Shingles and Colloidal Silver
Mike Monett
I have posted a brief note on shingles and colloidal silver at
http://www.geocities.com/mrmonett/shingles/0shin.htm
Best Regards,
Michael R. Monett
Mark Rehorst
>I have posted a brief note on shingles and colloidal silver at
Who in their right mind would put silver on their roof? It might
impress the neighbors for a while, but surely it would tarnish in a
matter of hours...
MR
John W Hall
<rehor...@netscape.net> wrote:
>Who in their right mind would put silver on their roof? It might
>impress the neighbors for a while, but surely it would tarnish in a
>matter of hours...
Aha!. This reminds me of a minor peeve...
I have a Hitachi stereo system with Arrow lever switches, and about
every five years I have to dis-assemble one switch to clean off the
silver sulphide and burnish the contacts, which measure over 30 ohms
when closed.. Hitachi could have prevented the problem by passing
sufficient current to prevent the problem (another similar switch does
not have a problem), or by not using these switches. Arrow could stop
using silver, and go for $0.0000001 worth of gold, or perhaps
beryllium copper. I also have a Metz (very expensive) photo flash gun
that has silver contacts that also go black, but are saved by the
severe wiping action of inserting the plug.
Where I live there are very low (we're told) levels of hydrogen
sulphide in the atmosphere, which apparently escapes from natural gas
"sour gas" processing plants, which remove the sulphur/sulfur before
the gas enters the pipeline.
John W Hall, Calgary, Alberta, Canada.
Helping People Prosper in the Information Age.
Bob Wilson
wweexxss...@telusplanet.net says...
While all these replies to the OP are interesting, one canot help but wonder
what they have to do with the OP's original point relating to the use of
colloidal silver as a sort of antibiotic or antiviral chemical. Personally,
I think this is more like witchcraft than anything else, and its benefits
are mostly in the mind, but there are a hell of a lot of (often totally
flaky) websites out there extolling its virtues.
Bob.
Paul Burke
> I think this is more like witchcraft than anything else, and its benefits
> are mostly in the mind,
Nonesense. The benefits of silver bullets for curing werewolves are well
established, so I think colloidal silver ought to work for some disease
(perhaps it would be better for lupus). And garlic works against
vampires, so extract of garlic ought to work against mosquitos. And
don't firget a baked onion for curing cancer (I got this one out of a
Victorian women's magazine). You hold it while still hot against the
OPPOSITE side from the cancer. If it doesn't work, perhaps it wasn't
baked right, or wasn't hot enough, or wasn't exactly opposite the
cancer.
Paul Burke
Mike Monett
[...]
> While all these replies to the OP are interesting, one canot help but wonder
> what they have to do with the OP's original point relating to the use of
> colloidal silver as a sort of antibiotic or antiviral chemical. Personally,
> I think this is more like witchcraft than anything else, and its benefits
> are mostly in the mind, but there are a hell of a lot of (often totally
> flaky) websites out there extolling its virtues.
> Bob.
First, my disclaimer.
DISCLAIMER: I specifically make no medical claims for the treatment,
prevention, cure, or mitigation of any disease. I am reporting my
own experience, which may have no relation to any medical condition
you may have. If you have a medical condition, I recommend that you
see a health professional. The information found here is for
educational use only and is not meant to be a prescription for any
disease or illness.
There is nothing new about silver as an antibiotic. When you were
born, doctors put silver nitrate drops in your eyes to prevent
infection. This turned your eyes black for a couple of days, and
doctors could tell if they missed anyone.
Silverware became popular almost 1,900 years ago for health reasons.
Physicians advised their wealthy patients to only eat with silver if
they wanted to stay healthy. During the 14th century, about 25% of
the people in Europe died from the bubonic plague which swept
through the continent. Wealthy people gave their children silver
spoons to suck on to forestall the plague. That's where the
expression, "Born with a silver spoon in your mouth" came from.
Silver was the primary antibiotic before World War II, when
antibiotic drugs were discovered. This led to the rise of powerful
pharmaceutic companies who found it much more profitable to persuade
doctors to stop using silver and start using their drugs instead.
Due to the rise of drug-resistant bacteria, silver is finding its
way back into hospitals. The Japanese now manufacture a wide range
of silver-related products, such as silver-coated cloth for wound
dressing, and so on.
If you go to an intesive care burn unit, your will find silver used
in many products to prevent infection. It is embedded in catheters.
Many people die from infection when large areas of skin are
destroyed by fire. Gauze is soaked with colloidal silver and swabbed
on wounds to kill the bacteria.
Colloidal silver used to be very expensive. Thanks to the articles
by Mark Metcalf and Peter Lindemann, anyone can make it themselves.
There are many diseases that cannot be satisfactorily treated by
drugs. Shingles is one of them.
As in anything, you will find hype and shady characters trying to
sell anything on the internet. But there is little reason to
purchase their product when it is so easy and inexpensive to make.
If you are sick, go and see your doctor. If he cures you, do the
same next time.
If he cannot cure you, look into alternative medicine. Find one that
suits you. If it doesn't work, look for another.
Many people chose colloidal silver because it works. There are many
reports appearing on the web of studies by established medical
institutions like Bethesda and UCLA, that show the action of silver
ions on bacteria.
Without exception, the bugs die.
I was not sure colloidal silver would have any effect on viruses. My
experience tells me it has the effect on viruses as it has on
bacteria. They die.
I have updated my web page, and invite anyone who is interested to
review it. http://www.geocities.com/mrmonett/shingles/0shin.htm
Winter is coming. Flu season is right around the corner. I am not
concerned about getting sick from taking flu shots.
Good Health and Best Regards,
Michael R. Monett
Mark Rehorst
newsgroup about electronic design.
MR
Bob Wilson
rehor...@netscape.net says...
>
>I think I missed something. Please tell me again why this posted in a
>newsgroup about electronic design.
Probably because the method of making colloidal siver involves electrical
energy, and apparently the OP must have though that anything related to
electricity is electronic. More to the point, my experience with promoters
of the very questionable benefits of the stuff tend to promote it with
missionary zeal, and seem to be on a crusade to let the rest of the world
know about it. A quick perusal through the net, using "colloidal silver" as
a search word, shows just how flaky some of its promoters are.
Bob.
Gerry Schneider
(Huckster on street corner)
"I have here an amulet which will protect you from tigers!"
(Baffled onlooker)
"But there are no tigers around here"
(Huckster)
"See? It's working already!"
Tim
> "I have here an amulet which will protect you from tigers!"
>
> (Baffled onlooker)
> "But there are no tigers around here"
>
> (Huckster)
> "See? It's working already!"
That was from The Simpsons:
Lisa: "Look, I have a rock that repells tigers!"
Homer: (erm, I forget what's said here)
Lisa: "Well, I don't see any tigers around..."
Homer: "... I'll take it!" (and points a bill at Lisa, who hesitates, then
takes it.)
:)
There's gotta be a word for that kind of thing.. it ain't the placebo effect
though. That's the OP's point... :^)
Tim
--
"Yeah, and I'm not easily impressed. Whoa, a blue car!"
- Homer Simpson
Michael A. Terrell
How about the P. T. Barnum Syndrome? (There's a sucker born every
minute!)
Mike Monett
[...]
> > There's gotta be a word for that kind of thing.. it ain't the placebo effect
> > though. That's the OP's point... :^)
> >
> > Tim
> >
> > --
> > "Yeah, and I'm not easily impressed. Whoa, a blue car!"
> > - Homer Simpson
>
> How about the P. T. Barnum Syndrome? (There's a sucker born every
> minute!)
Well, I posted the article here because this is where I hang out. I don't
post often, but I try to make my posts useful. A few of the regulars know
me.
The electolysis of silver is electronics in the deepest sense. We are
familiar with resistors and transistor, and how they work to ampllify
signals.
But the act of putting a voltage across two silver electrodes in
distilled water is something new. There is some chemistry involved, but
the end result is silver ions and particles of silver in solution.
It kills bacteria and viruses.
You drink this. You put it on cuts. You apply it to warts. Everywhere the
silver meets a bacteria or virus, the outcome is certain. The bacteria or
virus dies. You get better.
I know this sounds like hype. I thought so when a good friend convinced
me to try. Engineers are trained to be skeptical, and I did it only
because there was no apparent effect.
When I moved away, I stopped taking it. I never got sick while I was
taking it, and I figured I didn't need it.
But when I got shingles, and the silver killed the virus in one day, I
became convinced. It works. The stories you read are true.
It will be an uphill battle, but I hope to persuade some of the regulars
here to try it. If you get a cold or the flu, give it a try. It will cost
you less than the antibiotics (which cannot work against viruses)
You cannot be hurt by trying it. I would not even mention it if there
were any risk. The only problem you might encounter is if it kills a load
of bacteria you are carrying, and they release their toxins into your
body. This may make you feel sick for a few days. You will recover. Not
everyone experiences this problem. Taking broad-spectrum antibiotics is
worse. It kills the friendly bacteria you need for digestion.
While you are recovering, the silver will have done its work. The
bacteria or virus that was causing you problems will be gone.
I am willing to answer any questions that anyone may have.
I hope it is possible to open a channel to discuss this topic in this
newsgroup. Some of the most brilliant engineers and scientists you can
find anywhere are here. I would like to find out why this works, and if
there is any way to improve the simple methods that have been used to
make it.
As more bacteria develop immunity to the strongest antibiotics available,
colloidal silver may be our only hope. We need to understand it much
better than we do now.
I ask for your help.
Tim
> silver meets a bacteria or virus, the outcome is certain. The bacteria or
> virus dies. You get better.
>
> I know this sounds like hype.
Especially since it sounds like 1. a cure-all, and 2. too good to be true
(comes from #1).
But whatever.
Hey, right now I'm coughing up stuff.. but since that's a natural part of
the process (expelling dead junk), it wouldn't be good to try to do something.
Hmm, I must be getting over it - my throat isn't sore at all.
Mike Monett
>
> > You drink this. You put it on cuts. You apply it to warts. Everywhere the
> > silver meets a bacteria or virus, the outcome is certain. The bacteria or
> > virus dies. You get better.
> >
> > I know this sounds like hype.
>
> Especially since it sounds like 1. a cure-all, and 2. too good to be true
> (comes from #1).
The person who recommended it worked in health science.
At the time, I had a serious problem with Stachybotrous mould.
Several weeks after I started taking silver, I began expelling huge mouthfulls of the most
foul black substance I have ever seen. I have seen pictures of mold growing in peoples
lungs, and found it is much more common than we know. Perhaps 30% of the population is
infected with mold of one kind or another.
The silver killed it. Yes, it sounds too good to be true.
That is why I post the information, and why I am here to ask for your help to understand it
better.
Best Regards,
Michael R. Monett
http://www3.sympatico.ca/add.automation
Bob Wilson
>Well, I posted the article here because this is where I hang out. I don't
>post often, but I try to make my posts useful. A few of the regulars know
>me.
>
>The electolysis of silver is electronics in the deepest sense. We are
>familiar with resistors and transistor, and how they work to ampllify
>signals.
There is a rather large difference between "electronics" and "electricity".
Electolysis has nothing at all to do with electronics. Making colloidal
silver is more closely related to electroplating, than to anything else.
>But the act of putting a voltage across two silver electrodes in
>distilled water is something new. There is some chemistry involved, but
>the end result is silver ions and particles of silver in solution.
>
>It kills bacteria and viruses.
Yes, as do many things. Silver nitrate has been an antibacterial, and
general sterilizing agent for over a century. Nowadays, hostpitals also
recognize silver's toxic effects and universally discontinued its use since
the 1950s.
>You drink this. You put it on cuts. You apply it to warts. Everywhere the
>silver meets a bacteria or virus, the outcome is certain. The bacteria or
>virus dies. You get better.
You can also read articles published by reliable sources (as oppposed to the
flakes that often "publish" on the internet), and see that a lot of this
"colloidal silver" fad is not only hype, but can be dangerous as well.
>I know this sounds like hype. I thought so when a good friend convinced
>me to try. Engineers are trained to be skeptical, and I did it only
>because there was no apparent effect.
>
>When I moved away, I stopped taking it. I never got sick while I was
>taking it, and I figured I didn't need it.
You will, if there is sufficient levels of concentration. Silver, in any
ionic or finely divided form, is well known to be toxic.
>But when I got shingles, and the silver killed the virus in one day, I
>became convinced. It works. The stories you read are true.
Must have been a serious bout of the disease if you could "cure" it in ONE
day, by ANY method.
>It will be an uphill battle, but I hope to persuade some of the regulars
>here to try it. If you get a cold or the flu, give it a try. It will cost
>you less than the antibiotics (which cannot work against viruses)
This is nonsense. You act as if the scientific community has never heard of
the stuff, and it is some new magical cure. Many sources on the web claim it
is the cure for everything from hangnails to hairballs. The fact is that
there is a large amount of documented scientific data on this over many,
many years. The problem is that it is not very positive, and that just
doesn't fit well with the evangelistic opinions of "born again" promoters of
the stuff.
>You cannot be hurt by trying it.
This is absolute bullshit! Yes, if it is diluted enough, you will suffer no
ill effects. But there is clear evidence of toxic effects when
concentrations are too high, and/or consumption continues for an extended
time. Among the most accessible places for this info is the internet itself.
One interesting point is that some organizations have purchased bottles or
vials of so-called colloidal silver from numerous sources. The main result
was that most of them were shown to contain essentially negligible levels of
silver. In short, they were sucker bait! One proof of this is the
exhorbitant cost of a small vial of the stuff, that contains only micrograms
of silver; far, FAR less than is in a roll of ordinarly film that sells for
a couple of dollars. The electrolysis process also is dead simple and costs
essentially nothing, so it is obvious that this is mainly a get rich quick
scheme.
>I would not even mention it if there were any risk.
And you are the expert in what any risks might be? Would you mind letting us
know what your actual credentials are in the physiochemical field?
>The only problem you might encounter is if it kills a load
>of bacteria you are carrying, and they release their toxins into your
>body. This may make you feel sick for a few days.
You don't understand much about bacterial biological processes, do you? So,
let's see now. You take a bunch of this stuff, then you feel sick. But
naturally, this has nothing to do with having just ingested silver; a known
biological poison. No, no, no! Why it REALLY is the result of those nasty
bacteria who are supposedly "carrying around" a load of toxins (never mind
that bacteria don't do it this way), then suddenly releasing them. Yeah,
right!
>I hope it is possible to open a channel to discuss this topic in this
>newsgroup. Some of the most brilliant engineers and scientists you can
>find anywhere are here. I would like to find out why this works, and if
>there is any way to improve the simple methods that have been used to
>make it.
>
>As more bacteria develop immunity to the strongest antibiotics available,
>colloidal silver may be our only hope. We need to understand it much
>better than we do now.
You don't need to "open a channel". Like many people who seem to be blind to
existing information, you need to open your mind. I know a number of people
who are fixated with this "cure for everything". All of them seem to display
the same lack of interest in looking at the full range of facts, and seem to
take any claim of this material's success (no matter how flaky and
unreliable the source may be) as sufficient "proof" that they no longer need
to look at both sides.
Bob.
Mike Monett
[...]
Your post is focused on silver nitrate and other forms of silver that
have been proven detrimental. Colloidal silver is a different substance.
There is no record of any detrimental effect of taking colloidal silver,
except for the possibility of killing off bacteria and the release of
toxins which I described in my post.
You may wish to look at the records of the FDA for evidence of any harm
from the use of colloidal silver.
They are unable to find any evidence of harm. See
http://www.sunstoneherbals.com/learningcenter/colloidalsilver/Ic-Colloidal-Silver-Safe.htm
Best Regards,
Michael R. Monett
http://www3.sympatico.ca/add.automation
Michael A. Terrell
I'm sorry. My comment wasn't aimed at you, I just forgot the smiley
face. It was meant as a comment about how some people will believe
anything.
Ken
Mike Monett wrote:
>
> Bob Wilson wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> Your post is focused on silver nitrate and other forms of silver that
> have been proven detrimental. Colloidal silver is a different substance.
>
> There is no record of any detrimental effect of taking colloidal silver,
> except for the possibility of killing off bacteria and the release of
> toxins which I described in my post.
>
> You may wish to look at the records of the FDA for evidence of any harm
> from the use of colloidal silver.
>
> They are unable to find any evidence of harm. See
>
> http://www.sunstoneherbals.com/learningcenter/colloidalsilver/Ic-Colloidal-Silver-Safe.h
I am instantly suspicious of any web address that has 'herbals' in it as
an informed source of scientific knowledge. If you can find a credible
source of information from someone like www.cdc.gov I might be willing
to listen.
--
Ken Tyler
Win Hill
>
> The person who recommended it worked in health science.
> At the time, I had a serious problem with Stachybotrous mould.
> Several weeks after I started taking silver, I began expelling huge
> mouthfulls of the most foul black substance I have ever seen. I have
> more common than we know. Perhaps 30% of the population is infected
> with mold of one kind or another.
>
> The silver killed it. Yes, it sounds too good to be true.
>
> That is why I post the information, and why I am here to ask for
> your help to understand it better.
Thanks Michael, I know of the severity of your former problem and
dearly wished then for you to leave and solve it somehow. I'm so
glad that you did. Even though we live at the lowest elevation in
our neighborhood, we live in a place that's completely free of any
mold; we have a 5-meter-lowered back yard that takes the water-table
flow right on along to an adjacent lake. Many of my neighbors are
not so fortunate, and what you've learned may be helpful to them.
Thanks,
- Win
Winfield Hill
Rowland Institute for Science
100 Edwin Land Blvd
Cambridge, MA 02142-1297
peter crowcroft
wrote:
>
>But the act of putting a voltage across two silver electrodes in
>distilled water is something new. There is some chemistry involved, but
>the end result is silver ions and particles of silver in solution.
>
if I remember my electrochemistry you get hydrogen gas at the cathode
electrode and silver oxide precipitated at the anode. Colloidal silver
itself is NOT produced. (There is the Bredig Reaction involving lots
of energy for that.)
You need non-distilled water otherwise the current will not be
conducted.
If any silver metal was produced (unlikely) it would form as a layer
(Ag+ reduced to silver) on the anode. It is called electroplating and
the chemistry of electroplating is well understood. Silver metal as
colloidal silver would not be formed. It cannot.
Anything you see 'colloidal' is silver oxide particles suspended in
the water.
There is more ionic silver in normal milk and mushrooms than there is
ionic silver in solution from these 'quack' silver cells.
The ONLY use of silver in medicine is in the treatment for burns.
Silver Silfadiazine.
>It kills bacteria and viruses.
>
>You drink this. You put it on cuts. You apply it to warts. Everywhere the
>silver meets a bacteria or virus, the outcome is certain. The bacteria or
>virus dies. You get better.
>
This is pseudoscience. And proven to be so.
>
>But when I got shingles, and the silver killed the virus in one day, I
>became convinced. It works. The stories you read are true.
>
No they are not.
>It will be an uphill battle, but I hope to persuade some of the regulars
>here to try it. If you get a cold or the flu, give it a try. It will cost
>you less than the antibiotics (which cannot work against viruses)
>
>You cannot be hurt by trying it. I would not even mention it if there
Rubbish, but the wrong newsgroup to follow this....
>
>I hope it is possible to open a channel to discuss this topic in this
>newsgroup. Some of the most brilliant engineers and scientists you can
>find anywhere are here. I would like to find out why this works, and if
You need medical qualifications to follow the actions of trace
substances in the body. Silver is not a trace element required by the
body.
>As more bacteria develop immunity to the strongest antibiotics available,
>colloidal silver may be our only hope. We need to understand it much
>better than we do now.
>
There is the world of difference between the reactions of silver ions
in a petri disk and silver ions in the acid environment of the
stomach. Silver ions are used in cosmetics to stop mound growth.
Ingestion of too much silver ions can and does cause argyria - a
condition where the skin turns brown.
peter crowcroft
http://kitsrus.com
PO Box 88458, Sham Shui Po
Hong Kong
John Woodgate
wrote (in <3BC8A8...@yahoo.com>) about 'LONG Re: Shingles and
Colloidal Silver', on Sat, 13 Oct 2001:
>It kills bacteria and viruses.
>
>You drink this. You put it on cuts. You apply it to warts. Everywhere the
>silver meets a bacteria or virus, the outcome is certain. The bacteria or
>virus dies. You get better.
>
[snip]
> Taking broad-spectrum antibiotics is
>worse. It kills the friendly bacteria you need for digestion.
How does the colloidal silver know which are friendly bacteria?
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Eat mink and be dreary!
John Woodgate
<pe...@kitsrus.com> wrote (in <ogthstsvru1p8fuus...@4ax.co
m>) about 'LONG Re: Shingles and Colloidal Silver', on Sun, 14 Oct 2001:
>if I remember my electrochemistry you get hydrogen gas at the cathode
>electrode and silver oxide precipitated at the anode.
No, oxygen gas evolution.
> Colloidal silver
>itself is NOT produced. (There is the Bredig Reaction involving lots
>of energy for that.)
I think that's too sweeping a statement. The applied voltage is much
greater than that required to initiate electrolysis. The reported
appearance of a black substance indicates attrition of the anode due to
cavitation by gas bubbles at extreme pressures and temperatures.
>
>You need non-distilled water otherwise the current will not be
>conducted.
>
>If any silver metal was produced (unlikely) it would form as a layer
>(Ag+ reduced to silver) on the anode.
Pardon? How can anything be *reduced* at the anode?
Mike Monett
> [snip]
> > Taking broad-spectrum antibiotics is
> >worse. It kills the friendly bacteria you need for digestion.
>
> How does the colloidal silver know which are friendly bacteria?
> Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
> Eat mink and be dreary!
Hi John,
According to current explanations, the friendly bacteria are in the small
intestine. However, the stomach contains a weak (~5%) solution of
hydochloric acid.
The silver ions are converted to silver chloride when they enter the
stomach. Silver chloride is insoluble and passes through the intestine
with little or no harm to the friendly bacteria.
The silver particles enter the bloodstream through the stomach wall. They
circulate and come in contact with invading bacteria and viruses and
disable them. The silver particles are eliminated through the kidneys and
pass out of the body in the urine.
Some people recommend holding the colloidal silver in the mouth so it can
be absorbed directly into the bloodstream.
The human blood contains a small percentage of salt in solution. The
silver ions combine with the chlorine to produce silver chloride, which
again is insoluble and passes out of the body by way of the kidneys.
The silver particles are distributed by the bloodstream and kill the
bacteria and viruses they come in contact with, and leave the body by way
of the kidneys.
There are some parts of the body that do not have much blood circulation,
such as the eyes. I have successfully stopped an eye infection with a few
drops of colloidal silver applied to my eye. I repeated the application
after a few hours. At the end of the third application, the infection was
gone.
Robert
Mike Monett wrote:
>
> They
> circulate and come in contact with invading bacteria and viruses and
> disable them.
Just exactly what is the molecular mechanism by which that occurs?
>
> The silver particles are distributed by the bloodstream and kill the
> bacteria and viruses they come in contact with, and ...
Just exactly what is the molecular mechanism by which that occurs?
>
> There are some parts of the body that do not have much blood circulation,
> such as the eyes. I have successfully stopped an eye infection with a few
> drops of colloidal silver applied to my eye. I repeated the application
> after a few hours. At the end of the third application, the infection was
> gone.
Hmmm...do you think it will cure anthrax?
John Woodgate
Colloidal Silver', on Sun, 14 Oct 2001:
>According to current explanations, the friendly bacteria are in the small
>intestine. However, the stomach contains a weak (~5%) solution of
>hydochloric acid
Thank you for your reply. I think the stomach acid can be stronger than
that. But I would expect both the stomach acid and the blood to
flocculate the colloidal silver immediately, because any electrolyte
would do that. Of course, neither the chloride or the bicarbonate ions
in the blood will attack metallic silver.
--
Tim
> intestine. However, the stomach contains a weak (~5%) solution of
> hydochloric acid.
>
> The silver ions are converted to silver chloride when they enter the
> stomach. Silver chloride is insoluble and passes through the intestine
> with little or no harm to the friendly bacteria.
>
> The silver particles enter the bloodstream through the stomach wall. They
> circulate and come in contact with invading bacteria and viruses and
> disable them. The silver particles are eliminated through the kidneys and
> pass out of the body in the urine.
>
> Some people recommend holding the colloidal silver in the mouth so it can
> be absorbed directly into the bloodstream.
>
> The human blood contains a small percentage of salt in solution. The
> silver ions combine with the chlorine to produce silver chloride, which
> again is insoluble and passes out of the body by way of the kidneys.
>
> The silver particles are distributed by the bloodstream and kill the
> bacteria and viruses they come in contact with, and leave the body by way
> of the kidneys.
>
> There are some parts of the body that do not have much blood circulation,
> such as the eyes. I have successfully stopped an eye infection with a few
> drops of colloidal silver applied to my eye. I repeated the application
> after a few hours. At the end of the third application, the infection was
> gone.
Sorry to say it, but the proceeding explanation itself sounds flaky (and if
you haven't noticed, I've been trying to keep an open mind on this one).
Mike Monett
[...]
> > That is why I post the information, and why I am here to ask for
> > your help to understand it better.
>
> Thanks Michael, I know of the severity of your former problem and
> dearly wished then for you to leave and solve it somehow. I'm so
> glad that you did. Even though we live at the lowest elevation in
> our neighborhood, we live in a place that's completely free of any
> mold; we have a 5-meter-lowered back yard that takes the water-table
> flow right on along to an adjacent lake. Many of my neighbors are
> not so fortunate, and what you've learned may be helpful to them.
>
> Thanks,
> - Win
>
> Winfield Hill
> Rowland Institute for Science
> 100 Edwin Land Blvd
> Cambridge, MA 02142-1297
Thanks Win,
Just a couple of things. It can be tricky to estimate the height of the
water table. For example, my sister's well is 10 feet deep, and is about
half full most of the time. In contrast, the nearest neighbor is about
500 feet away across the road, and they had to drill their well 200 feet
down before they hit water.
My sister's basement always has standing water due to the water table.
The house was built before modern building codes came into effect. There
is no vapor barrier in the walls, which is where the mold grows. A modern
home built to code standards will probably have no problems with mold,
but it is a good idea to check if the inhabitants experience wierd health
symptoms.
Stachy is particularly lethal to infants. They die from bleeding lungs.
About the only way I know to check for mold is to remove sections of the
wall, especially in areas that may have suffered water damage. If mold is
found, and it is identified as Stachy or related molds, the only way I
know to get rid of it is to tear down all the walls.
If someone knows they have a mold problem and fails to disclose it, they
may be liable for damages if they try to sell the house. For this reason,
if you are looking to buy or rent, and suspect that a house may have
conditions suitable for mold growth, I would look for another. I found an
article that estimates 30% of the houses in Canada have the problem. We
are a sick nation!
Despite all the things I did to try and overcome the problem, the only
real solution was to move away.
My sister plans to bulldoze the house when they move.
Mike Monett
I forgot to mention your first suggestion was to move away.
You were right all along.
Regards,
Michael R. Monett
Mike Monett
[...]
> Sorry to say it, but the proceeding explanation itself sounds flaky (and if
> you haven't noticed, I've been trying to keep an open mind on this one).
>
> Tim
>
> --
> "Yeah, and I'm not easily impressed. Whoa, a blue car!"
> - Homer Simpson
Hi Tim,
Not much is known about how colloidal silver works. I am only able to
give you the best explanation I have.
Can you point out the sections that make no sense, or is it just an
overall impression?
Mike Monett
Hi John,
Yes. That's the point. The current knowledge points to the silver
particles as being the catalyst that destroys the bacteria and virus.
However, the quantities are very small. There is a trend away from trying
to achieve high levels of silver in the solution, and to use solutions
containing from 1 to 10 parts-per-million. This seems to work just as
well, if not better.
Of this level, only 1 to 25% is in the form of particles, the rest being
ionic silver.
Some people recommend taking from 2 to 4 ounces per day. When this is
diluted in the blood, the resulting silver level is much lower.
The amazing thing is how inefficient the process is, and the minute
quantity needed to achieve results. The answer is the silver is only a
catalyst, and is not consumed in the process. So it is free to do the
same to the next bacteria or virus.
I hasten to add that nobody knows how silver can kill a virus. It is not
even clear how it kills bacteria.
John Woodgate
(in <tsjimta...@corp.supernews.com>) about 'LONG Re: Shingles and
Colloidal Silver', on Sun, 14 Oct 2001:
>Sorry to say it, but the proceeding explanation itself sounds flaky (and if
>you haven't noticed, I've been trying to keep an open mind on this one).
I think you need to be specific about the places where flakes occur.
Otherwise, your point is weak.
--
John Woodgate
wrote (in <3BC9B8D0...@earthlink.net>) about 'LONG Re: Shingles
and Colloidal Silver', on Sun, 14 Oct 2001:
>
>
>Mike Monett wrote:
>
>>
>> They
>> circulate and come in contact with invading bacteria and viruses and
>> disable them.
>
> Just exactly what is the molecular mechanism by which that occurs?
>
>>
>> The silver particles are distributed by the bloodstream and kill the
>> bacteria and viruses they come in contact with, and ...
>
>Just exactly what is the molecular mechanism by which that occurs?
Unfortunately, an explanation is all too easy. Among the myriad proteins
on the surface of each organism, there are bound to be some that will
form toxic and/or dysfunctional metalloproteins with the silver.
Proving it is another matter, but it shouldn't be all that difficult in
vitro. No-one seems to have done that, though, which has to be
suggestive.
>
>>
>> There are some parts of the body that do not have much blood circulation,
>> such as the eyes. I have successfully stopped an eye infection with a few
>> drops of colloidal silver applied to my eye. I repeated the application
>> after a few hours. At the end of the third application, the infection was
>> gone.
>
>Hmmm...do you think it will cure anthrax?
It may kill anthrax, if it kills any bacteria.
--
Mike Monett
>
> Mike Monett wrote:
>
> >
> > They
> > circulate and come in contact with invading bacteria and viruses and
> > disable them.
>
> Just exactly what is the molecular mechanism by which that occurs?
Nobody really knows. However, scientists are aware that few bacteria can
survive around silver mines. They were surprised to find a strain of a
common soil bacteria living deep in a silver mine. The url is
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_533000/533416.stm
> >
> > The silver particles are distributed by the bloodstream and kill the
> > bacteria and viruses they come in contact with, and ...
>
> Just exactly what is the molecular mechanism by which that occurs?
> >
> > There are some parts of the body that do not have much blood circulation,
> > such as the eyes. I have successfully stopped an eye infection with a few
> > drops of colloidal silver applied to my eye. I repeated the application
> > after a few hours. At the end of the third application, the infection was
> > gone.
>
> Hmmm...do you think it will cure anthrax?
There was a discussion on anthrax this week on the silver list
http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html?by=Date&n=2
I did not follow the discussion, so I don't know all the results.
Regards,
Michael R. Monett
Mike Monett
[...]
> > They are unable to find any evidence of harm. See
> >
> > http://www.sunstoneherbals.com/learningcenter/colloidalsilver/Ic-Colloidal-Silver-Safe.h
>
> I am instantly suspicious of any web address that has 'herbals' in it as
> an informed source of scientific knowledge. If you can find a credible
> source of information from someone like www.cdc.gov I might be willing
> to listen.
>
> --
> Ken Tyler
Hi Ken,
I normally try to avoid referencing commercial sites due to the
perception of bias.
However, the penalty for forging a government document is quite severe. I
think this document is valid. It is easy to prove - just write the FDA
and ask for a copy.
The FDA is monitoring all commercial web sites involved with colloidal
silver, and is shutting down sites that claim positive benefits or
post testimonials from users.
http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html?by=Date&n=2
However, their justification for this involves known problems with silver
nitrate and silver protein compounds. There have been no reported
problems with colloidal silver, which is a different substance.
If the FDA report showing they cannot find any example of harm from the
use of colloidal silver were false, the sites that show the report would
be quickly shut down and sued.
I think it is clear the report is genuine.
John Woodgate
Colloidal Silver', on Sun, 14 Oct 2001:
>even clear how it kills bacteria.
I posted a *plausible* explanation, which should be easy to prove or
disprove. If the silver complexes with coat proteins and makes them
toxic and/or dysfunctional, it will do that for viruses as well as for
bacteria.
Mike Monett
Can you supply any links?
I do provide links from reputable institutions showing that colloidal
silver does kill bacteria. Look at the bottom of the page.
It is estimated you have to drink over 800 gallons of colloidal silver
per day to reach the level required to cause argria. Not many people can
do that. I have temporarily lost the url, but will post if you want.
I show the equations for the electrolysis in my article
http://www.geocities.com/mrmonett/shingles/0shin.htm
You are right about distilled water taking a long time. It used to take
over 2 hours using 18 volts.
That is why I went to 160 volts. The curves showing the current rise for
18, 27, and 160 volts are included.
Bob Wilson
>According to current explanations, the friendly bacteria are in the small
>intestine. However, the stomach contains a weak (~5%) solution of
>hydochloric acid.
>
>The silver ions are converted to silver chloride when they enter the
>stomach. Silver chloride is insoluble and passes through the intestine
>with little or no harm to the friendly bacteria.
This is complete bullshit!
First, the silver you claim to speak of is "colloidal", colloids are NOT
ionic, but groups of 10 to 100 or so of ATOMS.
Second, atomic silver is UNAFFECTED by any common acid since it is well
below hydrogen on the electromotive scale. Silver in any metallic or atomic
form (and that includes any colloidal groups of atoms) is unaffected by any
common acid, except concentrated nitric. Exposing silver in this form to 5%
HCL will NOT result in "silver chloride". You need to learn a little about
basic high school chemistry.
Third, if the silver IS in ionic form, then you could ingest ANY soluable
silver salt (such as silver nitrate) to get the "silver ions" you mention.
In solution, any silver salt solution is silver ions and whatever cations
the salt originally was associated with. Exposing this to HCl will NOT
result in "silver chloride" since as any high school chemistry student
knows, silver chloride is itelf ionic in an aquious solution, so the silver
ions will not have changed at all when a reagent (such as HCl) is added;
they'll still be just silver ions, unattached to any chloride, or any other
cation..
>The silver particles enter the bloodstream through the stomach wall.
So now they're "silver particles", are they? Particles cannot pass through
cell walls. Get your story straight.
>They
>circulate and come in contact with invading bacteria and viruses and
>disable them. The silver particles are eliminated through the kidneys and
>pass out of the body in the urine.
>
>Some people recommend holding the colloidal silver in the mouth so it can
>be absorbed directly into the bloodstream.
>The human blood contains a small percentage of salt in solution. The
>silver ions combine with the chlorine to produce silver chloride, which
>again is insoluble and passes out of the body by way of the kidneys.
What silver ions? You started this whole thing by claiming that this was
COLLOIDAL silver. No colloid is in ionic form, but is in fact a grouping of
a few tens of atoms in a "clump". Colloids CANNOT pass through cell
membranes, which they would HAVE to do to get into the blood system from the
mouth.
>The silver particles are distributed by the bloodstream and kill the
>bacteria and viruses they come in contact with, and leave the body by way
>of the kidneys.
>
>There are some parts of the body that do not have much blood circulation,
>such as the eyes. I have successfully stopped an eye infection with a few
>drops of colloidal silver applied to my eye. I repeated the application
>after a few hours. At the end of the third application, the infection was
>gone.
So what? For 100 years or more, silver nitrate has been known (and in the
past extensively used) to treat eye infections. There is nothing new or
miraculous about this. Soluable silver (Silver nitrate was the easiest to
obtain) in any form, is a strong antibiotic. It is also dangerous, which is
why it is no longer used.
Most of what you have said violates scientific principles. Your
pseudoscientific doubletalk is wasting bandwidth.
Bob.
Bob Wilson
You forgot, John, it doesn't kill "friendly" bacteria. Those are the ones
with the little "F" stenciled on their cell walls.
Bob.
Bob Wilson
>
>Robert wrote:
>>
>> Mike Monett wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > They
>> > circulate and come in contact with invading bacteria and viruses and
>> > disable them.
>>
>> Just exactly what is the molecular mechanism by which that occurs?
>
>Nobody really knows. However, scientists are aware that few bacteria can
>survive around silver mines. They were surprised to find a strain of a
>common soil bacteria living deep in a silver mine.
So what? There are bacteria that line in hot spots on the ocean floor that
feed on H2S.
Ever notice that the usual reply to a pointed scientific question put to New
Age nuts, is "Noooobody really knows!". Then they point you to what they
claim is an authoritative source of information, that has a website address
that has "herbal" in it.
Bob.
Bob Wilson
As I pointed out in a parallel post, almost NONE of it holds water
scientifically.
Bob.
Bob Wilson
Wrong. It would be genuine, if it were available from the FDA, not if it
came from some new age health site.
Bob.
Mike Monett
Hi Bob,
Two types of silver are produced during electrolysis. Silver ions,
and silver particles.
I did not mention the particles in my article at
http://www.geocities.com/mrmonett/shingles/0shin.htm
This was written while I was suffering from the pain of shingles,
and every keystroke caused severe pain. However, I include the
particles in every relevant discussion in this thread.
I show a simple test for the presence of silver ions in my article.
A company that specializes in analyzing colloids has written a
number of articles on colloidal silver. They have no commercial
interest in selling product, and the articles are free. The company
is Silver Colloids, Inc, and the home page is
http://www.silver-colloids.com
The page with the articles is
http://www.silver-colloids.com/Papers/papers.html
An article relevant to this discussion is "Determining the
Properties of Colloidal Silver"
http://www.silver-colloids.com/Papers/CSProperties.PDF
I think you will find the description is very close to the one I
gave.
Another article is "Ions, Atoms and Charged Particles"
http://www.silver-colloids.com/Papers/IonsAtoms&ChargedParticles.PDF
Another article describes the measurement of silver in the blood of
a subject who drank a solution of 2.5 ppm colloidal silver.
http://www.silver-colloids.com/Tables/Experiment.PDF
Another article describes measurements of the effectiveness of
colloidal silver in killing bacteria.
http://www.silver-colloids.com/Book/SilverColloids.pdf
Their results are in agreement with other lab reports referenced in
my article. These institutions also have no commercial interest in
colloidal silver.
Your extreme position is not allowing you to make an objective
review of the information on colloidal silver, and you are making
mistakes in your interpretation of my posts.
Mike Monett
[...]
> >I think it is clear the report is genuine.
>
> Wrong. It would be genuine, if it were available from the FDA, not if it
> came from some new age health site.
>
> Bob.
Bob, it did come from the FDA in response to a request under the
Freedom of Information Act. Do you know the penalty for forging a
government document?
Mike Monett
>
> In article <3BC9F0...@yahoo.com>, mrmo...@yahoo.com says...
> >
> >Robert wrote:
> >>
> >> Mike Monett wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> > They
> >> > circulate and come in contact with invading bacteria and viruses and
> >> > disable them.
> >>
> >> Just exactly what is the molecular mechanism by which that occurs?
> >
> >Nobody really knows. However, scientists are aware that few bacteria can
> >survive around silver mines. They were surprised to find a strain of a
> >common soil bacteria living deep in a silver mine.
>
> So what? There are bacteria that line in hot spots on the ocean floor that
> feed on H2S.
The surprise is bacteria normally cannot survive near silver mines.
> Ever notice that the usual reply to a pointed scientific question put to New
> Age nuts, is "Noooobody really knows!". Then they point you to what they
> claim is an authoritative source of information, that has a website address
> that has "herbal" in it.
>
> Bob.
Bob,
I did not give a url. I do not deal in herbal remedies. The thread is
colloidal silver.
Do you take aspirin? Do you know how it works?
Does the lack of knowledge on how aspirin functions in the human body
prevent you from taking it for a headache?
Mike Monett
[...]
> You forgot, John, it doesn't kill "friendly" bacteria. Those are the ones
> with the little "F" stenciled on their cell walls.
>
> Bob.
No, they are the ones in the small intestine. Marking them with a
stenciled "F" would probably kill them, and I do not recommend doing so.
Mike Monett
> In article <3BC8A8...@yahoo.com>, mrmo...@yahoo.com says...
>> Well, I posted the article here because this is where I hang out.
>> I don't post often, but I try to make my posts useful. A few of
>> the regulars know me.
>> The electolysis of silver is electronics in the deepest sense. We
>> are familiar with resistors and transistor, and how they work to
>> ampllify signals.
> There is a rather large difference between "electronics" and
> "electricity". Electolysis has nothing at all to do with
> electronics. Making colloidal silver is more closely related to
> electroplating, than to anything else.
>> But the act of putting a voltage across two silver electrodes in
>> distilled water is something new. There is some chemistry
>> involved, but the end result is silver ions and particles of
>> silver in solution.
>> It kills bacteria and viruses.
> Yes, as do many things. Silver nitrate has been an antibacterial,
> and general sterilizing agent for over a century. Nowadays,
> hostpitals also recognize silver's toxic effects and universally
> discontinued its use since the 1950s.
Silver nitrate is still recommended in areas where Neisseria
gonorrhoeae is common. This is from a 1992 report:
"In 1986 and again in 1988 the American Academy of Pediatrics
supported the recommendations of the US Centers for Disease
Control (CDC), Atlanta, that 1% tetracycline ointment and 0.5%
erythromycin ointment were equally acceptable in preventing
gonococcal ophthalmia neonatorum, although it was felt that silver
nitrate might still be the best agent in areas where the incidence
of penicillinase-producing Neisseria gonorrhoeae (PPNG) was
appreciable [4]."
http://www.cma.ca/cmaj/vol-147/1449e.htm
>> You drink this. You put it on cuts. You apply it to warts.
>> Everywhere the silver meets a bacteria or virus, the outcome is
>> certain. The bacteria or virus dies. You get better.
> You can also read articles published by reliable sources (as
> oppposed to the flakes that often "publish" on the internet), and
> see that a lot of this "colloidal silver" fad is not only hype,
> but can be dangerous as well.
Can you supply any links?
Colloidal silver made it to Quackwatch.
http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/PhonyAds/silverad.html
However, the article discusses argyria caused by silver nitrate, and
fails to differentiate between the high dose used in silver nitrate
products, and the low dose used with colloidal silver.
Silver nitrate solutions are generally in the 1% to 2% range. This
is 10,000 to 20,000 parts-per million.
Colloidal silver is generally in the 1 to 10 parts per million. It
does not remain in the body.
It is estimated that someone would have to drink 800 gallons per day
to reach the level that could cause argyria. I am looking for the
url and will post it later.
>> I know this sounds like hype. I thought so when a good friend
>> convinced me to try. Engineers are trained to be skeptical, and I
>> did it only because there was no apparent effect.
>> When I moved away, I stopped taking it. I never got sick while I
>> was taking it, and I figured I didn't need it.
> You will, if there is sufficient levels of concentration. Silver,
> in any ionic or finely divided form, is well known to be toxic.
Can you supply any urls?
>> But when I got shingles, and the silver killed the virus in one
>> day, I became convinced. It works. The stories you read are true.
> Must have been a serious bout of the disease if you could "cure"
> it in ONE day, by ANY method.
I suppose it was a typical case. It put me to bed for a week. The
significant thing is the blisters disappeared the day after I took
one dose of colloidal silver. I never went through the encrustation
phase shown on my page
http://www.geocities.com/mrmonett/shingles/0shin.htm
None of the shingles sites reported the ability of any drug to have
this effect.
>> It will be an uphill battle, but I hope to persuade some of the
>> regulars here to try it. If you get a cold or the flu, give it a
>> try. It will cost you less than the antibiotics (which cannot
>> work against viruses)
> This is nonsense. You act as if the scientific community has never
> heard of the stuff, and it is some new magical cure. Many sources
> on the web claim it is the cure for everything from hangnails to
> hairballs. The fact is that there is a large amount of documented
> scientific data on this over many, many years. The problem is that
> it is not very positive, and that just doesn't fit well with the
> evangelistic opinions of "born again" promoters of the stuff.
Can you supply any urls?
>> You cannot be hurt by trying it.
> This is absolute bullshit! Yes, if it is diluted enough, you will
> suffer no ill effects. But there is clear evidence of toxic
> effects when concentrations are too high, and/or consumption
> continues for an extended time. Among the most accessible places
> for this info is the internet itself. One interesting point is
> that some organizations have purchased bottles or vials of
> so-called colloidal silver from numerous sources. The main result
> was that most of them were shown to contain essentially negligible
> levels of silver. In short, they were sucker bait! One proof of
> this is the exhorbitant cost of a small vial of the stuff, that
> contains only micrograms of silver; far, FAR less than is in a
> roll of ordinarly film that sells for a couple of dollars. The
> electrolysis process also is dead simple and costs essentially
> nothing, so it is obvious that this is mainly a get rich quick
> scheme.
I do not recommend purchasing commercially-made colloidal silver.
There is little reason to do when it is so simple and inexpensive to
make it yourself. You also have complete control over the process.
>> I would not even mention it if there were any risk.
> And you are the expert in what any risks might be? Would you mind
> letting us know what your actual credentials are in the
> physiochemical field?
The best example is personal experience. I have been taking it for
about three years. I found no side effects, and I am not blue.
However, just as you are, I was very skeptical about colloidal
silver. I followed the postings in Mike Devour's Silver List
http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html
This was formed in April, 1997, and currently contains over 41,000
posts. I was unable to find any indication that colloidal silver is
harmful, except for the possibility of herxheimer as described
below. This can be avoided by starting out with very small doses,
such as 1/2 tsp per day.
I also monitor other silver groups, such as Marvin Robey's site at
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/colloidalsilver
I also monitor general web sites such as Quackwatch, Eureka, and
many others.
I have found no information showing that pure colloidal silver is
harmful.
The only information I have found is that it works.
>> The only problem you might encounter is if it kills a load of
>> bacteria you are carrying, and they release their toxins into
>> your body. This may make you feel sick for a few days.
> You don't understand much about bacterial biological processes, do
> you? So, let's see now. You take a bunch of this stuff, then you
> feel sick. But naturally, this has nothing to do with having just
> ingested silver; a known biological poison. No, no, no! Why it
> REALLY is the result of those nasty bacteria who are supposedly
> "carrying around" a load of toxins (never mind that bacteria don't
> do it this way), then suddenly releasing them. Yeah, right!
I believe I described the process fairly well.
>> I hope it is possible to open a channel to discuss this topic in
>> this newsgroup. Some of the most brilliant engineers and
>> scientists you can find anywhere are here. I would like to find
>> out why this works, and if there is any way to improve the simple
>> methods that have been used to make it.
>> As more bacteria develop immunity to the strongest antibiotics
>> available, colloidal silver may be our only hope. We need to
>> understand it much better than we do now.
> You don't need to "open a channel". Like many people who seem to
> be blind to existing information, you need to open your mind. I
> know a number of people who are fixated with this "cure for
> everything". All of them seem to display the same lack of interest
> in looking at the full range of facts, and seem to take any claim
> of this material's success (no matter how flaky and unreliable the
> source may be) as sufficient "proof" that they no longer need to
> look at both sides.
> Bob.
Your last paragraph is at odds with your stance whenever colloidal
silver is mentioned.
There are some problems with colloidal silver. One is the large
variation in the production of silver particles compared to silver
ions. The ratio is usually between 1% to 25%.
It would be useful to find a method to make this more reproducible.
A second problem is measuring the percentage of silver particles in
colloidal silver. The current methods are extremely expensive and
time-consuming.
It would be useful to find a method of determining the percentage of
silver particles in solution.
A third problem is determining the size of the silver particles. It
would be useful if a simple method could be developed to determine
the size of silver particles in solution.
One of the reasons for posting here is the wide range of expertise
of people who use this newsgroup.
It might be possible that someone already knows some of the answers
and is willing to share the information.
James Beck
two bits worth.
Colloidal Silver is not toxic. By the FDAs own admission the only side
effect from massive doses are a condition that causes blue-grey skin.
All other "Silver" toxicity studies were done on salts of silver and yes
they can be toxic.
Colloidal silver IS effective. It has been used successfully for many
years by pork ranchers to dramatically reduce the amount of antibiotics
used on the live stock. The silver is put directly into the water
supply.
It is so safe and effective that several bandage manufacturers now offer
colloidal silver impregnated bandages.
There are now silver lined air ducts that are free from the mold and
bacteria that infest zinc lined sheet metal ducts.
The way silver works is also well documented.....look it up.
Colloidal silver has been clinically shown to kill over 700 different
types of bacteria, fungi, and viruses. I have never seen any proof that
it can somehow tell the difference between "good" and "bad" bacteria, as
far as I know it kills 'em all.
The reason it is so hard to find good information on colloidal silver is
that it has become a bit of a New Age fad and, even though it is good
stuff, there is a lot of bad writing and hype out there.
It is really easy to start screaming snake oil, and I/we all know it is
not a cure all, colloidal silver can be a valuable addition to a home
pharmacy.
Robert
John Woodgate wrote:
>
> I read in sci.electronics.design that Robert <nos...@earthlink.net>
> wrote (in <3BC9B8D0...@earthlink.net>) about 'LONG Re: Shingles
> and Colloidal Silver', on Sun, 14 Oct 2001:
> >
> >
> >Mike Monett wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> They
> >> circulate and come in contact with invading bacteria and viruses and
> >> disable them.
> >
> > Just exactly what is the molecular mechanism by which that occurs?
> >
> >>
> >> The silver particles are distributed by the bloodstream and kill the
> >> bacteria and viruses they come in contact with, and ...
> >
> >Just exactly what is the molecular mechanism by which that occurs?
>
> Unfortunately, an explanation is all too easy. Among the myriad proteins
> on the surface of each organism, there are bound to be some that will
> form toxic and/or dysfunctional metalloproteins with the silver.
>
> Proving it is another matter, but it shouldn't be all that difficult in
> vitro. No-one seems to have done that, though, which has to be
> suggestive.
Okay- this will work for the bacteria that are awash with the silver as
in the intestine, but it is far more likely that it will also take out
the macrophagous lymphocytes circulating in the blood stream and
lymphatic ducts which aggressively seek out any non-self material. Also,
the virus is far too specific about its cellular chemistry affinities to
believe anything about the efficacy of the silver. If you consider this
so-called testimony about the cures, it is more than apparent that the
description is of suppression of immune response that is causing
redness, swelling, heat, pain , etc.. So it is more likely that the
silver has temporarily weakened the immune system, by killing large
numbers of lymphocytes, and not really doing much with the pathogen. I
don't think these people realize that any type of infection is with you
for the rest of your life. Be it a virus or bacteria, the treatment, if
successful, will suppress the pathogen population to a small enough
level so that the immune system can keep it under hopefully innocuous
equilibrium control- but it never goes away. So if this person has a
problem with recurring herpes zoster outbreaks, then he is just crudely
treating the symptoms and not producing a real cure. And who knows about
the danger of serious liver and kidney damage. This argyria[?} turning
blue, sounds like a localized epidermal cyanosis to me, is not a good
sign that the so-called treatment is wise.
> >
> >>
> >> There are some parts of the body that do not have much blood circulation,
> >> such as the eyes. I have successfully stopped an eye infection with a few
> >> drops of colloidal silver applied to my eye. I repeated the application
> >> after a few hours. At the end of the third application, the infection was
> >> gone.
> >
> >Hmmm...do you think it will cure anthrax?
>
> It may kill anthrax, if it kills any bacteria.
Sure- a topical bactericide is tame.
Mike Monett
> Okay- this will work for the bacteria that are awash with the silver as
> in the intestine, but it is far more likely that it will also take out
[...]
Dear Robert,
While everyone respects your obvious intellectual superiority and
razor-sharp grasp of the facts, I'm afraid I find myself in
disagreement with some of the details of your explanation.
The silver cannot kill the M-lymphocytes.
They are the ones with the little 'M' stenciled on their cell walls.
Colloidal silver is only effective against bacteria, which have a
'B' stenciled on their sides.
Actually, what really happens is the M-lymphocytes reach out and
grab a piece of silver. They use it to beat the bacteria over the
head, just like cavemen did in the old days.
And there's this King of the M-lymphocytes. He has a pretty
daughter.
At the end of the day, everyone sits around the campfire feasting.
The King counts the victories, and gives his daughter to the
M-lymphocyte who has killed the most bacteria.
Then they ride off, and everyone lives happily ever after.
This is the truth. Just ask Bob Wilson :)
peter crowcroft
wrote:
>
> Two types of silver are produced during electrolysis. Silver ions,
> and silver particles.
>
It is interesting how people promoting pseudo-science try to 'win' by
repetition. They wear down the 'scientists' who quit in disgust so the
pro-pseudoscience people are left as the 'victors'.
Colloidal silver is NOT produced in simple cells with 9V batteries or
110VAC. It is that simple. Hydrogen gas is formed at the cathode.
Silver hydroxide is formed at the anode which is unstable and converts
to silver oxide which has a very low solubility product so it forms a
solid and settles to the bottom of the container or goes colloidal.
In the AC cell feathers of silver metal may electroplate both
electrodes.
It is 'nice' for uneducated people to think that the silver metal pops
off the silver electrode and goes into solution but it aint so.
The lack of understanding of colloidal vs. ionic silver is an
indication of their lack of basic chemisty education.
2. There are NO OTC froducts approved by the USFDA. See Clinical
Toxicology, 34(1), 119-126, (1996). Anyone seriously interested in CS
should read the several pages of history given. If you cannot get a
copy then ask me and I will send one to you for free.
3. Ionic silver has been suggested as a preserving agent (cosmetics)
by the work published in J Pharm Pharmacol, 48 (1), 60-63, 1996. The
chemistry of the cells using silver electrodes is discussed. This
paper says NOTHING about medical uses.
4. For a discussion of silver ions and skin tissue see Clinical
Chemistry, 43 (2), 290-301, 1997. (Discusses the mechanism of silver
sulfadiazine cream.)
5. Quite simply colloidal silver and the machines which are supposed
to produce it are quack confidence tricks to separate people from
their money. There is no evidence that metallic silver in any form has
any medical effect. It is below hydrogen on the electrochemical table.
It does not react with water or oxygen. This is why hydrogen gas is
produced: hydrogen is reduced to hydrogen gas, not ionic silver
reduced to silver metal. Ag2O will be produced in a range of sizes.
Some will precipitate out, some will stay in solution.
peter crowcroft
wrote:
>Bob Wilson wrote:
The FDA has studied CS and their results are to be found in
Clinical Toxicology, 34(1), 119-126, 1996.
They conclude that 'silver has no known physiologic function and
should not be promoted as an essential mineral supplement. Recent
promotional assertions made about the effectiveness of these products
in numerous diseases remain unsubstantiated.'
If anyone wants a copy of this report I will send it to you for free
airmail. Just email me at
Bob Wilson
>
>I did not give a url. I do not deal in herbal remedies. The thread is
>colloidal silver.
In fact, the website address you gave as a supposedly authoritative source
for FDA info on "colloidal" silver had the word "herbal" in it, exactly as I
stated. Several others in this newsgroup pointed this out as well.
>Do you take aspirin? Do you know how it works?
>
>Does the lack of knowledge on how aspirin functions in the human body
>prevent you from taking it for a headache?
Hate to tell you, but aspirin's mechanicanism in the human body is now
quite well understood, scientifically. Certainly it wasn't when it was
developed, but then in those days there were all sorts of snake oil remedies
that were sold, many of which turned out to be pretty dangerous. Things are
different now.
Bob.
Bob Wilson
says...
Now there you go, confusing the issue with the facts.
It is interesting for me that the 3 guys in my last place of employment that
were as evangelistic about "colloidal" silver as the OP, also did the
following:
1. They insisted that the stuff was the cure for damn nearly everthing
known to man (including, Aids, of course).
2. They all vehemently believed in this "chem trail" nonsense, where every
aircraft that flew by, that had an ordinary contrail, was "in reality"
laying down a chemical fog. This was part of a government plot, you
understand, that was intended to make older people sick (so they didn't
burdon the health system), or was part of some military program to
experiment on the general population. It seemed that every ordinary cirrus
cloud formation was "proof" of yet another "chem trail" that had spread ofer
the sky.
3. Two of the 3 endlessly wore some kind of battery powered circuitry that
had wires and electrodes taped to their wrists. This apparently was supposed
to stimulate their immune system or something.
4. They insisted that flu shots were highly dangerous and loaded with
mercury. They claimed proof that the average person would suffer serious
harm after 8 to 10 years of receiving a flu shot each year (cummulative
effect of all that mercury).
5. In general, they seemed to believe in every conspiracy-theory-
of-the-month. Every few weeks there was another one that required our full
attention.
Now, once again why is it that I have a hard time believing these
unscientific claims about "colloidal" silver, and all the magic effects it
is supposed to have?
Bob.
Mike Monett
>
> In article <3BCAA3...@yahoo.com>, mrmo...@yahoo.com says...
> >
>
> >I did not give a url. I do not deal in herbal remedies. The thread is
> >colloidal silver.
>
> In fact, the website address you gave as a supposedly authoritative source
> for FDA info on "colloidal" silver had the word "herbal" in it, exactly as I
> stated. Several others in this newsgroup pointed this out as well.
Hi Bob,
That document is now referenced many places on the web.
The original site is Brent Finnigan at
http://colloidalsilvergens.com/colloidal_silver_safety_information.htm
However, he uses rather strong language about the FDA that I felt might
upset people. This reduces the credibility of the information.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
On August 17th, 1999 the FDA ruled colloidal silver as not safe.
I was very interested in the research data they used to make that
determination. If you
read both the letter I sent and their reply you will be shocked at their
hypocrisy.
This is YOUR government and YOUR tax dollars at work to blatantly lie and
mislead you.
Brent Finnigan LMP
Tacoma, WA 98408
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another site that references the report is
http://www.naturesalternatives.com/silver/fda.html
However, they do not credit the source of the information.
------------------------------------------------------------------------Letter to the FDA
Is Colloidal Silver Safe?
The following is a letter that was sent to the FDA on 10-14-1999 and
their response.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The site I listed told where the letter came from, and did not use strong
language or other offensive wording. I felt it would be the safest site
to use.
Unfortunately, it had the word "herbal" in it.
This has nothing to do with the accuracy of the report.
Mike Monett
Yes, Peter, I would like a copy. If you can, please send it to
Mike Monett
1440 Heatherington
Unit H
Ottawa
Canada
K1V-6S1
I will be moving (again) at the end of the month. Packages can take a
while to clear customs, especially with the terrorist actions.
I will notify the post office I am expecting a parcel and give them your
name and address. Hopefully that will reduce their anxiety a bit.
I had always thought the FDA must have done studies on colloidal silver.
It will be interesting to see how the tests were performed.
Mike Monett
>
> On Mon, 15 Oct 2001 04:46:34 -0400, Mike Monett <mrmo...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > Two types of silver are produced during electrolysis. Silver ions,
> > and silver particles.
> >
>
> It is interesting how people promoting pseudo-science try to 'win' by
> repetition. They wear down the 'scientists' who quit in disgust so the
> pro-pseudoscience people are left as the 'victors'.
Valid points are raised in the discussions. I provide references that are
not linked with commercial producers of colloidal silver. This may lead
to other valid points. I try to answer them with other references not
linked to commercial producers.
If someone can provide valid links that help in the understanding of the
subject, I study them. Perhaps this raises questions in my mind. I
present them to the group.
This is a valid means of uncovering information.
> Colloidal silver is NOT produced in simple cells with 9V batteries or
> 110VAC. It is that simple. Hydrogen gas is formed at the cathode.
> Silver hydroxide is formed at the anode which is unstable and converts
> to silver oxide which has a very low solubility product so it forms a
> solid and settles to the bottom of the container or goes colloidal.
>
> In the AC cell feathers of silver metal may electroplate both
> electrodes.
>
> It is 'nice' for uneducated people to think that the silver metal pops
> off the silver electrode and goes into solution but it aint so.
>
> The lack of understanding of colloidal vs. ionic silver is an
> indication of their lack of basic chemisty education.
[...]
> peter crowcroft
> http://kitsrus.com
> PO Box 88458, Sham Shui Po
> Hong Kong
Peter,
How do you explain the fact that conductivity increases with time as
shown by the curves on my web page at
http://www.geocities.com/mrmonett/shingles/0shin.htm
The curve is very close to an exponential, i.e. F(t) = t^2
The blue curve in the graph for the 18 volt constant-voltage generator
shows the exponential curve fit. The red diamonds are the original data
points.
I provide a simple test to show the presence of silver ions in solution
by adding a few salt crystals. This produces silver chloride and turns
the solution a beautiful pale blue/gray.
Silver chloride is sensitive to light. When you put the glass containing
it in strong sunlight, it turns darker.
You can easily perform these tests yourself.
What causes these reactions?
Mike Monett
>
> In article <tc9nstgm36om5m1rg...@4ax.com>, pe...@kitsrus.com
> says...
> >
> >On Mon, 15 Oct 2001 04:46:34 -0400, Mike Monett <mrmo...@yahoo.com>
> >wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Two types of silver are produced during electrolysis. Silver ions,
> >> and silver particles.
> >>
> >
> >It is interesting how people promoting pseudo-science try to 'win' by
> >repetition. They wear down the 'scientists' who quit in disgust so the
> >pro-pseudoscience people are left as the 'victors'.
[...]
> >5. Quite simply colloidal silver and the machines which are supposed
> >to produce it are quack confidence tricks to separate people from
> >their money. There is no evidence that metallic silver in any form has
> >any medical effect. It is below hydrogen on the electrochemical table.
> >It does not react with water or oxygen. This is why hydrogen gas is
> >produced: hydrogen is reduced to hydrogen gas, not ionic silver
> >reduced to silver metal. Ag2O will be produced in a range of sizes.
> >Some will precipitate out, some will stay in solution.
>
> Now there you go, confusing the issue with the facts.
[...]
> Now, once again why is it that I have a hard time believing these
> unscientific claims about "colloidal" silver, and all the magic effects it
> is supposed to have?
>
> Bob.
Hi Bob,
It's hard to tell where to snip to avoid offending anyone.
Are you replying to my post or to Peter's reply?
Peter is apparently complaining about the process of making colloidal
silver. I responded to him in another post.
Yes, it is hard to avoid the looneys. There are so many of them.
I am sorry you seem to be afflicted with more than your fair share. They
annoy you and make it hard to focus.
I will try to take this into account in wording my replies.
Please let me know the source of confusion in your post and I will
attempt to answer your question.
Mike Monett
Hi Bob,
Nice post. Thanks for the new information on cs. I like your comment
about adding cs to a home pharmacy.
You are right about the hype and new age fad associated with cs. This
really turns off people and makes it easy to dismiss as a hoax. Some of
the stuff written on the topic is hopelessly exaggerated and clearly
false.
That is why I avoid referencing any commercial sites in my links. I think
the best source is http://www.silver-colloids.com/
They also complain about the hype, and try to take a more balanced view
of the topic. There is a lot of information at that site on how to
measure the properties of colloidal silver.
The most difficult part of cs is how to explain the production of silver
particles, and to devise a simple test to show the presence of particles
in solution. That is why I did not go into the subject on my web page at
http://www.geocities.com/mrmonett/shingles/0shin.htm
However, it is simple to show the presence of silver ions, and I do show
how to test for them by adding a few crystals of salt.
The paper at
http://www.silver-colloids.com/Papers/CSProperties.PDF
shows the current methods to test for silver particles. Do you know of a
simpler method that can be used by anyone with materials commonly found
at home?
Martin Brown
Mike Monett wrote:
> Bob Wilson wrote:
> >
> > In article <3BCAA3...@yahoo.com>, mrmo...@yahoo.com says...
> > >
> >
> > >I did not give a url. I do not deal in herbal remedies. The thread is
> > >colloidal silver.
> >
> > In fact, the website address you gave as a supposedly authoritative source
> > for FDA info on "colloidal" silver had the word "herbal" in it, exactly as I
> > stated. Several others in this newsgroup pointed this out as well.
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> That document is now referenced many places on the web.
>
> The original site is Brent Finnigan at
>
> http://colloidalsilvergens.com/colloidal_silver_safety_information.htm
>
> However, he uses rather strong language about the FDA that I felt might
> upset people. This reduces the credibility of the information.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> On August 17th, 1999 the FDA ruled colloidal silver as not safe.
It probably isn't completely safe. Nothing is. Hopefully colloidal silver will not prove to
be as disastrous and deadly as the massively hyped radium water cures of the 1920's.
http://www.mtn.org/quack/devices/radium.htm
The US seems particularly prone to magic lotion and potion health cure fads.
There is even an online museum dedicated to them and related quackery.
http://www.mtn.org/quack/welcome.htm
Colloidal silver hasn't made it into their hall of fame yet. Given time it probably will.
The main thing that colloidal silver demonstrates is the power of the placebo effect.
Most chemists believe it is a clever scheme to lighten the wallets of the worried well.
Try posting to sci.chem if you want to find out first hand.
Regards,
Martin Brown
Mike Monett
[...]
> The main thing that colloidal silver demonstrates is the power of the placebo effect.
> Most chemists believe it is a clever scheme to lighten the wallets of the worried well.
>
> Try posting to sci.chem if you want to find out first hand.
>
> Regards,
> Martin Brown
Hi Martin,
How do you explain the rapid disappearance of the blisters after taking
colloidal silver that I describe on my web site at
http://www.geocities.com/mrmonett/shingles/0shin.htm
I never went through the encrustation phase shown in the photographs.
None of the shingles sites show this effect with any of the drugs
recommended for Zoster.
It is difficult to believe the placebo effect can influence such a
dangerous virus. Something had to kill it. My normal immune system was
unable to do so. The symptoms kept on getting worse until I took
colloidal silver.
There is no placebo effect in the lab reports listed at the bottom of my
article. These are from institutions that do not have any commercial
interest in selling colloidal silver.
There is no placebo effect in the report on the Colloidal Solutions site
http://www.silver-colloids.com/Book/SilverColloids.pdf
They have no commercial interest in selling colloidal silver products.
How do you explain these effects?
John Devereux
<mrmo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>How do you explain these effects?
People get better.
-- John Devereux
peter crowcroft
<jo...@devereux.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On Tue, 16 Oct 2001 06:35:10 -0400, Mike Monett
><mrmo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>How do you explain these effects?
>
>People get better.
>
>-- John Devereux
>
there is nothing to explain. They stay sick; they do not get better.
Mike Monett
I got better. According to the information on the shingles sites,
the encrustations should be healing by now, and the pain should
start to diminish after the encrustations are healed.
But I never got the encrustations. The blisters vanished the day
after I took the silver. The pain departed long ago.
Perhaps a little background may help. I started having wierd
symptoms when I moved to my sister's house several years ago.
An old friend who works in health science suspected something was
wrong, and sent me a little kit to start making colloidal silver.
She checked to see if I was taking it. The conversation went
something like this:
Hallie: Have you started taking the silver yet?
Me: Well, I'm not sure I'm doing it right. It keeps on turning
black, and it is a real pain in the neck to make.
Hallie: That doesn't matter. DRINK IT!
And she made it very clear that if I did not start taking it, she
would fly to Toronto and shove it down my throat. I know her. She is
perfectly capable of doing that.
Several weeks after I started, I began expelling the most awful,
vile, black substance I had ever seen.
I already knew the walls were covered with Stachy. I had removed
some sections and it was everywhere.
Apparently, the colloidal silver killed the Stachy that was growing
in my lungs. Since I had to stay at my sister's house, I kept on
taking the silver. I was very skeptical of all the claims made about
killing bacteria, but I never got sick, and it seemed to keep the
Stachy at bay, so I kept on taking it.
Unfortunately, as Win pointed out, there is no real solution for
someone affected by Stachy except to move away.
After I moved to Ottawa, I could not find the distilled water that I
used to make cs. The only dw I could find was stuff I had already
tested and found unsuitable.
Eventually, I found the good stuff at Loblaws. I bought some just to
be on the safe side.
But making cs was still a pain in the neck. I never unpacked my
generator.
When I got shingles, and the doctor bungled the diagnosis, I figured
I would educate myself on shingles before going to see another
doctor.
Meanwhile, I unpacked the generator and took some silver. I had no
expectation that it would work on a virus. I was even skeptical that
it did anything for bacteria.
But I figured it could not hurt.
It took longer than expected to collect information on shingles. I
was starting to get very worried, and planned to see a doctor first
thing in the morning.
When I got up, the blisters were gone. Disappeared. They had
vanished. None of the shingles sites reported this reaction using
the standard drugs.
I said to myself, "Holy Cow. This stuff really works! I need to find
out more about it."
The first step was to document the infection, which I did and posted
to my web site.
The next step is to try to find a better way of detecting silver
particles in solution. This seems to be the major factor in the
ability of cs to kill bacteria and virus.
The most likely place to look is where the experts hang out, such as
this newgroup. Since we speak the common language of electronics, I
figured somebody might do a simple experiment to see if the
explanation of the electrolysis was correct.
If they could get the same result, I was hoping that someone might
be interested in the next step, which is to find a way to detect the
presence of silver particles. This would be a major breakthrough.
Which is why I posted here.
James Beck
<SNIP>
> hey also complain about the hype, and try to take a more balanced view
> of the topic. There is a lot of information at that site on how to
> measure the properties of colloidal silver.
>
> The most difficult part of cs is how to explain the production of silver
> particles, and to devise a simple test to show the presence of particles
> in solution. That is why I did not go into the subject on my web page at
>
> http://www.geocities.com/mrmonett/shingles/0shin.htm
>
> However, it is simple to show the presence of silver ions, and I do show
> how to test for them by adding a few crystals of salt.
>
> The paper at
>
> http://www.silver-colloids.com/Papers/CSProperties.PDF
>
> shows the current methods to test for silver particles. Do you know of a
> simpler method that can be used by anyone with materials commonly found
> at home?
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Michael R. Monett
>
>
thought about it either. The water treatment system I saw was for
literally hundreds of gallons of water per hour and used a series of
silver rods and TDS (total dissolved solids) sensors to monitor the water
before and after the silver rods. The system was powered by some
transformer isolated high frequency pulse generators. That's about all I
can remember, it has been about 10 years since I looked at the system. A
similar system is used on some of the produce sprayers in supermarkets.
Jim
Robert
It was June of this year that the US FTC ( Federal Trade Commission )
fined several of the "Alternative Medicine" internet health sites for
making unsubstantiated claims about colloidal silver, as well as shark
cartilage and other off the wall stuff. The fines went into the $100K's,
and were settlements to avoid an expensive court battle. This puts it in
the quack medicine category- it is worthless. Anyone who makes any claim
that can be reasonably construed to mean colloidal silver will improve
the outcome of illness for the purpose of making a sale, is liable for
civil and criminal penalties.
peter crowcroft
wrote:
>
>The most difficult part of cs is how to explain the production of silver
>particles,
Very difficult indeed since it does not happen.
> and to devise a simple test to show the presence of particles
>in solution.
The only way to prove what is in the water is to evaporate the water
and put the residue into a scanning electron microscope (or any other
instrument - I'm 20 years out-of-date here - equiped for microprobe
spectroscopy) and do a microprobe.
The trace will show you whether the residue is metallic silver or a
silver salt or a combination of both. This analysis technique has been
available since I was an undergraduate in the early 1970's. One has to
ask why the CS promoters have not done this simple analysis and
published it.
peter crowcroft
http://homepages.together.net/~rjstan/
John Devereux
<mrmo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>John Devereux wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 16 Oct 2001 06:35:10 -0400, Mike Monett
>> <mrmo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> >How do you explain these effects?
>>
>> People get better.
>>
>> -- John Devereux
>>
>> jo...@devereux.demon.co.uk
>
> I got better. According to the information on the shingles sites,
> the encrustations should be healing by now, and the pain should
> start to diminish after the encrustations are healed.
<BIG SNIP>
Mike, I am pleased you are better, and wish you well.
Since you took to trouble to write such a lengthy reply to
my one-liner, perhaps I should expand on it a little
(apologies to the group for being OT).
I meant that people do, often, "get better", regardless of
any treatment. If this coincides with some action, it is
easy to associate the action with the event. Sometimes the
two may be linked, sometimes not.
I don't think it is possible for an individual to tell the
difference "from the inside", surely the only way is proper
double-blind clinical trials.
Most people have ailments from time to time, and usually
"get better" after a few days. Even relatively long term
illnesses can get better for no externally obvious reason.
If you keep taking cs for every ailment that comes along,
and you get better, that does not show that the cs did
anything.
If your personal "rate of illnesses" is reduced, or if on
average you now spend less time ill when on cs than before,
that does not show a correlation. Peoples "healthiness"
fluctuates. If you take a few thousand people, and watch
them for a year, some will have health better than their
previous average, some worse. If you give all of them cs
during this period (and they know this) the healthy ones may
well ascribe their healthiness to the cs. The few at the
extreme of the curve may be perfectly healthy the entire
time, and may be strongly convinced of a new wonder drug. It
is only from the outside of the "experiment" that the
fallacy can be seen.
The above is true, even without addressing two other
possible effects:
1) People may "feel" better, even when they are not, if they
are convinced they are taking a wonder drug.
2) People can genuinely get better because of taking the
drug, just through having a more positive outlook, less
stress etc.
Those unlucky enough not to have been helped by conventional
treatments may well try alternatives, moving from one
alternative technique to another. There must be millions of
people who are in this position, it does not surprise me
that it turns out a few thousand happen to "get better"
while trying cs, or that a few hundred of these become
evangelistic. (The majority who see no effect will just move
on to the next "cure". They will not start Usenet threads /
create web sites saying "after years of conventional
treatment, I tried CS but unfortunately that didn't work
either....).
> But I never got the encrustations. The blisters vanished the day
> after I took the silver. The pain departed long ago.
I don't know much about shingles, but are you sure this
never happens? Are you sure it was in fact shingles? Does
everyone get "encrustations"?
> Several weeks after I started, I began expelling the most awful,
> vile, black substance I had ever seen.
>
> I already knew the walls were covered with Stachy. I had removed
> some sections and it was everywhere.
>
> Apparently, the colloidal silver killed the Stachy that was growing
> in my lungs. Since I had to stay at my sister's house, I kept on
> taking the silver. I was very skeptical of all the claims made about
> killing bacteria, but I never got sick, and it seemed to keep the
> Stachy at bay, so I kept on taking it.
There seems room for other explanations for this than the
silver, especially in a "several-week" time frame.
<SNIP>
> Meanwhile, I unpacked the generator and took some silver. I had no
> expectation that it would work on a virus. I was even skeptical that
> it did anything for bacteria.
>
> When I got up, the blisters were gone. Disappeared. They had
> vanished. None of the shingles sites reported this reaction using
> the standard drugs.
Did they report that this never happens, that the blisters
always take longer than this to go away?
Disclaimer: I am not a medical expert, these are just my
thoughts.
-- John Devereux
Bob Wilson
> Your extreme position is not allowing you to make an objective
> review of the information on colloidal silver, and you are making
> mistakes in your interpretation of my posts.
My extreme position is based on common sense, a very good undertanding of
scientific pronciples, and a distrust of nonscientific people who make fools
of themselves attempting to talk in "scientific" terms about which they
understand little.
If your posts were based on hard scientific principle, instead of fuzzy
logic, and vague statements like "no one is really sure how...", and
"[unnamed and unknown] scientests believe...", then you might have more
people in this engineering newsgroup (people who have an understanding of
science and an aversion to charletan doubletalk) believing you.
Bob.
Bob Wilson
>Please let me know the source of confusion in your post and I will
>attempt to answer your question.
I guess you must have me confused with someone who cares about hearing your
"answers".
Bob.
Bob Wilson
>It was June of this year that the US FTC ( Federal Trade Commission )
>fined several of the "Alternative Medicine" internet health sites for
>making unsubstantiated claims about colloidal silver, as well as shark
>cartilage and other off the wall stuff. The fines went into the $100K's,
>and were settlements to avoid an expensive court battle. This puts it in
>the quack medicine category- it is worthless. Anyone who makes any claim
>that can be reasonably construed to mean colloidal silver will improve
>the outcome of illness for the purpose of making a sale, is liable for
>civil and criminal penalties.
So much for the "FDA report" that was supposed to show the effectiveness of
this snake oil. Isn't it amazing what you can find when you look to the
source of the information, instead of places like
alt.new-age-flakes.herbal.snake-oil.com.
Bob.
Mike Monett
Many cs promoters publish electron microscope photos of their
products showing the size distribution of the silver particles in
their product.
However, I try to avoid using commercial sites as a reference for
obvious reasons.
Silver Colloids Inc. has a paper on the subject at
http://www.silver-colloids.com/Book/SilverColloids.pdf
The section named "Transmission electron microscope" refers to the
photos in Fig. 4 of the paper. This shows results from various
vendors.
Another test is the Tyndall effect. I quote from the same paper:
"An optical test often referred to in the literature as the
Tyndall effect occurs when a strong beam of light is passed
through a silver colloidal suspension. The beam illuminates the
silver suspension indicating that colloidal particles are present,
but tells us only that the particles are present and nothing of
the concentration or size distribution of the particles."
I have used the Tyndall effect. It works, but only as a
semi-qualitative tool. It really doesn't tell much about the
particles, as the above quote confirms.
So I guess my next project is to make a home-built scanning tunnel
microscope. That should be interesting!
Mike Monett
Thank you for replying to my longish message. To save time, I will snip a
lot.
[...]
> > But I never got the encrustations. The blisters vanished the day
> > after I took the silver. The pain departed long ago.
>
> I don't know much about shingles, but are you sure this
> never happens? Are you sure it was in fact shingles? Does
> everyone get "encrustations"?
I went though a lot of sites, many more than the 20 or so referenced on
my web page. None of the sites indicated it was possible for the blisters
to simply vanish. The description for the medications referred to
different stages of the encrustation. Some medicines cannot be taken
until after they start to heal.
Yes, I am certain it was shingles. It followed all the classical
symptoms. A tingling sensation when the virus starts to reach the skin.
Incredible shooting pain as it damaged the nerves. The clincher was the
reaction of the triage nurse the instant she saw the rash and blisters.
She said, "You've got shingles".
[...]
> > Apparently, the colloidal silver killed the Stachy that was growing
> > in my lungs. Since I had to stay at my sister's house, I kept on
> > taking the silver. I was very skeptical of all the claims made about
> > killing bacteria, but I never got sick, and it seemed to keep the
> > Stachy at bay, so I kept on taking it.
>
> There seems room for other explanations for this than the
> silver, especially in a "several-week" time frame.
I'm quite willing to accept there may be other explanations. Stachy is a
very tough mold. It takes 15 minutes to 1/2 hour for ordinary bleach to
start to have any effect. It begins to turn from black to clear. It may
take several hours or overnight to become transparent.
Really nasty stuff. There is nothing good about it at all.
> <SNIP>
>
> > Meanwhile, I unpacked the generator and took some silver. I had no
> > expectation that it would work on a virus. I was even skeptical that
> > it did anything for bacteria.
> >
> > When I got up, the blisters were gone. Disappeared. They had
> > vanished. None of the shingles sites reported this reaction using
> > the standard drugs.
>
> Did they report that this never happens, that the blisters
> always take longer than this to go away?
Yes. They burst. The skin is damaged by the virus. It takes a long time
to heal.
Mine just simply vanished. There was no break in the skin. The rashes
shrank very rapidly. It was nothing like the reaction described on the
shingles sites.
> Disclaimer: I am not a medical expert, these are just my
> thoughts.
>
> -- John Devereux
>
> jo...@devereux.demon.co.uk
Thanks John.
Mike Monett
Yes. Pretty, isn't she.
This is a well-known site to anyone who takes colloidal silver.
She did not take colloidal silver. It was some kind of silver protein or
silver nitrate substance.
What is very odd is that obviously many other people took the same
product. It was apparently a commercial product and readily available.
She is the only reported incident.
Anyway, it has nothing to do with colloidal silver.
The quantity of silver in a 1 to 10 ppm solution is too low to have any
effect.
Mike Monett
Bob,
I try to provide non-commercial references to any point that someone
raises.
I don't think I have ever used the phrase "[unnamed and unknown]
scientests believe..."
When I say I do not know how colloidal silver works, it is the truth.
I am not trying to sell a product. I have no commercial interest in
colloidal silver.
I am trying to learn more about it, especially how to determine
quantitatively the level of silver particles in solution.
This could be presented as a simple engineering challenge, if that would
be more palatable to you.
Do you have any means of determining the level of small silver particles
in a solution of distilled water containing 75% to 99% silver ions?
The expected level of silver particles is about 1 ppm.
Mike Monett
The FDA report showed the FDA has no record of anyone being harmed by
collidal silver.
I posted the information and the url on FDA actions against commercial
producers previously.
The FDA ruling is worded against silver nitrte and silver protein
compounds. They do not distinguish between these known-toxic compounds
and colloidal silver. They want anything to do with colloidal sivler off
the market.
Some might observe that the success of colloidal silver in reducing
doctor visits might have a negative effect on the profits of drug
companies.
Other might observe that FDA rulings have not always been in the best
interest of the public, but instead promote dangerous dugs that are later
taken off the market when enough people experience severe side effects.
Other might observe that some products remain sanctioned by the FDA
ragardless of severe side effects widely reported in the press.
I don't think anyone can put the FDA on a pedastal and claim they are
perfect.
Their own evidence obtained through a freedom of information act shows no
one has ever been harmed by taking colloidal silver.
Winfield Hill
>
> I am trying to learn more about it, especially how to determine
> quantitatively the level of silver particles in solution.
>
> This could be presented as a simple engineering challenge, if that
> would be more palatable to you.
>
> Do you have any means of determining the level of small silver particles
> in a solution of distilled water containing 75% to 99% silver ions?
>
> The expected level of silver particles is about 1 ppm.
The answer may be photon-correlation of forward-scattered light,
such as with the Malvern Instruments machine the Colloidal Science
Laborator owns. http://www.malvern.co.uk/Laboratory/dts.htm
I don't think you can use an STM technique because the silver isn't
fixed in position on a substrate.
Thanks,
- Win
Winfield Hill
Rowland Institute for Science
100 Edwin Land Blvd
Cambridge, MA 02142
Mike Monett
[...]
> > The expected level of silver particles is about 1 ppm.
>
> The answer may be photon-correlation of forward-scattered light,
> such as with the Malvern Instruments machine the Colloidal Science
> Laborator owns. http://www.malvern.co.uk/Laboratory/dts.htm
>
> I don't think you can use an STM technique because the silver isn't
> fixed in position on a substrate.
>
> Thanks,
> - Win
>
> Winfield Hill
> Rowland Institute for Science
> 100 Edwin Land Blvd
> Cambridge, MA 02142
Looks very interesting. Thanks, Win.
Also thanks for the comment on using a STM. Why does the silver have to
be fixed in place? I thought the probe never actually touched it, just
came very close.
peter crowcroft
wrote:
> However, I try to avoid using commercial sites as a reference for
> obvious reasons.
>
> Silver Colloids Inc. has a paper on the subject at
>
> http://www.silver-colloids.com/Book/SilverColloids.pdf
>
> The section named "Transmission electron microscope" refers to the
> photos in Fig. 4 of the paper. This shows results from various
> vendors.
>
Inconclusive in the extreme. There is no microprobe analysis of the
clumps. He has no idea what he is looking at. I suggest he is looking
at silver salts - Ag2O. The clump does not have to crystaline to be a
salt. In fact the photos do not look like EM photos to me. The
resolution is very low. And in any case why use a transmission EM? A
scanning EM would be the tool of choice since you are not trying to
look inside the structures, only the outside of the clumps.
>
> I have used the Tyndall effect. It works, but only as a
> semi-qualitative tool. It really doesn't tell much about the
> particles, as the above quote confirms.
>
Ag2O in solution colloidally can have the same effect. Only by
microprobe scan can you tell the clumps you are seeing is elemental
silver. This is rock-bottom, basic chemistry.
> So I guess my next project is to make a home-built scanning tunnel
> microscope. That should be interesting!
There are thousands of scanning electron microscopes around. I was
using them in the 1970 to look at neurones and diamond particles held
in copper plate for gemstone polishing. Ring your local university,
Eye & Ear Hospital and get chatting with a technician. Ask the cost of
doing a scan and analysis. In fact I might do it myself when I am next
in Australia.
The fact that bacteria are killed in a petri dish by the silver oxide
solution has no relation to what happens in the human stomach when the
solution is drunk.
Win Hill
>
> Also thanks for the comment on using a STM. Why does the silver have to
> be fixed in place? I thought the probe never actually touched it, just
> came very close.
Right, but the probe is fixed and can only measure against some other
fixed object. Another point, with an incredibly high resolution, it's
very time consuming to get many measurements.
___
Thanks, /.-.\
(( * ))
- Win \\ //
\\\
Winfield Hill //\\\
Rowland Institute for Science /// \\\
Cambridge, MA \/ \/
Mike Monett
>
> On Tue, 16 Oct 2001 13:34:19 -0400, Mike Monett <mrmo...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> > However, I try to avoid using commercial sites as a reference for
> > obvious reasons.
> >
> > Silver Colloids Inc. has a paper on the subject at
> >
> > http://www.silver-colloids.com/Book/SilverColloids.pdf
> >
> > The section named "Transmission electron microscope" refers to the
> > photos in Fig. 4 of the paper. This shows results from various
> > vendors.
> >
>
> Inconclusive in the extreme. There is no microprobe analysis of the
> clumps. He has no idea what he is looking at. I suggest he is looking
> at silver salts - Ag2O. The clump does not have to crystaline to be a
> salt. In fact the photos do not look like EM photos to me. The
> resolution is very low. And in any case why use a transmission EM? A
> scanning EM would be the tool of choice since you are not trying to
> look inside the structures, only the outside of the clumps.
Is Ag2O a salt?
Yes, you are correct. This is a lousy link due to my self-imposed
restriction on using non-commercial sites.
However, SilverGen makes commercial colloidal silver generators.
They provide SEM photos at http://www.silvergen.com/toppage2.htm
They also show the Tyndall effect in high and low concentrations of
colloidal silver.
http://www.silvergen.com/colloida2.htm
They use only pure steam-distilled water and do not add salt. If
needed, they recommend only adding a small amount of a previous
batch to start the electrolysis.
http://www.silvergen.com/howto.htm
Can you give the equations for the production of Ag2O?
Here are the observed facts using only pure distilled water and a
constant voltage source between 18 and 27 volts, or a
resistive-limited current source driven from 160 volts. No salt is
used to start the reaction.
The process is done when the current reaches 1.5 ma using the 18
volt source, or after 30 minutes using the 160 volt source and a
series resistor.
1. If you start with clean, shiny silver electrodes, at the end of
the process the positive anode will end up dull and the negative
electrode remains shiny.
2. The current starts out at a low value. It increases at a rate
very close to f(t) = t^2 using the 18 volt source.
3. Bubbles form at the negative electrode.
4. Fine black feathers form at the positive and negative electrodes.
5. If you let the process continue past the normal limit, bubbles
may or may not form at the positive electrode.
6. If you let the process continue past the normal limit, a brown or
yellow mist may start streaming away from the negative electrode.
When the process is done, you can pour inch of liquid into a small
glass and add a few grains of salt. In a few minutes, a beautiful
pale blue/white dispersion appears. If you put the glass in direct
sunlight, the color changes from pale blue to a pale gray.
[...]
> peter crowcroft
> http://kitsrus.com
> PO Box 88458, Sham Shui Po
> Hong Kong
Best Regards,
Michael R. Monett
Mike Monett
[...]
>> I have used the Tyndall effect. It works, but only as a
>> semi-qualitative tool. It really doesn't tell much about the
>> particles, as the above quote confirms.
> Ag2O in solution colloidally can have the same effect. Only by
> microprobe scan can you tell the clumps you are seeing is
> elemental silver. This is rock-bottom, basic chemistry.
You need to take a course in basic physics. Ag2O is silver oxide. It
is black and does not reflect light. You apparently cannot explain
how it is produced.
When you shine laser light through a solution of colloidal silver,
you sometimes see pinpoints of light. These are known as sparklers.
These are mentioned in the Tyndall Effect article at
http://www.silvergen.com/colloida2.htm
How can AgO2 do that?
I checked on your suggestion to use a microprobe. It appears to have
a minimum beam diameter of about one micron.
It is useless for determining the chemical makeup of particles in
colloidal silver. The particles are much smaller.
It is doubtful that you studied colloidal silver in your chemistry
courses. So your pre-conceived notions of what is occurring are
likely wrong.
A guy named Marshall Dudley had a similar experience to mine. He
posted a question to sci.chem in 1998 about colloidal silver. He met
the same wall of disbelief and dire warnings about Argyria.
He tried to explain why he was involved. You can read his
description in message 6 of the thread at
Sorry if the link is too long and wraps in your browser. Anyway, he
now can be found at Mike Devour's Silver List at
http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html
They are still trying to figure out how the chemistry works. But
there is no doubt in anyone's mind who has tried it and found it
solved a problem they were having.
> The fact that bacteria are killed in a petri dish by the silver
> oxide solution has no relation to what happens in the human
> stomach when the solution is drunk.
You have not proven there is any silver oxide in the colloidal
silver solution. It is possible the black feathers that form at the
electrodes are silver oxide. But that does not explain the Tyndall
Effect.
Someone mentioned earlier that bandages containing silver are now
used in hospitals. One company that makes them is Argentum Medical,
LLC. The product is called Silverlon. They make a wide range of
products. The url is
They performed a wide range of tests to obtain FDA approval. The
tests are at
http://www.silverlon.com/studies.html
The tests to show the effectiveness against bacteria are near the
bottom of the page.
The results are it killed every type of bacteria tested.
One of the studies referenced is
Becker, R.O. and Spadero, J.A., Treatment of Orthopedic Infections
with Electrically Generated Silver Ions. J. Bone Jt. Surgerv.,
60-A, 871,1978.
I believe the description for these studies is to implant silver
electrodes in the tissue and apply a small electric current.
The FDA approvals for Silverlon are at
http://www.silverlon.com/fda.html
Apparently the FDA allows silver to be applied to wounds and burns,
but doesn't want it to be taken internally.
That makes sense. People would not need doctors as much.
> peter crowcroft
> http://kitsrus.com
> PO Box 88458, Sham Shui Po
> Hong Kong
Michael R. Monett
Bob Wilson
mrmo...@yahoo.com says...news:<m2hpsto4mntifhpluig
>3a6f3mg...@4ax.com>...
>> On Tue, 16 Oct 2001 13:34:19 -0400, Mike Monett <mrmo...@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>
>> peter crowcroft
>> http://kitsrus.com
>> PO Box 88458, Sham Shui Po
>> Hong Kong
>
> [...]
>
> >> I have used the Tyndall effect. It works, but only as a
> >> semi-qualitative tool. It really doesn't tell much about the
> >> particles, as the above quote confirms.
>
> > Ag2O in solution colloidally can have the same effect. Only by
> > microprobe scan can you tell the clumps you are seeing is
> > elemental silver. This is rock-bottom, basic chemistry.
>
> You need to take a course in basic physics. Ag2O is silver oxide. It
> is black and does not reflect light. You apparently cannot explain
> how it is produced.
And you only need to take a basic course in physics to know that small
clumps of some tens of atoms such as make up any colloidal suspension are
smaller than a wavelenght of light, and therefore cannot even have a colour,
nor can any particle this much smaller than a wavelength, "reflect" light.
Bob.
Mike Monett
The particle size in colloidal silver has a fairly wide distribution. Some
particles are small, some are large.
As I mentioned, it is not a quantitative test. It is basically only good to give
someone confidence when they are just beginning to make cs to let them know it's
working.
I prefer the test described in my article. Adding a few crystals of salt
produces a nice pale blue dispersion as the ions are converted to silver
chloride. It's fun to watch.
These tests show that colloidal silver has two forms. One ionic, the other
particulate.
You are going to love this. When I first started, everyone focused on the
particles as being the beneficial aspect of colloidal silver. The ionic form was
just a byproduct of the process and was quickly converted to silver chloride as
soon as it entered the body. It passed through the intestines and was
eliminated.
I was just looking through the archives of the silver list, and it dawned on me
that they now consider the ionic form to be desirable. At least, some of them
do.
They were using hydrogen peroxide to dissolve the particles and convert the
silver to ionic form. The Tyndall effect disappeared, showing the silver
particles were indeed dissolved by the hydrogen peroxide.
I'll have to resubscribe to the silver list and ask them why they changed their
mind.
Actually, it seems colloidal silver is very robust. It has been made many
different ways, and it still seems to work the same no matter how it is made.
The stuff I make is mostly ionic, with a very small particulate content. It sure
did the job for me to kill the shingles. So there's a lot we don't know about
it, except it works.
Mike Monett
> Mike Monett wrote:
>
> >
> > They
> > circulate and come in contact with invading bacteria and viruses and
> > disable them.
>
> Just exactly what is the molecular mechanism by which that occurs?
>
> >
> > The silver particles are distributed by the bloodstream and kill the
> > bacteria and viruses they come in contact with, and ...
>
> Just exactly what is the molecular mechanism by which that occurs?
>
> >
> > There are some parts of the body that do not have much blood circulation,
> > such as the eyes. I have successfully stopped an eye infection with a few
> > drops of colloidal silver applied to my eye. I repeated the application
> > after a few hours. At the end of the third application, the infection was
> > gone.
>
> Hmmm...do you think it will cure anthrax?
I don't know. It is not much concern in Canada. Less than 50 people
have come in contact with it in the US. Some have died.
Cipro is the antibiotic of choice for anthrax. The side effects are
described as minor. From a med-reviewed article on
http://my.webmd.com/content/article/1728.91509
"Common side effects of Cipro and other antibiotics tend to be minor
and include nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, and headaches. But there have
also been reports of serious allergic reactions and even fatal
interactions with other medications. And Cipro is not recommended for
pregnant women or children because studies suggest it can interfere
with the development of cartilage in the young."
There may be other side effects. This just appeared on the Silver
List:
http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/m42019.html
> Recently while discussing the possible misuse of
> Cipro in CNN's 10:30
> P.M. segment of October 17th, Dr. Gilbert Ross of
> the American Council on
> Science and Health said, "Sporadic improper (taking
> it once and skipping
> a few days to take some more) use of Cipro can cause
> more damage than
> Anthrax."
The article describes a minister who lost all kidney function several
years ago as a result of taking Cipro. You can disregard the
information as a possible hoax, or try to email the person and ask for
more information. I have no reason to believe it is a hoax.
I assure you I am not speaking as an advocate of colloidal silver, or
trying to attack the medical establishment in any way, or trying to
salvage an impossible position in this group. I am not concerned about
this.
My concern is there may be side effects to Cipro that are not clearly
stated. For those who are concerned about Anthrax, please seek more
information about the use of Cipro and possible side effects.
Jim Thompson
[snip]
|
|I assure you I am not speaking as an advocate of colloidal silver, or
|trying to attack the medical establishment in any way, or trying to
|salvage an impossible position in this group. I am not concerned about
|this.
|
|My concern is there may be side effects to Cipro that are not clearly
|stated. For those who are concerned about Anthrax, please seek more
|information about the use of Cipro and possible side effects.
Most assuredly *all* medications can have adverse reactions in *some*
people.
In my case I had a sinus infection that progressed to abscess a tooth,
requiring a root canal. Yet the infection raged on under ordinary
antibiotics. A 20-day round of Cipro knocked it out completely.
I had no reactions, not even gut-related, since I take acidophilus
regularly.
(If replying by E-mail please observe obscure method of anti-spam.)
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| Jim-T@analog_innovations.com Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
For proper E-mail replies SWAP "-" and "_".
Mike Monett
>
> On 24 Oct 2001 14:57:01 -0700, mrmo...@yahoo.com (Mike Monett) wrote:
>
> [snip]
> |
> |I assure you I am not speaking as an advocate of colloidal silver, or
> |trying to attack the medical establishment in any way, or trying to
> |salvage an impossible position in this group. I am not concerned about
> |this.
> |
> |My concern is there may be side effects to Cipro that are not clearly
> |stated. For those who are concerned about Anthrax, please seek more
> |information about the use of Cipro and possible side effects.
>
> Most assuredly *all* medications can have adverse reactions in *some*
> people.
This is not my point. The general side effects for Cipro are described as
"minor".
The worst-case is loose both kidneys, or other minor side effects such as
death.
The tail of the side-effect distribution may have much larger
consequences than are readily known.
> In my case I had a sinus infection that progressed to abscess a tooth,
> requiring a root canal. Yet the infection raged on under ordinary
> antibiotics. A 20-day round of Cipro knocked it out completely.
>
> I had no reactions, not even gut-related, since I take acidophilus
> regularly.
> ...Jim Thompson
Jim,
I just started taking acidophilus due to my advancing age (probably I
will catch up with you soon)
The recommendation is to find a product that lists active acidophilus. Is
there any product that does not have the "yucky" taste, or do I have to
learn how to cope with it?
I have to agree that once it gets past the tonsils, it seems ok.
Mildly off-topic for sed, but we all age sometime.
Best Rgards,
Michael R. Monett
Jim Thompson
wrote:
|Jim Thompson wrote:
|>
[snip]
|> Most assuredly *all* medications can have adverse reactions in *some*
|> people.
|
|This is not my point. The general side effects for Cipro are described as
|"minor".
|
|The worst-case is loose both kidneys, or other minor side effects such as
|death.
|
|The tail of the side-effect distribution may have much larger
|consequences than are readily known.
|
|> In my case I had a sinus infection that progressed to abscess a tooth,
|> requiring a root canal. Yet the infection raged on under ordinary
|> antibiotics. A 20-day round of Cipro knocked it out completely.
|>
|> I had no reactions, not even gut-related, since I take acidophilus
|> regularly.
|
|> ...Jim Thompson
|
|Jim,
|
|I just started taking acidophilus due to my advancing age (probably I
|will catch up with you soon)
|
|The recommendation is to find a product that lists active acidophilus. Is
|there any product that does not have the "yucky" taste, or do I have to
|learn how to cope with it?
|
|I have to agree that once it gets past the tonsils, it seems ok.
|
|Mildly off-topic for sed, but we all age sometime.
|
|Best Rgards,
|
|Michael R. Monett
I buy acidophilus milk (2% butterfat).
Robert
Mike Monett wrote:
>
> My concern is there may be side effects to Cipro that are not clearly
> stated. For those who are concerned about Anthrax, please seek more
> information about the use of Cipro and possible side effects.
Cipro is a dangerous antibiotic with a statistically high adverse
reaction rate of 13% and should only be taken when absolutely necessary
as at onset of infection, exposure, or high probability of exposure.
Anthony Fauci of NIAID spoke out against the widespread prophylactic use
of Cipro contemplated by government authorities in an interview on the
Wednesday Nightline. The very real danger in addition to the adverse
side effects is the inadvertent production of Cipro-resistant strains of
other deadly bacteria- these are bacteria other than anthrax for which
Cipro is the mainline defense, and these are bacteria that are native to
and prevalent in the environment. The potential death toll due to this
phenomenon is reasonably estimated to greatly exceed that of anthrax
resulting from a measured approach to Cipro administration.
A parallel danger also exists in a program of mass vaccination. Here
again the death toll due to adverse reaction will greatly exceed the
number of deaths expected in the scenario of waiting until real cause of
potential epidemic is present. And if you read the small print on many
of these vaccines, you will find that they will be of little help in a
biological warfare situation where the victim is hit with a mega-dose of
pathogen. It will just be too much for your immune system to handle.
This is because the vaccine does not really provide you with immunity in
the sense most people think. In reality, the vaccine has created an
immuno- "memory" of the infection which results in greatly reduced
reaction time and greatly increased production of immune defense cells-
but these are still finite times and finite cellular defenses that are
only produced when the pathogen is actually detected- so this may not be
enough in certain situations such as the biological warfare environment.
Now we are hearing news of suspicions of the West Nile Virus being an
deliberate terrorist introduction. As of this point in time, the
evidence is only circumstantial, like the indisputable scientific fact
of Middle Eastern origin, and you really can't ask for a better vector
than migrating birds. Afterall, this is how nature preserves and spreads
influenza.
Ultimately, the best defense is a good offense, which, in this case,
means to destroy those who would destroy you- save the antibiotics and
vaccines.
Richard Steven Walz
The dangers of ciproflaxacin to adults is overblown. The dangers are small.
The danger of inhaled anthrax is large. It shouldn't be used unless there
is an exposure close to you, or connected to your job, however. Children's
bone condyls and growth plates can be adversely affected, so they should
use penicillin or doxycycline. There is some danger of creating a resistant
strain, but the whole antrax family is SO easily killed by antibiotics that
it is doubtful in the short term.
I concur that we should blow the hell out of whoever might be doing it,
based only on suspcion and general principle, but these letters were mailed
in the USA and the anthrax was likely bred here by terrorist cells. How do
you know who to kill? Let's get the Iraqi's and Taliban, fine, but who
then? We need to inhibit the ability iof ALL immigrants, aliens and even
naturalized citizens, to move freely and to act like citizens.
To do this we may very well need to make housing, gasoline, food, and other
commodities for sale ONLY to card-carrying Americans by birth, and secondarily
to naturalized citizens who are in good standing with families and friends
among born Americans who can vouch for them, and they should submit to
searches and travel to other areas ONLY at the pleasure of the State Dept.
No young male immigrant, naturalized citizens or male aliens without families
in this country should be permitted unlimited travel, lodging, gas, housing
rental or purchase, and this needs to be done with a national identity card
with a holographic or PGP level unbeatable encryption of its validity tokens.
The immigrants who belong to questionable organizations must be ejected.
They must not be allowed major unsupervised housing or commodities purchases,
their identity must be determined and they must be required to remain in one
area with citizen SPONSORS watching them at close quarters, their privacy
and movement MUST be limited and their houses searched at random.
In short, anyone wishing entry to the USA must be limited to a location and
purpose for their residency here, and must submit to searches as law
enforcement decides, and they are subject to all invasions of privacy.
If they join organizations they MUST tell the department of state or be
subject to arrest. If they wish to travel they should need an approved
travel plan. The simplest way for an honest visitor to avoid most of this
should be by enlisting the help of born citizen sponsors who remain with
them most days as close friends who know their business.
-Steve
--
-Steve Walz rst...@armory.com ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew
-Electronics Site!! 1000 Files/50 Dirs!! http://www.armory.com/~rstevew
Europe Naples, Italy: ftp://ftp.unina.it/pub/electronics/ftp.armory.com
Robert
This is not right. You are confusing the individual with a population.
The dangers are not small enough when administered to a very large
population like well over a million people. The casualties of this have
to be normalized to the casualties of anthrax- no contest.
> The danger of inhaled anthrax is large.
This is a very small to non-existent danger to most of the population.
> It shouldn't be used unless there
> is an exposure close to you, or connected to your job, however. Children's
> bone condyls and growth plates can be adversely affected, so they should
> use penicillin or doxycycline.
> There is some danger of creating a resistant
> strain, but the whole antrax family is SO easily killed by antibiotics that
> it is doubtful in the short term.
You are missing the point. It *is not* a resistant strain of anthrax
that is the danger; it *is* resistant strains of other types of bacteria
such as certain enteric bacteria that create the risk.
>
> I concur that we should blow the hell out of whoever might be doing it,
> based only on suspcion and general principle, but these letters were mailed
> in the USA and the anthrax was likely bred here by terrorist cells. How do
> you know who to kill?
The leadership is well-known. You can start by executing them-
[...snip other stuff...]
There you go putting an unnecessary burden on America which would not be
required if we thoroughly destroy the immediate threats and create an
effective off-shore surveillance system.
Richard Steven Walz
We already DO use Cipro for over 20 million Americans per year. Explain why
this is measurably worse. You won't be able to. Beyond a certain size
cohort no antibiotic causes bacteria to become resistant any faster.
>> The danger of inhaled anthrax is large.
>
>This is a very small to non-existent danger to most of the population.
-----------------------------
Inhaled anthrax without prompt treatment is more than 50% fatal.
I wasn't talking about most of us who are not infected, I don't know why
you did.
>> It shouldn't be used unless there
>> is an exposure close to you, or connected to your job, however. Children's
>> bone condyls and growth plates can be adversely affected, so they should
>> use penicillin or doxycycline.
>
>
>> There is some danger of creating a resistant
>> strain, but the whole antrax family is SO easily killed by antibiotics that
>> it is doubtful in the short term.
>
>You are missing the point. It *is not* a resistant strain of anthrax
>that is the danger; it *is* resistant strains of other types of bacteria
>such as certain enteric bacteria that create the risk.
--------------------
Yes, yes, but as I said, it is already used on 20 million people a year
here, and the development of resistance in the bacterial population is not
at all proportional to usage beyond a certain point, in fact, epidemiology
dictates that people SHOULD use it beyond a certain general usage, because
it won't be long before it is useless and we have to find new ones. They
should use up those opportunities to kill current bacteria with it. it's
like military secrets, the most fleeting of all, as Cmdr. Spock said to the
Romulan commander.
>> I concur that we should blow the hell out of whoever might be doing it,
>> based only on suspcion and general principle, but these letters were mailed
>> in the USA and the anthrax was likely bred here by terrorist cells. How do
>> you know who to kill?
>
>The leadership is well-known. You can start by executing them-
-----------------------------------
No, that is irrelevant. Those who are here will continue to wreak havoc for
decades if permitted. They don't even care if the rest of Islam is wiped
from the earth, this last year they gave up the notion of winning, and
decided to settle for vengeance and suicide.
>[...snip other stuff...]
>
>There you go putting an unnecessary burden on America which would not be
>required if we thoroughly destroy the immediate threats and create an
>effective off-shore surveillance system.
---------------------------------------
The terrorists are already on shore, by the dozens. Grow up. The problem is
not elsewhere, it is HERE. The job will be to keep MORE of "there" from
getting into "here".
Robert
Richard Steven Walz wrote:
> >> ---------------------------
> >> The dangers of ciproflaxacin to adults is overblown. The dangers are small.
> >
> >This is not right. You are confusing the individual with a population.
> >The dangers are not small enough when administered to a very large
> >population like well over a million people. The casualties of this have
> >to be normalized to the casualties of anthrax- no contest.
> -------------------------
> We already DO use Cipro for over 20 million Americans per year. Explain why
> this is measurably worse. You won't be able to. Beyond a certain size
> cohort no antibiotic causes bacteria to become resistant any faster.
You're just not paying attention when you make this statement. The
difference is that the conventional patient is dealing with an immediate
medical issue and he/ she is usually on the antibiotic for a short time
duration. The original regimen for anthrax exposure was only seven days.
There is no such thing as a permanent antibiotic prescription. Now
compare this to a probably long term/ indefinite use of Cipro being
contemplated in the anthrax situation. Do you see how this is a major
difference? This will be an abuse, and these people *will* develop
resistant bacteria strains- and there is a good chance that those
strains will be a communicable infection.
See http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/795_antibio.htm for an overview.
>
> >> The danger of inhaled anthrax is large.
> >
> >This is a very small to non-existent danger to most of the population.
> -----------------------------
> Inhaled anthrax without prompt treatment is more than 50% fatal.
> I wasn't talking about most of us who are not infected, I don't know why
> you did.
I think the mortality is 95% when treatment is delayed until onset of
symptoms.
> --------------------
> Yes, yes, but as I said, it is already used on 20 million people a year
> here, and the development of resistance in the bacterial population is not
> at all proportional to usage beyond a certain point,
Right- it is a very complex and unpredictable relation involving as much
chance as anything else. There could be an abrupt increase in resistant
strains.
> in fact, epidemiology
> dictates that people SHOULD use it beyond a certain general usage, because
> it won't be long before it is useless and we have to find new ones. They
> should use up those opportunities to kill current bacteria with it. it's
> like military secrets, the most fleeting of all, as Cmdr. Spock said to the
> Romulan commander.
This is out of line with reality- new antibiotics are not developed
overnight.
>
> >> I concur that we should blow the hell out of whoever might be doing it,
> >> based only on suspcion and general principle, but these letters were mailed
> >> in the USA and the anthrax was likely bred here by terrorist cells. How do
> >> you know who to kill?
> >
> >The leadership is well-known. You can start by executing them-
> -----------------------------------
> No, that is irrelevant. Those who are here will continue to wreak havoc for
> decades if permitted. They don't even care if the rest of Islam is wiped
> from the earth, this last year they gave up the notion of winning, and
> decided to settle for vengeance and suicide.
>
> >[...snip other stuff...]
> >
> >There you go putting an unnecessary burden on America which would not be
> >required if we thoroughly destroy the immediate threats and create an
> >effective off-shore surveillance system.
> ---------------------------------------
> The terrorists are already on shore, by the dozens. Grow up. The problem is
> not elsewhere, it is HERE. The job will be to keep MORE of "there" from
> getting into "here".
You will never see the measures you propose in place here. This would be
a clear sign of defeat. It makes no sense to imprison 250M Americans
because of maybe 200 nutcases. We know who they are- and they cannot
hide for long- they cannot do much when they are in hiding- they cannot
do much when their money runs out. It will soon be over for them.
Robert
Robert wrote:
>
> See http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/795_antibio.htm for an overview.
This should be http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/795_antibio.html and
also http://www.cdc.gov/drugresistance/ is a good one.
Richard Steven Walz
>overnight.
No, but we DO have a few more advanced ones after Cipro and that family now.
And that gives us a little padding.
>> The terrorists are already on shore, by the dozens. Grow up. The problem is
>> not elsewhere, it is HERE. The job will be to keep MORE of "there" from
>> getting into "here".
>
>You will never see the measures you propose in place here.
--------------------------
Then we will see a lot more deaths.
> This would be
>a clear sign of defeat. It makes no sense to imprison 250M Americans
>because of maybe 200 nutcases.
-----------------------------
It need not be. A citizenship ID can be a badge of honor after 9/11.
We can speak of it being for the duration. I think it might be made
voluntary and it would STILL target those who need to be targetted when
they turn up without one.
> We know who they are- and they cannot
>hide for long- they cannot do much when they are in hiding- they cannot
>do much when their money runs out. It will soon be over for them.
------------------------------------
You might be right, just a hightened sense of notice might be all it
takes, over time. But we need to put in place barriers to future
immigration of terrorist moles. Even if we nuked Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan,
Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia and Syria this would still be true.
-Steve
Robert
Richard Steven Walz wrote:
> >
> >You will never see the measures you propose in place here.
> --------------------------
> Then we will see a lot more deaths.
>
> > This would be
> >a clear sign of defeat. It makes no sense to imprison 250M Americans
> >because of maybe 200 nutcases.
> -----------------------------
> It need not be. A citizenship ID can be a badge of honor after 9/11.
> We can speak of it being for the duration. I think it might be made
> voluntary and it would STILL target those who need to be targetted when
> they turn up without one.
You must have missed the news that one of the masterminds, who is now on
a top three most wanted list, is an American citizen- by birth. The
problem is that the terrorist organizations recruit from sympathetic
morons already living in the west. What better candidates- they already
know the territory and they are acculturated, and therefore are able to
pass themselves off as Joe Blow Simpleton.
Also, there is not enough law enforcement in the world to handle the
millions of false reports and cranks. This anthrax powder scare is
running the system ragged- very high false alarm rate- either from
hysterics or pranksters or other forms of criminally insane behavior.
Whatever is eventually done, it will not entail enlisting the help of
the American populace at large- they are pathetic.
Ken
Robert wrote:
> Whatever is eventually done, it will not entail enlisting the help of
> the American populace at large- they are pathetic.
Especially those living on the east coast.
<duck>
--
Ken Tyler
Robert
Yes- and you think they're bad- God help us when it hits California...
N. Thornton
> this newgroup. Since we speak the common language of electronics, I
> figured somebody might do a simple experiment to see if the
> explanation of the electrolysis was correct.
Electrolysis would only need a few volts. Colloidal silver gens use
30v - this doesn't look like simple electrolysis to me.
> If they could get the same result, I was hoping that someone might
> be interested in the next step, which is to find a way to detect the
> presence of silver particles. This would be a major breakthrough.
I am not greatly knowledgeable re colloidal silver, but I was under
the impression the standard test for the particles was to shine a
laser pen through the solution. A little scattering will be seen.
It is interesting to read through all these posts and see just how
clouded people's thinking can be. We often imagine qualified people as
rational, but in reality few engineers have even been introduced to
the study of logic and reason, let alone become expert at it. Many of
these posts make very common reasoning errors, resulting in inability
to grasp the picture clearly.
To be expert in a subject I need not only technical knowledge, but
also the ability to reason clearly. This is especially true in medical
matters, where the average expert's reasoning is, frankly, poor.
Personally I think if we learnt these things as part of any expert
type qualification, the results we achieve in life would improve
greatly, and our health services would be way more competent. Also I
think we would be more aware of just how limited people often are in
that respect. I benefit a lot from having at least some idea of my own
limitations. And also from realising others' limitations too!
Interesting topic.
Joe Lane
"N. Thornton" <big...@meeow.co.uk> wrote in message
news:a7076635.0110...@posting.google.com...