They sounded alarms about a coming Colorado River crisis. But warnings went unheeded

[Fred Bloggs]

This is what happens when government and important function within government become totally politicized.

All the corrupt old farts who're responsible for this mess are dead and gone.

Use the whole link:
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-07-15/scientists-have-long-warned-of-a-colorado-river-crisis?emci=717875c0-c80e-ed11-b47a-281878b83d8a&emdi=d21d7691-ca0e-ed11-b47a-281878b83d8a&ceid=509869

[Don Y]

"Scientists" aren't typically concerned with economics.

Water drives economic development in the West. If you don't have adequate
water supplies, you can't build houses. If you can't build houses, you
can't support businesses.

Cities, here, need to ensure a 100yr water supply for bonding. Would
you lend money to a municipality that is going to "dry up and blow
away" in 50 years? 30? (who's going to take out a 30yr mortgage on
a property that has no municipal supports available 50 years hence??)

Water rights are... weird. It's like saying you have the right to
use electricity -- but never having to meter your usage! What keeps
you honest?

[I used to watch my FinL twiddle the gates in the irrigation canal adjoining
his property to divert water across his fields. "How do you know when you've
got enough?" "When the far end gets wet!" "Who keeps track of how much
water you've used?" (puzzled look)]

We "bank" some of our CAP allotment in the aquifer. What's to stop folks
with wells from tapping into that? What's to stop folks from drilling (deeper)
wells?

Also, there are laws that effectively prevent you from using water access
to drive policy. If the golf course wants to use municipal water to
irrigate their greens, then why shouldn't they be able to? My *neighbor*
can use it to keep his GRASS LAWN nice and green... why is he any different
than the golf course owner?

This leads to some really stupid behaviors -- like growing cotton in the
desert! Or, pecan orchards.

But, Heaven forbid we curtail *development* to conserve water! Easier to
convince residents to drink treated effluent than to risk shutting down
that economic engine! <rolls eyes>

Sadly, the rest of the country (and world, for that matter) isn't far
behind. Water (like many natural resources) has been over-spent for
too long for there not to be consequences!

[a a]

no crisis at all
life is for real
forget your delusional day dreaming

[Fred Bloggs]

It's the mentality that believes nature is inexhaustible, and they refuse to consider any evidence to the contrary until they have a catastrophe on their hands. The same bunch aren't worried about over population either.

[Fred Bloggs]

China can't even feed its own people. Crop failures due to extreme weather and other effects directly related to global warming are forcing them to import more and more essential foods. Xi Jinping is trying very hard to turn it around, but it's not working out very well.

[Don Y]

I think it is more fundamental/selfish than that -- folks don't want to
hear "no". If I use X CCF in a given period of time, telling me I can
*only* use X CCF in that time period feels like I'm being cheated!

Tell the municipalities that they should cut down on residential/commercial
development and they cringe wondering how they will make up for that lack
of increase in tax base and monies spent on those "purchases".

Do they still place a glass of ice water in front of you as you sit down to
a restaurant meal? How often do you NOT drink it? (remember, it also has to
be washed once served!)

Do you use a garden hose as a BROOM (to clean your driveway or sidewalk)?
Do you leave a hose running as you wash our car? Brush your teeth? Shave?
Do you take multiple showers during the humid months to "feel clean"?

It's amusing to see how folks deal with water in MX where water is *delivered*
to each home by The Water Truck. Suddenly, you discover you can get by with
a sponge bath instead of a lengthy shower!

A *close* look at the "bathtub ring" surrounding Lake Mead is really alarming
(that's not "a few feet"!). Consider the Lake empties faster as the water
level decreases (due to the V-shaped nature of the walls)

Hint: water that isn't flowing into Lake Mead isn't flowing elsewhere, either!

[Don Y]

On 7/31/2022 7:33 AM, Don Y wrote:
> Do you leave a hose running as you wash our car?

I've put these on my garden hoses:

<https://lonn.net/product/heavy-duty-replacement-hose-ends/?v=7516fd43adaa>

Yeah, you can get similar "control" with other nozzles/valves...
but, with these, it's intuitive and automatic: *drop* the hose
and the nozzle closes off the water supply... no need to discipline
yourself to manually shut it down.

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <tc643r$cjjg$1...@dont-email.me>, blocked...@foo.invalid
says...

>
> I've put these on my garden hoses:
>
> <https://lonn.net/product/heavy-duty-replacement-hose-ends/?v=7516fd43adaa>
>
> Yeah, you can get similar "control" with other nozzles/valves...
> but, with these, it's intuitive and automatic: *drop* the hose
> and the nozzle closes off the water supply... no need to discipline
> yourself to manually shut it down.
>
>
>

I use the nozzle that looks similr to a hand gun or gas pump nozzle. If
you do not hold it the water stops flowing.

[Don Y]

*Many* nozzles will *want* to shut off unless "held open".

The one you referenced, IIRC, has a small, triangular loop of metal that
can be flipped down to hold the nozzle open.

It can also squirt (momentarily) open if it lands on the handle when
dropped.

The Lonn water savers can't open unless subjected to a good deal of
deformation; you are keenly aware of how long you have held it open
while using it! (if you WANT to keep water flowing, they are
contraindicated!)

[jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com]

Alarms again. Fear. You need to be afraid.

You're afraid to even post your real name. Afraid someone will attack
you or something.

Wnat a way to live.

[rbowman]

On 07/31/2022 04:50 AM, Don Y wrote:
> This leads to some really stupid behaviors -- like growing cotton in the
> desert! Or, pecan orchards.

https://gilaherald.com/truck-runs-off-highway-into-cotton-field/

You don't like them old cotton fields back home in Pima?

https://www.macrotrends.net/2533/cotton-prices-historical-chart-data

Break even for cotton is around 75 cents per pound. It's up to 1.03 now
but that might not last. Historically there were a lot of years where it
was hardly worth hauling to Long Beach to ship to China.

Farmers in Mississippi and other cotton growing areas thought they had
the solution; flood the fields and raise catfish. That was fun while it
lasted. Swai and other sort-of-catfish species from Vietnam put paid to
that despite trying to restrict the word 'catfish' to Ictaluridae.
People aren't doing DNA analysis on that plate of Cajun blackened
catfish. I don't know if they drained the fields and went back to row
crops. I haven't been in that part of the world in decades.

[rbowman]

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Yardsmith-1-Pattern-Nozzle/50328313

I get by with one of those for $6.50. It *usually* closes off the water
supply when I drop the hose. I have managed to drop it one the handle
and hose myself off. It's supposed to hit 102 today so that isn't
necessarily a bad thing.

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

much better in plastic, metal gets freaking cold

[Don Y]

On 7/31/2022 12:23 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On 07/31/2022 08:37 AM, Don Y wrote:
>> On 7/31/2022 7:33 AM, Don Y wrote:
>>> Do you leave a hose running as you wash our car?
>>
>> I've put these on my garden hoses:
>>
>> <https://lonn.net/product/heavy-duty-replacement-hose-ends/?v=7516fd43adaa>
>>
>> Yeah, you can get similar "control" with other nozzles/valves...
>> but, with these, it's intuitive and automatic: *drop* the hose
>> and the nozzle closes off the water supply... no need to discipline
>> yourself to manually shut it down.
>>
>
> https://www.lowes.com/pd/Yardsmith-1-Pattern-Nozzle/50328313

Yes, but, as I mentioned to Ralph, it can be "locked on". If you'll
NEVER need that ability, then why not remove the little metal ring
that enables it? :>

IIRC, there was also an adjustment screw to determine how "hard"
the spray is emitted.

[There are all sorts of similar other "pistol-like" nozzles
but all have the same characteristics, just different selections
of spray patterns]

The Lonn devices are almost tedious to "turn on". So, you are
very conscious of how long you've been deforming the nozzle to
allow water to pass; turning the water OFF comes as a relief!

> I get by with one of those for $6.50. It *usually* closes off the water supply
> when I drop the hose. I have managed to drop it one the handle and hose myself
> off. It's supposed to hit 102 today so that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

We used the above when we were kids, washing cars. Someone ALWAYS ended
up getting "squirted", accidentally, when it was dropped. And, you can't
predict *who* will be victimized!

A blast of cold water when you are expecting it isn't all that bad.
But, when you AREN'T expecting it, it takes your breath away!

[Of course, here, we don't have cold water in the summer/monsoon months...]

[Don Y]

On 7/31/2022 12:15 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On 07/31/2022 04:50 AM, Don Y wrote:
>> This leads to some really stupid behaviors -- like growing cotton in the
>> desert! Or, pecan orchards.
>
> https://gilaherald.com/truck-runs-off-highway-into-cotton-field/
>
> You don't like them old cotton fields back home in Pima?

(sigh) The "double standard" gets annoying.

I can be fined for "water running across my sidewalk". Or, a broken
irrigation emitter "squirting" water.

I'm expected to wash out my recyclable containers -- when the city could
perform that task and *reuse* the rinse water!

I'm NOT expected to wash my car -- cuz the commercial car wash WILL
reuse the rinse water.

I should xeriscape and switch to drip irrigation -- though the city uses
"long throw" emitters to water the ball fields AND DOES SO DURING DAYLIGHT
HOURS (losing 40% to evaporation).

If you want me to be water conscious, then YOU should be as well!

> https://www.macrotrends.net/2533/cotton-prices-historical-chart-data
>
> Break even for cotton is around 75 cents per pound. It's up to 1.03 now but
> that might not last. Historically there were a lot of years where it was hardly
> worth hauling to Long Beach to ship to China.

But a pound of cotton is a fair amount.

OTOH, aren't there better places to grow it?

Idea: Let's start a *citrus* farm outside of Nashua!

> Farmers in Mississippi and other cotton growing areas thought they had the
> solution; flood the fields and raise catfish. That was fun while it lasted.
> Swai and other sort-of-catfish species from Vietnam put paid to that despite
> trying to restrict the word 'catfish' to Ictaluridae. People aren't doing DNA
> analysis on that plate of Cajun blackened catfish. I don't know if they
> drained the fields and went back to row crops. I haven't been in that part of
> the world in decades.

Can't blame folks for wanting to make money/eek out a living.
But, shouldn't they AT LEAST take actions to maximize their
chances of succeeding?

I have the same sort of feelings towards folks who REPEATEDLY
have lost homes/businesses to tornadoes, floods, hurricanes, etc.

"Are you dense? What's it going to take to convince you that this
isn't the right place to live??"

[DecadentLinux...@decadence.org]

jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
news:f08dehh8d7602fgar...@4ax.com:

snip

> Alarms again. Fear. You need to be afraid.
>
> You're afraid to even post your real name. Afraid someone will
> attack you or something.
>
> Wnat a way to live.

You are such a fucking modern day dopey dipshit.

[jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com]

You're afraid too. Most people are.

[rbowman]

I have a plastic one around someplace that never worked well. I should
get a new one since the pot metal one is getting a bit leaky.

[rbowman]

On 07/31/2022 01:45 PM, Don Y wrote:
> On 7/31/2022 12:23 PM, rbowman wrote:
>> On 07/31/2022 08:37 AM, Don Y wrote:

>
> Yes, but, as I mentioned to Ralph, it can be "locked on". If you'll
> NEVER need that ability, then why not remove the little metal ring
> that enables it? :>

I checked and both of mine have them but I don't recall ever using them.
I also was mistaken; one has a blue finish and I remembered it as being
plastic.

> IIRC, there was also an adjustment screw to determine how "hard"
> the spray is emitted.

It limits the metering rod travel. The blue one's rod still moves but
not freely. We have water that's hard enough to walk on. In fact I'm
dealing with a new pebble finish on the car, either from lawn sprinklers
or residue from the fire up on the ridge last week. The suggestions
range from dilute vinegar to 'wheel acid' which apparently is
hydrofluoric. Think I'll start with vinegar.

[corvid]

I'm afraid of Yellowjackets. Not Rattlesnakes, though.

[rbowman]

On 07/31/2022 02:02 PM, Don Y wrote:
>
> Idea: Let's start a *citrus* farm outside of Nashua!

Nashua as in the place where they should set up a checkpoint for illegal
migrants from Massachusetts?

[rbowman]

On 07/31/2022 01:45 PM, Don Y wrote:

> The Lonn devices are almost tedious to "turn on". So, you are
> very conscious of how long you've been deforming the nozzle to
> allow water to pass; turning the water OFF comes as a relief!

I've used those someplace, probably a filling station. It's nothing I
would inflict on myself. Besides I check on the river about 250 yards
from my backdoor. Unlike sections of the Rio Grande, it's still flowing.

[whit3rd]

On Sunday, July 31, 2022 at 8:32:29 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Jul 2022 17:48:57 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >All the corrupt old farts who're responsible for this mess are dead and gone.
> >
> >Use the whole link:
> >https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-07-15/scientists-have-long-warned-of-a-colorado-river-crisis?

> Alarms again. Fear. You need to be afraid.

Not paying attention to alarms, was a MAJOR violation of proper behavior during school
fire drills. Even as an adult, if you are one, it's an impropriety.

It's not about fear, but about apprehension; if you expect to drink water, you
want to live near a source, hopefully a reliable one. Bad things happen
if we don't plan ahead.

Larkin Syndrome: perceiving fear, hysteria, panic in every situation

[Don Y]

No, from the secret soviet base in Hollis!

[whit3rd]

On Sunday, July 31, 2022 at 3:51:01 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> On 7/28/2022 5:48 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:

> > https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-07-15/scientists-have-long-warned-of-a-colorado-river-crisis?emci=717875c0-c80e-ed11-b47a-281878b83d8a&emdi=d21d7691-ca0e-ed11-b47a-281878b83d8a&ceid=509869

> "Scientists" aren't typically concerned with economics.
>
> Water drives economic development in the West. If you don't have adequate
> water supplies, you can't build houses. If you can't build houses, you
> can't support businesses.
>
> Cities, here, need to ensure a 100yr water supply for bonding.

Yeah, planning ahead is kinda essential when you require and support housing
that has to last 30 years 'til the mortgage is paid off.

A trailer park, absent a supply of water, isn't a good place to put down roots, but
it's easy to leave.

[Don Y]

I fell in love with them after watching a "facilities worker" using them
at a client's shop. The fact that he could just DROP it on the concrete
slab without worrying about breaking it or "getting squirted" was a huge
selling point.

[I also bought a pair of hot water hoses.]

When washing the cars, one needs to have water continuously available
as the cars *dry* so quickly (ultralow humidity). And, if they are
left to dry, they *spot*.

So, you want to be able to pick up hose and quickly re-wet the entire
vehicle every few minutes. Use a large bath towel to do the bulk drying
and a chamois for the fine detail.

But, you *really* have to work quick cuz the spots are almost impossible
to be rid of!

["Invisible Glass" is a good product for manually cleaning window glass]

[Don Y]

Imagine the municipality's "investments". They want to issue bonds to
fund roads and other infrastructure. What if all that is for nought
given the prospects for continued habitation?

We've already made plumbing changes in anticipation of having to add
"local" treatment capabilities for hte inevitable switch to "treated
effluent". (Yeah, like I'm gonna trust you guys to get THAT right...)

[jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com]

Many people are afraid of spiders. Maybe it's genetic.

[jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com]

On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 18:36:45 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Read the thread title. I didn't make that up.

[corvid]

Hey, if you haven't yet, I think you should stuff an empty CO2 cartridge
with match heads and light the fuse. Every other kid has done that. I did.

[rbowman]

Pima County found that out when they tried to put a .50/day tax on RVs
to fund their baseball stadium. When your potential tax base is on
wheels they tend to furl the awning and head for some other county.

[rbowman]

Never did that. The drugstores used to sell cans of saltpeter and
flowers of sulfur. Sugar is an easier source of carbon than charcoal.
Fill an old steel drygas can that sort of had a nozzle and you could
make a satisfying firework.

One of the neighborhood kids did the match head thing and it didn't end
well.

[whit3rd]

Huh? 'Alarm', as in snooze alarm or fire alarm, or smoke alarm, just means a
mechanism of warning. It doesn't require an emotional response of fear.
Time to implement stage 2 of your morning's plan, or plan B
of water supply for a state. Or, change a battery. Whatever is appropriate.

[Don Y]

IMO, they folded too quickly on that one.

Where, ACTUALLY, do they think they were going to go? Feenigs? (why hadn't
they been going there already?) Sahuarita? (how many restaurants and other
accommodations?) Green Valley? (go away! leave us old folks to die in
peace!) Vail?

They came to where they could best be accommodated -- without spending a few
dollars a day on gas to DRIVE to "someplace civilized". For the most part,
they are a pathetic, "cheap" lot. The first question out of their mouth is to
try to locate the "free activities" (you can afford a $100K motor home but
can't afford to PAY for your entertainment? you don't own property, here,
so don't pay taxes -- yet want the benefits those tax dollars fund?)

Locals have learned to be very closed-mouthed about sharing info on the
"non-public" activities that exist. No, I'm not going to invite you over
to the house to share our studio space with the other LOCAL artists. No,
we're not going to invite you to join us on the golf course. Or, clue you
in on the unpublished activities that we know about.

But, hey, you can go play BINGO or GIN at the park district! You'll likely
find lots of other out-of-towners, there! Seems kinda silly to drive that
big behemoth all that way just to play BINGO! <shrug>

[Don Y]

On 8/1/2022 1:00 AM, whit3rd wrote:
> Huh? 'Alarm', as in snooze alarm or fire alarm, or smoke alarm, just means a
> mechanism of warning. It doesn't require an emotional response of fear.

Exactly.

"Your laundry cycle has completed"
"Your toast is done"
"You have neglected to fasten your seat belts"
"The item you're defrosting in the microwave is ready"
"YOU wanted to be notified of this time (of day, email rceipt, etc.)!"
"A door is ajar" (no, a door is a DOOR, not a JAR!)
"Your car is due for scheduled maintenance"
"You've neglected to put the vehicle in park despite shutting off the ignition"
"You've exited the vehicle while it is running"
"If you don't leave now, you'll be late for work"

Some people see fear in everything. And assume fear in others without
proof thereof.

They should remove the "alarms" from all such devices and just be content
to live with the consequences (moldy laundry, burnt toast, personal injury
in auto accidents, late to work, etc.) lest they find themselves in a
perpetual state of panic!

> Time to implement stage 2 of your morning's plan, or plan B
> of water supply for a state. Or, change a battery. Whatever is appropriate.

It's an *alert*, if that is less threatening. But, often there may
be more significant consequences to it's absence (or being ignored).

Ignore the doorbell (alert) and... <shrug> Likely just a vendor or
neighbor. *BUT*, could be the fire department urging you to leave
your residence lest the fire at the neighbor's home involve yours!

Ignore the "brake failure" (alarm) and... ?

[rbowman]

On 08/01/2022 03:04 AM, Don Y wrote:
> Where, ACTUALLY, do they think they were going to go? Feenigs? (why
> hadn't
> they been going there already?) Sahuarita? (how many restaurants and
> other
> accommodations?) Green Valley? (go away! leave us old folks to die in
> peace!) Vail?

Quartzite. I have a small trailer at Why that hasn't moved since the
early '90s. When that scheme went through I registered it as a mobile
home, which costs me about $11 a year in property tax.

If you're familiar with Why it doesn't have much in the way of
accommodations. Luckily the library in Ajo, small as it is, is a branch
of the Pima County library and can pull on its resources.

They also finally put a part-time DMV branch in Ajo so you don't have to
go to Casa or Tucson.

[Don Y]

On 8/1/2022 10:01 AM, rbowman wrote:
> On 08/01/2022 03:04 AM, Don Y wrote:
>> Where, ACTUALLY, do they think they were going to go? Feenigs? (why
>> hadn't
>> they been going there already?) Sahuarita? (how many restaurants and
>> other
>> accommodations?) Green Valley? (go away! leave us old folks to die in
>> peace!) Vail?
>
> Quartzite.

Yeah, but they want to be able to eat at decent NEARBY restaurants,
take advantage of the "free" offerings at the park district, swim
in the public pools, golf on local courses, etc.

And, do so for less than 50c/day -- in gas! :>

> I have a small trailer at Why that hasn't moved since the early
> '90s. When that scheme went through I registered it as a mobile home, which
> costs me about $11 a year in property tax.

Ha! Too funny! Have your absentee ballot sent there -- and forwarded
by a friend! Vote early, vote often!

> If you're familiar with Why it doesn't have much in the way of accommodations.
> Luckily the library in Ajo, small as it is, is a branch of the Pima County
> library and can pull on its resources.

Yeah, I had a cousin come out when he was exploring the country for a
place to spend a few years. He visited Ajo (and isn't there a reservation
out that way?) and decided, "No Thanks"!

[Though he ended up in Gallup -- which can't be much better!]

> They also finally put a part-time DMV branch in Ajo so you don't have to go to
> Casa or Tucson.

Ugh! Reminds me I have to change the address on SWMBO's vehicle registration.
"Come in to any office..."

<frown>

Thankfully, DMV here is considerably faster than in other places I've lived!

[rbowman]

On 08/01/2022 12:30 PM, Don Y wrote:
>
>> I have a small trailer at Why that hasn't moved since the early '90s.
>> When that scheme went through I registered it as a mobile home, which
>> costs me about $11 a year in property tax.
>
> Ha! Too funny! Have your absentee ballot sent there -- and forwarded
> by a friend! Vote early, vote often!

Nah, wrong district. I couldn't vote for Wendy Rogers. It would be
better if she didn't look like a chipmunk caught in the headlights in
most photos.

> Yeah, I had a cousin come out when he was exploring the country for a
> place to spend a few years. He visited Ajo (and isn't there a reservation
> out that way?) and decided, "No Thanks"!

There isn't much there. Phelps Dodge pulled out in '85, leaving an open
pit mine and miles of tailings. They went through the motions every 10
years or so so they won't have to start remediation. PD is gone now,
bought by Freeport-McMoran who will probably try to weasel out of the
liabilities.

When I first went there in '88 PD was selling off the company houses for
about $20k per. I considered it briefly but decided by the time I
retired in 20 years or so they would be money sinks, needing new roofs,
and so forth.

PD ran the company store for a while and pulled out but there is a
grocery store which is adequate if not fancy. Same for the hardware
store. The movie theater died in the '90s, and the restaurants started
following suit.

They built a Border Patrol station at Why which prevented a complete
collapse but it still isn't a thriving community.

The Tohono O'Odham Reservation starts about half a mile east of Why on
86 and ends just west of Three Points. It's an irregular shape but
extends into Mexico so in the US it runs from the border to about 10
miles south of Casa Grande. There's not a lot there. Sells is the
biggest town. I don't think Kitt Peak itself is on the rez but where you
turn to go up the mountain is.

North of Ajo to close to Gila Bend is the Cabeza Prieta Wildlife Refuge
/ Barry Goldwater Bombing Range. You can hike out on it after you call
up to Gila to find out if they're planning a war that day.

It's a great place if you like the desert and have basic tastes.

Gallup is a lot. It's claim to fame is where the Indians come off the
rez to get drunk and kill themselves trying to get home, either in car
wrecks or exposure if they're hoofing it. It's over 6400 feet so winter
is a thing there. You cross the Divide east of town so that's another
little surprise like Flag for people who think I40 is dry and dusty year
around.

[Don Y]

On 8/1/2022 5:03 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On 08/01/2022 12:30 PM, Don Y wrote:
>>
>>> I have a small trailer at Why that hasn't moved since the early '90s.
>>> When that scheme went through I registered it as a mobile home, which
>>> costs me about $11 a year in property tax.
>>
>> Ha! Too funny! Have your absentee ballot sent there -- and forwarded
>> by a friend! Vote early, vote often!
>
> Nah, wrong district. I couldn't vote for Wendy Rogers. It would be better if
> she didn't look like a chipmunk caught in the headlights in most photos.

I find it hard to vote for MOST arizonans! <frown>

>> Yeah, I had a cousin come out when he was exploring the country for a
>> place to spend a few years. He visited Ajo (and isn't there a reservation
>> out that way?) and decided, "No Thanks"!
>
> There isn't much there. Phelps Dodge pulled out in '85, leaving an open pit
> mine and miles of tailings. They went through the motions every 10 years or so
> so they won't have to start remediation. PD is gone now, bought by
> Freeport-McMoran who will probably try to weasel out of the liabilities.

Neighbor lived there for some time. Then divorced and moved here.
She never mentions anything "interesting" about the place -- other than heat.

> When I first went there in '88 PD was selling off the company houses for about
> $20k per. I considered it briefly but decided by the time I retired in 20 years
> or so they would be money sinks, needing new roofs, and so forth.

Those things can be solved with money. I am more concerned with access
to amenities, care facilities, etc. I know I can be at any of two or three
hospitals in 10 minutes; as I get older, that means something to me!

[We'd thought of moving farther out -- less traffic, congestion, better
views, fewer neighbors, etc. But, those things also mean 30+ minute
rides for emergency care, 30+ minute rides to stores, etc.]

> PD ran the company store for a while and pulled out but there is a grocery
> store which is adequate if not fancy. Same for the hardware store. The movie
> theater died in the '90s, and the restaurants started following suit.
>
> They built a Border Patrol station at Why which prevented a complete collapse
> but it still isn't a thriving community.
>
> The Tohono O'Odham Reservation starts about half a mile east of Why on 86 and
> ends just west of Three Points. It's an irregular shape but extends into Mexico
> so in the US it runs from the border to about 10 miles south of Casa Grande.
> There's not a lot there. Sells is the biggest town. I don't think Kitt Peak
> itself is on the rez but where you turn to go up the mountain is.

*Sells* was the place my cousin visited.

> North of Ajo to close to Gila Bend is the Cabeza Prieta Wildlife Refuge / Barry
> Goldwater Bombing Range. You can hike out on it after you call up to Gila to
> find out if they're planning a war that day.
>
> It's a great place if you like the desert and have basic tastes.

<grin> See above.

> Gallup is a lot. It's claim to fame is where the Indians come off the rez to
> get drunk and kill themselves trying to get home, either in car wrecks or
> exposure if they're hoofing it. It's over 6400 feet so winter is a thing there.
> You cross the Divide east of town so that's another little surprise like Flag
> for people who think I40 is dry and dusty year around.

Yeah, one comment my cousin made was how he felt like "a minority", there.

And, how different their culture is. Language, values, traditions, etc.

He didn't claim they were standoffish -- in fact, many invited him into
their homes for traditional meals, etc.

But, he was uncomfortable feeling that *he* was the "different" one!

[rbowman]

On 08/01/2022 08:03 PM, Don Y wrote:
> Neighbor lived there for some time. Then divorced and moved here.
> She never mentions anything "interesting" about the place -- other than
> heat.

There's plenty of that. There is a nice 300 yard range north of town.
You've got to time it right though, before the wind picks up and the
mirage takes over.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssqnPObnG9E

People think of mirages from cartoons but 300 yards of 150+ degree sand
will do it.

I've only seen a classic mirage once, coming down the hill from the CA
border headed to LV. There was a big lake in the valley that isn't on
any map.

> *Sells* was the place my cousin visited.

The grocery store there is an abbreviated Basha's. I'd stop there
sometimes if I got tired of Tuscon before I picked up groceries. I'm a
sucker for maranitos and they'd generally have a few bags. There's a
rodeo and that's about it for Sells.

The real rodeo is at the end of January but it's open range so cattle
are often wandering around the road looking for greenery along the road.

Besides that there isn't much on 86. I came back on the bike after dark
on Dia de los Muertos. Spookiest ride I ever took with the candles
burning in all those roadside shrines. I never did figure out how so
many people killed themselves on a basically straight road with nothing
bigger than a saguaro to hit.

> Yeah, one comment my cousin made was how he felt like "a minority", there.
>
> And, how different their culture is. Language, values, traditions, etc.
>
> He didn't claim they were standoffish -- in fact, many invited him into
> their homes for traditional meals, etc.
>
> But, he was uncomfortable feeling that *he* was the "different" one!

Gallup is about half Navajo, so yeah. You get that in a lot of the small
NM towns, not Navajos but Spanish that have been there since the land
grant days.

It is different. I spent about a week snooping around Chaco Canyon and
got to know some of the rangers. One was a Navajo and he said his family
gave him a hard time when he took the job there. The Navajo were late
arrivals and don't know any more about the Anasazi than the whites but
they thought that canyon was really bad juju. Fascinating place if you
like environmental disasters. Phoenix, Casa Grande, Mesa Verde, and on
and on thought they were in tall cotton until they weren't.

Supposedly 'Navajo' was Hopi for head-bashers. They're not friends. The
Navajo prefer 'Dine', or roughly 'the (real) people'. I think damn near
every tribal name on every continent translates the same. They didn't
name themselves Big Bellies, Pierced Noses, Flatheads, or whatever the
tribe on the other side of the hill called them.

[Don Y]

On 8/2/2022 12:00 AM, rbowman wrote:
> On 08/01/2022 08:03 PM, Don Y wrote:
>> *Sells* was the place my cousin visited.
>
> The grocery store there is an abbreviated Basha's. I'd stop there sometimes if

Is it *really* a Basha's? Or, are you just using that as an example?

> I got tired of Tuscon before I picked up groceries. I'm a sucker for maranitos
> and they'd generally have a few bags. There's a rodeo and that's about it for
> Sells.

Yeah, sort of like Cañon City -- three prisons and a bridge! :>

Or, Cripple Creek -- ?

(actually, I think it is now a gambling "hot spot" -- as hot as one can be in
the middle of nowhere!)

You can sort of understand how many of these places got started. But, got
to wonder how they *persist*!

<frown>

> The real rodeo is at the end of January but it's open range so cattle are often
> wandering around the road looking for greenery along the road.
>
> Besides that there isn't much on 86. I came back on the bike after dark on Dia
> de los Muertos. Spookiest ride I ever took with the candles burning in all
> those roadside shrines. I never did figure out how so many people killed
> themselves on a basically straight road with nothing bigger than a saguaro to hit.

Yeah. Here it's all the white bicycles "parked" amid an assortment of
floral arrangements. I wonder if there is an ordinance that allows
them to exist? Or, prevents them from being disturbed? <shrug>

Or, the stenciled "In Memory Of ..." on the rear windows of vehicles.
Weird.

Talk about cultural differences...

>> Yeah, one comment my cousin made was how he felt like "a minority", there.
>>
>> And, how different their culture is. Language, values, traditions, etc.
>>
>> He didn't claim they were standoffish -- in fact, many invited him into
>> their homes for traditional meals, etc.
>>
>> But, he was uncomfortable feeling that *he* was the "different" one!
>
> Gallup is about half Navajo, so yeah. You get that in a lot of the small NM
> towns, not Navajos but Spanish that have been there since the land grant days.

He taught on the rez. Also found it odd to get used to their attitudes
towards education. On the one hand, they (elders) wanted people like him,
there -- as it represented the only realistic way forward/out of poverty
for their people. On the other, the *individual* commitment to schooling
was pretty flimsy; he'd talk of persistent truancy that would only
(briefly) end when the student (family?) was in danger of losing their
stipend (?) due to non-attendance.

> It is different. I spent about a week snooping around Chaco Canyon and got to
> know some of the rangers. One was a Navajo and he said his family gave him a
> hard time when he took the job there. The Navajo were late arrivals and don't
> know any more about the Anasazi than the whites but they thought that canyon
> was really bad juju. Fascinating place if you like environmental disasters.
> Phoenix, Casa Grande, Mesa Verde, and on and on thought they were in tall
> cotton until they weren't.
>
> Supposedly 'Navajo' was Hopi for head-bashers. They're not friends. The Navajo
> prefer 'Dine', or roughly 'the (real) people'. I think damn near every tribal
> name on every continent translates the same. They didn't name themselves Big
> Bellies, Pierced Noses, Flatheads, or whatever the tribe on the other side of
> the hill called them.

O'Odham = "Desert People". How do we know that? Some *native* told us?
How do we know his folks (grandfolks) didn't tell *him* "Desert People"
simply because they were embarassed to say "People with smelly feet"?

[rbowman]

On 08/02/2022 03:49 AM, Don Y wrote:
> On 8/2/2022 12:00 AM, rbowman wrote:
>> On 08/01/2022 08:03 PM, Don Y wrote:
>>> *Sells* was the place my cousin visited.
>>
>> The grocery store there is an abbreviated Basha's. I'd stop there
>> sometimes if
>
> Is it *really* a Basha's? Or, are you just using that as an example?

It says it's Basha's. It's smaller than one would be in Tucson and
doesn't have the variety but is tuned to what people living on the rez buy.

> Or, Cripple Creek -- ?
>
> (actually, I think it is now a gambling "hot spot" -- as hot as one can
> be in
> the middle of nowhere!)

They built a casino of sorts at Why on the other side of the Why. Most
of the snowbirds at Why or Ajo are the low rent crowd. No $250,000 RVs
there. There's some traffic for Organ Pipe or going down to Puerto
Penasco but unless its coming from Tucson it bypasses the casino. They
tried for an RV campground but don't have the water.

> Yeah. Here it's all the white bicycles "parked" amid an assortment of
> floral arrangements. I wonder if there is an ordinance that allows
> them to exist? Or, prevents them from being disturbed? <shrug>

We have a group that puts up white crosses. Sometimes they'll get
decorated but not frequently. They're also unmarked.

> He taught on the rez. Also found it odd to get used to their attitudes
> towards education. On the one hand, they (elders) wanted people like him,
> there -- as it represented the only realistic way forward/out of poverty
> for their people. On the other, the *individual* commitment to schooling
> was pretty flimsy; he'd talk of persistent truancy that would only
> (briefly) end when the student (family?) was in danger of losing their
> stipend (?) due to non-attendance.

Denise Juneau was the Superintendent of Public Instruction from 2008 to
2016 when she term limited out. Checked all the boxes, Democrat, Indian,
gay but politics in Montana are a little different. She fought tooth and
nail against NCLB knowing full when that small schools with a few Indian
kids were never going to meet the standards.

She tried for the us House but that was a bridge too far so she moved on
to Superintendent of Seattle Public Schools. She eventually got fired
for not being responsive to the needs of minority students, which was a
bit of irony.

> O'Odham = "Desert People". How do we know that? Some *native* told us?
> How do we know his folks (grandfolks) didn't tell *him* "Desert People"
> simply because they were embarassed to say "People with smelly feet"?

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Flathead_Nation,_Montana_-_bilingual_English-Salish_road_signs_3.jpg

There is a fad here for road signs that nobody can pronounce and may or
may not be what anybody ever called the place. They renamed Squaw Peak
to Ch-paa-qn to be politically correct. Originally they thought it meant
'old woman' but then decided it meant 'shining mountain'. The current
theory is 'gray, treeless mountain with no game'.

[Don Y]

On 8/2/2022 9:54 AM, rbowman wrote:
> On 08/02/2022 03:49 AM, Don Y wrote:
>> On 8/2/2022 12:00 AM, rbowman wrote:
>>> On 08/01/2022 08:03 PM, Don Y wrote:
>>>> *Sells* was the place my cousin visited.
>>>
>>> The grocery store there is an abbreviated Basha's. I'd stop there
>>> sometimes if
>>
>> Is it *really* a Basha's? Or, are you just using that as an example?
>
> It says it's Basha's. It's smaller than one would be in Tucson and doesn't have
> the variety but is tuned to what people living on the rez buy.

That's surprising. IIRC, Basha's is still a family business. Interesting
to se they'd extend themselves (geographically) that far -- and into such
a wonky market!

>> Yeah. Here it's all the white bicycles "parked" amid an assortment of
>> floral arrangements. I wonder if there is an ordinance that allows
>> them to exist? Or, prevents them from being disturbed? <shrug>
>
> We have a group that puts up white crosses. Sometimes they'll get decorated but
> not frequently. They're also unmarked.

So, they have a database or other list of sites? Or, "Hey, Bob... let's put
one over here!"?

>> He taught on the rez. Also found it odd to get used to their attitudes
>> towards education. On the one hand, they (elders) wanted people like him,
>> there -- as it represented the only realistic way forward/out of poverty
>> for their people. On the other, the *individual* commitment to schooling
>> was pretty flimsy; he'd talk of persistent truancy that would only
>> (briefly) end when the student (family?) was in danger of losing their
>> stipend (?) due to non-attendance.
>
> Denise Juneau was the Superintendent of Public Instruction from 2008 to 2016
> when she term limited out. Checked all the boxes, Democrat, Indian, gay but
> politics in Montana are a little different. She fought tooth and nail against
> NCLB knowing full when that small schools with a few Indian kids were never
> going to meet the standards.

So, rather than addressing the shortfall, let's lower the bar? <frown>

> She tried for the us House but that was a bridge too far so she moved on to
> Superintendent of Seattle Public Schools. She eventually got fired for not
> being responsive to the needs of minority students, which was a bit of irony.

Too funny.

The common thread in all folks sucking off the gummit is "look out for #1".

>> O'Odham = "Desert People". How do we know that? Some *native* told us?
>> How do we know his folks (grandfolks) didn't tell *him* "Desert People"
>> simply because they were embarassed to say "People with smelly feet"?
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Flathead_Nation,_Montana_-_bilingual_English-Salish_road_signs_3.jpg
>
>
> There is a fad here for road signs that nobody can pronounce and may or may not
> be what anybody ever called the place. They renamed Squaw Peak to Ch-paa-qn to
> be politically correct. Originally they thought it meant 'old woman' but then
> decided it meant 'shining mountain'. The current theory is 'gray, treeless
> mountain with no game'.

I always found the foreigners (which could mean anyone from outside New
England) trying to pronounce names like Worcester, Billerica, Berlin,
Cheesequake, Poughkeepsie, etc. to be amusing. "You're not from around here,
are you?"

Friends who did a stint in Guam & Hawaii claim some of the signs/location
names are very "polynesian" (?)

[rbowman]

On 08/02/2022 11:23 AM, Don Y wrote:
> On 8/2/2022 9:54 AM, rbowman wrote:
>> On 08/02/2022 03:49 AM, Don Y wrote:
>>> On 8/2/2022 12:00 AM, rbowman wrote:
>>>> On 08/01/2022 08:03 PM, Don Y wrote:
>>>>> *Sells* was the place my cousin visited.
>>>>
>>>> The grocery store there is an abbreviated Basha's. I'd stop there
>>>> sometimes if
>>>
>>> Is it *really* a Basha's? Or, are you just using that as an example?
>>
>> It says it's Basha's. It's smaller than one would be in Tucson and
>> doesn't have the variety but is tuned to what people living on the rez
>> buy.
>
> That's surprising. IIRC, Basha's is still a family business. Interesting
> to se they'd extend themselves (geographically) that far -- and into such
> a wonky market!

Still there, apparently.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sells,+AZ+85634/@31.9146395,-111.8884597,526m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x86d500c56bf08e8b:0x3e107f88cb6e9c6a!8m2!3d31.9120215!4d-111.881234

tinyurl.com/3wsrasuz

One stop shopping; pick up your food stamps and head for Bashas.

>> We have a group that puts up white crosses. Sometimes they'll get
>> decorated but not frequently. They're also unmarked.
>
> So, they have a database or other list of sites? Or, "Hey, Bob... let's
> put
> one over here!"?

I've never been able to find it although it must exist. One appeared
about a half mile down the road and I don't remember any accident there.
There's another one about three miles away at an intersection. I saw
activity there one morning on the way to work with a Harley on its side
but I don't know if the rider was the cross or not. There's another one
a little further on that has some flowers so somebody must know who it was.

>> Denise Juneau was the Superintendent of Public Instruction from 2008
>> to 2016 when she term limited out. Checked all the boxes, Democrat,
>> Indian, gay but politics in Montana are a little different. She fought
>> tooth and nail against NCLB knowing full when that small schools with
>> a few Indian kids were never going to meet the standards.
>
> So, rather than addressing the shortfall, let's lower the bar? <frown>

The schools do the best they can in places like Browning (Blackfeet) or
Lame Deer (Northern Cheyenne) but it's a losing battle.

https://www.publicschoolreview.com/lame-deer-school-profile

Towns on the Flathead Reservation like Polson do a little better but
they're about 75% white. The story behind that was another historical
screwing. The treaty established the rez, with the tribes relocated from
the Bitterroot valley. Each household was allocated a parcel of land
with water rights. Then the Great White Fathers said 'Look at all the
land left over! We'll sell it to white settlers'.

The Confederated Salish & Kootenai have managed to claw back a little.
This year they got control of the Bison Range than had been run by the
US Fish & Wildlife for a hundred years or so. You also need a tribal
permit for camping, recreation, and fishing on the rez. The fishing
permit is sort of double jeopardy since you still need a MT fishing
license if you're white.

Anyway Juneau had taught on the rez and knew exactly how it was going to
play out more than some Bush bureaucrat. Most of the Indians have very
little interest in joining White Civ.

> I always found the foreigners (which could mean anyone from outside New
> England) trying to pronounce names like Worcester, Billerica, Berlin,
> Cheesequake, Poughkeepsie, etc. to be amusing. "You're not from around
> here,
> are you?"

Yeah, Warchester was always a show stopper. Even Albany is a two
syllable word with no 'l' in site. Troy is almost impossible to screw up
though.

A lot of the place names where I grew up were German/Dutch. To handle
Poestenkill it helps to understand umlauts and their modifications over
the years. The 't' is optional too. The oldest gravestones of my
grandmother's family have the umlaut, then oe, and finally just e. It's
luck of the draw I guess. Poestenkill went with the English 'o' others
go with the English short e.

The NYS Berlin follows the NH pronunciation but I have a feeling that
might be a WWI thing. They tried renaming places with mixed success.

[Don Y]

On 8/2/2022 4:24 PM, rbowman wrote:
>>>>> The grocery store there is an abbreviated Basha's. I'd stop there
>>>>> sometimes if
>>>>
>>>> Is it *really* a Basha's? Or, are you just using that as an example?
>>>
>>> It says it's Basha's. It's smaller than one would be in Tucson and
>>> doesn't have the variety but is tuned to what people living on the rez
>>> buy.
>>
>> That's surprising. IIRC, Basha's is still a family business. Interesting
>> to se they'd extend themselves (geographically) that far -- and into such
>> a wonky market!
>
> Still there, apparently.
>
> https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sells,+AZ+85634/@31.9146395,-111.8884597,526m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x86d500c56bf08e8b:0x3e107f88cb6e9c6a!8m2!3d31.9120215!4d-111.881234
>

> One stop shopping; pick up your food stamps and head for Bashas.

Wow, pretty *bleak* area! Wouldn't want to break down, there! No doubt
they (seriously!) advertise The Best Prices in Town! <rolls eyes>

[Basha's, here, tends to be a bit pricier than the other chains
and often dubious quality on produce]

>>> We have a group that puts up white crosses. Sometimes they'll get
>>> decorated but not frequently. They're also unmarked.
>>
>> So, they have a database or other list of sites? Or, "Hey, Bob... let's
>> put
>> one over here!"?
>
> I've never been able to find it although it must exist. One appeared about a
> half mile down the road and I don't remember any accident there. There's
> another one about three miles away at an intersection. I saw activity there one
> morning on the way to work with a Harley on its side but I don't know if the
> rider was the cross or not. There's another one a little further on that has
> some flowers so somebody must know who it was.

I can understand shortly after such an accident (e.g., one year anniversary).
But, if folks just keep "decorating" these sites, they'll be all over the
place! Even if you just address bicycle/pedestrian/motorcycle fatalities!

>>> Denise Juneau was the Superintendent of Public Instruction from 2008
>>> to 2016 when she term limited out. Checked all the boxes, Democrat,
>>> Indian, gay but politics in Montana are a little different. She fought
>>> tooth and nail against NCLB knowing full when that small schools with
>>> a few Indian kids were never going to meet the standards.
>>
>> So, rather than addressing the shortfall, let's lower the bar? <frown>
>
> The schools do the best they can in places like Browning (Blackfeet) or Lame
> Deer (Northern Cheyenne) but it's a losing battle.
>
> https://www.publicschoolreview.com/lame-deer-school-profile
>
> Towns on the Flathead Reservation like Polson do a little better but they're
> about 75% white. The story behind that was another historical screwing. The
> treaty established the rez, with the tribes relocated from the Bitterroot
> valley. Each household was allocated a parcel of land with water rights. Then
> the Great White Fathers said 'Look at all the land left over! We'll sell it to
> white settlers'.
>
> The Confederated Salish & Kootenai have managed to claw back a little. This
> year they got control of the Bison Range than had been run by the US Fish &
> Wildlife for a hundred years or so. You also need a tribal permit for camping,
> recreation, and fishing on the rez. The fishing permit is sort of double
> jeopardy since you still need a MT fishing license if you're white.
>
> Anyway Juneau had taught on the rez and knew exactly how it was going to play
> out more than some Bush bureaucrat. Most of the Indians have very little
> interest in joining White Civ.

Yet more evidence of arrogance. Sort o flike thinking The Deaf *want*
to be a part of the hearing world ("OhMiGosh! If *I* can hear then EVERYONE
must want to be able to hear! You poor thing...")

>> I always found the foreigners (which could mean anyone from outside New
>> England) trying to pronounce names like Worcester, Billerica, Berlin,
>> Cheesequake, Poughkeepsie, etc. to be amusing. "You're not from around
>> here,
>> are you?"
>
> Yeah, Warchester was always a show stopper. Even Albany is a two syllable word
> with no 'l' in site. Troy is almost impossible to screw up though.
>
> A lot of the place names where I grew up were German/Dutch. To handle
> Poestenkill it helps to understand umlauts and their modifications over the
> years. The 't' is optional too. The oldest gravestones of my grandmother's
> family have the umlaut, then oe, and finally just e. It's luck of the draw I
> guess. Poestenkill went with the English 'o' others go with the English short e.
>
> The NYS Berlin follows the NH pronunciation but I have a feeling that might be
> a WWI thing. They tried renaming places with mixed success.

I used to travel... A LOT! Part of my "cheap entertainment" was taking note
of how The Locals pronounced common words, place names, etc. Plus the
inevitable differences in the names they apply to everyday items.

I particularly enjoyed the redundant (?) "ball bat". Or, a glass of
"melk". "Mayshed" potatoes. etc.

And, of course, motor "earl".

To this day, I almost consciously take note of certain speech/pronunciation
patterns and pidgeon-hole the speaker.

[rbowman]

On 08/02/2022 08:35 PM, Don Y wrote:
> On 8/2/2022 4:24 PM, rbowman wrote:


> Wow, pretty *bleak* area! Wouldn't want to break down, there! No doubt
> they (seriously!) advertise The Best Prices in Town! <rolls eyes>

There isn't much between Three Points and Ajo. There are a couple of
schools at San Simon and a couple of 'travel centers' which may or may
not have dried up and blown away.

I really prefer Tucson to Phoenix and they're about the same distance
but at least on the run to Phoenix there's Gila, fwiw, and another short
hop and you're in Buckeye.

> I can understand shortly after such an accident (e.g., one year
> anniversary).
> But, if folks just keep "decorating" these sites, they'll be all over the
> place! Even if you just address bicycle/pedestrian/motorcycle fatalities!

There is a cemetery on the way to town that I sometimes stop at if I'm
bicycling. The corner closest to the road is for infants, meaning
anything from still births up to one or two years old. There are toys,
pinwheels, solar light things and other decorations, sometimes with
parents, I guess, hanging out. Sad and spooky.

> I used to travel... A LOT! Part of my "cheap entertainment" was taking
> note
> of how The Locals pronounced common words, place names, etc. Plus the
> inevitable differences in the names they apply to everyday items.
>
> I particularly enjoyed the redundant (?) "ball bat". Or, a glass of
> "melk". "Mayshed" potatoes. etc.

I tend towards 'melk' and I'm a switch hitter on route vs. root. When I
was a kid my accent wasn't really typical for the area. Now some people
pick up on New England or back east someplace.

Then there are the nuances of tonic, pop, and soda. It took me a while
to figure out 'tonic' was generic and not a flavoring for gin. Grinder,
submarine, Italian, hoagie and the distinction between a piece of peetz
and a slice. Barbecue -- I personally of the coastal North Carolina
school -- if there is a tomato anywhere near it it ain't barbecue and
it's definitely pig.

[Don Y]

On 8/2/2022 9:27 PM, rbowman wrote:

>> Wow, pretty *bleak* area! Wouldn't want to break down, there! No doubt
>> they (seriously!) advertise The Best Prices in Town! <rolls eyes>
>
> There isn't much between Three Points and Ajo. There are a couple of schools at
> San Simon and a couple of 'travel centers' which may or may not have dried up
> and blown away.
>
> I really prefer Tucson to Phoenix and they're about the same distance but at
> least on the run to Phoenix there's Gila, fwiw, and another short hop and
> you're in Buckeye.

"Short"? Nothing in The West is "short"! :>

I cringe when I have to drive across town to the oriental market
(and never leave the city limits!). Growing up (blue laws),
I could make it to the Massachusetts state line in a similar
amount of time if we wanted beer and it was after 8PM!

[Of course, you needed a heavy foot but there were no traffic
signals that you had to worry about!]

Similarly, a neighbor *commutes* to feenigs three times a week.
WTF? I could be *in* NYC in less time. Or beantown.

A 20 minute drive was *long*. And, I'd pass through 3 or 4
towns along the way! (complete with shopping centers, gas
stations, fire departments, etc.)

But, at least it's not *kansas* (or MT! :> )

>> I can understand shortly after such an accident (e.g., one year
>> anniversary).
>> But, if folks just keep "decorating" these sites, they'll be all over the
>> place! Even if you just address bicycle/pedestrian/motorcycle fatalities!
>
> There is a cemetery on the way to town that I sometimes stop at if I'm
> bicycling. The corner closest to the road is for infants, meaning anything from
> still births up to one or two years old. There are toys, pinwheels, solar light
> things and other decorations, sometimes with parents, I guess, hanging out. Sad
> and spooky.

But, conceptually, a cemetary is where you *expect* graves. We *know* that
there isn't anyone buried at all of these little roadside "shrines". So,
why are they there?

If someone died of a heart attack in a shopping center, would they put up a
memorial there, as well?

Is there something specially significant about traffic-related fatalities
that merits such a memorial?

<shrug> Dunno. I don't understand that aspect of their culture.

(likewise, the "In memoriam" notes elegantly lettered on the back
windows of their pickups, etc.)

Other aspects of that culture are easier to understand. E.g., The Siesta.
(excellent idea!)

>> I used to travel... A LOT! Part of my "cheap entertainment" was taking
>> note
>> of how The Locals pronounced common words, place names, etc. Plus the
>> inevitable differences in the names they apply to everyday items.
>>
>> I particularly enjoyed the redundant (?) "ball bat". Or, a glass of
>> "melk". "Mayshed" potatoes. etc.
>
> I tend towards 'melk' and I'm a switch hitter on route vs. root. When I was a
> kid my accent wasn't really typical for the area. Now some people pick up on
> New England or back east someplace.

My home town has a very distinctive accent that isn't present "two towns over".
Most notable is a glottal stop on T's that effectively cuts words in half at
such points. The R mangling is a combination of that of NYC and beantown.
Final G's are very hard. "Quarter" often comes out sounding like "corter",
etc.

Plus oddities in vocabulary (e.g., "packie" for package store).

Of course, you never notice this growing up.

But, when you've been away for any length of time, its as if there's a
daemon watching to encounter it and, when you do encounter it in
another speaker, it's almost startling in terms of how strong the
recognition!

[I worked with a guy, here, and it was a matter of minutes before I
cornered him on this just from the little we had said to each other
at that point.]

> Then there are the nuances of tonic, pop, and soda.

Is Moxie sold in any other part of the country?

Frappe and milkshake (the former, thankyouverymuch! always amusing to see
the disappointment in folks' eyes when they order the latter!)

> It took me a while to
> figure out 'tonic' was generic and not a flavoring for gin. Grinder, submarine,
> Italian, hoagie

and "hero" (gyro)

> and the distinction between a piece of peetz and a slice.

And that pizza is *thin*, not a meal-per-slice. And, has a layer of oil atop
designed to burn the roof of your mouth!

And, heaven forbid if you took out a fork/knife to eat same (just fold it and
open wide)!

> Barbecue -- I personally of the coastal North Carolina school -- if there is a
> tomato anywhere near it it ain't barbecue and it's definitely pig.

I hated pork, growing up. Mother **always** overcooked meat. Pork, doubly so
(fear of trich?). Pork chops were excellent alternatives if the leather soles
of your shoes had worn out! <frown>

I attended a friend's party in my 20's and he roasted a pig. It was *amazing*!
Absolutely amazing!

SWMBO and I have an oriental-style meal made from pork tenderloin each Sunday.
EVERY sunday -- even holidays (which are pizza days; pizza gets bumped to the
following monday). Finestkind -- on both counts!

[rbowman]

On 08/03/2022 03:22 AM, Don Y wrote:
> On 8/2/2022 9:27 PM, rbowman wrote:
>
>>> Wow, pretty *bleak* area! Wouldn't want to break down, there! No doubt
>>> they (seriously!) advertise The Best Prices in Town! <rolls eyes>
>>
>> There isn't much between Three Points and Ajo. There are a couple of
>> schools at San Simon and a couple of 'travel centers' which may or may
>> not have dried up and blown away.
>>
>> I really prefer Tucson to Phoenix and they're about the same distance
>> but at least on the run to Phoenix there's Gila, fwiw, and another
>> short hop and you're in Buckeye.
>
> "Short"? Nothing in The West is "short"! :>

Ed Abbey measured distances in the west by the number of long necks
consumed. I don't know what changed but in the late '80s the road
shoulders in AZ were gardens of beer bottles and Jimson weed. There was
a concerted effort to clean up the mess and it didn't come back. Maybe a
preference switch to cans that blow away out of sight?

I've never been into commuting. If I had a reasonably long contract in
Boston I'd rent an apartment and only return to NH on the weekends. It
was only 60 miles but I had no desire to waste 2+ hours a day.

[Don Y]

On 8/3/2022 7:36 AM, rbowman wrote:
> On 08/03/2022 03:22 AM, Don Y wrote:
>> On 8/2/2022 9:27 PM, rbowman wrote:
>>
>>>> Wow, pretty *bleak* area! Wouldn't want to break down, there! No doubt
>>>> they (seriously!) advertise The Best Prices in Town! <rolls eyes>
>>>
>>> There isn't much between Three Points and Ajo. There are a couple of
>>> schools at San Simon and a couple of 'travel centers' which may or may
>>> not have dried up and blown away.
>>>
>>> I really prefer Tucson to Phoenix and they're about the same distance
>>> but at least on the run to Phoenix there's Gila, fwiw, and another
>>> short hop and you're in Buckeye.
>>
>> "Short"? Nothing in The West is "short"! :>
>
> Ed Abbey measured distances in the west by the number of long necks consumed. I

I guess it's more practical than Smoots!

> don't know what changed but in the late '80s the road shoulders in AZ were
> gardens of beer bottles and Jimson weed. There was a concerted effort to clean
> up the mess and it didn't come back. Maybe a preference switch to cans that
> blow away out of sight?
>
> I've never been into commuting. If I had a reasonably long contract in Boston
> I'd rent an apartment and only return to NH on the weekends. It was only 60
> miles but I had no desire to waste 2+ hours a day.

My worst commute was while attending school; a daily trip from Arlington into
Cambridge for classes. Then, over the bridge to meander through beantown until
I could get down to Dedham/Norwood to work. Then, a late (11P) return home up
128 to Fresh Pond.

It wasn't fun -- but, it wasn't unbearable. IIRC, each leg was about 25
minutes.

Aside from my current commutes (bedroom to office), most have been a mile or
three. And, rarely "into" a metro area (save a job in Chicago but that's just
one big sprawl AND has decent infrastructure to move vehicles -- as long
as you don't go as far as downtown).

These folks who regularly spend an hour or four a day in a vehicle are
just nuts!

[rbowman]

On 08/03/2022 09:42 AM, Don Y wrote:
> side from my current commutes (bedroom to office), most have been a mile or
> three. And, rarely "into" a metro area (save a job in Chicago but
> that's just
> one big sprawl AND has decent infrastructure to move vehicles -- as long
> as you don't go as far as downtown).

I only go into the office two days a week and it's 8.2 miles one way. No
big deal since that's where Albertsons is. And CostCo. And Lowes. And
... About 30 years ago I was happy when they build a grocery store on
the outskirts of town. It was about the only thing there on what was
essentially a bypass road. Then the big box stores came.

[Don Y]

On 8/3/2022 8:50 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On 08/03/2022 09:42 AM, Don Y wrote:
>> side from my current commutes (bedroom to office), most have been a mile or
>> three. And, rarely "into" a metro area (save a job in Chicago but
>> that's just
>> one big sprawl AND has decent infrastructure to move vehicles -- as long
>> as you don't go as far as downtown).
>
> I only go into the office two days a week and it's 8.2 miles one way. No big

A lot depends on how easy that distance is to navigate. If I head out of town
for 8 miles, it will take me about 8 minutes (55MPH avg -- few lights!). If I
head *into* town, that number would easily double (20MP average speed)

And, the number of bozos you have to contend with on the way -- the EV drivers
diligently watching their fuel efficiency numbers to eek out every last
electron; the olde fartes driving in the left lane so they can "follow" the
dividing line; bicyclists who want to ride the line delimiting the bike lane
("give them an additional 3 ft!"); the idiots who want to turn left from the
right lane (or vice versa); etc.

> deal since that's where Albertsons is. And CostCo. And Lowes. And ... About

We're near the edge of town yet have lots of nearby "amenities". Costco,
Lowes, Home Depot, Sprouts, Frys, Safeway, Albertson's, Post Office, two
hospitals, Walmart, country club and the usual smattering of drug stores,
fast food/etc. places are all within a few miles of our front door.
(I think one of the hospitals may be a full *3* miles from here)

And, this side of town is the LESS DEVELOPED! (sheesh!)

The downside of all this is it is too tempting to visit lots of different
vendors in a single shopping trip. Today was Albertson's, Costco (plus gas)
and Frys. But, I can't imagine what the folks in Summerhaven must
do when it comes to shopping -- with just that one store! (I don't even
think there's a gas station there!)

When we (SWMBO) used to do the shopping together, it was a grueling
pilgrimage: "Let's stop at Michael's... and JoAnn's... and The Bread
Store... and we need to pick up some acetone at Lowes... and blueberries
are on sale at Fry's... and Sprouts for produce... and Costco has those
cookies that I like on sale... and you have some books waiting at the
library... and we should check the POBox while we're out..." Some days,
*10* stops in a 2 hour period.

And, not more than 10 miles on the odometer! <frown>

Now, I do the shopping solo and get it done with fewer stops and in less time.

> 30 years ago I was happy when they build a grocery store on the outskirts of
> town. It was about the only thing there on what was essentially a bypass road.
> Then the big box stores came.

Yeah, I am amazed at how quickly things grow -- metastasize?!

When I lived in Denver, I was at the southernmost limits of the metro area.
Everything was "north".

I was out visiting friends a few years later and we were headed out to
a restaurant. Not recognizing anything, I assumed we were more "in town"
and, thus, had to head SOUTH to get back out to the area where I lived.

Yet, we were heading NORTH. For quite a long drive!

"Yikes! ALL of this is new?? Isn't that Castle Rock we just passed??!"

[rbowman]

On 08/03/2022 10:35 PM, Don Y wrote:
> "Yikes! ALL of this is new?? Isn't that Castle Rock we just passed??!"

The closest I've been to Denver in years was Fort Collins before I cut
over to Estes Park. That was bad enough. About 15 years ago we had Wheat
Ridge, Littleton, and Castle Rock but they all got sucked into Denver's
system. Denver is a rather unique critter.

[Don Y]

Yeah, I had a Littleton address but technically lived in uninc Arapahoe.
Castle Rock was *definitely* south. And, nothing but coyotes betwixt!

So, to be driving north and encounter Castle Rock *before* getting to my
neck of the woods was downright *scary*! Esp as it hadn't been all that
long that I'd last been there!

The same is slowly happening here as feenigs creeps further south and
tucson north -- with picacho, casa grande, etc. slowly swelling in
between.

But, at least they are still separate "legal entities". Places like
chicago just "never end"! (you mean we're STILL in the city??)
Amusing when contrasted with someplace *tiny* -- like beantown!