Contract manufacturers vs board stuffers

[Phil Hobbs]

Hi, all,

There's a wide variety of services available for getting stuff built,
from prototype board stuffing to contracting out manufacturing. I've
never used any of them, which makes it a bit harder to make sound
recommendations to clients. It looks like I'll have the opportunity to
do a small board-in-box gizmosometime this winter, starting with a few
protos and then probably 20 finished units--a bit of a departure for me,
since my usual econlogical niche is
idea-algebra-simulation-proto-schematic-(somebody else lays it out and
builts it)-debug.

What's the wisdom on proto stuffing to small production? (Extra points
for suggesting vendors in the Northeast.)

Thanks

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

[Joerg]

Phil Hobbs wrote:
> Hi, all,
>
> There's a wide variety of services available for getting stuff built,
> from prototype board stuffing to contracting out manufacturing. I've
> never used any of them, which makes it a bit harder to make sound
> recommendations to clients. It looks like I'll have the opportunity to
> do a small board-in-box gizmosometime this winter, starting with a few
> protos and then probably 20 finished units--a bit of a departure for me,
> since my usual econlogical niche is
> idea-algebra-simulation-proto-schematic-(somebody else lays it out and
> builts it)-debug.
>
> What's the wisdom on proto stuffing to small production? (Extra points
> for suggesting vendors in the Northeast.)
>

If your definition of North extends into your old home contry talk to
James, he does prototyping and can also handle Eagle files:

http://www.stratforddigital.com/eds/hardware

I have used these guys and for me Colorado is "East":

http://www.aapcb.com/Home.aspx?

Another very good one in California:

http://www.wdburch.com/

Why does it have to be Northeast? Since the invention of the steam
locomotive and aeroplanes it shouldn't matter much :-)

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[Rich Webb]

On Mon, 24 Sep 2012 10:44:43 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:

>Hi, all,
>
>There's a wide variety of services available for getting stuff built,
>from prototype board stuffing to contracting out manufacturing. I've
>never used any of them, which makes it a bit harder to make sound
>recommendations to clients. It looks like I'll have the opportunity to
>do a small board-in-box gizmosometime this winter, starting with a few
>protos and then probably 20 finished units--a bit of a departure for me,
>since my usual econlogical niche is
>idea-algebra-simulation-proto-schematic-(somebody else lays it out and
>builts it)-debug.
>
>What's the wisdom on proto stuffing to small production? (Extra points
>for suggesting vendors in the Northeast.)

Somebody within reasonable driving distance that will give you a good
tour of their facility and will let you spot-check what they're doing
for other clients (modulo NDA issues, of course). How do they
handle/secure customer supplied items? Does their ESD and general
packaging and handling routine give you a warm'n'fuzzy?

--
Rich Webb Norfolk, VA

[Phil Hobbs]

Thanks.

It doesn't have to be Northeast, except that I like to deal with people
that I know.

What do you pay for having prototypes stuffed?

Cheers

[George Herold]

On Sep 24, 10:44 am, Phil Hobbs

We use Badger a lot.
http://www.badgertech.com/

They are 'local' for us. (Just down route 90.)

It's nice to be able and go and talk to someone. "This ceramic cap is
the one causing problems."

No problems so far.... except even they can put a tant cap in
backwards. :^)

George H.

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Mon, 24 Sep 2012 10:44:43 -0400) it happened Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote in
<tM6dneXs29lG7P3N...@supernews.com>:

>Hi, all,
>
>There's a wide variety of services available for getting stuff built,
>from prototype board stuffing to contracting out manufacturing. I've
>never used any of them, which makes it a bit harder to make sound
>recommendations to clients. It looks like I'll have the opportunity to
>do a small board-in-box gizmosometime this winter, starting with a few
>protos and then probably 20 finished units--a bit of a departure for me,
>since my usual econlogical niche is
>idea-algebra-simulation-proto-schematic-(somebody else lays it out and
>builts it)-debug.
>
>What's the wisdom on proto stuffing to small production? (Extra points
>for suggesting vendors in the Northeast.)
>
>Thanks
>
>Phil Hobbs

Last series of ten had the boards etched and then build it myself.

Last series of 500 had the boards assembled (expensive), and boxes made.

[Phil Hobbs]

I can do 0603s manually with no worries, but 0402s slow me down enough
that it's usually uneconomic for the client to have me do it.

Cheers

[Joerg]

Just looked up a typical job, probably about 40-50 parts, including some
really tiny SMT. Boiled down to this:

Board fab (client wanted 50) : $ 975
Machine asssembly for 5 boards : $ 425
SMT placement machine programming: $ 125
Stencil : $ 250
Components (they bought them) : $ 250
Packaging : $ 50

This was full turn-key, meaning you send them the Gerbers, the BOM and a
check or credit card number and later you get stuffed boards back. We
didn't even have to order parts, they did. Also included were DRC/DFM
checks. Oh, and they sent a bag of trail mix along with the boards which
I thought was really nice.

[Joerg]

Forgot to mention, that board was about 1.500" by 1.500", figuring that
your project is in a similar ballpark.

[Joerg]

Phil Hobbs wrote:
> On 09/24/2012 11:39 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> On a sunny day (Mon, 24 Sep 2012 10:44:43 -0400) it happened Phil Hobbs
>> <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote in
>> <tM6dneXs29lG7P3N...@supernews.com>:
>>
>>> Hi, all,
>>>
>>> There's a wide variety of services available for getting stuff built,
>>> from prototype board stuffing to contracting out manufacturing. I've
>>> never used any of them, which makes it a bit harder to make sound
>>> recommendations to clients. It looks like I'll have the opportunity to
>>> do a small board-in-box gizmosometime this winter, starting with a few
>>> protos and then probably 20 finished units--a bit of a departure for me,
>>> since my usual econlogical niche is
>>> idea-algebra-simulation-proto-schematic-(somebody else lays it out and
>>> builts it)-debug.
>>>
>>> What's the wisdom on proto stuffing to small production? (Extra points
>>> for suggesting vendors in the Northeast.)
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Phil Hobbs
>>
>> Last series of ten had the boards etched and then build it myself.
>>
>> Last series of 500 had the boards assembled (expensive), and boxes made.
>>
>
> I can do 0603s manually with no worries, but 0402s slow me down enough
> that it's usually uneconomic for the client to have me do it.
>

What I found to be a real problem, and in light of the high unemployment
numbers I totally do not understand that: You can't get a decent local
tech for a day or two and have him/her hand-stuff boards at their place.
I mean, you'd think that in this day and age one would find some folks'
web pages. You can find a gazillion PC repair and PC virus fumigator
dudes, you can find layouters, you can find 8051 programmers, but no HW
assemblers.

There's real biz opportunity out there, money is literally being left on
the table or goes out of the community where it wouldn't have to. Beats
me why.

[Nico Coesel]

Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>Phil Hobbs wrote:
>> On 09/24/2012 11:39 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>> On a sunny day (Mon, 24 Sep 2012 10:44:43 -0400) it happened Phil Hobbs
>>> <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote in
>>> <tM6dneXs29lG7P3N...@supernews.com>:
>>>
>>>> Hi, all,
>>>>
>>>> There's a wide variety of services available for getting stuff built,
>>>> from prototype board stuffing to contracting out manufacturing. I've
>>>> never used any of them, which makes it a bit harder to make sound
>>>> recommendations to clients. It looks like I'll have the opportunity to
>

>There's real biz opportunity out there, money is literally being left on
>the table or goes out of the community where it wouldn't have to. Beats
>me why.

I wouldn't want boards with hand soldered SMD components. Especially
when the soldering has to be lead free. To get SMD right you'll need
at least a good reflow oven preferably with a nitrogen protective
atmosphere. To make the most of that investment you are better of
getting a pick & place machine as well.

--
Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply
indicates you are not using the right tools...
nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
--------------------------------------------------------------

[Joerg]

Nico Coesel wrote:
> Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>> On 09/24/2012 11:39 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>> On a sunny day (Mon, 24 Sep 2012 10:44:43 -0400) it happened Phil Hobbs
>>>> <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote in
>>>> <tM6dneXs29lG7P3N...@supernews.com>:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi, all,
>>>>>
>>>>> There's a wide variety of services available for getting stuff built,
>>>>> from prototype board stuffing to contracting out manufacturing. I've
>>>>> never used any of them, which makes it a bit harder to make sound
>>>>> recommendations to clients. It looks like I'll have the opportunity to
>> There's real biz opportunity out there, money is literally being left on
>> the table or goes out of the community where it wouldn't have to. Beats
>> me why.
>
> I wouldn't want boards with hand soldered SMD components. Especially
> when the soldering has to be lead free. To get SMD right you'll need
> at least a good reflow oven preferably with a nitrogen protective
> atmosphere. To make the most of that investment you are better of
> getting a pick & place machine as well.
>

Often time is of the essence. If you need 2-3 prototypes stuffed by
tonight it is next to impossible to line that up with an assembly house,
even it it was in driving distances (which it usually isn't) or you had
the use of the corporate business jet.

Same if you want a bunch of ICs or transistors swapped out. A good
self-employed technician with the proper equipment can do that. The
equipment investment is nowadays very modest. You can buy decent Chinese
hot air stations for $100-200, plus maybe another $100 worth of nozzles.
Ok, their pumps may be a little louder than the usual ones but at that
prices I wouldn't complain. Then maybe a Metcal iron, and at some point
a little reflow oven. All this plus the usual computer won't take more
space than a regular work desk provides.

In fact, I am doing something like that right now. Why? Because there
are no local techs so I'll have to solder it myself. You can do amazing
things with a Weller ETS tip :-)

[rickman]

On 9/24/2012 2:00 PM, Joerg wrote:
> Nico Coesel wrote:
>> Joerg<inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>>> On 09/24/2012 11:39 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>>> On a sunny day (Mon, 24 Sep 2012 10:44:43 -0400) it happened Phil Hobbs
>>>>> <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote in
>>>>> <tM6dneXs29lG7P3N...@supernews.com>:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi, all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's a wide variety of services available for getting stuff built,
>>>>>> from prototype board stuffing to contracting out manufacturing. I've
>>>>>> never used any of them, which makes it a bit harder to make sound
>>>>>> recommendations to clients. It looks like I'll have the opportunity to
>>> There's real biz opportunity out there, money is literally being left on
>>> the table or goes out of the community where it wouldn't have to. Beats
>>> me why.
>>
>> I wouldn't want boards with hand soldered SMD components. Especially
>> when the soldering has to be lead free. To get SMD right you'll need
>> at least a good reflow oven preferably with a nitrogen protective
>> atmosphere. To make the most of that investment you are better of

>> getting a pick& place machine as well.

>>
>
> Often time is of the essence. If you need 2-3 prototypes stuffed by
> tonight it is next to impossible to line that up with an assembly house,
> even it it was in driving distances (which it usually isn't) or you had
> the use of the corporate business jet.
>
> Same if you want a bunch of ICs or transistors swapped out. A good
> self-employed technician with the proper equipment can do that. The
> equipment investment is nowadays very modest. You can buy decent Chinese
> hot air stations for $100-200, plus maybe another $100 worth of nozzles.
> Ok, their pumps may be a little louder than the usual ones but at that
> prices I wouldn't complain. Then maybe a Metcal iron, and at some point
> a little reflow oven. All this plus the usual computer won't take more
> space than a regular work desk provides.
>
> In fact, I am doing something like that right now. Why? Because there
> are no local techs so I'll have to solder it myself. You can do amazing
> things with a Weller ETS tip :-)
>

I don't have access to local techs. My assembly house is an hour drive
away and although they are very good to work with, it isn't practical
for me to drive up there to get a couple of parts swapped out. I don't
like doing this work anymore as both my eyes and hands are nowhere near
as good as they used to be. So far it has not been a huge problem since
my designs are always perfect... lol!

I work with Niche Electronics Technology in Shippensburg, PA. They are
very cooperative and have never let me down in some four years of
working with them. I don't think they typically do huge production
runs, but a hundred pieces at a crack is no problem for them, either too
large or too big. I like to take my test stuff with me so I can test in
their factory. At the end of the day I walk out with 100 working and
tested boards (or once 99 when they needed to order a part for a
repair). They also do mechanical assembly.

Rick

[Phil Hobbs]

Thanks, that's reassuring. Mine is about 6 x 4 inches, BOM probably
$150 per board, 150ish parts.

[Phil Hobbs]

>> In fact, I am doing something like that right now. Why? Because theren

>> are no local techs so I'll have to solder it myself. You can do amazing
>> things with a Weller ETS tip :-)
>>
>
> I don't have access to local techs. My assembly house is an hour drive
> away and although they are very good to work with, it isn't practical
> for me to drive up there to get a couple of parts swapped out. I don't
> like doing this work anymore as both my eyes and hands are nowhere near
> as good as they used to be. So far it has not been a huge problem since
> my designs are always perfect... lol!
>
> I work with Niche Electronics Technology in Shippensburg, PA. They are
> very cooperative and have never let me down in some four years of
> working with them. I don't think they typically do huge production runs,
> but a hundred pieces at a crack is no problem for them, either too large
> or too big. I like to take my test stuff with me so I can test in their
> factory. At the end of the day I walk out with 100 working and tested
> boards (or once 99 when they needed to order a part for a repair). They
> also do mechanical assembly.
>
> Rick

Lead free? What's that? ;)

SMD work with 63-37 RA flux solder isn't so hard, at least down to 0603
& SC70 size. Smaller than that gets hard.

Niche is about 4-1/2 hours from here, it looks like, so that's on the
very outer edge of day trips, but that's closer than Colorado. There
are a few round here, e.g. one in Poughkeepsie (an hour north) and a few
on Long Island (indeterminate time southeast).

[Phil Hobbs]

Any Long Island or NJ lurkers care to chime in?

Thanks

[Nico Coesel]

I do most of that work myself. Sometimes I do a bit of rework for
clients as well. Swapping out some components to see what went wrong
on big production runs.

>equipment investment is nowadays very modest. You can buy decent Chinese
>hot air stations for $100-200, plus maybe another $100 worth of nozzles.

That is quite expensive. I recently got this one for the things that
are too small for a regular heat gun (aka paint stripper):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-ATTEN-AT-858D-858D-SMD-Hot-Air-Gun-Rework-Station-Solder-220V-/120922092979

>In fact, I am doing something like that right now. Why? Because there
>are no local techs so I'll have to solder it myself. You can do amazing
>things with a Weller ETS tip :-)

If you mean 'interesting ways to toss them in the bin' then you are
right. I went through lots of these at a former employer until I got a
proper Ersa soldering station. These tips are too small to transfer
heat properly so you keep cranking the temperature up which burns the
flux before it can do something. Get a bigger tip and a flux pen to
make your life much easier.

[Joerg]

That is neat and small. Oh, a possible new toy, tempting, tempting ...
<drool> ...

>> In fact, I am doing something like that right now. Why? Because there
>> are no local techs so I'll have to solder it myself. You can do amazing
>> things with a Weller ETS tip :-)
>
> If you mean 'interesting ways to toss them in the bin' then you are
> right. I went through lots of these at a former employer until I got a
> proper Ersa soldering station. These tips are too small to transfer
> heat properly so you keep cranking the temperature up which burns the
> flux before it can do something. Get a bigger tip and a flux pen to
> make your life much easier.
>

You guys must be doing something wrong. Hint: They are not meant to
light a Van Nelle Halfzwaar with it :-)

The ETS in my Weller has been in there for several years. Ok, it's now a
bit blue around the collar but so is the exhaust pipe of a well-ridden
Harley-Davidson. I soldered a bunch of stuff with it an hour ago, no
problem. However, we don't have this meshugginah RoHS law here.

[lang...@fonz.dk]

On 24 Sep., 22:30, n...@puntnl.niks (Nico Coesel) wrote:

> Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >Nico Coesel wrote:

> >> Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
> >>> Phil Hobbs wrote:
> >>>> On 09/24/2012 11:39 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> >>>>> On a sunny day (Mon, 24 Sep 2012 10:44:43 -0400) it happened Phil Hobbs

> >>>>> <pcdhSpamMeSensel...@electrooptical.net>  wrote in
> >>>>> <tM6dneXs29lG7P3NnZ2dnUVZ_tudn...@supernews.com>:

> http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-ATTEN-AT-858D-858D-SMD-Hot-Air-Gun-Rework...

>
> >In fact, I am doing something like that right now. Why? Because there
> >are no local techs so I'll have to solder it myself. You can do amazing
> >things with a Weller ETS tip :-)
>
> If you mean 'interesting ways to toss them in the bin' then you are
> right. I went through lots of these at a former employer until I got a
> proper Ersa soldering station. These tips are too small to transfer
> heat properly so you keep cranking the temperature up which burns the
> flux before it can do something. Get a bigger tip and a flux pen to
> make your life much easier.
>

tried how well something like this works?

http://www.beta-estore.com/rkuk/order_product_details.html?p=13
http://www.beta-estore.com/rkuk/order_product_details.html?p=242

-Lasse

[Tim Williams]

"Nico Coesel" <ni...@puntnl.niks> wrote in message
news:50609acf....@news.kpn.nl...

>>There's real biz opportunity out there, money is literally being left on
>>the table or goes out of the community where it wouldn't have to. Beats
>>me why.
>
> I wouldn't want boards with hand soldered SMD components. Especially
> when the soldering has to be lead free. To get SMD right you'll need
> at least a good reflow oven preferably with a nitrogen protective
> atmosphere. To make the most of that investment you are better of
> getting a pick & place machine as well.

So? It's not exclusive. We know a guy who ran the assembly lines at a
local business -- when they outsourced it, he scooped up some reflow ovens
for pennies on the dollar. He does odd jobs out of his basement. :-)

It's win-win for everyone, really, because without the overhead,
home-grown assemblers charge a lot less than full-on houses do, and if you
don't like the work, you can just drive over and tell him off! :)

Tim

--
Deep Friar: a very philosophical monk.
Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

[Ecnerwal]

In article <acbg5u...@mid.individual.net>,

Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> Phil Hobbs wrote:

> > I can do 0603s manually with no worries, but 0402s slow me down enough
> > that it's usually uneconomic for the client to have me do it.
> >
>
> What I found to be a real problem, and in light of the high unemployment
> numbers I totally do not understand that: You can't get a decent local
> tech for a day or two and have him/her hand-stuff boards at their place.
> I mean, you'd think that in this day and age one would find some folks'
> web pages. You can find a gazillion PC repair and PC virus fumigator
> dudes, you can find layouters, you can find 8051 programmers, but no HW
> assemblers.
>
> There's real biz opportunity out there, money is literally being left on
> the table or goes out of the community where it wouldn't have to. Beats
> me why.

Well, you see, part of the problem is that you want someone local to
you, and I'm not. There seems to be a lot of this sort of stuff (well,
more in factories than as small contract jobs) going on 50-150 miles
away from me, and squat doodle here. Even 50 miles (which is not exactly
a thriving subset) is both a pain in the rear and an expense which makes
seeking that business less than appealing. Get rid of the ones that want
to pay $10 an hour and there's even less to be found. I've tried one of
the "contract job" systems which seemed somewhat less scam-like than
most, but have yet to see much appropriate from it (plenty of folks
willing to pay $250 for you to do their college projects for them,
though - how exciting...)

You're more like 3000 miles away, though FedEx could make that pretty
close for some versions of "close". I'm quite a bit closer (~3 hours
drive) to Phil, but might not really be at the scale he wants, if he's
looking for super-teeny parts on a pick-and-place basis. If part sizes
are reasonable and he's (in part) looking for "not Phil" hand labor in
the northeast, I might be able to help him out. I'm limited at present
to only if the projects are indeed of reasonable size or can have
spread-out delivery over time, since I'm only looking for
side/moonlighting work unless I develop a history of enough
side/moonlighting work to make pitching the day job (health insurance,
steady income, etc.) reasonable - I've not seen a huge amount of
indication that this is terribly reasonable to expect here - and I'm not
looking to move, nor do I at present have a list of clients being me to
find time to work on their projects. Still, 20 units of 150 parts reach
is not unreasonable if the turn-time is not so tight that "nights and
weekends" won't do and the parts can actually be held and soldered.
Repeat a few times and I might even grow an oven and a nitrogen
atmosphere for it. How's carbon dioxide for soldering? I could brew up
some beer and pipe the gas through an oven, I guess. I already grew a
hot air rework station...

Also, let's face it, I'm an enginerd, not a salsedroid. That's been
clear since the days of "sell crap items to raise money for <whatever>"
at school. I haven't taken up advertising because as soon as I think
about advertising I think about how to write the advertisement to fend
off the sort of business I don't want to spend time having to fend off -
the lazy idiot college projects, the consumer electronics repair, etc.
That makes me consider the intangible costs of doing business that way,
and I put off trying to recruit business that mostly does not appear to
exist around here. To be worth doing, it has to be adequately satisfying
and renumerative to offset the loss of time that I could enjoyably spend
doing other things. So if the guy who will work for $10 an hour suits
you, I'm not going to fight him for the work.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Please don't feed the trolls. Killfile and ignore them so they will go away.

[Nico Coesel]

"lang...@fonz.dk" <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote:

>On 24 Sep., 22:30, n...@puntnl.niks (Nico Coesel) wrote:
>> Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> >Nico Coesel wrote:
>> >> Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> >>> Phil Hobbs wrote:
>> >>>> On 09/24/2012 11:39 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:

>> >>>>> On a sunny day (Mon, 24 Sep 2012 10:44:43 -0400) it happened Phil H=
>obbs
>> >>>>> <pcdhSpamMeSensel...@electrooptical.net> =A0wrote in
>> >>>>> <tM6dneXs29lG7P3NnZ2dnUVZ_tudn...@supernews.com>:
>>
>> >>>>>> Hi, all,

>>
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-ATTEN-AT-858D-858D-SMD-Hot-Air-Gun-Rework...
>>
>> >In fact, I am doing something like that right now. Why? Because there
>> >are no local techs so I'll have to solder it myself. You can do amazing
>> >things with a Weller ETS tip :-)
>>
>> If you mean 'interesting ways to toss them in the bin' then you are
>> right. I went through lots of these at a former employer until I got a
>> proper Ersa soldering station. These tips are too small to transfer
>> heat properly so you keep cranking the temperature up which burns the
>> flux before it can do something. Get a bigger tip and a flux pen to
>> make your life much easier.
>>
>
>
>tried how well something like this works?
>

>http://www.beta-estore.com/rkuk/order_product_details.html?p=3D13
>http://www.beta-estore.com/rkuk/order_product_details.html?p=3D242

These links don't work...

[rickman]

On 9/24/2012 7:33 PM, Ecnerwal wrote:
> Also, let's face it, I'm an enginerd, not a salsedroid. That's been
> clear since the days of "sell crap items to raise money for<whatever>"
> at school. I haven't taken up advertising because as soon as I think
> about advertising I think about how to write the advertisement to fend
> off the sort of business I don't want to spend time having to fend off -
> the lazy idiot college projects, the consumer electronics repair, etc.
> That makes me consider the intangible costs of doing business that way,
> and I put off trying to recruit business that mostly does not appear to
> exist around here. To be worth doing, it has to be adequately satisfying
> and renumerative to offset the loss of time that I could enjoyably spend
> doing other things. So if the guy who will work for $10 an hour suits
> you, I'm not going to fight him for the work.

Heck, I pay $15 an hour to the guy who does odd jobs and yard work
around my house! What do you charge just out of curiosity? Do you flat
rate jobs or charge by the hour?

Rick

[BubbleSorter]

One of my former bosses has me come over and wire up something or
install a piece of gear in his house or plumbing or whatever. He is kind
of small frame, a bit heavy and getting older, so he is willing to pay.

When I worked for him (at his business) it was as an engineer.

When I do weekend work for him, he pays me $200 cash for a half day of
easy work, and takes me to lunch and or dinner as well.

A 'good' 'Jewish' 'joke'...

Q: "How many Jews does it take to change a light bulb?"

A: "Two, one to mix the Martinis, and one to call the electrician..."

[Michael A. Terrell]

The first link works.

[Jon Elson]

Nico Coesel wrote:


> I wouldn't want boards with hand soldered SMD components. Especially
> when the soldering has to be lead free. To get SMD right you'll need
> at least a good reflow oven preferably with a nitrogen protective
> atmosphere. To make the most of that investment you are better of
> getting a pick & place machine as well.
>

Nitrogen is not really needed, but good flux is! I had troubles
until I got some really fine solder paste from Warton Metals in the
UK. Expensive stuff to order from overseas, but the solder joints
look like the best tin/lead.

I did a contract assembly job for a company once, and it was a disaster.
They insisted on making their own solder stencil, and used 100% pad
size for the apertures, all the ICs floated away on a lake of solder.
I warned them this would happen, and they only paid me half for the
job.

Oh, and I do the reflow with a GE toaster oven with a thermocouple
temperature controller.

Jon

[Jasen Betts]

On 2012-09-25, Nico Coesel <ni...@puntnl.niks> wrote:

> "lang...@fonz.dk" <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote:
>>
>>http://www.beta-estore.com/rkuk/order_product_details.html?p=3D13
>>http://www.beta-estore.com/rkuk/order_product_details.html?p=3D242
>
> These links don't work...

yeah, your newsreader seems to lack support for

"Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable"

try these:

http://www.beta-estore.com/rkuk/order_product_details.html?p=13
http://www.beta-estore.com/rkuk/order_product_details.html?p=242

--
⚂⚃ 100% natural

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Tue, 25 Sep 2012 00:10:17 GMT) it happened ni...@puntnl.niks
(Nico Coesel) wrote in <5060f654....@news.kpn.nl>:

ried how well something like this works?
>>

>>http://www.beta-estore.com/rkuk/order_product_details.html?p=13
>>http://www.beta-estore.com/rkuk/order_product_details.html?p=242

>
>These links don't work...

They work here, the controller could be a DIY,
good price IMNSHO.

[Michael A. Terrell]

Use one of these http://www.ebay.com/itm/110786179586 and a SSR for
under $25 to control the toaster oven.

[George Herold]

On Sep 24, 7:33 pm, Ecnerwal
<MyNameForw...@ReplaceWithMyVices.Com.invalid> wrote:
> In article <acbg5uFe40...@mid.individual.net>,

> Please don't feed the trolls. Killfile and ignore them so they will go away.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

What city are you near Lawrence? We sometimes have ideas but not the
time to flesh things out. (small quantities... )

George H.

[Nico Coesel]

Jon Elson <el...@pico-systems.com> wrote:

>Nico Coesel wrote:
>
>
>> I wouldn't want boards with hand soldered SMD components. Especially
>> when the soldering has to be lead free. To get SMD right you'll need
>> at least a good reflow oven preferably with a nitrogen protective
>> atmosphere. To make the most of that investment you are better of
>> getting a pick & place machine as well.
>>
>Nitrogen is not really needed, but good flux is! I had troubles

Nitrogen does wonders with lead free soldering.

>I did a contract assembly job for a company once, and it was a disaster.
>They insisted on making their own solder stencil, and used 100% pad
>size for the apertures, all the ICs floated away on a lake of solder.
>I warned them this would happen, and they only paid me half for the
>job.

One thing I have learned is to let the board assembler take care of
everything so they can tune stencils, panels, etc to their process
parameters.

[Joerg]

Ecnerwal wrote:
> In article <acbg5u...@mid.individual.net>,
> Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>> I can do 0603s manually with no worries, but 0402s slow me down enough
>>> that it's usually uneconomic for the client to have me do it.
>>>
>> What I found to be a real problem, and in light of the high unemployment
>> numbers I totally do not understand that: You can't get a decent local
>> tech for a day or two and have him/her hand-stuff boards at their place.
>> I mean, you'd think that in this day and age one would find some folks'
>> web pages. You can find a gazillion PC repair and PC virus fumigator
>> dudes, you can find layouters, you can find 8051 programmers, but no HW
>> assemblers.
>>
>> There's real biz opportunity out there, money is literally being left on
>> the table or goes out of the community where it wouldn't have to. Beats
>> me why.
>
> Well, you see, part of the problem is that you want someone local to
> you, and I'm not. There seems to be a lot of this sort of stuff (well,
> more in factories than as small contract jobs) going on 50-150 miles
> away from me, and squat doodle here. Even 50 miles (which is not exactly
> a thriving subset) is both a pain in the rear and an expense which makes
> seeking that business less than appealing. Get rid of the ones that want

> to pay $10 an hour and there's even less to be found. ...


Out here the pay is much higher than that. For $10/h you can't even get
a gardener.


> ... I've tried one of

> the "contract job" systems which seemed somewhat less scam-like than

> most, but have yet to see much appropriate from it ...


The value those places add in this day and age of the Internet is often
limited. It does take the tax hassle away though, many companies don't
want to handle small jobs on a 1099-basis. Big ones, yes, but not 1-2
day assembly jobs. So if you are serious about the endeavor you might
want to consider starting as a small biz, just like a barber or the
local vacuum repair guy, and advertize as such. Advertize by writing to
the VP Engineering and VP Production of local biz, or the GM. Back when
I was GM and would have gotten such a letter I'd have let off a loud
yeehaw. Because it was very hard to find decent temps in that area.


> ... (plenty of folks

> willing to pay $250 for you to do their college projects for them,
> though - how exciting...)
>

That I would refuse, it's dishonest.

> You're more like 3000 miles away, though FedEx could make that pretty
> close for some versions of "close". I'm quite a bit closer (~3 hours
> drive) to Phil, but might not really be at the scale he wants, if he's
> looking for super-teeny parts on a pick-and-place basis. If part sizes
> are reasonable and he's (in part) looking for "not Phil" hand labor in
> the northeast, I might be able to help him out. I'm limited at present
> to only if the projects are indeed of reasonable size or can have
> spread-out delivery over time, since I'm only looking for
> side/moonlighting work unless I develop a history of enough
> side/moonlighting work to make pitching the day job (health insurance,
> steady income, etc.) reasonable - I've not seen a huge amount of

> indication that this is terribly reasonable to expect here - ...


Depends on the area, I don't know where you live. But if there aren't
many electronics or at least systems companies around then it might not
work out.


> ... and I'm not

> looking to move, nor do I at present have a list of clients being me to
> find time to work on their projects. Still, 20 units of 150 parts reach
> is not unreasonable if the turn-time is not so tight that "nights and
> weekends" won't do and the parts can actually be held and soldered.
> Repeat a few times and I might even grow an oven and a nitrogen
> atmosphere for it. How's carbon dioxide for soldering? I could brew up
> some beer and pipe the gas through an oven, I guess. I already grew a
> hot air rework station...
>
> Also, let's face it, I'm an enginerd, not a salsedroid. That's been
> clear since the days of "sell crap items to raise money for <whatever>"
> at school. I haven't taken up advertising because as soon as I think
> about advertising I think about how to write the advertisement to fend
> off the sort of business I don't want to spend time having to fend off -

Well, you've got to do it. If the non-EE part of such a business is
really appalling to you then maybe it's not so good to start that kind
of biz.

> the lazy idiot college projects, the consumer electronics repair, etc.

That can be spelled out on your web site. But don't diss consumer
electronics repair. There are people who'd give a arm and a leg if you
can make grandpa's old thingamagic work again. Just like guys restoring
classic cars usually make top Dollar.

> That makes me consider the intangible costs of doing business that way,
> and I put off trying to recruit business that mostly does not appear to
> exist around here. To be worth doing, it has to be adequately satisfying
> and renumerative to offset the loss of time that I could enjoyably spend
> doing other things. So if the guy who will work for $10 an hour suits
> you, I'm not going to fight him for the work.
>

If someone tried to get fine-pitch SMT soldering help at $10/h they will
learn their lesson fast, usually within the first hour. The same goes
for designs. I have seen the aftermath where folks tried to get a design
done for $5k fixed bid. They received a "design" alright, but zero in
proper documentation and it didn't work.

In the end it all depends on businesses in your area, or at least along
a commuter train corridor or something. For example, on Long Island the
distance is not all that important but only as long as it's close to the
LIRR train tracks and stations.

[lang...@fonz.dk]

On 25 Sep., 16:27, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> Ecnerwal wrote:
> > In article <acbg5uFe40...@mid.individual.net>,

> >  Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
> >> Phil Hobbs wrote:
> >>> I can do 0603s manually with no worries, but 0402s slow me down enough
> >>> that it's usually uneconomic for the client to have me do it.
>
> >> What I found to be a real problem, and in light of the high unemployment
> >> numbers I totally do not understand that: You can't get a decent local
> >> tech for a day or two and have him/her hand-stuff boards at their place.
> >> I mean, you'd think that in this day and age one would find some folks'
> >> web pages. You can find a gazillion PC repair and PC virus fumigator
> >> dudes, you can find layouters, you can find 8051 programmers, but no HW
> >> assemblers.
>
> >> There's real biz opportunity out there, money is literally being left on
> >> the table or goes out of the community where it wouldn't have to. Beats
> >> me why.
>
> > Well, you see, part of the problem is that you want someone local to
> > you, and I'm not. There seems to be a lot of this sort of stuff (well,
> > more in factories than as small contract jobs) going on 50-150 miles
> > away from me, and squat doodle here. Even 50 miles (which is not exactly
> > a thriving subset) is both a pain in the rear and an expense which makes
> > seeking that business less than appealing. Get rid of the ones that want
> > to pay $10 an hour and there's even less to be found. ...
>
> Out here the pay is much higher than that. For $10/h you can't even get
> a gardener.
>

around here I don't you could find a 15yo to sweep the floors for
that,
I think an 18yo flipping burgers at McD gets at least twice that at a
minimum

-Lasse

[Joerg]

Wow. Then the cost of living must be very high. From Germany I heard
very different stories, people working in jobs where they barely make
1000 Euros/month.

[Fred Bartoli]

Tim Williams a écrit :

> "Nico Coesel" <ni...@puntnl.niks> wrote in message
> news:50609acf....@news.kpn.nl...
>>> There's real biz opportunity out there, money is literally being left on
>>> the table or goes out of the community where it wouldn't have to. Beats
>>> me why.
>> I wouldn't want boards with hand soldered SMD components. Especially
>> when the soldering has to be lead free. To get SMD right you'll need
>> at least a good reflow oven preferably with a nitrogen protective
>> atmosphere. To make the most of that investment you are better of
>> getting a pick & place machine as well.
>
> So? It's not exclusive. We know a guy who ran the assembly lines at a
> local business -- when they outsourced it, he scooped up some reflow ovens
> for pennies on the dollar.


> He does odd jobs out of his basement. :-)

That's weird...

>
> It's win-win for everyone, really, because without the overhead,
> home-grown assemblers charge a lot less than full-on houses do, and if you
> don't like the work, you can just drive over and tell him off! :)
>
> Tim
>


--

Thanks,
Fred.

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

Quotes from our last (and next spin - later this week) of the board I'm
working on:

Board size (aprox) 2650mmx1050mm 2650mmx1650mm
Number of Components 900 1131
Stuffing cost $230ea. $275ea.
SMT Stencils $450 $450
SMT Programming $250 $250

We bought (or had donated ;) and kitted the components.

>>> This was full turn-key, meaning you send them the Gerbers, the BOM and a
>>> check or credit card number and later you get stuffed boards back. We
>>> didn't even have to order parts, they did. Also included were DRC/DFM
>>> checks. Oh, and they sent a bag of trail mix along with the boards which
>>> I thought was really nice.
>>>
>>
>> Forgot to mention, that board was about 1.500" by 1.500", figuring that
>> your project is in a similar ballpark.
>>
>
>Thanks, that's reassuring. Mine is about 6 x 4 inches, BOM probably
>$150 per board, 150ish parts.

No clue what the BOM costs were. A good chunk of the components, particularly
the more costly ones, were samples.

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

Most 15yo kids wouldn't do any work. Why?

>I think an 18yo flipping burgers at McD gets at least twice that at a

>minimum.

Where? My wife doesn't make much more than that working in a bank. Next week
she'll make zero. ;-)

[Joerg]

Wots a mee'maidr? :-)

> Number of Components 900 1131
> Stuffing cost $230ea. $275ea.
> SMT Stencils $450 $450
> SMT Programming $250 $250
>
> We bought (or had donated ;) and kitted the components.
>

Those look like very reasonable numbers to me. Can you share the
assembly house name?

Just to avoid a muisunderstanding, my numbers were totals, not per board.

[...]

[Joerg]

Fred Bartoli wrote:
> Tim Williams a écrit :
>> "Nico Coesel" <ni...@puntnl.niks> wrote in message
>> news:50609acf....@news.kpn.nl...
>>>> There's real biz opportunity out there, money is literally being
>>>> left on
>>>> the table or goes out of the community where it wouldn't have to. Beats
>>>> me why.
>>> I wouldn't want boards with hand soldered SMD components. Especially
>>> when the soldering has to be lead free. To get SMD right you'll need
>>> at least a good reflow oven preferably with a nitrogen protective
>>> atmosphere. To make the most of that investment you are better of
>>> getting a pick & place machine as well.
>>
>> So? It's not exclusive. We know a guy who ran the assembly lines at
>> a local business -- when they outsourced it, he scooped up some reflow
>> ovens for pennies on the dollar.
>
>
>> He does odd jobs out of his basement. :-)
>
> That's weird...
>

Not in America :-)

Hewlett and Packard started in a garage and it sure was not a fancy one.
Here it is:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/HP_garage_front.JPG

[lang...@fonz.dk]

On 25 Sep., 19:46, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Fred Bartoli wrote:
> > Tim Williams a écrit :

> >> "Nico Coesel" <n...@puntnl.niks> wrote in message

> >>news:50609acf....@news.kpn.nl...
> >>>> There's real biz opportunity out there, money is literally being
> >>>> left on
> >>>> the table or goes out of the community where it wouldn't have to. Beats
> >>>> me why.
> >>> I wouldn't want boards with hand soldered SMD components. Especially
> >>> when the soldering has to be lead free. To get SMD right you'll need
> >>> at least a good reflow oven preferably with a nitrogen protective
> >>> atmosphere. To make the most of that investment you are better of
> >>> getting a pick & place machine as well.
>
> >> So?  It's not exclusive.  We know a guy who ran the assembly lines at
> >> a local business -- when they outsourced it, he scooped up some reflow
> >> ovens for pennies on the dollar.
>
> >> He does odd jobs out of his basement. :-)
>
> > That's weird...
>
> Not in America :-)
>
> Hewlett and Packard started in a garage and it sure was not a fancy one.
> Here it is:
>
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/HP_garage_front.JPG
>

wasn't it google that started in a rented house, but just so they
could say
they started in a garage they worked in the garage a day each week :)

-Lasse

[lang...@fonz.dk]

On 25 Sep., 19:05, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

the tax is high and we have 25% vat, so it is probably a lot more
expensive
than the US. I think there are a lot more low paying jobs in
Germany
Many have started driving to Germany to get they car serviced because
it is
much cheaper

-Lasse

[Joerg]

:-)

It's amazing how many American companies start at kitchen tables, in
basements (but only in the east, in the west houses typically don't have
any), garages, sheds, or in the back of an old van.

I know one guy who runs his ME business out of his garage. It is so full
of big machines and tools that, depending on which job he works on, he
has to watch the weather forecast, then move a bunch of machines outside
and rearrange stuff.

[Ecnerwal]

Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> Ecnerwal wrote:

> > ... (plenty of folks
> > willing to pay $250 for you to do their college projects for them,
> > though - how exciting...)
> >
>
> That I would refuse, it's dishonest.

Gosh, no kidding, me too. Not only is is dishonest and helping
slimeballs who should fail, it's also usually a lot more than $250 worth
of work - slimeballs are not known for the high value they place on
people willing to help them cheat. I excrement-can those without going
beyond a glance to see that this is (often quite clearly) what it is.
But it's easily 50% of what comes up on that particular site.

> That can be spelled out on your web site. But don't diss consumer
> electronics repair. There are people who'd give a arm and a leg if you
> can make grandpa's old thingamagic work again.

The problem being that unless it really is grandpa's from when grandpa
was young, it's been designed to be uneconomic to repair for the past
several decades. Throwaway design has been quite effective. When it's
cheaper to buy a new one than to even determine what the problem is with
the old one, much less waste more time finding that repair parts are
(usually) unobtanium, consumer electronic repairs make little sense.
Thus my dissing of them, or at least leaving them to people that want
them.

> If someone tried to get fine-pitch SMT soldering help at $10/h they will
> learn their lesson fast, usually within the first hour. The same goes
> for designs. I have seen the aftermath where folks tried to get a design
> done for $5k fixed bid. They received a "design" alright, but zero in
> proper documentation and it didn't work.

Oh, I agree, but there seem to be optimists (or at least cheapskates)
out there. I sincerely hope they get exactly what they pay for.

> In the end it all depends on businesses in your area, or at least along
> a commuter train corridor or something. For example, on Long Island the
> distance is not all that important but only as long as it's close to the
> LIRR train tracks and stations.

Back in the 1950's you could evidently get to Boston in a couple of
hours by train from here, but not these days. I'm where MA, VT and NY
intersect, with a foothold in both MA and VT.

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

??

>> Number of Components 900 1131
>> Stuffing cost $230ea. $275ea.
>> SMT Stencils $450 $450
>> SMT Programming $250 $250
>>
>> We bought (or had donated ;) and kitted the components.
>>
>
>Those look like very reasonable numbers to me. Can you share the
>assembly house name?

I'm not going to solder several hundred 0402s for those prices! ;-)

We deal with "i-Tech e-Services" in Norcross, GA but the work is done by their
parent company, NCA (National Circuit Assemblies?), in Texas somewhere.

>Just to avoid a muisunderstanding, my numbers were totals, not per board.

Yes, that's why I put the "ea." designations on the stuffing cost line. Add a
zero to these lines for the ten boards, of each, we had built. I don't know
if these costs go down for higher quantities. Of course, the stencils and
programming doesn't vary by quantity.

[lang...@fonz.dk]

On 25 Sep., 20:05, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

I think that happens everywhere, when starting a business it makes
sense
to not spend money on a fancy place if you can get it for free by
parking
outside

> I know one guy who runs his ME business out of his garage. It is so full
> of big machines and tools that, depending on which job he works on, he
> has to watch the weather forecast, then move a bunch of machines outside
> and rearrange stuff.
>

must be lucky to not get in trouble with the neighbors and regulations
about
running a business in a residential area

-Lasse

[Ecnerwal]

rickman <gnu...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> What do you charge just out of curiosity? Do you flat
> rate jobs or charge by the hour?

I charge by the hour, which simplifies things in that I don't need to
estimate how long things will take, and generally tends towards keeping
the total cost to the contractee lower as I don't have to fudge-factor
for the unexpected in estimating. It also removes the temptation to go
so fast as to be sloppy in order to crank things out faster at a fixed
price. My integrity and work ethic don't allow for dawdling to run the
price up, and gains in speed with repetition are reaped by the customer,
who hopefully goes away happy and comes back with more work.

This year's rate is $65/hour at my bench - still cheaper than my car
mechanic. Since that's real money to me, I track it rather precisely
when working (time-clock database setup) so there are no $15 coffee
breaks (or if there are, they are on my time.) I guess some folks get
away with considerably higher rates, and I would certainly raise it if I
felt the market would bear it, but it's adequate to keep things
interesting for now.

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Tue, 25 Sep 2012 06:51:52 -0400) it happened "Michael A.
Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote in
<5YqdnQHApfdIEfzN...@earthlink.com>:

That is a price I cannot beat :-)

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Tue, 25 Sep 2012 10:05:49 -0700) it happened Joerg
<inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <ace6je...@mid.individual.net>:

>
>Wow. Then the cost of living must be very high. From Germany I heard
>very different stories, people working in jobs where they barely make
>1000 Euros/month.

This may interest you:
http://www.heise.de/jobs/meldung/Studie-IT-Freiberufler-verdienen-so-viel-wie-noch-nie-1703162.html

You need to work on your computah skills :-)
Dollar is about 1.3 Euro I think now.

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Tue, 25 Sep 2012 20:00:31 GMT) it happened Jan Panteltje
<pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote in <k3t2gi$c9m$1...@news.albasani.net>:

Oopps, Euro is about 1.3 dollar, so 100$ an hour should you get xp working ;-)

[Nico Coesel]

Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
>> On 25 Sep., 16:27, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> Ecnerwal wrote:
>>>> In article <acbg5uFe40...@mid.individual.net>,
>>>> Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>>>>> I can do 0603s manually with no worries, but 0402s slow me down enough
>>>>>> that it's usually uneconomic for the client to have me do it.
>>>>> What I found to be a real problem, and in light of the high unemployment

>>>> away from me, and squat doodle here. Even 50 miles (which is not exactly
>>>> a thriving subset) is both a pain in the rear and an expense which makes
>>>> seeking that business less than appealing. Get rid of the ones that want
>>>> to pay $10 an hour and there's even less to be found. ...
>>> Out here the pay is much higher than that. For $10/h you can't even get
>>> a gardener.
>>>
>>
>> around here I don't you could find a 15yo to sweep the floors for
>> that,
>> I think an 18yo flipping burgers at McD gets at least twice that at a
>> minimum
>>
>
>Wow. Then the cost of living must be very high. From Germany I heard
>very different stories, people working in jobs where they barely make
>1000 Euros/month.

Overall Germany is pretty cheap to live in these days. When I go to a
restaurant in Germany I pay half of what I pay in NL, Belgium or
France. Even in typical tourist attractions like the TV tower in
Berlin the prices are extremely reasonable. Its almost scary! For the
price of one bottle of cola in the Eiffel tower you can get 2 pieces
of pie, two glasses of cola, excellent seats and an excellent view in
Berlin's TV tower. OTOH driving around in Paris is way more
interesting :-)

[Joerg]

Southern, for millimeter :-)

>>> Number of Components 900 1131
>>> Stuffing cost $230ea. $275ea.
>>> SMT Stencils $450 $450
>>> SMT Programming $250 $250
>>>
>>> We bought (or had donated ;) and kitted the components.
>>>
>> Those look like very reasonable numbers to me. Can you share the
>> assembly house name?
>
> I'm not going to solder several hundred 0402s for those prices! ;-)
>
> We deal with "i-Tech e-Services" in Norcross, GA but the work is done by their
> parent company, NCA (National Circuit Assemblies?), in Texas somewhere.
>

Thanks, it's bookmarked. In case others are interested:

http://www.ncatx.com/custom/productandservice.html

>> Just to avoid a muisunderstanding, my numbers were totals, not per board.
>
> Yes, that's why I put the "ea." designations on the stuffing cost line. Add a
> zero to these lines for the ten boards, of each, we had built. I don't know

> if these costs go down for higher quantities. ...


They usually do, big time.


> ... Of course, the stencils and programming doesn't vary by quantity.


Yes, although sometimes they get thrown in for free if the order is
large enough.

[Joerg]

lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> On 25 Sep., 20:05, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

[...]

>> I know one guy who runs his ME business out of his garage. It is so full
>> of big machines and tools that, depending on which job he works on, he
>> has to watch the weather forecast, then move a bunch of machines outside
>> and rearrange stuff.
>>
>
> must be lucky to not get in trouble with the neighbors and regulations
> about
> running a business in a residential area
>

He's probably not making too much noise I guess.

[Michael A. Terrell]

Jan Panteltje wrote:
>
> On a sunny day (Tue, 25 Sep 2012 06:51:52 -0400) it happened "Michael A.
> Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote in
> <5YqdnQHApfdIEfzN...@earthlink.com>:
>
> >
> >Jan Panteltje wrote:
> >>
> >> On a sunny day (Tue, 25 Sep 2012 00:10:17 GMT) it happened ni...@puntnl.niks
> >> (Nico Coesel) wrote in <5060f654....@news.kpn.nl>:
> >> ried how well something like this works?
> >> >>
> >> >>http://www.beta-estore.com/rkuk/order_product_details.html?p=13
> >> >>http://www.beta-estore.com/rkuk/order_product_details.html?p=242
> >> >
> >> >These links don't work...
> >>
> >> They work here, the controller could be a DIY,
> >> good price IMNSHO.
> >
> >
> > Use one of these http://www.ebay.com/itm/110786179586 and a SSR for
> >under $25 to control the toaster oven.
>
> That is a price I cannot beat :-)

I bought one for my large solder pot.

[Joerg]

Ecnerwal wrote:
> Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Ecnerwal wrote:

[...]

>> That can be spelled out on your web site. But don't diss consumer
>> electronics repair. There are people who'd give a arm and a leg if you
>> can make grandpa's old thingamagic work again.
>
> The problem being that unless it really is grandpa's from when grandpa
> was young, it's been designed to be uneconomic to repair for the past
> several decades. Throwaway design has been quite effective. When it's
> cheaper to buy a new one than to even determine what the problem is with
> the old one, much less waste more time finding that repair parts are
> (usually) unobtanium, consumer electronic repairs make little sense.
> Thus my dissing of them, or at least leaving them to people that want
> them.
>

To me the only thing that would matter would be what's it worth to the
respective consumer. If they say "Can you repair this for under $20",
well, then one has to politely decline. But there are situations where a
gazillion valuable photos are on some device, nobody ever heard the word
backup, and then the thing croaked.

>> If someone tried to get fine-pitch SMT soldering help at $10/h they will
>> learn their lesson fast, usually within the first hour. The same goes
>> for designs. I have seen the aftermath where folks tried to get a design
>> done for $5k fixed bid. They received a "design" alright, but zero in
>> proper documentation and it didn't work.
>
> Oh, I agree, but there seem to be optimists (or at least cheapskates)
> out there. I sincerely hope they get exactly what they pay for.
>
>> In the end it all depends on businesses in your area, or at least along
>> a commuter train corridor or something. For example, on Long Island the
>> distance is not all that important but only as long as it's close to the
>> LIRR train tracks and stations.
>
> Back in the 1950's you could evidently get to Boston in a couple of
> hours by train from here, but not these days. I'm where MA, VT and NY
> intersect, with a foothold in both MA and VT.
>

Near Albany? That's way out in the boonies from a technology point of
view. But at least there's Interstate 87 that gets you straight into
NYC. Just like I sometimes have to bite the bullet and go to Silicon
Valley. A traffic-nightmare.

[Joerg]

Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Tue, 25 Sep 2012 10:05:49 -0700) it happened Joerg
> <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <ace6je...@mid.individual.net>:
>
>> Wow. Then the cost of living must be very high. From Germany I heard
>> very different stories, people working in jobs where they barely make
>> 1000 Euros/month.
>
> This may interest you:
> http://www.heise.de/jobs/meldung/Studie-IT-Freiberufler-verdienen-so-viel-wie-noch-nie-1703162.html
>

Hmm, strange, I've heard different stories. One must be careful with the
press. For example, numerous papers lament a so-called engineer shortage
in Germany but then in reality that's mostly a lie. Has to be when they
now want to reduce (!) the income threshold for a foreign labor visa.

> You need to work on your computah skills :-)
> Dollar is about 1.3 Euro I think now.

Sure, but a Euro does not go as far as $1.30 goes here. Not even close.
I was in Germany about a month ago.

[Phil Hobbs]

Wow, 3 square metres. That makes a Clark board look like a cellphone.
;)

I'm in awe. (Although I suspect the decimal points may be misplaced.)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

I'm a carpetbagger, not Southern. ;-) Japanese company. They like that
French stuff, too.

>>>> Number of Components 900 1131
>>>> Stuffing cost $230ea. $275ea.
>>>> SMT Stencils $450 $450
>>>> SMT Programming $250 $250
>>>>
>>>> We bought (or had donated ;) and kitted the components.
>>>>
>>> Those look like very reasonable numbers to me. Can you share the
>>> assembly house name?
>>
>> I'm not going to solder several hundred 0402s for those prices! ;-)
>>
>> We deal with "i-Tech e-Services" in Norcross, GA but the work is done by their
>> parent company, NCA (National Circuit Assemblies?), in Texas somewhere.
>>
>
>Thanks, it's bookmarked. In case others are interested:
>
>http://www.ncatx.com/custom/productandservice.html


>>> Just to avoid a muisunderstanding, my numbers were totals, not per board.
>>
>> Yes, that's why I put the "ea." designations on the stuffing cost line. Add a
>> zero to these lines for the ten boards, of each, we had built. I don't know
>> if these costs go down for higher quantities. ...
>
>
>They usually do, big time.
>
>
>> ... Of course, the stencils and programming doesn't vary by quantity.
>
>
>Yes, although sometimes they get thrown in for free if the order is
>large enough.

Just hidden somewhere else.

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 19:02:51 -0400, Phil Hobbs

The original Clark boards were about that big (15 LEMs/TCMs, IIRC).

>I'm in awe. (Although I suspect the decimal points may be misplaced.)

...or something. ;-) Don't know how I read the zero off the ruler, though. I
was doing about three things at a time, on two systems, at my desk, this
afternoon. Yes, 265x105mm and 265x165mm.

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

Without a lot of traffic, few people bitch about a business being run out of a
residence. Unless someone bitches, it's rare that the law comes knocking.

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

Why in the world would anyone want to do that? BTW, 87 is quite a way out of
the way from there. The Taconic State Parkway is much closer and no toll.
I90 goes to Boston which has a much higher tech content.

>Just like I sometimes have to bite the bullet and go to Silicon
>Valley.

Why in the world would anyone want to do that? ;-)


>A traffic-nightmare.

Atlanta traffic is pretty bad but the worst is mostly limited to rush hour and
on the other side.

[Ecnerwal]

George Herold <ghe...@teachspin.com> wrote:

> What city are you near Lawrence? We sometimes have ideas but not the
> time to flesh things out. (small quantities... )

Bennington, VT 20 minutes drive. Pittsfield, MA 30 minutes. Albany, NY
an hour or so.

[Spehro Pefhany]

Years ago, I saw a guy with a whole (automated) SMT assembly operation
in the basement of a suburban Toronto house.. getting the machines
past nosy neighbors might be challenging, plus the electric bill might
get you flagged as a possible grow-op, not to mention insurance would
likely be impossible. But as a way to get going, for risk-takers, it's
hard to beat unless you can get ahold of post-industrial space for
next to nothing. There are plenty of guys with big machine tools
(including big CNC machines) running from phase converters and even
molding machines in their garages... churn out the right kind of parts
for the right kind of customer and you can be financially independent
without doing anything very difficult, dangerous or otherwise
undesirable.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
sp...@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 14:01:28 -0700, the renowned Joerg
<inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>
>
>Sure, but a Euro does not go as far as $1.30 goes here. Not even close.
>I was in Germany about a month ago.

The US is looking downright cheap these days. It will be interesting
to see if it persists or if there is a bout of inflation and/or the
currency greatly increases in value. Possibly 10-15% on each would be
my guess.

[John Devereux]

Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid> writes:

> k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>> On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 10:40:49 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 24 Sep 2012 15:25:55 -0400, Phil Hobbs
>>>> <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 09/24/2012 12:24 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>>>>> Joerg wrote:
>>>>>>> Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 09/24/2012 10:54 AM, Joerg wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Hi, all,

[...]

But, what kind of board is so big? Did not think any P&P machines and
ovens would handle that. I have only seen relatively small ones.


[...]


--

John Devereux

[Joerg]

k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 13:57:22 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>

[...]

>> Just like I sometimes have to bite the bullet and go to Silicon
>> Valley.
>
> Why in the world would anyone want to do that? ;-)
>

Me. Doing it right now :-)

>
>> A traffic-nightmare.
>
> Atlanta traffic is pretty bad but the worst is mostly limited to rush hour and
> on the other side.

Yesterday I lucked out. I try to time my drive so I am just inside the
beginning of Sacramento rush hour but miss the one in Silicon Valley.
Once you are through Berkeley you are usually ok. Sort of.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.

[Joerg]

There are way too many laws as it is. In the old West enyone who felt
like it could hang out his shingle. If he was too noisy or incompetent
people would let him now quickly.

Now with all those often nonsensical zoning laws we have forced people
off the sidewalks (in fact, oftne there are none anymore) and into cars
to go to the "zone" where supermarkets and stores are allowed to be.
That has increased our dependency on foreign oil and has increased obesity.

[Joerg]

Spehro Pefhany wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 14:01:28 -0700, the renowned Joerg
> <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>>
>> Sure, but a Euro does not go as far as $1.30 goes here. Not even close.
>> I was in Germany about a month ago.
>
> The US is looking downright cheap these days. It will be interesting
> to see if it persists or if there is a bout of inflation and/or the
> currency greatly increases in value. Possibly 10-15% on each would be
> my guess.
>

The currency increasing? With QE3? I sure hope they stop that QE
nonsense soon. It isn't working and there are very obvious reasons why
it doesn't. Those need to be fixed, and can be.

[Joerg]

Keith seems to have missed the decimal points :-)

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Thu, 27 Sep 2012 07:06:03 -0700) it happened Joerg
<inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <acj4qe...@mid.individual.net>:

>There are way too many laws as it is. In the old West enyone who felt
>like it could hang out his shingle. If he was too noisy or incompetent
>people would let him now quickly.

I agree with that part.

>Now with all those often nonsensical zoning laws we have forced people
>off the sidewalks (in fact, oftne there are none anymore) and into cars
>to go to the "zone" where supermarkets and stores are allowed to be.
>That has increased our dependency on foreign oil and has increased obesity.

America?
Netherlands is cool, I lived across from a supermarket,
now one is around the corner, side walks and green everywhere...

Hey I once lived above a sherry bar. lived a across from some bars
several times, 2 a 5 minutes walk from here, and I am not even in the city.
In the city, like Amsterdam, a cafe on every corner almost.

Why did you go to the US?

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Thu, 27 Sep 2012 07:06:28 -0700) it happened Joerg
<inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <acj4r7...@mid.individual.net>:

With 0bama printing all that money, inflation WILL happen.
100$ for an egg, get ready.

I have offered to buy the US for 1$ years ago, they should have sold it to me.
Now it is not even worth 50 Eurocents with all that debt.

[Joerg]

Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Thu, 27 Sep 2012 07:06:03 -0700) it happened Joerg
> <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <acj4qe...@mid.individual.net>:
>
>> There are way too many laws as it is. In the old West enyone who felt
>> like it could hang out his shingle. If he was too noisy or incompetent
>> people would let him now quickly.
>
> I agree with that part.
>
>
>> Now with all those often nonsensical zoning laws we have forced people
>> off the sidewalks (in fact, oftne there are none anymore) and into cars
>> to go to the "zone" where supermarkets and stores are allowed to be.
>> That has increased our dependency on foreign oil and has increased obesity.
>
> America?
> Netherlands is cool, I lived across from a supermarket,
> now one is around the corner, side walks and green everywhere...
>

The Randstad area where most Dutch live does not strike me as very
green. It is an overly congested area where no ten horses would be able
to pull me into, at least not for living. Pretty much like Silicon
valley where I would also not want to live.

> Hey I once lived above a sherry bar. lived a across from some bars
> several times, 2 a 5 minutes walk from here, and I am not even in the city.
> In the city, like Amsterdam, a cafe on every corner almost.
>

In Zuid Limburg I lived above a pub in the middle of town. But the town
had only 5000 people which is a size I can accept. I would not want to
live in any large city. However, in America we should re-learn from the
"old world" that most zoning laws are stupid laws, that they are no good
for people or the environment. It would be so nice to have a bakery of
pub right here in the neighborhood.

> Why did you go to the US?

Because this is where the action is when it comes to electronics.

[Joerg]

Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Thu, 27 Sep 2012 07:06:28 -0700) it happened Joerg
> <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <acj4r7...@mid.individual.net>:
>
>> Spehro Pefhany wrote:
>>> On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 14:01:28 -0700, the renowned Joerg
>>> <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Sure, but a Euro does not go as far as $1.30 goes here. Not even close.
>>>> I was in Germany about a month ago.
>>> The US is looking downright cheap these days. It will be interesting
>>> to see if it persists or if there is a bout of inflation and/or the
>>> currency greatly increases in value. Possibly 10-15% on each would be
>>> my guess.
>>>
>> The currency increasing? With QE3? I sure hope they stop that QE
>> nonsense soon. It isn't working and there are very obvious reasons why
>> it doesn't. Those need to be fixed, and can be.
>
> With 0bama printing all that money, inflation WILL happen.

It is already happening. Health insurance premiums show double-digit
inflation and the cost of gasoline has roughly doubled. Guess why we are
hoping for a change in November :-)

> 100$ for an egg, get ready.
>

Won't be that bad but even if it was "only" 50% that could bring the
consumer market almost to a grinding halt. Nobody will spend disposable
savings anymore because there will hardly be any, they'll all clamp
down. This is one of the many reasons why QE needs to stop.

> I have offered to buy the US for 1$ years ago, they should have sold it to me.
> Now it is not even worth 50 Eurocents with all that debt.

Very wrong. We still have just about the best technology-generating
climate there is. Open your PC, smart phone, whatever, then you know
what I mean. I was in Silicon Valley yesterday, there is one high-tech
company after the other. For tens of miles on end. You don't have that
anywhere else in the world.

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Thu, 27 Sep 2012 07:21:55 -0700) it happened Joerg
<inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <acj5o7...@mid.individual.net>:

>> Why did you go to the US?
>
>
>Because this is where the action is when it comes to electronics.

??????????????????????
I was under the impression, surfing ebay, that that was China...
And on the more serious side, where I know a bit more,
media digital TV, transmission systems, you, in the US are still catching up.
There is also a reason Germany and the Netherlands export electronics to the US,
from radar to PLCs to consumer technology, CD was invented here, Hollywood just makes money on the
hardware we designed.
Now you are going to try to copy high speed rail...

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Thu, 27 Sep 2012 07:28:38 -0700) it happened Joerg
<inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <acj64q...@mid.individual.net>:

Venture capital...
I heard Tesla motors is making a loss, investors are leavin,
needs an otehr 150 million for their 'electric car',
Boeing is in deep trouble,
Aussies cancelled dreamliners, Boeing has to pay for breach of contract (could not deliver).
A380 has been flying a while.
Maybe 0bama makes you believe things are OK, but really,
you guys are in deep shit, and now want to take on China and Russia,
you lost all power in the UN, a nuclear first strike by thsoe is a real possibility now,
just keep pestering those countries.
I can see the lids of the silos open,
forget SALT that way, hey!

[Joerg]

Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Thu, 27 Sep 2012 07:28:38 -0700) it happened Joerg
> <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <acj64q...@mid.individual.net>:
>
>> Jan Panteltje wrote:

[...]

>>> I have offered to buy the US for 1$ years ago, they should have sold it to me.
>>> Now it is not even worth 50 Eurocents with all that debt.
>>
>> Very wrong. We still have just about the best technology-generating
>> climate there is. Open your PC, smart phone, whatever, then you know
>> what I mean. I was in Silicon Valley yesterday, there is one high-tech
>> company after the other. For tens of miles on end. You don't have that
>> anywhere else in the world.
>
> Venture capital...
> I heard Tesla motors is making a loss, investors are leavin,
> needs an otehr 150 million for their 'electric car',

So where is a similar Dutch manufacturer of electric cars? The only
passenger car manufacturer you ever had was DAF. Yes, they were
innovative, my mom had a DAF, but the company is long gone from the
passenger car market.

In America, people tend to stick their necks out into unknown
technological territory, they take risks. One of the many reasons why I
am here.

[...]

[Joerg]

Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Thu, 27 Sep 2012 07:21:55 -0700) it happened Joerg
> <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <acj5o7...@mid.individual.net>:
>
>>> Why did you go to the US?
>>
>> Because this is where the action is when it comes to electronics.
>
> ??????????????????????
> I was under the impression, surfing ebay, that that was China...

For 4-bit uC and stuff, yes :-)

> And on the more serious side, where I know a bit more,
> media digital TV, transmission systems, you, in the US are still catching up.
> There is also a reason Germany and the Netherlands export electronics to the US,
> from radar to PLCs to consumer technology, CD was invented here, Hollywood just makes money on the
> hardware we designed.

In your dreams. Name a DSP that can rival the ones from AD or TI.
Because that's what you are going to need for stuff like this. And where
is a Eurpean processor chip that can run powerful PCs, such as ADM or
Intel products? Because you'll also need those.

> Now you are going to try to copy high speed rail...

I hope it won't come. In case it has slipped your attention, AFAIK all
high-speed rail systems except for TGV and Shinkansen live on the
government dole. It can't survived without taxpayer money.

[John Devereux]

Yes, would love to see those come back from the fabricators...


--

John Devereux

[Joerg]

On a flatbed oversize trailer, with pilot vehicles, yellow light
flashing :-)

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Thu, 27 Sep 2012 07:57:07 -0700) it happened Joerg
<inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <acj7q7...@mid.individual.net>:

>Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> On a sunny day (Thu, 27 Sep 2012 07:21:55 -0700) it happened Joerg
>> <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <acj5o7...@mid.individual.net>:
>>
>>>> Why did you go to the US?
>>>
>>> Because this is where the action is when it comes to electronics.
>>
>> ??????????????????????
>> I was under the impression, surfing ebay, that that was China...
>
>
>For 4-bit uC and stuff, yes :-)

Well, I needed a blue tooth audio link, and plenty in China to chose from,
would be encryopted as everybody here already listens to my productions on FM ;-)

Then I was looking for some real solar panels, more than a thousand to chose from,
China too.
I mean when the nukes fall I need to power my short wave radio to see where
there is still life.

>
>> And on the more serious side, where I know a bit more,
>> media digital TV, transmission systems, you, in the US are still catching up.
>> There is also a reason Germany and the Netherlands export electronics to the US,
>> from radar to PLCs to consumer technology, CD was invented here, Hollywood just makes money on the
>> hardware we designed.
>
>
>In your dreams. Name a DSP that can rival the ones from AD or TI.
>Because that's what you are going to need for stuff like this. And where
>is a Eurpean processor chip that can run powerful PCs, such as ADM or
>Intel products? Because you'll also need those.

Strange, where was ARM developed?

>
>> Now you are going to try to copy high speed rail...
>
>
>I hope it won't come. In case it has slipped your attention, AFAIK all
>high-speed rail systems except for TGV and Shinkansen live on the
>government dole. It can't survived without taxpayer money.

TGV is indeed a nice thing, I have travelled on it.

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Thu, 27 Sep 2012 07:53:17 -0700) it happened Joerg
<inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <acj7j0...@mid.individual.net>:

>Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> On a sunny day (Thu, 27 Sep 2012 07:28:38 -0700) it happened Joerg
>> <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <acj64q...@mid.individual.net>:
>>
>>> Jan Panteltje wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>>>> I have offered to buy the US for 1$ years ago, they should have sold it to me.
>>>> Now it is not even worth 50 Eurocents with all that debt.
>>>
>>> Very wrong. We still have just about the best technology-generating
>>> climate there is. Open your PC, smart phone, whatever, then you know
>>> what I mean. I was in Silicon Valley yesterday, there is one high-tech
>>> company after the other. For tens of miles on end. You don't have that
>>> anywhere else in the world.
>>
>> Venture capital...
>> I heard Tesla motors is making a loss, investors are leavin,
>> needs an otehr 150 million for their 'electric car',
>
>
>So where is a similar Dutch manufacturer of electric cars?

We are not that daft.
really, everybody an electric car and even the Dutch power grid would fail.
And now with silly people closing nuclear power plants we may get blackouts.
The US grid cannot even handle a fraction of cars being electric.

>The only
>passenger car manufacturer you ever had was DAF. Yes, they were
>innovative, my mom had a DAF, but the company is long gone from the
>passenger car market.

Yes I remember those, continuous variable automatic transmission,
like an electric drill system.
One thing I have to give the US, automatic transmission is standard in cars,
while here a 'pookje' seems to be (but slowly changing).

>In America, people tend to stick their necks out into unknown
>technological territory, they take risks. One of the many reasons why I
>am here.

No, Americans are big fat blobs afraid to even go on the street or to the movies of fear of being shot.
Their grandpas who fought - and committed genocide to the injuns were a lot braver,

They are owerweight, afraid of soda drinks, dont know geography, major on baseball,
and lost the ability to find a good engineer to takle them to the moon 30 years ago.
ToysRus bought NASA, and now you kinds play with a remote controlled toy car on mars
looking for life, while life is clearly here on earth in Europe and China.
:-)

As to cars, if you are still reading this far, I did read some Japanse hydrogen car
will enter the EU soon, there is already a hydrogen tank stations in the Netherlands (Arnhem IIRC).
http://www.inquisitr.com/157439/toyota-to-sell-hydrogen-powered-car-in-europe-by-2015/

I dunno if H cars will make it, but seems more likely than Ecars, but how dangerous are those H cars?

Problem with US (versus for example China) is the silly 2 party system,
where one party destroys the other's work every 4 or 8 years.
That looks to the outside world like somebody who is drunk, politicaly speaking,
move left, swing right, swing right, move left ...
It does not induce faith and trust, so for a generation experiencing that,
such a generation will at least call the US unreliable, and at most a bunch of idiots or 'enemy'.
Will see where evolution takes it, history has a few good chapters on how the Roman empire ended.

[Joerg]

Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Thu, 27 Sep 2012 07:57:07 -0700) it happened Joerg
> <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <acj7q7...@mid.individual.net>:
>
>> Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>> On a sunny day (Thu, 27 Sep 2012 07:21:55 -0700) it happened Joerg
>>> <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <acj5o7...@mid.individual.net>:
>>>
>>>>> Why did you go to the US?
>>>> Because this is where the action is when it comes to electronics.
>>> ??????????????????????
>>> I was under the impression, surfing ebay, that that was China...
>>
>> For 4-bit uC and stuff, yes :-)
>
> Well, I needed a blue tooth audio link, and plenty in China to chose from,
> would be encryopted as everybody here already listens to my productions on FM ;-)
>

Bluetooth is hardly new technology anymore, is it?

> Then I was looking for some real solar panels, more than a thousand to chose from,
> China too.

Sure, using Western technology and cheap labor. As usual.

> I mean when the nukes fall I need to power my short wave radio to see where
> there is still life.
>

The wafting mushroom cloud might some day come from the south-east, and
not too far away from you.

>
>>> And on the more serious side, where I know a bit more,
>>> media digital TV, transmission systems, you, in the US are still catching up.
>>> There is also a reason Germany and the Netherlands export electronics to the US,
>>> from radar to PLCs to consumer technology, CD was invented here, Hollywood just makes money on the
>>> hardware we designed.
>>
>> In your dreams. Name a DSP that can rival the ones from AD or TI.
>> Because that's what you are going to need for stuff like this. And where
>> is a Eurpean processor chip that can run powerful PCs, such as ADM or
>> Intel products? Because you'll also need those.
>
> Strange, where was ARM developed?
>

ARM is more of a (good) workhorse uC core. What I meant is real cutting
edge stuff. You will not be able to build a top-of-the-line beamformer
and things like that around ARM. That gets built around chips from AD,
TI, Intel, AMD, Freescale and so on.

>
>>> Now you are going to try to copy high speed rail...
>>
>> I hope it won't come. In case it has slipped your attention, AFAIK all
>> high-speed rail systems except for TGV and Shinkansen live on the
>> government dole. It can't survived without taxpayer money.
>
> TGV is indeed a nice thing, I have travelled on it.

What many people do not known and lftist media tend to not report is
that in America we have the Acela bullet train. It goes 150mph or 240km/h.

[Joerg]

Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Thu, 27 Sep 2012 07:53:17 -0700) it happened Joerg
> <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <acj7j0...@mid.individual.net>:
>
>> Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>> On a sunny day (Thu, 27 Sep 2012 07:28:38 -0700) it happened Joerg
>>> <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <acj64q...@mid.individual.net>:
>>>
>>>> Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> [...]
>>
>>>>> I have offered to buy the US for 1$ years ago, they should have sold it to me.
>>>>> Now it is not even worth 50 Eurocents with all that debt.
>>>> Very wrong. We still have just about the best technology-generating
>>>> climate there is. Open your PC, smart phone, whatever, then you know
>>>> what I mean. I was in Silicon Valley yesterday, there is one high-tech
>>>> company after the other. For tens of miles on end. You don't have that
>>>> anywhere else in the world.
>>> Venture capital...
>>> I heard Tesla motors is making a loss, investors are leavin,
>>> needs an otehr 150 million for their 'electric car',
>>
>> So where is a similar Dutch manufacturer of electric cars?
>
>
> We are not that daft.
> really, everybody an electric car and even the Dutch power grid would fail.
> And now with silly people closing nuclear power plants we may get blackouts.
> The US grid cannot even handle a fraction of cars being electric.
>

Right, which is why we don't shut down our nuclear plants.

But criticizing everything from your comfy chair is easy. Tell us, what
is your alternative? Keep on driving gasoline or Diesel cars until the
price of fuel gets so high that only rich people can drive?

>
>> The only
>> passenger car manufacturer you ever had was DAF. Yes, they were
>> innovative, my mom had a DAF, but the company is long gone from the
>> passenger car market.
>
> Yes I remember those, continuous variable automatic transmission,
> like an electric drill system.

The downside is that their appetite for gasoline was voracious. Easily
20-30% higher than comparable stick shift cars.

> One thing I have to give the US, automatic transmission is standard in cars,
> while here a 'pookje' seems to be (but slowly changing).
>

Stick shift is more economical on gas. The difference shrinks but it's
still significant.

>
>> In America, people tend to stick their necks out into unknown
>> technological territory, they take risks. One of the many reasons why I
>> am here.
>
> No, Americans are big fat blobs afraid to even go on the street or to the movies of fear of being shot.
> Their grandpas who fought - and committed genocide to the injuns were a lot braver,
>
> They are owerweight, afraid of soda drinks, dont know geography, major on baseball,
> and lost the ability to find a good engineer to takle them to the moon 30 years ago.

So where is the European space shuttle? Where is the European Mars
verhicle? Where is the European Voyager craft?

> ToysRus bought NASA, and now you kinds play with a remote controlled toy car on mars
> looking for life, while life is clearly here on earth in Europe and China.
> :-)
>

Maybe because ESA can't get anything up to Mars?

> As to cars, if you are still reading this far, I did read some Japanse hydrogen car
> will enter the EU soon, there is already a hydrogen tank stations in the Netherlands (Arnhem IIRC).
> http://www.inquisitr.com/157439/toyota-to-sell-hydrogen-powered-car-in-europe-by-2015/
>
> I dunno if H cars will make it, but seems more likely than Ecars, but how dangerous are those H cars?
>

And how would you plan to produce all that hydrogen?

> Problem with US (versus for example China) is the silly 2 party system,
> where one party destroys the other's work every 4 or 8 years.
> That looks to the outside world like somebody who is drunk, politicaly speaking,
> move left, swing right, swing right, move left ...
> It does not induce faith and trust, so for a generation experiencing that,
> such a generation will at least call the US unreliable, and at most a bunch of idiots or 'enemy'.
> Will see where evolution takes it, history has a few good chapters on how the Roman empire ended.

Ah, yes, but of course a one-party system with a polit-bureau and
immediate crushing of any other party's efforts to gain a foothold is no
much better. Yeah, right. People out here see that very differently and
I am glad they do.

[Bill Sloman]

On Sep 27, 4:28 pm, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Jan Panteltje wrote:
> > On a sunny day (Thu, 27 Sep 2012 07:06:28 -0700) it happened Joerg

> > <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <acj4r7F7lh...@mid.individual.net>:

>
> >> Spehro Pefhany wrote:
> >>> On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 14:01:28 -0700, the renowned Joerg
> >>> <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
> >>>> Sure, but a Euro does not go as far as $1.30 goes here. Not even close.
> >>>> I was in Germany about a month ago.
> >>> The US is looking downright cheap these days. It will be interesting
> >>> to see if it persists or if there is a bout of inflation and/or the
> >>> currency greatly increases in value. Possibly 10-15% on each would be
> >>> my guess.
>
> >> The currency increasing? With QE3? I sure hope they stop that QE
> >> nonsense soon. It isn't working and there are very obvious reasons why
> >> it doesn't. Those need to be fixed, and can be.
>
> > With 0bama printing all that money, inflation WILL happen.
>
> It is already happening. Health insurance premiums show double-digit
> inflation and the cost of gasoline has roughly doubled. Guess why we are
> hoping for a change in November :-)

Electing Mitt Romney will reveal previously undetected oil deposits?
The Republicans have spent the past four years making sure that Obama
won't win the next election by fixing the US economy, and they really
deserve to be rewarded for their single-minded persistence and
willingness to live with the consequent damage to their own
prosperity.

Everybody ought to vote for such a selfless group.

Sadly, the polls suggest that the Republicans can't fool enough of the
people enough of the time.

> Won't be that bad but even if it was "only" 50% that could bring the
> consumer market almost to a grinding halt. Nobody will spend disposable
> savings anymore because there will hardly be any, they'll all clamp
> down. This is one of the many reasons why QE needs to stop.

Sure. Too much of the QE money goes to people who can add it to their
disposable savings, when it ought to go to people who can be relied on
to spend it and thus stimulate the economy.

> > I have offered to buy the US for 1$ years ago, they should have sold it to me.
> > Now it is not even worth 50 Eurocents with all that debt.
>
> Very wrong. We still have just about the best technology-generating
> climate there is. Open your PC, smart phone, whatever, then you know
> what I mean. I was in Silicon Valley yesterday, there is one high-tech
> company after the other. For tens of miles on end. You don't have that
> anywhere else in the world.

Except perhaps in Silicon Glen in Scotland, and Silicon Fen around
Cambridge England and in the high-tech business park north of
Eindhoven, to list the one's I've been exposed to. For some years now
Singapore has been busy trying to build the same kind of self-feeding
high-tech environment, where if you need something odd you can always
find somebody who specialises in supplying it.

People learned the lesson of Route 128 a long time ago, and have been
trying to grow critical masses ever since, with some success.

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

[Joerg]

Bill Sloman wrote:
> On Sep 27, 4:28 pm, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>> On a sunny day (Thu, 27 Sep 2012 07:06:28 -0700) it happened Joerg
>>> <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <acj4r7F7lh...@mid.individual.net>:
>>>> Spehro Pefhany wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 14:01:28 -0700, the renowned Joerg
>>>>> <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>> Sure, but a Euro does not go as far as $1.30 goes here. Not even close.
>>>>>> I was in Germany about a month ago.
>>>>> The US is looking downright cheap these days. It will be interesting
>>>>> to see if it persists or if there is a bout of inflation and/or the
>>>>> currency greatly increases in value. Possibly 10-15% on each would be
>>>>> my guess.
>>>> The currency increasing? With QE3? I sure hope they stop that QE
>>>> nonsense soon. It isn't working and there are very obvious reasons why
>>>> it doesn't. Those need to be fixed, and can be.
>>> With 0bama printing all that money, inflation WILL happen.
>> It is already happening. Health insurance premiums show double-digit
>> inflation and the cost of gasoline has roughly doubled. Guess why we are
>> hoping for a change in November :-)
>
> Electing Mitt Romney will reveal previously undetected oil deposits?

No, but we can then finally tap into reserves that will otherwise be
siphoned off by others. Such as in Alaska.

> The Republicans have spent the past four years making sure that Obama

> won't win the next election by fixing the US economy, ...


Wot nonsense.


> ... and they really

> deserve to be rewarded for their single-minded persistence and
> willingness to live with the consequent damage to their own
> prosperity.
>
> Everybody ought to vote for such a selfless group.
>
> Sadly, the polls suggest that the Republicans can't fool enough of the
> people enough of the time.
>

Wait until November, then you know :-)

>> Won't be that bad but even if it was "only" 50% that could bring the
>> consumer market almost to a grinding halt. Nobody will spend disposable
>> savings anymore because there will hardly be any, they'll all clamp
>> down. This is one of the many reasons why QE needs to stop.
>
> Sure. Too much of the QE money goes to people who can add it to their
> disposable savings, when it ought to go to people who can be relied on
> to spend it and thus stimulate the economy.
>

Problem is, the money does not go anywhere and smart people knew it
wouldn't. The stock traders also knew because they usually belong to the
group of smart people.

All it can potentially do is cause inflation and a sequel of the
real-estate bubble.

>>> I have offered to buy the US for 1$ years ago, they should have sold it to me.
>>> Now it is not even worth 50 Eurocents with all that debt.
>> Very wrong. We still have just about the best technology-generating
>> climate there is. Open your PC, smart phone, whatever, then you know
>> what I mean. I was in Silicon Valley yesterday, there is one high-tech
>> company after the other. For tens of miles on end. You don't have that
>> anywhere else in the world.
>
> Except perhaps in Silicon Glen in Scotland, and Silicon Fen around
> Cambridge England and in the high-tech business park north of
> Eindhoven, to list the one's I've been exposed to. For some years now
> Singapore has been busy trying to build the same kind of self-feeding
> high-tech environment, where if you need something odd you can always
> find somebody who specialises in supplying it.
>

Here is a dose of reality for you:

http://www.scotsman.com/news/scottish-news/top-stories/sale-ends-the-silicon-glen-dream-1-679002

Those dreams are over, done, finito. Despite massive taxpayer subsidies
no significant chip manufacturers came out of this effort. Or can you
name just a single one? I guess not. Contrast this to Calfifornia where
myriad successful chip companies started without one red cent from the
taxpayer dole. As it should be, and that's the American way.

> People learned the lesson of Route 128 a long time ago, and have been
> trying to grow critical masses ever since, with some success.
>

Where?

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Thu, 27 Sep 2012 09:16:37 -0700) it happened Joerg
<inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <acjcf9...@mid.individual.net>:

>>> In your dreams. Name a DSP that can rival the ones from AD or TI.
>>> Because that's what you are going to need for stuff like this. And where
>>> is a Eurpean processor chip that can run powerful PCs, such as ADM or
>>> Intel products? Because you'll also need those.
>>
>> Strange, where was ARM developed?
>>
>
>ARM is more of a (good) workhorse uC core. What I meant is real cutting
>edge stuff. You will not be able to build a top-of-the-line beamformer
>and things like that around ARM. That gets built around chips from AD,
>TI, Intel, AMD, Freescale and so on.

You seem a bit ignorant on computahs :-)

[Joerg]

Name a high-end computer with an ARM in there.

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Thu, 27 Sep 2012 12:09:29 -0700) it happened Joerg
<inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <acjmjc...@mid.individual.net>:

My HTC Android.

Perhaps you will argue that tha tis not 'high end'.
there are ARM based servers now:
You, being a Dell customer from some of your postings here:
http://www.bit-tech.net/news/hardware/2012/05/31/dell-arm-servers/1

Also you need to see a bit further, ARM has many special instructions these days
for for example multimedia and that can be used for mathematical processing.
ARM cores can be part of DPS or FPGA doing a lot in hardware,
while in the x86 Intel or AMD you would need extra chips,
not many pentium cores impemented in FPGA I think.

It is exactly in specialized computing where the ARM core counts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture

[Joerg]

Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Thu, 27 Sep 2012 12:09:29 -0700) it happened Joerg
> <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <acjmjc...@mid.individual.net>:
>
>> Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>> On a sunny day (Thu, 27 Sep 2012 09:16:37 -0700) it happened Joerg
>>> <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <acjcf9...@mid.individual.net>:
>>>
>>>>>> In your dreams. Name a DSP that can rival the ones from AD or TI.
>>>>>> Because that's what you are going to need for stuff like this. And where
>>>>>> is a Eurpean processor chip that can run powerful PCs, such as ADM or
>>>>>> Intel products? Because you'll also need those.
>>>>> Strange, where was ARM developed?
>>>>>
>>>> ARM is more of a (good) workhorse uC core. What I meant is real cutting
>>>> edge stuff. You will not be able to build a top-of-the-line beamformer
>>>> and things like that around ARM. That gets built around chips from AD,
>>>> TI, Intel, AMD, Freescale and so on.
>>> You seem a bit ignorant on computahs :-)
>>>
>> Name a high-end computer with an ARM in there.
>
> My HTC Android.
>

*ROFL*

> Perhaps you will argue that tha tis not 'high end'.
> there are ARM based servers now:
> You, being a Dell customer from some of your postings here:
> http://www.bit-tech.net/news/hardware/2012/05/31/dell-arm-servers/1
>

And who make the chips? Quote "packed with up to 48 Marvell Armada
system-on-chip processors based on ARMv7 with a 64-bit memory interface
but a 32-bit local bus"

Correct, Marvell, a company right here. Without these guys none of this
stuff would happen. Naturally they will not re-invent the wheel and
license cores and other IP blocks whenever it saves time-to-market and
the deal is financially palatable.

> Also you need to see a bit further, ARM has many special instructions these days
> for for example multimedia and that can be used for mathematical processing.
> ARM cores can be part of DPS or FPGA doing a lot in hardware,
> while in the x86 Intel or AMD you would need extra chips,
> not many pentium cores impemented in FPGA I think.
>

Real workhorse computers aren't implemented in FPGA.

> It is exactly in specialized computing where the ARM core counts.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture

But not for heavy-lifting jobs such as realtime signal processing or
ultrasound or Radar images and things like that. Maybe some day, but not
right now.

Just like everybody and their brother uses FTDI chips for USB
interfacing, which is a Scottisch company. It is not high-end stuff but
important in the grand scheme of things, got to have USB and it doesn't
make sense to roll your own when it's already there.

[Bill Sloman]

On Sep 27, 8:52 pm, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> BillSlomanwrote:

It is a partisan point of view, but the Republican majority has been
less than cooperative over the past few years.

> >                                             ... and they really
> > deserve to be rewarded for their single-minded persistence and
> > willingness to live with the consequent damage to their own
> > prosperity.
>
> > Everybody ought to vote for such a selfless group.
>
> > Sadly, the polls suggest that the Republicans can't fool enough of the
> > people enough of the time.
>
> Wait until November, then you know :-)
>
> >> Won't be that bad but even if it was "only" 50% that could bring the
> >> consumer market almost to a grinding halt. Nobody will spend disposable
> >> savings anymore because there will hardly be any, they'll all clamp
> >> down. This is one of the many reasons why QE needs to stop.
>
> > Sure. Too much of the QE money goes to people who can add it to their
> > disposable savings, when it ought to go to people who can be relied on
> > to spend it and thus stimulate the economy.
>
> Problem is, the money does not go anywhere and smart people knew it
> wouldn't. The stock traders also knew because they usually belong to the
> group of smart people.

The question is then why wasn't some of the money directed at people
who would spend it and do some good for the economy, and the answer is
that they aren't Republican voters or supporters.

> All it can potentially do is cause inflation and a sequel of the
> real-estate bubble.

That's James Arthur's view of the situation, not John Maynard Keynes.
James Arthur is brain-dead on this subject, while Keynes is merely
dead, which doesn't stop him from being right.

>
> >>> I have offered to buy the US for 1$ years ago, they should have sold it to me.
> >>> Now it is not even worth 50 Eurocents with all that debt.
> >> Very wrong. We still have just about the best technology-generating
> >> climate there is. Open your PC, smart phone, whatever, then you know
> >> what I mean. I was in Silicon Valley yesterday, there is one high-tech
> >> company after the other. For tens of miles on end. You don't have that
> >> anywhere else in the world.
>
> > Except perhaps in Silicon Glen in Scotland, and Silicon Fen around
> > Cambridge England and in the high-tech business park north of
> > Eindhoven, to list the one's I've been exposed to. For some years now
> > Singapore has been busy trying to build the same kind of self-feeding
> > high-tech environment, where if you need something odd you can always
> > find somebody who specialises in supplying it.
>
> Here is a dose of reality for you:
>

> http://www.scotsman.com/news/scottish-news/top-stories/sale-ends-the-...

>
> Those dreams are over, done, finito.

That particular dream is over. Cadence is still there, but that
particular business park has despaired of getting any more high-tech
tenants.

It's not the only high-tech activity in the area, and the newspaper
report has rather exaggerated the significance of a single commercial
decision. The current U.K. conservative government has emphasised
"fiscal responsiblity" over economic growth since they came to power
"After three straight quarters of contraction, GDP is no higher than
when the coalition came to power 2 1/2 years ago." and U.K. newspapers
are happy to remind their readers what their government isn't doing
for them.

> Despite massive taxpayer subsidies
> no significant chip manufacturers came out of this effort.

Has National Semiconductor's plant at Greenock been closed down
recently?

And is chip manufacture the only possible high-tech activity? As fabs
get progressively more expensive, we can expect to see fewer of them,
and more countries are going have to settle for importing all their
integrate circuits from Tiawan, Korea, China, Japan and the US.

> Or can you name just a single one? I guess not.

Bad guess.

> Contrast this to California where

> myriad successful chip companies started without one red cent from the
> taxpayer dole. As it should be, and that's the American way.

California is pretty much where the whole thing started. Though TI did
make the first IC, Fairchild, with the planar process was rather
better placed to make something that worked. The first semiconductor
fabs made a lot of money by selling stuff that couldn't be made any
other way.

They might not have been directly subsidised, but the US Defence
Department was deeply interested in their output, and everything they
made was available in Mil. Spec. versions which worked over a
temperature range from 125C to -55C.

> > People learned the lesson of Route 128 a long time ago, and have been
> > trying to grow critical masses ever since, with some success.
>
> Where?

I listed a few of them in my original post. Silicon Valley probably
precedes Route 128 - " Frederick Terman proposed the leasing of
Stanford's lands for use as an office park, named the Stanford
Industrial Park (later Stanford Research Park)" but Route 128 got more
publicity as a high-tech area, where Silicon Valley was seen as
concentrated on semi-conductors, though since it included HP and
Varian this was probably a misperception.

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

[Charlie E.]

On Thu, 27 Sep 2012 07:06:28 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

It is the government's way to punish anyone presumptious enough to
actually have savings. By keeping interest rates for consumers to
negative numbers, they are hoping we will go out and spend all our
savings and start borrowing just to live...

[Bill Sloman]

On Sep 28, 1:14 am, Charlie E. <edmond...@ieee.org> wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Sep 2012 07:06:28 -0700, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid>

That's not punishment, just encouraging everybody to do their bit for
the economy now, rather than putting off consumption until they are
old and feeble and the economy no longer needs stimulation.

Looking at the worst case situation, if you don't spend your savings
now, the US economy may go completely belly-up - banks and all - and
your savings will have evaporated without you having had any benefit
from them at all.

In any event there's not a lot of point in saving when you've got
Republicans in power. They manipulate the economy to transfer money
from those that have any money to those that have a lot, and even more
money from the well-off to to the obscenely rich.

If you are obscenely rich you don't save any more, but invest.

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

[Joerg]

Bill Sloman wrote:
> On Sep 27, 8:52 pm, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> BillSlomanwrote:
>>> On Sep 27, 4:28 pm, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>> Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>>> On a sunny day (Thu, 27 Sep 2012 07:06:28 -0700) it happened Joerg
>>>>> <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <acj4r7F7lh...@mid.individual.net>:
>>>>>> Spehro Pefhany wrote:




>> All it can potentially do is cause inflation and a sequel of the
>> real-estate bubble.
>
> That's James Arthur's view of the situation, not John Maynard Keynes.
> James Arthur is brain-dead on this subject, while Keynes is merely
> dead, which doesn't stop him from being right.

There are people who believe that Keynes didn't have much of a clue.

Production facilities are built anywhere there are big enough subsidies
to be reaped. Production != High Tech.

> And is chip manufacture the only possible high-tech activity? As fabs
> get progressively more expensive, we can expect to see fewer of them,
> and more countries are going have to settle for importing all their
> integrate circuits from Tiawan, Korea, China, Japan and the US.
>

So what else is there in terms of cutting-edge?

>> Or can you name just a single one? I guess not.
>
> Bad guess.
>

So? Names?

>> Contrast this to California where
>> myriad successful chip companies started without one red cent from the
>> taxpayer dole. As it should be, and that's the American way.
>
> California is pretty much where the whole thing started. Though TI did
> make the first IC, Fairchild, with the planar process was rather
> better placed to make something that worked. The first semiconductor
> fabs made a lot of money by selling stuff that couldn't be made any
> other way.
>
> They might not have been directly subsidised, but the US Defence
> Department was deeply interested in their output, and everything they
> made was available in Mil. Spec. versions which worked over a
> temperature range from 125C to -55C.
>

It's simply one of the customers. And only for some companies. Also,
that customer also does pinch pennies.

>>> People learned the lesson of Route 128 a long time ago, and have been
>>> trying to grow critical masses ever since, with some success.
>> Where?
>

> I listed a few of them in my original post. ...


In the ones today I didn't see any, and you didn't post before in this
thread unless my news server has swallowed it.


> ... Silicon Valley probably

> precedes Route 128 - " Frederick Terman proposed the leasing of
> Stanford's lands for use as an office park, named the Stanford
> Industrial Park (later Stanford Research Park)" but Route 128 got more
> publicity as a high-tech area, where Silicon Valley was seen as
> concentrated on semi-conductors, though since it included HP and
> Varian this was probably a misperception.
>

Publicity means nothing, results and revenue Dollars do.

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

Nope, not even the whole batch. ;-)

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

On Thu, 27 Sep 2012 07:06:03 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:

>> On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 13:36:51 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
>>>> On 25 Sep., 20:05, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>>> I know one guy who runs his ME business out of his garage. It is so full
>>>>> of big machines and tools that, depending on which job he works on, he
>>>>> has to watch the weather forecast, then move a bunch of machines outside
>>>>> and rearrange stuff.
>>>>>
>>>> must be lucky to not get in trouble with the neighbors and regulations
>>>> about
>>>> running a business in a residential area
>>>>
>>> He's probably not making too much noise I guess.
>>
>> Without a lot of traffic, few people bitch about a business being run out of a
>> residence. Unless someone bitches, it's rare that the law comes knocking.

>
>
>There are way too many laws as it is.

True, but there are good reasons for zoning laws. I'd rather not have a strip
mall (or joint) build next to my house.

>In the old West enyone who felt
>like it could hang out his shingle. If he was too noisy or incompetent
>people would let him now quickly.

An armed society is a polite society? ;-)

>Now with all those often nonsensical zoning laws we have forced people
>off the sidewalks (in fact, oftne there are none anymore) and into cars
>to go to the "zone" where supermarkets and stores are allowed to be.
>That has increased our dependency on foreign oil and has increased obesity.

You sound like a lefty, now.

[Joerg]

k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Sep 2012 07:06:03 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>>> On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 13:36:51 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
>>>>> On 25 Sep., 20:05, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>>>> I know one guy who runs his ME business out of his garage. It is so full
>>>>>> of big machines and tools that, depending on which job he works on, he
>>>>>> has to watch the weather forecast, then move a bunch of machines outside
>>>>>> and rearrange stuff.
>>>>>>
>>>>> must be lucky to not get in trouble with the neighbors and regulations
>>>>> about
>>>>> running a business in a residential area
>>>>>
>>>> He's probably not making too much noise I guess.
>>> Without a lot of traffic, few people bitch about a business being run out of a
>>> residence. Unless someone bitches, it's rare that the law comes knocking.
>>
>> There are way too many laws as it is.
>
> True, but there are good reasons for zoning laws. I'd rather not have a strip
> mall (or joint) build next to my house.
>

Some zoning legislation is ok. For example, in Europe they typically
have requirements that things blend in nicely, that there is no undue
noise, smells, smoke or lots of traffic at night. I've lived at a place
in the Netherlands where there was a pub on the ground floor of the
building, an auto repair shop across the street, a grocer directly
across, a bank next door, the post office diagonally across. Oh, and the
bus turned around right there because it was the last stop. I enjoyed
living there.

>> In the old West enyone who felt
>> like it could hang out his shingle. If he was too noisy or incompetent
>> people would let him now quickly.
>
> An armed society is a polite society? ;-)
>

People become very politely when they don't know who carries :-)

>> Now with all those often nonsensical zoning laws we have forced people
>> off the sidewalks (in fact, oftne there are none anymore) and into cars
>> to go to the "zone" where supermarkets and stores are allowed to be.
>> That has increased our dependency on foreign oil and has increased obesity.
>
> You sound like a lefty, now.

Nope, I know. Because I've lived in two continents where that is handled
very differently. Most stuff is IMHO simply better in America but zoning
is most certainly not. It's not just gasoline and obesity, zoning laws
are also the reason for many DUI incidents. Because people have no other
way to get to the pub than by car. Heck, you can't even safely get there
by bicycle from here.

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

That's fine, if you want to live there. OTOH, what's so wrong with
communities deciding how they want to live? If they don't want bars and strip
joints in residential communities, what's the problem? BTW, AIUI, Houston
doesn't have any zoning laws. Apparently they're still the wild West. ;-)

>>> In the old West enyone who felt
>>> like it could hang out his shingle. If he was too noisy or incompetent
>>> people would let him now quickly.
>>
>> An armed society is a polite society? ;-)
>>
>
>People become very politely when they don't know who carries :-)

Bought a pocket pistol at the gun show last weekend. ;-)

>>> Now with all those often nonsensical zoning laws we have forced people
>>> off the sidewalks (in fact, oftne there are none anymore) and into cars
>>> to go to the "zone" where supermarkets and stores are allowed to be.
>>> That has increased our dependency on foreign oil and has increased obesity.
>>
>> You sound like a lefty, now.
>
>
>Nope, I know. Because I've lived in two continents where that is handled
>very differently. Most stuff is IMHO simply better in America but zoning
>is most certainly not. It's not just gasoline and obesity, zoning laws
>are also the reason for many DUI incidents. Because people have no other
>way to get to the pub than by car. Heck, you can't even safely get there
>by bicycle from here.

No, there are too many DUIs because people refuse to take responsibility for
their actions. Obesity is a "problem" because food is cheap and exercise is
nonexistant.

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Thu, 27 Sep 2012 07:06:28 -0700, the renowned Joerg
<inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>Spehro Pefhany wrote:
>> On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 14:01:28 -0700, the renowned Joerg
>> <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Sure, but a Euro does not go as far as $1.30 goes here. Not even close.
>>> I was in Germany about a month ago.
>>
>> The US is looking downright cheap these days. It will be interesting
>> to see if it persists or if there is a bout of inflation and/or the
>> currency greatly increases in value. Possibly 10-15% on each would be
>> my guess.
>>
>
>The currency increasing? With QE3? I sure hope they stop that QE
>nonsense soon. It isn't working and there are very obvious reasons why
>it doesn't. Those need to be fixed, and can be.

Interest rates are artificially low now, because of QE (the Fed is
buying debt to keep the rates close to zero). If they start to rise,
then the currency may well go up. That doesn't mean there won't be
inflation too, of course.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
sp...@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

[Tom Del Rosso]

What about your's? 2.25 square inches with 50 parts?

And 1k dollars for 50 of those little things unstuffed?


--

Reply in group, but if emailing add one more
zero, and remove the last word.

[josephkk]

On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 00:10:17 GMT, ni...@puntnl.niks (Nico Coesel) wrote:

>"lang...@fonz.dk" <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote:
>
>>On 24 Sep., 22:30, n...@puntnl.niks (Nico Coesel) wrote:
>>> Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> >Nico Coesel wrote:

>>> >> Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>> >>> Phil Hobbs wrote:

>>> >>>> On 09/24/2012 11:39 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>> >>>>> On a sunny day (Mon, 24 Sep 2012 10:44:43 -0400) it happened Phil H=
>>obbs
>>> >>>>> <pcdhSpamMeSensel...@electrooptical.net> =A0wrote in
>>> >>>>> <tM6dneXs29lG7P3NnZ2dnUVZ_tudn...@supernews.com>:
>>>
>>> >>>>>> Hi, all,
>>>
>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-ATTEN-AT-858D-858D-SMD-Hot-Air-Gun-Rework...
>>>
>>> >In fact, I am doing something like that right now. Why? Because there
>>> >are no local techs so I'll have to solder it myself. You can do amazing
>>> >things with a Weller ETS tip :-)
>>>
>>> If you mean 'interesting ways to toss them in the bin' then you are
>>> right. I went through lots of these at a former employer until I got a
>>> proper Ersa soldering station. These tips are too small to transfer
>>> heat properly so you keep cranking the temperature up which burns the
>>> flux before it can do something. Get a bigger tip and a flux pen to
>>> make your life much easier.
>>>
>>
>>
>>tried how well something like this works?
>>
>>http://www.beta-estore.com/rkuk/order_product_details.html?p=3D13
>>http://www.beta-estore.com/rkuk/order_product_details.html?p=3D242
>
>These links don't work...

I get a page, but it is worthless. Says no such product.
It seems you are about as anal with the browser controls & add-ons as i
am.

?-)

[josephkk]

On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 08:11:16 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On a sunny day (Tue, 25 Sep 2012 00:10:17 GMT) it happened ni...@puntnl.niks
>(Nico Coesel) wrote in <5060f654....@news.kpn.nl>:

>ried how well something like this works?
>>>

>>>http://www.beta-estore.com/rkuk/order_product_details.html?p=13
>>>http://www.beta-estore.com/rkuk/order_product_details.html?p=242

>>
>>These links don't work...
>

>They work here, the controller could be a DIY,
>good price IMNSHO.

It amounts to a large toaster-oven with an added controller and sensors.

?-)