Is the Raspberry Pi real at that price?

[Don McKenzie]

Is the Raspberry Pi real at that price?

http://www.raspberrypi.org/
http://twitter.com/#!/raspberry_pi

I can't help but think when you sell 10K pieces of an item at bargain basement prices, (and in a single day), and in
advance of having the products, that there may be something very wrong.

They have entered into licensed manufacture partnerships with two British companies, Premier Farnell and RS Components.
That means there has to be a dealer margin. If you can retail it at $25, then how much did it cost wholesale?

I may be barking up the wrong tree, but am I one of the few sensing something may be very wrong with this deal?

Have a look at what Tsvetan from Olimex said in a forum thread about it here:
http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4748&PN=1

Anyone have insider information that what I am saying is completely off the mark?
Comments?

Of course, If I am off the mark, this will be more free advertising for them. :-)


Cheers Don...

========================


--
Don McKenzie

Dontronics: http://www.dontronics-shop.com/

DuinoMite the PIC32 $35 Basic Computer-MicroController
http://www.dontronics-shop.com/the-maximite-computer.html
Just add a VGA monitor or TV, and PS2 Keyboard.
Arduino Shield, Programmed in Basic, or C.

[petrus bitbyter]

"Don McKenzie" <5...@2.5A> schreef in bericht
news:9rcli3...@mid.individual.net...

The current version is $35,-. The $25,- version has been announced however.

petrus bitbyter

[TTman]

"Don McKenzie" <5...@2.5A> wrote in message
news:9rcli3...@mid.individual.net...

>
> Is the Raspberry Pi real at that price?
>
> http://www.raspberrypi.org/
> http://twitter.com/#!/raspberry_pi
>
> I can't help but think when you sell 10K pieces of an item at bargain
> basement prices, (and in a single day), and in advance of having the
> products, that there may be something very wrong.
>
> They have entered into licensed manufacture partnerships with two British
> companies, Premier Farnell and RS Components.
> That means there has to be a dealer margin. If you can retail it at $25,
> then how much did it cost wholesale?
>
> I may be barking up the wrong tree, but am I one of the few sensing
> something may be very wrong with this deal?
>
> Have a look at what Tsvetan from Olimex said in a forum thread about it
> here:
> http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4748&PN=1
>
> Anyone have insider information that what I am saying is completely off
> the mark?
> Comments?
>
> Of course, If I am off the mark, this will be more free advertising for
> them. :-)
>
>
> Cheers Don...
>
> ========================
>
>

I see it as a cunning plan to wipe out M/soft and all those ancient PCs...

[Don Y]

Hi Don,

On 3/2/2012 12:32 PM, Don McKenzie wrote:

> I can't help but think when you sell 10K pieces of an item at bargain
> basement prices, (and in a single day), and in advance of having the
> products, that there may be something very wrong.
>
> They have entered into licensed manufacture partnerships with two
> British companies, Premier Farnell and RS Components.
> That means there has to be a dealer margin. If you can retail it at $25,
> then how much did it cost wholesale?
>
> I may be barking up the wrong tree, but am I one of the few sensing
> something may be very wrong with this deal?

"I sell everything at a loss but make up for it in volume"
-- Milo Minderbinder

[petrus bitbyter]

"TTman" <pcw1...@ntlworld.com> schreef in bericht
news:jir96q$355$1...@dont-email.me...

It certainly attacks some monopolistic behavior of both processor en
software giants. As it will not do Windows, it may even become a nail in the
MS-coffin. But the design is too light for serious processing power. I
merely expect it to become a component more or less like the microprocessor
started.

petrus bitbyter

[Joel Koltner]

petrus bitbyter wrote:
> It certainly attacks some monopolistic behavior of both processor en
> software giants. As it will not do Windows, it may even become a nail in the
> MS-coffin.

I kinda doubt it -- Microsoft Windows 8 will run on ARM. Maybe not the
particular one on the Raspberry Pi, but certainly on plenty of other
inexpensive, similar chips.

> But the design is too light for serious processing power. I
> merely expect it to become a component more or less like the microprocessor
> started.

Right -- by the time you turn it into a "real PC" (display, hard drive,
keyboard, touchpad, battery, case) and add some profit margins, I think
you're largely back to at least the $250-$350 "cheap laptop" that are
already quite common.

The cool thing about the Raspberry Pi is that it's quite hackable and
that it can be cheap by virtue of the fact that most everyone already
has a spare keyboard/mouse sitting around, can use some LCD they already
have, etc.

---Joel

[Don McKenzie]

On 03-Mar-12 7:17 AM, j.m.gr...@gmail.com wrote:

> On Saturday, March 3, 2012 8:32:18 AM UTC+13, Don McKenzie wrote:
>> Is the Raspberry Pi real at that price?
>>
>>

>> They have entered into licensed manufacture partnerships with two British companies, Premier Farnell and RS
>> Components. That means there has to be a dealer margin. If you can retail it at $25, then how much did it cost
>> wholesale?
>>
>> I may be barking up the wrong tree, but am I one of the few sensing something may be very wrong with this deal?
>

> Well, you have the "there has to be a dealer margin" bit wrong, RS/Farnell are selling for more than $35, so their
> margin goes on top.

Thanks Jim, so the $35 price it is openly advertised at, is the wholesale price, not the retail price?
Who else advertises like that to the public?

http://au.element14.com/raspberry-pi/raspbrry-pcba/sbc-raspberry-pi-model-b/dp/2081185
I kept getting forced to the local AU site, however with local dollar conversion, the $38AUD retail becomes $40.77USD

So that is $5.77USD profit. A markup margin of 16.49%.

Perhaps someone can do the sums from a US site.

Cheers Don...

==============================

[rickman]

Now you get it! The LCD as you call it is your TV, and who doesn't
have a keyboard and mouse left over from their Pentium days... opps,
they still market the Pentium in the low end machines. As to the hard
drive, I've got three of them in my pocket and keep a 16GB one in my
computer bag. I saw a 32GB one advertised for $27! I don't remember
if the rPi will take a full size SD or if you need a micro.

Rick

[Dave Platt]

In article <4f512a91$0$26802$e4fe...@dreader35.news.xs4all.nl>,

petrus bitbyter <petrus....@hotmail.com> wrote:

>It certainly attacks some monopolistic behavior of both processor en
>software giants. As it will not do Windows, it may even become a nail in the
>MS-coffin. But the design is too light for serious processing power. I
>merely expect it to become a component more or less like the microprocessor
>started.

As I understand it, the primary intent is to get inexpensive,
programmable devices into the hands of lots of kids, as a learning
tool and as an "enabling technology". So, yeah, it and simiar devices
are probably being viewed as components and building blocks for all
sorts of products, rather than as direct PC replacements.


--
Dave Platt <dpl...@radagast.org> AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

[geoff]

Don McKenzie wrote:
> Is the Raspberry Pi real at that price?
>
> http://www.raspberrypi.org/
> http://twitter.com/#!/raspberry_pi
>
> I can't help but think when you sell 10K pieces of an item at bargain
> basement prices, (and in a single day), and in advance of having the
> products, that there may be something very wrong.
> They have entered into licensed manufacture partnerships with two
> British companies, Premier Farnell and RS Components. That means
> there has to be a dealer margin. If you can retail it at $25, then
> how much did it cost wholesale?
> I may be barking up the wrong tree, but am I one of the few sensing
> something may be very wrong with this deal?

How much do you image the real manufacturing cost of, say, an Android
smartphone is ?

geoff

[Don McKenzie]

On 03-Mar-12 9:11 AM, geoff wrote:

> How much do you image the real manufacturing cost of, say, an Android
> smartphone is ?
>
> geoff

I would imagine it could be in the range of 5% to 20% of the retail price, but it must reach the wholesaler at a price
he can make a living out of it, otherwise he wouldn't be in business.

Cheers Don...

=========================

[Joel Koltner]

Don McKenzie wrote:
> On 03-Mar-12 9:11 AM, geoff wrote:
>> How much do you image the real manufacturing cost of, say, an Android
>> smartphone is ?
>

> I would imagine it could be in the range of 5% to 20% of the retail
> price, but it must reach the wholesaler at a price he can make a living
> out of it, otherwise he wouldn't be in business.

Actually, even Apple isn't able to command that sort of markup with iPhones!

Here's an article that'll give you some more concrete numbers:
http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2010/03/02/what-doth-it-profit-an-iphone .
As you'll see, most phones cost some 60-70% of their selling price.

The margins in consumer electronics are very thin; it works because
there is so much volume. There aren't that many wholesalers left anyway
-- at least in terms of volume, I think it's safe to say the vast
majority of electronics goes straight from the manufacturer to a
retailer; Wal*Mart and Best Buy aren't getting their phones from a
middleman, although some small mom & pop shop likely are.

(Indeed... you sometimes hear small businessmen complain that their
costs for products from their wholesalers are more than the retail price
from Wal*Mart or Costco...)

---Joel

[Nico Coesel]

Joel Koltner <zapwire...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Don McKenzie wrote:
>> On 03-Mar-12 9:11 AM, geoff wrote:
>>> How much do you image the real manufacturing cost of, say, an Android
>>> smartphone is ?
>>
>> I would imagine it could be in the range of 5% to 20% of the retail
>> price, but it must reach the wholesaler at a price he can make a living
>> out of it, otherwise he wouldn't be in business.
>
>Actually, even Apple isn't able to command that sort of markup with iPhones!
>
>Here's an article that'll give you some more concrete numbers:
>http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2010/03/02/what-doth-it-profit-an-iphone .
>As you'll see, most phones cost some 60-70% of their selling price.
>
>The margins in consumer electronics are very thin; it works because
>there is so much volume. There aren't that many wholesalers left anyway
>-- at least in terms of volume, I think it's safe to say the vast
>majority of electronics goes straight from the manufacturer to a
>retailer; Wal*Mart and Best Buy aren't getting their phones from a
>middleman, although some small mom & pop shop likely are.

Thats not entirely true. Shops like WM,BB and similar often have high
costs and usually are not cheap. They sell a few items below cost
price to appear cheap but with other things they most certainly are
not cheap. They are convenient because they have a large stock of many
items. Stock costs money. Smaller shops are cheaper in most cases if
they have what you need.

But then again, online shops are the future. Nowadays I even order
home improvement stuff online.

>(Indeed... you sometimes hear small businessmen complain that their
>costs for products from their wholesalers are more than the retail price
>from Wal*Mart or Costco...)

That's not a 'small business man' that's someone who shouldn't be in
business in the first place.

--
Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply
indicates you are not using the right tools...
nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
--------------------------------------------------------------

[Stephen Pelc]

On Sat, 03 Mar 2012 08:29:37 +1100, Don McKenzie <5...@2.5A> wrote:


>Thanks Jim, so the $35 price it is openly advertised at, is the
>wholesale price, not the retail price? Who else advertises like
>that to the public?

The first batch of 10,000 units sold out in about 10 minutes according
to (sort of) reputable gossip. One of our people set up two PCs and
started pounding the refresh keys at the advertised time of 6a.m. He
still failed to get his order in.

I just got an email from one of the suppliers to place my pre-order
for a board from the second batch. Both suppliers are very reputable
and have both been in business for a very long time. Yes, I did place
my order for a Model B at a bit under £25, say less than USD 40.

I detect a note of "Not Invented Here" in some of the comments.
IMHO Raspberry Pi is a cause for celebration, not for whining.

Stephen

--
Stephen Pelc, steph...@mpeforth.com
MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd - More Real, Less Time
133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England
tel: +44 (0)23 8063 1441, fax: +44 (0)23 8033 9691
web: http://www.mpeforth.com - free VFX Forth downloads

[Grant Edwards]

On 2012-03-03, Stephen Pelc <steph...@mpeforth.com> wrote:

> I detect a note of "Not Invented Here" in some of the comments.
> IMHO Raspberry Pi is a cause for celebration, not for whining.

This is Usenet -- where _everything_ is a cause for whining. :)

--
Grant

[Michael A. Terrell]

Chris Baird wrote:
>
> Don> Thanks Jim, so the $35 price it is openly advertised at, is the
> Don> wholesale price, not the retail price? Who else advertises like
> Don> that to the public?
>
> How about actually bothering to read the RPi website and finding out
> what it's about? It's not Yet Another Garage Businessman effort.


All I found there was a message that the site was down, and to follow
them on Twitter. No thanks. I have an Arduino Mega 2560 and the TI
Launchpad to keep me busy for now. Both were under $35. The Launchpad
was $8 and change, delivered.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

[Michael A. Terrell]

Stephen Pelc wrote:
>
> On Sat, 03 Mar 2012 08:29:37 +1100, Don McKenzie <5...@2.5A> wrote:
>
> >Thanks Jim, so the $35 price it is openly advertised at, is the
> >wholesale price, not the retail price? Who else advertises like
> >that to the public?
>
> The first batch of 10,000 units sold out in about 10 minutes according
> to (sort of) reputable gossip. One of our people set up two PCs and
> started pounding the refresh keys at the advertised time of 6a.m. He
> still failed to get his order in.
>
> I just got an email from one of the suppliers to place my pre-order
> for a board from the second batch. Both suppliers are very reputable
> and have both been in business for a very long time. Yes, I did place
> my order for a Model B at a bit under £25, say less than USD 40.
>
> I detect a note of "Not Invented Here" in some of the comments.
> IMHO Raspberry Pi is a cause for celebration, not for whining.

Your 'people' sound like Apple sheep. Or the idiots who stood
outside computer stores for two days, waiting for the release of Win
95. If it's worthwhile, you'll get them after the madness. BTW, there
is already an Ebay listing for a project box to house the pi.

[Don McKenzie]

On 04-Mar-12 3:47 AM, Chris Baird wrote:
> Don> Thanks Jim, so the $35 price it is openly advertised at, is the
> Don> wholesale price, not the retail price? Who else advertises like
> Don> that to the public?
>
> How about actually bothering to read the RPi website and finding out
> what it's about? It's not Yet Another Garage Businessman effort.

I did that Chris, and this is what it says about price:

How much will it cost?
The Model A will cost $25 and the Model B $35, plus local taxes.

==========================================

The text that you quoted of mine above, was brought about by another poster in a previous message, that suggested this
was the wholesale price, and the dealers would put their margin on top.

I suggested back to the poster that no one advertises at a wholesale price to the public. I also suggest you read the
message and quote me correctly including the text of the original poster, and please don't make up a version to suit
yourself.

I am not whining about the device, it looks good, but I am allowed to ask questions, or are questions banned these days.

Here is the feed back from potential Element14 customers:
http://www.element14.com/community/thread/17002?start=0&tstart=0

and from Raspberry Pi:
http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/723#comments

You will see that the comments on each group are almost the opposite.

Cheers Don...

[Nico Coesel]

steph...@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) wrote:

>On Sat, 03 Mar 2012 08:29:37 +1100, Don McKenzie <5...@2.5A> wrote:
>
>
>>Thanks Jim, so the $35 price it is openly advertised at, is the
>>wholesale price, not the retail price? Who else advertises like
>>that to the public?
>
>The first batch of 10,000 units sold out in about 10 minutes according

Hype?

>I detect a note of "Not Invented Here" in some of the comments.
>IMHO Raspberry Pi is a cause for celebration, not for whining.

There are loads of boards out there (some with better specs) for
reasonable prices based on SoCs for which you can download full
datasheets and user manuals. In the long run such a board will be much
more usefull.

[keithr]

On 3/03/2012 9:21 AM, Don McKenzie wrote:
> On 03-Mar-12 9:11 AM, geoff wrote:
>
>> How much do you image the real manufacturing cost of, say, an Android
>> smartphone is ?
>>
>> geoff
>
> I would imagine it could be in the range of 5% to 20% of the retail
> price, but it must reach the wholesaler at a price he can make a living
> out of it, otherwise he wouldn't be in business.
>
> Cheers Don...
>
> =========================
>
>

RS Australia has it listed at $50, which is probably about what you'd
have to pay to get a $35 item from the UK including shipping.

I will certainly get one as soon as I can, I'd like to see whether it
can run apache as a home web server and home automation machine.

A full Linux machine for $50 is disruptive technology, if it does
perform as the hype suggests, I see a lot of uses for it, and probably a
flood of imitators.

The PIC and Arduino boards certainly have their uses, but horse for
courses.

[rickman]

On Mar 3, 1:08 pm, stephen...@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) wrote:
> On Sat, 03 Mar 2012 08:29:37 +1100, Don McKenzie <5...@2.5A> wrote:
> >Thanks Jim, so the $35 price it is openly advertised at, is the
> >wholesale price, not the retail price? Who else advertises like
> >that to the public?
>
> The first batch of 10,000 units sold out in about 10 minutes according
> to (sort of) reputable gossip. One of our people set up two PCs and
> started pounding the refresh keys at the advertised time of 6a.m. He
> still failed to get his order in.
>
> I just got an email from one of the suppliers to place my pre-order
> for a board from the second batch. Both suppliers are very reputable
> and have both been in business for a very long time. Yes, I did place
> my order for a Model B at a bit under £25, say less than USD 40.
>
> I detect a note of "Not Invented Here" in some of the comments.
> IMHO Raspberry Pi is a cause for celebration, not for whining.
>
> Stephen
>
> --

> Stephen Pelc, stephen...@mpeforth.com

> MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd - More Real, Less Time
> 133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England
> tel: +44 (0)23 8063 1441, fax: +44 (0)23 8033 9691
> web:http://www.mpeforth.com- free VFX Forth downloads

Whatcha gonna do wid dat pi Stephen? If you want to push a forth on a
popular embedded platform, why not go for the BeagleBone?

Rick

[SMS]

On 3/2/2012 11:32 AM, Don McKenzie wrote:
>
> Is the Raspberry Pi real at that price?
>
> http://www.raspberrypi.org/
> http://twitter.com/#!/raspberry_pi
>
> I can't help but think when you sell 10K pieces of an item at bargain
> basement prices, (and in a single day), and in advance of having the
> products, that there may be something very wrong.
>
> They have entered into licensed manufacture partnerships with two
> British companies, Premier Farnell and RS Components.
> That means there has to be a dealer margin. If you can retail it at $25,
> then how much did it cost wholesale?
>
> I may be barking up the wrong tree, but am I one of the few sensing
> something may be very wrong with this deal?
>
> Have a look at what Tsvetan from Olimex said in a forum thread about it
> here:
> http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4748&PN=1
>
> Anyone have insider information that what I am saying is completely off
> the mark?

Embedded processors are very inexpensive. $25 is not out of line, even
with healthy margins.

[rickman]

Really, disruptive technology? Is this really much less than the cost
of a smart cell phone which has a user interface and also makes phone
calls!

Rick

[TheGlimmerMan]

On Sat, 3 Mar 2012 20:07:02 -0800 (PST), rickman <gnu...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Really, disruptive technology? Is this really much less than the cost
>of a smart cell phone which has a user interface and also makes phone
>calls!
>
>Rick

You cannot physically turn things on and off with that (the phone). All
you can do is control the devices which can (these devices).

His can switch relays on and off. The damned things do need a net
connection though.

So, look at say the ten times overpriced "industry" that was made by a
few for billiard halls to turn the lights on and off,and log play times.

Each "receiver/switch" was very expensive and each table needs one.
The software was expensive as well.

This would allow one to control any number of tables for a little over
$40 each. And you could author and perfect your own time logging
application. You could even put dimmers in and control the light level.

I could sell this, if pool had more popularity. Sadly, operating costs
have grown so much that the per hour rate for pool has gotten ridiculous.
They even charge per person now in some places instead of per table.

How truly sad. Bastards actually want to make money. It should be
popular though.

Dumb folks everywhere would rather give a bar money for liquor though.

Billiards should be more popular.

[WoolyBully]

Show me where your "cheap laptop" (or any laptop practically) has gpio
header or a readily available jtag header.

[bitrex]

I was discussing with someone that the Pi could be used as a musical
instrument: add an inexpensive USB audio/MIDI interface plus some
software, hook up a MIDI controller keyboard, and you have a hardware
sampler/synthesizer that can stream mega or gigabyte sound "patches" off
the memory card. It could probably run the stage lighting if it's DMX
equipped. And you're not out a grand if someone spills their beer on
it, unlike a laptop.

[TheGlimmerMan]

On Sun, 04 Mar 2012 01:04:00 -0500, bitrex <bit...@de.lete.earthlink.net>
wrote:

Conformal coat it. After you hook everything up to it. :-)

[Martin Brown]

On 02/03/2012 19:32, Don McKenzie wrote:
>
> Is the Raspberry Pi real at that price?
>
> http://www.raspberrypi.org/
> http://twitter.com/#!/raspberry_pi
>
> I can't help but think when you sell 10K pieces of an item at bargain
> basement prices, (and in a single day), and in advance of having the
> products, that there may be something very wrong.
>
> They have entered into licensed manufacture partnerships with two
> British companies, Premier Farnell and RS Components.
> That means there has to be a dealer margin. If you can retail it at $25,
> then how much did it cost wholesale?

It is retailing at £25 ($40). There is another rival development single
board of similar size and lesser capability for about £10 (but much less
sophisticated). At least part of the intention is educational to make
computing and electronics engineering more interesting to school
children. The existing UK syllabus churns out MickeySoft Office drone
users with no clue at all how PCs and software work. In a reference back
to the BBC Micro they have even called them Models A and B.

>
> I may be barking up the wrong tree, but am I one of the few sensing
> something may be very wrong with this deal?

I think they expect to sell a lot of them and since the opening day took
down both the major UK electronics suppliers websites they could well be
right. It is priced to allow every schoolchild to have one.

I reckon they called in a lot of favours to get it designed for maximum
capability, minimum cost and built for that price. I wish them good luck
with the project. We need to get more youngsters interested in
engineering at school as opposed to soft options "meedja studdis".

Brian Cox and Jim Alkalili have already turned round the decline of the
hard sciences. The former making Physics very "cool" at the moment!

>
> Have a look at what Tsvetan from Olimex said in a forum thread about it
> here:
> http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4748&PN=1
>
> Anyone have insider information that what I am saying is completely off
> the mark?

> Comments?
>
> Of course, If I am off the mark, this will be more free advertising for
> them. :-)

I expect there isn't a lot of margin but the price isn't completely
impossible either. Just look at the cheapest PC graphics cards.

If it becomes the new BBC Micro it will engage a new generation of
children in direct connection with real electronics and software at a
level where it can be relatively easily understood and played with.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Don McKenzie]

On 04-Mar-12 7:30 PM, Chris Baird wrote:

> You missed the part about the RPi Foundation being a non-profit
> educationally-motivated effort, hurr.

No I read that Chris.

The Raspberry Pi Foundation is a UK registered charity (Registration Number 1129409)

Who controls Rasperry Pi?
Who controls Rasperry Pi foundation?
Who controls the CPU chip manufacturer?

Answer: Broadcom

That is the way I read it Chris. Please tell me if I am wrong.

Cheers Don...

[notbob]

On 2012-03-04, Don McKenzie <5...@2.5A> wrote:

> That is the way I read it Chris. Please tell me if I am wrong.

This week old article, straight from the horse's mouth, clears up a lot
of confusion:

http://tinyurl.com/7c8wrue

nb


--
Fight internet CENSORSHIP - Fight SOPA-PIPA
Contact your congressman and/or representative, now!
http://projects.propublica.org/sopa/
vi --the heart of evil!

[Nico Coesel]

TheGlimmerMan <justag...@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote:

>On Sat, 3 Mar 2012 20:07:02 -0800 (PST), rickman <gnu...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Really, disruptive technology? Is this really much less than the cost
>>of a smart cell phone which has a user interface and also makes phone
>>calls!
>>
>>Rick
>
> You cannot physically turn things on and off with that (the phone). All
>you can do is control the devices which can (these devices).
>
> His can switch relays on and off. The damned things do need a net
>connection though.
>
> So, look at say the ten times overpriced "industry" that was made by a
>few for billiard halls to turn the lights on and off,and log play times.
>
> Each "receiver/switch" was very expensive and each table needs one.
>The software was expensive as well.
>
> This would allow one to control any number of tables for a little over
>$40 each. And you could author and perfect your own time logging
>application. You could even put dimmers in and control the light level.

For this kind of products the costs are not in the hardware but in the
software.

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

In many areas, every high school student gets a laptop. It hasn't changed
anything outside the school budgets.

>I reckon they called in a lot of favours to get it designed for maximum
>capability, minimum cost and built for that price. I wish them good luck
>with the project. We need to get more youngsters interested in
>engineering at school as opposed to soft options "meedja studdis".

I don't see how that follows, either. It may entice some latent code monkeys
but I don't see how a finished product like this is going to create a
significant number of budding engineers. That's a tough one, given the level
of integration today.

>Brian Cox and Jim Alkalili have already turned round the decline of the
>hard sciences. The former making Physics very "cool" at the moment!

Never heard of them but it looks cool.

>> Have a look at what Tsvetan from Olimex said in a forum thread about it
>> here:
>> http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4748&PN=1
>>
>> Anyone have insider information that what I am saying is completely off
>> the mark?
>> Comments?
>>
>> Of course, If I am off the mark, this will be more free advertising for
>> them. :-)
>
>I expect there isn't a lot of margin but the price isn't completely
>impossible either. Just look at the cheapest PC graphics cards.

Amazing.

>If it becomes the new BBC Micro it will engage a new generation of
>children in direct connection with real electronics and software at a
>level where it can be relatively easily understood and played with.

I don't see how a canned computer interests anyone in electronics. Software,
maybe. More script kiddies, sure. I don't see the latter as being
particularly useful (in the global economy), though.

[TheGlimmerMan]

On Sun, 04 Mar 2012 14:11:07 GMT, ni...@puntnl.niks (Nico Coesel) wrote:

>
>For this kind of products the costs are not in the hardware but in the
>software.

It runs Linux, idiot.

It would be VERY easy to write a program to turn them on and off, and
log the time accrued and then do an OLTP set up for the tax boys.

I was not talking about, nor would I give such "software assholes" the
pleasure of getting ten times what something is worth, by buying their
crap.

I wrote OLTP systems years ago. It ain't all that, and no author
deserves to price that way in my book. That's why I got hired. Because I
deliver on performance, not some lame appearance of professionalism.

We have labeling software that was written in the old W 3.11 days, and
the idiots are still using the same, single process thread code. Yet
they want thousands per seat, simply because it is paired with the
printers for the labels, and it does bar codes reliably.

Pretty sad that they got so greedy simply because it was for a
business. Their crap ain't worth $50.

[Paul]

In article <e9H4r.6733$X%7.6...@newsfe01.iad>,
|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk says...

>
> On 02/03/2012 19:32, Don McKenzie wrote:
> >
> > Is the Raspberry Pi real at that price?
> >
> > http://www.raspberrypi.org/
> > http://twitter.com/#!/raspberry_pi
> >
> > I can't help but think when you sell 10K pieces of an item at bargain
> > basement prices, (and in a single day), and in advance of having the
> > products, that there may be something very wrong.
> >
> > They have entered into licensed manufacture partnerships with two
> > British companies, Premier Farnell and RS Components.
> > That means there has to be a dealer margin. If you can retail it at $25,
> > then how much did it cost wholesale?
>
> It is retailing at £25 ($40). There is another rival development single
> board of similar size and lesser capability for about £10 (but much less
> sophisticated). At least part of the intention is educational to make
> computing and electronics engineering more interesting to school
> children.

Yes and it may succeed in part...

> The existing UK syllabus churns out MickeySoft Office drone
> users with no clue at all how PCs and software work.

Which UK syllabus are you on about?

I help my partner who TEACHES the syllabus for ICT and computing to
11 - 18 year olds for ICT and Computing.

The syllabus for ICT includes many other aspects from animation and
image manipulation to differences between serial and parallel busses,
from 11 to 14 they often use Scratch to learn logic fundamentals and
other aspects.

Many inexperienced teachers may follow the MS Office route as they know
no different or it is foisted on them by management or IT services or
Education Authority. Know of some schools that insist on OpenOffice
so kids can use it on home sysems as well for minimal cost.

When it comes to computing at A level (17-18 year olds), I know in one
school they actually spend a year with command line and GUi python, then
do PHP, SQL databases and many other aspects. Even learn about logic
gates, hamming codes, A/D, D/A and Nyquist.

> In a reference back
> to the BBC Micro they have even called them Models A and B.
> >
> > I may be barking up the wrong tree, but am I one of the few sensing
> > something may be very wrong with this deal?
>
> I think they expect to sell a lot of them and since the opening day took
> down both the major UK electronics suppliers websites they could well be
> right. It is priced to allow every schoolchild to have one.
>
> I reckon they called in a lot of favours to get it designed for maximum
> capability, minimum cost and built for that price. I wish them good luck
> with the project. We need to get more youngsters interested in
> engineering at school as opposed to soft options "meedja studdis".

Media Studies is often taken by the masses of kids in days gone by would
not even consider doing A levels but now do. For them it is an
ACHEIVABLE subject where as ICT and Computing is not, let alone Maths or
sciences.

There are not so many shit shovelling jobs about these days, so they
have to get qualifications. Won't be long before you need a degree to
considered competent to use a shovel.


--
Paul Carpenter | pa...@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk
<http://www.pcserviceselectronics.co.uk/> PC Services
<http://www.pcserviceselectronics.co.uk/fonts/> Timing Diagram Font
<http://www.gnuh8.org.uk/> GNU H8 - compiler & Renesas H8/H8S/H8 Tiny
<http://www.badweb.org.uk/> For those web sites you hate

[Don Y]

On 3/4/2012 8:51 AM, k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:

[much -- including attributions -- elided, thorughout]

>> I think they expect to sell a lot of them and since the opening day took
>> down both the major UK electronics suppliers websites they could well be
>> right. It is priced to allow every schoolchild to have one.
>
> In many areas, every high school student gets a laptop. It hasn't changed
> anything outside the school budgets.

+1

>> I reckon they called in a lot of favours to get it designed for maximum
>> capability, minimum cost and built for that price. I wish them good luck
>> with the project. We need to get more youngsters interested in
>> engineering at school as opposed to soft options "meedja studdis".
>
> I don't see how that follows, either. It may entice some latent code monkeys
> but I don't see how a finished product like this is going to create a
> significant number of budding engineers. That's a tough one, given the level
> of integration today.

+1

>> If it becomes the new BBC Micro it will engage a new generation of
>> children in direct connection with real electronics and software at a
>> level where it can be relatively easily understood and played with.
>
> I don't see how a canned computer interests anyone in electronics. Software,
> maybe. More script kiddies, sure. I don't see the latter as being
> particularly useful (in the global economy), though.

Exactly. Every kid I know owns a cell phone. I've never had
any of them ask me how it works, what's inside, etc. Ditto
for their computer. ("It's broke! I need a NEW ONE!!")

How many kids drive cars but don't know where the *oil* fill is?
Or that there even *is* oil in the engine (and WHY it's there)?

If cars were $500, do you think kids would buy them to learn
how to *tinker* with them? Or, the ECU's therein?

Or, do you think they would just consider them "MORE disposable"?

40-50 years ago, it was common to find these "electronics kits"
that were little more than a bunch of *springs* (to allow quick
connection of individual wires) connected to a few dozen discrete
components. Stitch the components together with wires to make
oscillators, transmitters, etc. The theory presented along with
the examples/exercises was obviously watered down to the audience
intended. But, it got you thinking about those components.

Make those components considerably more integrated and you have
so distanced yourself from the underlying engineering (no, I don't
claim you want kids learning photolithography) that it's little
more than hooking extra boxcars on a toy train. ("Gee, let me put
the caboose IN THE MIDDLE...")

"Script kiddies" is a good way of summarizing it.

[Don McKenzie]

On 05-Mar-12 1:02 AM, notbob wrote:
> On 2012-03-04, Don McKenzie<5...@2.5A> wrote:
>
>> That is the way I read it Chris. Please tell me if I am wrong.
>
> This week old article, straight from the horse's mouth, clears up a lot
> of confusion:

yes it does, thanks for the URL nb,

I just hope rPi is the real deal, and it bears fruit for everyone involved.
I guess all parties will simply have to wait.

[Michael A. Terrell]

GROW UP AND STOP YOUR WHINING!!! ;-)

[Nico Coesel]

TheGlimmerMan <justag...@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote:

>On Sun, 04 Mar 2012 14:11:07 GMT, ni...@puntnl.niks (Nico Coesel) wrote:
>
>>
>>For this kind of products the costs are not in the hardware but in the
>>software.
>
>

> It would be VERY easy to write a program to turn them on and off, and
>log the time accrued and then do an OLTP set up for the tax boys.

That part is easy. Now try to store the data and present it (turnover,
utilisation). And while you are at it, add some management functions
like different tarifs for different times & days. Lock-out during
certain hours, etc, etc. Oh, and how about being able to do things
remote from on -say- a tablet? Thats what customers want these days.

> Pretty sad that they got so greedy simply because it was for a
>business. Their crap ain't worth $50.

IMHO you are whining because you missed out on that opportunity.

[rickman]

Yes, and if you had an onion it would make my stone soup taste a lot
better too!

You are ignoring that you still need to connect the rPi to a display
of some sort, usually about the same cost as a laptop (where did you
get the grand price?) and keyboard and mouse. The difference is the
laptop will actually do the job without screwing with how to connect
it all up without being a tangle of wires all over.

Rick

[rickman]

On Mar 4, 8:06 am, Don McKenzie <5...@2.5A> wrote:
> On 04-Mar-12 7:30 PM, Chris Baird wrote:
>
> > You missed the part about the RPi Foundation being a non-profit
> > educationally-motivated effort, hurr.
>
> No I read that Chris.
>
> The Raspberry Pi Foundation is a UK registered charity (Registration Number 1129409)
>
> Who controls Rasperry Pi?
> Who controls Rasperry Pi foundation?
> Who controls the CPU chip manufacturer?
>
> Answer: Broadcom
>
> That is the way I read it Chris. Please tell me if I am wrong.
>
> Cheers Don...
>
> ====================
>
> --
> Don McKenzie
>
> Dontronics:http://www.dontronics-shop.com/
>

> DuinoMite the PIC32 $35 Basic Computer-MicroControllerhttp://www.dontronics-shop.com/the-maximite-computer.html

> Just add a VGA monitor or TV, and PS2 Keyboard.
> Arduino Shield, Programmed in Basic, or C.

Chris is starting to sound very troll like. I don't get his points at
all and I don't see a need for his rudeness. I'm glad you can keep
this discussion civil.

Rick

[Jamie]

That aint nothing! spit!


:)


Jamie

[Don McKenzie]

On 05-Mar-12 10:30 AM, rickman wrote:

> Chris is starting to sound very troll like. I don't get his points at
> all and I don't see a need for his rudeness. I'm glad you can keep
> this discussion civil.
>
> Rick

Thanks for the support Rick,

The reason I started this thread was because of Tsvetan at Olimex, who was trying to purchase a unit at the the embedded
world Conference 2012 28.2. - 1.3.2012, Nuremberg, in Germany last week. Below are his comments from a forum thread:

======================
djuqa wrote:
And for those of you that haven't heard the news, they sold out within a couple hours.
======================
Tsvetan wrote:
I do not believe this, this is what is written on their web page:
=====================
djuqa wrote:
Although we are still waiting for units to arrive from China, you can start buying the Raspberry Pi today.
=====================
Tsvetan wrote:
so they never ran this 10K batch, and now you can pre-order from Farnell and RS-Components and wait 60 days, hoping that
they will finally manage to arrange the manufacturing.

it's pity as it all seems now to look like cheap advertising for Broadcom for their processor. (the man behind this
project - Mr. Raspberry Pi is working for Broadcom)

They said they will produce complete linux computer with HDMI for $25, but they obviously have no any manufacturing
background nor they every did production in any scale, and 10K unit production is not so easy as they think.
It was really funny to read on their forum how they intend to manufacture the boards in UK but the "import taxes" were
holding them off, to build just tester for such board which to load the linux image and do the functional test for
series of 10K pcs will cost about 200K GBP so they will not fit in their budged just to test the boards in UK.

$25 is the Arduino board price tag, releasing board with 256MB RAM and ARM on 700 Mhz at this price have no business
logic/background - this you can achieve for board with 8bit micro or you have to not include re-seller margin and to
work on really tight budged. I don't say this is not possible, there are Bit-tornet loaders on Deal Extreme for $30
which run linux but there the processor is smaller and with no HDMI, so if the chinese can't do it for $25 I don't see
how UK based company will arrange the production.

The board which came close to these specs is the BeagleBone for $89 which TI sells to selected developers at cost for $50-60

Raspberry PI so far just makes press releases and sold few boards for 1000 GBP each on e-bay, they had to release this
10K batch in December, January, February, end of February and now it looks like the earliest release date through
Farnell is April .. 1st

I really wanted to buy one at Embedded but had no chance.

To add on top of this the closed source code for the Broadcom processor, this board will have never mainstream linux
support like Beagle and other boards which are with completely open source drivers.

==========================

It worries me just a little that the rPi, the rPi foundation, and the rPi processor used, is all Broadcom.

Don...

[TheGlimmerMan]

On Sun, 04 Mar 2012 20:33:11 GMT, ni...@puntnl.niks (Nico Coesel) wrote:

>That part is easy. Now try to store the data and present it (turnover,
>utilisation).

You obviously didn't even read what I wrote. I used to author OLTP
transaction systems and databases. Your "turnover utilization" is
trivial.

> And while you are at it, add some management functions
>like different tarifs for different times & days.

Real simple. The operator turns the table on,and it has the rates
already programmed into the tally it keeps.

> Lock-out during
>certain hours, etc, etc.

Can't give out a table if the doors are closed, idiot.

> Oh, and how about being able to do things
>remote from on -say- a tablet?

The clerk at a business is always at a(the) cash register and he can't
spawn a rack of balls from his iPhone, you fucking iTard!

> Thats what customers want these days.

You're an idiot,these days.

[TheGlimmerMan]

On Sun, 04 Mar 2012 20:33:11 GMT, ni...@puntnl.niks (Nico Coesel) wrote:

>
>> Pretty sad that they got so greedy simply because it was for a
>>business. Their crap ain't worth $50.
>
>IMHO you are whining because you missed out on that opportunity.

You'rean idiot.I made a complaint about some label software we use.

Stop being a Larkinesque pathetic little bitch.

[Anders....@kapsi.spam.stop.fi.invalid]

In comp.arch.embedded rickman <gnu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 4, 1:04 am, bitrex <bit...@de.lete.earthlink.net> wrote:
>> I was discussing with someone that the Pi could be used as a musical
>> instrument: add an inexpensive USB audio/MIDI interface plus some
>> software, hook up a MIDI controller keyboard, and you have a hardware
>> sampler/synthesizer that can stream mega or gigabyte sound "patches" off
>> the memory card.  It could probably run the stage lighting if it's DMX
>> equipped.  And you're not out a grand if someone spills their beer on
>> it, unlike a laptop.

> You are ignoring that you still need to connect the rPi to a display
> of some sort, usually about the same cost as a laptop (where did you
> get the grand price?) and keyboard and mouse.

I believe the suggested idea was to use the Pi as an embedded DSP board for
sound generation. Have it boot directly into the synth software, control it
over MIDI (serial or USB) and you don't need any other input nor an attached
display.

-a

[Nico Coesel]

Don McKenzie <5...@2.5A> wrote:

>On 05-Mar-12 10:30 AM, rickman wrote:
>
>> Chris is starting to sound very troll like. I don't get his points at
>> all and I don't see a need for his rudeness. I'm glad you can keep
>> this discussion civil.
>>
>> Rick
>
>Thanks for the support Rick,
>
>The reason I started this thread was because of Tsvetan at Olimex, who was trying to purchase a unit at the the embedded
>world Conference 2012 28.2. - 1.3.2012, Nuremberg, in Germany last week. Below are his comments from a forum thread:

>work on really tight budged. I don't say this is not possible, there are Bit-tornet loaders on Deal Extreme for $30
>which run linux but there the processor is smaller and with no HDMI, so if the chinese can't do it for $25 I don't see
>how UK based company will arrange the production.
>
>The board which came close to these specs is the BeagleBone for $89 which TI sells to selected developers at cost for $50-60
>
>Raspberry PI so far just makes press releases and sold few boards for 1000 GBP each on e-bay, they had to release this
>10K batch in December, January, February, end of February and now it looks like the earliest release date through
>Farnell is April .. 1st
>
>I really wanted to buy one at Embedded but had no chance.
>
>To add on top of this the closed source code for the Broadcom processor, this board will have never mainstream linux
>support like Beagle and other boards which are with completely open source drivers.
>
>==========================
>
>It worries me just a little that the rPi, the rPi foundation, and the rPi processor used, is all Broadcom.

Maybe its Broadcom's way to enter the industrial market. This market
is mostly served by TI and Freescale. They used to have expensive eval
kits. Since the Beagleboard caught on so well and got TI a lot of
business Freescale is also offering low cost development boards.

[Anders....@kapsi.spam.stop.fi.invalid]

In comp.arch.embedded Don McKenzie <5...@2.5a> wrote:
> The reason I started this thread was because of Tsvetan at Olimex, who
> was trying to purchase a unit at the the embedded world Conference 2012
> 28.2. - 1.3.2012, Nuremberg, in Germany last week. Below are his comments

> =====================
> Tsvetan wrote:
> so they never ran this 10K batch, and now you can pre-order from Farnell
> and RS-Components and wait 60 days, hoping that they will finally manage
> to arrange the manufacturing.

The board first went to manufacturing in January(1). Component supply
problems meant it was delayed to the end of February(2). Rather than
handling it themselves, this first batch has been handed over to Farnell and
RS for distribution. Future production will also be handled by Farnell and
RS.

> it's pity as it all seems now to look like cheap advertising for Broadcom
> for their processor. (the man behind this
> project - Mr. Raspberry Pi is working for Broadcom)

So what? The principals behind the BeagleBoard work for TI.

> $25 is the Arduino board price tag, releasing board with 256MB RAM and
> ARM on 700 Mhz at this price have no business logic/background - this you
> can achieve for board with 8bit micro or you have to not include re-seller
> margin and to work on really tight budged.

Both of these are correct. The price does not include a reseller margin
because there was not intended to be a reseller. Consequently the prices
reported in most regions are slightly higher than the ones set by the
Raspberry Foundation.

> I don't say this is not possible, there are Bit-tornet loaders on Deal
> Extreme for $30 which run linux but there the processor is smaller and
> with no HDMI, so if the chinese can't do it for $25 I don't see
> how UK based company will arrange the production.

It should be noted that the $25 Model A board includes neither Ethernet nor
HDMI.

> The board which came close to these specs is the BeagleBone for $89 which
> TI sells to selected developers at cost for $50-60

Some comments from a BeagleBoard community representative (also a TI
employee, shock horror):
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/beagleboard/ZoWx0hvUPmw/WgqVAkbu2pAJ>

> To add on top of this the closed source code for the Broadcom processor,
> this board will have never mainstream linux support like Beagle and other
> boards which are with completely open source drivers.

At least the 3D graphics for the BeagleBoards use a binary blob driver.

> It worries me just a little that the rPi, the rPi foundation, and the rPi
> processor used, is all Broadcom.

Why? Also, Eben Upton is the only foundation trustee employed by Broadcom.

-a
(ps. Please fix your line width)

(1) <http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/509>
(2) <http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/615>

[Don McKenzie]

On 05-Mar-12 12:05 PM, Anders....@kapsi.spam.stop.fi.invalid wrote:

>> $25 is the Arduino board price tag, releasing board with 256MB RAM and
>> ARM on 700 Mhz at this price have no business logic/background - this you
>> can achieve for board with 8bit micro or you have to not include re-seller
>> margin and to work on really tight budged.
>
> Both of these are correct. The price does not include a reseller margin
> because there was not intended to be a reseller. Consequently the prices
> reported in most regions are slightly higher than the ones set by the
> Raspberry Foundation.

Thanks for the feed back Anders.

I don't know if you have insider information, or if this is your take on it.

If the price quoted isn't the retail price, do you think it would be fair at this stage if Broadcom announced this, and
adjusted the price they are quoting, so that it reflects what the public is going to pay?

Or at least made mention of it being a wholesale price, not a retail price?

> -a
> (ps. Please fix your line width)

seems fine to me.

Cheers Don...

==========================

[Grant Edwards]

On 2012-03-05, Don McKenzie <5...@2.5A> wrote:
> On 05-Mar-12 12:05 PM, Anders....@kapsi.spam.stop.fi.invalid wrote:
>
>>> $25 is the Arduino board price tag, releasing board with 256MB RAM and
>>> ARM on 700 Mhz at this price have no business logic/background - this you
>>> can achieve for board with 8bit micro or you have to not include re-seller
>>> margin and to work on really tight budged.
>>
>> Both of these are correct. The price does not include a reseller margin
>> because there was not intended to be a reseller. Consequently the prices
>> reported in most regions are slightly higher than the ones set by the
>> Raspberry Foundation.
>
> Thanks for the feed back Anders.
>
> I don't know if you have insider information, or if this is your take on it.
>
> If the price quoted isn't the retail price, do you think it would be fair at this stage if Broadcom announced this, and
> adjusted the price they are quoting, so that it reflects what the public is going to pay?
>
> Or at least made mention of it being a wholesale price, not a retail price?
>
>> -a
>> (ps. Please fix your line width)
>
> seems fine to me.

I guess as long as your posts are intended only for yourself, that's
fine. If you want others to read them, then fix you line width. I
gave up about 1/4 of the way through your post because of the bad
formatting.

--
Grant.

[WoolyBully]

On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 14:10:50 +1100, Don McKenzie <5...@2.5A> wrote:

>> -a
>> (ps. Please fix your line width)
>
>seems fine to me.
>
>Cheers Don...

Usenet line length should be set to 72 characters or less.

You have been told this for years.

Instead of being an asshole, like has been the case with this for years
with you... Instead of telling folks to "set their length" on their
end... YOU should be doing what all civil Usenet posters did decades
ago!

Set your fucking max line length to 72 characters or less for Usenet
posts, you fucking inconsiderate fuck!

Cheers that, idiot.

[Anders....@kapsi.spam.stop.fi.invalid]

In comp.arch.embedded Don McKenzie <5...@2.5a> wrote:

> I don't know if you have insider information, or if this is your take on
> it.

This is all publically available information.

> If the price quoted isn't the retail price, do you think it would be fair
> at this stage if Broadcom announced this, and adjusted the price they are
> quoting, so that it reflects what the public is going to pay?

Broadcom has nothing to do with the price, so why would they announce
anything about it?

The final retail price is set by the distributors (RS and Farnell), and at
least at the moment the advertised price seems to vary by local branch. Eg.
RS UK are still advertising a price of £21.60(1), which converts to $34.22,
but in the Philippines they are advertising it for PHP2000(2), which
converts to $47.43.

> Or at least made mention of it being a wholesale price, not a retail price?

It's not a wholesale price.

-a

(1) <http://uk.rs-online.com/web/generalDisplay.html?id=raspberrypi>
(2) <http://philippines.rs-online.com/web/generalDisplay.html?id=raspberrypi>

[Don McKenzie]

On 05-Mar-12 2:35 PM, WoolyBully wrote:

> Instead of being an asshole, like has been the case with this for years
> with you... Instead of telling folks to "set their length" on their
> end... YOU should be doing what all civil Usenet posters did decades
> ago!
>
> Set your fucking max line length to 72 characters or less for Usenet
> posts, you fucking inconsiderate fuck!

thanks for your courteous response WoolyBully. Nice to see there are a
few of you still left in the world. You should have told me years ago if
you were aware, shouldn't you?

Sorry all, somewhere between all the tbird version updates from V3 to
V10 in very quick time, my Mailnews.wraplength was reset from 72 to 120.

All should be well now.

Cheers Don...

[Don McKenzie]

On 05-Mar-12 3:04 PM, Anders....@kapsi.spam.stop.fi.invalid wrote:

>> Or at least made mention of it being a wholesale price, not a retail price?
>
> It's not a wholesale price.

Thanks Anders, so for clarification, it is a retail price, but retailers
are going to put another margin on top, in order to make a profit.

Cheers Don...

[Martin Brown]

On 05/03/2012 04:04, Anders....@kapsi.spam.stop.fi.invalid wrote:
> In comp.arch.embedded Don McKenzie<5...@2.5a> wrote:
>> I don't know if you have insider information, or if this is your take on
>> it.
>
> This is all publically available information.
>
>> If the price quoted isn't the retail price, do you think it would be fair
>> at this stage if Broadcom announced this, and adjusted the price they are
>> quoting, so that it reflects what the public is going to pay?
>
> Broadcom has nothing to do with the price, so why would they announce
> anything about it?

They might get some good publicity out of it on the coat tails of a
project that has from nowhere suddenly fired up the public imagination.

>
> The final retail price is set by the distributors (RS and Farnell), and at
> least at the moment the advertised price seems to vary by local branch. Eg.
> RS UK are still advertising a price of £21.60(1), which converts to $34.22,
> but in the Philippines they are advertising it for PHP2000(2), which
> converts to $47.43.

I think you will find there is 20% VAT to pay on top of the RS list
price so the end user price inclusive of tax if they are not a VAT
registered business will be £25.92.

>> Or at least made mention of it being a wholesale price, not a retail price?
>
> It's not a wholesale price.

It is the one off "I want to buy one" price and at the moment purchases
are limited to *one* per customer.

>
> -a
>
> (1)<http://uk.rs-online.com/web/generalDisplay.html?id=raspberrypi>
> (2)<http://philippines.rs-online.com/web/generalDisplay.html?id=raspberrypi>

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Martin Brown]

On 04/03/2012 15:51, k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
> On Sun, 04 Mar 2012 10:07:11 +0000, Martin Brown
> <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 02/03/2012 19:32, Don McKenzie wrote:
>>>

>>> I may be barking up the wrong tree, but am I one of the few sensing
>>> something may be very wrong with this deal?
>>
>> I think they expect to sell a lot of them and since the opening day took
>> down both the major UK electronics suppliers websites they could well be
>> right. It is priced to allow every schoolchild to have one.
>
> In many areas, every high school student gets a laptop. It hasn't changed
> anything outside the school budgets.

The idea in this case stems from academia and the shortage of new
undergraduates interested in the nuts and bolts of computing.

>
>> I reckon they called in a lot of favours to get it designed for maximum
>> capability, minimum cost and built for that price. I wish them good luck
>> with the project. We need to get more youngsters interested in
>> engineering at school as opposed to soft options "meedja studdis".
>
> I don't see how that follows, either. It may entice some latent code monkeys
> but I don't see how a finished product like this is going to create a
> significant number of budding engineers. That's a tough one, given the level
> of integration today.

I agree. I cut my teeth taking apart TTL from failed ICL1900 boards and
sorting the house codes into 74xx chips to test and build new things.
These days with tight multilegged surface mount devices you stand no
chance of getting bits to play with from old scrap boards.

>
>> Brian Cox and Jim Alkalili have already turned round the decline of the
>> hard sciences. The former making Physics very "cool" at the moment!
>
> Never heard of them but it looks cool.
>
>>> Have a look at what Tsvetan from Olimex said in a forum thread about it
>>> here:
>>> http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4748&PN=1
>>>
>>> Anyone have insider information that what I am saying is completely off
>>> the mark?
>>> Comments?
>>>
>>> Of course, If I am off the mark, this will be more free advertising for
>>> them. :-)
>>
>> I expect there isn't a lot of margin but the price isn't completely
>> impossible either. Just look at the cheapest PC graphics cards.
>
> Amazing.
>
>> If it becomes the new BBC Micro it will engage a new generation of
>> children in direct connection with real electronics and software at a
>> level where it can be relatively easily understood and played with.
>
> I don't see how a canned computer interests anyone in electronics. Software,

We will have to wait and see how it plays out. The BBC micro in its day
spawned a whole bunch of DIY add-ons as did the ill fated Sinclair QL.

> maybe. More script kiddies, sure. I don't see the latter as being
> particularly useful (in the global economy), though.

The modern PC is just too complicated for children to learn to program
well and interface to DIY external hardware.

I just hope that they have got the software programming toolset for this
device right. Since Alan Mycroft is an expert in compiler design and
static code testing there is a sporting chance that it will provide a
useful environment for teaching computer internals at school.

http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~am21/

I haven't seen one in the flesh yet. But the pedigree of the trustees of
Raspberry Pi is excellent in terms of computer science skills.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Mon, 5 Mar 2012 03:33:41 +0000 (UTC)) it happened Grant
Edwards <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <jj1c6l$cff$1...@reader1.panix.com>:

Bull, there is no line length limit on Usenet It is an artistic decision!

[keithr]

I don't know about where you live, but around here a small TV with an
HDMI input is a lot cheaper than a laptop. Ditto for a cheap display.

> (where did you get the grand price?) and keyboard and mouse.

Keyboard 10 bucks mouse probably even cheaper.

> the difference is the

[Dennis]

"keithr" <ke...@nowhere.com.au> wrote in message
news:4f54afc0$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...

Woolies are flogging usb kbds for $2.99 standard price.

[My Name Is Tzu How Do You Do]

On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 09:02:16 +0000, Martin Brown
<|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>> In many areas, every high school student gets a laptop. It hasn't changed
>> anything outside the school budgets.
>
>The idea in this case stems from academia and the shortage of new
>undergraduates interested in the nuts and bolts of computing.
>>

Most college coursework is enhanced with laptop ownership. Any student
in his or her right mind will have one, and it has nothing to do with
interest in the science.

ALL engineers have them. There are only a few engineers' offices at
work which are not fitted without a computer, but *with* a laptop docking
station.

It also poses policy and protocol logistical needs for drive encryption
to keep your company's data theirs.

[StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt]

On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 11:30:13 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Bull, there is no line length limit on Usenet

> It is an artistic decision!

You are a goddamned idiot.

Jan Pan and his utter fucking universal stupidity strikes the group with
his retarded FUD again!

Is that why your pathetic horseshit just caused my NNTP host to reject
my reply to your pathetic, retarded ass? You fucking IDIOT!

I had to actually REMOVE your pathetic GAP before it would. THAT is how
fucking retarded YOU are, NOT my reader OR my NNTP provider.

IT IS ALL YOU, ASSWIPE!

-------------------------

It WAS a *consideration* civil Usenet posters GAVE to each other, just
like NOT top posting, and other 'givens' that you are too fucking stupid
to even be aware of.

Compliant folks are considered to be civil. Non-compliant folks are
considered:

1) To be an idiot for not seeing the common sense the civil among us
enjoy.

2) To be an idiot for being so goddamned lazy in not setting up your
news client correctly that your civility and professional respect is
compromised, OR...

3) To be an idiot because you access Usenet with an ALSO non-compliant
client application or via the web, and you think that because its
defaults do not have it, it must not be right, and refuse to make a
simple settings change.

Essentially, you know nothing of what you speak on AGAIN. It has not a
goddamned thing to do with art. It has to do with community, and
retarded little twits like you who fuck communities up. You are a
goddamned idiot. Period.

[Grant Edwards]

On 2012-03-05, Jan Panteltje <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>>>> (ps. Please fix your line width)
>>>
>>> seems fine to me.
>>
>>I guess as long as your posts are intended only for yourself, that's
>>fine. If you want others to read them, then fix you line width. I
>>gave up about 1/4 of the way through your post because of the bad
>>formatting.
>

> Bull, there is no line length limit on Usenet

I never said there was. What I said was that if your intention is to
communicate with and persuade others, then you would want to present
your argument in the most widely readable format. On Usenet, that
means limiting line length.

> It is an artistic decision!

If you claim your postings to Usenet are "art", then how you format
them is indeed an artistic decision. That seems a bit deluded to me,
but I'm not an artist -- I'm an engineer who does embedded system
design.

--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards Yow! With YOU, I can be
at MYSELF ... We don't NEED
gmail.com Dan Rather ...

[Joel Koltner]

WoolyBully wrote:
> Show me where your "cheap laptop" (or any laptop practically) has gpio
> header or a readily available jtag header.

That's why I said the "cool thing about hte Raspberry Pi is that it's
quite hackable."

On a standard laptop, though, it's no problem to find cheap
USB-connected GPIO cards if you like.

Debugging tools on a PC are good enough that you don't really need a
JTAG connector -- even for Kernel debugging, you just use a second PC
connected via an Ethernet or serial port link.

---Joel

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 09:02:16 +0000, Martin Brown

<|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 04/03/2012 15:51, k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>> On Sun, 04 Mar 2012 10:07:11 +0000, Martin Brown
>> <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 02/03/2012 19:32, Don McKenzie wrote:
>>>>
>
>>>> I may be barking up the wrong tree, but am I one of the few sensing
>>>> something may be very wrong with this deal?
>>>
>>> I think they expect to sell a lot of them and since the opening day took
>>> down both the major UK electronics suppliers websites they could well be
>>> right. It is priced to allow every schoolchild to have one.
>>
>> In many areas, every high school student gets a laptop. It hasn't changed
>> anything outside the school budgets.
>
>The idea in this case stems from academia and the shortage of new
>undergraduates interested in the nuts and bolts of computing.

How does highly integrated, and even *closed*, hardware accomplish that?

>>> I reckon they called in a lot of favours to get it designed for maximum
>>> capability, minimum cost and built for that price. I wish them good luck
>>> with the project. We need to get more youngsters interested in
>>> engineering at school as opposed to soft options "meedja studdis".
>>
>> I don't see how that follows, either. It may entice some latent code monkeys
>> but I don't see how a finished product like this is going to create a
>> significant number of budding engineers. That's a tough one, given the level
>> of integration today.
>
>I agree. I cut my teeth taking apart TTL from failed ICL1900 boards and
>sorting the house codes into 74xx chips to test and build new things.
>These days with tight multilegged surface mount devices you stand no
>chance of getting bits to play with from old scrap boards.

Yep. I started taking apart military stuff to salvage 2N697s and TVs for the
passives.

>>> Brian Cox and Jim Alkalili have already turned round the decline of the
>>> hard sciences. The former making Physics very "cool" at the moment!
>>
>> Never heard of them but it looks cool.
>>
>>>> Have a look at what Tsvetan from Olimex said in a forum thread about it
>>>> here:
>>>> http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4748&PN=1
>>>>
>>>> Anyone have insider information that what I am saying is completely off
>>>> the mark?
>>>> Comments?
>>>>
>>>> Of course, If I am off the mark, this will be more free advertising for
>>>> them. :-)
>>>
>>> I expect there isn't a lot of margin but the price isn't completely
>>> impossible either. Just look at the cheapest PC graphics cards.
>>
>> Amazing.
>>
>>> If it becomes the new BBC Micro it will engage a new generation of
>>> children in direct connection with real electronics and software at a
>>> level where it can be relatively easily understood and played with.
>>
>> I don't see how a canned computer interests anyone in electronics. Software,
>
>We will have to wait and see how it plays out. The BBC micro in its day
>spawned a whole bunch of DIY add-ons as did the ill fated Sinclair QL.

Those weren't closed and certainly weren't highly integrated. This thing just
looks like an appliance. "Don't look behind the curtain."

>> maybe. More script kiddies, sure. I don't see the latter as being
>> particularly useful (in the global economy), though.
>
>The modern PC is just too complicated for children to learn to program
>well and interface to DIY external hardware.

I'm not buying it. It can still be done. I don't see that a modern PC does
much, either, though. OTOH, I don't see that this does *anything*, certainly
less than any number of SDKs. Seems like a Broadcom gimmick.

>I just hope that they have got the software programming toolset for this
>device right. Since Alan Mycroft is an expert in compiler design and
>static code testing there is a sporting chance that it will provide a
>useful environment for teaching computer internals at school.
>
>http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~am21/
>
>I haven't seen one in the flesh yet. But the pedigree of the trustees of
>Raspberry Pi is excellent in terms of computer science skills.

It's *DOOMED*. ;-)

[Don Y]

Hi Keith,

You can buy a *new* laptop for < $300 here (US). And, out of the box,
you can start using it -- for other things besides "tinkering". You
don't have to go hunting for a display, keyboard, disk drive, GB of
memory, network interface, power supply, battery, case, etc.

If you're willing to go for *used*, you can often find a neighbor who
has a sub-GHz machine that you can *have* just for asking. Second
hand stores often sell them for ~$50 (though the batteries in those
usually won't hold a charge).

TV's with HDMI input here tend to be > $100 (I've seen some little
"portable" ones -- 7" dia -- for ~$80) *if* you can find a "small
one" (the emphasis seems to be on very large displays approaching
a kilobuck).

>> (where did you get the grand price?) and keyboard and mouse.
>
> Keyboard 10 bucks mouse probably even cheaper.
>
>> the difference is the
>> laptop will actually do the job without screwing with how to connect
>> it all up without being a tangle of wires all over.

And you have a wider range of choices for using the laptop. When you
are done "playing" with your SBC, can you use it to send email?
Surf the web? Balance your checkbook? How many choices will you
have for video capture devices? Motor controllers? Touch panel?
Pen interface? etc.

If you are going to do real *hardware* tinkering, an SBC can be
a win. But, if all you are going to do is slap together some
black boxes and write "scripts" to drive them, you might find
the toy losing its appeal in short order.

I curse myself for discarding several older laptops with integrated
power supplies (no external brick) as they would have been ideal
for "little projects", in hindsight. :<

I'm not saying there's not a market for this device. Rather, that
I think many folks buying it will *play* with it for a while and then
set it on a shelf. I've got a cute little CerfCube sitting on the
shelf here (along with an assortment of other SBC-ish devices).
For its day, a very nice little design in a tiny little *package*.
Two 10/100 NIC's, mini-PCI, two serial, expansion port, Linux, build
tools, and it's own little 2"x2"x2" case! At the time, I thought I
would use it for "network services", here (DNS, TFTP, font server,
time server, firewall, etc.).

But, by the time I looked at what I would need to add (secondary
storage, even *more* NIC's, etc.) it was easier just to grab swomething
that I could plug COTS hardware and software into.

How many folks do you know who've built MythTV boxes? How many
still actually *use* them??

[Grant Edwards]

On 2012-03-05, k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz <k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 09:02:16 +0000, Martin Brown
><|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On 04/03/2012 15:51, k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>>> On Sun, 04 Mar 2012 10:07:11 +0000, Martin Brown
>>> <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 02/03/2012 19:32, Don McKenzie wrote:
>>>>>
>>
>>>>> I may be barking up the wrong tree, but am I one of the few sensing
>>>>> something may be very wrong with this deal?
>>>>
>>>> I think they expect to sell a lot of them and since the opening day took
>>>> down both the major UK electronics suppliers websites they could well be
>>>> right. It is priced to allow every schoolchild to have one.
>>>
>>> In many areas, every high school student gets a laptop. It hasn't changed
>>> anything outside the school budgets.
>>
>>The idea in this case stems from academia and the shortage of new
>>undergraduates interested in the nuts and bolts of computing.
>
> How does highly integrated, and even *closed*, hardware accomplish that?

According to what I've read, the point is to use the RPi as something
to which one can "bolt-on" hardware which you can then play with by
writing software to run on the RPi.

>>We will have to wait and see how it plays out. The BBC micro in its day
>>spawned a whole bunch of DIY add-ons as did the ill fated Sinclair QL.
>
> Those weren't closed and certainly weren't highly integrated. This thing just
> looks like an appliance.

An appliance with a GPIO header, which I presume is documented and
accessible to the user. I would have preferred an 8-bit or 16-bit
expansion bus with a couple pre-decoded chip-select lines as well.

>>http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~am21/
>>
>>I haven't seen one in the flesh yet. But the pedigree of the trustees of
>>Raspberry Pi is excellent in terms of computer science skills.
>
> It's *DOOMED*. ;-)

Yea, I've got a few stories about CS majors who tried to get a little
too close to the hardware...

--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards Yow! Clear the laundromat!!
at This whirl-o-matic just had
gmail.com a nuclear meltdown!!

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

On Mon, 5 Mar 2012 19:16:35 +0000 (UTC), Grant Edwards
<inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>On 2012-03-05, k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz <k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
>> On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 09:02:16 +0000, Martin Brown
>><|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>On 04/03/2012 15:51, k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 04 Mar 2012 10:07:11 +0000, Martin Brown
>>>> <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 02/03/2012 19:32, Don McKenzie wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>> I may be barking up the wrong tree, but am I one of the few sensing
>>>>>> something may be very wrong with this deal?
>>>>>
>>>>> I think they expect to sell a lot of them and since the opening day took
>>>>> down both the major UK electronics suppliers websites they could well be
>>>>> right. It is priced to allow every schoolchild to have one.
>>>>
>>>> In many areas, every high school student gets a laptop. It hasn't changed
>>>> anything outside the school budgets.
>>>
>>>The idea in this case stems from academia and the shortage of new
>>>undergraduates interested in the nuts and bolts of computing.
>>
>> How does highly integrated, and even *closed*, hardware accomplish that?
>
>According to what I've read, the point is to use the RPi as something
>to which one can "bolt-on" hardware which you can then play with by
>writing software to run on the RPi.

So it is a script-kiddy toy. You can do that with a PC.

>>>We will have to wait and see how it plays out. The BBC micro in its day
>>>spawned a whole bunch of DIY add-ons as did the ill fated Sinclair QL.
>>
>> Those weren't closed and certainly weren't highly integrated. This thing just
>> looks like an appliance.
>
>
>An appliance with a GPIO header, which I presume is documented and
>accessible to the user. I would have preferred an 8-bit or 16-bit
>expansion bus with a couple pre-decoded chip-select lines as well.

USB to whatever. <yawn>

>>>http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~am21/
>>>
>>>I haven't seen one in the flesh yet. But the pedigree of the trustees of
>>>Raspberry Pi is excellent in terms of computer science skills.
>>
>> It's *DOOMED*. ;-)
>
>Yea, I've got a few stories about CS majors who tried to get a little
>too close to the hardware...

I love it when they try to do VHDL. ;-)

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Mon, 5 Mar 2012 15:11:37 +0000 (UTC)) it happened Grant
Edwards <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <jj2l38$nre$1...@reader1.panix.com>:

>On 2012-03-05, Jan Panteltje <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>>>> (ps. Please fix your line width)
>>>>
>>>> seems fine to me.
>>>
>>>I guess as long as your posts are intended only for yourself, that's
>>>fine. If you want others to read them, then fix you line width. I
>>>gave up about 1/4 of the way through your post because of the bad
>>>formatting.
>>
>> Bull, there is no line length limit on Usenet
>
>I never said there was. What I said was that if your intention is to
>communicate with and persuade others, then you would want to present
>your argument in the most widely readable format. On Usenet, that
>means limiting line length.
>
>> It is an artistic decision!
>
>If you claim your postings to Usenet are "art", then how you format
>them is indeed an artistic decision.

Writing is an art, at least some writing,
My diagrams are fine art too.

> That seems a bit deluded to me,

Beauty is in the beholders eye,

>but I'm not an artist -- I'm an engineer who does embedded system
>design.

Whatever, for for example a bi tof ASCII art the unlimited possibility of the line length is a relief


----^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^------
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
=== === === === === === === === === === === === === === === === ===
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
/// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// ----^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^------

I love this editor with rectangle mode.
Took a few seconds to draw this.

[keithr]

So what is the use then of all the pic boards, Arduino etc, by your
logic we don't need any of them just use cheap laptops.

[keithr]

AFAIK, the only thing "Closed" about the Pi is the graphics processor
which has to be access through and API to a closed blob.

>>> maybe. More script kiddies, sure. I don't see the latter as being
>>> particularly useful (in the global economy), though.
>>
>> The modern PC is just too complicated for children to learn to program
>> well and interface to DIY external hardware.
>
> I'm not buying it. It can still be done. I don't see that a modern PC does
> much, either, though. OTOH, I don't see that this does *anything*, certainly
> less than any number of SDKs. Seems like a Broadcom gimmick.
>
>> I just hope that they have got the software programming toolset for this
>> device right. Since Alan Mycroft is an expert in compiler design and
>> static code testing there is a sporting chance that it will provide a
>> useful environment for teaching computer internals at school.
>>
>> http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~am21/
>>
>> I haven't seen one in the flesh yet. But the pedigree of the trustees of
>> Raspberry Pi is excellent in terms of computer science skills.
>
> It's *DOOMED*. ;-)

It seems to me that there is a good deal of fear and loathing about the
Pi from entrenched interests.

[Don Y]

Hi Keith,

On 3/5/2012 1:45 PM, keithr wrote:
> On 6/03/2012 5:33 AM, Don Y wrote:

[much elided]

I see "little boards" *trying* to address a few markets:
- "one off" projects where the cost of laying out your
own board (or the expertise required to do so) is not
within your means. But, note that you have to be able
to buy or build whatever "extra" hardware is needed!
- "low volume" production -- for similar reasons as above.
Here, you *might* be able/willing to "layout a small board"
for I/O that you can't get COTS
- "high markup" production where you can afford the overhead
(in components and cost) of a "less than optimal" solution
(*and* can accept everything that comes with that!)
- "prototypes"/"proof of principle" where you are just
throwing something together for a dog-and-pony and have
no plans for the SBC *after* that
- "reference design" alternatives for developers exploring
new processors but not wanting to pay for a manufacturer's
"kitchen sink" reference design that tries to address
every conceivable application
- "tinkerers" who want a building block that they can play
with. I.e., the sort of person who installs his own
"stereo" in his *car*
- "tinker wannabes" who *think* they could use this to "do
<whatever>" -- but, who often don't have enough of a
self-starting attitude to actually follow through (without
peers engaging in the same sort of activity). The low
"cost of admission" is seen as "not prohibitive"... "It's
only $50..." so they write the check (charge), fondle the
device when it arrives, then end up putting it aside

I know several folks holding Arduino's in this last category.
These are the folks that are *claimed* to be targeted by this
particular device. Time will tell, a year from now, how many
of those devices are actually in use vs. "never powered up".

The "foundation" could do everyone a service and conduct a poll
a year from now to see how -- or *if* -- the devices were
actually received. I suspect such a poll would be biased
towards "higher usage" than "never powered up" as the level
of enthusiasm associated with "higher usage" would motivate
those folks to respond, more.

If a "tinker wannabe" isn't motivated to "try <whatever>" using
the laptop/desktop/surplus PC that he already has (which can just
as easily run Linux, has a keyboard, has a video display, has a
disk drive, has...), then, IME, he/she may BUY such a "toy"
but never actually invest the time to *use* it (since there
is a far higher hurdle to use it than there would be to
repurposing a laptop/desktop)

In my case, I use SBC's like this for prototype/PoP's *or*
to get an idea for how a particular CPU performs. In the days
before accurate simulators, often the only way to get a
*real* feel for performance was to run real code on real
hardware and *time* it: "Gee, with X wait states on program
memory and Y wait states on data memory, the routine took
Z seconds to execute. That compares favorably/unfavorably
to this *other* CPU for constant memory dollars/constant
CPU dollars/constant system cost/etc."

I, personally, wouldn't design something like that into a
product simply because I'd have to design the I/O's, anyway,
so what does a "CPU on a board" buy me (besides another
sole source supplier)?

Similarly, I had need (recently) for a "handful" of low power
SBC's for "control terminals" in the house. Should I buy *this*
and figure out what else I have to add to it and how I have
to modify the kernel to support those changes? Or, just put
*everything* on a board and "build three of them"?

YMMV

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

I admit that I haven't studied this thing in detail (I do hardware not
software, if I can help it) but it seemed to me that the whole middleware
slice was closed, as well as the hardware platform itself. Specs? What
specs?

>>>> maybe. More script kiddies, sure. I don't see the latter as being
>>>> particularly useful (in the global economy), though.
>>>
>>> The modern PC is just too complicated for children to learn to program
>>> well and interface to DIY external hardware.
>>
>> I'm not buying it. It can still be done. I don't see that a modern PC does
>> much, either, though. OTOH, I don't see that this does *anything*, certainly
>> less than any number of SDKs. Seems like a Broadcom gimmick.
>>
>>> I just hope that they have got the software programming toolset for this
>>> device right. Since Alan Mycroft is an expert in compiler design and
>>> static code testing there is a sporting chance that it will provide a
>>> useful environment for teaching computer internals at school.
>>>
>>> http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~am21/
>>>
>>> I haven't seen one in the flesh yet. But the pedigree of the trustees of
>>> Raspberry Pi is excellent in terms of computer science skills.
>>
>> It's *DOOMED*. ;-)
>
>It seems to me that there is a good deal of fear and loathing about the
>Pi from entrenched interests.

Me? Fear and loathing? No, disappointment. I'd *love* to see something that
would get kids interested in electronics again. I'm close enough to
retirement that they're not a threat to my lunch (which has benefited
immensely from the lack of kids' hardware skills). ;-)

[F Murtz]

it might have taken a few seconds,what is it?

[Dennis]

"Don McKenzie" <5...@2.5A> wrote in message
news:9ritit...@mid.individual.net...

Your apology is accepted Don. Please try not to repeat the mistake in the
future as it causes great inconvenience for the pedants. Thank you.

[WoolyBully]

On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 20:13:39 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>Whatever, for for example a bi tof

SNIPPED retarded horseshit from the total Usenet retard JanPan.

You are about as retarded as a human can possibly get.

The only art you could produce is what would splatter on the wall as a
7mm slug plows through your skull and out the back side.

That is, IF it could actually make it through that fucking bone headed
skull.

Your brain couldn't possibly weigh more than 2 grams.

U S E N E T IS a TEXT forum. There is no ART, you fucking retard, AND
the LINE LENGTHS ARE regulated by those of us who are civil.


If we were at the bar, your ass would be out back, in the dumpster,
covered in your own blood. You are a goddamned retard, and a dumbfuck
like you needs his ass kicked.

[WoolyBully]

On Tue, 6 Mar 2012 10:29:24 +0800, "Dennis" <jon....@ithemorgue.com>
wrote:

>
>"Don McKenzie" <5...@2.5A> wrote in message
>news:9ritit...@mid.individual.net...
>> On 05-Mar-12 2:35 PM, WoolyBully wrote:

>> Sorry all, somewhere between all the tbird version updates from V3 to V10
>> in very quick time, my Mailnews.wraplength was reset from 72 to 120.
>>
>> All should be well now.
>>
>> Cheers Don...
>>

Well, if you (Don) are not the asshole who has been declaring that WE
need to set it on "our end", I am sorry for jumping on you.


Jan gets ZERO mercy. That fuckhead is flat fucking retarded!

>> ====================
>>
>> --
>> Don McKenzie
>>
>> Dontronics: http://www.dontronics-shop.com/
>>
>> DuinoMite the PIC32 $35 Basic Computer-MicroController
>> http://www.dontronics-shop.com/the-maximite-computer.html
>> Just add a VGA monitor or TV, and PS2 Keyboard.
>> Arduino Shield, Programmed in Basic, or C.
>
>
>Your apology is accepted Don. Please try not to repeat the mistake in the
>future as it causes great inconvenience for the pedants. Thank you.
>

It isn't about being a pedant, you fucking retard.

Why don't you do some basic boning up on this forum you interlope
yourself into, if you think those of us who want it the way it has been
for years are 'pedants'. Fuck you, idiot.

Now, if only we could cull the cross posting retards as well.

[keithr]

http://elinux.org/RPi_Hardware
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raspberry_Pi
http://www.broadcom.com/products/BCM2835
http://dmkenr5gtnd8f.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/BCM2835-ARM-Peripherals.pdf
http://www.smsc.com/index.php?tid=300&pid=135
http://www.hynix.com/products/mobile/view.jsp?info.ramKind=28&info.serialNo=H9TKNNN2GDMPLR&posMap=MobileDDR2

You should find something there, all it takes is to look.

>>>>> maybe. More script kiddies, sure. I don't see the latter as being
>>>>> particularly useful (in the global economy), though.
>>>>
>>>> The modern PC is just too complicated for children to learn to program
>>>> well and interface to DIY external hardware.
>>>
>>> I'm not buying it. It can still be done. I don't see that a modern PC does
>>> much, either, though. OTOH, I don't see that this does *anything*, certainly
>>> less than any number of SDKs. Seems like a Broadcom gimmick.
>>>
>>>> I just hope that they have got the software programming toolset for this
>>>> device right. Since Alan Mycroft is an expert in compiler design and
>>>> static code testing there is a sporting chance that it will provide a
>>>> useful environment for teaching computer internals at school.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~am21/
>>>>
>>>> I haven't seen one in the flesh yet. But the pedigree of the trustees of
>>>> Raspberry Pi is excellent in terms of computer science skills.
>>>
>>> It's *DOOMED*. ;-)
>>
>> It seems to me that there is a good deal of fear and loathing about the
>> Pi from entrenched interests.
>
> Me? Fear and loathing? No, disappointment. I'd *love* to see something that
> would get kids interested in electronics again. I'm close enough to
> retirement that they're not a threat to my lunch (which has benefited
> immensely from the lack of kids' hardware skills). ;-)

Not necessarily you, but there are several posters in this thread who
have a vested interest is selling similar products, and they seem to be
the ones questioning the project.

[keithr]

On 4/03/2012 1:30 PM, keithr wrote:
> On 3/03/2012 9:21 AM, Don McKenzie wrote:
>> On 03-Mar-12 9:11 AM, geoff wrote:
>>
>>> How much do you image the real manufacturing cost of, say, an Android
>>> smartphone is ?
>>>
>>> geoff
>>
>> I would imagine it could be in the range of 5% to 20% of the retail
>> price, but it must reach the wholesaler at a price he can make a living
>> out of it, otherwise he wouldn't be in business.
>>
>> Cheers Don...
>>
>> =========================
>>
>>
> RS Australia has it listed at $50, which is probably about what you'd
> have to pay to get a $35 item from the UK including shipping.
>
> I will certainly get one as soon as I can, I'd like to see whether it
> can run apache as a home web server and home automation machine.
>
> A full Linux machine for $50 is disruptive technology, if it does
> perform as the hype suggests, I see a lot of uses for it, and probably a
> flood of imitators.
>
> The PIC and Arduino boards certainly have their uses, but horse for
> courses.

I see that the price on the RS Australia site has dropped to $A38.00

[Don Y]

I would think those folks would *benefit* from the stated goal of
wanting to promote interest in "tinkering"!

[Martin Brown]

On 05/03/2012 18:27, k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 09:02:16 +0000, Martin Brown
> <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 04/03/2012 15:51, k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>>> On Sun, 04 Mar 2012 10:07:11 +0000, Martin Brown
>>> <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 02/03/2012 19:32, Don McKenzie wrote:
>>>>>
>>
>>>>> I may be barking up the wrong tree, but am I one of the few sensing
>>>>> something may be very wrong with this deal?
>>>>
>>>> I think they expect to sell a lot of them and since the opening day took
>>>> down both the major UK electronics suppliers websites they could well be
>>>> right. It is priced to allow every schoolchild to have one.
>>>
>>> In many areas, every high school student gets a laptop. It hasn't changed
>>> anything outside the school budgets.
>>
>> The idea in this case stems from academia and the shortage of new
>> undergraduates interested in the nuts and bolts of computing.
>
> How does highly integrated, and even *closed*, hardware accomplish that?

Until I see one in the flesh I would prefer not to comment. My initial
understanding is that it is not entirely closed and it has been designed
to make it attractive to youngsters. Time will tell how good a job
Raspberry Pi have done on this. I have to say their Charity returns
suggest that like all UK stuff this has been done on a shoe string
budget by the main players calling in favours from everywhere.

http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/Showcharity/RegisterOfCharities/CharityWithoutPartB.aspx?RegisteredCharityNumber=1129409&SubsidiaryNumber=0

They are certainly not living high on the hog with an annual income of
only £165 in 2010.

>>>> If it becomes the new BBC Micro it will engage a new generation of
>>>> children in direct connection with real electronics and software at a
>>>> level where it can be relatively easily understood and played with.
>>>
>>> I don't see how a canned computer interests anyone in electronics. Software,
>>
>> We will have to wait and see how it plays out. The BBC micro in its day
>> spawned a whole bunch of DIY add-ons as did the ill fated Sinclair QL.
>
> Those weren't closed and certainly weren't highly integrated. This thing just
> looks like an appliance. "Don't look behind the curtain."

We will just have to wait and see. I hope they have got it right
according to their aims to make computing interesting as a subject in
schools.

>
>>> maybe. More script kiddies, sure. I don't see the latter as being
>>> particularly useful (in the global economy), though.
>>
>> The modern PC is just too complicated for children to learn to program
>> well and interface to DIY external hardware.
>
> I'm not buying it. It can still be done. I don't see that a modern PC does
> much, either, though. OTOH, I don't see that this does *anything*, certainly
> less than any number of SDKs. Seems like a Broadcom gimmick.

I think that is unfair. Broadcom have almost certainly put up the money
to make this thing possible both in terms of fabrication and manufacture
with a target market of education. I think it is worth a try. Chemistry
and physics have been completely emasculated in schools with no
"interesting" experiments permitted any more by the draconian health and
safety culture and legions of no-win no-fee lawyers.

>
>> I just hope that they have got the software programming toolset for this
>> device right. Since Alan Mycroft is an expert in compiler design and
>> static code testing there is a sporting chance that it will provide a
>> useful environment for teaching computer internals at school.
>>
>> http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~am21/
>>
>> I haven't seen one in the flesh yet. But the pedigree of the trustees of
>> Raspberry Pi is excellent in terms of computer science skills.
>
> It's *DOOMED*. ;-)

No. These are the good guys responsible for verifiable hardware silicon
compiler technologies and some other *very* good stuff. Braben & Bell
wrote Elite which included some cunning hidden line removal tricks so
that flight simulator guys Evans & Sutherland met them on a UK visit.

The pedigree of the two guys that I have previously known suggests to me
that this thing might be very good for teaching in schools and to get
kids making programs for themselves at home. Depends really how easy
they have made it to do sprites and other game components.

The world at the moment is crazy. We should have the latest toolsets
with full static testing and dataflow analysis used for teaching so that
the next generation learn good habits. Instead the appropriate
technologies for static error detection are only available to major
corporate players at vastly inflated prices and ignored by engineers who
have already picked up too many bad habits to use them :(

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Tue, 06 Mar 2012 12:34:02 +1100) it happened F Murtz
<hag...@hotmail.com> wrote in
<nQd5r.4198$%E2....@viwinnwfe01.internal.bigpond.com>:

>it might have taken a few seconds,what is it?

Lowpass :-)

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Tue, 06 Mar 2012 17:34:37 +1100) it happened keithr
<ke...@nowhere.com.au> wrote in <4f55affe$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au>:

>>> It seems to me that there is a good deal of fear and loathing about the
>>> Pi from entrenched interests.
>>
>> Me? Fear and loathing? No, disappointment. I'd *love* to see something that
>> would get kids interested in electronics again. I'm close enough to
>> retirement that they're not a threat to my lunch (which has benefited
>> immensely from the lack of kids' hardware skills). ;-)
>
>Not necessarily you, but there are several posters in this thread who
>have a vested interest is selling similar products, and they seem to be
>the ones questioning the project.

I dunno.
I am retired, and am very critical of this so called 'educational' thing.
There is no educational aspect in it any where.

Some closed source toy with closed binary drivers, hardly any I/O,
missing keyboard, missing power supply, and missing a good book that explains
computahs, electronics basics, programming basics, no display, not even
a decent housing, how long will it live with 'kids' who put it on the table
next to the metal ballpen or whatever, static discharges from rubber shoes,
It is all hype.
Press will publish any release you send them, including flying cars
and what not.
So what age group is this targeted at?
Do they even have a soldering iron, some scope? You NEED that.
And the youngsters that DO have access to that stuff will likely get a board
with chips that have full documentation so they can get the maximum out of their toy.
This strawberry pie has had far too much media exposure,

The Microchip PICs were and are extremely popular with the younger generation
because they have decent datasheets, are easily programmable, and
are available almost everywhere locally.
As Don pointed out there are small boards with PICs too that run Linux for those
that want that (for many projects you do not need a top heavy multitasker).
PICs are cheap too.
Look here for some projects I did with PICs:
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html
Some are not so simple, some if not all require a PC, if only for programming.

Now let's look at the strawberry or whatever cake.
That Broadcom chip is actually a media player chip.
If you just install Linux and perhaps run the X server, then forget about the media player
aspect, because ***X runs at a fixed H and V resolution***.
Let's get a bit technical, after all this is a design group, many Linux enthusiast are here
too.
I recorded (with Linux and MY software) last night some DVB-S2 HD movie from Germany ZDF
via satellite:
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 16006144000 Mar 6 00:58 spy_game_2001_german.ts

Now let's look at the format this is transmitted in, and what is in there:
panteltje10: /video/satellite # mediainfo spy_game_2001_german.ts
General
ID : 3F3
Complete name : spy_game_2001_german.ts
Format : MPEG-TS
File size : 14.9 GiB
Duration : 2h 41mn
Overall bit rate : 13.2 Mbps

Video
ID : 6110 (0x17DE)
Menu ID : 11110 (0x2B66)
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : Main@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 5 frames
Duration : 2h 41mn
Bit rate : 11.2 Mbps
Width : 1 280 pixels
Height : 720 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16/9
Frame rate : 50.000 fps
Resolution : 24 bits
Colorimetry : 4:2:0
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.244
Stream size : 12.6 GiB (85%)

Audio #1
ID : 6120 (0x17E8)
Menu ID : 11110 (0x2B66)
Format : MPEG Audio
Format version : Version 1
Format profile : Layer 2
Duration : 2h 41mn
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 256 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Resolution : 16 bits
Video delay : -1s 263ms
Stream size : 295 MiB (2%)
Language : German

Audio #2
ID : 6121 (0x17E9)
Menu ID : 11110 (0x2B66)
Format : MPEG Audio
Format version : Version 1
Format profile : Layer 2
uration : 2h 41mn
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 192 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Resolution : 16 bits
Video delay : -1s 216ms
Stream size : 221 MiB (1%)
Language : qaa

Text #1
ID : 6130 (0x17F2)
Menu ID : 11110 (0x2B66)
Format : Teletext
Language : German

Text #2
ID : 6131 (0x17F3)
Menu ID : 11110 (0x2B66)
Format : DVB Subtitles
Language : German

Menu
ID : 6100 (0x17D4)
Menu ID : 11110 (0x2B66)
List : 6110 (0x17DE) (AVC) / 6120 (0x17E8) (MPEG Audio, deu) / 6121 (0x17E9) (MPEG Audio, mis) / 6122 (0x17EA) (AC-3, deu) / 6123 (0x17EB) (MPEG Audio, qaa) / 6130 (0x17F2) (Teletext, deu) / 6131 (0x17F3) (DVB Subtitles, deu) / 6170 (0x181A) ()
Language : / deu / mis / deu / qaa / deu / deu /

------------------------------------
That is the transport stream for this transmission.
You will notice (perhaps) that the format is 1280 x 720 @ 50 fps progressive.
If you want to play this in X with for example mplayer, EVEN if it has all the codecs,
then theoretically the X server would have to refresh frames as 50 Hz IN SYNC with the video.
That is for a MEDIAPLAYER, and that is one thing they claim it can do.
Unfortunately X does NOT sync to the video framerate, so it will NORMALLY tare frames
and drop frames at random, even if you add a modeline for 50 Hz.
The fact with MEDIAPLAYER chips is that the CHIP does the grabbing of the next frame from memory, decodes it,
displays it, and then grabs the next frame.
I am sure this chip can do that, but can the standard Linux that comes with this thing
support that feature?
To give some idea what the actual problem is here, read this thread please:
http://linuxtv.org/pipermail/vdr/2008-July/017347.html

So, as far as I can see, and that is not far in this case as most of that stuff is closed
source, as a MEDIAPLAYER this thing is not very usable.
And you cannot FIX it because it is closed source.
It seems to come with Fedora Linux, now that is RatHead (had to drop that one on you) Linux,
and it will be incompatible with the rest of the universe by design anyways,
I'd love to be proven wrong, but the above issue make it a nono for me,
it already is a nono for the simple fact that PICs are more suited for small projects,
can be programmed in asm, close to the hardware, and then are faster, boot faster,
more reliable than Linux for simple control operations like, as some person mentioned,
controlling things around the house or some robotics or what not.

The ONLY reason I would want a strawberry cake would be a REAL multimedia player,
or if it actually had WiFi.., as that would add to the spectrum of what you can
build in a few days, but I already have several Linux boxes, some far more advanced
than that hype thingy, so,
And then to teach kids about electronics, maybe Winfield's The Art of Electronics is a bit
too high a level for them to start, give them some transistors and an Ohm meter,
some batteries, LEDs, the works.
To teach them about PROGRAMMING give them a laptop or PC.
maybe the OLPC.

[Nico Coesel]

keithr <ke...@nowhere.com.au> wrote:

>On 6/03/2012 11:50 AM, k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>> On Tue, 06 Mar 2012 07:50:15 +1100, keithr<ke...@nowhere.com.au> wrote:
>>
>>> On 6/03/2012 5:27 AM, k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 09:02:16 +0000, Martin Brown
>>>> <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 04/03/2012 15:51, k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 04 Mar 2012 10:07:11 +0000, Martin Brown
>>>>>> <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 02/03/2012 19:32, Don McKenzie wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I may be barking up the wrong tree, but am I one of the few sensing
>>>>>>>> something may be very wrong with this deal?

>>> AFAIK, the only thing "Closed" about the Pi is the graphics processor
>>> which has to be access through and API to a closed blob.
>>
>> I admit that I haven't studied this thing in detail (I do hardware not
>> software, if I can help it) but it seemed to me that the whole middleware
>> slice was closed, as well as the hardware platform itself. Specs? What
>> specs?
>

>http://dmkenr5gtnd8f.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/BCM2835-ARM-Peripherals.pdf

AFAIK this document is useless because its far from complete.

>>> It seems to me that there is a good deal of fear and loathing about the
>>> Pi from entrenched interests.
>>
>> Me? Fear and loathing? No, disappointment. I'd *love* to see something that
>> would get kids interested in electronics again. I'm close enough to
>> retirement that they're not a threat to my lunch (which has benefited
>> immensely from the lack of kids' hardware skills). ;-)
>
>Not necessarily you, but there are several posters in this thread who
>have a vested interest is selling similar products, and they seem to be
>the ones questioning the project.

Maybe its the people that create hardware & software for SoC based
systems for a living and know about the pitfalls? In my experience
proper documentation is key to be able to do something usefull with a
SoC. So far the RP can run Linux. But what if you want to control
something with it and need to write your own drivers to do that?

--
Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply
indicates you are not using the right tools...
nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
--------------------------------------------------------------

[FatBytestard]

On Tue, 06 Mar 2012 11:16:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:


>And then to teach kids about electronics, maybe Winfield's The Art of Electronics is a bit
>too high a level for them to start, give them some transistors and an Ohm meter,
>some batteries, LEDs, the works.
>To teach them about PROGRAMMING give them a laptop or PC.
>maybe the OLPC.
>
>

But do NOT teach them the stupid term "computah".

[David Brown]

On 06/03/2012 10:21, Martin Brown wrote:

> No. These are the good guys responsible for verifiable hardware silicon
> compiler technologies and some other *very* good stuff. Braben & Bell
> wrote Elite which included some cunning hidden line removal tricks so
> that flight simulator guys Evans & Sutherland met them on a UK visit.
>

One of my planned uses of the Pi (once I finally get one) is to play
Oolite on a big TV (for those that don't know, Oolite is the modern
descendant of Elite, which was developed for the original BBC computers).

I don't know how much the Pi will be useful for teaching kids
programming or other computing, but I think that even if you use it for
games or a media player, it will still raise an awareness that the world
of computing is not limited to PC's and windows. I don't see it
inspiring millions of kids to program - but if it inspires some to look
at what's inside a computer, and what is needed to put one together,
then that's good.

[rickman]

On Mar 5, 11:08 pm, WoolyBully <WoolyBu...@arcticicemasses.org> wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 20:13:39 GMT, Jan Panteltje
>

Are you having a bad day?

Rick

[Nico Coesel]

David Brown <da...@westcontrol.removethisbit.com> wrote:

>On 06/03/2012 10:21, Martin Brown wrote:
>
>> No. These are the good guys responsible for verifiable hardware silicon
>> compiler technologies and some other *very* good stuff. Braben & Bell
>> wrote Elite which included some cunning hidden line removal tricks so
>> that flight simulator guys Evans & Sutherland met them on a UK visit.
>>
>
>One of my planned uses of the Pi (once I finally get one) is to play
>Oolite on a big TV (for those that don't know, Oolite is the modern
>descendant of Elite, which was developed for the original BBC computers).
>
>I don't know how much the Pi will be useful for teaching kids
>programming or other computing, but I think that even if you use it for

Nowadays a lot of games use scripting. My 10 year old son is already
working on scripts written in Lua to program some intelligence in
items he created in an online game where you can build your own
virtual world.

I don't know what to think of it but I guess its better than just
watching TV.

[David Brown]

On 06/03/2012 15:37, Nico Coesel wrote:
> David Brown<da...@westcontrol.removethisbit.com> wrote:
>
>> On 06/03/2012 10:21, Martin Brown wrote:
>>
>>> No. These are the good guys responsible for verifiable hardware silicon

>>> compiler technologies and some other *very* good stuff. Braben& Bell

>>> wrote Elite which included some cunning hidden line removal tricks so

>>> that flight simulator guys Evans& Sutherland met them on a UK visit.

>>>
>>
>> One of my planned uses of the Pi (once I finally get one) is to play
>> Oolite on a big TV (for those that don't know, Oolite is the modern
>> descendant of Elite, which was developed for the original BBC computers).
>>
>> I don't know how much the Pi will be useful for teaching kids
>> programming or other computing, but I think that even if you use it for
>
> Nowadays a lot of games use scripting. My 10 year old son is already
> working on scripts written in Lua to program some intelligence in
> items he created in an online game where you can build your own
> virtual world.
>
> I don't know what to think of it but I guess its better than just
> watching TV.
>

Absolutely.

Lua is a good language to build into embedded systems too - I'm looking
at this for a new project I'm working on: <http://www.eluaproject.net/>

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Wed, 07 Mar 2012 00:14:29 +1100) it happened Chris Baird
<ab...@brushtail.apana.org.au> wrote in
<uf4nu1k...@brushtail.apana.org.au>:

> > The Microchip PICs were and are extremely popular with the younger

> > generation [..]
>
>I was waiting for someone to bring this up...
>
>They Has Hell Weren't.
>
>As someone who was of the 'younger generation' when the PICs and Stamps
>came out, I can tell you they were never seriously interesting to us.
>No, the excited approvals of a hand-held grandkid doesn't count-- we're
>talking about the self-taught 10-14 year-olds. Sure the chips were
>cheap(er)-- the programmers weren't,

That is bull.
Parports were common in those days,
http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/noppp/
I added some 10 cent parts to make i tsuitable to program PIC18
http://127.0.0.1/panteltje/pic/jppp18/

There are very few PICless people posting here.
the small PICs should be programmed in asm (16F84 was very popular).
Kids did it all the time.

There are some who cannot program and nveer will learn,
those run things like eclipse and java today and are responsible for the slow bloat of the world.
They look down on teh littel cute micros.
Learn to work with the tools you have, the 8051 was Harvard too,
found in almost everything,
There was also the 8052 AH BASIC, a 8051 with BASIC in ROM..
Was not a very good basic, but I still have a box with that that I build in the eighties.

You sound like a C++ or java cripple.

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Tue, 06 Mar 2012 16:31:55 GMT) it happened Jan Panteltje
<pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote in <jj5e5v$cho$1...@news.albasani.net>:

>On a sunny day (Wed, 07 Mar 2012 00:14:29 +1100) it happened Chris Baird
><ab...@brushtail.apana.org.au> wrote in
><uf4nu1k...@brushtail.apana.org.au>:
>
>> > The Microchip PICs were and are extremely popular with the younger
>> > generation [..]
>>
>>I was waiting for someone to bring this up...
>>
>>They Has Hell Weren't.
>>
>>As someone who was of the 'younger generation' when the PICs and Stamps
>>came out, I can tell you they were never seriously interesting to us.
>>No, the excited approvals of a hand-held grandkid doesn't count-- we're
>>talking about the self-taught 10-14 year-olds. Sure the chips were
>>cheap(er)-- the programmers weren't,
>
>That is bull.
>Parports were common in those days,
> http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/noppp/
>I added some 10 cent parts to make i tsuitable to program PIC18
> http://127.0.0.1/panteltje/pic/jppp18/

Or if you are further away:
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/jppp18/
hehe

[Nico Coesel]

That is a very interesting link! Now that is something which has a
potential educational value.

[Joel Koltner]

k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
> Me? Fear and loathing? No, disappointment. I'd *love* to see something that
> would get kids interested in electronics again. I'm close enough to
> retirement that they're not a threat to my lunch (which has benefited
> immensely from the lack of kids' hardware skills). ;-)

Are you still fixing audio interface transformers and debugging TI's DSP
serial port DMA and what-not? Or have you moved on to a different
employer by now?

[Joel Koltner]

David Brown wrote:
> I don't know how much the Pi will be useful for teaching kids
> programming or other computing, but I think that even if you use it for
> games or a media player, it will still raise an awareness that the world
> of computing is not limited to PC's and windows.

Umm... haven't tablet PCs (ARM-based Androids and iPads) largely already
done this?

I mean, I *think* even the most non-technically-savvy kid today knows
that "Android is not the iPad OS is not Windows is not the Mac OS?" :-)

[Hans-Bernhard Bröker]

On 06.03.2012 05:08, WoolyBully wrote:

> SNIPPED retarded horseshit

[...lots of rubbish elided...]

Like you, of all people, were the one to judge on such matters.
Particularly since just about all of the horseshit in this entire thread
is in what, for lack of a better term, we'll call your contribution to it.

PLONK.

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

Just an AlwaysWrong day.

[David Brown]

I hope I didn't accidentally write something helpful and informative
here. Maybe I should add a gratuitous insult to fit in with the spirit
of the rest of the thread. :-)

[WoolyBully]

On Tue, 6 Mar 2012 05:58:01 -0800 (PST), rickman <gnu...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Are you able to leave here, and go fuck off and die?

[Bart!]

The only thing more retarded than a twit who 'chimes in' with a
pathetic, jack-assed remark, but ZERO content, is a retard who announces
his filter file edit sessions, as if there is a single soul here who
gives a fat flying fuck what you do with your fucking filter, or when,
you fucking RETARD!

Dumbfucks like you are the rubbish.