OT: Rubber disintegration on Microsoft Bluetooth mouse

[Joerg]

Folks,

Got a Microsoft Bluetooth Mouse 5000, built in 2008 according to
sticker. Just grabbed it and it stuck to my thumb. Eeeuw. The top
surface of the rubber on its sides has started that dreaded dissolving
process that you sometimes see in cheap Chinese stuff. Like with yard
shovel handles et cetera. But is this supposed to happen on a Microsoft
brand name product? Anyone know a fix for that mouse?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[Jim Thompson]

On Sat, 10 Aug 2013 16:00:43 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

>Folks,
>
>Got a Microsoft Bluetooth Mouse 5000, built in 2008 according to
>sticker. Just grabbed it and it stuck to my thumb. Eeeuw. The top
>surface of the rubber on its sides has started that dreaded dissolving
>process that you sometimes see in cheap Chinese stuff. Like with yard
>shovel handles et cetera. But is this supposed to happen on a Microsoft
>brand name product? Anyone know a fix for that mouse?

Buy a new one ?:-}

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

[Martin Riddle]

On Sat, 10 Aug 2013 16:00:43 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

>Folks,
>
>Got a Microsoft Bluetooth Mouse 5000, built in 2008 according to
>sticker. Just grabbed it and it stuck to my thumb. Eeeuw. The top
>surface of the rubber on its sides has started that dreaded dissolving
>process that you sometimes see in cheap Chinese stuff. Like with yard
>shovel handles et cetera. But is this supposed to happen on a Microsoft
>brand name product? Anyone know a fix for that mouse?

Yea, Buy a new one. Logitech perhaps.

Had this happen to my truck. The bracket the inside spare tire bolts
to had a 2 feet or so of soft rubber wrapped around it. After 12 years
it turned into goo. Yucky mess. Probably Ozone is the likely agent.

Cheers

[Joerg]

Martin Riddle wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Aug 2013 16:00:43 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> Folks,
>>
>> Got a Microsoft Bluetooth Mouse 5000, built in 2008 according to
>> sticker. Just grabbed it and it stuck to my thumb. Eeeuw. The top
>> surface of the rubber on its sides has started that dreaded dissolving
>> process that you sometimes see in cheap Chinese stuff. Like with yard
>> shovel handles et cetera. But is this supposed to happen on a Microsoft
>> brand name product? Anyone know a fix for that mouse?
>
> Yea, Buy a new one. Logitech perhaps.
>

Hate to throw stuff away but I guess I need to switch brands then.

> Had this happen to my truck. The bracket the inside spare tire bolts
> to had a 2 feet or so of soft rubber wrapped around it. After 12 years
> it turned into goo. Yucky mess. Probably Ozone is the likely agent.
>

Looks like some companies know how to make good rubber and others don't.
I have stuff with rubber surfaces from the 50's and it's still good.

[Phil Hobbs]

The other approach is to carefully remove the rubber part, make a
plaster mould, and cast a replacement out of some nice material like
Devcon Flexane 30. (That's a great method for irreplaceable parts, but
not so much for a mouse!)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 USA
+1 845 480 2058

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

[Joerg]

Phil Hobbs wrote:
> On 8/10/2013 7:24 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> Martin Riddle wrote:
>>> On Sat, 10 Aug 2013 16:00:43 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Folks,
>>>>
>>>> Got a Microsoft Bluetooth Mouse 5000, built in 2008 according to
>>>> sticker. Just grabbed it and it stuck to my thumb. Eeeuw. The top
>>>> surface of the rubber on its sides has started that dreaded dissolving
>>>> process that you sometimes see in cheap Chinese stuff. Like with yard
>>>> shovel handles et cetera. But is this supposed to happen on a Microsoft
>>>> brand name product? Anyone know a fix for that mouse?
>>>
>>> Yea, Buy a new one. Logitech perhaps.
>>>
>>
>> Hate to throw stuff away but I guess I need to switch brands then.
>>
>>
>>> Had this happen to my truck. The bracket the inside spare tire bolts
>>> to had a 2 feet or so of soft rubber wrapped around it. After 12 years
>>> it turned into goo. Yucky mess. Probably Ozone is the likely agent.
>>>
>>
>> Looks like some companies know how to make good rubber and others don't.
>> I have stuff with rubber surfaces from the 50's and it's still good.
>>
>
> The other approach is to carefully remove the rubber part, make a
> plaster mould, and cast a replacement out of some nice material like
> Devcon Flexane 30. (That's a great method for irreplaceable parts, but
> not so much for a mouse!)
>

Hey, that's an idea. I still have some black leather. Now a mouse with
leather sides, that would be something. Just not sure with what to glue
it on. It goes around a corner so it would have to hold on real good.

[bitrex]

I have a Logitech M510 Bluetooth mouse, and the same thing has happened,
only faster. The rubber over the area where the thumb goes has
completely disintegrated into little pieces in about 9 months.

[Jamie M]

Hi,

Also if you remove all the rubber you will have a plastic mouse instead
which would still work as a mouse but probably not very comfortable to
use. Maybe there is a rubber coating that could be painted onto the
plastic though, maybe the rubber coating could just be put on in the
areas where your hand touches the mouse too, might be kind of customized
then, for shaping it right to fit your fingers before it cures.

cheers,
Jamie

[Joerg]

Or ... naugahide :-)

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 10 Aug 2013 16:00:43 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

>Got a Microsoft Bluetooth Mouse 5000, built in 2008 according to
>sticker. Just grabbed it and it stuck to my thumb. Eeeuw. The top
>surface of the rubber on its sides has started that dreaded dissolving
>process that you sometimes see in cheap Chinese stuff. Like with yard
>shovel handles et cetera. But is this supposed to happen on a Microsoft
>brand name product? Anyone know a fix for that mouse?

<http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/en-us/p/wireless-mouse-5000>
Good mouse and worth saving, even if it does say Microsoft on the
label.

It's a common problem that's often discussed in various forums. The
rubber-like stuff is actually a coating or paint. Underneath is
ordinary non-sticky ABS plastic. What's happening is that the
crosslinks are breaking down in the paint and turning back to its
normal sticky goo. You can try to re-vulcanize it with various
chemical vulcanization potions and accelerators, but so far, I haven't
found anything that really works. The problem seems to be that none
of the chemical vulcanization potions work at room temperature.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcanization>
170C for the vulcanization to work. ABS melts at 105C.

I have had fair luck burying the sticky goo under an additional layer
of rubberish paint:
<http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3573712>
The catch is that if you spray it on too thin, it will be porous,
causing the underlying sticky goo to creep through the pores. If too
thick, it will not harden properly, and your mouse will feel like it's
made from a sponge. Some practice is recommended.

Otherwise, you can do what I've done to all kinds of devices that were
covered with premature replacement accelerating rubber. I use a
toxic, smelly, and disgusting solvent (Goop Off, Goof Off, or
something similar) to remove ALL the rubber paint, and left the
plastic uncoated. Wear gloves and do it outside.


--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Jim Thompson]

On Sat, 10 Aug 2013 17:33:58 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

Or just wear a rubber glove ?:-}

[Phil Hobbs]

Save the Naugas!

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 10 Aug 2013 17:41:03 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>I have had fair luck burying the sticky goo under an additional layer
>of rubberish paint:
><http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3573712>

This stuff might also work:
<http://hypersealinc.com/index.php/rubberize-it/rubber-coating.html>
I haven't tried it (yet).

[David Eather]

On Sun, 11 Aug 2013 10:41:03 +1000, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

Plain methylated spirit or IPA also work - maybe you have to scrub harder.
Other than 'feel' I don't know of any advantage with those rubber coatings
that are only applied for decorative reasons. The shape will determine if
the mouse is good to use.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 11 Aug 2013 12:26:15 +1000, "David Eather" <eat...@tpg.com.au>
wrote:

>Plain methylated spirit or IPA also work - maybe you have to scrub harder.

I did my Sears IR thermometer using ethanol. It took LOTS of
scrubbing to remove all the rubber goo. However, the solvent didn't
attack the plastic, so it was probably worthwhile. I also tried
stronger solvents (MEK, trichlor, and acetone) all of which attacked
the underlying plastic on an electric screwdriver with the same
problem. I was about to give up when I tried one of the Goof Off
mixes. The rubber goo came off fairly neatly and easily, and it did
not attack the plastic. It contains 3 different ethers, one alcohol,
and oleic acid, none of which I have in my chemistry set.
<http://www.goofoffproducts.com//uploads/general/GO_Heavy_Duty_MSDS_2465.2_MSDS_120811.pdf>

>Other than 'feel' I don't know of any advantage with those rubber coatings
>that are only applied for decorative reasons. The shape will determine if
>the mouse is good to use.

Agreed. I spent some time helping a friend design the ultimate mouse
for his hand. The problem was that he was missing 2 fingers on the
right hand. None of the off the shelf mice seemed to feel right.

I started with a blob of modeling clay with a shaft shoved down the
center. I used the resultant hardened blob as the original on a
pattern duplicating wood lathe, and made a copy from various pieces of
scrap 4x4 wood. That was followed by hollowing out the resultant
mouse like shape to make room for the internal mechanism and
electronics. It was a bit bizarre looking (asymmetrical) which
required that I had to make some adjustments to the locations of the
buttons and wheel, but in the end it worked quite nicely.

I also made one for myself, which unfortunately disappeared about 15
years ago. My favored shape was a block about the size of a pack of
cigarettes, with a foam lined depression for my palm, and slots for my
fingers, which wrapped over buttons on the beveled front of the mouse.
It fit the shape of my hand when it was in a neutral and relaxed
position with which I'm familiar from playing piano and synth
keyboards. The mouse looked weird, but was quite comfortable.

I later tried to setup a friend in the business of making such custom
mice and keyboards, but he dropped the ball and never did anything
with it.

I also threw together a mouse glove with switches in the glove finger
tips. That had a rather odd collection of problems making it
basically a bad idea. However, one innovation was useful. I added a
moving wrist support with rollers. The idea was not to waste any
effort keeping the hand elevated. The roller wrist support moved
around the table instead of the mouse. Just tap the fingers on the
table when a button needed pressing. I also tried it with a raised
keyboard, which also worked nicely. The rollers were 3 steel ball
furniture casters.

Plenty of room for creativity in the mouse biz:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=steampunk+mouse&tbm=isch>
<http://www.onrpgblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/TankMouse.jpg>

I have 2 of these:
<http://boingboing.net/2009/11/10/the-original-40-butt.html>

[Snackuli]

On 08/10/2013 04:00 PM, Joerg wrote:
> Folks,
>
> Got a Microsoft Bluetooth Mouse 5000, built in 2008 according to
> sticker. Just grabbed it and it stuck to my thumb. Eeeuw. The top
> surface of the rubber on its sides has started that dreaded dissolving
> process that you sometimes see in cheap Chinese stuff. Like with yard
> shovel handles et cetera. But is this supposed to happen on a Microsoft
> brand name product? Anyone know a fix for that mouse?

It's Blob-like material. Remember The Blob?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blob
You will be assimilated.

[Martin Brown]

Yes. It is ozone damage breaking up the polymer. If you don't care waht
it looks like then dusting it with talcum powder or better still with
diatomaceous earth will make the surface bearable. My old Psions after
eventually suffered this fate as their rubbery surfaces decayed but it
took more than a decade. I expect the MS mouse is badged Chinese junk.

Why not try a tracker ball instead? Logitech makes a better kit anyway.
I have always had a soft spot for them as I knew them as compiler
developers back in the days long before they were famous for making ice.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno]

On Sat, 10 Aug 2013 16:00:43 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

>Folks,
>
>Got a Microsoft Bluetooth Mouse 5000, built in 2008 according to
>sticker. Just grabbed it and it stuck to my thumb. Eeeuw. The top
>surface of the rubber on its sides has started that dreaded dissolving
>process that you sometimes see in cheap Chinese stuff. Like with yard
>shovel handles et cetera. But is this supposed to happen on a Microsoft
>brand name product? Anyone know a fix for that mouse?

I haven't flown wearing these patent leather shoes I have since my mom
passed away back in '04. Notice them the other day, and the entire sole,
which I thought was part leather but isn't was crumbling, literally in my
hands.

I have never seen vulcanized rubber do that. The cheap Chinese must
have cut a few corners or something, even the Italian name didn't stop
it. Crazy black crumbs grinding into my carpet. My would be perfectly
fine shoes are dead! I do not know if they can even be re-soled or if I
would want to. If I would pay for that, I might as well get a better
pair that wouldn't get that way to start with. Eeeewwwwwww indeed.

[DraconisExtinctor]

On Sat, 10 Aug 2013 20:42:49 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:

>On 8/10/2013 8:33 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> Jamie M wrote:

>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Also if you remove all the rubber you will have a plastic mouse instead
>>> which would still work as a mouse but probably not very comfortable to
>>> use. Maybe there is a rubber coating that could be painted onto the
>>> plastic though, maybe the rubber coating could just be put on in the
>>> areas where your hand touches the mouse too, might be kind of customized
>>> then, for shaping it right to fit your fingers before it cures.
>>>
>>
>> Or ... naugahide :-)
>>
>Save the Naugas!
>
>Cheers
>
>Phil Hobbs

NONE shall pass!

[Joerg]

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Aug 2013 16:00:43 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> Got a Microsoft Bluetooth Mouse 5000, built in 2008 according to
>> sticker. Just grabbed it and it stuck to my thumb. Eeeuw. The top
>> surface of the rubber on its sides has started that dreaded dissolving
>> process that you sometimes see in cheap Chinese stuff. Like with yard
>> shovel handles et cetera. But is this supposed to happen on a Microsoft
>> brand name product? Anyone know a fix for that mouse?
>
> <http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/en-us/p/wireless-mouse-5000>
> Good mouse and worth saving, even if it does say Microsoft on the
> label.
>

Mine has silver striping and says "Bluetooth Mouse" but probably the
same thing. One reason why I asked how to salvage it is that this mouse
has an amazing RF range. I have yet to find a conference room where it
wouldn't work. Others become iffy if you get 15ft away.

> It's a common problem that's often discussed in various forums. The
> rubber-like stuff is actually a coating or paint. Underneath is
> ordinary non-sticky ABS plastic. What's happening is that the
> crosslinks are breaking down in the paint and turning back to its
> normal sticky goo. You can try to re-vulcanize it with various
> chemical vulcanization potions and accelerators, but so far, I haven't
> found anything that really works. The problem seems to be that none
> of the chemical vulcanization potions work at room temperature.
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcanization>
> 170C for the vulcanization to work. ABS melts at 105C.
>
> I have had fair luck burying the sticky goo under an additional layer
> of rubberish paint:
> <http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3573712>
> The catch is that if you spray it on too thin, it will be porous,
> causing the underlying sticky goo to creep through the pores. If too
> thick, it will not harden properly, and your mouse will feel like it's
> made from a sponge. Some practice is recommended.
>
> Otherwise, you can do what I've done to all kinds of devices that were
> covered with premature replacement accelerating rubber. I use a
> toxic, smelly, and disgusting solvent (Goop Off, Goof Off, or
> something similar) to remove ALL the rubber paint, and left the
> plastic uncoated. Wear gloves and do it outside.
>

I think peeling it off may be the only option. I use this mouse rarely,
so some handling issues would be tolerable.

[Joerg]

That happened to a former neighbor in Germany. He bought top-notch name
brand hiking shoes, the no-expense-spared kind. They were so good that
he bought a spare pair, just in case they'd be discontinued some day. It
sat in their shoe rack for years because the other pair held up so well.
Then someone told him that the rubber can disintegrate if they aren't
walked once in a while. And sure enough when he wore them both broke apart.

Happened to me recently as well. Had a pair I rarely wore. Visited a
university for a lab experiment for which I had to schlepp a compressor
from the fairly remote parking lot to where the lab was. In the evening
one shoe broke its sole in half.

A good shoemaker can clean it all off and fit them with a whole new
rubber sole but it'll be costly.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 11 Aug 2013 07:22:25 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

>> <http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/en-us/p/wireless-mouse-5000>

>Mine has silver striping and says "Bluetooth Mouse" but probably the
>same thing. One reason why I asked how to salvage it is that this mouse
>has an amazing RF range. I have yet to find a conference room where it
>wouldn't work. Others become iffy if you get 15ft away.

I have a Microsoft Notebook Presenter Mouse 8000 with the same
advantage. Plenty of range. There's a reason for all the range. The
8000 has a built in laser pointer and was designed to be used in a
presentation, where long range is highly desireable. Your 5000 is the
same as the 8000, but without the laser pointer. No sign of rubber
decomposition, yet.

[Joerg]

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Aug 2013 07:22:25 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>>> <http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/en-us/p/wireless-mouse-5000>
>
>> Mine has silver striping and says "Bluetooth Mouse" but probably the
>> same thing. One reason why I asked how to salvage it is that this mouse
>> has an amazing RF range. I have yet to find a conference room where it
>> wouldn't work. Others become iffy if you get 15ft away.
>
> I have a Microsoft Notebook Presenter Mouse 8000 with the same
> advantage. Plenty of range. There's a reason for all the range. The
> 8000 has a built in laser pointer and was designed to be used in a
> presentation, where long range is highly desireable. Your 5000 is the
> same as the 8000, but without the laser pointer. No sign of rubber
> decomposition, yet.
>

I never missed a laser pointer. The projector, connections and thus my
laptop are usually way in the back. I like to stand near the screen so
people can see me and ask questions. Then ye olde pull-out
"antenna-style" pen suffices. I even have one in army fatigue decor.

[legg]

On Sat, 10 Aug 2013 16:00:43 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

>Folks,
>
>Got a Microsoft Bluetooth Mouse 5000, built in 2008 according to
>sticker. Just grabbed it and it stuck to my thumb. Eeeuw. The top
>surface of the rubber on its sides has started that dreaded dissolving
>process that you sometimes see in cheap Chinese stuff. Like with yard
>shovel handles et cetera. But is this supposed to happen on a Microsoft
>brand name product? Anyone know a fix for that mouse?

Every time a product changes manufacturing site or gets introduced
into a new production venue; any time a manufacturing process is
altered; mistakes can happen. It's not a strictly Chinese phenomenon,
it's just that China gets 90% of the new products and new
manufacturing start-ups right now.

You'll find that even if some plastics formulations are individually
sound, they do not inter-react safely. Outgassing from some
formulations act to dissolve others. Most plastics degrade from the
manufacturing date - it's just a matter of time.

I've had a top of the line US-made nut driver - one in a set - that
has outgassed cheesy smelling fumes from it's clear blue plastic
handle for two decades, as it's surface slowly converts to white
powder.

Insulation on wire cutter handles dissolve the plastic faces of nearby
measuring tools. Coffee makers spring open when hot water is applied.
Plastic hardware used universally in 'IBM grey' PC clones that turn
brown on their light-exposed surfaces (no - it wasn't tobacco smoke).

Unless it starts a fire, or kills somebody, you'll not get much
sympathy. As you've discovered, 'brand' loyalty or even survival of
outstanding products is not an option, when brands are sold or
out-sourced and models are prematurely obsolescent.

Who the hell needs a Bluetooth mouse?

RL

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 11 Aug 2013 08:11:26 +0100, Martin Brown
<|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>Yes. It is ozone damage breaking up the polymer.

I beg to differ. One of the more interesting observations of the
rubber decomposition problem is that the entire rubber volume fails
simultaneously. It does NOT fail in spots or sections, but rather all
at once. That implies that the decomposition was not caused by
external exposure to chemicals or UV light, which would present an
uneven surface distribution. That suggests that the cause is built
into the material during manufacture or application.

My erratic reading and limited knowledge on the topic suggest that
some vulcanization methods require a post-vulcanization bake to remove
residues and solvents which can be trapped in the rubber. Thin
painted layers have less of this problem (because of the large surface
area to volume ratio), but are still susceptible. This is normally
done by baking, possibly in a partial vacuum. There are also optional
hardeners involved in some processes. If the manufactory wanted to
save effort and expense, or if the plastic base was incompatible with
the bake temperature, they could conceivably skip this
post-vulcanization step, especially since it takes several years for
the rubber to break down.

I think (not sure) that this may be the process used:
<http://www.google.com/patents/US5556668>

>If you don't care waht
>it looks like then dusting it with talcum powder or better still with
>diatomaceous earth will make the surface bearable. My old Psions after
>eventually suffered this fate as their rubbery surfaces decayed but it
>took more than a decade. I expect the MS mouse is badged Chinese junk.

Talcum powder (hydrated magnesium silicate) is interesting stuff. It's
used between truck tire inner tubes and tires to prevent the two
rubbers from heat vulcanizing and sticking together. However, the
rubber parts will only stick if they get hot enough, which is unlikely
in the typical consumer products.

I've had mixed results with talc and corn starch. They seem to work
somewhat for thin surfaces such a rubberized paint, but they fail
badly where a volume of rubber is involved, such as tape recorder
idler wheels, rubber belts, and shoe soles. Even when it works, it's
still slightly "mushy" and still a little sticky.

Incidentally, I recently had to deal with a big rubberized mess. It
was an Alienware (pre-Dell) laptop, where the entire top surface of
the display section was painted with rubberized paint. I didn't try
talc, but used half a can of Goof-Off to remove all the rubber. It
now looks kinda ugly, but at least the laptop is usable.

>Why not try a tracker ball instead? Logitech makes a better kit anyway.
>I have always had a soft spot for them as I knew them as compiler
>developers back in the days long before they were famous for making ice.

For those not familiar with ice hockey, it's the "Logitech Ice
Center", home of the San Jose Sharks.
<http://s4.evcdn.com/images/block200/I0-001/001/138/507-6.jpeg_/logitech-ice-center-07.jpeg>

[Joerg]

legg wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Aug 2013 16:00:43 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> Folks,
>>
>> Got a Microsoft Bluetooth Mouse 5000, built in 2008 according to
>> sticker. Just grabbed it and it stuck to my thumb. Eeeuw. The top
>> surface of the rubber on its sides has started that dreaded dissolving
>> process that you sometimes see in cheap Chinese stuff. Like with yard
>> shovel handles et cetera. But is this supposed to happen on a Microsoft
>> brand name product? Anyone know a fix for that mouse?
>
> Every time a product changes manufacturing site or gets introduced
> into a new production venue; any time a manufacturing process is
> altered; mistakes can happen. It's not a strictly Chinese phenomenon,
> it's just that China gets 90% of the new products and new
> manufacturing start-ups right now.
>
> You'll find that even if some plastics formulations are individually
> sound, they do not inter-react safely. Outgassing from some
> formulations act to dissolve others. Most plastics degrade from the
> manufacturing date - it's just a matter of time.
>

For some reason it never happens with stuff from older days and good
brands. For example, I have numerous pens with anti-slip coating that
feels just the same but they are old. Some over 20 years. Same with lots
of tools, bit screwdrivers from the 1980's and so on. Why is it that
older chemical engineers almost always got it right and younger ones
seem to screw up a lot?

> I've had a top of the line US-made nut driver - one in a set - that
> has outgassed cheesy smelling fumes from it's clear blue plastic
> handle for two decades, as it's surface slowly converts to white
> powder.
>

Yikes. Maybe then it wasn't really to of the line but more like top of
the price range :-)

> Insulation on wire cutter handles dissolve the plastic faces of nearby
> measuring tools. Coffee makers spring open when hot water is applied.

That coffee maker is a clear sign of a rushed release, shipping untested
product.

> Plastic hardware used universally in 'IBM grey' PC clones that turn
> brown on their light-exposed surfaces (no - it wasn't tobacco smoke).
>

See? It didn't happen with the original IBM hardware. Since my dad
worked there our family was an early adopter, starting with the IBM
5100. It's still there and nothing ever disintegrated.

> Unless it starts a fire, or kills somebody, you'll not get much
> sympathy. As you've discovered, 'brand' loyalty or even survival of
> outstanding products is not an option, when brands are sold or
> out-sourced and models are prematurely obsolescent.
>

True, and my brand-loyalty is pretty much at a low point right now. Why
pay more when the chance that it's junk is about equally high?

> Who the hell needs a Bluetooth mouse?
>

For example, people who need to regularly do design reviews. Sometimes
happens ad hoc, where it's not practical or there isn't time to spool
the data onto a client PC. Or not permitted. Then I plop down my
netbook, hook it to their projector and bingo. I can operate the PC from
the presenter position up front with this mouse, but not with some
others that have less range.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 11 Aug 2013 09:27:24 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

Same here, except I usually use an old wooden yard stick. With the
wide surface to the audience, it can be easily seen from the back of
the room. With the narrow surface to the audience, it can be used for
precision pointing. For running the computer, I prefer a large
touchpad and long USB cable but sometimes use one of these:
<http://www.ebay.com/itm/130944762245>
I do everything possible to avoid PowerPoint and dark rooms.

Drivel: I always bring at least 3 different ways to display my slide
show pictures. Every time I've given my song and dance, there's
always something broken or missing. For example, my last song and
dance (on cell phones and brain cancer), had a perfectly good working
overhead projector, but the remote control and cables were missing. I
had to use a much smaller LED projector instead. I once gave a slide
show using the composite video output from my xv6700 smart phone into
a TV screen. One time, everything failed, including my computer.
However, I had a ring binder with color prints of my slides, which I
passed around the audience. There has been some discussion that my
presence might be causing these equipment failures.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 11 Aug 2013 12:34:49 -0500, legg <le...@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:

>I've had a top of the line US-made nut driver - one in a set - that
>has outgassed cheesy smelling fumes from it's clear blue plastic
>handle for two decades, as it's surface slowly converts to white
>powder.

Like this?
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/white-plastic-rot/index.html>
There was a discussion on the topic in sci.electronics.repair a while
ago on the topic. Many people thought it was mold growing on the
surface of the plastic, probably because it looked like mold. However,
under the microsocope, the white stuff is just more plastic. Also, the
powder melts just like plastic.

>Insulation on wire cutter handles dissolve the plastic faces of nearby
>measuring tools. Coffee makers spring open when hot water is applied.
>Plastic hardware used universally in 'IBM grey' PC clones that turn
>brown on their light-exposed surfaces (no - it wasn't tobacco smoke).

Yep, but there's a cure:
<http://retr0bright.wikispaces.com>
I recently cleaned up some HP Laserjet printer plastic parts. The
customer was happier with the cosmetic improvement, than with anything
I fixed inside the printer. Sigh.

>Who the hell needs a Bluetooth mouse?

Me. Many of the devices and smartphones that I own, borrow, or use
have built in Bluetooth. Certainly all my Apple products have built
in Bluetooth. When I need a keyboard or mouse, I just pair the
device, instead of looking for the matching dongle.

[Joerg]

Sure. But then you have to lug another gizmo in the precious on-board
luggage space, where the mouse could double as a work tool and a
presenter tool. I try not to be a space hog an limit myself to a pilot's
briefcase in size. So I pack minimalist style. An that has to include
home-made sandwiches because airport food is often horrid.

> I do everything possible to avoid PowerPoint and dark rooms.
>

Well, I don't always have that luxury. As John Wayne said, man's got to
do what man's got to do.

> Drivel: I always bring at least 3 different ways to display my slide
> show pictures. Every time I've given my song and dance, there's
> always something broken or missing. For example, my last song and
> dance (on cell phones and brain cancer), had a perfectly good working
> overhead projector, but the remote control and cables were missing. I

> had to use a much smaller LED projector instead. ...


Yeah, but I will not lug a projector around even though you can get nice
compact ones these days.


> ... I once gave a slide

> show using the composite video output from my xv6700 smart phone into
> a TV screen. One time, everything failed, including my computer.
> However, I had a ring binder with color prints of my slides, which I
> passed around the audience. There has been some discussion that my
> presence might be causing these equipment failures.
>

They also say that to me at times, mostly because I am also often Mr.
Quality Tester. "Why does this system have a blue screen?" ... "That one
has just been joerged".

At least nowadays one can always find a PC and a large monitor so I
carry my presentation files also on a stick. Two, actually, one never
knows. In the old days with the overheads I had it happen a lot ...
click ... flash ... *POOF* ... "Does anyone know where a spare bulb
is?" ... "Ahm, well, not really, we only have another dead one". So
everyone had to scoot forward and I stuck the overheads to the white
board. I tried to avoid slides because then you are really screwed when
the projector blitzes off.

[Joerg]

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Aug 2013 12:34:49 -0500, legg <le...@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:
>

[...]

>> Insulation on wire cutter handles dissolve the plastic faces of nearby
>> measuring tools. Coffee makers spring open when hot water is applied.
>> Plastic hardware used universally in 'IBM grey' PC clones that turn
>> brown on their light-exposed surfaces (no - it wasn't tobacco smoke).
>
> Yep, but there's a cure:
> <http://retr0bright.wikispaces.com>

They even do that with teeth, when they have developed deep-rooted local
darkening.

[...]

[Don Y]

Hi Joerg,

On 8/11/2013 9:56 AM, Joerg wrote:

>>> Got a Microsoft Bluetooth Mouse 5000, built in 2008 according to
>>> sticker. Just grabbed it and it stuck to my thumb. Eeeuw. The top
>>> surface of the rubber on its sides has started that dreaded dissolving
>>> process that you sometimes see in cheap Chinese stuff. Like with yard
>>> shovel handles et cetera. But is this supposed to happen on a Microsoft
>>> brand name product? Anyone know a fix for that mouse?

>> You'll find that even if some plastics formulations are individually
>> sound, they do not inter-react safely. Outgassing from some
>> formulations act to dissolve others. Most plastics degrade from the
>> manufacturing date - it's just a matter of time.
>
> For some reason it never happens with stuff from older days and good
> brands. For example, I have numerous pens with anti-slip coating that
> feels just the same but they are old. Some over 20 years. Same with lots
> of tools, bit screwdrivers from the 1980's and so on. Why is it that
> older chemical engineers almost always got it right and younger ones
> seem to screw up a lot?

>> Plastic hardware used universally in 'IBM grey' PC clones that turn
>> brown on their light-exposed surfaces (no - it wasn't tobacco smoke).
>
> See? It didn't happen with the original IBM hardware. Since my dad
> worked there our family was an early adopter, starting with the IBM
> 5100. It's still there and nothing ever disintegrated.

I think far more synthetics are used, nowadays. And, things are
designed with short expected lifetimes.

The "rubber" feet on my external Sun enclosures all turn to *goo*
over time. First time this happened, the device in question was
sitting on a nice piece of wooden furniture. What a mess! I now
put *felt* feet under any device that sits on any "solid" surface
(I wonder when I will discover that the felt turns to some obnoxious
substance over time??)

>> Who the hell needs a Bluetooth mouse?

I use a BT keyboard and mouse on my tablet PC's. Normally, the
pen interface is sufficient (navigation, annotation, etc.). But,
when I *really* need to "talk" to them, fingers and pens just
don't cut it.

(Unfortunately, my BT keyboard and mouse are both "full size".
I need to find smaller versions of both -- esp the mouse)

> For example, people who need to regularly do design reviews. Sometimes
> happens ad hoc, where it's not practical or there isn't time to spool
> the data onto a client PC. Or not permitted. Then I plop down my
> netbook, hook it to their projector and bingo. I can operate the PC from
> the presenter position up front with this mouse, but not with some
> others that have less range.

Over the years, I've used various "pointing devices" for presentations.

I have a couple of projectors whose remotes include laser pointers.
But, I am always leery of using laser pointers and the chance for
abuse (sort of like having compressed air in a shop!). And, requires
*my* projector be present (though I have one projector that is about
the same volume as a small laptop)

At one point, I enjoyed <http://www.logitech.com/en-us/support/961>
(essentially, a wireless trackball). But, it was bulky, required
a special "receiver", etc. (It's main advantage was you could use
it on a foreign PC or projector without requiring a special driver)

For large groups <http://www.gyration.com/products/air-mouse-go-plus>
was excellent! Especially when you configured the gestural interface!
Even without that, it was a spooky feeling as it *looked* like you
were actually moving the cursor AS IF by a laser pointer -- even
though this was often "coincidence" (i.e., the gain of the gyro
happening to make your motions "match" that of the cursor). But,
after some of these "grew legs" on a couple of different occasions, I
decided their novelty was too expensive for me to continue supporting!
<grin>

<http://www.clarybusinessmachines.com/eBeam-Classic-Projection_4363.htm>
worked well on a whiteboard. With the "capture pack" (essentially,
holders for four colored whiteboard "markers" plus an "eraser"),
it was easy to annotate and revise presentations based on feedback
from others in the room (folks seem obsessed with watching as *their*
marks are added to the video -- it encouraged more participation than
was really necessary! :-/ )

<http://www.wheelermachines.com/philips_5282.htm> is my latest
choice for "presentation controller". Corded, unfortunately. But,
the trackball is easy to use to manipulate the cursor "one handed",
plenty of buttons to preassign to key actions ("next", "previous",
"up", "back", etc.) -- I think there are 12? buttons on (or under)
the thing!

Before a presentation, I print up a cheat-sheet of its contents and
tag each image with a barcode. So, during the presentation, I can
find the "thumbnail" I am looking for and scan that barcode to
quickly bring me to a desired point in the presentation (much
more elegant than having to navigate a menu or leaning on "next"
and "previous" while folks watch images flip past!)

But, the most appealing is that it allows me to tag the presentation
with live audio -- so I don't have to stop to type up notes from
those present, etc. An "ideal" solution would have an open mic that
also fed into a transcriber so comments and questions could be
recorded "in sequence" with the presentation for review, later.

[Even *more* appealing is NOT making presentations! Or, make
presentations that interact with the viewer so *you* don't have to!
;-) ]

[Joerg]

And then they wonder why brand loyalty or "Buy American" goes to pots.

> The "rubber" feet on my external Sun enclosures all turn to *goo*
> over time. First time this happened, the device in question was
> sitting on a nice piece of wooden furniture. What a mess! I now
> put *felt* feet under any device that sits on any "solid" surface
> (I wonder when I will discover that the felt turns to some obnoxious
> substance over time??)
>

Yeah, I also had that happen. Nasty, nasty. Especially when you lift the
device and ... phchwock ... a chunk of veneer comes off with it.

>>> Who the hell needs a Bluetooth mouse?
>
> I use a BT keyboard and mouse on my tablet PC's. Normally, the
> pen interface is sufficient (navigation, annotation, etc.). But,
> when I *really* need to "talk" to them, fingers and pens just
> don't cut it.
>

Most certainly not when the audience is dozens of people and some are
dialed in remotely via web. Many, many times the cursor on my computer
actually was my makeshift laser pointer for that reason.

> (Unfortunately, my BT keyboard and mouse are both "full size".
> I need to find smaller versions of both -- esp the mouse)
>
>> For example, people who need to regularly do design reviews. Sometimes
>> happens ad hoc, where it's not practical or there isn't time to spool
>> the data onto a client PC. Or not permitted. Then I plop down my
>> netbook, hook it to their projector and bingo. I can operate the PC from
>> the presenter position up front with this mouse, but not with some
>> others that have less range.
>
> Over the years, I've used various "pointing devices" for presentations.
>

Western-style pointing device:

http://www.ubergizmo.com/2007/11/gun-shaped-computer-mouse/

> I have a couple of projectors whose remotes include laser pointers.
> But, I am always leery of using laser pointers and the chance for
> abuse (sort of like having compressed air in a shop!). And, requires
> *my* projector be present (though I have one projector that is about
> the same volume as a small laptop)
>
> At one point, I enjoyed <http://www.logitech.com/en-us/support/961>
> (essentially, a wireless trackball). But, it was bulky, required
> a special "receiver", etc. (It's main advantage was you could use
> it on a foreign PC or projector without requiring a special driver)
>

Bulky and special receiver is no good for me.

> For large groups <http://www.gyration.com/products/air-mouse-go-plus>
> was excellent! Especially when you configured the gestural interface!
> Even without that, it was a spooky feeling as it *looked* like you
> were actually moving the cursor AS IF by a laser pointer -- even
> though this was often "coincidence" (i.e., the gain of the gyro
> happening to make your motions "match" that of the cursor). But,
> after some of these "grew legs" on a couple of different occasions, I
> decided their novelty was too expensive for me to continue supporting!
> <grin>
>

Too big for the road.

> <http://www.clarybusinessmachines.com/eBeam-Classic-Projection_4363.htm>
> worked well on a whiteboard. With the "capture pack" (essentially,
> holders for four colored whiteboard "markers" plus an "eraser"),
> it was easy to annotate and revise presentations based on feedback
> from others in the room (folks seem obsessed with watching as *their*
> marks are added to the video -- it encouraged more participation than
> was really necessary! :-/ )
>

Neat! Does it really work reliably everywhere?

> <http://www.wheelermachines.com/philips_5282.htm> is my latest
> choice for "presentation controller". Corded, unfortunately. But,
> the trackball is easy to use to manipulate the cursor "one handed",
> plenty of buttons to preassign to key actions ("next", "previous",
> "up", "back", etc.) -- I think there are 12? buttons on (or under)
> the thing!
>

That's kind of large, and a dictaphone is probably already part of a
smart phone (I don't have one yet). I rarely have a need for that but
then my netbook doubles as a dictaphone. Come to think of it, it doubles
as a lot of things.

> Before a presentation, I print up a cheat-sheet of its contents and
> tag each image with a barcode. So, during the presentation, I can
> find the "thumbnail" I am looking for and scan that barcode to
> quickly bring me to a desired point in the presentation (much
> more elegant than having to navigate a menu or leaning on "next"
> and "previous" while folks watch images flip past!)
>
> But, the most appealing is that it allows me to tag the presentation
> with live audio -- so I don't have to stop to type up notes from
> those present, etc. An "ideal" solution would have an open mic that
> also fed into a transcriber so comments and questions could be
> recorded "in sequence" with the presentation for review, later.
>

Open mics make people very uncomfortable.

> [Even *more* appealing is NOT making presentations! Or, make
> presentations that interact with the viewer so *you* don't have to!
> ;-) ]

"Yo, Mr.Jones, y'all listen to this here presentation. If there's any
questions I'll be at Kelsey's bar".

[Joerg]

bitrex wrote:

> On 8/10/2013 7:19 PM, Martin Riddle wrote:
>> On Sat, 10 Aug 2013 16:00:43 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Folks,
>>>

>>> Got a Microsoft Bluetooth Mouse 5000, built in 2008 according to
>>> sticker. Just grabbed it and it stuck to my thumb. Eeeuw. The top
>>> surface of the rubber on its sides has started that dreaded dissolving
>>> process that you sometimes see in cheap Chinese stuff. Like with yard
>>> shovel handles et cetera. But is this supposed to happen on a Microsoft
>>> brand name product? Anyone know a fix for that mouse?
>>

>> Yea, Buy a new one. Logitech perhaps.
>>
>> Had this happen to my truck. The bracket the inside spare tire bolts
>> to had a 2 feet or so of soft rubber wrapped around it. After 12 years
>> it turned into goo. Yucky mess. Probably Ozone is the likely agent.
>>

>> Cheers
>
> I have a Logitech M510 Bluetooth mouse, and the same thing has happened,
> only faster. The rubber over the area where the thumb goes has
> completely disintegrated into little pieces in about 9 months.
>

Yikes, that would make this product fall under the category junk. I hope
you have read them the riot act.

So is there any pointing device company left that knows how to build
quality products?

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 11 Aug 2013 14:48:38 -0700, Don Y <th...@isnotme.com> wrote:

>(I wonder when I will discover that the felt turns to some obnoxious
>substance over time??)

Felt is stable, but is also quite porous. If you use it to cover up
sticky rubber feet, the goo will easily go through the felt.

>(Unfortunately, my BT keyboard and mouse are both "full size".
>I need to find smaller versions of both -- esp the mouse)

<http://www.ebay.com/itm/281002880037>
You might also want to visit the local toy store. Mice for kids are
much smaller than adult mice, but only a few will do Bluetooth.

>For large groups <http://www.gyration.com/products/air-mouse-go-plus>

I had two of those. They lasted about 1 month before one of my
customers "borrowed" them, and refused to return it. When I bought a
replacement, it too was "borrowed". I gave up.

It's possible for the arrow to follow a laser pointer, using a camera,
but I haven't seen any usable or affordable products:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fK-H16fE5Fw>
<http://web.mit.edu/6.111/www/s2006/PROJECT/3/Project3.pdf>

>Before a presentation, I print up a cheat-sheet of its contents and
>tag each image with a barcode. So, during the presentation, I can
>find the "thumbnail" I am looking for and scan that barcode to
>quickly bring me to a desired point in the presentation (much
>more elegant than having to navigate a menu or leaning on "next"
>and "previous" while folks watch images flip past!)

Good idea. I did much the same thing using QR codes. I did one of my
talks with images and audio clips on the web. I guess you could call
it "multimedia". Here's an old versions:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/SCCARC-talk-2010-06-18/SCCARC-talk.htm>
I encoded the URL's with one of the numerous QR code generators found
online:
<http://goqr.me>
<http://qrcode.kaywa.com>
and printed a cheat sheet. For backup, I also had a page of QR codes
pointing to the same images and audio clips on my local hard disk.

Incidentally, the group meets at the local hospital, which has free
wi-fi available. The problem is that they blocked all UDP packets by
default, causing the audio portion of my talk to fail miserably. So,
I had an MP3 recording of simulated audio as backup.

I still prefer a yardstick pointer.

[Don Y]

Hi Joerg,

On 8/11/2013 3:46 PM, Joerg wrote:

>> The "rubber" feet on my external Sun enclosures all turn to *goo*
>> over time. First time this happened, the device in question was
>> sitting on a nice piece of wooden furniture. What a mess! I now
>> put *felt* feet under any device that sits on any "solid" surface
>> (I wonder when I will discover that the felt turns to some obnoxious
>> substance over time??)
>
> Yeah, I also had that happen. Nasty, nasty. Especially when you lift the
> device and ... phchwock ... a chunk of veneer comes off with it.

Worse is the tension it generates/escalates with SWMBO who is
*already* convinced "there's too many computers around here!"
:-/

They have "shoe closets"... so, why not a *computer* closet??! :>

>> I have a couple of projectors whose remotes include laser pointers.
>> But, I am always leery of using laser pointers and the chance for
>> abuse (sort of like having compressed air in a shop!). And, requires
>> *my* projector be present (though I have one projector that is about
>> the same volume as a small laptop)
>>
>> At one point, I enjoyed <http://www.logitech.com/en-us/support/961>
>> (essentially, a wireless trackball). But, it was bulky, required
>> a special "receiver", etc. (It's main advantage was you could use
>> it on a foreign PC or projector without requiring a special driver)
>
> Bulky and special receiver is no good for me.

Yup. Even if I'm traveling without a suitcase (e.g., meetings
in airports), I don't want to have to carry yet another "thing".

>> For large groups <http://www.gyration.com/products/air-mouse-go-plus>
>> was excellent! Especially when you configured the gestural interface!
>> Even without that, it was a spooky feeling as it *looked* like you
>> were actually moving the cursor AS IF by a laser pointer -- even
>> though this was often "coincidence" (i.e., the gain of the gyro
>> happening to make your motions "match" that of the cursor). But,
>> after some of these "grew legs" on a couple of different occasions, I
>> decided their novelty was too expensive for me to continue supporting!
>> <grin>
>
> Too big for the road.

Once you've used one, the coolness factor really tends to outweigh
that. I'd rather leave a paperback out of my "briefcase" and
take the gyromouse than have the paperback to read on the plane...

>> <http://www.clarybusinessmachines.com/eBeam-Classic-Projection_4363.htm>
>> worked well on a whiteboard. With the "capture pack" (essentially,
>> holders for four colored whiteboard "markers" plus an "eraser"),
>> it was easy to annotate and revise presentations based on feedback
>> from others in the room (folks seem obsessed with watching as *their*
>> marks are added to the video -- it encouraged more participation than
>> was really necessary! :-/ )
>
> Neat! Does it really work reliably everywhere?

In each of my experiences, it worked well. Biggest complaint was
markers drying out (the "sleeves" into which they fit don't seal as
well as the normal caps that come with the pens -- from your local
office supply store). And, sometimes getting the wrong color marker
in a particular sleeve -- you're drawing in red ink but it's being
*recorded* as green, etc.

(solution: just bring *one* pen with you if you can't be relied
upon to get the colors right!)

>> <http://www.wheelermachines.com/philips_5282.htm> is my latest
>> choice for "presentation controller". Corded, unfortunately. But,
>> the trackball is easy to use to manipulate the cursor "one handed",
>> plenty of buttons to preassign to key actions ("next", "previous",
>> "up", "back", etc.) -- I think there are 12? buttons on (or under)
>> the thing!
>
> That's kind of large, and a dictaphone is probably already part of a
> smart phone (I don't have one yet). I rarely have a need for that but
> then my netbook doubles as a dictaphone. Come to think of it, it doubles
> as a lot of things.

The advantage of the handheld device is that you can use it without
having to bring it up to your mouth (i.e., to control projector,
cursor, etc.). And, can quickly/conveniently bring it up to JUST
your mouth when you want to mumble a note (without others in the
room being distracted by your action).

Cord is the biggest hassle. (and "special software")

>> Before a presentation, I print up a cheat-sheet of its contents and
>> tag each image with a barcode. So, during the presentation, I can
>> find the "thumbnail" I am looking for and scan that barcode to
>> quickly bring me to a desired point in the presentation (much
>> more elegant than having to navigate a menu or leaning on "next"
>> and "previous" while folks watch images flip past!)
>>
>> But, the most appealing is that it allows me to tag the presentation
>> with live audio -- so I don't have to stop to type up notes from
>> those present, etc. An "ideal" solution would have an open mic that
>> also fed into a transcriber so comments and questions could be
>> recorded "in sequence" with the presentation for review, later.
>
> Open mics make people very uncomfortable.

Yup. And others "grandstand". It's a tradeoff. Do you want a
comprehensive record of the meeting and the issues that were
raised? Or, do you want to rely on "memory" (stenographer?)
and *hope*?

[DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno]

On Sun, 11 Aug 2013 16:06:13 -0700, Don Y <th...@isnotme.com> wrote:

>
>They have "shoe closets"... so, why not a *computer* closet??! :>

They have to count the contents as assets at the end of the year.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 11 Aug 2013 15:46:41 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

>So is there any pointing device company left that knows how to build
>quality products?

Building a quality product is easy. Just throw lots of money at it.
<http://most-expensive.com/computer-mouse>
$24,180 for the mouse.

Maybe a titanium mouse:
<http://www.intelligent-design.nl/titanium_mouse.php>
Only 400 Euros ($534).

I think these ideas will eventually turn into overpriced quality
products:
<http://www.yankodesign.com/?s=computer+mouse>

I suspect that industrial and medical mice are better built:
<http://www.autoconception.com/bmw-group-designworksusa-designs-thermaltake%C2%B4s-level-10-m-computer-mouse/>
<http://mmouse.ttesports.com>
Very cool, but no pricing info.

This mouse doesn't last very long, but sure is great while it lasts:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=chocolate+mousse&tbm=isch>
Ok, not quite a mouse. Maybe one of these instead:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=chocolate+computer+mouse&tbm=isch

Maybe if you buy a mouse that doesn't have any rubber parts, you'll be
ok?

[Don Y]

Hi Jeff,

On 8/11/2013 3:49 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Aug 2013 14:48:38 -0700, Don Y <th...@isnotme.com> wrote:
>
>> (I wonder when I will discover that the felt turns to some obnoxious
>> substance over time??)
>
> Felt is stable, but is also quite porous. If you use it to cover up
> sticky rubber feet, the goo will easily go through the felt.

You peel the existing feet off (almost all that I have seen can be
peeled off *or* "unbolted" with very little effort). Of course,
once they are goo-ified, it becomes a bit more troublesome.

The worse problem with felt is that it allows the devices to slip
and slide on the surface supporting them. Sometimes, this can be
A Good Thing. More often than not, IME, it's a liability.

>> (Unfortunately, my BT keyboard and mouse are both "full size".
>> I need to find smaller versions of both -- esp the mouse)
>
> <http://www.ebay.com/itm/281002880037>
> You might also want to visit the local toy store. Mice for kids are
> much smaller than adult mice, but only a few will do Bluetooth.
>
>> For large groups <http://www.gyration.com/products/air-mouse-go-plus>
>
> I had two of those. They lasted about 1 month before one of my
> customers "borrowed" them, and refused to return it. When I bought a
> replacement, it too was "borrowed". I gave up.

Yes, frustrating. Esp as I imagine it was just curiosity that
led to their "disappearance". If I had wanted to continue using
these devices, I probably would have gutted one and brought it
along with me "for show and tell" so folks could see what's
inside without walking off with mine!

[Or, paint it irridescent orange! Back in the 70's, a colleague had
a pair of needle nose pliers that had a "groove" filed up near the
tip that acted as a wire stripper for #30AWG WW wire. These had
a habit of "walking off" (they were *really* excellent wire strippers!
Much easier to use than No-Niks). Or, being ABUSED as "needle nose
pliers" -- which could easily render the wire stripping ability
useless! So, he would paint his irridescent orange and *seize*
any tools of that color that he encountered around the shop.
"Mine, mine, mine, mine, mine!"]

>> Before a presentation, I print up a cheat-sheet of its contents and
>> tag each image with a barcode. So, during the presentation, I can
>> find the "thumbnail" I am looking for and scan that barcode to
>> quickly bring me to a desired point in the presentation (much
>> more elegant than having to navigate a menu or leaning on "next"
>> and "previous" while folks watch images flip past!)
>
> Good idea. I did much the same thing using QR codes. I did one of my
> talks with images and audio clips on the web. I guess you could call
> it "multimedia". Here's an old versions:
> <http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/SCCARC-talk-2010-06-18/SCCARC-talk.htm>
> I encoded the URL's with one of the numerous QR code generators found
> online:
> <http://goqr.me>
> <http://qrcode.kaywa.com>
> and printed a cheat sheet. For backup, I also had a page of QR codes
> pointing to the same images and audio clips on my local hard disk.

The trick is being well organized. You could conceivably "index"
every slide, etc. But, the printed index then gets tedious to
peruse while standing in front of a crowd. OTOH, if you can reduce
it to a few key points/locations, then you can *quickly* find and
access the required point in the presentation "in stride".

I have since come to use barcodes as "generic identifiers" with
which to associate actions. E.g., "scan" a barcode printed on
an electronic scale and the weight currently displayed on that
scale is fetched (over the network) and associated with the
item you've previously indicated (by scanning *its* barcode)
after subtracting the weight of the conveyance (i.e., "cart")
on which the item resides *while* being weighed (known by
looking up the recorded weight associated with the barcode
applied to that conveyance!)

[All the while, never having to encode any "significance" in
the identifiers presented by those barcodes: 1, 2, 3, 97662,
etc.]

I'd like to migrate this technology to QR codes but not sure
you can scan a QR code as effectively "while being careless"
with positioning the camera/scanner (which is relatively easy
to achieve with barcodes!).

[Joerg]

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Aug 2013 15:46:41 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> So is there any pointing device company left that knows how to build
>> quality products?
>
> Building a quality product is easy. Just throw lots of money at it.
> <http://most-expensive.com/computer-mouse>
> $24,180 for the mouse.
>
> Maybe a titanium mouse:
> <http://www.intelligent-design.nl/titanium_mouse.php>
> Only 400 Euros ($534).
>
> I think these ideas will eventually turn into overpriced quality
> products:
> <http://www.yankodesign.com/?s=computer+mouse>
>

This one should appeal to many ex-military folks:

http://www.plundertech.com/grenade-mouse/

> I suspect that industrial and medical mice are better built:
> <http://www.autoconception.com/bmw-group-designworksusa-designs-thermaltake%C2%B4s-level-10-m-computer-mouse/>
> <http://mmouse.ttesports.com>
> Very cool, but no pricing info.
>
> This mouse doesn't last very long, but sure is great while it lasts:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=chocolate+mousse&tbm=isch>
> Ok, not quite a mouse. Maybe one of these instead:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=chocolate+computer+mouse&tbm=isch
>
> Maybe if you buy a mouse that doesn't have any rubber parts, you'll be
> ok?
>

Sure but I'd have to find one with this much RF range. Alternatively I
could try to scrape it all off real good and paint it with something
very durable.

[Joerg]

But when asked they'll say that all those shoes were on sale :-)

[Gonadicus]

On 11/08/2013 7:39 AM, Joerg wrote:
> Phil Hobbs wrote:

>> On 8/10/2013 7:24 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>> Martin Riddle wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 10 Aug 2013 16:00:43 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Folks,
>>>>>
>>>>> Got a Microsoft Bluetooth Mouse 5000, built in 2008 according to
>>>>> sticker. Just grabbed it and it stuck to my thumb. Eeeuw. The top
>>>>> surface of the rubber on its sides has started that dreaded dissolving
>>>>> process that you sometimes see in cheap Chinese stuff. Like with yard
>>>>> shovel handles et cetera. But is this supposed to happen on a Microsoft
>>>>> brand name product? Anyone know a fix for that mouse?
>>>>
>>>> Yea, Buy a new one. Logitech perhaps.
>>>>
>>>

>>> Hate to throw stuff away but I guess I need to switch brands then.

>>>
>>>
>>>> Had this happen to my truck. The bracket the inside spare tire bolts
>>>> to had a 2 feet or so of soft rubber wrapped around it. After 12 years
>>>> it turned into goo. Yucky mess. Probably Ozone is the likely agent.
>>>>
>>>

>>> Looks like some companies know how to make good rubber and others don't.
>>> I have stuff with rubber surfaces from the 50's and it's still good.
>>>
>>
>> The other approach is to carefully remove the rubber part, make a
>> plaster mould, and cast a replacement out of some nice material like
>> Devcon Flexane 30. (That's a great method for irreplaceable parts, but
>> not so much for a mouse!)
>>
>
> Hey, that's an idea. I still have some black leather. Now a mouse with
> leather sides, that would be something. Just not sure with what to glue
> it on. It goes around a corner so it would have to hold on real good.
>


You can get thin 1mm to 4mm thick polyurethane spongy rubber with self
adhesive backing. I used it to replace the rubber on my MS wireless
mouse when it turned to shite like yours had. I just shaved the corners
with a razor blade. Felt different at first but I soon adapted to it.

I can't remember where I got it from probably Element 14 or even dollar
store. Sometimes its in packs to make feet for small furniture /
ornaments etc.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 11 Aug 2013 16:21:21 -0700, Don Y <th...@isnotme.com> wrote:

>The worse problem with felt is that it allows the devices to slip
>and slide on the surface supporting them. Sometimes, this can be
>A Good Thing. More often than not, IME, it's a liability.

For no-slip, I use Awesome Goo:
<http://www.awesomegoo.com>
It comes in a squeeze tube and initially looks like dull tar. Hit it
with a heat gun, or submerge it in hot water, and it sets to hard
rubber. I've been using it mostly for shoe repair, but have also
fixed some cables, rubber feet, broken plastic, etc. No sign of any
loss of vulcanization in about 2 years. The catch is that it's
expensive at $10 per tube. If you want cheaper, try Shoe Goo or black
RTV from a caulking gun, but I think that urethane based Awesome Goo
is closer to the original rubber feet than silicone rubber.

>>> For large groups <http://www.gyration.com/products/air-mouse-go-plus>
>>
>> I had two of those. They lasted about 1 month before one of my
>> customers "borrowed" them, and refused to return it. When I bought a
>> replacement, it too was "borrowed". I gave up.
>
>Yes, frustrating. Esp as I imagine it was just curiosity that
>led to their "disappearance". If I had wanted to continue using
>these devices, I probably would have gutted one and brought it
>along with me "for show and tell" so folks could see what's
>inside without walking off with mine!

I use a cordless presenters mouse around my office. I typically
update and repair several computers at the same time, located on
various workbenches or desks around the office. Being able to click
"OK" to the prompts from across the room is a time saver. Every time
a customer sees me doing that, they want the mouse. Nobody has stolen
any of the mice, but I've had quite a few customer ask to "borrow"
them so they could try them out. Even at $100/ea, they're interested.
I eventually get paid for them, but only if I remember to invoice.
Oddly, nobody has "borrowed" any of the $10 cheapo BlueTooth
presenters mice that I've been buying off eBay.

>The trick is being well organized.

That eliminates me. I make no claim to being organized. I recently
tore my office apart looking for something. I eventually found it,
but also found multiple pens, scratch pads, whisk brooms, and other
items where it was easier to buy a replacement than to find the
original. Bar codes won't help if it's buried under layers of junk.

>I'd like to migrate this technology to QR codes but not sure
>you can scan a QR code as effectively "while being careless"
>with positioning the camera/scanner (which is relatively easy
>to achieve with barcodes!).

It varies. Try it with a smartphone using Red Laser:
<http://redlaser.com>
The problem is that the phone will need to have an autofocus feature.
It takes a few seconds to focus, which is frustrating. Older
smartphones, that do not autofocus, simply don't work. For example,
my iPhone 3G barely functioned reading QR codes, while a 3GS or later
works quite nicely.

The commodity USB camera for a laptop is much the same. If the camera
has autofocus, it will work. If it's fixed focus, you will have
trouble framing the QR code in the reader application window,
especially if you're using different size QR codes. Since the laser
bar code readers don't have a focus problem, they're certainly faster.
I printed my QR codes to match the focus setting of my USB camera, so
the focus was always correct, but that doesn't work with random QR
codes off the internet. Here's my contact info in QR:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/crud/Jeff-Liebermann-QR.jpg>

[bitrex]

On 8/11/2013 6:46 PM, Joerg wrote:
> bitrex wrote:
>> On 8/10/2013 7:19 PM, Martin Riddle wrote:
>>> On Sat, 10 Aug 2013 16:00:43 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Folks,
>>>>
>>>> Got a Microsoft Bluetooth Mouse 5000, built in 2008 according to
>>>> sticker. Just grabbed it and it stuck to my thumb. Eeeuw. The top
>>>> surface of the rubber on its sides has started that dreaded dissolving
>>>> process that you sometimes see in cheap Chinese stuff. Like with yard
>>>> shovel handles et cetera. But is this supposed to happen on a Microsoft
>>>> brand name product? Anyone know a fix for that mouse?
>>>
>>> Yea, Buy a new one. Logitech perhaps.
>>>
>>> Had this happen to my truck. The bracket the inside spare tire bolts
>>> to had a 2 feet or so of soft rubber wrapped around it. After 12 years
>>> it turned into goo. Yucky mess. Probably Ozone is the likely agent.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>
>> I have a Logitech M510 Bluetooth mouse, and the same thing has happened,
>> only faster. The rubber over the area where the thumb goes has
>> completely disintegrated into little pieces in about 9 months.
>>
>
> Yikes, that would make this product fall under the category junk. I hope
> you have read them the riot act.
>

I'm wondering if maybe I just have seriously corrosive finger oils!

[Jasen Betts]

On 2013-08-11, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:

> Drivel: I always bring at least 3 different ways to display my slide
> show pictures. Every time I've given my song and dance, there's
> always something broken or missing. For example, my last song and
> dance (on cell phones and brain cancer), had a perfectly good working
> overhead projector, but the remote control and cables were missing. I
> had to use a much smaller LED projector instead. I once gave a slide
> show using the composite video output from my xv6700 smart phone into
> a TV screen. One time, everything failed, including my computer.
> However, I had a ring binder with color prints of my slides, which I
> passed around the audience. There has been some discussion that my
> presence might be causing these equipment failures.

Could it be the equipment objecting to your source material?
:^)

--
⚂⚃ 100% natural

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---

[Joerg]

Good idea. But the self-adhesive backing has to be very durable.

What is sad is the poor customer contact of companies like Microsoft.
Despite looking for quite a while I could not find a single useful email
address.

[Joerg]

Well, even if that was the case they are supposed to test for all that.
I have the impression that the thoroughness of engineering processes is
seriously going downhill in some industries. Just had a chat with an
automotive electronics engineer. I've always had little respect for
their products and it seems it's not their fault. He is a very
knowledgeable guy. But management is screwed up, pushing people and
projects too hard and in the wake there are the consequences such as
shoddy product design.

[Cydrome Leader]

Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Folks,
>
> Got a Microsoft Bluetooth Mouse 5000, built in 2008 according to
> sticker. Just grabbed it and it stuck to my thumb. Eeeuw. The top
> surface of the rubber on its sides has started that dreaded dissolving
> process that you sometimes see in cheap Chinese stuff. Like with yard
> shovel handles et cetera. But is this supposed to happen on a Microsoft
> brand name product? Anyone know a fix for that mouse?

that may be old enough to have their lifetime warranty on mice and stuff
like that.

I've used it before too (the obscure warranty) - they sent a modern
equivalent to what I had fail, which was one of the early optical mice
that didn't require the silly grid mousepad.

[Joerg]

Interesting, didn't know it has a lifetime warranty. How did you contact
them? All I found was a 1-800 number which normally is very
time-consuming to get through the usual "listen to all blah-blah-blah
because the options have changed".

[Michael A. Terrell]

Phil Hobbs wrote:
> >
> Save the Naugas!


Come on, Phil. Everyone knows that's why Naugas, hide...


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

[Michael A. Terrell]

Jim Thompson wrote:
>
> On Sat, 10 Aug 2013 16:00:43 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>

> wrote:
>
> >Folks,
> >
> >Got a Microsoft Bluetooth Mouse 5000, built in 2008 according to
> >sticker. Just grabbed it and it stuck to my thumb. Eeeuw. The top
> >surface of the rubber on its sides has started that dreaded dissolving
> >process that you sometimes see in cheap Chinese stuff. Like with yard
> >shovel handles et cetera. But is this supposed to happen on a Microsoft
> >brand name product? Anyone know a fix for that mouse?
>

> Buy a new one ?:-}


When did Microsoft ever make any hardware? Sure, they slap their
name on stuff, but did they actually make it? Also, what is the
expected life of a mouse? Maybe he needs to upgrade to a Rat 1.0?

[Michael A. Terrell]

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
> On Sun, 11 Aug 2013 15:46:41 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
> wrote:
>
> >So is there any pointing device company left that knows how to build
> >quality products?
>
> Building a quality product is easy. Just throw lots of money at it.
> <http://most-expensive.com/computer-mouse>
> $24,180 for the mouse.
>
> Maybe a titanium mouse:
> <http://www.intelligent-design.nl/titanium_mouse.php>
> Only 400 Euros ($534).
>
> I think these ideas will eventually turn into overpriced quality
> products:
> <http://www.yankodesign.com/?s=computer+mouse>
>
> I suspect that industrial and medical mice are better built:
> <http://www.autoconception.com/bmw-group-designworksusa-designs-thermaltake%C2%B4s-level-10-m-computer-mouse/>
> <http://mmouse.ttesports.com>
> Very cool, but no pricing info.
>
> This mouse doesn't last very long, but sure is great while it lasts:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=chocolate+mousse&tbm=isch>
> Ok, not quite a mouse. Maybe one of these instead:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=chocolate+computer+mouse&tbm=isch
>
> Maybe if you buy a mouse that doesn't have any rubber parts, you'll be
> ok?

Have you ever seen one of the oak mice, and the matching keyboards?
Geeks.com used to get small batches of them, but sadly www.Geeks.com is
no more.

[Joerg]

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
> Jim Thompson wrote:
>> On Sat, 10 Aug 2013 16:00:43 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Folks,
>>>
>>> Got a Microsoft Bluetooth Mouse 5000, built in 2008 according to
>>> sticker. Just grabbed it and it stuck to my thumb. Eeeuw. The top
>>> surface of the rubber on its sides has started that dreaded dissolving
>>> process that you sometimes see in cheap Chinese stuff. Like with yard
>>> shovel handles et cetera. But is this supposed to happen on a Microsoft
>>> brand name product? Anyone know a fix for that mouse?
>> Buy a new one ?:-}
>
>
> When did Microsoft ever make any hardware? Sure, they slap their
> name on stuff, but did they actually make it? Also, what is the
> expected life of a mouse? Maybe he needs to upgrade to a Rat 1.0?
>

http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/html/pbPage.PDP/productID.282124000?tid=Gm3FdeFj&cid=5250&pcrid=2930343364&pkw=xbox&pmt=e&WT.srch=1&WT.mc_id=pointitsem_Microsoft+US_bing_5+-+Xbox+NEW&WT.term=xbox&WT.campaign=5+-+Xbox+NEW&WT.content=Gm3FdeFj&WT.source=bing&WT.medium=cpc

[Don Y]

Hi Jeff,

On 8/11/2013 7:55 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Aug 2013 16:21:21 -0700, Don Y <th...@isnotme.com> wrote:
>
>> The worse problem with felt is that it allows the devices to slip
>> and slide on the surface supporting them. Sometimes, this can be
>> A Good Thing. More often than not, IME, it's a liability.
>
> For no-slip, I use Awesome Goo:
> <http://www.awesomegoo.com>
> It comes in a squeeze tube and initially looks like dull tar. Hit it
> with a heat gun, or submerge it in hot water, and it sets to hard
> rubber. I've been using it mostly for shoe repair, but have also
> fixed some cables, rubber feet, broken plastic, etc. No sign of any
> loss of vulcanization in about 2 years. The catch is that it's
> expensive at $10 per tube. If you want cheaper, try Shoe Goo or black
> RTV from a caulking gun, but I think that urethane based Awesome Goo
> is closer to the original rubber feet than silicone rubber.

I'd be leery of trying "yet another synthetic" -- only to discover
at some future date that it, too, has gone to hell and cost me
some grief having to refinish a piece of furniture, etc.

I've just learned to NOT expect things of "insufficient mass" to
be immobile. Worst in this regard is a high-speed inkjet I
have. *Best* is a large server that I can freely reposition
without having to remove the stuff piled atop it!

>>>> For large groups <http://www.gyration.com/products/air-mouse-go-plus>
>>>
>>> I had two of those. They lasted about 1 month before one of my
>>> customers "borrowed" them, and refused to return it. When I bought a
>>> replacement, it too was "borrowed". I gave up.
>>
>> Yes, frustrating. Esp as I imagine it was just curiosity that
>> led to their "disappearance". If I had wanted to continue using
>> these devices, I probably would have gutted one and brought it
>> along with me "for show and tell" so folks could see what's
>> inside without walking off with mine!
>
> I use a cordless presenters mouse around my office. I typically
> update and repair several computers at the same time, located on
> various workbenches or desks around the office. Being able to click
> "OK" to the prompts from across the room is a time saver. Every time

I can't afford to use wireless devices in the office as I'd
never be able to ensure the "right" machine was responding
(pre BT). So, I only use BT with devices that I *know* are
paired so there is no ambiguity (but, then I need to keep
track of which mouse/keyboard goes with which machine, etc.)

> a customer sees me doing that, they want the mouse. Nobody has stolen

No one is allowed in my office. If I need to show something
to a client, I go to them (or, send the demo to them). Don't
want to risk someone seeing something that they *shouldn't*...

> any of the mice, but I've had quite a few customer ask to "borrow"
> them so they could try them out. Even at $100/ea, they're interested.
> I eventually get paid for them, but only if I remember to invoice.
> Oddly, nobody has "borrowed" any of the $10 cheapo BlueTooth
> presenters mice that I've been buying off eBay.

Imagine that! ;-)

>> The trick is being well organized.
>
> That eliminates me. I make no claim to being organized. I recently
> tore my office apart looking for something. I eventually found it,
> but also found multiple pens, scratch pads, whisk brooms, and other
> items where it was easier to buy a replacement than to find the
> original. Bar codes won't help if it's buried under layers of junk.

Being organized in physical space is very different than being
organized during a *presentation*. My office is a "controlled
mess". OTOH, I can find a (hand) tool, or particular "consumable"
with my eyes closed.

Most distressing is the state of my numerous "file systems" :<

>> I'd like to migrate this technology to QR codes but not sure
>> you can scan a QR code as effectively "while being careless"
>> with positioning the camera/scanner (which is relatively easy
>> to achieve with barcodes!).
>
> It varies. Try it with a smartphone using Red Laser:
> <http://redlaser.com>
> The problem is that the phone will need to have an autofocus feature.
> It takes a few seconds to focus, which is frustrating. Older

Then, not usable. E.g., with a barcode scanner, you can be
pretty lazy and still capture the barcode accurately. Biggest
issue is making sure the reader doesn't "hit" on a "foreign"
barcode (so, you encode "your" labels and don't let the
scanner itself indicate a valid read but rely on *your*
software to perform that indication -- after verifying it's
one of "your" labels)

> smartphones, that do not autofocus, simply don't work. For example,
> my iPhone 3G barely functioned reading QR codes, while a 3GS or later
> works quite nicely.
>
> The commodity USB camera for a laptop is much the same. If the camera
> has autofocus, it will work. If it's fixed focus, you will have
> trouble framing the QR code in the reader application window,
> especially if you're using different size QR codes. Since the laser
> bar code readers don't have a focus problem, they're certainly faster.

Even contact readers -- as long as you span the length of the label.

I'd like QR codes with the convenience and first-pass-read-rate
of barcodes!

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 12 Aug 2013 19:39:50 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
<mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Have you ever seen one of the oak mice, and the matching keyboards?
>Geeks.com used to get small batches of them, but sadly www.Geeks.com is
>no more.

Yep. I was involved in making a few. At $200/ea, we made money. When
they became available for under $50, we bailed out. I kept some for
myself, but they all disappeared as gifts over the year. Others can
be found online, mostly on eBay and Amazon.

Hint: Start with Google images and Google Shopping with a search for
"wood computer mouse":
<https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=wooden+computer+mouse>
Click on any picture that looks interesting.

Some items for sale.
<http://www.ebay.com/itm/280883120817> $17
<http://www.ebay.com/itm/400504941729> $15
<http://www.ebay.com/itm/261251563913> $30
<http://www.ebay.com/itm/261251564315> $30
<http://www.ebay.com/itm/261251564315> $30
<http://www.ebay.com/itm/110911716306> $20
<http://www.ebay.com/itm/161076070393> $170
<http://www.hacoa.net/shopdetail/004000000014/price>
<http://www.amazon.com/IMPECCA-KBB500C-Bamboo-Handcrafted-Keyboard/dp/B003VOOOKY>
<http://www.amazon.com/Impecca-Usa-Bamboo-Wirelesskeyboard-Mous/dp/B0056UVXKK/>
<http://www.amazon.com/Natural-Bamboo-Keyboard-Mouse-Combo/dp/B008K3O6WM/>
(etc)...

Don't forget to buy a wooden mouse pad, keyboard, key tops, iphone
case, and such:
<http://lazerwood.myshopify.com/collections/keyboards>

However, if you're a control freak, you might consider a more feature
infested alternative:
<http://www.3dconnexion.com/products/spacepilot-pro.html>
or perhaps their minimalist 3D mouse:
<http://www.3dconnexion.com/products/spacenavigator.html>
Sorry. Only available in plastic.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 12 Aug 2013 19:37:38 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
<mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>When did Microsoft ever make any hardware? Sure, they slap their
>name on stuff, but did they actually make it?

List of Microsoft Hardware:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_hardware>
Most companies outsource their manufacturing to China these days. If
that were the criteria for "making" a product, there would be few US
companies that qualify.

Microsoft actually did manufacture one board themselves:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z-80_SoftCard>

>Also, what is the
>expected life of a mouse? Maybe he needs to upgrade to a Rat 1.0?

A gray house mouse lives about a year as limited by predators and food
supply. The lifespan of a Microsoft Mouse varies between about an
hour if operated by young children to many years if kept clean and
filth free. Your mileage may vary.

The RAT is a weird looking gaming mouse which would probably be an
improvement over an MS mouse:
<http://www.cyborggaming.com/prod/rat9.htm>
<http://www.cyborggaming.com/prod/rat7.htm>
<http://www.cyborggaming.com/prod/rat5.htm>
<http://www.cyborggaming.com/prod/rat3.htm>
$60 to $135.

[Don Y]

Hi Jeff,

On 8/13/2013 8:19 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

[wooden mice]

> Hint: Start with Google images and Google Shopping with a search for
> "wood computer mouse":
> <https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=wooden+computer+mouse>
> Click on any picture that looks interesting.
>

> Don't forget to buy a wooden mouse pad, keyboard, key tops, iphone
> case, and such:
> <http://lazerwood.myshopify.com/collections/keyboards>

When I first started doing CAD work, I had mounted a bowling ball
on a set of pillow blocks with a pair of encoders. I.e., giant
trackball.

This works *great* for very fine motion (obviously, controlled
with your feet) and lets you keep your hands on keyboard or
digitizing tablet. I.e., rest your heel on the stationary
part of the enclosure and use the ball of your foot to nudge
the bowling ball a little in each direction, etc.

The real problem is you can't use it for any *large* motions
cuz the ball has way too much inertial.

It also required a high workbench/surface as your foot ended
up almost 12 inches above the floor while "in use".

> However, if you're a control freak, you might consider a more feature
> infested alternative:
> <http://www.3dconnexion.com/products/spacepilot-pro.html>
> or perhaps their minimalist 3D mouse:
> <http://www.3dconnexion.com/products/spacenavigator.html>
> Sorry. Only available in plastic.

I am very fond of their Space Balls as motion controllers.
Takes a bit of getting used to but definitely convenient
when working with 3D models!

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 13 Aug 2013 12:25:58 -0700, Don Y <th...@isnotme.com> wrote:

>When I first started doing CAD work, I had mounted a bowling ball
>on a set of pillow blocks with a pair of encoders. I.e., giant
>trackball.

I used a small size bowling ball and furniture casters to do the same
thing. However, mine was on a desktop. It was prototype for cursor
control on a radar display. The eventually opted for a joystick, even
though the bowling balls worked better.

>This works *great* for very fine motion (obviously, controlled
>with your feet) and lets you keep your hands on keyboard or
>digitizing tablet. I.e., rest your heel on the stationary
>part of the enclosure and use the ball of your foot to nudge
>the bowling ball a little in each direction, etc.
>
>The real problem is you can't use it for any *large* motions
>cuz the ball has way too much inertial.

It had a felt pad on the bottom of the ball to add some friction. That
kept it from going out of control and also kept the ball clean. It
also had a crude form of velocity sensing, which helped with the
hacked Pong game that the programmer wrote for "testing". This wasn't
my project so all I was allowed to do was watch.

>It also required a high workbench/surface as your foot ended
>up almost 12 inches above the floor while "in use".

The usual "foot mouse" was a block of something on carpet casters.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Footmouse>
I play organ (badly) which involves foot pedals for the low notes. I
wanted to connect some foot pedals to the function keys and number
keys on a keyboard. Test marketing among my friends and coworkers
soon showed that this was a truly lousy idea. I never built the
prototype.

>> However, if you're a control freak, you might consider a more feature
>> infested alternative:
>> <http://www.3dconnexion.com/products/spacepilot-pro.html>
>> or perhaps their minimalist 3D mouse:
>> <http://www.3dconnexion.com/products/spacenavigator.html>
>> Sorry. Only available in plastic.
>
>I am very fond of their Space Balls as motion controllers.
>Takes a bit of getting used to but definitely convenient
>when working with 3D models!

That would be the Spaceball 5000.
<http://www.evermotion.org/tutorials/show/7916/3dconnexion-s-spaceball-5000-review>
It doesn't appear on the 3DConnexion web pile, so I guess they no
longer sell it. I'm trying to learn SketchUp 2013 and am getting
tried of switching views constantly when inputting 3D lines. Think
the mouse will help?

[Cydrome Leader]

I don't know that your has this warranty, but for me I kept the box with
the details and then emailed them and they took care of it.

[Joerg]

Mine was an OEM deal from Newegg, purchased along with lots of other stuff:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16826105238

I still have the packing list, that was all that came with it. But the
links says these only have a 1-year warranty :-(

Anyhow, it's sad that such companies have stooped so low when it comes
to product quality. It doesn't matter where it's made, if the comapany's
name is on there then that's the reputation that gets tarnished.

[Don Y]

Hi Jeff,

On 8/13/2013 1:46 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Aug 2013 12:25:58 -0700, Don Y <th...@isnotme.com> wrote:
>
>> When I first started doing CAD work, I had mounted a bowling ball
>> on a set of pillow blocks with a pair of encoders. I.e., giant
>> trackball.
>
> I used a small size bowling ball and furniture casters to do the same
> thing. However, mine was on a desktop. It was prototype for cursor
> control on a radar display. The eventually opted for a joystick, even
> though the bowling balls worked better.

Ages ago, Atari (?) had some arcade pieces ("Football" comes to
mind) that used a large trackball for user input. The ball
was about the size of a bocce "ball" (not the boccino/pallino
but the larger balls).

This was great for use with a *palm* (not a thumb or forefingers
like modern trackballs). But, it would have been too small for
the sole of the foot (esp with a shoe on!).

Having already lost much desktop space to digitizing tablet
(12x12 or 12x18), I was looking for a way to get the mouse off
the desktop. Floor was the only other place!

>> This works *great* for very fine motion (obviously, controlled
>> with your feet) and lets you keep your hands on keyboard or
>> digitizing tablet. I.e., rest your heel on the stationary
>> part of the enclosure and use the ball of your foot to nudge
>> the bowling ball a little in each direction, etc.
>>
>> The real problem is you can't use it for any *large* motions
>> cuz the ball has way too much inertial.
>
> It had a felt pad on the bottom of the ball to add some friction. That
> kept it from going out of control and also kept the ball clean. It
> also had a crude form of velocity sensing, which helped with the
> hacked Pong game that the programmer wrote for "testing". This wasn't
> my project so all I was allowed to do was watch.

I had originally designed an "electronic gearbox" that I could
manipulate with my foot. Basically, just a set of programmable
dividers in the X/Y pulse trains. But, this was too clumsy.
Using your foot for anything other than *tiny* movements proved
to be a waste of time. So, use other pointing tools to get in
the general area and then nudge things along with the "foot"ball.

But, as I said, if you aren't seated *high* so the sole of your
foot can comfortably rest on the ball, it's difficult to use.
You'd have to downsize the ball to be able to rest a heel on
the ground and manipulate the ball with the ball of your foot.

>> It also required a high workbench/surface as your foot ended
>> up almost 12 inches above the floor while "in use".
>
> The usual "foot mouse" was a block of something on carpet casters.
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Footmouse>
> I play organ (badly) which involves foot pedals for the low notes. I
> wanted to connect some foot pedals to the function keys and number
> keys on a keyboard. Test marketing among my friends and coworkers
> soon showed that this was a truly lousy idea. I never built the
> prototype.

I have a set of "footswitches" from a dictation system that I want
to experiment with. I've found that a "thumb-ball" is OK for
fine positioning -- but, sucks when you try to activate the
"mouse buttons" with your fingers WITHOUT altering the position
of your thumb on the ball (and, thus, the cursor on the screen).
The foot pedals may be a viable option.

(I've also tried a "finger-microtrackball" -- you *wear* it
like a ring -- which is OK. But, interferes with typing. :< )

>>> However, if you're a control freak, you might consider a more feature
>>> infested alternative:
>>> <http://www.3dconnexion.com/products/spacepilot-pro.html>
>>> or perhaps their minimalist 3D mouse:
>>> <http://www.3dconnexion.com/products/spacenavigator.html>
>>> Sorry. Only available in plastic.
>>
>> I am very fond of their Space Balls as motion controllers.
>> Takes a bit of getting used to but definitely convenient
>> when working with 3D models!
>
> That would be the Spaceball 5000.
> <http://www.evermotion.org/tutorials/show/7916/3dconnexion-s-spaceball-5000-review>

I think mine are older than that. 4000's rebadged as "IBM"

> It doesn't appear on the 3DConnexion web pile, so I guess they no
> longer sell it. I'm trying to learn SketchUp 2013 and am getting
> tried of switching views constantly when inputting 3D lines. Think
> the mouse will help?

No idea re: *mouse*. Spaceball *could* help if you got adept
with it's use. The big problem is it's a "relative" control
(like so many) and motion control almost wants an *absolute*
control (i.e., twist the controller into a particular orientation
and the model follows that orientation).

As a result, you have to get a feel for how much turn, push/pull, twist,
etc. you need to apply to "nudge" the model in the desired direction
(which, of course, also depends on the complexity of the model,
redrawing speed, CPU horsepower, etc.)

Finally, you have to learn to let your hands "think" independently.
So, you're moving the pointing device with the dominant hand
(typ right) *while* manipulating the motion controller with the
other hand. (walk and chew gum)

It's worth playing with if you have an opportunity!

[Michael A. Terrell]

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

The only Apple products around here are used for door stops.

> However, if you're a control freak, you might consider a more feature
> infested alternative:
> <http://www.3dconnexion.com/products/spacepilot-pro.html>
> or perhaps their minimalist 3D mouse:
> <http://www.3dconnexion.com/products/spacenavigator.html>
> Sorry. Only available in plastic.


--

[Michael A. Terrell]

"Upgrade to Rat 1.0" was what I told a Veteran I knew who called to
tell me that the mice he was catching in his garage were exploding when
he plugged them in.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 13 Aug 2013 21:42:01 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
<mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> "Upgrade to Rat 1.0" was what I told a Veteran I knew who called to
>tell me that the mice he was catching in his garage were exploding when
>he plugged them in.

Sorry, the name is already taken:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploding_White_Mice>

Trivia: The frozen mice and rats sold a snake and reptiles at pet
stores sometime become bloated when improperly thawed and will explode
with an accompanying horrible stench when bitten.

How did we ever drift off topic this far?

[Michael A. Terrell]

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
> On Tue, 13 Aug 2013 21:42:01 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
> <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > "Upgrade to Rat 1.0" was what I told a Veteran I knew who called to
> >tell me that the mice he was catching in his garage were exploding when
> >he plugged them in.
>
> Sorry, the name is already taken:
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploding_White_Mice>
>
> Trivia: The frozen mice and rats sold a snake and reptiles at pet
> stores sometime become bloated when improperly thawed and will explode
> with an accompanying horrible stench when bitten.
>
> How did we ever drift off topic this far?

Boredom, on my part. I'm not sure about you, though. ;-)

[Michael A. Terrell]

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
> On Tue, 13 Aug 2013 21:42:01 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
> <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > "Upgrade to Rat 1.0" was what I told a Veteran I knew who called to
> >tell me that the mice he was catching in his garage were exploding when
> >he plugged them in.
>
> Sorry, the name is already taken:
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploding_White_Mice>
>
> Trivia: The frozen mice and rats sold a snake and reptiles at pet
> stores sometime become bloated when improperly thawed and will explode
> with an accompanying horrible stench when bitten.
>
> How did we ever drift off topic this far?

Boredom, on my part. I'm not sure about you, though. ;-)

[Cydrome Leader]

You may lose with that oem version. Here's the warranty statement on the
(probably retail) input devices:

http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/en-us/warranties

I don't see your exact model listed, but they mention anything from 2 to 5
years for mice.

Worst case, you waste the time to send an email to them.

I came across a Tandberg tape library where most of the operator panel had
almost liquified. It was gummy, and pressing buttons on it left
fingerprints. It's completely disgusting, and clearly from a horrible
batch of plastic. The stuff is in a clean datacenter, so it's not like
somebody sprayed solvets or plasticizer on it.

[Joerg]

I can't find my mouse on there either. But where did you find the email
address to write to? The Microsoft web site only contains 1-800 numbers
where you get the run-around.

> I came across a Tandberg tape library where most of the operator panel had
> almost liquified. It was gummy, and pressing buttons on it left
> fingerprints. It's completely disgusting, and clearly from a horrible
> batch of plastic. The stuff is in a clean datacenter, so it's not like
> somebody sprayed solvets or plasticizer on it.
>

Puzzling. There seem to be companies who understand this stuff very
well, like Hewlett-Packard or Tektronix where I've never seen that
happen (got a lot of 20+ year old gear from them). Then there are some
companies who royally screw up with their plastics. So badly that it
starts to fall apart after very few years.

[jmlap...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, August 10, 2013 7:00:43 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
> Folks,
>
> Got a Microsoft Bluetooth Mouse 5000, built in 2008 according to
> sticker. Just grabbed it and it stuck to my thumb. Eeeuw. The top
> surface of the rubber on its sides has started that dreaded dissolving
> process that you sometimes see in cheap Chinese stuff. Like with yard
> shovel handles et cetera. But is this supposed to happen on a Microsoft
> brand name product? Anyone know a fix for that mouse?
>

> --
> Regards, Joerg
>
> http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Logitech and Microsoft made Mice and remotes with that disintegrating rubber on it. It gets old and sticky/nasty. Neither Microsoft nor Logitech stand behind their products as they hope you will just throw it out and buy new products to replace them. MY SOLUTION: Stop buying JUNK from them and vote with your money!
Maybe they will stop selling junk! I shouldn't have to spend an hour removing a rubber coating with chemicals or spraying the device with Plasti-dip spray to "fix" a piece of junk. James

[Joe Gwinn]

In article <96230350-a2f1-4411...@googlegroups.com>,

It's a urethane rubber that is reverting to the goo from which it was
made. Moisture speeds reversion. There is no fix, as the material
itself is changing (de-polymerizing to be exact), and will all revert
to goo.

The reason people use urethane rubber is that it is cheap, and easily
injection molded.

Probably the most annoying thing one can do is to attempt to return the
mouse to the maker, complaining of a latent design defect (the
warrantee is long over, but this problem was always present, albeit
undetected). This should be done noisily, in all manner of public
fora.

It's unlikely that the maker will replace the messy mouse, but perhaps
they will forbid use of urethane rubber (or at least cheap urethane
rubber) in future designs.


Joe Gwinn

[whit3rd]

On Sunday, August 11, 2013 9:56:45 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
> legg wrote:

> > Who the hell needs a Bluetooth mouse?

> For example, people who need to regularly do design reviews. Sometimes
> happens ad hoc, where it's not practical or there isn't time to spool
> the data onto a client PC. Or not permitted. Then I plop down my
> netbook, hook it to their projector and bingo. I can operate the PC from
> the presenter position up front with this mouse, but not with some
> others that have less range.

Also very handy for systems that mount on carts or other non-desk locations.
Big advantage over dongle-based wireless mice, of course, is that the
Bluetooth interface isn't a special matched unit. Get four or five
wireless mice+dongles circulating around with prototypes, and you'll NEVER have
the right pair.

[garet...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, August 10, 2013 at 4:00:43 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
> Folks,
>
> Got a Microsoft Bluetooth Mouse 5000, built in 2008 according to
> sticker. Just grabbed it and it stuck to my thumb. Eeeuw. The top
> surface of the rubber on its sides has started that dreaded dissolving
> process that you sometimes see in cheap Chinese stuff. Like with yard
> shovel handles et cetera. But is this supposed to happen on a Microsoft
> brand name product? Anyone know a fix for that mouse?
>
> --
> Regards, Joerg
>
> http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Maybe the solution is to get silicone caulking. Take the wheel out and then spread it over the top of the wheel whilst rotating it. Stick the wheel to a drill somehow (haven't figured that out) and use sandpaper to bring it back to shape. Caulking should last a very long time and will have the same texture.

[71b...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, August 10, 2013 at 4:00:43 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
> Folks,
>
> Got a Microsoft Bluetooth Mouse 5000, built in 2008 according to
> sticker. Just grabbed it and it stuck to my thumb. Eeeuw. The top
> surface of the rubber on its sides has started that dreaded dissolving
> process that you sometimes see in cheap Chinese stuff. Like with yard
> shovel handles et cetera. But is this supposed to happen on a Microsoft
> brand name product? Anyone know a fix for that mouse?
>
> --
> Regards, Joerg
>
> http://www.analogconsultants.com/

I had the same problem. I used 91% Rubbing alcohol from the drug store (not the weak 70% stuff) and a paper towel. It dissolves the rubber but takes several cycles of scrubbing with alcohol and drying to get it all off. A final wipedown with only a little alcohol on a clean paper towel takes the dissolved rubber stains off the rest of the mouse and polishes it up. Comes out nice and shiny with no more stickiness!