MOT hacking

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Rich Grise

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Jun 6, 2006, 4:21:47 PM6/6/06
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[crossposted
alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.basics
please manage followups intelligently, thanks.]

There have been threads about hacking Microwave Oven Transformers, and
there are a lot of websites, and I'm sure you've all seen my MOT:
http://www.abiengr.com/~sysop/images/MOT-primary2.jpg (the penny was just
to see if there were any eddy current effects. None was perceptible. :-) )
So, today, I scrounged a hank of #18 magnet wire, from some guy back in
the shop at http://www.eurtonelectric.com/ . All I did was do a google
search on "transformer rewinding whittier ca" and this outfit came up.
Well, it's just down the street, and it's a pretty respectaby-sized shop,
in a nice part of town, and I called them on the phone. "Well, I'm looking
for about 25 feet of #18." So, just on my good looks, this guy hands me a
remnant (about 2/3 of one layer, on a spool about 4" diameter and about 5"
long) of wire, and it's on the house! I asked, "Do you want me to mention
you in my blog?" (figuring that "blog" would be easier for a motor
rewinder guy to grasp than "USENET group") and he said, "Sure!"

So, I'm going to wind a 15-turn pie on my MOT right up close and personal
to the existing primary, but first I have to get those pesky magnetic
shunts out of the way.

I'm thinking prop the tranny up on a couple of 1-2-3 blocks on the steel
welding bench, and just whack them out. How do you guys get your magnetic
shunts out of your MOTs?

Thanks,
Rich

James Thompson

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Jun 6, 2006, 4:39:36 PM6/6/06
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"Rich Grise" <rich...@example.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2006.06.07....@example.net...
I just tapped them out with a flat tip screw driver away from the primary
winding.
Comes out easy.
Do keep us posted on your progress, my eye's are perked up!


Tim Williams

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Jun 6, 2006, 5:44:43 PM6/6/06
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"Rich Grise" <rich...@example.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2006.06.07....@example.net...
> I'm thinking prop the tranny up on a couple of 1-2-3 blocks on the steel
> welding bench, and just whack them out. How do you guys get your magnetic
> shunts out of your MOTs?

Whaddya think yo better than me?

I use wood and a chisel or screwdriver and hammer... :-)

If you want to get the windings off I recommend (I probably did already)
hacksawing or grinding the weld off the "I" section, then lightly bashing
(can I use those two words together?) the primary off. Then you can glue up
a bobbin from cardboard and slip your secondary on much easier. A clamp
from the shop keeps the I firmly on the E until you feel like welding it
back on or whatever.

Tim

--
Deep Fryer: a very philosophical monk.
Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms


Rich Grise

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Jun 6, 2006, 9:49:39 PM6/6/06
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On Tue, 06 Jun 2006 16:44:43 -0500, Tim Williams wrote:

> "Rich Grise" <rich...@example.net> wrote in message
> news:pan.2006.06.07....@example.net...
>> I'm thinking prop the tranny up on a couple of 1-2-3 blocks on the steel
>> welding bench, and just whack them out. How do you guys get your magnetic
>> shunts out of your MOTs?
>
> Whaddya think yo better than me?
>
> I use wood and a chisel or screwdriver and hammer... :-)
>
> If you want to get the windings off I recommend (I probably did already)
> hacksawing or grinding the weld off the "I" section, then lightly bashing
> (can I use those two words together?) the primary off. Then you can glue up
> a bobbin from cardboard and slip your secondary on much easier. A clamp
> from the shop keeps the I firmly on the E until you feel like welding it
> back on or whatever.
>

Eek! I'm nowhere near that point yet. It seems that the wire I scrounged
is somehow stiffer than I remember #18 hookup wire, but it's motor wire
after all. The insulation has the look and feel of "Heavy Formvar" or
"Polythermaleze" or something. I've threaded a few turns by just threading
the wire through the winding window, and it looks like crap - that is,
what I've got for a "winding" is kinda tangle-wound, but it turns out that
because of the stiffness of the wire, and the toughness of the
insulation, it's not all that bad threading it through the eyes, albeit
time-consuming. The tangle-winding I have there now I'm sure would work
electrically, but it looks like crap, and would probably buzz. So, I
dedided, since I intend to show it off, it should look neat, so I've
decided to 5-minute epoxy each winding into place as I go along; this
should only take 2.5 hours to do 15 turns. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich

Oh, and of course, don't forget the boredom medicine of your choice, ;-)

C!
R


Chuck Harris

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Jun 6, 2006, 10:29:07 PM6/6/06
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Rich Grise wrote:

>
> Eek! I'm nowhere near that point yet. It seems that the wire I scrounged
> is somehow stiffer than I remember #18 hookup wire, but it's motor wire
> after all. The insulation has the look and feel of "Heavy Formvar" or
> "Polythermaleze" or something. I've threaded a few turns by just threading
> the wire through the winding window, and it looks like crap - that is,
> what I've got for a "winding" is kinda tangle-wound, but it turns out that
> because of the stiffness of the wire, and the toughness of the
> insulation, it's not all that bad threading it through the eyes, albeit
> time-consuming. The tangle-winding I have there now I'm sure would work
> electrically, but it looks like crap, and would probably buzz. So, I
> dedided, since I intend to show it off, it should look neat, so I've
> decided to 5-minute epoxy each winding into place as I go along; this
> should only take 2.5 hours to do 15 turns. ;-)

Golly, Rich, make your life easy, and grind the welds away, and take the
center out of your tranny. Then you can wind the windings very neatly.
You don't have to weld the center back, you can toss some of your 5 minute
epoxy at it, and all will be well.

-Chuck

Clifford Heath

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Jun 6, 2006, 11:56:03 PM6/6/06
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Chuck Harris wrote:
> You don't have to weld the center back, you can toss some of your 5 minute
> epoxy at it, and all will be well.

Doesn't the extra air gap cause problems?

Tim Williams

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Jun 7, 2006, 12:10:07 AM6/7/06
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"Clifford Heath" <no....@please.net> wrote in message
news:44864e53$0$26385$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...

I doubt it, those things saturate on the peaks anyway. L will be lower but
Imax will be higher.

Chuck Harris

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Jun 7, 2006, 8:29:53 AM6/7/06
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No, because you are only removing a small percentage
of the lamination iron. If you are truly concerned,
you can weld it back up.

-Chuck

Clifford Heath

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Jun 7, 2006, 9:11:34 AM6/7/06
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Chuck Harris wrote:
>> Doesn't the extra air gap cause problems?
> No, because you are only removing a small percentage
> of the lamination iron. If you are truly concerned,
> you can weld it back up.

Ok. I'd still avoid epoxy because it falls apart with
heat. A resorcinol or urea glue would resist that.

default

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Jun 7, 2006, 4:46:14 PM6/7/06
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Uh . . . the air gap is part of the way the/a magnetic shunt works -
as the secondary draws more current than you want, the magnetic field
is diverted into the shunt (bypasses the rest of the core and
secondary). Bigger gap sets the current limit higher. Skewed gap
gives a sloppy "knee" in the current limit.

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Chuck Harris

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Jun 7, 2006, 9:00:34 PM6/7/06
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default wrote:
> On Wed, 07 Jun 2006 08:29:53 -0400, Chuck Harris
> <cf-NO-SP...@erols.com> wrote:
>
>> Clifford Heath wrote:
>>> Chuck Harris wrote:
>>>> You don't have to weld the center back, you can toss some of your 5
>>>> minute
>>>> epoxy at it, and all will be well.
>>> Doesn't the extra air gap cause problems?
>> No, because you are only removing a small percentage
>> of the lamination iron. If you are truly concerned,
>> you can weld it back up.
>>
>> -Chuck
>
> Uh . . . the air gap is part of the way the/a magnetic shunt works -
> as the secondary draws more current than you want, the magnetic field
> is diverted into the shunt (bypasses the rest of the core and
> secondary). Bigger gap sets the current limit higher. Skewed gap
> gives a sloppy "knee" in the current limit.

We weren't talking about the shunts. They are popped out. We
were talking about opening the core so you can remove the bobbin
and wind it easily.

-Chuck

default

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Jun 8, 2006, 12:00:35 PM6/8/06
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Oh. MOT I'm using only had a weld on the shunt.

Rich Grise

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Jun 8, 2006, 2:26:37 PM6/8/06
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On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 12:00:35 -0400, default wrote:

> On Wed, 07 Jun 2006 21:00:34 -0400, Chuck Harris
> <cf-NO-SP...@erols.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>We weren't talking about the shunts. They are popped out. We
>>were talking about opening the core so you can remove the bobbin
>>and wind it easily.
>>
>>-Chuck
>
> Oh. MOT I'm using only had a weld on the shunt.

This one, the shunts just popped out - tap, tap, tap, toink! But,
since I'm having so much fun threading this wire through the EI eyes,
epoxying each turn into place, I really don't feel like cutting up
the core. I can see where it's welded, and I have access to all manner
of grinders and a chop saw, and my office opens onto a weld shop, so
it's theoretically doable, but I can thread wire sitting down. ;-)
Plus, I don't want to introduce any new gaps - I'd rather change as
little as possible per experiment. :-)

Thanks!
Rich

default

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Jun 8, 2006, 2:51:49 PM6/8/06
to
On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 18:26:37 GMT, Rich Grise <rich...@example.net>
wrote:

>
>This one, the shunts just popped out - tap, tap, tap, toink! But,
>since I'm having so much fun threading this wire through the EI eyes,
>epoxying each turn into place, I really don't feel like cutting up
>the core. I can see where it's welded, and I have access to all manner
>of grinders and a chop saw, and my office opens onto a weld shop, so
>it's theoretically doable, but I can thread wire sitting down. ;-)
>Plus, I don't want to introduce any new gaps - I'd rather change as
>little as possible per experiment. :-)
>
>Thanks!
>Rich

I know you're having fun. What is the volts per turn? or turns per
volt.

American Science and Surplus had some very inexpensive 1 KVA toroid
isolation transformers awhile back They are 0.84 volts per turn -
Brand new for ~$12 with flat rate shipping. But you can't beat MOT's
for cost effective.

Rich Grise

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Jun 9, 2006, 11:48:27 AM6/9/06
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On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 14:51:49 -0400, default wrote:
> On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 18:26:37 GMT, Rich Grise <rich...@example.net>
> wrote:
>
>>This one, the shunts just popped out - tap, tap, tap, toink! But,
>>since I'm having so much fun threading this wire through the EI eyes,
>>epoxying each turn into place, I really don't feel like cutting up
>>the core. I can see where it's welded, and I have access to all manner
>>of grinders and a chop saw, and my office opens onto a weld shop, so
>>it's theoretically doable, but I can thread wire sitting down. ;-)
>>Plus, I don't want to introduce any new gaps - I'd rather change as
>>little as possible per experiment. :-)
>
> I know you're having fun. What is the volts per turn? or turns per
> volt.
>
> American Science and Surplus had some very inexpensive 1 KVA toroid
> isolation transformers awhile back They are 0.84 volts per turn -
> Brand new for ~$12 with flat rate shipping. But you can't beat MOT's
> for cost effective.
>

Yup. Can't get much cheaper than free! ;-)

Cheers!
Rich

ian field

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Jun 9, 2006, 3:22:22 PM6/9/06
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"Rich Grise" <rich...@example.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2006.06.09....@example.net...

Its a bit late for the u-wave oven you got the transformer from, but a handy
tip for curing the problem of the lights keep blowing when people are a bit
heavy handed shutting the door - watch out for CFLs with slim bodies and
check if they fit the space available before hunting everywhere for the
proper bulbs - CFLs seem to be a little more robust in this application!


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