Well... The men of science are gonna be angry - Natural immunity is gaining traction

[Brent Locher]

I will be darned. More antivaxxers and now they are gaining traction in a hospital. WOW. They are actually going to let unvaccinated folks continue to work in the hospitals. Burn them Down! How can anti science be gaining so much traction.....take your vaccine or be labeled as anti-science...OK

Some people have been suggesting that natural immunity should be looked at and all our resident men of science just want to lump everyone who does not take the vaccination into the same category (basically - "unvaccinated/unwashed and eligible for de-ctizenship")



https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2021/09/09/spectrum-health-workers-can-use-natural-immunity-vaccine-mandate-exemption/8262491002/

[Anthony William Sloman]

Trust Brent Locher to read more into the report than it actually says. Clearly, getting infected with Covid-19 and surviving involves developing an immmunity to the virus.

What he seems to miss is that that immunity will be to the actual strain that did the infection. The Covid-19 vaccine used in the west - Pfzer, Moderna, Astra-Zeneca and so on, use a version of the highly conserved Covid-19 spike protein as their antigen, and provoke antibodies to that that are more likely to work against new strains of the virus than antibodies to a larger chunk of the Covid-19 capsule. This has been pointed out to him at regular intervals, but the idea does seem to be too complicated for him to process - he's rather like Flyguy in this respect.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

[John Doe]

"the concepts "male" and "female" are essentially social constructions" (Bill Sloman)

Bozo the Clown...

--
Anthony William Sloman <bill....@ieee.org> wrote:

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> Subject: Re: Well... The men of science are gonna be angry - Natural immunity is gaining traction
> From: Anthony William Sloman <bill....@ieee.org>
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[boB]

On Tue, 14 Sep 2021 19:02:51 -0700 (PDT), Anthony William Sloman
<bill....@ieee.org> wrote:

>On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 9:31:23 AM UTC+10, blo...@columbus.rr.com wrote:
>> I will be darned. More antivaxxers and now they are gaining traction in a hospital. WOW. They are actually going to let unvaccinated folks continue to work in the hospitals. Burn them Down! How can anti science be gaining so much traction.....take your vaccine or be labeled as anti-science...OK
>>
>> Some people have been suggesting that natural immunity should be looked at and all our resident men of science just want to lump everyone who does not take the vaccination into the same category (basically - "unvaccinated/unwashed and eligible for de-ctizenship")
>>
>> https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2021/09/09/spectrum-health-workers-can-use-natural-immunity-vaccine-mandate-exemption/8262491002/
>
>Trust Brent Locher to read more into the report than it actually says. Clearly, getting infected with Covid-19 and surviving involves developing an immmunity to the virus.

Sure couldn't ask for anything better than natural immunity in 2020
to help reduce problems from Covid-19 !

[John Robertson]

I don't agree with Mr. Sloman about a few minor things but he is right
on the money on this topic.

"Some people" say a lot of things, the OP should provide links or these
"some people" are the same ghosts the orange one claimed supported him.

Natural immunity means you SURVIVED the first bout with Covid-19. In
other words, you were one of the naturally more resistant to the
disease. You may have noticed how many people were dying from the
initial infection, but there are survivors.

I'd rather have a vaccine any day (and the risk of minor side effects -
has the OP had a series of rabies shots yet?) than gain 'natural'
immunity by being intubated or stuck in a hospital for a few weeks
taking up spaces in beds that are needed for people who have diseases or
illnesses that are NOT easily prevented with vaccination.

Lastly, why won't Mr Tucker Carlson answer the question about if he has
had the vaccine? I find it hard to believe he hasn't, but if he actually
said that perhaps some health care worker would pop their head up and
prove he has been and that wouldn't look so good. I love his defense -
it is too intrusive a question for him to answer - unlike what he says
about people and their private lives.

John

[Brent Locher]

On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 2:11:03 AM UTC-4, John Robertson wrote:
> On 2021/09/14 7:02 p.m., Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 9:31:23 AM UTC+10, blo...@columbus.rr.com wrote:
> >> I will be darned. More antivaxxers and now they are gaining traction in a hospital. WOW. They are actually going to let unvaccinated folks continue to work in the hospitals. Burn them Down! How can anti science be gaining so much traction.....take your vaccine or be labeled as anti-science...OK
> >>
> >> Some people have been suggesting that natural immunity should be looked at and all our resident men of science just want to lump everyone who does not take the vaccination into the same category (basically - "unvaccinated/unwashed and eligible for de-ctizenship")
> >>
> >> https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2021/09/09/spectrum-health-workers-can-use-natural-immunity-vaccine-mandate-exemption/8262491002/
> >
> > Trust Brent Locher to read more into the report than it actually says. Clearly, getting infected with Covid-19 and surviving involves developing an immmunity to the virus.
> >
> > What he seems to miss is that that immunity will be to the actual strain that did the infection. The Covid-19 vaccine used in the west - Pfzer, Moderna, Astra-Zeneca and so on, use a version of the highly conserved Covid-19 spike protein as their antigen, and provoke antibodies to that that are more likely to work against new strains of the virus than antibodies to a larger chunk of the Covid-19 capsule. This has been pointed out to him at regular intervals, but the idea does seem to be too complicated for him to process - he's rather like Flyguy in this respect.
> >

The idea I am pushing is the immorality of forced vaccinations. So let me ask you as a man of science.....Should a person with the antibodies through a natural covid infection be forced (under threat of losing their job) to take the vaccine if they do not want to. Lets just boil it down to this very simple question. I do find it curious how men of science feel they are intellectual giants for muddying up the waters of the most simple questions.

(EG is a boy a boy and a girl a girl ---no can do)

[Brent Locher]

On Tuesday, September 14, 2021 at 11:43:07 PM UTC-4, boB wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Sep 2021 19:02:51 -0700 (PDT), Anthony William Sloman
> <bill....@ieee.org> wrote:
>
> >On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 9:31:23 AM UTC+10, blo...@columbus.rr.com wrote:
> >> I will be darned. More antivaxxers and now they are gaining traction in a hospital. WOW. They are actually going to let unvaccinated folks continue to work in the hospitals. Burn them Down! How can anti science be gaining so much traction.....take your vaccine or be labeled as anti-science...OK
> >>
> >> Some people have been suggesting that natural immunity should be looked at and all our resident men of science just want to lump everyone who does not take the vaccination into the same category (basically - "unvaccinated/unwashed and eligible for de-ctizenship")
> >>
> >> https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2021/09/09/spectrum-health-workers-can-use-natural-immunity-vaccine-mandate-exemption/8262491002/
> >
> >Trust Brent Locher to read more into the report than it actually says. Clearly, getting infected with Covid-19 and surviving involves developing an immmunity to the virus.
> Sure couldn't ask for anything better than natural immunity in 2020
> to help reduce problems from Covid-19 !
> >

Yes and this very question was posed to our men of science on this board. The question being would you rather have had covid-19 and recovered with the "mean" side effects or would you rather get the vaccine.

Our men of science just cannot even process what "mean " I think one of our resident men of science gave a half hearted answer and the rest could not even process the question.

It is a very simple question. I would rather have had the virus and recovered with the "mean " side effects than to get the vaccine..

and here we are 1 month or so later and "science (whatever the hell that is these days)" is starting to find natural immunity is better than the vaccine. And yet our men of science can not even process the concept.

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 8:20:32 PM UTC+10, blo...@columbus.rr.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 14, 2021 at 11:43:07 PM UTC-4, boB wrote:
> > On Tue, 14 Sep 2021 19:02:51 -0700 (PDT), Anthony William Sloman
> > <bill....@ieee.org> wrote:
> >
> > >On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 9:31:23 AM UTC+10, blo...@columbus.rr.com wrote:
> > >> I will be darned. More antivaxxers and now they are gaining traction in a hospital. WOW. They are actually going to let unvaccinated folks continue to work in the hospitals. Burn them Down! How can anti science be gaining so much traction.....take your vaccine or be labeled as anti-science...OK
> > >>
> > >> Some people have been suggesting that natural immunity should be looked at and all our resident men of science just want to lump everyone who does not take the vaccination into the same category (basically - "unvaccinated/unwashed and eligible for de-ctizenship")
> > >>
> > >> https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2021/09/09/spectrum-health-workers-can-use-natural-immunity-vaccine-mandate-exemption/8262491002/
> > >
> > >Trust Brent Locher to read more into the report than it actually says. Clearly, getting infected with Covid-19 and surviving involves developing an immmunity to the virus.
> > Sure couldn't ask for anything better than natural immunity in 2020 to help reduce problems from Covid-19 !
> > >
> Yes and this very question was posed to our men of science on this board. The question being would you rather have had covid-19 and recovered with the "mean" side effects or would you rather get the vaccine.
>
> Our men of science just cannot even process what "mean " I think one of our resident men of science gave a half hearted answer and the rest could not even process the question.

It's a stupid question. You don't get a "mean" side effect. You run the risk of a whole range of side-effects, which do include death

> It is a very simple question.

It looks simple to Brent Locher, who - like Flyguy - likes "simple" question he thinks he can answer, and doesn't realise that his simple questions are never the right questions.

> I would rather have had the virus and recovered with the "mean " side effects than to get the vaccine...

Perhaps. But you don't get to chose. Catch the virus and you can end up dead, or seriously messed up. You do seem to be pretty messed up in the head anyway, so you may not be worried about it.

> and here we are 1 month or so later and "science (whatever the hell that is these days)" is starting to find natural immunity is better than the vaccine.

It isn't. Your antibody levels may go higher when you are recovering from a natural infection, but that doesn't make you any more immune. The antibodies you get from a natural infection are more likely to be specific to the strain of virus that infected than the antibodies you'd developed after being vaccinated by any of the vaccines used in the west, so it's worse, in the sense that it probably won't work as well against new strains.

> And yet our men of science can not even process the concept.

Sure we can. It's you who isn't processing the detailed information that you ought to be taking on board.

> > >What he seems to miss is that that immunity will be to the actual strain that did the infection. The Covid-19 vaccine used in the west - Pfzer, Moderna, Astra-Zeneca and so on, use a version of the highly conserved Covid-19 spike protein as their antigen, and provoke antibodies to that that are more likely to work against new strains of the virus than antibodies to a larger chunk of the Covid-19 capsule. This has been pointed out to him at regular intervals, but the idea does seem to be too complicated for him to process - he's rather like Flyguy in this respect.

I did spell it out for him, but he ran out of attention span before he got to the data. Like Flyguy, he started typing his response before he got to the bit of the post where his question was answered.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

[Edward Hernandez]

The John Doe troll stated the following in message-id
<sdhn7c$pkp$4...@dont-email.me>:

> The troll doesn't even know how to format a USENET post...

And the John Doe troll stated the following in message-id
<sg3kr7$qt5$1...@dont-email.me>:

> The reason Bozo cannot figure out how to get Google to keep from
> breaking its lines in inappropriate places is because Bozo is > CLUELESS...

And yet, the clueless John Doe troll has itself posted yet another
incorectly formatted USENET posting on Wed, 15 Sep 2021 03:33:28 -0000
(UTC) in message-id <shrpi8$h8g$6...@dont-email.me>.

[John Doe]

A weird nym-shifting troll, usually "Corvid" (also "Charger Boy", see sci.electronics.repair)...

see also...
=?UTF-8?Q?C=c3=b6rvid?= <b...@ckbirds.org>
=?UTF-8?B?8J+QriBDb3dzIGFyZSBOaWNlIPCfkK4=?= <ni...@cows.moo>
Banders <sn...@mailchute.com>
Covid-19 <alway...@message.header>
Corvid <b...@ckbirds.net>
Corvid <b...@ckbirds.org>
Cows Are Nice <co...@nice.moo>
Cows are nice <m...@cows.org>
Cows are Nice <ni...@cows.moo>
dogs <do...@home.com>
Edward H. <dtga...@gmail.com>
Edward Hernandez <dtga...@gmail.com>
Great Pumpkin <pum...@patch.net>
Jose Curvo <jcu...@mymail.com>
Local Favorite <how2r...@palomar.info>
Peter Weiner <dtga...@gmail.com>
Sea <fres...@coast.org>
Standard Poodle <stan...@poodle.com>
triangles <bu...@home.com>
and others...

--
Edward Hernandez <dtga...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Path: eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!aioe.org!HQqjtrwtWYY0cW+c5n/Byw.user.46.165.242.75.POSTED!not-for-mail
> From: Edward Hernandez <dtga...@gmail.com>
> Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design

> Subject: Re: Well... The men of science are gonna be angry - Natural immunity is gaining traction

> Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 12:39:40 -0000 (UTC)
> Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
> Message-ID: <shspib$15f7$5...@gioia.aioe.org>
> References: <2733344a-07c6-4219...@googlegroups.com> <66d13488-253c-41ee...@googlegroups.com> <shrpi8$h8g$6...@dont-email.me>
> Injection-Info: gioia.aioe.org; logging-data="38375"; posting-host="HQqjtrwtWYY0cW+c5n/Byw.user.gioia.aioe.org"; mail-complaints-to="ab...@aioe.org";
> X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.9.2
> Xref: reader02.eternal-september.org sci.electronics.design:644935

[Rick C]

You didn't respond when I posted this before. So let's try again.

Ok, let's cut through the rhetoric and discuss one simple issue. You characterize the idea of everyone getting the vaccine as "your vaccine will not work if I do not take my vaccine". Let's analyze why that is not the issue anyone other than you is discussing.

The virus is infecting many more unvaccinated people than vaccinated people. Do you disagree with that?

So in areas of the world where the vaccination rate is not high enough, the virus is infecting a lot more people. Do you disagree with that?

If the vaccination rate is high enough the rate of infection can be brought to very low numbers. Do you disagree with that?

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

[Ed Lee]

> The virus is infecting many more unvaccinated people than vaccinated people. Do you disagree with that?

We don't know that for sure. The virus is a equal opportunity infecter. However, vaccinated or previously infected (natural immunity) could get rid of it quicker or suffer less health damages.

I believe we should vaccinate every 12 months (or sooner) from last vaccination or infection.

[John Robertson]

On 2021/09/15 3:14 a.m., Brent Locher wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 2:11:03 AM UTC-4, John Robertson wrote:
>> On 2021/09/14 7:02 p.m., Anthony William Sloman wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 9:31:23 AM UTC+10, blo...@columbus.rr.com wrote:
>>>> I will be darned. More antivaxxers and now they are gaining traction in a hospital. WOW. They are actually going to let unvaccinated folks continue to work in the hospitals. Burn them Down! How can anti science be gaining so much traction.....take your vaccine or be labeled as anti-science...OK
>>>>
>>>> Some people have been suggesting that natural immunity should be looked at and all our resident men of science just want to lump everyone who does not take the vaccination into the same category (basically - "unvaccinated/unwashed and eligible for de-ctizenship")
>>>>
>>>> https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2021/09/09/spectrum-health-workers-can-use-natural-immunity-vaccine-mandate-exemption/8262491002/
>>>
>>> Trust Brent Locher to read more into the report than it actually says. Clearly, getting infected with Covid-19 and surviving involves developing an immmunity to the virus.
>>>
>>> What he seems to miss is that that immunity will be to the actual strain that did the infection. The Covid-19 vaccine used in the west - Pfzer, Moderna, Astra-Zeneca and so on, use a version of the highly conserved Covid-19 spike protein as their antigen, and provoke antibodies to that that are more likely to work against new strains of the virus than antibodies to a larger chunk of the Covid-19 capsule. This has been pointed out to him at regular intervals, but the idea does seem to be too complicated for him to process - he's rather like Flyguy in this respect.
>>>
>
> The idea I am pushing is the immorality of forced vaccinations. So let me ask you as a man of science.....Should a person with the antibodies through a natural covid infection be forced (under threat of losing their job) to take the vaccine if they do not want to. Lets just boil it down to this very simple question. I do find it curious how men of science feel they are intellectual giants for muddying up the waters of the most simple questions.

You live in a society with laws. You may not agree with all the laws,
and as such have a perfect right to elect people to change those laws.
Until then you either abid by them or peacefully protest the laws you
disagree with.

"Employees MUST wash hands after using the restroom"
"Seatbelts required by law"
and so on.

Smallpox, Polio, and other communicable diseases were only eradicated by
mandatory vaccination. Would you like Polio or Smallpox to return? How
about The Black Plague? Many of us are the survivors of folks with some
level of natural immunity (something like 25% of the population
survived) - is that what you want everyone to go through every time a
new disease wanders by?

John ;-#)#

[Brent Locher]

Comparing this disease with smallpox and polio is a strawman.

1. The CDC changed the definition of what a "vaccine" is in order to provide vaccines for covid. If a vaccine was provided or covid that followed the same definition of what the vaccines were that conquered polio and covid you might have a point. But after the definitions were it no longer compares to smallpox or polio.

2. The death rate of this does not in anyway compare to smallpox.


> John ;-#)#

[Brent Locher]

On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 10:22:02 AM UTC-4, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 14, 2021 at 7:31:23 PM UTC-4, blo...@columbus.rr.com wrote:
> > I will be darned. More antivaxxers and now they are gaining traction in a hospital. WOW. They are actually going to let unvaccinated folks continue to work in the hospitals. Burn them Down! How can anti science be gaining so much traction.....take your vaccine or be labeled as anti-science...OK
> >
> > Some people have been suggesting that natural immunity should be looked at and all our resident men of science just want to lump everyone who does not take the vaccination into the same category (basically - "unvaccinated/unwashed and eligible for de-ctizenship")
> >
> >
> >
> > https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2021/09/09/spectrum-health-workers-can-use-natural-immunity-vaccine-mandate-exemption/8262491002/

Nor have you responded to the idea that people who have had covid should be exempt from mandatory vaccination..... but I will answer your questions because I am not a man of science who uses my brain power to obfuscate.

> You didn't respond when I posted this before. So let's try again.
>
> Ok, let's cut through the rhetoric and discuss one simple issue. You characterize the idea of everyone getting the vaccine as "your vaccine will not work if I do not take my vaccine". Let's analyze why that is not the issue anyone other than you is discussing.
>
> The virus is infecting many more unvaccinated people than vaccinated people. Do you disagree with that?
>

You scientifically minded people love nuance so lets just nuance this a little bit..OK ....this may be tough but here goes

I am focusing on one group of unvaccinated people so try to remember that...you guys love nuance.....

There are two groups of unvaccinated people


1. Those who have had covid
2. Those who have not had Covid

So now lets compare the vaccinated to these two distinct groups of people...

For group 1. It appears that the people who have already had covid fare better against covid than those who are vaccinated and have not had covid
For group 2. .. It appears that for the moment the vaccinated people are faring better than the unvaccinated.

> So in areas of the world where the vaccination rate is not high enough, the virus is infecting a lot more people. Do you disagree with that?
>

This is not at all clear. India feel pretty good about treating the disease with mostly horse paste. Japan is having second thoughts about the vaccine.

> If the vaccination rate is high enough the rate of infection can be brought to very low numbers. Do you disagree with that?
>

I do not agree with this premise at all. Perhaps in the short term high vaccination rates will yield low case levels, but Israel has already given up on vaccination round one and is planning on boosters. The effectiveness of the vaccine is down substantially just after 8 months. Also, When you say "If" the rates are high enough could you define (precisely) what that means? Does that mean every person in the world , or just every person in the western countries. Does that include animals where (unlike smallpox) the virus is continuing to march on. So what is "Enough" The answer is , of course, the enough that is required is impossible. and scientifically minded people should know not to piss into a tornado.

[Rick C]

Can you explain how what the changes are and how they are important?

> 2. The death rate of this does not in anyway compare to smallpox.

Oh? How many died of smallpox? Do you realize that we don't yet have a number for deaths from Covid because the count continues to rise each day? Of those diagnosed as infected the death rate is around 2%. That's not high enough to be important in your opinion?

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

[Rick C]

On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 2:43:47 PM UTC-4, blo...@columbus.rr.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 10:22:02 AM UTC-4, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 14, 2021 at 7:31:23 PM UTC-4, blo...@columbus.rr.com wrote:
> > > I will be darned. More antivaxxers and now they are gaining traction in a hospital. WOW. They are actually going to let unvaccinated folks continue to work in the hospitals. Burn them Down! How can anti science be gaining so much traction.....take your vaccine or be labeled as anti-science...OK
> > >
> > > Some people have been suggesting that natural immunity should be looked at and all our resident men of science just want to lump everyone who does not take the vaccination into the same category (basically - "unvaccinated/unwashed and eligible for de-ctizenship")
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2021/09/09/spectrum-health-workers-can-use-natural-immunity-vaccine-mandate-exemption/8262491002/
> Nor have you responded to the idea that people who have had covid should be exempt from mandatory vaccination..... but I will answer your questions because I am not a man of science who uses my brain power to obfuscate.
> > You didn't respond when I posted this before. So let's try again.
> >
> > Ok, let's cut through the rhetoric and discuss one simple issue. You characterize the idea of everyone getting the vaccine as "your vaccine will not work if I do not take my vaccine". Let's analyze why that is not the issue anyone other than you is discussing.
> >
> > The virus is infecting many more unvaccinated people than vaccinated people. Do you disagree with that?
> >
> You scientifically minded people love nuance so lets just nuance this a little bit..OK ....this may be tough but here goes
>
> I am focusing on one group of unvaccinated people so try to remember that...you guys love nuance.....

Ok, so you choose to not discuss the question I've asked. Noted.

> There are two groups of unvaccinated people
>
>
> 1. Those who have had covid
> 2. Those who have not had Covid
>
> So now lets compare the vaccinated to these two distinct groups of people...
>
> For group 1. It appears that the people who have already had covid fare better against covid than those who are vaccinated and have not had covid

That is not in evidence. There are reports of Covid infections (assuming you have not died from the infection) providing better immunity and there are reports saying immunity providved by Covid infections providing poorer immunity. This is not new to you, it has been discussed many times here, but you refuse to participate in a rational discussion.

> For group 2. .. It appears that for the moment the vaccinated people are faring better than the unvaccinated.

"For the moment"??? Oh, you mean once the no-vax herd has been adequately culled and 2% have died with many, many more suffering from the persistent effects of Covid, the survivors will have some level of immunity. Do you acknowledge the reality of immunization by infection has a very high cost of illness and death?

> > So in areas of the world where the vaccination rate is not high enough, the virus is infecting a lot more people. Do you disagree with that?
> >
> This is not at all clear. India feel pretty good about treating the disease with mostly horse paste. Japan is having second thoughts about the vaccine.

You seem to be off task again. This isn't about "feeling good" (which is not in evidence) or treatment. I asked a simple question about infection rates correlating with vaccination rates. Do you not understand the question?

> > If the vaccination rate is high enough the rate of infection can be brought to very low numbers. Do you disagree with that?
> >
> I do not agree with this premise at all. Perhaps in the short term high vaccination rates will yield low case levels, but Israel has already given up on vaccination round one and is planning on boosters. The effectiveness of the vaccine is down substantially just after 8 months.

So you acknowledge that high vaccination rates result in low infection rates? No one ever said the vaccine would provide permanent immunity. Tetanus vaccinations result in temporary immunity. The Flu vaccine results in temporary immunity. Is this an issue you can't seem to grasp?

> Also, When you say "If" the rates are high enough could you define (precisely) what that means?

The vaccine seems to work adequately against all known strains to date. It is not 100% effective against any strain. The higher spreading variants require a higher immunization rate to slow the viral spread adequately. Do you understand that?

> Does that mean every person in the world , or just every person in the western countries. Does that include animals where (unlike smallpox) the virus is continuing to march on. So what is "Enough" The answer is , of course, the enough that is required is impossible. and scientifically minded people should know not to piss into a tornado.

People in Asia don't infect people in the US nearly as much as they do other people in Asia. So clearly high vaccination rates locally will drastically lower the infection rates locally. Does that not make sense to you?

It would be great if we could vaccinate everyone in the world, but that's going to be a huge effort and we are still a way off from that.

--

Rick C.

-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

[Rick C]

Unless you are in denial of reality, we *do* know that the vaccine protects against infection even if not 100%. That's the second thing they test for (after testing that it isn't inherently dangerous), efficacy. Then they test for efficacy some more. Then there is all the data collected over the last 18 months.

I'm not going to debate this with you. It is just to tiresome.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

[Brent Locher]

I have stated form the start that this is foremost a philosophical issue and not a scientific one. although the science is not clear either way. If you want a society where politicians who pay the scientists use those scientists to tell you how to behave and what shots to take for fear of the loss of your livelihood , then more power to you. You are living with the same principles that most Germans in Germany in 1937 lived by. You are not unusual or particularity intelligent , you are pretty normal as far as humans go and their abilities to evaluate what is going on.

[Jasen Betts]

On 2021-09-15, Brent Locher <blo...@columbus.rr.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 2:11:03 AM UTC-4, John Robertson wrote:
>> On 2021/09/14 7:02 p.m., Anthony William Sloman wrote:
>> > On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 9:31:23 AM UTC+10, blo...@columbus.rr.com wrote:
>> >> I will be darned. More antivaxxers and now they are gaining traction in a hospital. WOW. They are actually going to let unvaccinated folks continue to work in the hospitals. Burn them Down! How can anti science be gaining so much traction.....take your vaccine or be labeled as anti-science...OK
>> >>
>> >> Some people have been suggesting that natural immunity should be looked at and all our resident men of science just want to lump everyone who does not take the vaccination into the same category (basically - "unvaccinated/unwashed and eligible for de-ctizenship")
>> >>
>> >> https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2021/09/09/spectrum-health-workers-can-use-natural-immunity-vaccine-mandate-exemption/8262491002/
>> >
>> > Trust Brent Locher to read more into the report than it actually says. Clearly, getting infected with Covid-19 and surviving involves developing an immmunity to the virus.
>> >
>> > What he seems to miss is that that immunity will be to the actual strain that did the infection. The Covid-19 vaccine used in the west - Pfzer, Moderna, Astra-Zeneca and so on, use a version of the highly conserved Covid-19 spike protein as their antigen, and provoke antibodies to that that are more likely to work against new strains of the virus than antibodies to a larger chunk of the Covid-19 capsule. This has been pointed out to him at regular intervals, but the idea does seem to be too complicated for him to process - he's rather like Flyguy in this respect.
>> >
>
> The idea I am pushing is the immorality of forced vaccinations. So
>let me ask you as a man of science.....Should a person with the
>antibodies through a natural covid infection be forced (under threat
>of losing their job) to take the vaccine if they do not want to. Lets
>just boil it down to this very simple question. I do find it curious
>how men of science feel they are intellectual giants for muddying up
>the waters of the most simple questions.

It's simpler than that. Nobody should loose their job for being
unvaccinasted unless they are putting others at risk.

Now since it is known that natural immunity is inferior to
vaccination, in that natural immunity provides less protection.
There seems a good case to require certain occupations be
vaccinated, even if they have survived the wild virus.

--
Jasen.

[DecadentLinux...@decadence.org]

Brent Locher <blo...@columbus.rr.com> wrote in
news:10f9d423-b4cc-4882...@googlegroups.com:

You are a goddamned idiot.

> If a vaccine was provided or covid
> that followed the same definition of what the vaccines were that
> conquered polio and covid you might have a point.

The word for today is 'function' except in the case of you and
your brain. Then, the applicable word is DYSFUNCTION.

> But after the
> definitions were it no longer compares to smallpox or polio.

You should probably go back to complete sentences, if you were ever
there to start with.

> 2. The death rate of this does not in anyway compare to smallpox.

Except that you fail as usual, since you did not include the
chronology. THIS virus kills and in a fast period. It most
definitely compares to smallpox. And we have jackasses like you to
thank for it still being here.

[DecadentLinux...@decadence.org]

Brent Locher <blo...@columbus.rr.com> wrote in news:663cd0a9-684c-
4813-ae8b-f...@googlegroups.com:

>
> There are two groups of unvaccinated people
>
>
> 1. Those who have had covid
> 2. Those who have not had Covid
>

You are an idiot. There is at least one more.

An unvaccinated person who CURRENTLY has covid.

Trust me... your pathetic views hold zero credence here.
You cannot even do basic math.

[Brent Locher]

Are you speaking for yourself or speaking for others on this forum. I find that "men of Science" frequently speak on the behalf of others.

[Jasen Betts]

On 2021-09-15, Brent Locher <blo...@columbus.rr.com> wrote:

> On Tuesday, September 14, 2021 at 11:43:07 PM UTC-4, boB wrote:
>> On Tue, 14 Sep 2021 19:02:51 -0700 (PDT), Anthony William Sloman
>> <bill....@ieee.org> wrote:
>>
>> >On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 9:31:23 AM UTC+10, blo...@columbus.rr.com wrote:
>> >> I will be darned. More antivaxxers and now they are gaining traction in a hospital. WOW. They are actually going to let unvaccinated folks continue to work in the hospitals. Burn them Down! How can anti science be gaining so much traction.....take your vaccine or be labeled as anti-science...OK
>> >>
>> >> Some people have been suggesting that natural immunity should be looked at and all our resident men of science just want to lump everyone who does not take the vaccination into the same category (basically - "unvaccinated/unwashed and eligible for de-ctizenship")
>> >>
>> >> https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2021/09/09/spectrum-health-workers-can-use-natural-immunity-vaccine-mandate-exemption/8262491002/
>> >
>> >Trust Brent Locher to read more into the report than it actually says. Clearly, getting infected with Covid-19 and surviving involves developing an immmunity to the virus.
>> Sure couldn't ask for anything better than natural immunity in 2020
>> to help reduce problems from Covid-19 !
>> >
>
> Yes and this very question was posed to our men of science on this board. The question being would you rather have had covid-19 and recovered with the "mean" side effects or would you rather get the vaccine.

So you're asking if I would reather be 2% dead or 0.0001% dead? That
seems a fairly easy choice to me.

Do you have some other definition of "mean"?
[apparently not, just waffle which I have deleted]

Do you want to average some other outcomes too? Any in particular?
If you could point to the source of your question above it would
probably be easier to debunk it in detail.

--
Jasen.

[Brent Locher]

Putting others at risk.....Wow, that sounds like the title of a movie where some government leader works up the entire population into a froth and then he gets to determine what behavior puts people at risk and before you know it it starts to look like political enemies seem to be the people putting everyone at risk.

I mean "Putting people at risk" is a pretty interesting concept. I hereby declare that everyone get off the road except me because everyone else is putting me at risk. I mean do you even think about the ramifications of non nonsensical things that are said.

[Brent Locher]

Think about 10 people you know that have had covid. Take the middle person as far as the after affects from covid. That would be the mean outcome. Obfuscation is not the mark of a smart person.

For instance , I know of about 10 people who have had Covid. More than 5 of them are just fine after 1 month. maybe some lingering loss of taste. These things are not that hard.

[DecadentLinux...@decadence.org]

Brent Locher <blo...@columbus.rr.com> wrote in

news:70a8ed9a-aebb-4e50...@googlegroups.com:

"You find that" ??? Dude, your observations are about as valid as
a freshly laid turd. Just like the shit pile between your ears.

When was the last time you posted any fucking thing about
electronics here?

You are a goddamned stupid punk, at best, Locher.

[Brent Locher]

So I take it you are not confident that your vaccine is not going to work. I guess I would be angry too. I accepted early on that everyone was going to eventually get this and the blame rests with China and probably the Wuhan lab.

[Brent Locher]

On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 5:37:12 PM UTC-4, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:
> Brent Locher <blo...@columbus.rr.com> wrote in
> news:70a8ed9a-aebb-4e50...@googlegroups.com:
> > On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 5:10:32 PM UTC-4,
> > DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:
> >> Brent Locher <blo...@columbus.rr.com> wrote in
> >> news:663cd0a9-684c- 4813-ae8b-f...@googlegroups.com:
> >> >
> >> > There are two groups of unvaccinated people
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > 1. Those who have had covid
> >> > 2. Those who have not had Covid
> >> >
> >> You are an idiot. There is at least one more.
> >>
> >> An unvaccinated person who CURRENTLY has covid.
> >>
> >> Trust me... your pathetic views hold zero credence here.
> >> You cannot even do basic math.
> >
> > Are you speaking for yourself or speaking for others on this
> > forum. I find that "men of Science" frequently speak on the
> > behalf of others.
> >
> "You find that" ??? Dude, your observations are about as valid as
> a freshly laid turd. Just like the shit pile between your ears.
>
> When was the last time you posted any fucking thing about
> electronics here?
>
> You are a goddamned stupid punk, at best, Locher.

I do think you are just a random phrase generator with about 150 different phrases in your memory banks.

[DecadentLinux...@decadence.org]

Brent Locher <blo...@columbus.rr.com> wrote in

news:0825a36e-4bd3-48e5...@googlegroups.com:

You will get three choices.

Vaccinate and grow the fuck up, twerp.

Go to prison and do all of your pissiong and moaning from your
cell.

Get a nice circus cannon shot into a deep lye pit, and we will not
have to worry about any of the shit you spout from your upper anuse
ever again.

> I mean "Putting people at risk" is a pretty interesting concept.

Interesting? Motherfucker you not being vaccinated and then going
out in public IS putting people at risk. It is not a concept you
stupid fuck.

Only a 4 year old child would be unable to grasp that concept.

> I hereby declare that everyone get off the road except me because
> everyone else is putting me at risk.

Drive past me. I'll put you in the ditch where you belong.
Hopefully at the bottom of a chasm three to five hundred feet deep.

> I mean do you even think
> about the ramifications of non nonsensical things that are said.

Do you, fucktard? You stay at home. You will be fine. Go out in
PUBLIC unvaccinated in a civil society that has a vaccine that is
under attack by a pandemic airborne resporitory virus, and yes, you
retarded fuck, you are puting others at risk.

[Brent Locher]

Your views are not going to wear well as time presses on.

[DecadentLinux...@decadence.org]

Brent Locher <blo...@columbus.rr.com> wrote in

news:a73df0fc-3af9-441e...@googlegroups.com:

You are mumbling again, boy. Nothing along those lines was stated
at all, you word twisting retarded fuck. Somebody should beat knots
into your skull.

> I guess I would be angry too.

Never said a goddamned thing about being angry, you retarded putz!

> I accepted early on that
> everyone was going to eventually get this and the blame rests with
> China and probably the Wuhan lab.

I accepted real early on (like your first post) that you will never
get this and deserve to be mutilated because you will not stop
posting your retarded disinformation.

Remember "The Hustler" when they broke Eddie's fingers?

Someone needs to drill out your larynx so you cannot speak, your
eyes so you can no longer see, and chop your hands off so you can no
longer post stupid shit into Usenet.

[DecadentLinux...@decadence.org]

Brent Locher <blo...@columbus.rr.com> wrote in

news:3756d920-5b36-49b8...@googlegroups.com:

Then post your address, pussy boy.

[Rick C]

On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 5:37:07 PM UTC-4, blo...@columbus.rr.com wrote:
> >
> Think about 10 people you know that have had covid. Take the middle person as far as the after affects from covid. That would be the mean outcome. Obfuscation is not the mark of a smart person.

Try applying that rationale to Russian roulette. That's actually a pretty good analogy. By your reasoning there's little reason not to play. You gotta play to win!

> For instance , I know of about 10 people who have had Covid. More than 5 of them are just fine after 1 month. maybe some lingering loss of taste. These things are not that hard.

What about the other 5??? Sounds like the other five have lasting effects beyond a month. Any end up in the hospital? Any in the ICU? Any of them die?

Why is a global pandemic about the personal experiences of just your friends? How does this make any sense to you???

Seriously, if you think this disease is such a nothing, why don't you volunteer to work at the hospital? Work directly with Covid patients for a few months. There are medical professionals who are quitting because they can't take watching the senseless loss of life and misery people suffer.

I had always realized how bad cigarettes were for you, but it was very theoretical until my uncle died of lung cancer and I got to watch up close and personal as he died an inch a day until he became a withering hulk, a shell of a body gasping for a breath with no sign of a human being left. Dying of Covid is perhaps a little better than that, but not much.

They say there are no atheists in fox holes and there are no Covid denialists in ICUs.

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

[Brent Locher]

On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 5:56:13 PM UTC-4, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 5:37:07 PM UTC-4, blo...@columbus.rr.com wrote:
> > >
> > Think about 10 people you know that have had covid. Take the middle person as far as the after affects from covid. That would be the mean outcome. Obfuscation is not the mark of a smart person.
> Try applying that rationale to Russian roulette. That's actually a pretty good analogy. By your reasoning there's little reason not to play. You gotta play to win!
> > For instance , I know of about 10 people who have had Covid. More than 5 of them are just fine after 1 month. maybe some lingering loss of taste. These things are not that hard.
> What about the other 5??? Sounds like the other five have lasting effects beyond a month. Any end up in the hospital? Any in the ICU? Any of them die?
>
> Why is a global pandemic about the personal experiences of just your friends? How does this make any sense to you???
>
> Seriously, if you think this disease is such a nothing, why don't you volunteer to work at the hospital? Work directly with Covid patients for a few months. There are medical professionals who are quitting because they can't take watching the senseless loss of life and misery people suffer.
>

I never said it was a nothing. But it does not rise to the level of destroying society as it is doing.

> I had always realized how bad cigarettes were for you, but it was very theoretical until my uncle died of lung cancer and I got to watch up close and personal as he died an inch a day until he became a withering hulk, a shell of a body gasping for a breath with no sign of a human being left. Dying of Covid is perhaps a little better than that, but not much.
>

My dad died of lung cancer. He lived a full life and lost maybe 3-5 years of his life. He made his choices and lived with them. He was a fantastic father and so what. He made his mark in life.

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

if you want to drive on public roads you need to be sober, have functional brakes, lights, etc.
not because anyone cares if you get hurt in a crash, but to reduce the risk of you hurting other people in a crash ...

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 6:47:08 AM UTC+10, blo...@columbus.rr.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 3:37:00 PM UTC-4, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 10:56:27 AM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
> > > > The virus is infecting many more unvaccinated people than vaccinated people. Do you disagree with that?
> > >
> > > We don't know that for sure. The virus is a equal opportunity infecter. However, vaccinated or previously infected (natural immunity) could get rid of it quicker or suffer less health damages.
> > >
> > > I believe we should vaccinate every 12 months (or sooner) from last vaccination or infection.
> >
> > Unless you are in denial of reality, we *do* know that the vaccine protects against infection even if not 100%. That's the second thing they test for (after testing that it isn't inherently dangerous), efficacy. Then they test for efficacy some more. Then there is all the data collected over the last 18 months.
> >
> > I'm not going to debate this with you. It is just to tiresome.
>

> I have stated form the start that this is foremost a philosophical issue and not a scientific one.

That may be what you think you are stating. The only reliable takeaway message from your posts is that you are too dumb to know the difference between a scientific issue and a philosophical one, and much too dumb to get any of the science right, which makes your "philosophical" ramblings irrelevant.

> Although the science is not clear either way.

How would you know? You don't seem to understand any of it, and ignore every attempt to get you to understand it better.

> If you want a society where politicians who pay the scientists use those scientists to tell you how to behave and what shots to take for fear of the loss of your livelihood, then more power to you.

By and large, politicians don't tell scientists what to say. Donald Trump didn't like what Dr. Fauci was saying a lot of the time, but couldn't force him to endorse the idiotic ideas that Donald Trump wanted to popularise - like Covid-19 "just going away".

> You are living with the same principles that most Germans in Germany in 1937 lived by. You are not unusual or particularity intelligent , you are pretty normal as far as humans go and their abilities to evaluate what is going on.

Brent Locher has some serious delusions. One of them is that he thinks he knows how well other people can evaluate what is going on - which is utterly comical granting how little idea he has about what is actually going on. He doesn't seem to know much about what was going on in Germany in 1937 either.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

[Rick C]

On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 6:24:59 PM UTC-4, blo...@columbus.rr.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 5:56:13 PM UTC-4, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 5:37:07 PM UTC-4, blo...@columbus.rr.com wrote:
> > > >
> > > Think about 10 people you know that have had covid. Take the middle person as far as the after affects from covid. That would be the mean outcome. Obfuscation is not the mark of a smart person.
> > Try applying that rationale to Russian roulette. That's actually a pretty good analogy. By your reasoning there's little reason not to play. You gotta play to win!
> > > For instance , I know of about 10 people who have had Covid. More than 5 of them are just fine after 1 month. maybe some lingering loss of taste. These things are not that hard.
> > What about the other 5??? Sounds like the other five have lasting effects beyond a month. Any end up in the hospital? Any in the ICU? Any of them die?
> >
> > Why is a global pandemic about the personal experiences of just your friends? How does this make any sense to you???
> >
> > Seriously, if you think this disease is such a nothing, why don't you volunteer to work at the hospital? Work directly with Covid patients for a few months. There are medical professionals who are quitting because they can't take watching the senseless loss of life and misery people suffer.
> >
> I never said it was a nothing. But it does not rise to the level of destroying society as it is doing.

Wow! You just contradicted yourself in a rater comic manner. You said it is not doing something that it is doing!

Last summer my very conservative neighbor had some family and friends over and we discussed the pandemic. They were not an intelligent bunch other than perhaps my neighbor and mostly spouted sound bites without understanding any of them or knowing any facts. They talked about the "lockdowns" destroying the economy and I pointed out there were no lockdowns at that point and that even though restaurants and such were allowed to reopen people were staying away because they were not confident it was safe.

Likewise, there is no destruction of society as you call it and any harm to the economy is not about government mandates. People don't want to catch this disease and the only sure method of preventing that is to stay home. I mostly stay home and when I do go out I try to follow all the precautions. I was back in VA last week and in spite of the infection rates being high they didn't even have a mask mandate in public places!!! I don't see how anyone can say mandates are wrecking the economy!

> > I had always realized how bad cigarettes were for you, but it was very theoretical until my uncle died of lung cancer and I got to watch up close and personal as he died an inch a day until he became a withering hulk, a shell of a body gasping for a breath with no sign of a human being left. Dying of Covid is perhaps a little better than that, but not much.
> >
> My dad died of lung cancer. He lived a full life and lost maybe 3-5 years of his life. He made his choices and lived with them. He was a fantastic father and so what. He made his mark in life.

How did your father enjoy his final few months? Was that an important part of his rich, full life? I suppose he never once regretted having smoked? Maybe he went easier than my uncle. My uncle's final weeks were the most gruesome thing I've ever experienced. From what I've read a death by Covid is right up there next to lung cancer, but without the rich, satisfying, smooth taste.

Cigarettes killed my mom as well, but it was a coronary thrombosis. She was alone, at home when it happened. She probably had some pain, but was gone in a matter of minutes. Very un-Covid like.

There is nothing good about dying of Covid, an entirely preventable disease.

--

Rick C.

+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

[Martin Brown]

On 15/09/2021 11:14, Brent Locher wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 2:11:03 AM UTC-4, John Robertson
> wrote:
>> On 2021/09/14 7:02 p.m., Anthony William Sloman wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 9:31:23 AM UTC+10,
>>> blo...@columbus.rr.com wrote:
>>>> I will be darned. More antivaxxers and now they are gaining
>>>> traction in a hospital. WOW. They are actually going to let
>>>> unvaccinated folks continue to work in the hospitals. Burn them
>>>> Down! How can anti science be gaining so much traction.....take
>>>> your vaccine or be labeled as anti-science...OK
>>>>
>>>> Some people have been suggesting that natural immunity should
>>>> be looked at and all our resident men of science just want to
>>>> lump everyone who does not take the vaccination into the same
>>>> category (basically - "unvaccinated/unwashed and eligible for
>>>> de-ctizenship")
>>>>
>>>> https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2021/09/09/spectrum-health-workers-can-use-natural-immunity-vaccine-mandate-exemption/8262491002/
>>>
>>>
>>>>
Trust Brent Locher to read more into the report than it actually says.
Clearly, getting infected with Covid-19 and surviving involves
developing an immmunity to the virus.

At least for a while. Don't bet on not catching the next strain though.
Natural immunity seems to be fairly short lived. Antibodies are back to
baseline in about half the time that a vaccine generated immunity lasts.

Plenty of people in the UK have had Covid more than once in different
waves of the infection original and Kent or more commonly Kent & Delta.

>>> What he seems to miss is that that immunity will be to the actual
>>> strain that did the infection. The Covid-19 vaccine used in the
>>> west - Pfzer, Moderna, Astra-Zeneca and so on, use a version of
>>> the highly conserved Covid-19 spike protein as their antigen, and
>>> provoke antibodies to that that are more likely to work against
>>> new strains of the virus than antibodies to a larger chunk of the
>>> Covid-19 capsule. This has been pointed out to him at regular
>>> intervals, but the idea does seem to be too complicated for him
>>> to process - he's rather like Flyguy in this respect.
>>>
>
> The idea I am pushing is the immorality of forced vaccinations. So
> let me ask you as a man of science.....Should a person with the
> antibodies through a natural covid infection be forced (under threat
> of losing their job) to take the vaccine if they do not want to.

Actually as a scientist I do not approve of the forced vaccination of
individuals on pain of losing their job unless they are in very specific
occupations where it is strictly necessary. The military are for
instance required to have vaccinations against various nasty diseases
and potential bioweapons as a part of their conditions of employment.

I can see situations where that might also apply to some healthcare
workers on the front line with Covid *for their own safety* as well as
that of their patients. I can't see it ever applying to office workers
or farmers and nor should it. However, when the ignorant anti-vaxxers
catch Covid and repent on their death bed it is far too late!

> Lets just boil it down to this very simple question. I do find it
> curious how men of science feel they are intellectual giants for
> muddying up the waters of the most simple questions.

> (EG is a boy a boy and a girl a girl ---no can do)

That question is way more complicated than you can begin to imagine. Due
to genetic defects as well as XX = girl and XY = boy there are numerous
other possibilities some of which can be partially hermaphrodite or
still fully functioning XXX girls or XYY boys. Having too many X's or
Y's is a very bad thing but not everyone is XX or XY.

There is about 0.1% each of various other viable combinations can occur
naturally and not all of them are sterile. A fair proportion of them can
go undiagnosed and lead normal lives without ever finding out.

https://rarediseases.info.nih.gov/diseases/5674/47-xyy-syndrome

The most common forms have different heights and worse than average
teenage acne but some may also have learning difficulties.

>> I don't agree with Mr. Sloman about a few minor things but he is
>> right on the money on this topic.
>>
>> "Some people" say a lot of things, the OP should provide links or
>> these "some people" are the same ghosts the orange one claimed
>> supported him.
>>
>> Natural immunity means you SURVIVED the first bout with Covid-19.
>> In other words, you were one of the naturally more resistant to
>> the disease. You may have noticed how many people were dying from
>> the initial infection, but there are survivors.

Most people do get to survive Covid. Only 1% on average end up dead but
when you look at the older age groups that fatality rate rises to 10+%.

UK has about 10% of older refuseniks which means we are still going to
have at least another 60k preventable deaths before the pandemic is out.

Stupid is as stupid does. I'm sorry but they pretty much deserve what
they get for believing the anti-vaxxers. Darwinism is in action here.
(however most of them are beyond reproductive age)

Facebook and other social media have a case to answer for deliberately
spreading clickbait misinformation about Covid intended to mislead the
public and spread fear and anxiety amongst the credulous nincompoops
that make up an unfortunately high proportion of the general public.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Brent Locher]

And this is why I laugh at you "Men of Science" You say "As a scientist" as if that gives you some extra special insight into what is right and what is wrong. As a scientist you are no different than a plumber as to making judgments on who should do this or who should do that. Most self proclaimed "scientists" are quite inept at interpreting the most basic sets of data. So you can design a circuit...big deal. Your car mechanic can trouble shoot and design tests too. What distinguishes smart from dumb is far more subtle than doing a calculus problem or an op amp nodal analysis. Yet somehow, many "scientists" think that because they can design a cookbook filter that they somehow have more moral authority than all "those" other people.

[Brent Locher]

On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 4:06:49 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:

Here is basic data problem for you mr. "Man of science" If we were to not look at the death rate ( say 1%) in terms of lives lost but rather look at it in terms of years of life lost would ....would measuring the disease in those terms make it look less problematic or more problematic. Here is a really easy test to see how good your scientific skills are at looking at data in different ways. Pretty straight forward, and if you cannot do it I will teach you how later.

[Brent Locher]

On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 11:42:48 PM UTC-4, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 6:24:59 PM UTC-4, blo...@columbus.rr.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 5:56:13 PM UTC-4, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 5:37:07 PM UTC-4, blo...@columbus.rr.com wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > Think about 10 people you know that have had covid. Take the middle person as far as the after affects from covid. That would be the mean outcome. Obfuscation is not the mark of a smart person.
> > > Try applying that rationale to Russian roulette. That's actually a pretty good analogy. By your reasoning there's little reason not to play. You gotta play to win!
> > > > For instance , I know of about 10 people who have had Covid. More than 5 of them are just fine after 1 month. maybe some lingering loss of taste. These things are not that hard.
> > > What about the other 5??? Sounds like the other five have lasting effects beyond a month. Any end up in the hospital? Any in the ICU? Any of them die?
> > >
> > > Why is a global pandemic about the personal experiences of just your friends? How does this make any sense to you???
> > >
> > > Seriously, if you think this disease is such a nothing, why don't you volunteer to work at the hospital? Work directly with Covid patients for a few months. There are medical professionals who are quitting because they can't take watching the senseless loss of life and misery people suffer.
> > >
> > I never said it was a nothing. But it does not rise to the level of destroying society as it is doing.
> Wow! You just contradicted yourself in a rater comic manner. You said it is not doing something that it is doing!
>
> Last summer my very conservative neighbor had some family and friends over and we discussed the pandemic. They were not an intelligent bunch other than perhaps my neighbor and mostly spouted sound bites without understanding any of them or knowing any facts. They talked about the "lockdowns" destroying the economy and I pointed out there were no lockdowns at that point and that even though restaurants and such were allowed to reopen people were staying away because they were not confident it was safe.

There you go again..... putting yourself in a intellectually and morally superior position when comparing yourself to people you do not agree with politically. As a scientist you are a genius and "those other" people are stupid.

regarding lockdowns...OK you got me.... Lets call them Lockouts. There were countless lockouts against people trying to run an honest business. Their businesses were locked out and they were greatly hurt. So , you are right, lockdown isthe wrong term, however, as a man of science I am surprised that you cannot perceive that 2020 was different in some other way than 2019 regarding some concept of a lockdown. But I would expect nothing different from scientifically minded people. BTW the lockouts only seemed to effect non scientific idiots who are so stupid that all they know how to do is run a diner - so screw'em.

>
> Likewise, there is no destruction of society as you call it and any harm to the economy is not about government mandates. People don't want to catch this disease and the only sure method of preventing that is to stay home. I mostly stay home and when I do go out I try to follow all the precautions. I was back in VA last week and in spite of the infection rates being high they didn't even have a mask mandate in public places!!! I don't see how anyone can say mandates are wrecking the economy!
> > > I had always realized how bad cigarettes were for you, but it was very theoretical until my uncle died of lung cancer and I got to watch up close and personal as he died an inch a day until he became a withering hulk, a shell of a body gasping for a breath with no sign of a human being left. Dying of Covid is perhaps a little better than that, but not much.
> > >
> > My dad died of lung cancer. He lived a full life and lost maybe 3-5 years of his life. He made his choices and lived with them. He was a fantastic father and so what. He made his mark in life.
> How did your father enjoy his final few months? Was that an important part of his rich, full life? I suppose he never once regretted having smoked? Maybe he went easier than my uncle. My uncle's final weeks were the most gruesome thing I've ever experienced. From what I've read a death by Covid is right up there next to lung cancer, but without the rich, satisfying, smooth taste.
>
> Cigarettes killed my mom as well, but it was a coronary thrombosis. She was alone, at home when it happened. She probably had some pain, but was gone in a matter of minutes. Very un-Covid like.
>
> There is nothing good about dying of Covid, an entirely preventable disease.
>

We are all going to die one day. People should really process that. A lot of people died painful deaths on the battlefield. They could have stayed home and not died. Death cannot be avoided. It is appropriate to try to delay death but everyone is going to die. Covid reveal how willing we are in todays society to give up life over a disease that was not worth giving up everything and reshaping society over. This never would have happened 50 years ago. We would have slugged through it and become stronger through it. We are going to come out of this being a much weaker society. and no, I do not say this a s a "Man of science" I say it as a simple human being

[Rick C]

On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 7:37:15 AM UTC-4, blo...@columbus.rr.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 11:42:48 PM UTC-4, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 6:24:59 PM UTC-4, blo...@columbus.rr.com wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 5:56:13 PM UTC-4, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 5:37:07 PM UTC-4, blo...@columbus.rr.com wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > Think about 10 people you know that have had covid. Take the middle person as far as the after affects from covid. That would be the mean outcome. Obfuscation is not the mark of a smart person.
> > > > Try applying that rationale to Russian roulette. That's actually a pretty good analogy. By your reasoning there's little reason not to play. You gotta play to win!
> > > > > For instance , I know of about 10 people who have had Covid. More than 5 of them are just fine after 1 month. maybe some lingering loss of taste. These things are not that hard.
> > > > What about the other 5??? Sounds like the other five have lasting effects beyond a month. Any end up in the hospital? Any in the ICU? Any of them die?
> > > >
> > > > Why is a global pandemic about the personal experiences of just your friends? How does this make any sense to you???
> > > >
> > > > Seriously, if you think this disease is such a nothing, why don't you volunteer to work at the hospital? Work directly with Covid patients for a few months. There are medical professionals who are quitting because they can't take watching the senseless loss of life and misery people suffer.
> > > >
> > > I never said it was a nothing. But it does not rise to the level of destroying society as it is doing.
> > Wow! You just contradicted yourself in a rater comic manner. You said it is not doing something that it is doing!
> >
> > Last summer my very conservative neighbor had some family and friends over and we discussed the pandemic. They were not an intelligent bunch other than perhaps my neighbor and mostly spouted sound bites without understanding any of them or knowing any facts. They talked about the "lockdowns" destroying the economy and I pointed out there were no lockdowns at that point and that even though restaurants and such were allowed to reopen people were staying away because they were not confident it was safe.
> There you go again..... putting yourself in a intellectually and morally superior position when comparing yourself to people you do not agree with politically. As a scientist you are a genius and "those other" people are stupid.
>
> regarding lockdowns...OK you got me.... Lets call them Lockouts. There were countless lockouts against people trying to run an honest business. Their businesses were locked out and they were greatly hurt. So , you are right, lockdown isthe wrong term, however, as a man of science I am surprised that you cannot perceive that 2020 was different in some other way than 2019 regarding some concept of a lockdown. But I would expect nothing different from scientifically minded people. BTW the lockouts only seemed to effect non scientific idiots who are so stupid that all they know how to do is run a diner - so screw'em.

You just completely ignore the issue. The point was that no one was being "locked" in any manner at that time. The restaurants were suffering because not many people wanted to go out for their infection. These people could not see that just as you don't seem to see it.

Your ranting about "scientists" and "men of science" and what you want to call restrictions so consumes you that you can't even discuss the matter.

> > Likewise, there is no destruction of society as you call it and any harm to the economy is not about government mandates. People don't want to catch this disease and the only sure method of preventing that is to stay home. I mostly stay home and when I do go out I try to follow all the precautions. I was back in VA last week and in spite of the infection rates being high they didn't even have a mask mandate in public places!!! I don't see how anyone can say mandates are wrecking the economy!
> > > > I had always realized how bad cigarettes were for you, but it was very theoretical until my uncle died of lung cancer and I got to watch up close and personal as he died an inch a day until he became a withering hulk, a shell of a body gasping for a breath with no sign of a human being left. Dying of Covid is perhaps a little better than that, but not much.
> > > >
> > > My dad died of lung cancer. He lived a full life and lost maybe 3-5 years of his life. He made his choices and lived with them. He was a fantastic father and so what. He made his mark in life.
> > How did your father enjoy his final few months? Was that an important part of his rich, full life? I suppose he never once regretted having smoked? Maybe he went easier than my uncle. My uncle's final weeks were the most gruesome thing I've ever experienced. From what I've read a death by Covid is right up there next to lung cancer, but without the rich, satisfying, smooth taste.
> >
> > Cigarettes killed my mom as well, but it was a coronary thrombosis. She was alone, at home when it happened. She probably had some pain, but was gone in a matter of minutes. Very un-Covid like.
> >
> > There is nothing good about dying of Covid, an entirely preventable disease.
> >
> We are all going to die one day. People should really process that. A lot of people died painful deaths on the battlefield. They could have stayed home and not died. Death cannot be avoided. It is appropriate to try to delay death but everyone is going to die. Covid reveal how willing we are in todays society to give up life over a disease that was not worth giving up everything and reshaping society over. This never would have happened 50 years ago. We would have slugged through it and become stronger through it. We are going to come out of this being a much weaker society. and no, I do not say this a s a "Man of science" I say it as a simple human being

Now you have come to your conclusion that Covid is a disease that requires us to give "up everything and reshaping society over". That's silly and very Larkinesque of you. Wearing a mask is not "everything". Getting a vaccine is not "everything". It appears these are things that you can't come to grips with, causing extreme fear and provoking hysteria in you. You are convinced our response to the disease is going to "weaken society".

What you fail to understand is that if we respond appropriately to this disease and take the actions required to properly fight it rather than just allow it to ravage our population killing more than 3 million in the US alone and maiming many, many more, we *will* come out a stronger society knowing we can work together to fight anything that threatens us.

Or you can kick and scream and throw yourself on the floor refusing to take the precautions required to not spread this disease, killing those around you.

--

Rick C.

++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 8:48:15 PM UTC+10, blo...@columbus.rr.com wrote:
> On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 4:06:49 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
> > On 15/09/2021 11:14, Brent Locher wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 2:11:03 AM UTC-4, John Robertson
> > > wrote:
> > >> On 2021/09/14 7:02 p.m., Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > >>> On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 9:31:23 AM UTC+10,
> > >>> blo...@columbus.rr.com wrote:

<snip>

> > Most people do get to survive Covid. Only 1% on average end up dead but
> > when you look at the older age groups that fatality rate rises to 10+%.
> >
> Here is basic data problem for you mr. "Man of science" If we were to not look at the death rate ( say 1%) in terms of lives lost but rather look at it in terms of years of life lost would ....would measuring the disease in those terms make it look less problematic or more problematic.

Not really. Catching a disease that can kill you is not something any sensible person will risk.

You aren't remotely sensible, and you want to avoid the issue.

> Here is a really easy test to see how good your scientific skills are at looking at data in different ways. Pretty straight forward, and if you cannot do it I will teach you how later.

What is looking at the data your way going to win anybody? All you want is another excuse to act in a way that is likely to damage other people.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

[Jasen Betts]

On 2021-09-15, Brent Locher <blo...@columbus.rr.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 5:01:04 PM UTC-4, Jasen Betts wrote:
>> On 2021-09-15, Brent Locher <blo...@columbus.rr.com> wrote:
>> > On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 2:11:03 AM UTC-4, John Robertson wrote:
>> >> On 2021/09/14 7:02 p.m., Anthony William Sloman wrote:
>> >> > On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 9:31:23 AM UTC+10, blo...@columbus.rr.com wrote:
>> >> >> I will be darned. More antivaxxers and now they are gaining traction in a hospital. WOW. They are actually going to let unvaccinated folks continue to work in the hospitals. Burn them Down! How can anti science be gaining so much traction.....take your vaccine or be labeled as anti-science...OK
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Some people have been suggesting that natural immunity should be looked at and all our resident men of science just want to lump everyone who does not take the vaccination into the same category (basically - "unvaccinated/unwashed and eligible for de-ctizenship")
>> >> >>
>> >> >> https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2021/09/09/spectrum-health-workers-can-use-natural-immunity-vaccine-mandate-exemption/8262491002/
>> >> >
>> >> > Trust Brent Locher to read more into the report than it actually says. Clearly, getting infected with Covid-19 and surviving involves developing an immmunity to the virus.
>> >> >
>> >> > What he seems to miss is that that immunity will be to the actual strain that did the infection. The Covid-19 vaccine used in the west - Pfzer, Moderna, Astra-Zeneca and so on, use a version of the highly conserved Covid-19 spike protein as their antigen, and provoke antibodies to that that are more likely to work against new strains of the virus than antibodies to a larger chunk of the Covid-19 capsule. This has been pointed out to him at regular intervals, but the idea does seem to be too complicated for him to process - he's rather like Flyguy in this respect.
>> >> >
>> >
>> > The idea I am pushing is the immorality of forced vaccinations. So
>> >let me ask you as a man of science.....Should a person with the
>> >antibodies through a natural covid infection be forced (under threat
>> >of losing their job) to take the vaccine if they do not want to. Lets
>> >just boil it down to this very simple question. I do find it curious
>> >how men of science feel they are intellectual giants for muddying up
>> >the waters of the most simple questions.
>> It's simpler than that. Nobody should loose their job for being
>> unvaccinasted unless they are putting others at risk.
>>
>
>
> Putting others at risk...

Like for instance coloring food using copper sulfate,
driving while itoxicated, or smoking in a classroom.

> ..Wow, that sounds like the title of a movie where some government leader works up the entire population into a froth and then he gets to determine what behavior puts people at risk and before you know it it starts to look like political enemies seem to be the people putting everyone at risk.

you right whingers sure do love the emotional arguments.

> I mean "Putting people at risk" is a pretty interesting concept. I hereby declare that everyone get off the road except me because everyone else is putting me at risk. I mean do you even think about the ramifications of non nonsensical things that are said.

A semi valid point... how about rephrase it as "exposing others to
unnecessary risk" that's closer to what I meant.

>> Now since it is known that natural immunity is inferior to
>> vaccination, in that natural immunity provides less protection.
>> There seems a good case to require certain occupations be
>> vaccinated, even if they have survived the wild virus.
>>
>> --
>> Jasen.

--
Jasen.

[Jasen Betts]

On 2021-09-15, Brent Locher <blo...@columbus.rr.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 5:31:07 PM UTC-4, Jasen Betts wrote:
>> On 2021-09-15, Brent Locher <blo...@columbus.rr.com> wrote:
>> > On Tuesday, September 14, 2021 at 11:43:07 PM UTC-4, boB wrote:
>> >> On Tue, 14 Sep 2021 19:02:51 -0700 (PDT), Anthony William Sloman
>> >> <bill....@ieee.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 9:31:23 AM UTC+10, blo...@columbus.rr.com wrote:
>> >> >> I will be darned. More antivaxxers and now they are gaining traction in a hospital. WOW. They are actually going to let unvaccinated folks continue to work in the hospitals. Burn them Down! How can anti science be gaining so much traction.....take your vaccine or be labeled as anti-science...OK
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Some people have been suggesting that natural immunity should be looked at and all our resident men of science just want to lump everyone who does not take the vaccination into the same category (basically - "unvaccinated/unwashed and eligible for de-ctizenship")
>> >> >>
>> >> >> https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2021/09/09/spectrum-health-workers-can-use-natural-immunity-vaccine-mandate-exemption/8262491002/
>> >> >
>> >> >Trust Brent Locher to read more into the report than it actually says. Clearly, getting infected with Covid-19 and surviving involves developing an immmunity to the virus.
>> >> Sure couldn't ask for anything better than natural immunity in 2020
>> >> to help reduce problems from Covid-19 !
>> >> >
>> >
>> > Yes and this very question was posed to our men of science on this board. The question being would you rather have had covid-19 and recovered with the "mean" side effects or would you rather get the vaccine.
>> So you're asking if I would reather be 2% dead or 0.0001% dead? That
>> seems a fairly easy choice to me.
>>
>> Do you have some other definition of "mean"?
>> [apparently not, just waffle which I have deleted]
>
> Think about 10 people you know that have had covid.

John Larkin claims to have been infected, most prople seem to think
he is mistaken. other than that I have not communicated with anyone
who I suspect might have had covid. I have not mentioned it recently,
but I live in Christchurch New Zealand, as far as can be determined
Covid 19 is extinct here.

>Take the middle person as far as the after affects from covid. That would be the mean outcome.

No. That would be the median.

I'm curious what result do you you get in your proposed experiment?

> Obfuscation is not the mark of a smart person.

you used a wrong word, I'm not holding that agaist you.

--
Jasen.