HELP needed with relay bounce

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chris.knight

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Jul 11, 2005, 8:31:38 PM7/11/05
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Hi All


I've been trying to construct a pressure regulating device, using a 12v

latching solenoid and conventional valve, to protect a filter in a home

irrigation system. I am using a pressure switch which goes contacts
open at high pressure/contacts close at falling pressure. These two
states in turn trigger 555 timers which in turn drive small 12v SPDT
relays.


The relays are configured so that in the relaxed state the circuit
connects to the 0v line and when exited by the pulse from the 555,
switches to supply 12v for each relay in turn. The purpose of this
switching configuration is so that the 12v latching solenoid, which
operates the valve, can be switched to close the valve when pressure
reaches a high threshold, but then by reversing the supply voltage, is
switched to open the valve at a low threshold.


This all works perfectly - until the latching solenoid is connected,
whereupon the action of the solenoid causes the relays to bounce
erratically.


I have tried various combinations of (non polarised) capacitors and R/C

combinations across the terminals of the solenoid, and/or across the
relay. I have also tried using seperate 12v power supplies to power
the two sides of the device (timing - relay activation side and power
supply for solenoid side)but the action of the solenoid still causes
the relays to bounce erretically.


I feel I am running out of options to solve this dilema, but am now
considering the use of switching transistors or solid state relays.
Only I'm not sure how to switch such devices on and off to give the
necessary pulse to switch the solenoid on then off etc.


Any help would be greatly appreciated

mrob...@worldnet.att.net

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Jul 11, 2005, 9:01:24 PM7/11/05
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chris.knight <chris....@dipnr.nsw.gov.au> wrote:
>I have also tried using seperate 12v power supplies to power the two
>sides of the device (timing - relay activation side and power supply
>for solenoid side)but the action of the solenoid still causes the
>relays to bounce erretically.

The above test may mean this won't work, but: I have seen a 555 circuit
that behaved badly when switching a large relay. It was supposed to
turn on the relay for about 2 seconds when power was first applied, then
turn off the relay. When tested, it just sat there and cycled endlessly.
The problem was simply that the current initially drawn by the solenoid
was dragging down the supply enough to reset the 555; a big electrolytic
capacitor across the power supply leads near the 555 fixed it.

Were the two supplies totally separate... no common ground or anything?
If you're not sure, you might use a 12 V battery for one supply or the
other to make _sure_ the supplies are isolated.

Random thought: is the problem possibly with the _relay_ coils, instead
of the solenoid? Have you tried installing diodes "backwards" across
the relay coils? In other words, orient the diode so that it's not
conducting when the relay coil is powered. Something like a 1N4007 is
usually good. You can get quite impressive spikes from a relay coil;
I have seen spikes to over 100 V from the coil of a 12 V automotive
relay. If this is the problem, I can't quite explain why the relays
would behave with no load on the contacts and act up with a load, but
it's something simple to try.

Matt Roberds

jme...@nowhere.net

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Jul 11, 2005, 9:13:25 PM7/11/05
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On 11 Jul 2005 17:31:38 -0700, "chris.knight" <chris....@dipnr.nsw.gov.au>
wroth:


>
>This all works perfectly - until the latching solenoid is connected,
>whereupon the action of the solenoid causes the relays to bounce
>erratically.
>

The problem has nothing to do with relay bounce. It's due to pressure
fluctuations in the system because the solenoid abruptly shuts off the flow and
the pressure changes rapidly. Of course the pressure sensing relay sees this
fluxuation and appears to chatter.

The usual fix for problems like this is a pressure "accumulator". A "T"
fitting is placed in the system between the solenoid and the sensing relay. At
the open leg of the T a short connection is made to a bottle of some sort. The
bottle is the accumulator. The bottle is placed with the connection to the T at
its lowest point. The bottle is half filled with water with air over that. The
water pressure compresses the air and a little more water enters the bottle.
When the pressure in the system tries to change rapidly, a little of the water
flows into and out od the bottle thus not allowing the pressure to change as
rapidly as it would without the accumulator. This smooths out the pressure
changes without affecting the overall pressure.

Jim


jme...@nowhere.net

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Jul 11, 2005, 9:16:34 PM7/11/05
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On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 01:13:25 GMT, jme...@nowhere.net wroth:

Substitute "pressure switch" everywhere except the first time I wrote
"relay".

Jim

Dan Hollands

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Jul 12, 2005, 10:27:23 AM7/12/05
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If the problem is electrical rather than a pressure surge as described in
another post, the problem is almost certainly the inductive voltage kick
from the solenoid when voltage is removed. In the old days a snubber (R&C)
inseries was used but finding the correct values was always a problem.
Nowadays a device call a bidirectional transient voltage suppressor or
bidirectional Tranzorb does a much better job - see
http://www.vishay.com/docs/88378/sa.pdf for an example.

These devices are widely used to protect electronic wiring from high voltage
noise spikes

Dan

--

Dan Hollands
1120 S Creek Dr
Webster NY 14580
585-872-2606
Quick...@USSailing.net
www.QuickScoreRace.com


"chris.knight" <chris....@dipnr.nsw.gov.au> wrote in message
news:1121128298.1...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

JeffM

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Jul 12, 2005, 6:49:00 PM7/12/05
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>>the action of the solenoid causes the relays to bounce erratically.
>> chris.knight @ dipnr.nsw.gov.au
>
>It's due to pressure fluctuations in the system...

>The usual fix for problems like this is a pressure "accumulator".
>...The bottle is half filled with water with air over that.
> Jim (jmeyer @ nowhere.net)

Sounds probable. More here:
http://www.google.com/search?q=intitle:plumbing+Water-Hammer+air-filled+noise+OR+noises

chris.knight

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Jul 12, 2005, 10:39:59 PM7/12/05
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Dan Hollands wrote:
> If the problem is electrical rather than a pressure surge as described in
> another post, the problem is almost certainly the inductive voltage kick
> from the solenoid when voltage is removed. In the old days a snubber (R&C)
> inseries was used but finding the correct values was always a problem.
> Nowadays a device call a bidirectional transient voltage suppressor or
> bidirectional Tranzorb does a much better job - see
> http://www.vishay.com/docs/88378/sa.pdf for an example.
>
> These devices are widely used to protect electronic wiring from high voltage
> noise spikes
>
> Dan
>
> --
>
> Dan Hollands
> 1120 S Creek Dr
> Webster NY 14580
> 585-872-2606
> Quick...@USSailing.net
> www.QuickScoreRace.com
>

> Thanks everyone for your replies
Firstly, I used two batteries to give totally seperate voltage
supplies. The diode concept is probably worth exploring a bit further,
particularly the Tranzorb device. I'll try and locate some
Secondly, the problem is electrical, not due to pressure fluctuations,
as at this stage I am yet to fit the valve in the irrigation line. The
comments about pressure fluctuations are well received though. I'll
watch out for problems along those lines when I finally (optimisticaly)
get it sorted

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