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Escrow Service and Counterfeit Goods
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Rick C
Apr 26, 2021, 4:39:51 PM4/26/21
to
An escrow service is about protecting the interest of both parties using the service. But there are some situations where there would appear to be irreconcilable differences that can not be resolved under the law to both party's satisfaction. One of those situations is the sale of what turn out to be counterfeit goods.
Escrow services typically require the buyer to return the item to get a refund. Under US law mailing counterfeit goods is a crime in either direction, even as a return. I don't know if other means of shipping is illegal or not. I haven't found any info on that.
So in the situation that the goods turn out to be counterfeit, should an escrow service require the return of the counterfeit goods? If that is indeed illegal, would that not make the entire deal an unenforceable contract? Seems a very murky area.
--
Rick C.
- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
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Escrow services typically require the buyer to return the item to get a refund. Under US law mailing counterfeit goods is a crime in either direction, even as a return. I don't know if other means of shipping is illegal or not. I haven't found any info on that.
So in the situation that the goods turn out to be counterfeit, should an escrow service require the return of the counterfeit goods? If that is indeed illegal, would that not make the entire deal an unenforceable contract? Seems a very murky area.
--
Rick C.
- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
bitrex
Apr 26, 2021, 5:24:20 PM4/26/21
to
On 4/26/2021 4:39 PM, Rick C wrote:
> An escrow service is about protecting the interest of both parties using the service. But there are some situations where there would appear to be irreconcilable differences that can not be resolved under the law to both party's satisfaction. One of those situations is the sale of what turn out to be counterfeit goods.
>
> Escrow services typically require the buyer to return the item to get a refund. Under US law mailing counterfeit goods is a crime in either direction, even as a return. I don't know if other means of shipping is illegal or not. I haven't found any info on that.
It's prohibited in outbound international mail:
> An escrow service is about protecting the interest of both parties using the service. But there are some situations where there would appear to be irreconcilable differences that can not be resolved under the law to both party's satisfaction. One of those situations is the sale of what turn out to be counterfeit goods.
>
> Escrow services typically require the buyer to return the item to get a refund. Under US law mailing counterfeit goods is a crime in either direction, even as a return. I don't know if other means of shipping is illegal or not. I haven't found any info on that.
<https://pe.usps.com/text/imm/immc1_015.htm>
And it's not a crime, intrinsically, they're just prohibited items.
Courier services usually have the same prohibition for international
shipments also
That it's somehow illegal to ship counterfeit items around domestically
to your hearts content as a private citizen to other private citizens,
or as a return to a corporate entity, for no financial gain on your
part, seems like nonsense.
> So in the situation that the goods turn out to be counterfeit, should an escrow service require the return of the counterfeit goods? If that is indeed illegal, would that not make the entire deal an unenforceable contract? Seems a very murky area.
>
is. If you're not trafficking in counterfeit goods, and you're not
shipping prohibited items in the particular circumstances that the
couriers prohibit shipping them I don't see what the problem is
Phil Allison
Apr 26, 2021, 7:32:27 PM4/26/21
to
gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
==========================
FYI I have been involved in such an case.
> So in the situation that the goods turn out to be counterfeit, should an escrow service require the return of the counterfeit goods?
** Not overseas, just proof of the items being counterfeit.
> If that is indeed illegal, would that not make the entire deal an unenforceable contract?
** Yes, contracts cannot make or allow either party do something illegal.
Whats up ? Got some bad semis from Asia?
...... Phil
==========================
> An escrow service is about protecting the interest of both parties using the service.
> But there are some situations where there would appear to be irreconcilable differences
> that can not be resolved under the law to both party's satisfaction.
> One of those situations is the sale of what turn out to be counterfeit goods.
>
> Escrow services typically require the buyer to return the item to get a refund.
>
> Under US law mailing counterfeit goods is a crime in either direction, even as a return.
** Only if it leaves the country.
> But there are some situations where there would appear to be irreconcilable differences
> that can not be resolved under the law to both party's satisfaction.
> One of those situations is the sale of what turn out to be counterfeit goods.
>
> Escrow services typically require the buyer to return the item to get a refund.
>
> Under US law mailing counterfeit goods is a crime in either direction, even as a return.
FYI I have been involved in such an case.
> So in the situation that the goods turn out to be counterfeit, should an escrow service require the return of the counterfeit goods?
> If that is indeed illegal, would that not make the entire deal an unenforceable contract?
Whats up ? Got some bad semis from Asia?
...... Phil
John Larkin
Apr 26, 2021, 7:50:43 PM4/26/21
to
bitrex
Apr 26, 2021, 8:41:09 PM4/26/21
to
<https://www.ebay.com/itm/322374615632>
They work well enough so long as you de-rate them on output power by
about half of what's claimed
Rick C
Apr 26, 2021, 9:04:47 PM4/26/21
to
On Monday, April 26, 2021 at 5:24:20 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
> On 4/26/2021 4:39 PM, Rick C wrote:
> > An escrow service is about protecting the interest of both parties using the service. But there are some situations where there would appear to be irreconcilable differences that can not be resolved under the law to both party's satisfaction. One of those situations is the sale of what turn out to be counterfeit goods.
> >
> > Escrow services typically require the buyer to return the item to get a refund. Under US law mailing counterfeit goods is a crime in either direction, even as a return. I don't know if other means of shipping is illegal or not. I haven't found any info on that.
> It's prohibited in outbound international mail:
>
> <https://pe.usps.com/text/imm/immc1_015.htm>
>
> And it's not a crime, intrinsically, they're just prohibited items.
> Courier services usually have the same prohibition for international
> shipments also
>
> That it's somehow illegal to ship counterfeit items around domestically
> to your hearts content as a private citizen to other private citizens,
> or as a return to a corporate entity, for no financial gain on your
> part, seems like nonsense.
I don't understand why you say "domestically". The goods were bought from China and need to be returned there.
> On 4/26/2021 4:39 PM, Rick C wrote:
> > An escrow service is about protecting the interest of both parties using the service. But there are some situations where there would appear to be irreconcilable differences that can not be resolved under the law to both party's satisfaction. One of those situations is the sale of what turn out to be counterfeit goods.
> >
> > Escrow services typically require the buyer to return the item to get a refund. Under US law mailing counterfeit goods is a crime in either direction, even as a return. I don't know if other means of shipping is illegal or not. I haven't found any info on that.
> It's prohibited in outbound international mail:
>
> <https://pe.usps.com/text/imm/immc1_015.htm>
>
> And it's not a crime, intrinsically, they're just prohibited items.
> Courier services usually have the same prohibition for international
> shipments also
>
> That it's somehow illegal to ship counterfeit items around domestically
> to your hearts content as a private citizen to other private citizens,
> or as a return to a corporate entity, for no financial gain on your
> part, seems like nonsense.
> > So in the situation that the goods turn out to be counterfeit, should an escrow service require the return of the counterfeit goods? If that is indeed illegal, would that not make the entire deal an unenforceable contract? Seems a very murky area.
> >
> The crime is "trafficking" and it's pretty well-defined what trafficking
> is. If you're not trafficking in counterfeit goods, and you're not
> shipping prohibited items in the particular circumstances that the
> couriers prohibit shipping them I don't see what the problem is
You seem to be constructing an argument without a basis in fact.
There is also the fact that this could be considered exactly "trafficking" with a significant penalty.
18 U.S. Code § 2320 - Trafficking in counterfeit goods or services
(a) Offenses.—Whoever intentionally—
(1) traffics in goods or services and knowingly uses a counterfeit mark on or in connection with such goods or services,
... snip other similar offenses ...
or attempts or conspires to violate any of paragraphs (1) through (4) shall be punished as provided in subsection (b).
(b) Penalties.—
(1) In general.—Whoever commits an offense under subsection (a)—
(A) if an individual, shall be fined not more than $2,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both, and, if a person other than an individual, shall be fined not more than $5,000,000; and
Second offense is $5 million dollars and 20 years. Seems rather excessive for what is essentially a financial crime. I see murderers get less time... well, maybe not in Texas or Florida.
--
Rick C.
+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Rick C
Apr 26, 2021, 9:15:24 PM4/26/21
to
At this point I don't even trust US suppliers as I have no experience with any of them other than the mainstream vendors. Vyrian in Texas claims to have parts, but their conversations tend toward "when can we get a PO?"
Interestingly enough I found some (not enough) parts on eBay from a guy who bought a reel for a new design just before the factory burned down. Once he found out the problem he respun the board for a different chip. Now he is making a bundle on his "misfortune". He will bring the chips to my contract assembler who happens to be an hour drive, where we will test them and exchange the funds. This I trust.
--
Rick C.
-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Rick C
Apr 26, 2021, 9:23:36 PM4/26/21
to
On Monday, April 26, 2021 at 8:41:09 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
> >
> I ordered five of these from China they sent me ten by mistake lol:
>
> <https://www.ebay.com/itm/322374615632>
>
> They work well enough so long as you de-rate them on output power by
> about half of what's claimed
If you look at the first four photos, the third is a mirror image. I see this a lot on the Internet and wonder why? Is this some sort of attempt to detect copying? I don't see how that image is any better by being reversed.
> >
> I ordered five of these from China they sent me ten by mistake lol:
>
> <https://www.ebay.com/itm/322374615632>
>
> They work well enough so long as you de-rate them on output power by
> about half of what's claimed
Also, what's up with what looks like an automotive fuse? Is that soldered in?
--
Rick C.
-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
bitrex
Apr 26, 2021, 9:30:28 PM4/26/21
to
On 4/26/2021 9:04 PM, Rick C wrote:
> On Monday, April 26, 2021 at 5:24:20 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
>> On 4/26/2021 4:39 PM, Rick C wrote:
>>> An escrow service is about protecting the interest of both parties using the service. But there are some situations where there would appear to be irreconcilable differences that can not be resolved under the law to both party's satisfaction. One of those situations is the sale of what turn out to be counterfeit goods.
>>>
>>> Escrow services typically require the buyer to return the item to get a refund. Under US law mailing counterfeit goods is a crime in either direction, even as a return. I don't know if other means of shipping is illegal or not. I haven't found any info on that.
>> It's prohibited in outbound international mail:
>>
>> <https://pe.usps.com/text/imm/immc1_015.htm>
>>
>> And it's not a crime, intrinsically, they're just prohibited items.
>> Courier services usually have the same prohibition for international
>> shipments also
>>
>> That it's somehow illegal to ship counterfeit items around domestically
>> to your hearts content as a private citizen to other private citizens,
>> or as a return to a corporate entity, for no financial gain on your
>> part, seems like nonsense.
>
> I don't understand why you say "domestically". The goods were bought from China and need to be returned there.
How am I supposed to know where or why or who you bought them from I'm
> On Monday, April 26, 2021 at 5:24:20 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
>> On 4/26/2021 4:39 PM, Rick C wrote:
>>> An escrow service is about protecting the interest of both parties using the service. But there are some situations where there would appear to be irreconcilable differences that can not be resolved under the law to both party's satisfaction. One of those situations is the sale of what turn out to be counterfeit goods.
>>>
>>> Escrow services typically require the buyer to return the item to get a refund. Under US law mailing counterfeit goods is a crime in either direction, even as a return. I don't know if other means of shipping is illegal or not. I haven't found any info on that.
>> It's prohibited in outbound international mail:
>>
>> <https://pe.usps.com/text/imm/immc1_015.htm>
>>
>> And it's not a crime, intrinsically, they're just prohibited items.
>> Courier services usually have the same prohibition for international
>> shipments also
>>
>> That it's somehow illegal to ship counterfeit items around domestically
>> to your hearts content as a private citizen to other private citizens,
>> or as a return to a corporate entity, for no financial gain on your
>> part, seems like nonsense.
>
> I don't understand why you say "domestically". The goods were bought from China and need to be returned there.
not a mind reader, damn.
bitrex
Apr 26, 2021, 9:35:37 PM4/26/21
to
On 4/26/2021 9:23 PM, Rick C wrote:
> On Monday, April 26, 2021 at 8:41:09 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
>>>
>> I ordered five of these from China they sent me ten by mistake lol:
>>
>> <https://www.ebay.com/itm/322374615632>
>>
>> They work well enough so long as you de-rate them on output power by
>> about half of what's claimed
>
> If you look at the first four photos, the third is a mirror image. I see this a lot on the Internet and wonder why? Is this some sort of attempt to detect copying? I don't see how that image is any better by being reversed.
There are lots that look like this that are variations on a theme, mine
> On Monday, April 26, 2021 at 8:41:09 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
>>>
>> I ordered five of these from China they sent me ten by mistake lol:
>>
>> <https://www.ebay.com/itm/322374615632>
>>
>> They work well enough so long as you de-rate them on output power by
>> about half of what's claimed
>
> If you look at the first four photos, the third is a mirror image. I see this a lot on the Internet and wonder why? Is this some sort of attempt to detect copying? I don't see how that image is any better by being reversed.
has two outputs that one has one, and the fan header and third cap is
populated. The -V output doesn't regulate properly unless the +V is
loaded, though.
> Also, what's up with what looks like an automotive fuse? Is that soldered in?
>
socketed. Probably didn't want to pay for a glass fuse + holder or make
the PCB any larger to accommodate it.
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com
Apr 26, 2021, 9:42:41 PM4/26/21
to
But we had some problems with our standard edge-launch SMA connectors.
A batch of boards were at and a bit over their max thickness tolerance
and the connectors wouldn't fit.
These are insanely cheap, they fit the boards, and they seem to be
quite nice.
https://tinyurl.com/3e4jf3r2
--
John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
The best designs are necessarily accidental.
Phil Allison
Apr 26, 2021, 9:42:51 PM4/26/21
to
gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
=========================
> The goods were bought from China and need to be returned there.
** Fraid doing that is illegal.
> > The crime is "trafficking" and it's pretty well-defined what trafficking
> > is. If you're not trafficking in counterfeit goods, and you're not
> > shipping prohibited items in the particular circumstances that the
> > couriers prohibit shipping them I don't see what the problem is
>
> I don't understand why you say this is not "trafficking".
** The words " no fininacial gain" arepretty simple.
> What else is trafficking other than selling counterfeit goods?
** Which you are NOT doing.
> Returning counterfeit goods for a refund is not substantially different from selling them in the first place.
** It is *very different* !!!!.
FYI:
I once bought 100 counterfeit MJ15003/4s from a local dealer.
I was lied to about the source being a Motorola agent, it was not.
He offered me a refund if I returned them.
By then, I knew I was dealing with a crook so I made sure he could not sell them on.
By removing all the ink markings with acetone.
Got a hot letter from his lawyer for doing that.
Sent a even even hotter reply to said lawyer.
Still got my refund cheque a few weeks later.....
> You seem to be constructing an argument without a basis in fact.
* * ROTFL - pot / kettle.
> There is also the fact that this could be considered exactly "trafficking" with a significant penalty.
>
> 18 U.S. Code § 2320 - Trafficking in counterfeit goods or services
** FFS get you hand off it wanker !!
...... Phil
=========================
> >
> > That it's somehow illegal to ship counterfeit items around domestically
> > to your hearts content as a private citizen to other private citizens,
> > or as a return to a corporate entity, for no financial gain on your
> > part, seems like nonsense.
> I don't understand why you say "domestically".
** Cos you made no distinction in your post.
> > That it's somehow illegal to ship counterfeit items around domestically
> > to your hearts content as a private citizen to other private citizens,
> > or as a return to a corporate entity, for no financial gain on your
> > part, seems like nonsense.
> I don't understand why you say "domestically".
> The goods were bought from China and need to be returned there.
> > The crime is "trafficking" and it's pretty well-defined what trafficking
> > is. If you're not trafficking in counterfeit goods, and you're not
> > shipping prohibited items in the particular circumstances that the
> > couriers prohibit shipping them I don't see what the problem is
>
> I don't understand why you say this is not "trafficking".
> What else is trafficking other than selling counterfeit goods?
> Returning counterfeit goods for a refund is not substantially different from selling them in the first place.
FYI:
I once bought 100 counterfeit MJ15003/4s from a local dealer.
I was lied to about the source being a Motorola agent, it was not.
He offered me a refund if I returned them.
By then, I knew I was dealing with a crook so I made sure he could not sell them on.
By removing all the ink markings with acetone.
Got a hot letter from his lawyer for doing that.
Sent a even even hotter reply to said lawyer.
Still got my refund cheque a few weeks later.....
> You seem to be constructing an argument without a basis in fact.
> There is also the fact that this could be considered exactly "trafficking" with a significant penalty.
>
> 18 U.S. Code § 2320 - Trafficking in counterfeit goods or services
...... Phil
Rick C
Apr 26, 2021, 9:48:25 PM4/26/21
to
--
Rick C.
+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Phil Allison
Apr 26, 2021, 9:56:49 PM4/26/21
to
gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
=============================
The post covered BOTH possibilities !!!!
Learn how to READ - you dumbfuck asshole
=============================
>
> > >> It's prohibited in outbound international mail:
> > >>
> > >> <https://pe.usps.com/text/imm/immc1_015.htm>
> > >>
> > >> And it's not a crime, intrinsically, they're just prohibited items.
> > >> Courier services usually have the same prohibition for international
> > >> shipments also
> > >>
> > >> That it's somehow illegal to ship counterfeit items around domestically
> > >> to your hearts content as a private citizen to other private citizens,
> > >> or as a return to a corporate entity, for no financial gain on your
> > >> part, seems like nonsense.
> > >
> > > I don't understand why you say "domestically". The goods were bought from China and need to be returned there.
> > How am I supposed to know where or why or who you bought them from I'm
> > not a mind reader, damn.
>
> Exactly. But you assumed,
** NO HE FUCKING DID NOT !!!!!!
> > >> It's prohibited in outbound international mail:
> > >>
> > >> <https://pe.usps.com/text/imm/immc1_015.htm>
> > >>
> > >> And it's not a crime, intrinsically, they're just prohibited items.
> > >> Courier services usually have the same prohibition for international
> > >> shipments also
> > >>
> > >> That it's somehow illegal to ship counterfeit items around domestically
> > >> to your hearts content as a private citizen to other private citizens,
> > >> or as a return to a corporate entity, for no financial gain on your
> > >> part, seems like nonsense.
> > >
> > > I don't understand why you say "domestically". The goods were bought from China and need to be returned there.
> > How am I supposed to know where or why or who you bought them from I'm
> > not a mind reader, damn.
>
> Exactly. But you assumed,
The post covered BOTH possibilities !!!!
Learn how to READ - you dumbfuck asshole
Sylvia Else
Apr 26, 2021, 9:58:26 PM4/26/21
to
something to an escrow service would meet the definition of trafficking
given in that section, and also whether the use of the mark in that
context satisfies the test in (f)(1)(A)(iv).
https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?hl=false&edition=2017&req=granuleid%3AUSC-1999-title18-section2320&num=0
Sylvia.
Phil Allison
Apr 26, 2021, 10:12:51 PM4/26/21
to
Sylvia Else wrote:
==============
** HUH ?????
Massive false assumption.
..... Phil
==============
>
> There would have to be considerable doubt as to whether returning
> something to an escrow service ...
> There would have to be considerable doubt as to whether returning
** HUH ?????
Massive false assumption.
..... Phil
Rick C
Apr 26, 2021, 10:48:47 PM4/26/21
to
Sure, someone could mount a defense. I simply don't want to have to even explain. I've made it very clear in my messages to the seller that I know the goods are counterfeits. The alleged original manufactured has said the markings are forgeries and I passed on that email to the seller. I certainly could not claim I was not aware the goods were counterfeits.
I don't see how there can be any question at all that the marks are intended "to deceive". What are you saying? The only question is that they were so poor, anyone with a minimal amount of knowledge of true AKM markings would know these were fakes. Still, you don't have to be a good counterfeiter to be a counterfeiter.
--
Rick C.
++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
bitrex
Apr 26, 2021, 10:58:08 PM4/26/21
to
experiments. There are only 3 chips, an ST UC3842 current-mode PWM
controller, LM358 comparator, 78L09 regulator. The FET is an "RU7088R":
<http://www.ruichips.com/uploads/file/20180818/20180818061108394.pdf>
The output isn't particularly clean, and the flyback transformer and
output caps are probably under-specced for the claimed 40W continuous,
70W peak.
> But we had some problems with our standard edge-launch SMA connectors.
> A batch of boards were at and a bit over their max thickness tolerance
> and the connectors wouldn't fit.
>
> These are insanely cheap, they fit the boards, and they seem to be
> quite nice.
>
> https://tinyurl.com/3e4jf3r2
>
can't find them anywhere from a US distributor. 14 pins, the wide ones
like 2" wide, not IDC you just friction-fit them in the socket.
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com
Apr 26, 2021, 11:42:04 PM4/26/21
to
Phil Allison
Apr 27, 2021, 3:23:13 AM4/27/21
to
Sylvia Else wrote:
=============
" These devices are all counterfeits and useless to me or anyone "
You are not gonna be liable for being misleading or fraudulent.
However, if you have reason to believe the supplier is regularly *dealing* in counterfeits and so likely to sell them on to another - you have every right to deface them.
This also has the added benefit of protecting you from suspicion of dealing in fakes.
..... Phil
=============
>>
> There would have to be considerable doubt as to whether returning
> something to an escrow service would meet the definition of trafficking
> given in that section, and also whether the use of the mark in that
> context satisfies the test in (f)(1)(A)(iv).
>
** Certainly, if you return items for a refund with a cover note saying :
> There would have to be considerable doubt as to whether returning
> something to an escrow service would meet the definition of trafficking
> given in that section, and also whether the use of the mark in that
> context satisfies the test in (f)(1)(A)(iv).
>
" These devices are all counterfeits and useless to me or anyone "
You are not gonna be liable for being misleading or fraudulent.
However, if you have reason to believe the supplier is regularly *dealing* in counterfeits and so likely to sell them on to another - you have every right to deface them.
This also has the added benefit of protecting you from suspicion of dealing in fakes.
..... Phil
Piotr Wyderski
Apr 27, 2021, 4:35:55 AM4/27/21
to
Rick C wrote:
> Under US law mailing counterfeit goods is a crime in either direction, even as a return.
So this law is stupid.
> Under US law mailing counterfeit goods is a crime in either direction, even as a return.
> I don't know if other means of shipping is illegal or not. I haven't found any info on that.
it is not genuine and you deliberately and openly send it as a
non-genuine item, possibly including a "Replica" sticker, it should not
be considered counterfeit in that context. The word "counterfeit"
requires some attempted fraud in the background and here is none.
Best regards, Piotr
Spehro Pefhany
Apr 27, 2021, 6:19:21 AM4/27/21
to
On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 18:42:46 -0700 (PDT), Phil Allison
<palli...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>I once bought 100 counterfeit MJ15003/4s from a local dealer.=20
>By then, I knew I was dealing with a crook so I made sure he could not sell=
> them on.=20
>By removing all the ink markings with acetone.=20
LOL, good one.
>Got a hot letter from his lawyer for doing that.=20
>Sent a even even hotter reply to said lawyer.=20
>
>Still got my refund cheque a few weeks later.....=20
--
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
<palli...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>I once bought 100 counterfeit MJ15003/4s from a local dealer.=20
>I was lied to about the source being a Motorola agent, it was not.
>He offered me a refund if I returned them.=20
>By then, I knew I was dealing with a crook so I made sure he could not sell=
> them on.=20
>By removing all the ink markings with acetone.=20
LOL, good one.
>Got a hot letter from his lawyer for doing that.=20
>Sent a even even hotter reply to said lawyer.=20
>
>Still got my refund cheque a few weeks later.....=20
--
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com
Apr 27, 2021, 10:27:50 AM4/27/21
to
On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 10:35:51 +0200, Piotr Wyderski
<pete...@neverland.mil> wrote:
>Rick C wrote:
>
>> Under US law mailing counterfeit goods is a crime in either direction, even as a return.
>
>So this law is stupid.
And impossible to enforce.
<pete...@neverland.mil> wrote:
>Rick C wrote:
>
>> Under US law mailing counterfeit goods is a crime in either direction, even as a return.
>
>So this law is stupid.
>
>> I don't know if other means of shipping is illegal or not. I haven't found any info on that.
>
>It should be discovered what a counterfeit good really is. If you know
>it is not genuine and you deliberately and openly send it as a
>non-genuine item, possibly including a "Replica" sticker, it should not
>be considered counterfeit in that context. The word "counterfeit"
>requires some attempted fraud in the background and here is none.
>
> Best regards, Piotr
Rick C
Apr 27, 2021, 11:00:07 AM4/27/21
to
coun·ter·feit
/ˈkoun(t)ərˌfit/
adjective: counterfeit
made in exact imitation of something valuable or important with the intention to deceive or defraud.
If you paint the Mona Lisa and sign your name it is not a counterfeit. If you sign Leonardo da Vinci's name, it is. The cited passages of the law require a likelihood "to cause confusion, to cause mistake, or to deceive".
https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?hl=false&edition=2017&req=granuleid%3AUSC-1999-title18-section2320&num=0
--
Rick C.
--- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Rick C
Apr 27, 2021, 11:04:23 AM4/27/21
to
On Tuesday, April 27, 2021 at 4:35:55 AM UTC-4, Piotr Wyderski wrote:
Even though I have no intend to defraud, the goods are made with the intent to defraud and so are counterfeit. The person I bought the goods from likely did not know they were counterfeit, that's why he wants them back, to return to his source and get his money back.
The point is once the goods are found to be counterfeit they should be destroyed, not returned so they can be sold as counterfeit again.
--
Rick C.
--+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
bitrex
Apr 27, 2021, 11:14:21 AM4/27/21
to
On 4/27/2021 10:27 AM, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 10:35:51 +0200, Piotr Wyderski
> <pete...@neverland.mil> wrote:
>
>> Rick C wrote:
>>
>>> Under US law mailing counterfeit goods is a crime in either direction, even as a return.
>>
>> So this law is stupid.
>
> And impossible to enforce.
>
And the OP didn't describe correctly what the law actually is in any
> On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 10:35:51 +0200, Piotr Wyderski
> <pete...@neverland.mil> wrote:
>
>> Rick C wrote:
>>
>>> Under US law mailing counterfeit goods is a crime in either direction, even as a return.
>>
>> So this law is stupid.
>
> And impossible to enforce.
>
case, mailing prohibited items isn't a crime intrinsically. There's a
list of prohibited items, they are prohibited in the way parking in a
handicapped spot without a placard is prohibited.
Whether what you did by trying to mail something on the list when the
rules say "don't do that" for that particular item to that particular
destination depends in large part on how much of that item you tried to
mail and/or what your intent was.
Nobody is coming to arrest you because you tried to mail one knock-off
Gucci bag to your girlfriend in Uzbekistan; in the unlikely event your
heinous activity is discovered at worst they will kick it back to you or
confiscate it, send you a letter that says "DONT DO THAT" and possibly
fine you.
At best your girlfriend in Uzbekistan will simply be disappointed in you.
bitrex
Apr 27, 2021, 11:15:09 AM4/27/21
to
On 4/27/2021 11:14 AM, bitrex wrote:
> On 4/27/2021 10:27 AM, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>> On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 10:35:51 +0200, Piotr Wyderski
>> <pete...@neverland.mil> wrote:
>>
>>> Rick C wrote:
>>>
>>>> Under US law mailing counterfeit goods is a crime in either
>>>> direction, even as a return.
>>>
>>> So this law is stupid.
>>
>> And impossible to enforce.
>>
>
> And the OP didn't describe correctly what the law actually is in any
> case, mailing prohibited items isn't a crime intrinsically. There's a
> list of prohibited items, they are prohibited in the way parking in a
> handicapped spot without a placard is prohibited.
>
> Whether what you did by trying
Whether what you did is a crime, rather
> On 4/27/2021 10:27 AM, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>> On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 10:35:51 +0200, Piotr Wyderski
>> <pete...@neverland.mil> wrote:
>>
>>> Rick C wrote:
>>>
>>>> Under US law mailing counterfeit goods is a crime in either
>>>> direction, even as a return.
>>>
>>> So this law is stupid.
>>
>> And impossible to enforce.
>>
>
> And the OP didn't describe correctly what the law actually is in any
> case, mailing prohibited items isn't a crime intrinsically. There's a
> list of prohibited items, they are prohibited in the way parking in a
> handicapped spot without a placard is prohibited.
>
> Whether what you did by trying
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com
Apr 27, 2021, 11:38:28 AM4/27/21
to
relationships where only the airlines came out ahead. Uzbekistan would
be worse. I eventually evolved the Twenty Mile Rule.
bitrex
Apr 27, 2021, 4:50:10 PM4/27/21
to
you're in a city of say a million people why you dating someone who
lives 50 or 100 miles away when by the statistics there's almost surely
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almost_surely>
someone within 25 miles who's smarter, more attractive, more single, and
likes you more, than the person at 50 or 100. It's only a problem of
discovery, not of availability.
Woman from Alaska dating a man from the CONUS sounds unusual but I hear
the expression women in Alaska have is "The odds are good, but the goods
are odd."
John Larkin
Apr 27, 2021, 4:59:50 PM4/27/21
to
Martin Brown
Apr 27, 2021, 5:08:48 PM4/27/21
to
On 27/04/2021 16:04, Rick C wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 27, 2021 at 4:35:55 AM UTC-4, Piotr Wyderski
> wrote:
>> Rick C wrote:
>>
>>> Under US law mailing counterfeit goods is a crime in either
>>> direction, even as a return.
>> So this law is stupid.
>>> I don't know if other means of shipping is illegal or not. I
>>> haven't found any info on that.
>> It should be discovered what a counterfeit good really is. If you
>> know it is not genuine and you deliberately and openly send it as
>> a non-genuine item, possibly including a "Replica" sticker, it
>> should not be considered counterfeit in that context. The word
>> "counterfeit" requires some attempted fraud in the background and
>> here is none.
>
> I would like you on my jury. ;)
>
> Even though I have no intend to defraud, the goods are made with the
> intent to defraud and so are counterfeit. The person I bought the
> goods from likely did not know they were counterfeit, that's why he
> wants them back, to return to his source and get his money back.
If you are sure they are fakes then mark them as such and return them
> On Tuesday, April 27, 2021 at 4:35:55 AM UTC-4, Piotr Wyderski
> wrote:
>> Rick C wrote:
>>
>>> Under US law mailing counterfeit goods is a crime in either
>>> direction, even as a return.
>> So this law is stupid.
>>> I don't know if other means of shipping is illegal or not. I
>>> haven't found any info on that.
>> It should be discovered what a counterfeit good really is. If you
>> know it is not genuine and you deliberately and openly send it as
>> a non-genuine item, possibly including a "Replica" sticker, it
>> should not be considered counterfeit in that context. The word
>> "counterfeit" requires some attempted fraud in the background and
>> here is none.
>
> I would like you on my jury. ;)
>
> Even though I have no intend to defraud, the goods are made with the
> intent to defraud and so are counterfeit. The person I bought the
> goods from likely did not know they were counterfeit, that's why he
> wants them back, to return to his source and get his money back.
with a note to that effect. You are rejecting defective product that an
unscrupulous supplier sent to you as genuine parts. There is no
intention to deceive here. Though US law may think otherwise.
> The point is once the goods are found to be counterfeit they should
> be destroyed, not returned so they can be sold as counterfeit again.
In the good old days when it was a British colony you could be forgiven
for thinking that the local greeting in Hong Kong was "Copy watch sir?".
Likewise for various other high value trademarked luxury goods.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
bitrex
Apr 27, 2021, 5:10:29 PM4/27/21
to
to either want to treat me like their boss or like a client depending;
don't really know what to make of a hardware designer who's
disinterested in either job.
John Larkin
Apr 27, 2021, 5:37:26 PM4/27/21
to
a battle where someone has to lose. Practicing law seems to make women
(and probably men) either aggressive or subdued, but in neither case
relaxed and trusting.
I'm 0 for 2 on lady lawyers, 0 for 1 on male friend lawyers.
Engineering is a better mindset. Tell the truth and make things that
work.
Some lawyer said that he loves to question engineers in court because
engineers don't know how to lie.
Phil Allison
Apr 27, 2021, 6:19:20 PM4/27/21
to
gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
=========================
1. An honest trader would not demand the counterfeits back - it is NOT the same as returning faulty items that need to be verified.
What he needs to do is supply genuine items instead, ASAP.
2. What dishonest traders do, however, is treat the situation as an "unhappy" customer returning goods for restocking - then issue them a refund.
3. Being in possession of counterfeit items is very similar to having received stolen goods - you cannot legally return them to the thief.
> The point is once the goods are found to be counterfeit they should be destroyed, not returned so they can be sold as counterfeit again.
** As with faulty items you can mark ( or deface ) them as such to prevent re-sale - either deliberate or accidental.
FYI: The case I described here (100 fake MJ15003/4s) had an interesting outcome.
I managed to get a leading electronics magazine ( Electronics Australia) to publish a warning about such fakes, including pics I took of the insides. I knew the editor ( Jim Rowe) and he was happy to do so.
Soon as the issue appeared, Jim got an abusive phone call from one of his biggest advertisers ( Jaycar).
Seems they had a also bought hundreds of the same fakes, but not from the same people I had.
Jim explained the evidence the devices *were* fake was overwhelming and the caller then went "very quiet".
So, I found out who the actual importer was, that he was aware he was selling counterfeits but elected to make no recalls.
..... Phil
=========================
>
> Even though I have no intend to defraud, the goods are made with the intent to defraud and so are counterfeit.
> The person I bought the goods from likely did not know they were counterfeit, that's why he wants them back,
> to return to his source and get his money back.
>
** Several things are wrong with that idea.
> Even though I have no intend to defraud, the goods are made with the intent to defraud and so are counterfeit.
> The person I bought the goods from likely did not know they were counterfeit, that's why he wants them back,
> to return to his source and get his money back.
>
1. An honest trader would not demand the counterfeits back - it is NOT the same as returning faulty items that need to be verified.
What he needs to do is supply genuine items instead, ASAP.
2. What dishonest traders do, however, is treat the situation as an "unhappy" customer returning goods for restocking - then issue them a refund.
3. Being in possession of counterfeit items is very similar to having received stolen goods - you cannot legally return them to the thief.
> The point is once the goods are found to be counterfeit they should be destroyed, not returned so they can be sold as counterfeit again.
FYI: The case I described here (100 fake MJ15003/4s) had an interesting outcome.
I managed to get a leading electronics magazine ( Electronics Australia) to publish a warning about such fakes, including pics I took of the insides. I knew the editor ( Jim Rowe) and he was happy to do so.
Soon as the issue appeared, Jim got an abusive phone call from one of his biggest advertisers ( Jaycar).
Seems they had a also bought hundreds of the same fakes, but not from the same people I had.
Jim explained the evidence the devices *were* fake was overwhelming and the caller then went "very quiet".
So, I found out who the actual importer was, that he was aware he was selling counterfeits but elected to make no recalls.
..... Phil
bitrex
Apr 27, 2021, 8:54:43 PM4/27/21
to
a man she never met before. Being able to have a good time with a
mostly-stranger and being trusting are a bit separate things, plenty of
women know how to do the former but still keep one eye open the whole
time regardless. "Trust, but verify" I think Reagan put it. Maybe Nancy
trust-but-verified him and that's where he learned that from.
> I'm 0 for 2 on lady lawyers, 0 for 1 on male friend lawyers.
>
> Engineering is a better mindset. Tell the truth and make things that
> work.
>
> Some lawyer said that he loves to question engineers in court because
> engineers don't know how to lie.
>
he believes to be true, at least....he'll tell everyone who'll listen in
fact how are you going to stop him is a question
Chris Jones
Apr 27, 2021, 9:16:24 PM4/27/21
to
On 28/04/2021 08:19, Phil Allison wrote:
> gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> =========================
>>
>> Even though I have no intend to defraud, the goods are made with the intent to defraud and so are counterfeit.
>> The person I bought the goods from likely did not know they were counterfeit, that's why he wants them back,
>> to return to his source and get his money back.
>>
>
> ** Several things are wrong with that idea.
>
> 1. An honest trader would not demand the counterfeits back
They might, if they were fooled by their wholesale supplier and wanted
> gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> =========================
>>
>> Even though I have no intend to defraud, the goods are made with the intent to defraud and so are counterfeit.
>> The person I bought the goods from likely did not know they were counterfeit, that's why he wants them back,
>> to return to his source and get his money back.
>>
>
> ** Several things are wrong with that idea.
>
> 1. An honest trader would not demand the counterfeits back
them as evidence to take action against their supplier. OTOH usually
they would have more stock that probably would also be fake, in which
case they might not need the parts returned, except perhaps to compare
with the rest of their stock.
Phil Allison
Apr 27, 2021, 9:30:08 PM4/27/21
to
Chris Jones wrote:
================
>>
> >> Even though I have no intend to defraud, the goods are made with the intent to defraud and so are counterfeit.
> >> The person I bought the goods from likely did not know they were counterfeit, that's why he wants them back,
> >> to return to his source and get his money back.
> >>
> >
> > ** Several things are wrong with that idea.
> >
> > 1. An honest trader would not demand the counterfeits back
>
> They might, if they were fooled by their wholesale supplier and wanted
> them as evidence to take action against their supplier. OTOH usually
> they would have more stock that probably would also be fake, in which
> case they might not need the parts returned,
>
** Correct.
================
>>
> >> Even though I have no intend to defraud, the goods are made with the intent to defraud and so are counterfeit.
> >> The person I bought the goods from likely did not know they were counterfeit, that's why he wants them back,
> >> to return to his source and get his money back.
> >>
> >
> > ** Several things are wrong with that idea.
> >
> > 1. An honest trader would not demand the counterfeits back
>
> They might, if they were fooled by their wholesale supplier and wanted
> them as evidence to take action against their supplier. OTOH usually
> they would have more stock that probably would also be fake, in which
> case they might not need the parts returned,
>
In the cases I know of, the Australian importers had no way of returning the fake stock to anyone.
One large company ( Dick Smith Electronics) said to me they would take their thousands of fake MJ15003/4s off store sale but maybe put them in kits or "bargain bags" instead.
Or any other clever way of passing them off that came to mind ....
..... Phil
Rick C
Apr 27, 2021, 10:32:34 PM4/27/21
to
Do they make sockets for TSSOP devices? I may need to test every reel I get and this is going to mess up a couple of boards at some point.
--
Rick C.
-+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Jasen Betts
Apr 28, 2021, 1:30:48 AM4/28/21
to
On 2021-04-28, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 27, 2021 at 9:16:24 PM UTC-4, Chris Jones wrote:
>> On 28/04/2021 08:19, Phil Allison wrote:
>> > gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > =========================
>> >>
>> >> Even though I have no intend to defraud, the goods are made with the intent to defraud and so are counterfeit.
>> >> The person I bought the goods from likely did not know they were counterfeit, that's why he wants them back,
>> >> to return to his source and get his money back.
>> >>
>> >
>> > ** Several things are wrong with that idea.
>> >
>> > 1. An honest trader would not demand the counterfeits back
>> They might, if they were fooled by their wholesale supplier and wanted
>> them as evidence to take action against their supplier. OTOH usually
>> they would have more stock that probably would also be fake, in which
>> case they might not need the parts returned, except perhaps to compare
>> with the rest of their stock.
>
> It's not so much a matter of the vendor wanting evidence. He wants
> to return the product to the guy he bought them from. I can't say if
> honesty has anything to do with it, most likely he was only a middle
> man and didn't have inventory.
He only needs to return them if he purchased them knowing they were
> On Tuesday, April 27, 2021 at 9:16:24 PM UTC-4, Chris Jones wrote:
>> On 28/04/2021 08:19, Phil Allison wrote:
>> > gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > =========================
>> >>
>> >> Even though I have no intend to defraud, the goods are made with the intent to defraud and so are counterfeit.
>> >> The person I bought the goods from likely did not know they were counterfeit, that's why he wants them back,
>> >> to return to his source and get his money back.
>> >>
>> >
>> > ** Several things are wrong with that idea.
>> >
>> > 1. An honest trader would not demand the counterfeits back
>> They might, if they were fooled by their wholesale supplier and wanted
>> them as evidence to take action against their supplier. OTOH usually
>> they would have more stock that probably would also be fake, in which
>> case they might not need the parts returned, except perhaps to compare
>> with the rest of their stock.
>
> It's not so much a matter of the vendor wanting evidence. He wants
> to return the product to the guy he bought them from. I can't say if
> honesty has anything to do with it, most likely he was only a middle
> man and didn't have inventory.
fakes.
> His supplier will likely just make them available to someone else.
counterfeiters. perhaps returning a sample so that your vender can
verify them is justified.
> Also, I'm wondering what he will hit
> me up for as I tested two chips. They aren't in the tape anymore, so
> might have to be re-refurbished.
service that it friendly to counterfeiters.
> Do they make sockets for TSSOP devices? I may need to test every
>reel I get and this is going to mess up a couple of boards at some
>point.
--
Jasen.
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