OT: Human-caused warming likely led to recent streak of record-breaking temperatures: study

[hon...@yahoo.com]

https://phys.org/news/2017-08-human-caused-streak-record-breaking-temperatures.html


What I'd really like to know is this: how can all these studies be based off flawed data? What is happening to our scientific and research institutions!!!

[John Doe]

Seems the Internet has become a political soapbox for Third
Worlders promoting their failed ideals.

There might be general agreement on climate change, but
climate has changed throughout Earth's history for various
reasons. Apparently there is no consensus on the reason why
climate is changing this time. Nobody knows how much and for
how long, either.

--
hondgm yahoo.com wrote:

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[hon...@yahoo.com]

On Thursday, August 10, 2017 at 12:52:05 PM UTC-5, John Doe wrote:
> Seems the Internet has become a political soapbox for Third
> Worlders promoting their failed ideals.
>
> There might be general agreement on climate change, but
> climate has changed throughout Earth's history for various
> reasons. Apparently there is no consensus on the reason why
> climate is changing this time. Nobody knows how much and for
> how long, either.
>

<Church Lady bit start>

Hmmmm, what could it be. Oh what in the world could it be. Could it be......CARBON EMISSIONS??

<Church Lady bit end>

[Jim Thompson]

On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 17:47:46 -0000 (UTC), John Doe
<alway...@message.header> wrote:

>Seems the Internet has become a political soapbox for Third
>Worlders promoting their failed ideals.
>
>There might be general agreement on climate change, but
>climate has changed throughout Earth's history for various
>reasons. Apparently there is no consensus on the reason why
>climate is changing this time. Nobody knows how much and for
>how long, either.

Indeed!

As a _very_old_fart_ (3/4 Century+), virtually all of my adult life in
one general area of Arizona, I note the following:

(1) It was _very_slightly_ hotter (peaks) in 1962 than now... maybe
1°F

(2) What's interesting, but pleasant, is that, while peak summer
temperatures haven't changed, the DURATION of very hot has DECLINED...

Intense heat now drops off at the beginning of August... used to be it
lasted until almost the end of August.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I'm looking for work... see my website.

Thinking outside the box...producing elegant & economic solutions.

[hon...@yahoo.com]

I know you just can't comprehend how this could be happening despite your tiny corner of the world not appearing to be affected. It's called sample size.

[Martin Riddle]

On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 12:43:43 -0700, Jim Thompson
<To-Email-Use-Th...@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 17:47:46 -0000 (UTC), John Doe
><alway...@message.header> wrote:
>
>>Seems the Internet has become a political soapbox for Third
>>Worlders promoting their failed ideals.
>>
>>There might be general agreement on climate change, but
>>climate has changed throughout Earth's history for various
>>reasons. Apparently there is no consensus on the reason why
>>climate is changing this time. Nobody knows how much and for
>>how long, either.
>
>Indeed!
>
>As a _very_old_fart_ (3/4 Century+), virtually all of my adult life in
>one general area of Arizona, I note the following:
>
>(1) It was _very_slightly_ hotter (peaks) in 1962 than now... maybe
>1°F
>
>(2) What's interesting, but pleasant, is that, while peak summer
>temperatures haven't changed, the DURATION of very hot has DECLINED...
>
>Intense heat now drops off at the beginning of August... used to be it
>lasted until almost the end of August.
>
> ...Jim Thompson

We've been getting into the low 60's at night here. It's usually in
the 70's.

And we haven't had more than a day or 2 of 90+ degree weather.
It's been mild just like last year, and the year before that, And....



Cheers

[Jim Thompson]

Must be all those melting glaciers >:-}

Or is it Al Gore _sucking_ all the power ?:-)

[hon...@yahoo.com]

On Thursday, August 10, 2017 at 3:50:21 PM UTC-5, Jim Thompson wrote:
> >
> >And we haven't had more than a day or 2 of 90+ degree weather.
> >It's been mild just like last year, and the year before that, And....
> >
> >
> >
> >Cheers
>
> Must be all those melting glaciers >:-}
>
> Or is it Al Gore _sucking_ all the power ?:-)
>
> ...Jim Thompson
> --

Or all your hot air.

[John Larkin]

On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 12:43:43 -0700, Jim Thompson
<To-Email-Use-Th...@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 17:47:46 -0000 (UTC), John Doe
><alway...@message.header> wrote:
>
>>Seems the Internet has become a political soapbox for Third
>>Worlders promoting their failed ideals.
>>
>>There might be general agreement on climate change, but
>>climate has changed throughout Earth's history for various
>>reasons. Apparently there is no consensus on the reason why
>>climate is changing this time. Nobody knows how much and for
>>how long, either.
>
>Indeed!
>
>As a _very_old_fart_ (3/4 Century+), virtually all of my adult life in
>one general area of Arizona, I note the following:
>
>(1) It was _very_slightly_ hotter (peaks) in 1962 than now... maybe
>1°F
>
>(2) What's interesting, but pleasant, is that, while peak summer
>temperatures haven't changed, the DURATION of very hot has DECLINED...
>
>Intense heat now drops off at the beginning of August... used to be it
>lasted until almost the end of August.
>
> ...Jim Thompson

But when it's cool, that's just weather. When it's hot, *that's*
climate.

It was really hot in the late 1930's. You missed that.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

[John Larkin]

On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 13:50:07 -0700, Jim Thompson

Could it be that we how have hundreds, likely thousands, of times as
many 24/7 weather stations as we had occasionally-read ones 100 years
ago?

About all you can trust is satellite measurements. Funny, satellite
data => hiatus.

[John Doe]

Jim Thompson wrote:

> Martin Riddle wrote:
>> Jim Thompson wrote:

>>> John Doe wrote:
>>>
>>>>Seems the Internet has become a political soapbox for
>>>>Third Worlders promoting their failed ideals.
>>>>
>>>>There might be general agreement on climate change, but
>>>>climate has changed throughout Earth's history for
>>>>various reasons. Apparently there is no consensus on the
>>>>reason why climate is changing this time. Nobody knows
>>>>how much and for how long, either.
>>>
>>>Indeed!
>>>
>>>As a _very_old_fart_ (3/4 Century+), virtually all of my
>>>adult life in one general area of Arizona, I note the
>>>following:
>>>
>>>(1) It was _very_slightly_ hotter (peaks) in 1962 than
>>>now... maybe 1°F
>>>
>>>(2) What's interesting, but pleasant, is that, while peak
>>>summer temperatures haven't changed, the DURATION of very
>>>hot has DECLINED...
>>>
>>>Intense heat now drops off at the beginning of August...
>>>used to be it lasted until almost the end of August.
>>

>>We've been getting into the low 60's at night here. It's
>>usually in the 70's.
>>
>>And we haven't had more than a day or 2 of 90+ degree
>>weather. It's been mild just like last year, and the year
>>before that, And....

> Must be all those melting glaciers >:-}
>
> Or is it Al Gore _sucking_ all the power ?:-)

He invented the Internet, maybe he can start climate change.

If you want the years data, find your city's climate graph.
Here are examples of some great weather information...

http://www.weather.gov/riw/cliplot

http://w2.weather.gov/fgf/climategraphs <--- (most might look
like that)

https://www.weather.gov/bgm/climateMain <--- (but they are
inconsistent)

Appears to be no easy way to find them. Definitely worth
bookmarking if you find yours.

Look at the year's daily temperatures graph towards the
bottom of those pages. You can see whether the year is hotter
or cooler than the norm. Plus they include rainfall data.

Availability of those graphs appears to be inconsistent
depending on the state and city you live in. But most United
States cities should have one. Being only one year, it is a
tiny sample, but it is easy to read.

[John Doe]

> http://www.weather.gov/riw/cliplot

You have to click on "Yearly Climate Data" for that one.

[Jim Thompson]

All they had back then for air-conditioning was wet blankets...
literally ;-)

There are still existent some old Navajo structures that used an
inverse chimney effect to cool their hogans.

Back when I first came to Arizona you could freely wander thru most of
those ruins... amazing how well it worked.

Now they're pretty much closed to the public :-(

[bill....@ieee.org]

On Friday, August 11, 2017 at 5:43:57 AM UTC+10, Jim Thompson wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 17:47:46 -0000 (UTC), John Doe
> <alway...@message.header> wrote:
>
> >Seems the Internet has become a political soapbox for Third
> >Worlders promoting their failed ideals.
> >
> >There might be general agreement on climate change, but
> >climate has changed throughout Earth's history for various
> >reasons. Apparently there is no consensus on the reason why
> >climate is changing this time. Nobody knows how much and for
> >how long, either.
>
> Indeed!
>
> As a _very_old_fart_ (3/4 Century+), virtually all of my adult life in
> one general area of Arizona, I note the following:
>
> (1) It was _very_slightly_ hotter (peaks) in 1962 than now... maybe
> 1°F
>
> (2) What's interesting, but pleasant, is that, while peak summer
> temperatures haven't changed, the DURATION of very hot has DECLINED...
>
> Intense heat now drops off at the beginning of August... used to be it
> lasted until almost the end of August.

Jim is not only old, but also remarkably ignorant.

Anthropogenic global warming is the progressive rise of the average surface temperature of the whole planet. Arizona represents a rather small fraction of the planetary surface, so what happens there is of strictly local interest.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

[bill....@ieee.org]

> Could it be that we how have hundreds, likely thousands, of times as
> many 24/7 weather stations as we had occasionally-read ones 100 years
> ago?

Athony Watts doesn't seem to realise that there are ways of measuring temperature than don't involve Stevenson boxes. Neither does John Larkin.

> About all you can trust is satellite measurements. Funny, satellite
> data => hiatus.

They might have done, for a while, until the rest of the field got together and persuade Spencer and Christy to properly correct their satellite data for orbital decay.

This update doesn't seem to have made it onto the denialist web-sites from which John Larkin gets all his climate change information.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

[hon...@yahoo.com]

On Thursday, August 10, 2017 at 4:57:16 PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
> >
> >Intense heat now drops off at the beginning of August... used to be it
> >lasted until almost the end of August.
> >
> > ...Jim Thompson
>
> But when it's cool, that's just weather. When it's hot, *that's*
> climate.

This is climate for the dolts that haven't learned yet:

"Climate in a narrow sense is usually defined as the "average weather," or more rigorously, as the statistical description in terms of the mean and variability of relevant quantities over a period ranging from months to thousands or millions of years. The classical period is 30 years, as defined by the World Meteorological Organization (WMO)."

>
> It was really hot in the late 1930's. You missed that.
>

So a few years. Sounds like weather to me.

[bill....@ieee.org]

Karl Rove (or somebody very like him) managed misrepresent him as saying that.
What Gore did was to introduce the Supercomputer Network Study Act of 1986, which did help to get the internet going.

> If you want the years data, find your city's climate graph.
> Here are examples of some great weather information...

John Doe doesn't seem to have grasped the significance of word "global" in the phrase anthropogenic global warming.

<snipped irrelevant links, and equally irrelevant twaddle>

> Being only one year, it is a tiny sample, but it is easy to read.

And totally meaningless. Anthropogenic global warming is happening uncomfortably fast, but short term fluctuations make it difficult to see over periods shorter than a few decades.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

[bill....@ieee.org]

On Friday, August 11, 2017 at 7:57:16 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 12:43:43 -0700, Jim Thompson
> <To-Email-Use-Th...@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:
>
> >On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 17:47:46 -0000 (UTC), John Doe
> ><alway...@message.header> wrote:
> >
> >>Seems the Internet has become a political soapbox for Third
> >>Worlders promoting their failed ideals.
> >>
> >>There might be general agreement on climate change, but
> >>climate has changed throughout Earth's history for various
> >>reasons. Apparently there is no consensus on the reason why
> >>climate is changing this time. Nobody knows how much and for
> >>how long, either.
> >
> >Indeed!
> >
> >As a _very_old_fart_ (3/4 Century+), virtually all of my adult life in
> >one general area of Arizona, I note the following:
> >
> >(1) It was _very_slightly_ hotter (peaks) in 1962 than now... maybe
> >1°F
> >
> >(2) What's interesting, but pleasant, is that, while peak summer
> >temperatures haven't changed, the DURATION of very hot has DECLINED...
> >
> >Intense heat now drops off at the beginning of August... used to be it
> >lasted until almost the end of August.
>

> But when it's cool, that's just weather. When it's hot, *that's*
> climate.
>
> It was really hot in the late 1930's. You missed that.

The pig ignorant admonishing the pig ignorant.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

[bill....@ieee.org]

On Friday, August 11, 2017 at 3:52:05 AM UTC+10, John Doe wrote:
> hondgm yahoo.com wrote:
> > X-Received: by 10.31.168.14 with SMTP id r14mr7191901vke.21.1502384992323; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 10:09:52 -0700 (PDT)
> > X-Received: by 10.31.157.209 with SMTP id g200mr66614vke.9.1502384992199; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 10:09:52 -0700 (PDT)
> > Path: eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!feeder.eternal-september.org!border1.nntp.ams1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!peer03.ams1!peer.ams1.xlned.com!news.xlned.com!peer02.am4!peer.am4.highwinds-media.com!peer02.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!s6no2185727qtc.1!news-out.google.com!n39ni822qtf.1!nntp.google.com!w51no2186356qtc.0!postnews.google.com!glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
> > Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
> > Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 10:09:52 -0700 (PDT)
> > Complaints-To: groups-abuse google.com
> > Injection-Info: glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com; posting-host=66.41.96.84; posting-account=KHupWgoAAAAnDt1vCXRM0ZFC2MOTk5Iy
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> > MIME-Version: 1.0
> > Message-ID: <9e3b4def-d4aa-4e7f-bfe2-8b50c9175159 googlegroups.com>
> > Subject: OT: Human-caused warming likely led to recent streak of record-breaking temperatures: study
> > From: hondgm yahoo.com
> > Injection-Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 17:09:52 +0000
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
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> > Xref: news.eternal-september.org sci.electronics.design:478787
> >
> > https://phys.org/news/2017-08-human-caused-streak-record-breaking-temperatures.html
> >
> > What I'd really like to know is this: how can all these studies be based off flawed data? What is happening to our scientific and research institutions!!!
>

> Seems the Internet has become a political soapbox for Third
> Worlders promoting their failed ideals.

I wasn't aware that John Doe was posting from the Third World - it's probably deceptive self-promotion on his part, since internal evidence suggest that his world is much further back than third.

> There might be general agreement on climate change, but
> climate has changed throughout Earth's history for various
> reasons.

Sure. And the change over the last century is dominated by our habit of digging up fossil carbon, burning it for fuel and dumping the CO2 generated straight into the atmosphere.

> Apparently there is no consensus on the reason why
> climate is changing this time.

None that John Doe knows about. Better informed observers are less ignorant.

> Nobody knows how much and for how long, either.

We do know how much the average surface temperature of the planet has warmed up over the past century - it's about 1.1C.

https://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus/

The half life of CO2 in the atmosphere is about 800 years, so that if we stopped burning fossil carbon for fuel tomorrow, the temperature increase would take that long to go away.

What happens if we don't stop burning fossil carbon for fuel at our current - progressively increasing - rate is also clear enough. We'll see more warming. Precisely how much is difficult to predict with any precision, but the estimates we can make suggest that it would be a good idea to stop, or a least slow down, our burning of fossil carbon for fuel.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

[hon...@yahoo.com]

You see, the issue some have is since the exact results cannot be predicted, nothing should be done. It's narrow-minded thinking.

[whit3rd]

On Thursday, August 10, 2017 at 4:06:51 PM UTC-7, John Doe wrote:

> > Or is it Al Gore _sucking_ all the power ?:-)
>
> He invented the Internet, maybe he can start climate change.

Not invented, created.

<https://www.npl.washington.edu/av/altvw166.html>

[John Doe]

Arguing with this chronic liar is pointless. When you debunk
its lies, it comes up with more lies to cover its prior lies.
The choice is whether to fill the Internet with its lies, or
to avoid arguing with it.

--
bill.sloman ieee.org wrote:

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> Subject: Re: OT: Human-caused warming likely led to recent streak of record-breaking temperatures: study
> From: bill.sloman ieee.org
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>
> On Friday, August 11, 2017 at 9:06:51 AM UTC+10, John Doe wrote:
>> Jim Thompson wrote:
>>
>> > Martin Riddle wrote:
>> >> Jim Thompson wrote:
>> >>> John Doe wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>>Seems the Internet has become a political soapbox for
>> >>>>Third Worlders promoting their failed ideals.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>There might be general agreement on climate change, but
>> >>>>climate has changed throughout Earth's history for
>> >>>>various reasons. Apparently there is no consensus on the
>> >>>>reason why climate is changing this time. Nobody knows
>> >>>>how much and for how long, either.
>> >>>
>> >>>Indeed!
>> >>>
>> >>>As a _very_old_fart_ (3/4 Century+), virtually all of my
>> >>>adult life in one general area of Arizona, I note the
>> >>>following:
>> >>>
>> >>>(1) It was _very_slightly_ hotter (peaks) in 1962 than

>> >>>now... maybe 1而F

[John Doe]

You might notice this chronic liar and the original poster
promote the same argument. And they both post from Google
Groups and have not figured out how to wrap their lines...

--
bill.sloman ieee.org wrote:

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> Subject: Re: OT: Human-caused warming likely led to recent streak of record-breaking temperatures: study
> From: bill.sloman ieee.org

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[Jim Thompson]

On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 03:16:49 -0000 (UTC), John Doe
<alway...@message.header> wrote:

>You might notice this chronic liar and the original poster
>promote the same argument. And they both post from Google
>Groups and have not figured out how to wrap their lines...

You could stop feeding the troll. Killfile slowman and enjoy the
silence.

[kevin93]

On Thursday, August 10, 2017 at 12:43:57 PM UTC-7, Jim Thompson wrote:
..

>
> As a _very_old_fart_ (3/4 Century+), virtually all of my adult life in
> one general area of Arizona, I note the following:
>
> (1) It was _very_slightly_ hotter (peaks) in 1962 than now... maybe
> 1°F
>
> (2) What's interesting, but pleasant, is that, while peak summer
> temperatures haven't changed, the DURATION of very hot has DECLINED...
>
> Intense heat now drops off at the beginning of August... used to be it
> lasted until almost the end of August.
>

Maybe, but NOAA reckons the average temperatures have increased a bit in Arizona:

https://i.imgur.com/DbbMaMP.png

https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/temp-and-precip/state-temps/

kevin

[Jim Thompson]

Not due to any summer peaks, but due to winter not being as cold.

Coldest we experienced last winter was ~29°F... in the past we'd hit
20°F pretty regularly.

[John Doe]

I do not feed trolls.

A one-way kill file is counterproductive, like putting your
hands over your eyes. And if you kill file someone without
knowing how to ignore the poisoned thread branch, you end up
stumbling over replies to their posts. Even ignoring the thread
branch, they still get to talk behind your back without you
getting a chance to take shots at them.

I eagerly take advantage of mutual blocking on any forum that
allows it (there are extremely few). Mutual blocking means
trolls can be prevented from participating, because they do not
see your posts, either. That way, being able to exclude a troll
from conversations does wonders for their attitude. They might
be able to guess what you are saying, but they are dependent on
others. Too bad USENET will never implement mutual blocking. I
would LOVE to see most Internet discussion forums implementing
it. Maybe someday. It would reduce moderator work, allow users
to determine who they associate with, and it would promote more
intelligent discussion.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 12:43:43 -0700, Jim Thompson
<To-Email-Use-Th...@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

>As a _very_old_fart_ (3/4 Century+), virtually all of my adult life in
>one general area of Arizona, I note the following:
>
>(1) It was _very_slightly_ hotter (peaks) in 1962 than now... maybe
>1°F
>
>(2) What's interesting, but pleasant, is that, while peak summer
>temperatures haven't changed, the DURATION of very hot has DECLINED...
>
>Intense heat now drops off at the beginning of August... used to be it
>lasted until almost the end of August.
>
> ...Jim Thompson

Ummm.... NOAA has the temperatures in Phoenix AZ from Jan 1 to July
31, 2017 as the 5th highest since 1934:
<https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/monitoring-content/sotc/national/2017/jul/haywood/Jan-Jul.tavg.Phoenix.png>
<https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/national/2017/07/supplemental/page-1>
It was normal from Jan 1 to about Mar 5, but went up quite a bit after
that. 2014 and 2015 were also record high years.

Looks like the data for Phoenix comes from the airport (USW00023183):
<https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/cdo-web/datasets/NORMAL_ANN/stations/GHCND:USW00023183/detail>
I've sometimes wondered about the wisdom of putting a weather station
in the middle of an airport, which is potentially a major heat source.
It's next to runway 25L, but at least it's not on top of a building as
it was prior to 1948:
<https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4277962,-112.0037192,63m/data=!3m1!1e3>
The station moved in 2000-12-01 so I would be careful about using data
that overlaps that date.

Hmmm... looks like the ASOS Hygro/thermometer was replaced on
2017-04-10, which might produce a slight jog in the readings. However,
I don't see anything on the graph, so I guess it's ok.

<https://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/01/10/inside-the-asos-ho83-tempdewpoint-sensor/>
"The most famous problem occurred in Tucson, AZ in the mid
1980’s where a malfunctioning HO83 unit created dozens of
new high temperature records for the city, even though
surrounding areas had no such measured extremes. Unfortunately
those new high temperature records including the all time
high of 117 degrees F, became part of the official climate
record and still stand today."
The above is from 2008. It hit 117F again in 1990, which suggests
that nobody bothered to fix the instrument or the data:
<http://www.wrh.noaa.gov/twc/climate/all-time.php>

Garbage in, climate out.

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Joe Chisolm]

On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 21:41:32 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

> On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 21:11:32 -0700 (PDT), kevin93
> <ke...@whitedigs.com> wrote:
>
>>On Thursday, August 10, 2017 at 12:43:57 PM UTC-7, Jim Thompson wrote:
>>..
>>>
>>> As a _very_old_fart_ (3/4 Century+), virtually all of my adult life in
>>> one general area of Arizona, I note the following:
>>>
>>> (1) It was _very_slightly_ hotter (peaks) in 1962 than now... maybe
>>> 1°F
>>>
>>> (2) What's interesting, but pleasant, is that, while peak summer
>>> temperatures haven't changed, the DURATION of very hot has DECLINED...
>>>
>>> Intense heat now drops off at the beginning of August... used to be it
>>> lasted until almost the end of August.
>>>
>>
>>Maybe, but NOAA reckons the average temperatures have increased a bit in Arizona:
>>
>>https://i.imgur.com/DbbMaMP.png
>>
>>https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/temp-and-precip/state-temps/
>>
>>kevin
>>
>
> Not due to any summer peaks, but due to winter not being as cold.
>
> Coldest we experienced last winter was ~29°F... in the past we'd hit
> 20°F pretty regularly.
>
> ...Jim Thompson

Of course they dont factor in the bazillion sqft of concrete, asphalt, and roof tiles
that now occupy what was once desert. Back when I bought my house up on Beardsley
road (now 101) there was nothing out there. Bell road was way out of town and very
little on Union Hills. Arrow Head Ranch was citrius groves. The old Glendale
airport was a 2400ft strip right on Grand Ave and Dunlap. When I was working
for Honeywell on T-bird road we used to drive out of town to Deer Valley Airport
to eat at the Satisified Frog (or what ever that place was called, it's long since
moved). All those houses and shopping centers north of Deer Valley airport did not
exist - it was nothing but desert ground that gave up the heat at night.

--
Chisolm
Republic of Texas

[Reinhardt Behm]

So are looking for some means to stabilize and close your filter bubble.

--
Reinhardt

[bill....@ieee.org]

Arguing with this chronic liar is pointless. When you debunk
its lies, it comes up with more lies to cover its prior lies.
The choice is whether to fill the Internet with its lies, or
to avoid arguing with it.

John Doe illustrates the point perfectly. He is implicitly claiming that he is arguing, but he is in fact just posting a blankets statement that has nothing to do with anything that has been posted before, and he implies that whatever it is he thinks he is responding to is some kind of lie.

Since he doesn't bother to identify whatever it is he imagines to be misleading, this is - of itself - a misleading prevarication, or - to be more explicit - a lie.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

[bill....@ieee.org]

> You might notice this chronic liar and the original poster
> promote the same argument.

That what happens when you are propagating correct data. John Doe is too dim to recognise that it is correct, and - since he fancies a different explanation, which he can't be bothered to indentify - has decided to ignore it as lie. Krw has the same habit.

> And they both post from Google Groups and have not figured out how to wrap their lines...

Google Groups does it for you. More antiquated ways of accessing the data stick you with fixed line lengths that have to be sorted out whenever you post a follow-up. I've cleaned up a couple in this post.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

[bill....@ieee.org]

Of course any moderator worth having would exclude John Doe. He never advances an argument having any substance.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

[Artemus]

"kevin93" <ke...@whitedigs.com> wrote in message
news:965b341a-624d-448b...@googlegroups.com...

I always thought average temperatures to be an absolutely useless
calculation in regard to evaluating different climates
The average of 140° and 12° is 76° and
the average of 80° and 72° is the same.
Which would you prefer to live in?

Another factor is the media reported 1970's clash between phx and tuc over summertime temps and how
it effected where the tourists went.
The summertime high temps were reported to be 3 to 5 degrees cooler in Tuc. So phx had the weather
station at sky harbor move its thermometer to a slightly cooler location. And the local politicians
congratulated themselves on a major accomplishment.
So be careful of any changes over time in the measurement system used.

Art (another old fart who lived in phx and tuc for 60 years)

[hon...@yahoo.com]

On Thursday, August 10, 2017 at 10:14:58 PM UTC-5, John Doe wrote:
> Arguing with this chronic liar is pointless. When you debunk
> its lies, it comes up with more lies to cover its prior lies.

If posting statements with credible references are lies, then what are you promoting?? Unless you consider NOAA, NASA, and the report just released from 13 federal agencies promotes lies....which you probably do since that's the new alt-right fad: ALL unwelcome news is FAKE NEWS.

> The choice is whether to fill the Internet with its lies, or
> to avoid arguing with it.

I think you made a little mistake, you should have used "my" instead of "its" above.

[Jim Thompson]

Indeed! I can remember an enormous amount of snow on (what was then)
a meadow at 7th St and Northern.

I contracted at Sperry/Honeywell, Deer Valley, and at the Space (?)
Division (Union Hills ?), late '80's, early '90's.

[Jim Thompson]

On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 22:45:32 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 12:43:43 -0700, Jim Thompson
><To-Email-Use-Th...@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:
>
>>As a _very_old_fart_ (3/4 Century+), virtually all of my adult life in
>>one general area of Arizona, I note the following:
>>
>>(1) It was _very_slightly_ hotter (peaks) in 1962 than now... maybe
>>1°F
>>
>>(2) What's interesting, but pleasant, is that, while peak summer
>>temperatures haven't changed, the DURATION of very hot has DECLINED...
>>
>>Intense heat now drops off at the beginning of August... used to be it
>>lasted until almost the end of August.
>>
>> ...Jim Thompson
>
>Ummm.... NOAA has the temperatures in Phoenix AZ from Jan 1 to July
>31, 2017 as the 5th highest since 1934:
><https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/monitoring-content/sotc/national/2017/jul/haywood/Jan-Jul.tavg.Phoenix.png>
><https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/national/2017/07/supplemental/page-1>

BS. They're taking their readings over that concrete mass/mess called
Sky Harbor.

[Jim Thompson]

On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 07:14:31 -0700, Jim Thompson
<To-Email-Use-Th...@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 22:45:32 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>wrote:
>

[snip]

>>
>>Ummm.... NOAA has the temperatures in Phoenix AZ from Jan 1 to July
>>31, 2017 as the 5th highest since 1934:
>><https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/monitoring-content/sotc/national/2017/jul/haywood/Jan-Jul.tavg.Phoenix.png>
>><https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/national/2017/07/supplemental/page-1>
>
>BS. They're taking their readings over that concrete mass/mess called
>Sky Harbor.
>

[snip]

Maybe that's a good thing... the "heat islands" provide the chimney
effect needed to cool us off out in the hinterlands ;-)

[John Larkin]

On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 22:45:32 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

It's silly to think that 50 or 100 year old air temperature
measurements can be compared to modern ones with degree-C accuracy.
The old ones are usually "corrected" anyhow.

The satellite data is better, but we don't yet have enough data to
separate out the low-frequency noise.

>
>Hmmm... looks like the ASOS Hygro/thermometer was replaced on
>2017-04-10, which might produce a slight jog in the readings. However,
>I don't see anything on the graph, so I guess it's ok.
>
><https://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/01/10/inside-the-asos-ho83-tempdewpoint-sensor/>
> "The most famous problem occurred in Tucson, AZ in the mid
> 1980’s where a malfunctioning HO83 unit created dozens of
> new high temperature records for the city, even though
> surrounding areas had no such measured extremes. Unfortunately
> those new high temperature records including the all time
> high of 117 degrees F, became part of the official climate
> record and still stand today."
>The above is from 2008. It hit 117F again in 1990, which suggests
>that nobody bothered to fix the instrument or the data:
><http://www.wrh.noaa.gov/twc/climate/all-time.php>
>
>Garbage in, climate out.

Yes. People used to read mercury thermometers with their eyeballs,
once or twice a day, with unknown diligence.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

[Joe Chisolm]

I think it is just south of the Deer Valley airport - 19th ave or maybe 7th ave and
probably Rose Garden. Rose Garden was the street north of my house. I think
they built some parts of the space shuttle there.

Back in the day the DVT airport had a nice little cafe/bar with covered outside
seating. Great place to have a beer and watch a moosoon thunderstorm.
There was nothing between the airport and carefree hiway but open desert.

[Jim Thompson]

On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 11:21:41 -0500, Joe Chisolm

I remember it well... used to grab lunch there occasionally.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 07:14:31 -0700, Jim Thompson
<To-Email-Use-Th...@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 22:45:32 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>wrote:

>>Ummm.... NOAA has the temperatures in Phoenix AZ from Jan 1 to July
>>31, 2017 as the 5th highest since 1934:
>><https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/monitoring-content/sotc/national/2017/jul/haywood/Jan-Jul.tavg.Phoenix.png>
>><https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/national/2017/07/supplemental/page-1>

>BS. They're taking their readings over that concrete mass/mess called
>Sky Harbor.

Yep, it's in a lousy location. Also, plenty of potential of getting
high temperature readings from jet exhaust if the wind is blowing in
the right direction. Still, it's better than an airport rooftop,
where it can measure the HVAC equipment output. The very high record
temperatures might be due to jet exhaust, sensor error, or bad siting.
Dunno.

Weather station siting is a PITA in urban areas. The basic problem is
a tradeoff between minimizing outside influences and maintaining
security. Putting the main weather station in the middle of an empty
field is great for accuracy, but not so great if someone can just
drive up and haul off the entire weather station. Finding a suitable
and secure location in the middle of a huge heat island (Phoenix AZ)
is difficult.

Agricultural weather networks are far better at siting their sensors,
usually in flat open fields. For example, the California CIMIS
network:
<http://fruitsandnuts.ucdavis.edu/Weather_Services/about_CIMIS_stations/>
Arizona may have something similar. Digging... This one should be
nearby:
<http://cals-mac.arizona.edu/weather-station>
<https://cals.arizona.edu/azmet/>
The anemometer isn't high enough (should be about 10 meters high) but
everything else looks acceptable.

NWS Proper Siting (which includes ASOS):
<http://www.nws.noaa.gov/os/coop/standard.htm>
"The sensor should be at least 100 feet from any paved or
concrete surface".
Right...

The other part of the puzzle is that these stations were never
designed to have their data used for climate research, where accuracy
and consistency are paramount. They're designed to give airport
managers and pilots a good idea of the local conditions for
determining takeoff speed and maybe provide some numbers for the local
weather guessers. For these, a few degrees one way or other is good
enough. When climate research became fashionable about 20 year ago,
the airport ASOS system was drafted into service and the data crammed
into various climate models. When the models became muddles, the data
from all these inaccurate weather stations was averaged together on
the assumption that the errors were random and would cancel each
other. That's not the case as thermal heat islands always have a
positive temperature bias. See the reader comments on the situation
(2008):
<https://climateaudit.org/2008/01/10/inside-the-ho83-hygrothermometer/>

The subject line is correct. Your record temperatures were caused by
humans. In this case, by jet exhaust, bad siting, and sensor errors.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 09:11:20 -0700, John Larkin
<jjla...@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

>It's silly to think that 50 or 100 year old air temperature
>measurements can be compared to modern ones with degree-C accuracy.
>The old ones are usually "corrected" anyhow.

Actually, the current data is equally often tweaked to align with the
old data. Ideally, what is measured is the temperature of the air.
More commonly, it's the temperature of nearby IR reflectors or
sources. It's amazingly difficult to obtain 1 degree air temperature
accuracy. I thought I had it right, only to find that the heat from
the small fan I was using to move the air was good for about +1C
error. Of the naturally asperated radiation shields available, I
don't trust any of them. This is from 1999, but still applicable:
"Comparison of Five Radiation Shields"
<http://www.davisnet.com/product_documents/weather/app_notes/AN_24-temp-radiation-shield-comparison.pdf>

>The satellite data is better, but we don't yet have enough data to
>separate out the low-frequency noise.

>Yes. People used to read mercury thermometers with their eyeballs,
>once or twice a day, with unknown diligence.

They still do and manual weather stations are still produced:
<http://www.wagtechprojects.com/product/manual-weather-station/>
The logic is to maintain the consistence of the data by using exactly
the same methods that were used in the last 100-200 years. Some
agencies have a few such manual stations. The manual data is compared
with the automated stations and used as a sanity check. Locally, the
only accurate rainfall numbers I can find come from such a manual
station.

[k...@notreal.com]

On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 09:11:20 -0700, John Larkin

More importantly, it's giving the wrong answers.

[bill....@ieee.org]

As if krw would know what the "right" answers might be. The Koch brothers will tell him what the far-right answers ought to be, but the motivation there is to let the Koch brothers keep in making money out of the oil business.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

[John Doe]

Coincidentally, this improperly labeled off-topic troll and
the chronic liar both post from Google Groups and do not know

how to wrap their lines...

--
hondgm yahoo.com wrote:

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> Subject: Re: OT: Human-caused warming likely led to recent streak of record-breaking temperatures: study

> From: hondgm yahoo.com
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[bill....@ieee.org]

> Coincidentally, this improperly labeled off-topic troll and
> the chronic liar both post from Google Groups and do not know
> how to wrap their lines...

John Doe seems to think that using antiquated software is some kind of virtue, and hasn't realised that he shouldn't top-post.

His habit of complaining that other people lie, without identifying which parts of their posts are lies, or why he thinks that what has been posted is false, is decidedly troll-like. It's probably unkind to blame on malice what is more likely to reflect stupidity, but John Doe does look very like a troll.

Where he gets "improperly labelled" from escapes me, and he certainly isn't going to bother explaining, not that an explanation would make his observation any less worthless.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

[John Doe]

Both (this chronic liar and the improperly labeled off-topic
original poster) promote the same argument, post from Google
Groups, and do not know how to wrap their lines...

--
bill.sloman ieee.org wrote:

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> Subject: Re: OT: Human-caused warming likely led to recent streak of record-breaking temperatures: study

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[bill....@ieee.org]

John Doe seems to think that mindless repetition is worth the effort.
It does further establish his character as a totally mindless troll, but we didn't need to have that point even further reinforced.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney