Jan Panteltje wrote:
> Just wound a 1 to 1 transformer by hand in 1 minute:
> ftp://panteltje.com/pub/1_to_1_transformer_in_1_minute.jpg
I thought of winding the O-core transformers and chokes with a ribbon
cable. Unfortunately, the ribbon cable insulation can not sustain the
high temperatures.
Vladimir Vassilevsky
DSP and Mixed Signal Design Consultant
http://www.abvolt.com
What sort of frequency response are you getting?
I do the same thing but with micro-coax. Use the shield as primary and
the inner as secondary. It makes a phenomenal wideband transformer.
This is a transformer-isolated 60 volt pulse, into 50 ohms:
ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/HV_mosfet_pulse.jpg
John
>
>
>Jan Panteltje wrote:
>
>> Just wound a 1 to 1 transformer by hand in 1 minute:
>> ftp://panteltje.com/pub/1_to_1_transformer_in_1_minute.jpg
>
>I thought of winding the O-core transformers and chokes with a ribbon
>cable. Unfortunately, the ribbon cable insulation can not sustain the
>high temperatures.
There actually exists high temerature ribbon cable:
http://www.gore.com/en_xx/products/cables/flat/highflex/ribbon/ribbon.html
Dataheet:
http://www.gore.com/MungoBlobs/275/43/IDC_GTX602_ribbon_cable.pdf
Temperatue range:
-65 to +260 degrees for nickel plated.
The company I work lets me buy transformers. I think we get them from
a Chinese manufacturer whose assemblers can wind them faster than 1
minute
Thats is a nice clean pulse.
I wound this for a slightly bigger version of my DC / DC converter,
and it is already in circuit, and waiting for some glue to dry
(glued the transformer to the PCB).
So I cannot measure it stand alone anymore, but the waveform looked pretty clean,
without the oscillations I had with normal wire on a smaller core.
It is a long trip to China and back for one transformer.
Takes more then a minute too.
Since I am the last competent Ohioian I know, I will not take offense
at that dig at the buckeye state.
However since I'm in the middle of making a new SSB IF for my home
made microwave radio, I do appreciate Jan's post.
I know, just buy one, but since the demand for 2 meter SSB has gone
down, the cost of the yaesu-icom stuff has skyrocketed.
A rig that was 400 two years ago is now 650.
Steve
Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
> Since I am the last competent Ohioian I know, I will not take offense
> at that dig at the buckeye state.
>
I know lots of very competent Ohioian's. I even say that being native
to the enemy state to the north.
Yeah, I moved out of Akron in August '08 (in in Aug '07). ;-)
And your service to society is telling people how sucky they are on
USENET?
PS. I DO NOT hope that a gang gets you.
> That piece of shit he made is lame from any transformer winder POV, and
>he then actually glued it down onto a board!
We hand-wind transmission-line transformers, and hot-melt glue them to
boards. We've done thousands, and it works great.
John
Please don't feed the troll.
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
Liberalism is a persistent vegetative state
Noted - Sir!
You new here? That's DimBulb's good side.
> PS. I DO NOT hope that a gang gets you.
You're likely alone. Let us know again in a few weeks.
>On Jan 2, 12:37Â pm, Archimedes' Lever <OneBigLe...@InfiniteSeries.Org>
Ignore AL for a few days. She's just having her monthlies.
John
What are you driving the transformer with?
What did you do with the finished 60V pulse?
You could take 1 minute and make another one. :-)
>> I wound this for a slightly bigger version of my DC / DC converter,
>> and it is already in circuit, and waiting for some glue to dry (glued
>> the transformer to the PCB). So I cannot measure it stand alone
>> anymore, but the waveform looked pretty clean, without the
>> oscillations I had with normal wire on a smaller core.
>
> You could take 1 minute and make another one. :-)
But I have no more cores like this :-)
And I started using this core because I ran out of small potcores.
Use Teflon ribbon cable ?
Regards,
Boris Mohar
Got Knock? - see:
Viatrack Printed Circuit Designs (among other things) http://www.viatrack.ca
void _-void-_ in the obvious place
A pair of paralleled 2N7002s. [1]
> What did you do with the finished 60V pulse?
Sold it.
John
[1] and don't ask what I'm driving the gates with.
Hah, made me laugh!
> [1] and don't ask what I'm driving the gates with.
I can guess. :-)
Me too.
Cheers,
James Arthur
>Winfield Hill wrote:
>> John Larkin wrote:
>>> Winfield Hill wrote:
>>>> John Larkin wrote:
>>>>> This is a transformer-isolated 60 volt pulse, into 50 ohms:
>>>>> ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/HV_mosfet_pulse.jpg
>>>> What are you driving the transformer with?
>>> A pair of paralleled 2N7002s. [1]
>>>
>>>> What did you do with the finished 60V pulse?
>>> Sold it.
>>
>> Hah, made me laugh!
>>
>>> [1] and don't ask what I'm driving the gates with.
>>
>> I can guess. :-)
>
>Me too.
>
Harumph. Bet you can't guess the two extra tricks.
John
I think I've got one of 'em, but guessing out loud
would be rude.
Besides, I'm thinking about slow stuff right now--stepper
motors. They don't need no stinkin' edges.
Cheers,
James Arthur
I vaguely recall that for lower frequencies a bigger iron
core or E frame works better than ferrite cores.
Ferrite and air cores are better for high frequencies
and this is the opposite of high frequency isn't it?
This transformer would be extremely inefficient,
suffering from extremely high hysteresis, right?
It only works for this application because the needed
output is all voltage and almost no current, right?
Did I remember the old conventional theory right?
Back before switching power supplies kind of
rewrote the rules to drop the weight, right?
Microstepping? That's fun.
John
Any photo?
Impedance?
>Was this thread supposed to be educational or instructional?
Who cares, it was an example of a solution to a problem.
>I vaguely recall that for lower frequencies a bigger iron
>core or E frame works better than ferrite cores.
mmm
>Ferrite and air cores are better for high frequencies
>and this is the opposite of high frequency isn't it?
Well, you just need to define what is high and what is low.
I use it at 15uS period time, last time I looked, and that makes
about 66kHz.
Not a good frequency for an iron core.
>This transformer would be extremely inefficient,
>suffering from extremely high hysteresis, right?
No.
Have not noticed.
Hysteresis is a property of the iron used in transformers.
So, what is your brain picture of 'hysteresis'?
>It only works for this application because the needed
>output is all voltage and almost no current, right?
Ooops, not much current, but still > 1 Watt of power.
>Did I remember the old conventional theory right?
Dunno about your theories:-)
>Back before switching power supplies kind of
>rewrote the rules to drop the weight, right?
In this application. where the DC / DC converter supplies some PICs,
one opamp, one big LCD display with LED backlight, several more LEDS,
optocouplers, a MAX232, all in a small box, with 150V 27MHz RF at 2 cm
distance, if using a switcher (I have tried) then harmonics are picked
up by the antenna feed that is in the same box, as it passes through a
SWR transformer circuit.
That causes a S9 signal 100% of the time from the harmonics.
Now you could perhaps shield that switcher, add a metal box in the box, add
half a dozen feed through caps, plus half a dozen ferrite cores as filtering,
and PERHAPS you would get your harmonics below microvolt level.
This little thing makes a positive and negative isolated supply (remember
the opamp), without any noticeable interference on the S meter, without using
a lot of needless power or causing weird supply currents, without all those
feed through caps, without the extra ferrites, and without the extra metal box.
Perhaps you can learn here something about RF design.
Perhaps the idea is wasted on some.
Well, let's see. First, don't use too large a switching mosfet.
The 2n7002 has Ron = 5 ohms, so two in parallel is 2.5 ohms,
more than adequate for a 50-ohm load, and perhaps also for
rapid switching of the mosfet and transformer capacitances.
Larger mosfets would just add slowing capacitances.
Second, drive with lots of gate current. I like to go ahead
and use a power-mosfet driver IC, but you may have used
your favorite 1G or 2G cmos gates - they might be up to the
task with, Third, add discrete n- and p-mosfets to make a
fast power inverter to drive the gate, these should be big
enough, but not too big, perhaps 0.2-ohm Fairchild parts
in power sot-23 packages. Maybe fdn358P and fdn357N,
except those are logic-level gate-drive parts.
Fourth, drive with a bipolar gate voltage, down to say -3V or
more, to get the 2n7002 mosfets switched off rapidly, without
suffering from the gate spreading-resistance slowing delays.
The LM5110 and LM5112 are examples of fast mosfet driver
ICs that have a say +8V and -5V gate-drive capability.
Tell us about your toroid core, and the miniature
coax, that's hard stuff to find, where'd you get it?
Since I dunno where this ringcore I am using came from,
I did some searches...
http://toroids.info/FT82-43.php
Could be this core, but i am usin git at a much lower frequency:
ftp://panteltje.com/pub/ringcore_calc.jpg
But the number of turns, the core size, the core color,
and the tuning cap are in the same order of magnitude for 66 kHz.
I didn't do many of those things, but nice ideas.
But I'd expect the intermediate fets, or using a fet driver chip, to
slow things down... I am getting 2 ns edges. But I don't want to
publish my circuit, fiducial responsibilities and such, so...
John
It's a 5000u ferrite toroid with, as I recall, 4 turns of micro-coax.
The cable is Joy Signal part number 14.
John
> Certainly no elevated temp compatibility. Hot melt glue on PCB
>assemblies has to be one of the most retarded choices on the planet, with
>all the RTVs and epoxies and other adhesives that are in the channel.
Do I have to give all the money back?
John
>On a sunny day (Fri, 2 Jan 2009 20:06:46 -0800 (PST)) it happened Greegor
><Gree...@gmail.com> wrote in
><332b6b27-25bc-487d...@w39g2000prb.googlegroups.com>:
>
>>Was this thread supposed to be educational or instructional?
>
>Who cares, it was an example of a solution to a problem.
>
>>I vaguely recall that for lower frequencies a bigger iron
>>core or E frame works better than ferrite cores.
>
>mmm
>
>
>>Ferrite and air cores are better for high frequencies
>>and this is the opposite of high frequency isn't it?
>
>Well, you just need to define what is high and what is low.
>I use it at 15uS period time, last time I looked, and that makes
>about 66kHz.
>Not a good frequency for an iron core.
I tried some of the exotic/expensive metglas cores as fast pulse
transformers. They have astounding low-frequency permeabilities,
100K-ish (1e6 with tricks) but u falls off with frequency, so ferrites
are better for fast stuff.
John
We recently re-invented the flying capacitor dc-dc converter, using
ssr's. Run in the sub-KHz range with big caps, it's potentially cheap
and quiet.
John
>I tried some of the exotic/expensive metglas cores as fast pulse
>transformers. They have astounding low-frequency permeabilities,
>100K-ish (1e6 with tricks) but u falls off with frequency, so ferrites
>are better for fast stuff.
>
>John
I wanted to stock up on some potcores,
but to my amazement the big shops here in .nl no longer seem
to carry those (conrad.nl dil.nl).
Maybe FARNELL....
I know some people are afraid of inductors, but potcores are sooo nice...
>We recently re-invented the flying capacitor dc-dc converter, using
>ssr's. Run in the sub-KHz range with big caps, it's potentially cheap
>and quiet.
>
>John
Is that all solid state without a transformer?
And isolated too?
> If you were using it on an assembly that I was buying, hell yes.
>
> Your knowledge of adhesives and potting materials must be right up there
>with your grasp of the operation of a vapor phase cleaning system. Right
>around nil.
The gadget with the glued-down transformers bought our building.
ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Painted.JPG
And got us an award.
ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/NIF3.jpg
So your whining makes no sense.
John
>On a sunny day (Sat, 03 Jan 2009 08:37:03 -0800) it happened John Larkin
><jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in
><vo4vl49508ibhmcid...@4ax.com>:
>
>>I tried some of the exotic/expensive metglas cores as fast pulse
>>transformers. They have astounding low-frequency permeabilities,
>>100K-ish (1e6 with tricks) but u falls off with frequency, so ferrites
>>are better for fast stuff.
>>
>>John
>
>
>I wanted to stock up on some potcores,
>but to my amazement the big shops here in .nl no longer seem
>to carry those (conrad.nl dil.nl).
>Maybe FARNELL....
>
>I know some people are afraid of inductors, but potcores are sooo nice...
We're lucky here in the USA. Lots of manufacturers and distributors
stock things like pot cores, and I can usually get free samples, or a
kit, in a day or two. I can fill out a form for TI samples in the
afternoon, and have the parts on my desk before I stagger in the next
morning.
>
>>We recently re-invented the flying capacitor dc-dc converter, using
>>ssr's. Run in the sub-KHz range with big caps, it's potentially cheap
>>and quiet.
>>
>>John
>
>Is that all solid state without a transformer?
Yes,
>And isolated too?
"Isolated" up to the breakdown voltage of the ssr's, 400 volts maybe.
John
>>> Harumph. Bet you can't guess the two extra tricks.
>>>
>>> John
>>
>> I think I've got one of 'em, but guessing out loud
>> would be rude.
>>
>> Besides, I'm thinking about slow stuff right now--stepper
>> motors. They don't need no stinkin' edges.
>
>
> Microstepping? That's fun.
>
> John
>
Yep, that's the stuff.
Cheers,
James
These put 5 volts into 50 ohm loads, so we use small cores and 3
turns. High-voltage versions are bigger.
ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Xfmrs.JPG
John
Aw shucks. I was kind hoping you were getting interested in bigger
power. Can you competitively make 12.5 kV, 200 A, 3 phase subcycle
transfer switches?
Heavy iron tends to be less profitable, and less interesting, than
putting tiny parts on boards. We prefer to build things that won't
break your toe if you drop them.
John
> That is some nasty looking soldering...
Never had one joint fail. The VME module that this plugs into has
something like 6x better field reliability than Bellcore
calculations... 500K hours or so, based on over 1000 unit-years of
history so far.
You seem to dislike everything and everybody. That sort of rage will
kill you before your time.
John
>On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 19:37:01 -0800, John Larkin
><jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 19:10:22 -0800, Archimedes' Lever
>><OneBi...@InfiniteSeries.Org> wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 05 Jan 2009 12:37:06 -0800, John Larkin
>>><jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sat, 3 Jan 2009 06:19:02 +0000 (UTC), va...@silvtrc.org wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>John Larkin <jjla...@highnotlandthistechnologypart.com> wrote:
>>>>>>On Fri, 02 Jan 2009 09:32:33 -0800, Archimedes' Lever
>>>>>><OneBi...@InfiniteSeries.Org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> That piece of shit he made is lame from any transformer winder POV, and
>>>>>>>he then actually glued it down onto a board!
>>>>>
>>>>>>We hand-wind transmission-line transformers, and hot-melt glue them to
>>>>>>boards. We've done thousands, and it works great.
>>>>>
>>>>>Any photo?
>>>>>Impedance?
>>>>
>>>>These put 5 volts into 50 ohm loads, so we use small cores and 3
>>>>turns. High-voltage versions are bigger.
>>>>
>>>>ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Xfmrs.JPG
>>>>
>>>>John
>>>
>>> That is some nasty looking soldering...
>>
>>Never had one joint fail. The VME module that this plugs into has
>>something like 6x better field reliability than Bellcore
>>calculations... 500K hours or so, based on over 1000 unit-years of
>>history so far.
>>
>
>
> I was an In-Process Inspector at one time. I can look at a ten thousand
>node assembly (older, not BGA stuff) and literally spot a single badly
>formed solder joint from a single 30 second (or less) glance. I was well
>loved as such. Those are pretty grainy lookin.
Of course they look grainy. The average pad in that image is around
10x15 pixels, only a few of which are reflecting the illumination
source. The Hope Diamond would look grainy at that resolution.
The "well loved" bit is a little hard to believe.
John
>On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 19:59:29 -0800, Archimedes' Lever
><OneBi...@InfiniteSeries.Org> wrote:
>
[snip]
>>
>> I was an In-Process Inspector at one time. I can look at a ten thousand
>>node assembly (older, not BGA stuff) and literally spot a single badly
>>formed solder joint from a single 30 second (or less) glance. I was well
>>loved as such. Those are pretty grainy lookin.
>
>
>Of course they look grainy. The average pad in that image is around
>10x15 pixels, only a few of which are reflecting the illumination
>source. The Hope Diamond would look grainy at that resolution.
>
>The "well loved" bit is a little hard to believe.
>
>John
>
Not if you're the factory "queen" ;-)
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine Sometimes I even put it in the food
>Of course they look grainy. The average pad in that image is around
>10x15 pixels, only a few of which are reflecting the illumination
>source. The Hope Diamond would look grainy at that resolution.
I looked and my fist impression was also 'not a very good joint',
but then looked closer and it seems alright with me.
I am one who checks every hand soldered connection *by me*
with a magnifying glass....
Remember something about milspec.. You would not believe the number of joints
that look good but are not.
When I was in the TV repair business bad solder joints was a big
percentage of the faults, especially in the old tube sets, all due to thermal stress.
Hot coils qualify too for thermal stress.
We have some great assemblers and a couple of superb inspectors, not
to mention a lot of expensive optics. Our first concern is electrical
integrity and reliability, and we only consider cosmetics if a joint
is truly repulsive. We have had an insignificant number of field
failures that can be blamed on soldering.
Interestingly, after placing and soldering some hundreds of BGA
packages in-house, with ballpark 500 pins per package, our all-time
BGA soldering failure rate is precisely zero.
John
Scant danger of that, in most cases even very strong humans cannot
lift them. (Over 500 LBS)
Here's our pick-and-place machine for a power transformer...
ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/PP5.JPG
The finished amplifier weighs more than one of our employees.
John