PCB toner transfer, iron temps, etc

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Active8

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Oct 12, 2003, 11:06:51 AM10/12/03
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hi:

not sure why i'm crossposting. nothing but a bunch of porn ads and bs in
AEMC

there was discussion some weeks ago about toner transfer and iron temps.
i put my temp probe to an old GE iron today. the probe that goes with
the DMM, not the p probe, ok?

linen (all the way up): 170-196 C. 196 on first test. 170 at coolest -
thermostat off. stabilized at around 175 C. putting the probe between
the iron and an ironing board drops this temp. you know why.

wool (lowest part of range, i.e., colored band): 157 - 159 C

warm: 160 C ... damn! that's clear at the other end. wool is at about 2
o'clock and the whole range is PI radians from 9 o'clock to 3 o'clock.

"off": 116 C !!!!!!!!!!!!!

i better get my travel iron from storage :-)

ice in the freezer: -13 C ... that should pass health dept inspection.

ice water: 6 C ... that'll fail OSHA in the summer.

boiling water for tea: 96-98 C let steep 5-10 minutes or boil the
bags/loose leaf. drink fast. climb walls. run around the block.

so i think the temp probe is pretty accurate.

most dry-film photopolymers (soldermask/photoresist) work best if the
laminator temp is 110 C (+/- 5 C)

anyone still have the instructions from their wet/blue toner transfer
film? what's the recommended temp?

anyone care to reiterate what the fusing temp of toner is?

the iron used for this test works best on linen for me. i'm sure the
temp will be higher when the iron is on the copper-clad since the
surrounding air is probably skewing my measurements.

brs,
mike

JeffM

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Oct 12, 2003, 8:17:26 PM10/12/03
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white stuff http://www.dynaart.com/1_tts/c_pcb/c1_main/main_frameset.html
(what an irritating site--and no data on the site)
"Set the iron to its highest setting
and apply heat directly to the top of this stack for 3 minutes.
Do not move the iron."

blue stuff http://www.techniks.com/how_to.htm
"Suggested starting temperature is 275-325 degrees F.
Iron setting is generally "polyester". Iron temperatures vary.
Iron until board has completely and fully reached the temperature of
the iron. Time varies with the size and thickness of the board.
Generally this is 1.5 to 10 min. DO NOT USE THE STEAM SETTING!"

JeffM

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Oct 12, 2003, 8:24:30 PM10/12/03
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JeffM

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Oct 12, 2003, 8:26:12 PM10/12/03
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Active8

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Oct 12, 2003, 9:24:22 PM10/12/03
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On 12 Oct 2003 17:17:26 -0700, JeffM, said...

> white stuff http://www.dynaart.com/1_tts/c_pcb/c1_main/main_frameset.html
> (what an irritating site--and no data on the site)
> "Set the iron to its highest setting
> and apply heat directly to the top of this stack for 3 minutes.
> Do not move the iron."

uh, try that sometime - with the white stuff. i bet the holes in the
iron foul things up. i used blue TT film and i ended up doing what i
recently read, which is to do the above *and* use the butt of the iron
under pressure to get the toner to adhere. pretty sure that guy used the
white film.

if you look at most of the posts and articles concerning toner transfer,
you 'll see that everyone is using the linen setting *and* no one that i
can recall is doing the above. and i seem to remember that some used the
white stuff 'cause it's cheaper.

i like the fast etch method presented. too bad the author can't deduce
that persulfates aren't working as fast because the copper is being
oxidized so there's no ion layer. i *think* that's the reason, anyway.


>
> blue stuff http://www.techniks.com/how_to.htm
> "Suggested starting temperature is 275-325 degrees F.
> Iron setting is generally "polyester".

then my iron must really suck! cotton/poly is between wool and linen and
linen was what? 175 C. no wonder i (and maybe those other guys) had to
work like a bitch. but i did it with another iron once on the
recommended setting and worked like a bitch with that one, too. someone
mentioned paint thinner or laquer thinner to get the toner off and said
it was easy. i hope so because i, again, worked like a bitch with
acetone.

are you seening a pattern, here?

check out thier roll laminator. $150. i saw one at walmart yesterday for
$30. i opened the box. no temp info. thin stuff only. might be hackable.
need to be able to set for 110 C for dry-film and there's no info on the
temp range for that $150 unit.

seems to me that an affordable roll laminator was one of Don Lancaster's
things that he'd like to see, per ISMM.

i got my blue film from DC electronics and the babe on the phone, though
really nice, gave me a bunch of useless info from the instructions.
again, you have to set that freakin' iron all the way up.

> Iron temperatures vary.
> Iron until board has completely and fully reached the temperature of
> the iron.

yeah. stick your tongue on it if you're not sure ;-)

> Time varies with the size and thickness of the board.
> Generally this is 1.5 to 10 min. DO NOT USE THE STEAM SETTING!"

i truly beleive there are many that have never used their own products.
Klein Tools makes great leather holsters, but they've never climbed
their sorry assses up a pole and checked out some of the little
improvements that could be made.
>

brs,
mike

Active8

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Oct 12, 2003, 9:27:48 PM10/12/03
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lessee here. you're the guy who started the thread on how to post and
now you triple post. fuck it. i'll

1. top post.
2. post in <u>HTML</u>
3. incorrectly snip the fuck out of things

On 12 Oct 2003 17:26:12 -0700, JeffM, said...
<snipped>


> white stuff http://www.dynaart.com/1_tts/c_pcb/c1_main/main_frameset.html
> (what an irritating site--and no data on the site)

<end snip>

it is an irritating site.

<snipped><snapped> and <fubar'd>


> "Set the iron to its highest setting
> and apply heat directly to the top of this stack for 3 minutes.
> Do not move the iron."

<end snip>

right. let the holes f things up.

stick some nonsense in here to snipe :-) how about cancelling the other
2 follow-ups, john? i'll even move this to the first one so it all comes
out real purty-like.

<snip again>


>
> blue stuff http://www.techniks.com/how_to.htm
> "Suggested starting temperature is 275-325 degrees F.
> Iron setting is generally "polyester". Iron temperatures vary.
> Iron until board has completely and fully reached the temperature of
> the iron. Time varies with the size and thickness of the board.
> Generally this is 1.5 to 10 min. DO NOT USE THE STEAM SETTING!"

<end snip>

what else can i do? i know! i've just been alerted to the fact that
fecal matter i mean dark matter replied to the post where i reamed his
ass for being a dickhead to you all. i think i'll see what he has to
say. he actually posted a quote of something i said, once. he was
bitching about a *real* mild rebuke i made to someone else. it paled in
comparison to what he's doing now.

brs,
mike

Active8

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Oct 12, 2003, 10:30:30 PM10/12/03
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On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 01:24:22 GMT, Active8, said...

> > blue stuff http://www.techniks.com/how_to.htm
> > "Suggested starting temperature is 275-325 degrees F.
> > Iron setting is generally "polyester".

uh, duh! sorry. i see the temp is in F now. either way, people have been
using linen. maybe this new film is different.


>
> then my iron must really suck! cotton/poly is between wool and linen and

> linen was what? 175 C. [...]
<snip>

brs,
mike

Martin Riddle

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Oct 12, 2003, 11:23:37 PM10/12/03
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I use a hobby sealing iron, has no holes. Works great.

Cheers

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Active8

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Oct 12, 2003, 11:38:24 PM10/12/03
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On 12 Oct 2003 17:17:26 -0700, JeffM, said...
> white stuff http://www.dynaart.com/1_tts/c_pcb/c1_main/main_frameset.html
> (what an irritating site--and no data on the site)

did you notice that there's no info on qty for the price? now that's
irritating. even the order page just shows the weight. the techniks site
is worse, IMO. look at the wholesale page. white on blue. ouch!

what other data is lacking? organized specs? that would help. no links
to pages that haven't been completed. hell they could at least put a
note next to the link.

> "Set the iron to its highest setting
> and apply heat directly to the top of this stack for 3 minutes.
> Do not move the iron."

this stuff does look like a major improvement over the old stuff like
the blue stuff in the link below which doesn't appear to have improved
at all.

one of those magazine articles mentioned 3 mil traces and RF work. i
wonder if the traces were *as designed* or if they smeared/expanded.

so all those articles i've read on how to use that (obsolete?) wet/blue
film will be useless when i run out if this new stuff is as good as it
appears to be. that stuff was $40/10, IIRC. if so, it's a lot cheaper
now.

> blue stuff http://www.techniks.com/how_to.htm
> "Suggested starting temperature is 275-325 degrees F.
> Iron setting is generally "polyester". Iron temperatures vary.
> Iron until board has completely and fully reached the temperature of
> the iron. Time varies with the size and thickness of the board.
> Generally this is 1.5 to 10 min. DO NOT USE THE STEAM SETTING!"

and that babe i mentioned... i may have called techniks directly now
that i think of it. IIRC she said the wet stuff was blue and "wet"
refered to the "better" release material which made finer lines
possible. i may have my wires crossed. it was a while ago but i think
she had it wrong. i remember this because when she said wet, i asked if
it could be soaked off. yeah, it can. but it's not PnP blue. so that's
why i've been saying wet/blue. sorry.

sorry about having to come back to fill in some blanks, too.

brs,
mike
>

Active8

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Oct 12, 2003, 11:40:45 PM10/12/03
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On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 03:23:37 GMT, Martin Riddle, said...

> I use a hobby sealing iron, has no holes. Works great.
>
> Cheers
is that the one they sell for R/C air work? hell, i can't remember what
they sealed. i read a bunch of construction articles a while back.

brs,
mike

Martin Riddle

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Oct 13, 2003, 7:11:24 PM10/13/03
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yes, its used for the monocoat coverings (shrink wrap for models).
Its a little small, but has a curve foot at the tip. good for spot finishing.

cheers


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JeffM

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Oct 13, 2003, 11:56:02 PM10/13/03
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>the guy who started the thread on how to post
>and now you triple post.

Google Groups server error.

I didn't think it went thru.
It was the ack page that wasn't coming back.
First time I'd seen it. Now I know.

JeffM

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Oct 14, 2003, 4:38:45 AM10/14/03
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Haven't actually used the white stuff
--just happened to have some laying around.

After my ancient iron melted the film the 1st time,
I broke out my K thermocouple and set the iron for 325 degrees F.


>>someone mentioned paint thinner or laquer thinner to get the toner off

>>and said it was easy. ...worked like a bitch with acetone.

Acetone worked great for me. Higher than a kite the 1st time.


>>the babe on the phone, though really nice...useless info

Yup. Manufacturer's engineering staff or don't waste your time.


>Iron until board has completely and fully
>reached the temperature of the iron.

>> yeah. stick your tongue on it if you're not sure ;-)

I hammered a bead-thermocouple as flat as I could
and stuck it under the FR4.
When the temp leveled out, I quit.

Active8

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Oct 14, 2003, 8:09:34 AM10/14/03
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On 14 Oct 2003 01:38:45 -0700, JeffM, said...

> Acetone worked great for me. Higher than a kite the 1st time.

maybe acetone was what i used after working like a bitch. yeah, the
smell. but that blue stuff was stuck on pretty good. a had big plane
areas.


>
> I hammered a bead-thermocouple as flat as I could
> and stuck it under the FR4.
> When the temp leveled out, I quit.
>

that'll work.

brs,
mike

Alan

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Oct 18, 2003, 1:46:43 PM10/18/03
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Active8 <mTHISREMO...@earthlink.net.invalid> wrote in message news:<MPG.19f5b197f...@news.east.earthlink.net>...

Try Jetprint photo graphic image paper. Look that up along with PCB
toner transfer on google and you'll find a guide for doing it. It's
$10 for a 20 pack so 50 cents a sheet.

BUT, I have found a much easier way with this paper. Before I had
to do as it said, soak overnight and use a toothbrush to get the extra
paper surface off etc, lots of extra work and a PITA.

Instead, print the circuit, then clear the circuit and put a small
dot somewhere so the blank board will print. Then run the paper back
through the laser printer 2 or 3 more times. The extra fusing makes
the paper surface not stick. I now print, fuse twice more, go iron.
Then run warm then cold water over the paper, and have water running
under the paper as I peel. Peels nearly perfectly now, no overnight
soaking or tedious picking at the extra paper left on the board. Have
my boards in the etch 5 minutes after printing, with only a few
sharpie touch up spots if any at all, and mostly because I get rushed
to see the board and iron a little too short a time. Much better than
before and no need for the more expensive 'right' papers. Sharp
traces, I've done SMT and TSOP parts with this with excellent results.

Older original thread but had to share, the results are very good
and so much faster and easier than before with the same cheap paper.
Have some pics up on the seattlerobotics group file section on Yahoo
but I'll try and put some up on general webspace and post a link soon.
Try it you'll like it, I will never order the commercial papers the
cheap stuff from Staples etc works too well with this to ever bother.

Alan

Active8

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Oct 18, 2003, 7:29:45 PM10/18/03
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On 18 Oct 2003 10:46:43 -0700, Alan said,

> Try Jetprint photo graphic image paper. Look that up along with PCB
> toner transfer on google and you'll find a guide for doing it. It's
> $10 for a 20 pack so 50 cents a sheet.

i saved an article i found 2 wks ago:

Easy Printed Circuit Board Fabrication
Using Laser Printer Toner Transfer
(C) Copyright 2000, by Thomas P. Gootee

is that what you're referring to?

tnx for the tip.

brs,
mike

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