>>> Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Swamp coolers also make for a nicer climate in the house. I easily get
>>>> headaches when a regular A/C is running. Not so with the swamp cooler.
>>>
>>> Maybe mold in the A/C. Try getting an inexpensive Air Quality Monitor
>>> like the Nikken:
>>>
>>> http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=nikken+air+quality+monitor
>>>
>>> They work well and are very good for tracking down sources of
>>> contamination that can cause headaches and other health problems.
>>>
>>
>> It happens everywhere, including brand-new corporate offices. Sloshing
>> partially used-up "air" around a building is simply not a very good idea
>> yet that's what traditional A/C does. Same for central heat, which is
>> why I feel much better since we installed wood and pellet stoves.
>
> Sometimes your poor thinking shines brightly. "Sloshing around" the air
> by an AC is no different from a ceiling fan blowing. If you have
> systems that bring in fresh air which help to alleviate your symptoms
> then the problem is likely a house issue, not an AC issue.
>

Educate yourself on the (measly) requirements for fresh air intake in
commercial A/C system. Then think about how that works in an evaporative
cooling scenario. Maybe then you can figure it out, too.

>
>>> I just got mine and it immediately showed two old VME crates that had
>>> serious mold problems from lint stuck in the air channels. It will
>>> take a
>>> high pressure air compressor to blow them out. The Nikken will tell when
>>> all the lint is gone.
>>>
>>> It will also help find mold spores from lint in old boatanchors like the
>>> HP 8566 or Tek 2467. These can cause severe headaches whenever you turn
>>> them on and the fans start blowing spores all over the lab.
>>>
>>
>> Never had any problems like that. The old HP3577 blows right in my face
>> all day long sometimes and it won't bother me.
>
> More poor logic... if your one piece of old equipment has no problem,
> then clearly no piece of old equipment can have a problem.
>

The HP4191 doesn't either. The Dolch logic analyzer doesn't either.
Should I go on?

Hint: I am a believer in PM and do clean this gear regularly. Which
everyone who owns and uses this gear should.

>
>> It is a good deal. But I like to keep the number of toys to a minimum
>> and regarding the inhouse climate I have found out what works well for
>> us (swamp cooler and wood heating). It was pretty extreme at my last
>> employer before I became self-employed. By around 7pm I had typically
>> worked up a good headache on some days. When I jumped into the car and
>> rolled down the windows that always cleared up by the time I hit a grade
>> into the hills where we live.
>
> Did you ever determine what you are sensitive to? Offices have
> regulations on how much fresh air is brought in but systems can (and do)
> malfunction. You can find the real cause of your problems or you can
> just blame it on central heat/AC and never figure it out.
>

Miraculously I am by far not the only one. I've asked medical
professionals about it because I used to work in that field. "Is there
anything one can do about it?" ... "Yeah, move into a building where you
can actually open a window".

[Don Y]

On 7/10/2014 2:04 PM, Joerg wrote:

[attrs elided]

>>> ... My understanding is that water is a
>>> limiting resource in most of the areas you mention. Locations where
>>> water is plentiful tend to have a lot of it in the air so swamp coolers
>>> won't work.
>>
>> Exactly. There have been grumblings about "prohibiting" swamp
>> coolers on new construction, here, for exactly that reason.
>> Ditto with "misters" used for outdoor cooling.
>>
>> However, this raises the bar for homeownership in ways that politicians
>> shy away from -- even a "cheap" ACbrrr is going to cost considerably
>> more than a "cheap" (or, *good*!) cooler (in terms of home selling
>> price).
>>
>> You can bring electricity into an area a lot easier than you can
>> bring *water* into that area!
>>
>> [We're not keen on drinking effluent just to allow folks to keep
>> "developing", watering lawns/golf courses, spray mist on their
>> outdoor patios, etc.]
>
> Ripping out the stupid lawns everywhere would be majorly more efective
> for water conservation than banning swamp coolers. As I said, our water
> bill was barely different after installing the cooler. And we have zero
> lawn area.

I would guesstimate over 95% of the residential properties have no
"lawn" -- crushed stone *or* "natural desert". I *think* I can find
perhaps two "patches of grass" in our subdivision (~200 homes) and
neither would qualify as a "lawn".

The most common abusers are BUSINESSES that deliberately want to flaunt
their water use. There is no legislation prohibiting water use; just
a pricing structure that discourages "waste" (of course, that leaves
it up to the purchaser to decide what constitutes "waste"!)

Figure ~15,000 gallons of water annually getting dumped into the air
*per* swamp cooler and that's a significant amount of water for a
region that gets ~11 inches of rainfall annually!

(I think swimming pools are similarly frowned upon. I can't think
of anyone who *uses* their pool -- unless their grandkids fly in
from midwestville -- on even an *occasional* schedule yet they can
lose up to an inch of water, daily, in the hot/dry months)

[Joerg]

Just a typical neighborhood around here:

http://goo.gl/maps/GX3ZY

> The most common abusers are BUSINESSES that deliberately want to flaunt

> their water use. There is no legislation prohibiting water use; ...


There is here now.

> ... just

> a pricing structure that discourages "waste" (of course, that leaves
> it up to the purchaser to decide what constitutes "waste"!)
>
> Figure ~15,000 gallons of water annually getting dumped into the air
> *per* swamp cooler and that's a significant amount of water for a
> region that gets ~11 inches of rainfall annually!
>

Ours doesn't even get close. Even if yours uses 50gals/day as your wrote
earlier: Assume 10h/day of usage and four months. That's only 2500
gallons. People don't run it in winter.

> (I think swimming pools are similarly frowned upon. I can't think
> of anyone who *uses* their pool -- unless their grandkids fly in
> from midwestville -- on even an *occasional* schedule yet they can
> lose up to an inch of water, daily, in the hot/dry months)

We would never buy a house with pool again. Yeah, it's nice right now.
But all that maintenance.

[josephkk]

On Thu, 10 Jul 2014 13:58:20 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>
>> [I may have forgotten a few details as we are not using the cooler
>> anymore]
>>
>> By contrast, the ACbrrr just sees "turn circuit breaker on" and
>> "turn circuit off" as it's regular maintenance activities.
>>
>
>Well, you should clean the condenser. I used to do that once at season
>start and then after every major pollen/dust/soot or whatever storm.
>

There is usually an air filter associated with the AC (particularly
central types); that needs replaced or cleaned (depending on type)
annually or more often.

?-)

[mrob...@att.net]

Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> Don Y wrote:
>
>> By contrast, the ACbrrr just sees "turn circuit breaker on" and "turn
>> circuit off" as it's regular maintenance activities.
>
> Well, you should clean the condenser.

At my parents' house, the original A/C was installed about 1969. In
about 1985 or so, we turned it on in the spring and it went through all
the motions but blew warm air. Dad called for a service tech and two
minutes after the tech got there, he asked for a garden hose... once the
condenser was hosed out, coolth returned. Since seeing that, I try to
hose mine out every year.

>> And, if you don't have an attic, that's why you have a linear
>> actuator on skylights! :>
>
> The fire marshall might not like that :-)

In commercial buildings in Germany, I have seen roof vents that were
apparently tied into the fire alarm system. The hotel I stayed at had
them in the stairwells. The panel was usually closed, but there was an
air or hydraulic cylinder (it had plumbing, not wires) that could open
it. Pretty typical hotel layout - long skinny building with a stairwell
at the short end, a corridor with rooms on each side, stairwell and
elevators in the middle, more rooms, stairwell at the other short end.

I *suspect*, but don't know, that the idea is that if there isn't a fire
in or close to that particular stairwell, it's better to open that vent
to help clear smoke from the stairwell. I don't know if the vent
automatically opens, or if a firefighter has to manually activate it
once they have checked the stairwell.

I've never seen this in the US.

> TV has become unreliable as a weather forecast since this dreaded
> switch to digital. But we can gauge it pretty well by eye.

There's always 162.x MHz, narrowband FM... if you haven't listened in a
while, they've gotten an improved Mr. Roboto that is easier to hear. :)

Matt Roberds

[Don Y]

On 7/10/2014 1:58 PM, Joerg wrote:

>> If you aren't servicing your cooler twice a year (before and after
>> cooler season), chances are, you've got bigger problems!
>
> I service ours about every three weeks. Keeps it nice and clean.

Roof mounted makes that very tedious. Just dragging a garden hose up
there is a challenge!

>> Prior to starting cooler season, we would:
>> - uncover the cooler
>> - reinstall the belt on the fan motor
>> - oil the bushings
>> - verify the quality of the pad (in case we were going to replace it
>> at the end of last cooling season and "forgot")
>> - reinstall overflow tube
>> - turn on water supply
>> - verify water level control valve (float) operating
>> - verify pan never OVERfills
>> - turn on circuit breaker
>> - verify fan, water, and purge pumps operating
>> - verify "dry side" of cooler free of any water infiltration
>> - verify no leaks from bottom of pan
>> - verify cooler pan remains level (no water leaking out side of pan)
>> - remove the manual "gate" and reinstall barometric damper
>
> Similar here, sans the belt because there is none. Sounds more
> complicated than it really is once it becomes routine.

Didn't mean to imply it was complicated. Just another "chore".
I.e., you can't just turn the cooler on (because it "suddenly" got
hot) and expect it to use it.

By contrast, the AC condenser I can just squirt with a garden
hose DRAGGED ACROSS THE YARD to clean off the coils. It's
location protects it from accumulating much debris "inside"
the coil loop. Unlike the cooler, I *can* just turn the unit
on and expect cool air -- even if I forget/delay hosing down the
condenser.

>> By contrast, the ACbrrr just sees "turn circuit breaker on" and
>> "turn circuit off" as it's regular maintenance activities.
>
> Well, you should clean the condenser. I used to do that once at season
> start and then after every major pollen/dust/soot or whatever storm.

Where ours is located, it sees very little plant debris (nothing
to shed leaves onto/into it). It may get a little *dusty* -- but
Monsoon will wash it clean if I forget to.

>>>> ... Other worthwhile
>>>> additions are trivial to implement (e.g., a sacrificial anode in the
>>>> pan).
>>>>
>>>> When I wrote the HVAC controller, here, I watched how the cooler and
>>>> ACbrrr operated (simply by logging indoor/outdoor/operating conditions).
>>>> My goal being *smart* control not just control for the sake of control.
>>>>
>>>> E.g., two speeds is all you need for a cooler -- LOW when the house
>>>> can easily be *maintained* at a desired "comfort setting" and HIGH
>>>> when you need to move *to* a comfort setting (e.g., if house has been
>>>> unoccupied all day; silly to keep it wet and sticky!). ...
>>>
>>> That's why there's Updux :-)
>>
>> And, if you don't have an attic, that's why you have a linear actuator
>> on skylights! :>
>
> The fire marshall might not like that :-)

Upscale homes already have such items. E.g., X-10 remote controlled.

The bigger problem is we don't have skylights in every room. Those
without would not realize the full DIRECT benefits of the cooler's
operation.

E.g., even using a window as a vent/exhaust, it is difficult to keep
the office comfortable when I have several servers running. So,
I try not to *need* more than one at a time! (eventually, I will
extend the ductwork into the storage room off the garage and bring
that into the normal "living space"; but, requires knocking a
doorway through a load bearing wall so I am not in a hurry to
tackle that...)

>>>> ... The same is
>>>> probably true of the furnace (though ours only operates at a single
>>>> speed as it quickly brings the house to temperature)
>>>>
>>>> [Of course, in our case, the cooler is on the roof so we only really
>>>> hear the air flow through the ducts, not the motor noise, etc.]
>>>
>>> VF drive has big advantages. Aside from no sudden air inrush it is also
>>> better for the material. A motor that runs slow and cool most of the
>>> time will live longer than one that runs on-off full bore. Efficiency
>>> can also improve because many coolers suck the pads too dry on hot or
>>> windy days. When it runs 70% all day instead of 100% intermittently that
>>> problem can be avoided.
>>
>> We found that our cooler ran on low most of the day. If it shifted
>> to HIGH, we took that as a sign that outdoor conditions were too
>> much for the cooler to keep up. You *want* the fan to run as it
>> keeps positive pressure inside the house without which, the hot/dry
>> air from outside will blow in through all the open windows!
>
> Sure, but it doesn't even need "low" to keep up that pressure. Also,
> once the cooler is on VF drive that can be thermaostat controlled so it
> would automagically speed up when hot air wafts inside.

You don't JUST want pressure. You also want to move the HUMID air *out*
of the house -- continuously. Of course, it just gets replaced with
*more* humid air but the new air and its motion contribute to the
feeling of comfort.

We did notice the huge swings in humidity (5%RH to 60+%) took a toll
on much of the furniture -- especially the antiques. I guess they
don't like expanding and contracting like that. Worse if you switch
between cooling mechanisms (daily expand/contract vs. "seasonal")

>>>> The biggest win comes from being able to decide *when* to use the
>>>> cooler, when to STOP using it, and when to use the ACbrrrr.
>>>>
>>>> At the very least, you need local environmental data to evaluate the
>>>> effectivity of each at achieving your desired comfort setting. E.g.,
>>>> what's the local wet and dry bulb temperatures.
>>>
>>> Why? It is very easy to sense intake and output temperatures. We are
>>> sensing only output which I find enough. If the air coming out is less
>>> than 74F it's fine, if it's much higher we turn it off.
>>
>> When it's 115 outside, your cooler won't be able to achieve a
>> reasonable "comfort setting"! Even if it can drive the temperature
>> down 30 degrees, the resulting air is *soup* -- 85 and humid sucks!
>
> It doesn't get to 115F much here but it does get to 110F. It worked
> nicely through that because the outside humidity is close to zero during
> those times.

We typically have ~100 days where the peak temperature exceeds 100F
starting in about mid May and ending around 1 Sep (though it's been
that hot in October, sporadically). Unfortunately, humidity
increases in early July through mid August. So, you're facing
100+ with (relatively) high humidity (e.g., currently about 60%RH)

>> If you turn off the cooler when it is no longer comfortable, then
>> you are left sitting in a house with windows closed (else the interior
>> temperature will quickly rise to the outdoor temperature) hoping it
>> doesn't get *much* hotter (and, it is already "humid", inside).
>>
>> Instead, we (in the past) would button up the house, turn off the cooler
>> and turn on the ACbrrr. But, now it has to work to remove all that
>> moisture from the house. ...
>
> Yup, and there goes a lot of the energy savings.

There's no free lunch. Sit in a "muggy" house "relatively inactive"
(lest you drown in perspiration) or use more aggressive means to
make the house more comfortable for a wider variety of activities.

The ACbrrr's biggest appeal, to me, is dehumidification.

I moved 20+ tons of stone into the yard when the outdoor temperature
was above 110F (117 on one day). I was *more* comfortable outside
than I was returning to the swamp cooled house, afterwards -- because
I wasn't soaked in perspiration out in that heat (5%RH) but immediately
was "drenched" when I came indoors -- 30+ degrees cooler but humidity
approaching 70%!

[I was surprised at how easy *heat* is to tolerate -- as long as it is
dry *and* you are not in direct sunlight. You just have to get used
to drinking a quart of water every half hour, NOT perspiring and NEVER
having to take a piss! These tend to have a disconcerting psychological
effect -- "Where the hell is all the water going???"]

>> A better solution is to *know* this is likely to happen and avoid
>> the need to change cooling mechanisms mid-day. E.g., we wouldn't
>> even bother to turn the cooler on once Monsoon started. It was a
>> *known* that it would not be able to keep the house comfortable
>> in the high temps and outdoor humidity that we *expected* each day.

>> Unfortunately, Monsoon isn't a homogenous experience. It is not
>> uncommon for things to "dry out" for extended periods of time
>> *in* Monsoon. Just looking at temperatures isn't enough to tell
>> you how you should control *now* or even *today*. That's why
>> there is a fair bit of "art" to using a dual-cooling system.
>> Watching weather forecasts, actual conditions developing, etc. and
>> using "wetware" to decide which appliance to use on any given day.
>>
>> [you end up playing it safe and using the ACbrrr more often than
>> not as the cooler->ACbrrr transition is usually an admission that
>> you screwed up and are now uncomfortable as a result]
>
> We pretty much play that by the ear. TV has become unreliable as a
> weather forecast since this dreaded switch to digital. But we can gauge
> it pretty well by eye.

Forecasts (even current conditions) are pretty meaningless, here.
Too many microclimates. E.g., our street is probably four blocks
long. But, Spring flowers (same species) will bloom two weeks
earlier on the other end of the street than here. Likewise,
our winter lows and summer highs are several degrees lower/higher
than reported for nearby "weather observations".

Hence the reason for the rooftop weather station -- I don't care
what the humidity is "downtown" -- or, even at the monitoring station
across the was (~1 mile as the crow flies). I can look up and see
rain in one direction, virga in another, and clear skies above! :<

>>>> ... Windspeed also plays
>>>> a role as it can force air through the pads in "gusts" effectively
>>>> allowing hotter, drier air into the system than intended. You also
>>>> need to be able to monitor conditions *inside* to ensure the house
>>>> itself isn't becoming saturated (e.g., by insufficient exhaust
>>>> ventilation)
>>>
>>> That's pretty easy. We make sure the ventilation matches the cooler
>>> setting (high/low). One can also measure the pressure differential.
>>
>> It's not static! Are you going to keep tweaking your VFD every
>> time a gust of wind comes along blowing hot air *in* through
>> your open windows?
>
> Nope. Hint: PID-regulator. A really sloooow one. This is where a uC is
> called for.

Doesn't matter how fast/slow your control loop operates. Gust of
wind is too short of a disturbance -- hot dry air comes *in* the
window. You can't react quick enough to detect and counter it!
By the time you *do* react, it is gone and you've just created
an "artificial gust" inside the house. Overdamp your response
and you've done nothing to counter the incursion.

Given that the outside air is MUCH hotter (20-30F) and much *drier*,
it becomes very noticeable. Your only practical recourse is to
install windbreaks to diffuse these (some office buildings here
do just that -- of course, it's an eyesore to those hoping to
stare out their window...)

>> The cooler's effect relies on open windows in each room -- because
>> the cooler isn't recirculating air but, rather, EXHAUSTING the
>> "hot"/stale air *through* those opened windows. I.e., no matter
>> which direction the wind originates, chances are, you have open
>> windows/vents facing that direction. Stand by a window and feel
>> a blast of 100+ air blowing *in* and you really notice it (windows
>> tend to be located in places where people sit, sleep, work, eat, etc.)
>
> On hot days, if there is any wind, it comes from the south and we don't
> have any windows in that directtion. Well, one slightly in the kitchen
> and then we just open another one instead on those days.

South side, here, is largely consumed by the location of the garage.
Wind comes from every direction, here. Microbursts tend to come
from the North (closest side to the mountains) but storms come in
from the South (Mexico), North, West (CA) and even East (NM, TX).
Wind direction is usually a coarse predictor of our likelihood for
precipitation.

>>> All you need to measure for that is output temperature. 74F is our
>>> limit, works well.
>>
>> And, at that point, you just resign yourself to being uncomfortable?
>> Or, do you resort to some *other* cooling mechanism (gee, maybe AC)?
>
> That's the output temp from the cooler. Yesterday it was 80F in the
> house with the cooler on high. A bit much for my wife but bearable. For
> me, just fine.

It isn't possible to get the house down to 80F with a cooler, here,
during Monsoon. And, in Summer, not possible once the outdoor temps
climb above 110.

By contrast, it'll be 100+ with DP above 60 and the ACbrrr will still
be operating at a low duty cycle.

>> [Forget using one *during* a rain storm!
>
> Wot's a rain storm? :-)

When you get an inch of rain in an hour.

>> Currently, I have a small weather station on the roof so I can
>> watch conditions *here* (which ALWAYS differ from those reported
>> on the "news" due to microclimates around town). I use this
>> for instantaneous climate data for the controller (as well as the
>> irrigation controller -- don't bother to irrigate if it's likely
>> to rain/has rained!) so it knows whether the cooler "makes sense"
>> as a cooling option "now".
>>
>> [I am unhappy with the humidity sensor, though. The constant
>> sun/heat exposure seems to render them inoperable, quickly.
>> And, I'm not keen on the expense and maintenance of a chilled
>> mirror technology!]
>
> Or ... run a MEMS-size mini cooler which gives you that information :-)

Have to come up with solutions that can easily be reproduced without
*me* having to make big investments (that essentially "benefit others"
more than myself). Telling someone to buy any of the many such
"weather monitoring stations" commercially available takes a lot
less of my time and money. And, gives me more information (*is*
it raining? what is the amount of total rainfall? what direction is
the wind blowing? etc.)

Hard to tell what evapotranspiration is likely to be without more
detailed measurements than a "cooler model". Or, whether I should
*rush* to use any harvested rainwater NOW to be able to accommodate
any likely precipitation "soon".

>>> Out here it's easy. You turn on the cooler and occasionally peek out the
>>> office window. If clouds roll in it may make sense to turn it off.
>>> Otherwise we just keep it running and when it gets to cold in the
>>> evening we turn it off earlier than usual.
>>
>> In Summer, it is *usually* 90+ at 11PM. It *may* drop to 80
>> in the early morning hours. (surprisingly, this feels "cool")
>>
>> OTOH, in Monsoon, 80 is icky -- midwestern/new england summer icky!
>>
>> I.e., temperature alone tells a controller nothing. This is why
>> so many cooler controllers are jokes.
>
> You need both the cooler input and output temps, plus the house temp.

Still tells you nothing historical or predictive. Is the barometric
pressure FALLING? If so, chances are a storm may be moving in
(which means humidifying the house will be a losing proposition as
the outdoor conditions will be getting more humid).

These are the sorts of "expert decisions" that a human makes by
"looking out the window". He surely can't tell the *temperature*
by such a visual observation! (unless he is glancing at a thermometer
mounted outside the window! :> )

But, you can only do that if you can make (and record!) lots of
observations *and* actively (intuitively?) correlate between
them. I.e., something to which a machine is ideally suited!

<grin> Doubtful. Had no problems in Boston or Denver. (Boston
I figure was too urban for "natural" allergens; yet Denver/burbs
was nowhere near as much). Only problems "mowing the lawn" in Chicago
(despite being *far* more exposed to natural allergens). No lawns
here but my "seasonal allergies" have become "continual allergies" (as
something is *always* blooming with our year-round growing cycles).

Yet, SWMBO suffers on days that don't bother me at all! :-/

I've seen many folks from "out of town" literally unable to *see*
due to the excessive tearing and sneezing when they encounter our
flora. Don't know whether it's the quantity of airborn allergens,
the variety or just the fact that they are all "foreign" to their
immune systems... :<

Scratch test I think I "hit" on 43 of 45 allergens tested. MD
decided further testing would just reveal "more of the same" :-/

[What was most amusing was the things to which I had *no* reaction!
E.g., negative to "dog" but positive to cat and horse, etc.]

(SWMBO was really annoyed that *dust* wasn't a problem for me as
she was hoping she could use it to motivate me to "dust" the office
more often :> )

Allergies are annoying -- and can seriously impact quality of
life! -- but there are folks with far bigger problems that help
remind us to keep things in perspective!

[Joerg]

Don Y wrote:
> On 7/10/2014 1:58 PM, Joerg wrote:
>

[...]

>>>>> ... Other worthwhile
>>>>> additions are trivial to implement (e.g., a sacrificial anode in the
>>>>> pan).
>>>>>
>>>>> When I wrote the HVAC controller, here, I watched how the cooler and
>>>>> ACbrrr operated (simply by logging indoor/outdoor/operating
>>>>> conditions).
>>>>> My goal being *smart* control not just control for the sake of
>>>>> control.
>>>>>
>>>>> E.g., two speeds is all you need for a cooler -- LOW when the house
>>>>> can easily be *maintained* at a desired "comfort setting" and HIGH
>>>>> when you need to move *to* a comfort setting (e.g., if house has been
>>>>> unoccupied all day; silly to keep it wet and sticky!). ...
>>>>
>>>> That's why there's Updux :-)
>>>
>>> And, if you don't have an attic, that's why you have a linear actuator
>>> on skylights! :>
>>
>> The fire marshall might not like that :-)
>
> Upscale homes already have such items. E.g., X-10 remote controlled.
>

X-10 is junk and unreliable. We have it. I've already ripped out and
trashed most of it.

> The bigger problem is we don't have skylights in every room. Those
> without would not realize the full DIRECT benefits of the cooler's
> operation.
>
> E.g., even using a window as a vent/exhaust, it is difficult to keep
> the office comfortable when I have several servers running. So,
> I try not to *need* more than one at a time! (eventually, I will
> extend the ductwork into the storage room off the garage and bring
> that into the normal "living space"; but, requires knocking a
> doorway through a load bearing wall so I am not in a hurry to
> tackle that...)
>

Those are the home project I try to postpone as long as I can.

We've never had such problems.

>>>>> The biggest win comes from being able to decide *when* to use the
>>>>> cooler, when to STOP using it, and when to use the ACbrrrr.
>>>>>
>>>>> At the very least, you need local environmental data to evaluate the
>>>>> effectivity of each at achieving your desired comfort setting. E.g.,
>>>>> what's the local wet and dry bulb temperatures.
>>>>
>>>> Why? It is very easy to sense intake and output temperatures. We are
>>>> sensing only output which I find enough. If the air coming out is less
>>>> than 74F it's fine, if it's much higher we turn it off.
>>>
>>> When it's 115 outside, your cooler won't be able to achieve a
>>> reasonable "comfort setting"! Even if it can drive the temperature
>>> down 30 degrees, the resulting air is *soup* -- 85 and humid sucks!
>>
>> It doesn't get to 115F much here but it does get to 110F. It worked
>> nicely through that because the outside humidity is close to zero during
>> those times.
>
> We typically have ~100 days where the peak temperature exceeds 100F
> starting in about mid May and ending around 1 Sep (though it's been
> that hot in October, sporadically). Unfortunately, humidity
> increases in early July through mid August. So, you're facing
> 100+ with (relatively) high humidity (e.g., currently about 60%RH)
>

Then game's over for a swamp cooler.

>>> If you turn off the cooler when it is no longer comfortable, then
>>> you are left sitting in a house with windows closed (else the interior
>>> temperature will quickly rise to the outdoor temperature) hoping it
>>> doesn't get *much* hotter (and, it is already "humid", inside).
>>>
>>> Instead, we (in the past) would button up the house, turn off the cooler
>>> and turn on the ACbrrr. But, now it has to work to remove all that
>>> moisture from the house. ...
>>
>> Yup, and there goes a lot of the energy savings.
>
> There's no free lunch. Sit in a "muggy" house "relatively inactive"
> (lest you drown in perspiration) or use more aggressive means to
> make the house more comfortable for a wider variety of activities.
>
> The ACbrrr's biggest appeal, to me, is dehumidification.
>

But it also causes discomfort, for example in people like me. I can
easily hike or bike in 110F and zero humidity outdoors but cooled dry
air sloshing round and round in a building makes me uncomfy.

> I moved 20+ tons of stone into the yard when the outdoor temperature
> was above 110F (117 on one day). I was *more* comfortable outside
> than I was returning to the swamp cooled house, afterwards -- because
> I wasn't soaked in perspiration out in that heat (5%RH) but immediately
> was "drenched" when I came indoors -- 30+ degrees cooler but humidity
> approaching 70%!
>
> [I was surprised at how easy *heat* is to tolerate -- as long as it is
> dry *and* you are not in direct sunlight. You just have to get used
> to drinking a quart of water every half hour, NOT perspiring and NEVER
> having to take a piss! These tend to have a disconcerting psychological
> effect -- "Where the hell is all the water going???"]
>

Depends on what you are doing. When I mountain bike and step on it (I
tend to always do) then my T-shirt is drenched within 30 minutes.

I just look at the outdoor thermometer and the cooler discharge temp,
then I know. In the beginning I looked at the humidity reading from the
local weather station afterwards and it was always spot-on.

>>>>> ... Windspeed also plays
>>>>> a role as it can force air through the pads in "gusts" effectively
>>>>> allowing hotter, drier air into the system than intended. You also
>>>>> need to be able to monitor conditions *inside* to ensure the house
>>>>> itself isn't becoming saturated (e.g., by insufficient exhaust
>>>>> ventilation)
>>>>
>>>> That's pretty easy. We make sure the ventilation matches the cooler
>>>> setting (high/low). One can also measure the pressure differential.
>>>
>>> It's not static! Are you going to keep tweaking your VFD every
>>> time a gust of wind comes along blowing hot air *in* through
>>> your open windows?
>>
>> Nope. Hint: PID-regulator. A really sloooow one. This is where a uC is
>> called for.
>
> Doesn't matter how fast/slow your control loop operates. Gust of
> wind is too short of a disturbance -- hot dry air comes *in* the
> window. You can't react quick enough to detect and counter it!
> By the time you *do* react, it is gone and you've just created
> an "artificial gust" inside the house. Overdamp your response
> and you've done nothing to counter the incursion.
>

We do not open windows in the direction where the wind comes from and
never had that problem.

> Given that the outside air is MUCH hotter (20-30F) and much *drier*,
> it becomes very noticeable. Your only practical recourse is to
> install windbreaks to diffuse these (some office buildings here
> do just that -- of course, it's an eyesore to those hoping to
> stare out their window...)
>

At one area whe have a natural windbreak that looks pretty and even
blooms: Two oleanders. They bloom in girly-color though, my wife planted
them :-)

>>> The cooler's effect relies on open windows in each room -- because
>>> the cooler isn't recirculating air but, rather, EXHAUSTING the
>>> "hot"/stale air *through* those opened windows. I.e., no matter
>>> which direction the wind originates, chances are, you have open
>>> windows/vents facing that direction. Stand by a window and feel
>>> a blast of 100+ air blowing *in* and you really notice it (windows
>>> tend to be located in places where people sit, sleep, work, eat, etc.)
>>
>> On hot days, if there is any wind, it comes from the south and we don't
>> have any windows in that directtion. Well, one slightly in the kitchen
>> and then we just open another one instead on those days.
>
> South side, here, is largely consumed by the location of the garage.
> Wind comes from every direction, here. Microbursts tend to come
> from the North (closest side to the mountains) but storms come in
> from the South (Mexico), North, West (CA) and even East (NM, TX).
> Wind direction is usually a coarse predictor of our likelihood for
> precipitation.
>

I don't mind microbursts. When I work with the window open I get the
occasional one into the office. No big deal. Takes only a minute or so
untill cooler air from the swamp cooler pushes it back out.

>>>> All you need to measure for that is output temperature. 74F is our
>>>> limit, works well.
>>>
>>> And, at that point, you just resign yourself to being uncomfortable?
>>> Or, do you resort to some *other* cooling mechanism (gee, maybe AC)?
>>
>> That's the output temp from the cooler. Yesterday it was 80F in the
>> house with the cooler on high. A bit much for my wife but bearable. For
>> me, just fine.
>
> It isn't possible to get the house down to 80F with a cooler, here,
> during Monsoon. And, in Summer, not possible once the outdoor temps
> climb above 110.
>
> By contrast, it'll be 100+ with DP above 60 and the ACbrrr will still
> be operating at a low duty cycle.
>

Ours would run >50% most of the time. Combine that with punitive
invertse tiers in the power bill (higher kWhs cost 3-4x) and you'll hear
a gigantic slurping noise. From your bank account.

>>> [Forget using one *during* a rain storm!
>>
>> Wot's a rain storm? :-)
>
> When you get an inch of rain in an hour.
>

Ah, Caribbean style. I know those but we don't have that.

[...]

>>>> Out here it's easy. You turn on the cooler and occasionally peek out
>>>> the
>>>> office window. If clouds roll in it may make sense to turn it off.
>>>> Otherwise we just keep it running and when it gets to cold in the
>>>> evening we turn it off earlier than usual.
>>>
>>> In Summer, it is *usually* 90+ at 11PM. It *may* drop to 80
>>> in the early morning hours. (surprisingly, this feels "cool")
>>>
>>> OTOH, in Monsoon, 80 is icky -- midwestern/new england summer icky!
>>>
>>> I.e., temperature alone tells a controller nothing. This is why
>>> so many cooler controllers are jokes.
>>
>> You need both the cooler input and output temps, plus the house temp.
>
> Still tells you nothing historical or predictive. Is the barometric
> pressure FALLING? If so, chances are a storm may be moving in
> (which means humidifying the house will be a losing proposition as
> the outdoor conditions will be getting more humid).
>

Well, the cooler can simply stop when that happens.

> These are the sorts of "expert decisions" that a human makes by
> "looking out the window". He surely can't tell the *temperature*
> by such a visual observation! (unless he is glancing at a thermometer
> mounted outside the window! :> )
>
> But, you can only do that if you can make (and record!) lots of
> observations *and* actively (intuitively?) correlate between
> them. I.e., something to which a machine is ideally suited!
>

However, the outside thermometer has been invented a couple hundred
years ago :-)

That is something frequently happening to people here. We live near
Sacramento, the pollen capital of the US. Folks told me that I'd be a
suffered in less than 10 years. We'll, pushing on 20 now and no problems.

> Yet, SWMBO suffers on days that don't bother me at all! :-/
>

Same here :-(

> I've seen many folks from "out of town" literally unable to *see*
> due to the excessive tearing and sneezing when they encounter our
> flora. Don't know whether it's the quantity of airborn allergens,
> the variety or just the fact that they are all "foreign" to their
> immune systems... :<
>
> Scratch test I think I "hit" on 43 of 45 allergens tested. MD
> decided further testing would just reveal "more of the same" :-/
>
> [What was most amusing was the things to which I had *no* reaction!
> E.g., negative to "dog" but positive to cat and horse, etc.]
>

Oh, then don't go mountain biking here. Lots and lots of horses. On many
trails my main job behind the handlebar is dogding horse poop.

> (SWMBO was really annoyed that *dust* wasn't a problem for me as
> she was hoping she could use it to motivate me to "dust" the office
> more often :> )
>
> Allergies are annoying -- and can seriously impact quality of
> life! -- but there are folks with far bigger problems that help
> remind us to keep things in perspective!

Yep. And many of them avoidable by more exercise, stopping to smoke, and
so on.

I am quite convinced that the rash of (often life-0threatening) peanut
allergies in the US is caused by keeping kids cooped up in sterile
environments too much. Farmer's kids almost never get that.

[Joerg]

mrob...@att.net wrote:
> Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> Don Y wrote:
>>
>>> By contrast, the ACbrrr just sees "turn circuit breaker on" and "turn
>>> circuit off" as it's regular maintenance activities.
>> Well, you should clean the condenser.
>
> At my parents' house, the original A/C was installed about 1969. In
> about 1985 or so, we turned it on in the spring and it went through all
> the motions but blew warm air. Dad called for a service tech and two
> minutes after the tech got there, he asked for a garden hose... once the
> condenser was hosed out, coolth returned. Since seeing that, I try to
> hose mine out every year.
>

And straighten out the fins where li'l Joey's basketball hit it.

>>> And, if you don't have an attic, that's why you have a linear
>>> actuator on skylights! :>
>> The fire marshall might not like that :-)
>
> In commercial buildings in Germany, I have seen roof vents that were
> apparently tied into the fire alarm system. The hotel I stayed at had
> them in the stairwells. The panel was usually closed, but there was an
> air or hydraulic cylinder (it had plumbing, not wires) that could open
> it. Pretty typical hotel layout - long skinny building with a stairwell
> at the short end, a corridor with rooms on each side, stairwell and
> elevators in the middle, more rooms, stairwell at the other short end.
>
> I *suspect*, but don't know, that the idea is that if there isn't a fire
> in or close to that particular stairwell, it's better to open that vent
> to help clear smoke from the stairwell. I don't know if the vent
> automatically opens, or if a firefighter has to manually activate it
> once they have checked the stairwell.
>

That's where I learned about it. It's all automatically controlled and
saves lives.

> I've never seen this in the US.
>

There is a lot of stuff we don't have in the US and it costs lives. Like
inductive train collision avoidance. That's when I lost my last sliver
of faith in engineering licensure because it was licensed engineers who
signed off on rail systems that are severely subpar with what was
state-of-the-art in Europe more than half a century ago. Pathetic.

>> TV has become unreliable as a weather forecast since this dreaded
>> switch to digital. But we can gauge it pretty well by eye.
>
> There's always 162.x MHz, narrowband FM... if you haven't listened in a
> while, they've gotten an improved Mr. Roboto that is easier to hear. :)
>

I'd rather listen to Ms.Roboto :-)

[Joerg]

The condenser is the outside heat exchanger, outdoors.

[Don Y]

On 7/11/2014 12:32 PM, Joerg wrote:
> Don Y wrote:

>> (SWMBO was really annoyed that *dust* wasn't a problem for me as
>> she was hoping she could use it to motivate me to "dust" the office
>> more often :> )
>>
>> Allergies are annoying -- and can seriously impact quality of
>> life! -- but there are folks with far bigger problems that help
>> remind us to keep things in perspective!
>
> Yep. And many of them avoidable by more exercise, stopping to smoke, and
> so on.
>
> I am quite convinced that the rash of (often life-0threatening) peanut
> allergies in the US is caused by keeping kids cooped up in sterile
> environments too much. Farmer's kids almost never get that.

It could be that folks inclined to allergies that would be exacerbated
by a farming lifestyle migrate AWAY from farming as a vocation!

I'm pretty sure (despite Lamark) that being *in* that environment
and developing a tolerance to particular allergens would not, by
itself, be passed on to progeny.

[However, I can't claim that exposure during pregnancy wouldn't
provide some inbred immunity to the offspring; nor that exposure
after birth wouldn't help alleviate symptoms!]

In my case, I apparently had severe allergies from birth (some of
the symptom remedies that have been recounted to me seem really
gruesome!). But, going of to "the big city" for college seemed
to leave them behind. Likewise, other relocations thereafter
saw "diminished" sensitivity (much more troubling than my years
at school but much better than my youth -- which frequently saw
my eyes swollen *shut*).

I was pretty confident that I had largely "outgrown" them as an
adult -- only to find them return with a vengeance when I moved
here! :<

[I tried a year of SLIT a couple of years back... not sure if
that made a difference but SWMBO claims my reactions are much
less severe than they've been, historically. <shrug> I guess
SCIT isn't practical when you have year-round symptoms :< ]

[Don Y]

Replace all the green with brown, gold, pink, violet (stone colors)
and you'd have *this* neighborhood (probably the same number of
pools, etc.)

>> The most common abusers are BUSINESSES that deliberately want to flaunt
>> their water use. There is no legislation prohibiting water use; ...
>
>
> There is here now.

I think it is part of the state constitution that water access can't
be restricted -- hence the pricing disincentive.

I think you can be fined for "wasting water" -- e.g., if irrigation
water runs off your property onto the sidewalk, into the street, etc.
But, I've never heard of anyone cited, thusly.

[And, folks routinely drain their swimming pools into the roadways
so how is that any different?]

>> ... just
>> a pricing structure that discourages "waste" (of course, that leaves
>> it up to the purchaser to decide what constitutes "waste"!)
>>
>> Figure ~15,000 gallons of water annually getting dumped into the air
>> *per* swamp cooler and that's a significant amount of water for a
>> region that gets ~11 inches of rainfall annually!
>
> Ours doesn't even get close. Even if yours uses 50gals/day as your wrote
> earlier: Assume 10h/day of usage and four months. That's only 2500
> gallons. People don't run it in winter.

4 months * 30 days/month * 50G/day = 6000 gallons. Figures here
are closer to 20,000 gallons (for a home without an alternative
cooling strategy)! We have a *long* cooling season! (What we have
of "Winter" is more like 5 days! :> Actually, I don't think it dropped
*to* freezing this past Winter!)

>> (I think swimming pools are similarly frowned upon. I can't think
>> of anyone who *uses* their pool -- unless their grandkids fly in
>> from midwestville -- on even an *occasional* schedule yet they can
>> lose up to an inch of water, daily, in the hot/dry months)
>
> We would never buy a house with pool again. Yeah, it's nice right now.
> But all that maintenance.

Yup. We see many neighbors with yards wasted on pools that sit idle.
Cost, maintenance, liability, etc. I think they are now being seen
NOT as "assets" but as "things to avoid" by many home purchasers!

We'd talked of buying an "infinite pool" (none of the pools here
are large enough for me to take a single *stroke* before crashing
into the far end wall! Figure you need 20 ft just to kick off...).
But, I want to work *less* around here, not more! Retirement
should be for working on things you *enjoy*! :>

[josephkk]

I was talking about the one associated with the indoor air handler that
includes the evaporator.

?-)

[Joerg]

Don Y wrote:
> On 7/11/2014 12:32 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> Don Y wrote:
>
>>> (SWMBO was really annoyed that *dust* wasn't a problem for me as
>>> she was hoping she could use it to motivate me to "dust" the office
>>> more often :> )
>>>
>>> Allergies are annoying -- and can seriously impact quality of
>>> life! -- but there are folks with far bigger problems that help
>>> remind us to keep things in perspective!
>>
>> Yep. And many of them avoidable by more exercise, stopping to smoke, and
>> so on.
>>
>> I am quite convinced that the rash of (often life-0threatening) peanut
>> allergies in the US is caused by keeping kids cooped up in sterile
>> environments too much. Farmer's kids almost never get that.
>
> It could be that folks inclined to allergies that would be exacerbated
> by a farming lifestyle migrate AWAY from farming as a vocation!
>

Normally not. When they migrate away it's either very early on because
some of the kids had no interest in farming or later when they couldn't
make a go of it economically.

> I'm pretty sure (despite Lamark) that being *in* that environment
> and developing a tolerance to particular allergens would not, by
> itself, be passed on to progeny.
>

Not that, it's being exposed to stuff that makes one tougher. Kids that
were babied way too much and kept away from any and all virus and
bacteria risks can become much more sensitive.

For example, I knew a lot of farming people while living in Europe and I
know some here (though it's monst ranchers out here). I can't remember a
single one of them being an allergy sufferer. City folk, plenty of them.
Out here it hits many of the Silicon Valley transplants really hard.

> [However, I can't claim that exposure during pregnancy wouldn't
> provide some inbred immunity to the offspring; nor that exposure
> after birth wouldn't help alleviate symptoms!]
>
> In my case, I apparently had severe allergies from birth (some of
> the symptom remedies that have been recounted to me seem really
> gruesome!). But, going of to "the big city" for college seemed
> to leave them behind. Likewise, other relocations thereafter
> saw "diminished" sensitivity (much more troubling than my years
> at school but much better than my youth -- which frequently saw
> my eyes swollen *shut*).
>
> I was pretty confident that I had largely "outgrown" them as an
> adult -- only to find them return with a vengeance when I moved
> here! :<
>
> [I tried a year of SLIT a couple of years back... not sure if
> that made a difference but SWMBO claims my reactions are much
> less severe than they've been, historically. <shrug> I guess
> SCIT isn't practical when you have year-round symptoms :< ]

I don't know what that is but meds have a limited effect when you have
allergies from a very young age on. One of the guys I mountain-biked
with had to stop and he'll rejoin us in winter. The last ride was really
miserable for him.

[Joerg]

Well, the CA legislature has just done exactly that. Democrats do not
care much about constitutions and laws and such anyhow, although in this
case the politicos have a point. We've got to conserve. We pull our
weight and have reduced by 30+ percent but people in many Bay Area
locations have done ... absolutely nothing.

> I think you can be fined for "wasting water" -- e.g., if irrigation
> water runs off your property onto the sidewalk, into the street, etc.
> But, I've never heard of anyone cited, thusly.
>

It's starting out here.

> [And, folks routinely drain their swimming pools into the roadways
> so how is that any different?]
>

We never do that.

>>> ... just
>>> a pricing structure that discourages "waste" (of course, that leaves
>>> it up to the purchaser to decide what constitutes "waste"!)
>>>
>>> Figure ~15,000 gallons of water annually getting dumped into the air
>>> *per* swamp cooler and that's a significant amount of water for a
>>> region that gets ~11 inches of rainfall annually!
>>
>> Ours doesn't even get close. Even if yours uses 50gals/day as your wrote
>> earlier: Assume 10h/day of usage and four months. That's only 2500
>> gallons. People don't run it in winter.
>
> 4 months * 30 days/month * 50G/day = 6000 gallons. Figures here
> are closer to 20,000 gallons (for a home without an alternative
> cooling strategy)! We have a *long* cooling season! (What we have
> of "Winter" is more like 5 days! :> Actually, I don't think it dropped
> *to* freezing this past Winter!)
>

But you said the whole monsoon time coolers can't work.

>>> (I think swimming pools are similarly frowned upon. I can't think
>>> of anyone who *uses* their pool -- unless their grandkids fly in
>>> from midwestville -- on even an *occasional* schedule yet they can
>>> lose up to an inch of water, daily, in the hot/dry months)
>>
>> We would never buy a house with pool again. Yeah, it's nice right now.
>> But all that maintenance.
>
> Yup. We see many neighbors with yards wasted on pools that sit idle.
> Cost, maintenance, liability, etc. I think they are now being seen
> NOT as "assets" but as "things to avoid" by many home purchasers!
>

We get a lot of Bay Area transplants moving here. Down there they had a
tiny house, no lot, no pool, no nothing, and sold it for close to a
million. Then they come up here and want everything, including that pool
they never had. A year later they think differently but now they've got
a house that is way too big for them, with a pool. And a boat they never
use. And a travel trailer they never use. And a massive Turbo-Diesel
truck they only drive to the super market.

> We'd talked of buying an "infinite pool" (none of the pools here
> are large enough for me to take a single *stroke* before crashing
> into the far end wall! Figure you need 20 ft just to kick off...).
> But, I want to work *less* around here, not more! Retirement
> should be for working on things you *enjoy*! :>
>

That's how I also see it. I want to have enough time for mountain biking
when I retire, and ideally some before.

BTW, just installed the new motor in the cooler, works again. Came with
a sheet that said 1 year warranty. Essick Air, the company behind the
Champion brand, told me (after "checking"!) that it's only 90 days and
I'll have to pay for motor #3. I will raise a stink because I feel
treated dishonestly. Anyhow, what brand is your cooler? I may have no
choice but I'd rather buy the bigger one from a more reputable company.

[rickman]

On 7/10/2014 5:21 PM, Joerg wrote:
> rickman wrote:
>> On 7/9/2014 2:46 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>> Steve Wilson wrote:
>>>> Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Swamp coolers also make for a nicer climate in the house. I easily get
>>>>> headaches when a regular A/C is running. Not so with the swamp cooler.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe mold in the A/C. Try getting an inexpensive Air Quality Monitor
>>>> like the Nikken:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=nikken+air+quality+monitor
>>>>
>>>> They work well and are very good for tracking down sources of
>>>> contamination that can cause headaches and other health problems.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It happens everywhere, including brand-new corporate offices. Sloshing
>>> partially used-up "air" around a building is simply not a very good idea
>>> yet that's what traditional A/C does. Same for central heat, which is
>>> why I feel much better since we installed wood and pellet stoves.
>>
>> Sometimes your poor thinking shines brightly. "Sloshing around" the air
>> by an AC is no different from a ceiling fan blowing. If you have
>> systems that bring in fresh air which help to alleviate your symptoms
>> then the problem is likely a house issue, not an AC issue.
>>
>
> Educate yourself on the (measly) requirements for fresh air intake in
> commercial A/C system. Then think about how that works in an evaporative
> cooling scenario. Maybe then you can figure it out, too.

Using words like "measly" doesn't replace figures.

That still doesn't answer the question of why you are sensitive and
others aren't or what it is you are sensitive to.

--

Rick

[Don Y]

On 7/12/2014 12:10 PM, Joerg wrote:

>> I'm pretty sure (despite Lamark) that being *in* that environment
>> and developing a tolerance to particular allergens would not, by
>> itself, be passed on to progeny.
>
> Not that, it's being exposed to stuff that makes one tougher. Kids that
> were babied way too much and kept away from any and all virus and
> bacteria risks can become much more sensitive.

That wouldn't account for my allergies from birth. And, we surely
didn't live in a "sterile" environment (e.g., the house *still*
isn't air conditioned, etc.)

> For example, I knew a lot of farming people while living in Europe and I
> know some here (though it's monst ranchers out here). I can't remember a
> single one of them being an allergy sufferer. City folk, plenty of them.
> Out here it hits many of the Silicon Valley transplants really hard.

I think a bigger part has to do with the *difference* in environmental
allergens in each location. They are "foreign" to your body -- never
encountered before, etc.

As I said, I've seen plenty of people "with no allergies" end up
unable to breathe/see when they confront the stuff we have floating
around, here!

And, some of the *quantities* (e.g.,pollen) are massive! For example,
the ground (cars, etc.) gets covered with a fine yellow powder at
one time of the year.

Recall, also, that we don't have lots of rain to wash the crud *out*
of the air.

>> [However, I can't claim that exposure during pregnancy wouldn't
>> provide some inbred immunity to the offspring; nor that exposure
>> after birth wouldn't help alleviate symptoms!]
>>
>> In my case, I apparently had severe allergies from birth (some of
>> the symptom remedies that have been recounted to me seem really
>> gruesome!). But, going of to "the big city" for college seemed
>> to leave them behind. Likewise, other relocations thereafter
>> saw "diminished" sensitivity (much more troubling than my years
>> at school but much better than my youth -- which frequently saw
>> my eyes swollen *shut*).
>>
>> I was pretty confident that I had largely "outgrown" them as an
>> adult -- only to find them return with a vengeance when I moved
>> here! :<
>>
>> [I tried a year of SLIT a couple of years back... not sure if
>> that made a difference but SWMBO claims my reactions are much
>> less severe than they've been, historically.<shrug> I guess
>> SCIT isn't practical when you have year-round symptoms :< ]
>
> I don't know what that is but meds have a limited effect when you have
> allergies from a very young age on. One of the guys I mountain-biked
> with had to stop and he'll rejoin us in winter. The last ride was really
> miserable for him.

{SubLingual, SubCutaneous} ImmunoTherapy

I believe each tries to "desensitize" your immune system to allergens
by exposing it to ever increasing doses of those allergens.

Thankfully, I don't seem to suffer from any *food* allergies. Those,
apparently, can be difficult to live with. Especially given how
little information is made available about how our foods are
prepared, processed, etc.

[A friend is severely allergic to tomatoes in all forms. I think he
ends up hospitalized once every year or two from a "chance encounter"
with some tomato product in a prepared foodstuff or a restaurant
meal -- despite being terribly vigilant about checking labels,
questioning the chef, etc.]

[Don Y]

>>>> The most common abusers are BUSINESSES that deliberately want to flaunt
>>>> their water use. There is no legislation prohibiting water use; ...
>>>
>>> There is here now.
>>
>> I think it is part of the state constitution that water access can't
>> be restricted -- hence the pricing disincentive.
>
> Well, the CA legislature has just done exactly that. Democrats do not
> care much about constitutions and laws and such anyhow, although in this
> case the politicos have a point. We've got to conserve. We pull our
> weight and have reduced by 30+ percent but people in many Bay Area
> locations have done ... absolutely nothing.

As I said, (I believe) there is something in our state constitution
that essentially prevents water being used as a "weapon" by denying
(or limiting) it's use to "whomever".

But, nothing prevents them from adjusting the pricing structure
such that it really discourages "(ab)use".

We are currently reevaluating whether to keep all of the citrus
trees given the cost of the water (and "sewer" -- despite the fact
that none of the irrigation water ends up being *processed*
through the sanitary sewer!).

Alternatively, we can try to harvest/store more. I've considered
building a ~2000G cistern for that purpose.

Simply relying on "city water" would be irresponsible. *Almost* as
bad as having a pool that loses several hundred gallons daily to
evaporation (at least we get good fruit out of the deal)

>> I think you can be fined for "wasting water" -- e.g., if irrigation
>> water runs off your property onto the sidewalk, into the street, etc.
>> But, I've never heard of anyone cited, thusly.
>
> It's starting out here.

I think it is intended to discourage businesses from "irresponsible"
watering policies. E.g., don't water during the daylight hours when 40%
is lost to evaporation; don't over-water such that water is running off
your property; etc.

>> [And, folks routinely drain their swimming pools into the roadways
>> so how is that any different?]
>
> We never do that.

How do you "change the water"? Or, do you rely on (chemical) "shock"
to try to bring things into control?

>>>> ... just
>>>> a pricing structure that discourages "waste" (of course, that leaves
>>>> it up to the purchaser to decide what constitutes "waste"!)
>>>>
>>>> Figure ~15,000 gallons of water annually getting dumped into the air
>>>> *per* swamp cooler and that's a significant amount of water for a
>>>> region that gets ~11 inches of rainfall annually!
>>>
>>> Ours doesn't even get close. Even if yours uses 50gals/day as your wrote
>>> earlier: Assume 10h/day of usage and four months. That's only 2500
>>> gallons. People don't run it in winter.
>>
>> 4 months * 30 days/month * 50G/day = 6000 gallons. Figures here
>> are closer to 20,000 gallons (for a home without an alternative
>> cooling strategy)! We have a *long* cooling season! (What we have
>> of "Winter" is more like 5 days! :> Actually, I don't think it dropped
>> *to* freezing this past Winter!)
>
> But you said the whole monsoon time coolers can't work.

The 50G figure comes from an average. People don't instrument the
water line to the cooler! :>

Despite it *not* working (effectively), there are many homes that
*only* have coolers. When Monsoon comes, they have two choices:
live with nothing *or* hope the cooler does *something*.

Over the years, Monsoon seems to be getting drier -- at least, total
precip (in our part of town) has decreased.

>>>> (I think swimming pools are similarly frowned upon. I can't think
>>>> of anyone who *uses* their pool -- unless their grandkids fly in
>>>> from midwestville -- on even an *occasional* schedule yet they can
>>>> lose up to an inch of water, daily, in the hot/dry months)
>>>
>>> We would never buy a house with pool again. Yeah, it's nice right now.
>>> But all that maintenance.
>>
>> Yup. We see many neighbors with yards wasted on pools that sit idle.
>> Cost, maintenance, liability, etc. I think they are now being seen
>> NOT as "assets" but as "things to avoid" by many home purchasers!
>
> We get a lot of Bay Area transplants moving here. Down there they had a
> tiny house, no lot, no pool, no nothing, and sold it for close to a

<grin> Yeah, I've friends who tried to coerce me into moving there.
Seeing their garage door closing *on* the sidewalk and a back "yard"
that wasn't big enough for a dog to sh*t -- let alone run around --
left me puzzled: "Why the hell would *anyone* want to live, here?"

<shrug> Different strokes.

> million. Then they come up here and want everything, including that pool
> they never had. A year later they think differently but now they've got
> a house that is way too big for them, with a pool. And a boat they never
> use. And a travel trailer they never use. And a massive Turbo-Diesel
> truck they only drive to the super market.

<grin> People get caught up in "things".

Many years ago, a friend recounted the adage:
"When you're young, you want things; when older, experiences"
I wholeheartedly concur! Experiences take far less space to
"warehouse"; you can carry them with you *everywhere*; they
seldom break and need repair; etc.

>> We'd talked of buying an "infinite pool" (none of the pools here
>> are large enough for me to take a single *stroke* before crashing
>> into the far end wall! Figure you need 20 ft just to kick off...).
>> But, I want to work *less* around here, not more! Retirement
>> should be for working on things you *enjoy*! :>
>
> That's how I also see it. I want to have enough time for mountain biking
> when I retire, and ideally some before.

In my case, there are projects that *I* want to see to completion
now that I have the skills, experience and re$ource$ to undertake
them. I don't want to have to worry about how much my possessions
"own me".

> BTW, just installed the new motor in the cooler, works again. Came with
> a sheet that said 1 year warranty. Essick Air, the company behind the
> Champion brand, told me (after "checking"!) that it's only 90 days and
> I'll have to pay for motor #3. I will raise a stink because I feel
> treated dishonestly. Anyhow, what brand is your cooler? I may have no
> choice but I'd rather buy the bigger one from a more reputable company.

I'm pretty sure ours is a MasterCool (though the name "Adobe Air"
sticks in my mind). But, ours is intended for direct tie in to
the HVAC ductwork (downdraft so really only practical to mount
on the roof). I am not sure what other offerings they have
(though I'm sure they also have side-vented... unsure about window
units).

The pad is rather expensive ($100+) but lasts many years (5+). I
learned from experience that "clone" pads are not as good and would
never pursue that false economy (you don't really save any serious
money to make it worthwhile).

Good Luck with your motor!

[mrob...@att.net]

Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> mrob...@att.net wrote:
>
>> Since seeing that, I try to hose [my A/C condenser] out every year.

>
> And straighten out the fins where li'l Joey's basketball hit it.

Most of the central air condensers I have seen are fairly well protected
against that kind of thing. For some reason, window air conditioners
are not; I've had to straighten out the fins on a few of those.

> Like inductive train collision avoidance. That's when I lost my last
> sliver of faith in engineering licensure because it was licensed
> engineers who signed off on rail systems that are severely subpar
> with what was state-of-the-art in Europe more than half a century ago.

On one hand, Europe was (and is) denser and *had* to be better at
railroads. On the other hand, there was a *lot* of train traffic in the
US in at least the first half of the century.

Railroads seem to like "we've always done it this way" and NIH. Several
years ago I worked with a mechanical engineer who had consulted for a
railroad. A piece of their equipment kept breaking and they couldn't
fix it; he showed them that the design was such that it would *always*
break in one particular spot, no matter how much more metal they welded
on there. He also proposed the crazy idea of redesigning that piece
(using math and everything!) to take the weak spot away, but they were
highly suspicious of this plan.

The US freight railroads are currently working to install "Positive
Train Control", at least on their busier lines. At least two or three
companies in Europe already have the hardware to do this sitting on the
shelf. It would have been easy to buy 10 from each company, put them on
trains, run them for a year, and then buy 1000 of the one that worked
best. So clearly, having a completely new system designed (in the US)
was the right thing to do.

The line that runs near my house is a single track with three trains per
day. It has no signals and runs on train orders - the dispatcher gives
the engineer authority to occupy a certain stretch of track and that's
it. If the engineer *does* see another train coming, he hits the brakes
and maybe jumps... that's it.

If you talk to people involved in aviation, you will eventually hear the
phrase "big sky theory" - basically, since only 0.000mumble% of the
available airspace has a plane in it at any given time, planes can be
driven in all kinds of wrong directions without causing problems. There
is still a lot of navigation and collision-avoidance hardware, but "big
sky" is still there as a backup. I suspect that some of the railroad
people think the same way.

>> There's always 162.x MHz, narrowband FM... if you haven't listened
>> in a while, they've gotten an improved Mr. Roboto that is easier to
>> hear. :)
>
> I'd rather listen to Ms.Roboto :-)

The ones around here all seem to employ Mr. Roboto, but I have heard
Ms. from time to time. Since it's a federal operation, it seems
logical that there will be an equal number of stations where Ms. is the
main voice.

Matt Roberds

[Joerg]

mrob...@att.net wrote:
> Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> mrob...@att.net wrote:
>>
>>> Since seeing that, I try to hose [my A/C condenser] out every year.
>> And straighten out the fins where li'l Joey's basketball hit it.
>
> Most of the central air condensers I have seen are fairly well protected
> against that kind of thing. For some reason, window air conditioners
> are not; I've had to straighten out the fins on a few of those.
>

Most of the ones I know aren't protected. Some have a chintzy plastic
shroud over it but that is no match for a soccer ball or even a basketball.

>> Like inductive train collision avoidance. That's when I lost my last
>> sliver of faith in engineering licensure because it was licensed
>> engineers who signed off on rail systems that are severely subpar
>> with what was state-of-the-art in Europe more than half a century ago.
>
> On one hand, Europe was (and is) denser and *had* to be better at
> railroads. On the other hand, there was a *lot* of train traffic in the
> US in at least the first half of the century.
>
> Railroads seem to like "we've always done it this way" and NIH. Several
> years ago I worked with a mechanical engineer who had consulted for a
> railroad. A piece of their equipment kept breaking and they couldn't
> fix it; he showed them that the design was such that it would *always*
> break in one particular spot, no matter how much more metal they welded
> on there. He also proposed the crazy idea of redesigning that piece
> (using math and everything!) to take the weak spot away, but they were
> highly suspicious of this plan.
>

Now you know why I do not believe platitudes such has "to safeguard the
safety of the public" in license laws.

> The US freight railroads are currently working to install "Positive
> Train Control", at least on their busier lines. At least two or three
> companies in Europe already have the hardware to do this sitting on the
> shelf. It would have been easy to buy 10 from each company, put them on
> trains, run them for a year, and then buy 1000 of the one that worked
> best. So clearly, having a completely new system designed (in the US)
> was the right thing to do.
>

Or just put it in. There is no need to test, this stuff runs since
decades in Europe. What's the point in testing something that has
already been tested ad nauseam?

> The line that runs near my house is a single track with three trains per
> day. It has no signals and runs on train orders - the dispatcher gives
> the engineer authority to occupy a certain stretch of track and that's
> it. If the engineer *does* see another train coming, he hits the brakes
> and maybe jumps... that's it.
>

That's a very sick state of affairs.

> If you talk to people involved in aviation, you will eventually hear the
> phrase "big sky theory" - basically, since only 0.000mumble% of the
> available airspace has a plane in it at any given time, planes can be
> driven in all kinds of wrong directions without causing problems. There
> is still a lot of navigation and collision-avoidance hardware, but "big
> sky" is still there as a backup. I suspect that some of the railroad
> people think the same way.
>

One of my fields is aerospace electronics. Things are very different
there versus railroads. For example, before they allowed a tighter
vertical spacing they made sure that the equipment was 110% up to par
for that.

>>> There's always 162.x MHz, narrowband FM... if you haven't listened
>>> in a while, they've gotten an improved Mr. Roboto that is easier to
>>> hear. :)
>> I'd rather listen to Ms.Roboto :-)
>
> The ones around here all seem to employ Mr. Roboto, but I have heard
> Ms. from time to time. Since it's a federal operation, it seems
> logical that there will be an equal number of stations where Ms. is the
> main voice.
>

Oh yeah, otherwise some predatory lawywer would sue :-)

[Joerg]

Don Y wrote:
> On 7/12/2014 12:10 PM, Joerg wrote:
>
>>> I'm pretty sure (despite Lamark) that being *in* that environment
>>> and developing a tolerance to particular allergens would not, by
>>> itself, be passed on to progeny.
>>
>> Not that, it's being exposed to stuff that makes one tougher. Kids that
>> were babied way too much and kept away from any and all virus and
>> bacteria risks can become much more sensitive.
>
> That wouldn't account for my allergies from birth. And, we surely
> didn't live in a "sterile" environment (e.g., the house *still*
> isn't air conditioned, etc.)
>

Yes, from birth is different.

>> For example, I knew a lot of farming people while living in Europe and I
>> know some here (though it's monst ranchers out here). I can't remember a
>> single one of them being an allergy sufferer. City folk, plenty of them.
>> Out here it hits many of the Silicon Valley transplants really hard.
>
> I think a bigger part has to do with the *difference* in environmental
> allergens in each location. They are "foreign" to your body -- never
> encountered before, etc.
>
> As I said, I've seen plenty of people "with no allergies" end up
> unable to breathe/see when they confront the stuff we have floating
> around, here!
>

So did I but most came from affluent families and lived a fairly
protected life as kids.

> And, some of the *quantities* (e.g.,pollen) are massive! For example,
> the ground (cars, etc.) gets covered with a fine yellow powder at
> one time of the year.
>

Same here. Sometimes you see a major yellow plume rising from a forest
after a large wind gust. Yesterday I lived an allergy sufferers
nightmare but since I don't have allergies it wasn't an issue for me. I
switched leader positions with another mountain biker and when I was
behind him and we rode through grasses at high speed I was constantly in
a plume of dust, pollen and who knows what.

> Recall, also, that we don't have lots of rain to wash the crud *out*
> of the air.
>

Same here, zero rain from April to September.

>>> [However, I can't claim that exposure during pregnancy wouldn't
>>> provide some inbred immunity to the offspring; nor that exposure
>>> after birth wouldn't help alleviate symptoms!]
>>>
>>> In my case, I apparently had severe allergies from birth (some of
>>> the symptom remedies that have been recounted to me seem really
>>> gruesome!). But, going of to "the big city" for college seemed
>>> to leave them behind. Likewise, other relocations thereafter
>>> saw "diminished" sensitivity (much more troubling than my years
>>> at school but much better than my youth -- which frequently saw
>>> my eyes swollen *shut*).
>>>
>>> I was pretty confident that I had largely "outgrown" them as an
>>> adult -- only to find them return with a vengeance when I moved
>>> here! :<
>>>
>>> [I tried a year of SLIT a couple of years back... not sure if
>>> that made a difference but SWMBO claims my reactions are much
>>> less severe than they've been, historically.<shrug> I guess
>>> SCIT isn't practical when you have year-round symptoms :< ]
>>
>> I don't know what that is but meds have a limited effect when you have
>> allergies from a very young age on. One of the guys I mountain-biked
>> with had to stop and he'll rejoin us in winter. The last ride was really
>> miserable for him.
>
> {SubLingual, SubCutaneous} ImmunoTherapy
>
> I believe each tries to "desensitize" your immune system to allergens
> by exposing it to ever increasing doses of those allergens.
>

Ah, yes. Friends back in school went through that but AFAIR it never
really worked in the long run.

> Thankfully, I don't seem to suffer from any *food* allergies. Those,
> apparently, can be difficult to live with. Especially given how
> little information is made available about how our foods are
> prepared, processed, etc.
>
> [A friend is severely allergic to tomatoes in all forms. I think he
> ends up hospitalized once every year or two from a "chance encounter"
> with some tomato product in a prepared foodstuff or a restaurant
> meal -- despite being terribly vigilant about checking labels,
> questioning the chef, etc.]

Did he live a fairly sterile city life as a child?

[Joerg]

Don Y wrote:
>>>>> The most common abusers are BUSINESSES that deliberately want to
>>>>> flaunt
>>>>> their water use. There is no legislation prohibiting water use; ...
>>>>
>>>> There is here now.
>>>
>>> I think it is part of the state constitution that water access can't
>>> be restricted -- hence the pricing disincentive.
>>
>> Well, the CA legislature has just done exactly that. Democrats do not
>> care much about constitutions and laws and such anyhow, although in this
>> case the politicos have a point. We've got to conserve. We pull our
>> weight and have reduced by 30+ percent but people in many Bay Area
>> locations have done ... absolutely nothing.
>
> As I said, (I believe) there is something in our state constitution
> that essentially prevents water being used as a "weapon" by denying
> (or limiting) it's use to "whomever".
>

Out here (California), sadly water is used as a major political power
play. Big fat salaries, big fat pensions, the usual.

> But, nothing prevents them from adjusting the pricing structure
> such that it really discourages "(ab)use".
>
> We are currently reevaluating whether to keep all of the citrus
> trees given the cost of the water (and "sewer" -- despite the fact
> that none of the irrigation water ends up being *processed*
> through the sanitary sewer!).
>

Yeah, this whole sewer tax is legalized extortion.

> Alternatively, we can try to harvest/store more. I've considered
> building a ~2000G cistern for that purpose.
>
> Simply relying on "city water" would be irresponsible. *Almost* as
> bad as having a pool that loses several hundred gallons daily to
> evaporation (at least we get good fruit out of the deal)
>

Ours doesn't lose hundreds of gallons. But I'd never buy a house with a
pool again. It just doesn't make sense for just two adults in the family.

>>> I think you can be fined for "wasting water" -- e.g., if irrigation
>>> water runs off your property onto the sidewalk, into the street, etc.
>>> But, I've never heard of anyone cited, thusly.
>>
>> It's starting out here.
>
> I think it is intended to discourage businesses from "irresponsible"
> watering policies. E.g., don't water during the daylight hours when 40%
> is lost to evaporation; don't over-water such that water is running off
> your property; etc.
>
>>> [And, folks routinely drain their swimming pools into the roadways
>>> so how is that any different?]
>>
>> We never do that.
>

> How do you "change the water"? ...


We don't.


. ... Or, do you rely on (chemical) "shock"

> to try to bring things into control?
>

Yep. It's time again this coming weekend.

>>>>> ... just
>>>>> a pricing structure that discourages "waste" (of course, that leaves
>>>>> it up to the purchaser to decide what constitutes "waste"!)
>>>>>
>>>>> Figure ~15,000 gallons of water annually getting dumped into the air
>>>>> *per* swamp cooler and that's a significant amount of water for a
>>>>> region that gets ~11 inches of rainfall annually!
>>>>
>>>> Ours doesn't even get close. Even if yours uses 50gals/day as your
>>>> wrote
>>>> earlier: Assume 10h/day of usage and four months. That's only 2500
>>>> gallons. People don't run it in winter.
>>>
>>> 4 months * 30 days/month * 50G/day = 6000 gallons. Figures here
>>> are closer to 20,000 gallons (for a home without an alternative
>>> cooling strategy)! We have a *long* cooling season! (What we have
>>> of "Winter" is more like 5 days! :> Actually, I don't think it dropped
>>> *to* freezing this past Winter!)
>>
>> But you said the whole monsoon time coolers can't work.
>
> The 50G figure comes from an average. People don't instrument the
> water line to the cooler! :>
>

You don't need to. All it takes is comparing water bills from the years
before installing the cooler to the ones after and in our case it really
wasn't much.

> Despite it *not* working (effectively), there are many homes that
> *only* have coolers. When Monsoon comes, they have two choices:
> live with nothing *or* hope the cooler does *something*.
>
> Over the years, Monsoon seems to be getting drier -- at least, total
> precip (in our part of town) has decreased.
>

Today is one of those not so good days. Humidity 28% and temps will peak
around 106F per forecast. That's when having a pool is really nice.

The problem is that they shut down nuclear stations left and right
without replacing anything. Solar installation rules are very screwed up
so that's not happening as much as it could. Switch people to regular
A/C on a day like this and ... beeep ... tchk ... power is gone.

>>>>> (I think swimming pools are similarly frowned upon. I can't think
>>>>> of anyone who *uses* their pool -- unless their grandkids fly in
>>>>> from midwestville -- on even an *occasional* schedule yet they can
>>>>> lose up to an inch of water, daily, in the hot/dry months)
>>>>
>>>> We would never buy a house with pool again. Yeah, it's nice right now.
>>>> But all that maintenance.
>>>
>>> Yup. We see many neighbors with yards wasted on pools that sit idle.
>>> Cost, maintenance, liability, etc. I think they are now being seen
>>> NOT as "assets" but as "things to avoid" by many home purchasers!
>>
>> We get a lot of Bay Area transplants moving here. Down there they had a
>> tiny house, no lot, no pool, no nothing, and sold it for close to a
>
> <grin> Yeah, I've friends who tried to coerce me into moving there.

Don't. It's terrible, IMHO.

> Seeing their garage door closing *on* the sidewalk and a back "yard"
> that wasn't big enough for a dog to sh*t -- let alone run around --
> left me puzzled: "Why the hell would *anyone* want to live, here?"
>

Exactly.

> <shrug> Different strokes.
>
>> million. Then they come up here and want everything, including that pool
>> they never had. A year later they think differently but now they've got
>> a house that is way too big for them, with a pool. And a boat they never
>> use. And a travel trailer they never use. And a massive Turbo-Diesel
>> truck they only drive to the super market.
>
> <grin> People get caught up in "things".
>
> Many years ago, a friend recounted the adage:
> "When you're young, you want things; when older, experiences"
> I wholeheartedly concur! Experiences take far less space to
> "warehouse"; you can carry them with you *everywhere*; they
> seldom break and need repair; etc.
>

It does break and then can't be repaired :-(

One of the volunteer things we do is elderly visits with our therapy
dogs. Mostly people with serious Alzheimer's.

[...]

>> BTW, just installed the new motor in the cooler, works again. Came with
>> a sheet that said 1 year warranty. Essick Air, the company behind the
>> Champion brand, told me (after "checking"!) that it's only 90 days and
>> I'll have to pay for motor #3. I will raise a stink because I feel
>> treated dishonestly. Anyhow, what brand is your cooler? I may have no
>> choice but I'd rather buy the bigger one from a more reputable company.
>

> I'm pretty sure ours is a MasterCool ...


Since that showed up on Essick's site I guess they swallowed them :-(

They may have swallowed nearly all of them and have a de facto monopoly.
Which may explain their shoddy customer service.


> ... (though the name "Adobe Air"

> sticks in my mind). But, ours is intended for direct tie in to
> the HVAC ductwork (downdraft so really only practical to mount
> on the roof). I am not sure what other offerings they have
> (though I'm sure they also have side-vented... unsure about window
> units).
>

I looked at a friend's cooler yesterday and it is Adobe Air. It has the
right size, aspen pads and all that. But I can't find new ones anywhere.

> The pad is rather expensive ($100+) but lasts many years (5+). I
> learned from experience that "clone" pads are not as good and would
> never pursue that false economy (you don't really save any serious
> money to make it worthwhile).
>
> Good Luck with your motor!

I am not holding my breath. The quality of this stuff is so lousy.

[Joerg]

Here they are:

http://www.tsi.com/uploadedFiles/Product_Information/Literature/Application_Notes/ti-138.pdf

In my book 20cfm/person is measly.

As I said above, I am by far not the only one. "Standards" such as
20cfm/person fresh air as recommended for office spaces are terrible. We
are getting about 3000cfm right now, for two people and two dogs. That's
25 times the standard. It doesn't have to be this much but I sure feel
much better in my office than in just about any commercial building.
Except the ones like Home Depot, where they keep the doors open and push
in massive amounts of air from evaporative coolers.

[Don Y]

On 7/14/2014 9:16 AM, Joerg wrote:
> Don Y wrote:
>> On 7/12/2014 12:10 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>
>>>> I'm pretty sure (despite Lamark) that being *in* that environment
>>>> and developing a tolerance to particular allergens would not, by
>>>> itself, be passed on to progeny.
>>>
>>> Not that, it's being exposed to stuff that makes one tougher. Kids that
>>> were babied way too much and kept away from any and all virus and
>>> bacteria risks can become much more sensitive.
>>
>> That wouldn't account for my allergies from birth. And, we surely
>> didn't live in a "sterile" environment (e.g., the house *still*
>> isn't air conditioned, etc.)
>
> Yes, from birth is different.

I can't tell you how much I am looking forward to the other "problems"
that tend to be associated with bad time allergies -- NOT!

>>> For example, I knew a lot of farming people while living in Europe and I
>>> know some here (though it's monst ranchers out here). I can't remember a
>>> single one of them being an allergy sufferer. City folk, plenty of them.
>>> Out here it hits many of the Silicon Valley transplants really hard.
>>
>> I think a bigger part has to do with the *difference* in environmental
>> allergens in each location. They are "foreign" to your body -- never
>> encountered before, etc.
>>
>> As I said, I've seen plenty of people "with no allergies" end up
>> unable to breathe/see when they confront the stuff we have floating
>> around, here!
>
> So did I but most came from affluent families and lived a fairly
> protected life as kids.

Dunno. I don't usually quiz people on their development environs! :>

In my case, grew up in the country (e.g., my High School was in the
middle of a corn field; no air conditioning so windows always open).
I attributed the (apparent) "loss" of allergies when I went off to
school to be from the (relative) lack of flora -- city life (where
the biggest issue was the *grit* that would settle on your counters
from car exhaust).

Moving to the Midwest therafter allowed *some* of my sensitivity to
return. However, they were also different species that, perhaps,
didn't irritate as much? (dunno, never had a scratch tested when
I was young). Denver was much better (though obviously much more
arid so less flora).

Here, it's just been a year-round annoyance. :<

>> And, some of the *quantities* (e.g.,pollen) are massive! For example,
>> the ground (cars, etc.) gets covered with a fine yellow powder at
>> one time of the year.
>
> Same here. Sometimes you see a major yellow plume rising from a forest
> after a large wind gust. Yesterday I lived an allergy sufferers
> nightmare but since I don't have allergies it wasn't an issue for me. I
> switched leader positions with another mountain biker and when I was
> behind him and we rode through grasses at high speed I was constantly in
> a plume of dust, pollen and who knows what.

I was sitting gazing out the living room window one day and saw a little
puff of yellow "smoke" out of the corner of my eye. Redirecting my
gaze, I was able to see several more over the course of several minutes.
Pollen being "explosively" released from the Mulberry tree outside the
window!

The tree was *gone* within the week!

But, I didn't make the mental leap to realize that this was happening
with *many* of the plants in the yard and in surrounding yards! So,
while the Mulberry was a terrible offender, damn near everything will
be a problem to some extent!

(When the citrus are in bloom, I daren't go outside! The air is thick
with a sweet smell of orange/lemon/lime blossoms that provides ample
warning for me: "Stay Away!" :< )

>>>> [I tried a year of SLIT a couple of years back... not sure if
>>>> that made a difference but SWMBO claims my reactions are much
>>>> less severe than they've been, historically.<shrug> I guess
>>>> SCIT isn't practical when you have year-round symptoms :< ]
>>>
>>> I don't know what that is but meds have a limited effect when you have
>>> allergies from a very young age on. One of the guys I mountain-biked
>>> with had to stop and he'll rejoin us in winter. The last ride was really
>>> miserable for him.
>>
>> {SubLingual, SubCutaneous} ImmunoTherapy
>>
>> I believe each tries to "desensitize" your immune system to allergens
>> by exposing it to ever increasing doses of those allergens.
>
> Ah, yes. Friends back in school went through that but AFAIR it never
> really worked in the long run.

I think SCIT has some serious downside risks. And, injections all
year round is probably rolling the dice too often, for that!

SLIT was relatively side-effect free. Not happy with the cost but
SWMBO claims my symptoms are much improved. At least I don't
wake up *choking*!

>> [A friend is severely allergic to tomatoes in all forms. I think he
>> ends up hospitalized once every year or two from a "chance encounter"
>> with some tomato product in a prepared foodstuff or a restaurant
>> meal -- despite being terribly vigilant about checking labels,
>> questioning the chef, etc.]
>
> Did he live a fairly sterile city life as a child?

I don't think so. IIRC, he was a military kid so probably not
treated to the best of housing, etc. (no idea how often relocated).

I just think its yet another biological system that can "be broken"
in some way. Thankfully, (in my case) it's not life threatening.

[OTOH, in *his* case, it *is*! The idea of having to carry an
epi-pen 24/7/365 has got to be scary! "Will this meal at this
NEW restaurant end in a bad way?" For that reason, he prepares
almost all of his own food, relies on lots of spices that most
folks wouldn't typically use (in those quantities), etc. He's
OVERLY generous so we're always "forced" to try whatever he's
decided to make a batch of, today :-/ Disappointing that I can't
reciprocate with a nice, home-made lasagna or some fresh cavatelli
bolognese, etc.]

[Don Y]

Hi Joerg,

On 7/14/2014 9:41 AM, Joerg wrote:

[elided]

>>>> [And, folks routinely drain their swimming pools into the roadways
>>>> so how is that any different?]
>>>
>>> We never do that.
>>
>> How do you "change the water"? ...
>
> We don't.

Ah. Here, apparently, there comes a point where you can't bring the
water chemistry back into control without replacing a fair bit of it.
Probably accumulation of minerals (we have hard water -- about 15 gpg).
Given that water is constantly being added and those solids slowly
accumulating (as the water "boils off"), it seems the only remedy is
to try to flush some of that crud and start over.

At least, that's my GUESS as to why we so often see water running in
the street with no clouds in the sky! :<

>
> .. ... Or, do you rely on (chemical) "shock"

>> to try to bring things into control?
>
> Yep. It's time again this coming weekend.

Apparently, there is a limit as to how much you can do this (here)?

>> Despite it *not* working (effectively), there are many homes that
>> *only* have coolers. When Monsoon comes, they have two choices:
>> live with nothing *or* hope the cooler does *something*.
>>
>> Over the years, Monsoon seems to be getting drier -- at least, total
>> precip (in our part of town) has decreased.
>
> Today is one of those not so good days. Humidity 28% and temps will peak
> around 106F per forecast. That's when having a pool is really nice.
>
> The problem is that they shut down nuclear stations left and right
> without replacing anything. Solar installation rules are very screwed up
> so that's not happening as much as it could. Switch people to regular
> A/C on a day like this and ... beeep ... tchk ... power is gone.

We have (surprisingly) a fair bit of residential solar, here.
Businesses, of course, with longer horizons have also gone a
ways to embracing it. Many have covered parking in their
parking lots and have tiled these covers with panels.

Each Monsoon, I watch to see when a neighbor's large installation
will fall victim to a microburst (the high end of the array is
at least 10 ft above the roof). Of course, it faces south to
watch the Sun. This makes it ripe for the intense downdrafts
that come from the *north* (typically felling many small and
large trees each season)

>>> We get a lot of Bay Area transplants moving here. Down there they had a
>>> tiny house, no lot, no pool, no nothing, and sold it for close to a
>>
>> <grin> Yeah, I've friends who tried to coerce me into moving there.
>
> Don't. It's terrible, IMHO.

<shrug> Probably the next move will be someplace cooler. And, less
"bright".

>>> BTW, just installed the new motor in the cooler, works again. Came with
>>> a sheet that said 1 year warranty. Essick Air, the company behind the
>>> Champion brand, told me (after "checking"!) that it's only 90 days and
>>> I'll have to pay for motor #3. I will raise a stink because I feel
>>> treated dishonestly. Anyhow, what brand is your cooler? I may have no
>>> choice but I'd rather buy the bigger one from a more reputable company.
>>
>> I'm pretty sure ours is a MasterCool ...
>
> Since that showed up on Essick's site I guess they swallowed them :-(

Ah. Dunno as I've not had to even *look* at the cooler for several
years. Aside from the replacement pad, I can't really imagine needing
anything "genuine" that I couldn't find stocked here, somewhere.

> They may have swallowed nearly all of them and have a de facto monopoly.
> Which may explain their shoddy customer service.
>
>> ... (though the name "Adobe Air"
>> sticks in my mind). But, ours is intended for direct tie in to
>> the HVAC ductwork (downdraft so really only practical to mount
>> on the roof). I am not sure what other offerings they have
>> (though I'm sure they also have side-vented... unsure about window
>> units).
>
> I looked at a friend's cooler yesterday and it is Adobe Air. It has the
> right size, aspen pads and all that. But I can't find new ones anywhere.
>
>> The pad is rather expensive ($100+) but lasts many years (5+). I
>> learned from experience that "clone" pads are not as good and would
>> never pursue that false economy (you don't really save any serious
>> money to make it worthwhile).
>>
>> Good Luck with your motor!
>
> I am not holding my breath. The quality of this stuff is so lousy.

But, that is true of many (most?) things, nowadays. People want
"inexpensive". In most cases, that is synonymous with "cheap"
(as in "shoddy").

It is impractical (cost and convenience) for most folks to fix things
(or *have* them fixed). So, the "replace" remedy makes the most sense
for The Masses.

Neighbor's AC compressor bit the shed last week. Rather than repair
the compressor -- or, replace the unit -- he replaced his entire
HVAC system (including "A" coil *and* furnace!). And how is that an
effective solution?

<shrug>

[Joerg]

Don Y wrote:
> Hi Joerg,
>
> On 7/14/2014 9:41 AM, Joerg wrote:
>
> [elided]
>
>>>>> [And, folks routinely drain their swimming pools into the roadways
>>>>> so how is that any different?]
>>>>
>>>> We never do that.
>>>
>>> How do you "change the water"? ...
>>
>> We don't.
>
> Ah. Here, apparently, there comes a point where you can't bring the
> water chemistry back into control without replacing a fair bit of it.
> Probably accumulation of minerals (we have hard water -- about 15 gpg).
> Given that water is constantly being added and those solids slowly
> accumulating (as the water "boils off"), it seems the only remedy is
> to try to flush some of that crud and start over.
>
> At least, that's my GUESS as to why we so often see water running in
> the street with no clouds in the sky! :<
>

One reason why the water stays clean and free of soilds might be that we
have a DE filter.

>>
>> .. ... Or, do you rely on (chemical) "shock"
>>> to try to bring things into control?
>>
>> Yep. It's time again this coming weekend.
>
> Apparently, there is a limit as to how much you can do this (here)?
>

Especially for people with sand filters I assume.

>>> Despite it *not* working (effectively), there are many homes that
>>> *only* have coolers. When Monsoon comes, they have two choices:
>>> live with nothing *or* hope the cooler does *something*.
>>>
>>> Over the years, Monsoon seems to be getting drier -- at least, total
>>> precip (in our part of town) has decreased.
>>
>> Today is one of those not so good days. Humidity 28% and temps will peak
>> around 106F per forecast. That's when having a pool is really nice.
>>
>> The problem is that they shut down nuclear stations left and right
>> without replacing anything. Solar installation rules are very screwed up
>> so that's not happening as much as it could. Switch people to regular
>> A/C on a day like this and ... beeep ... tchk ... power is gone.
>
> We have (surprisingly) a fair bit of residential solar, here.
> Businesses, of course, with longer horizons have also gone a
> ways to embracing it. Many have covered parking in their
> parking lots and have tiled these covers with panels.
>

Same here because of subsidies. But body politicus made a major mistake.
Initially there was zero reimbursement for excess power fed into the
grid. Now it is 4c/kWh or so, a joke. The result is this:

People like us could easily generate 8-10kW at peak times which is
exactly when power is sorely needed and spot market prices skyrocket.
Yet we try to be eco-friendly and use so little electricity that we
would never recoup the investment into solar. So we have no solar.

> Each Monsoon, I watch to see when a neighbor's large installation
> will fall victim to a microburst (the high end of the array is
> at least 10 ft above the roof). Of course, it faces south to
> watch the Sun. This makes it ripe for the intense downdrafts
> that come from the *north* (typically felling many small and
> large trees each season)
>
>>>> We get a lot of Bay Area transplants moving here. Down there they had a
>>>> tiny house, no lot, no pool, no nothing, and sold it for close to a
>>>
>>> <grin> Yeah, I've friends who tried to coerce me into moving there.
>>
>> Don't. It's terrible, IMHO.
>
> <shrug> Probably the next move will be someplace cooler. And, less
> "bright".

We'd like a place where the word winter doesn't exist in the vocabulary.

[...]

>> They may have swallowed nearly all of them and have a de facto monopoly.
>> Which may explain their shoddy customer service.
>>
>>> ... (though the name "Adobe Air"
>>> sticks in my mind). But, ours is intended for direct tie in to
>>> the HVAC ductwork (downdraft so really only practical to mount
>>> on the roof). I am not sure what other offerings they have
>>> (though I'm sure they also have side-vented... unsure about window
>>> units).
>>
>> I looked at a friend's cooler yesterday and it is Adobe Air. It has the
>> right size, aspen pads and all that. But I can't find new ones anywhere.
>>
>>> The pad is rather expensive ($100+) but lasts many years (5+). I
>>> learned from experience that "clone" pads are not as good and would
>>> never pursue that false economy (you don't really save any serious
>>> money to make it worthwhile).
>>>
>>> Good Luck with your motor!
>>
>> I am not holding my breath. The quality of this stuff is so lousy.
>
> But, that is true of many (most?) things, nowadays. People want
> "inexpensive". In most cases, that is synonymous with "cheap"
> (as in "shoddy").
>

But telling someone that the warranty is 90 days and in reality it is a
year is not ethical business behavior. Most people call that a lie.

Essick Air should have replaced at least the 2nd failed motor for free
and they didn't.

> It is impractical (cost and convenience) for most folks to fix things
> (or *have* them fixed). So, the "replace" remedy makes the most sense
> for The Masses.
>

The result is that "Buy American" has no meaning for people anymore. It
is often better to buy cheap stuff and just keep replacing it all the time.

Sometimes imported gear becomes better. For example, I am very pleased
with the two Japanese cars we have. The quality is so much better than
on domestic ones we looked at. Mine is now 17 years old and not even a
light bulb has dared to burn out.

> Neighbor's AC compressor bit the shed last week. Rather than repair
> the compressor -- or, replace the unit -- he replaced his entire
> HVAC system (including "A" coil *and* furnace!). And how is that an
> effective solution?
>

Sometimes it is financially the best solution. Get the cheapest
replacement available and run it until it croaks :-(

[josephkk]

On Mon, 14 Jul 2014 09:16:03 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>
>> {SubLingual, SubCutaneous} ImmunoTherapy
>>
>> I believe each tries to "desensitize" your immune system to allergens
>> by exposing it to ever increasing doses of those allergens.
>>
>
>Ah, yes. Friends back in school went through that but AFAIR it never
>really worked in the long run.
>
>
>> Thankfully, I don't seem to suffer from any *food* allergies. Those,
>> apparently, can be difficult to live with. Especially given how
>> little information is made available about how our foods are
>> prepared, processed, etc.
>>
>> [A friend is severely allergic to tomatoes in all forms. I think he
>> ends up hospitalized once every year or two from a "chance encounter"
>> with some tomato product in a prepared foodstuff or a restaurant
>> meal -- despite being terribly vigilant about checking labels,
>> questioning the chef, etc.]
>
>
>Did he live a fairly sterile city life as a child?

A city sterile?? Nor is suburbia. Just a different collection of
allergens.

?-)

[Joerg]

Not much though. There's some rose bushes, hedges, lawns, leafy tree.
Out here in the country we have chapparal and all sort of plants, some
of which can spew an impressive amount of pollen right into your face
while riding a bike. All it takes is one local wind gust or another
rider. Happens to me all the time. Sometimes on weekends I come home and
much of my body is mustard-colored.

Some stuff out there has such a pungent smell right now that I'd
consider it more of a stench.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Tue, 15 Jul 2014 07:48:39 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

The pine pollen around here lasts only a couple of weeks (usually done
by early April) but when it's falling, there isn't a black car to be
found. It was even worse in Alabama.

[Joerg]

But I won't complain. I just saw the other side of so much nature. Came
back from a meeting on my mountain bike, took a trail, found a major
swath of blackberry bushes and had my fill, then a couple miles later
got to pet a 2-week old horse which to my surprise isn't scared of
mountain bikers at all. It doesn't get any better than that.