Art of Electronics, 3rd edition, free 109-page chapter

[Winfield Hill]

AoE III has been at the printer for several weeks, getting signatures printed
for a first-printing run of 15,000 books. It's scheduled to be finished in a
few weeks, on March 20th.

In the meantime, here's a free sample chapter, courtesy of our publisher. It's
Chapter Nine, Voltage Regulation and Power Conversion.

The chapter is pretty detailed, and hopefully will have something in it that's
interesting and useful, even to experienced engineers. You'll recognize bits
from the 2nd edition, but it has basically been re-written. It's 109 pages
long, and filled with lots of figures, graphs, tables, photo montages, and some
formulas. The file includes the book's detailed Table of Contents at the
beginning.

Here and there you'll find references with an x in them, like 9x.7, which refers
to section 7 in Chapter 9x. In a few years we'll be coming out with a companion
volume, The x-Chapters, which will have more advanced material. Chapter 9x is
already partly finished.

Here's a dropbox link. You can share the link, and the file as well.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/r8gu22ficfac3pz/AoE-III_ch-9_109pgs.pdf?dl=0

Let me know if the link doesn't work, etc. Enjoy. :-)


--
Thanks,
- Win

[Klaus Kragelund]

Congratulations on the release of the new book. I ordered a copy a couple of weeks ago and is eagerly awaiting my cope (I have the old version too)

About the chapter, I don't see anything about digital control of SMPS, but perhaps I missed it

Cheers

Klaus

[Jim Thompson]

On 4 Mar 2015 15:26:34 -0800, Winfield Hill <hi...@rowland.harvard.edu>
wrote:

I like the heatsink symbol ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

[Dave Platt]

In article <md84b...@drn.newsguy.com>,

Winfield Hill <hi...@rowland.harvard.edu> wrote:

> The file includes the book's detailed Table of Contents at the
>beginning.

Guaranteed to make us drool, slaver, pine, line up at the ordering
gates, and haunt our mailboxes :-)

Thanks very much indeed (both for this early look at one chapter, and
at bringing this work to fruition)!

[John Larkin]

Stop the presses!


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

[Tim Williams]

Beautiful!

Except for one thing... why'd you have to use the "dumb" MOSFET
symbols? :( Whose vote was that?

Tim

--
Seven Transistor Labs
Electrical Engineering Consultation
Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com

"Winfield Hill" <hi...@rowland.harvard.edu> wrote in message
news:md84b...@drn.newsguy.com...

[Ecnerwal]

In article <md84b...@drn.newsguy.com>,
Winfield Hill <hi...@rowland.harvard.edu> wrote:

> Let me know if the link doesn't work, etc. Enjoy. :-)

page 629, Section 9.5.1, first line, "neutral" is supposed to be
"ground" and is noted correctly at the bottom of the page, but the
miscue in the first line might confuse the uninitiated.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Please don't feed the trolls. Killfile and ignore them so they will go away.

[Martin Riddle]

On Wed, 04 Mar 2015 20:47:34 -0500, Ecnerwal
<MyName...@ReplaceWithMyVices.Com.invalid> wrote:

>In article <md84b...@drn.newsguy.com>,
> Winfield Hill <hi...@rowland.harvard.edu> wrote:
>> Let me know if the link doesn't work, etc. Enjoy. :-)
>
>page 629, Section 9.5.1, first line, "neutral" is supposed to be
>"ground" and is noted correctly at the bottom of the page, but the
>miscue in the first line might confuse the uninitiated.

Also, Blue and brown are commonly used for Neutral and hot.

Cheers

[Ecnerwal]

In article <qpdffape2heo5cek8...@4ax.com>,

_That_ is in note 39 at the bottom of that column.

[Winfield Hill]

Ecnerwal wrote...
>
> Martin Riddle <marti...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> Ecnerwal wrote:

>>> Winfield Hill wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Let me know if the link doesn't work, etc. Enjoy. :-)
>>>
>>> page 629, Section 9.5.1, first line, "neutral" is supposed to
>>> be "ground" and is noted correctly at the bottom of the page,
>>> but the miscue in the first line might confuse the uninitiated.
>>
>> Also, Blue and brown are commonly used for Neutral and hot.
>

>_That_ is in note 39 at the bottom of that column.

Good, I'll start taking notes.


--
Thanks,
- Win

[Martin Riddle]

On 4 Mar 2015 18:45:35 -0800, Winfield Hill <hi...@rowland.harvard.edu>
wrote:

Overall I find it very readable, I have preordered the book so I am
looking forward to see whats new.

Cheers

[Tom Miller]

"Tim Williams" <tiw...@seventransistorlabs.com> wrote in message
news:md881i$irb$1...@dont-email.me...

> Beautiful!
>
> Except for one thing... why'd you have to use the "dumb" MOSFET
> symbols? :( Whose vote was that?
>
> Tim
>
> --
> Seven Transistor Labs
> Electrical Engineering Consultation
> Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com

Yes, but the neat heat sink symbol makes up for it. :)

tm

[mrob...@att.net]

Winfield Hill <hi...@rowland.harvard.edu> wrote:
> It's 109 pages long, and filled with lots of figures, graphs, tables,
> photo montages, and some formulas.

Maybe you've talked about it elsewhere, but I'm a bit curious as to the
process. Did you start with TeX (or some other markup language), a
commercial WYSIWYG word processor, or the old-fashioned way with
Selectrics and red pens?

> Here and there you'll find references with an x in them, like 9x.7,
> which refers to section 7 in Chapter 9x. In a few years we'll be
> coming out with a companion volume, The x-Chapters, which will have
> more advanced material.

I wondered when downloadable content was going to make the jump from
vidyagames to books.

> https://www.dropbox.com/s/r8gu22ficfac3pz/AoE-III_ch-9_109pgs.pdf?dl=0

Pictures have gotten cheaper since 1989. Apparently so have footnotes.
:)

The money quote here is probably "This is like getting rid of a cow pie
by stomping on it", although "Dude, this is a league game" is a good
contender.

Cy appears in fig. 9.74 with no discussion, but it does get talked about
later, in the discussion around fig 9.83.

C-Zn and NiCd don't exist anymore. I'm pretty sure I know the reasons,
but it's interesting to live in the future.

The review section at the end of the chapter is new. It looks like the
"good circuits" and "bad circuits" sections have gone away.

> Enjoy. :-)

Thanks for posting it!

Matt Roberds

[Don Kuenz]

Tim Williams <tiw...@seventransistorlabs.com> wrote:
> Beautiful!
>
> Except for one thing... why'd you have to use the "dumb" MOSFET
> symbols? :( Whose vote was that?

The cap in front of the regulator shown in Figure 9.25 is also noted.
It doubles as a Circuit Cellar challenge clue for those in need. :)

--
,-. GIVE MORE expect less LOVE MORE
\_/ argue less LISTEN MORE talk less
{|||)< Don Kuenz LAUGH MORE complain less DREAM MORE
/ \ doubt less HOPE MORE fear less
`-' BREATHE MORE whine less

[Kevin McMurtrie]

In article <md84b...@drn.newsguy.com>,
Winfield Hill <hi...@rowland.harvard.edu> wrote:

Thanks for the sample. Maybe I'll update my 2nd edition.

I found a typo by dumb luck: Page 646, Figure 9.65, Vout label.

--
I will not see posts from astraweb, theremailer, dizum, or google
because they host Usenet flooders.

[Tom Del Rosso]

Winfield Hill wrote:
>
> Here and there you'll find references with an x in them, like 9x.7,
> which refers to section 7 in Chapter 9x. In a few years we'll be
> coming out with a companion volume, The x-Chapters, which will have
> more advanced material. Chapter 9x is already partly finished.

Hopefully there will be an x-chapter on magnetics. You've made some posts
here that should be in it.

[Jack]

Winfield Hill <hi...@rowland.harvard.edu> wrote:

> Here's a dropbox link. You can share the link, and the file as well.
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/r8gu22ficfac3pz/AoE-III_ch-9_109pgs.pdf?dl=0
>
> Let me know if the link doesn't work, etc. Enjoy. :-)

well thank you.
I already preodered the book ;)

Bye Jack
--
Yoda of Borg am I! Assimilated shall you be! Futile resistance is, hmm?

[Winfield Hill]

Tom Del Rosso wrote...

Thanks, yes, that'll be in Chapter 1x, properties of passive parts.
Dunno how much will make it, but yes it's important.


--
Thanks,
- Win

[Winfield Hill]

Kevin McMurtrie wrote...

>
> I found a typo by dumb luck: Page 646, Figure 9.65, Vout label.

I'm looking at Vout, what's wrong with that? Oops, 3.3V, 5A.
Good catch. We'll get these things fixed in the 2nd printing.


--
Thanks,
- Win

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (5 Mar 2015 05:01:39 -0800) it happened Winfield Hill
<hi...@rowland.harvard.edu> wrote in <md9k3...@drn.newsguy.com>:

I ws looking for the word 'soldering',
and all I found was:
Figure 9.46. An extended selection of power packages, shown here and in Figure 9.47. The leadless packages in the bottom row require
"reflow" solder techniques (trade in your soldering iron and wire solder for an oven and solder-paste dispenser!).

Will there be a chapter on what end of that thing to hold,
and what sort of thing to melt with it?

I mean, come on, it all starts and ends with that.

[Winfield Hill]

Jan Panteltje wrote...
>
> I was looking for the word 'soldering', and all I found was:

> Figure 9.46. An extended selection of power packages, shown
> here and in Figure 9.47. The leadless packages in the bottom
> row require "reflow" solder techniques (trade in your
> soldering iron and wire solder for an oven and solder-paste
> dispenser!).
>
> Will there be a chapter on what end of that thing to
> hold, and what sort of thing to melt with it?
>
> I mean, come on, it all starts and ends with that.

Yes, indeed. Soldering would belong in our Electronic
Construction Techniques chapter (chapter 12 in AoE II).

AoE-III has much more material than AoE-II, thanks to
larger pages, wider columns, a smaller font, editing
to fit most figures into a single column, etc., but
with the huge amount of mostly new material, we were
forced to leave out many excellent chapters from the
2nd edition. That's one reason why we suggest that
folks keep their 2nd edition (or go buy a used one).


--
Thanks,
- Win

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 4 Mar 2015 18:41:41 -0600, "Tim Williams"
<tiw...@seventransistorlabs.com> wrote:

>Beautiful!
>
>Except for one thing... why'd you have to use the "dumb" MOSFET
>symbols? :( Whose vote was that?
>
>Tim

I'd vote for that! Except that the gate lead should hit the middle of
the gate, not the end.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/Circuits/Power/Boost.jpg

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/Circuits/Power/DC_DC2.jpg

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/Circuits/Power/Pdiss_Computer.JPG

[John Larkin]

On Thu, 5 Mar 2015 04:15:33 +0000 (UTC), Don Kuenz
<gar...@crcomp.net> wrote:

>
>Tim Williams <tiw...@seventransistorlabs.com> wrote:
>> Beautiful!
>>
>> Except for one thing... why'd you have to use the "dumb" MOSFET
>> symbols? :( Whose vote was that?
>
>The cap in front of the regulator shown in Figure 9.25 is also noted.
>It doubles as a Circuit Cellar challenge clue for those in need. :)

The 16 volt cap, and the heatsink, are both good ideas. Signal tends
to make "soft" transformers, so the unreg voltage could be high.

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Thu, 05 Mar 2015 10:37:26 -0800) it happened John Larkin
<jla...@highlandtechnology.com> wrote in
<1h8hfa5dsld5oakd9...@4ax.com>:

>>The cap in front of the regulator shown in Figure 9.25 is also noted.
>>It doubles as a Circuit Cellar challenge clue for those in need. :)

mm, for that big an electrolytic... wires may be long, bad ESR?,
there should also be a 100 nF decoupling close to the LM317.
Says the datasheet.

[Chris Jones]

Thanks for the link, and for both previous editions of the book from
which I have learnt a lot.

In your sections on Safe Operating Area on pages 627 and 702 and also in
the discussion of high voltage regulators on page 696, it might have
been worth mentioning that nowadays not all MOSFETs can be run up to
their power rating at high VDS. The phenomenon in newer MOSFETs intended
for switching operation, wherin at lowish current densities the drain
current has a positive tempco for a given VGS due to the negative tempco
of Vth dominating, can result in hotspots and destruction within the
power rating and below the maximum VDS and ID ratings. Therefore
nowadays when high voltage linear operation is required, it is
worthwhile looking for a MOSFET with a DC SOA graph. Infineon, irf and
others have some application notes about this, e.g.:
http://www.irf.com/technical-info/appnotes/an-1155.pdf

Chris

[Tom Del Rosso]

I don't understand how people get away with replacing motherboard caps with
new ones that are too big in diameter, so they just leave the leads long.

[DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno]

Performing good soldering on a 16 layer PCB is not easy either.

And all ther personal time spent.

It is like a watch. It fails... do you take it to the shop? Hell no,
you go buy a new one.

How much is your personal time worth that you have to waste it sitting
with a broken motherboard and soldering iron? What a sad life you have
that you would think that task to be constructive.

[k...@attt.bizz]

What's the SRF of the caps they're replacing? Probably not very high
(leads don't matter?).

[George Herold]

That's Great! I'm certainly looking forward to my copy.
It's cool my old editions still have value...
not that I'm selling.

George H.

[Winfield Hill]

Chris Jones wrote...

>
> In your sections on Safe Operating Area on pages 627 and 702 and also
> in the discussion of high voltage regulators on page 696, it might have
> been worth mentioning that nowadays not all MOSFETs can be run up to
> their power rating at high VDS. The phenomenon in newer MOSFETs
> intended for switching operation, wherin at lowish current densities
> the drain current has a positive tempco for a given VGS due to the
> negative tempco of Vth dominating, can result in hotspots and
> destruction within the power rating and below the maximum VDS and
> ID ratings. Therefore nowadays when high voltage linear operation
> is required, it is worthwhile looking for a MOSFET with a DC SOA
> graph. Infineon, irf and others have some application notes about
> this, e.g.: http://www.irf.com/technical-info/appnotes/an-1155.pdf

Thanks, Chris. I'm been aware of how much better older MOSFET
versions are than newer ones for linear power issues - largely
due to larger die area, higher thermal mass, and lower thermal
resistance. But I wasn't so much aware of the SOA problems
developing in the last 15 years with newer revisions of older
MOSFETs, and with new parts. Nor the body of literature that's
sprung up dealing with this issue. Well, this is all material
for Chapters 3x and 9x, but we'll say something in Chapter 9.


--
Thanks,
- Win

[Winfield Hill]

k...@attt.bizz wrote...

>
> "Tom Del Rosso" wrote:
>
>> I don't understand how people get away with replacing
>> motherboard caps with new ones that are too big in
>> diameter, so they just leave the leads long.
>
> What's the SRF of the caps they're replacing? Probably
> not very high (leads don't matter?).

My experience is that as I go looking for production (or
"replacement") caps, I consistently find smaller physical
sizes (not larger) for the same cap and voltage rating.


--
Thanks,
- Win

[k...@attt.bizz]

On 6 Mar 2015 18:39:06 -0800, Winfield Hill <hi...@rowland.harvard.edu>
wrote:

Perhaps, but there is nothing magic about (most of) the values.

[Tom Del Rosso]

In the case of motherboards the reason they go bad is sometimes because the
voltage rating was too low.

[Tom Del Rosso]

Wouldn't longer leads give it a higher inductance and hence change the SRF?
Isn't that just another way of saying that the leads should be short? But
it seems to work, maybe because there are more caps than necessary. Maybe
there are SMT caps that take care of the higher frequencies. But I've never
seen the book or app note that says it's ok to have bypass caps with long
leads.

[Klaus Kragelund]

A motherboard has a dedicated plane for VCC and GND. The high frequency impedance of the plane is excellent and the lower SRF of the cap is not important

Cheers

Klaus

[Tim Williams]

"Tom Del Rosso" <td...@verizon.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:mdhti4$efd$1...@dont-email.me...

> Wouldn't longer leads give it a higher inductance and hence change the
> SRF? Isn't that just another way of saying that the leads should be
> short? But it seems to work, maybe because there are more caps than
> necessary. Maybe there are SMT caps that take care of the higher
> frequencies. But I've never seen the book or app note that says it's ok
> to have bypass caps with long
> leads.

As long as we're talking about electrolytics, their ESR is too high for
the value to resonate with such small inductances.

The cutoff is: L < ESR^2 * C. For typical values of, say, 50mohm and
1000uF, figure 2.5uH being a problem. That's two meters of cable!

Aluminum polymers, however, do have this problem -- essentially being the
low voltage equivalent to film capacitors, in terms of ESR, density, etc.

[rickman]

Or maybe the SRF just isn't an issue in this case?

--

Rick

[amdx]

On 3/6/2015 9:29 AM, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno wrote:
> On Fri, 06 Mar 2015 09:06:45 -0500, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
>
>> Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>> On a sunny day (Thu, 05 Mar 2015 10:37:26 -0800) it happened John
>>> Larkin <jla...@highlandtechnology.com> wrote in
>>> <1h8hfa5dsld5oakd9...@4ax.com>:
>>>
>>>>> The cap in front of the regulator shown in Figure 9.25 is also
>>>>> noted. It doubles as a Circuit Cellar challenge clue for those in
>>>>> need. :)
>>>
>>>
>>> mm, for that big an electrolytic... wires may be long, bad ESR?, there
>>> should also be a 100 nF decoupling close to the LM317. Says the
>>> datasheet.
>>
>> I don't understand how people get away with replacing motherboard caps
>> with new ones that are too big in diameter, so they just leave the leads
>> long.
>
> Performing good soldering on a 16 layer PCB is not easy either.
>

> And all there personal time spent.

>
> It is like a watch. It fails... do you take it to the shop? Hell no,
> you go buy a new one.
>
> How much is your personal time worth that you have to waste it sitting
> with a broken motherboard and soldering iron? What a sad life you have
> that you would think that task to be constructive.
>

Color me sad.
6 or 7 years ago I replaced 8 or 10 caps on a computer I had. I did it
after supper and before bed, so it was less than four hours total. It
lasted a few more years before a HD problem drove me to build a new
computer. Oh that's probably just more evidence of my sadness. :-)
I got the caps from badcaps.net.
He has a page about bad caps and reasons FWIW.
> http://www.badcaps.net/pages.php?vid=4

Mikek


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
http://www.avast.com

[DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno]

My $1200 (2200 after the loan) Pioneer Laser Disc player was just under
their top of the line model, and lasted me 18 years before it puked.

I am willing to bet that the full optical bench style laser set-up and HV
supply only needs to have those EL caps in the front end of that HV supply
replaced, and maybe some on the main board.

THAT item would be worth it.

ALL of my old PCs are graveyard devices, and ANY time one breaks, if it
is more than a couple years old, a new one is usually easier, and far
better on the brain in the end.

I even have an i5 where it has startup issues, and I have yet to get
back to that fix it job but have bought a few computers and even touch
screens since.

One day, that i5 ITX box WILL get revived, because THAT machine is worth
it.

A shitbox "Celeron" level box, especially a store bought, non-user built
machine is hardly worth it. They are years old right on the store shelf.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Sun, 8 Mar 2015 12:32:03 -0400, "Tom Del Rosso"

The point is that the SRF of the cap is (likely) low enough that any
extra leads are meaningless.

[amdx]

Just my opinion, if you can't afford to pay cash for a $1200 Pioneer
Laser Disc player, you shouldn't have a Pioneer Laser Disc player.
Oh, never mind, it was 18 years ago, I'm sure you're much wiser now.
Mikek

[DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno]

On Sun, 08 Mar 2015 21:43:44 -0500, amdx wrote:

> Just my opinion, if you can't afford to pay cash for a $1200 Pioneer
> Laser Disc player, you shouldn't have a Pioneer Laser Disc player.
> Oh, never mind, it was 18 years ago, I'm sure you're much wiser now.
> Mikek

Just so you know, that was my first loan ever made and it was to
establish credit with.

It was a 27% APR ITT loan.

And no... back then... that much cash was a lot and the loan was easy
to pay. With VCRs at $400 each and tapes which degrade, I thought my
Laser Disc decision was a good one. My eyes and fellow movie watchers
sure liked it better.

More recently, I have made $1500 cash purchases for frivilous luxury
items, and usually do for most of my gadgetry family now.

So, just my opinion, if all you can do to rail against my post is make a
stupid remark about cash purchases, when the buying power of the dollar
was greater then, but the number of dollars was less, you ain't puttin' up
much of an argument about what is or is not worth fixing after two decades
of use.

[Winfield Hill]

DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno wrote...

If it's simply new caps that can do the job, it may well
be worth the time. A new mobo often forces a new install
of Windows and all your programs. That's a serious pain.


--
Thanks,
- Win

[amdx]

What I saw is you calling everyone that has ever repaired a computer
as having a sad life (a little over the top huh) acting like money is no
object (cause your rich and your time is worth way more than a the cost
of a computer). And then I read you borrowed $1200 for a Laser Player,
at 27% yet.
When I first established credit (early 80's) I borrowed $1000, but
used money in the bank as collateral for the loan. I don't recall the
rate now, but it was low.
Enjoy, Mikek

[DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno]

On Mon, 09 Mar 2015 08:55:48 -0500, amdx wrote:

> What I saw is you calling everyone that has ever repaired a computer
> as having a sad life

No. I called a bad motherboard a bad choice for something worth
spending personal time on repairing. Big difference.

The sad life comes from the sad choices.

Fashion, smoking, lots of things to make bad choices on.

That is why we have a nation half full of jackass jocks with their ball
caps with the tags still on, and lilly with gym shoes without a scuff on
them, and the pant down past the asscrack crowd.

If I am going to spend my personal time on electronics, it would be a
project to create a device, not just fix one.

[DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno]

On Mon, 09 Mar 2015 08:55:48 -0500, amdx wrote:

> (a little over the top huh) acting like money is no object (cause your
> rich and your time is worth way more than a the cost of a computer).

No I am not rich. But a cheap sub 100 dolar mobo is a lame thing to
fix. MAYBE if it gets up around $200 or more... maybe then.

>And
> then I read you borrowed $1200 for a Laser Player, at 27% yet.

Yeah, that's what a kid fresh out of high school does to establish
credit, idiot.

High APR loans were the norm then for first time folks, and still are in
places like "rent to own" stores, but it is those same places young folks
get their credit lines started in.

You and your $1000 loan is a lame example because you backed it 100%
with a bank balance as collateral.

That is an example of how it was NOT typically done by folks with less,
so it is YOU who likely was more "rich" than I at the time.

[amdx]

On 3/9/2015 10:48 AM, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno wrote:
> On Mon, 09 Mar 2015 08:55:48 -0500, amdx wrote:
>
>> What I saw is you calling everyone that has ever repaired a computer
>> as having a sad life
>
> No. I called a bad motherboard a bad choice for something worth
> spending personal time on repairing. Big difference.
>
> The sad life comes from the sad choices.
>
> Fashion, smoking, lots of things to make bad choices on.

Never smoked, and think it's stupid to have your pants hanging down.
We have agreement.

>
> That is why we have a nation half full of jackass jocks with their ball
> caps with the tags still on,

You shouldn't be knocking Minnie Pearl.

> If I am going to spend my personal time on electronics, it would be a
> project to create a device, not just fix one.
>

Don't forget propensity for arguing on Usenet.

[amdx]

On 3/9/2015 10:53 AM, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno wrote:
> On Mon, 09 Mar 2015 08:55:48 -0500, amdx wrote:
>
>> (a little over the top huh) acting like money is no object (cause your
>> rich and your time is worth way more than a the cost of a computer).
>
> No I am not rich. But a cheap sub 100 dolar mobo is a lame thing to
> fix. MAYBE if it gets up around $200 or more... maybe then.
>
>> And
>> then I read you borrowed $1200 for a Laser Player, at 27% yet.
>
> Yeah, that's what a kid fresh out of high school does to establish
> credit, idiot.
>
> High APR loans were the norm then for first time folks, and still are in
> places like "rent to own" stores, but it is those same places young folks
> get their credit lines started in.

Rent to own is just plain stupid. Go without, save your money for a
year, then never go into debt again (House exception). When I did VCR
repair, I'd get Rent-to-own VCR's for warranty repair, the receipts
showed people paying just over $1,000 for a $239 VCR.

They say that over half the population can't round up $1,000. That is sad.
http://money.cnn.com/2011/08/10/pf/emergency_fund/
A four years dated, but we are still in the Obama economy, I don;t think
it has got any better.

> You and your $1000 loan is a lame example because you backed it 100%
> with a bank balance as collateral.
>

But it showed up on my credit rating as a paid off loan, it didn't say
anything about the collateral. I will admit though 30 years later I
don't know what my credit score would be, all my normal bills are paid
on time, but I haven't borrowed any money for at least 23 years, other
than using a credit card. Recently Wells Fargo had a deal to get a free
credit score, I signed up and when I called to get it, they said I'd
need to do it by mail, I'm sure there wasn't enough data for them to
work with.

> That is an example of how it was NOT typically done by folks with less,
> so it is YOU who likely was more "rich" than I at the time.

Far from rich, but we lived on less than we earned, that has great
rewards if you do it for 30 years.

[k...@zzz.com]

I've borrowed money for less than that but at 0% interest. Paying
>80% interest is absurd. Perhaps DimBulb has to use payday lenders or
the Italian guy with the crooked nose.

[Tom Del Rosso]

Winfield Hill wrote:
>
> If it's simply new caps that can do the job, it may well
> be worth the time. A new mobo often forces a new install
> of Windows and all your programs. That's a serious pain.

And a new CPU (3-4 times as much as the mobo) and memory (almost as much as
the mobo).

And if it's a Dell the case won't fit a standard mobo, so you need a whole
system and OS.

I just wish they'd make hotter irons now that solder has a higher melting
point. That makes no sense. It takes 2 irons heating the hole from both
sides.

[k...@zzz.com]

Yes, that's the best way to build credit though many live perfectly
well under the radar of the reporting agencies.

If you have a credit card, you will have a FICO score. If you have
had any credit in the past 7 years you will have a record in the
reporting companies and therefore a score. AIUI, 60% of the score is
the ratio of the balance on all cards (the monthly usage counts as a
"balance") divided by the total credit lines. Something like 30% is
your payment history.

We just got a letter that my AmEx interest rate was *increased* to
12.99% because, among other reasons given, my FICO score was 839 out
of 850. I was thinking of calling to bitch but I've never had a
balance on the card and I have no idea what it was before. ;-)

>
>> That is an example of how it was NOT typically done by folks with less,
>> so it is YOU who likely was more "rich" than I at the time.
>
> Far from rich, but we lived on less than we earned, that has great
>rewards if you do it for 30 years.

That's the bottom line.

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

it is amazing that electrics stores etc. manage to sell people loans at ~27%
when the general interest rate is near zero at the moment

-Lasse

[k...@zzz.com]

Have you checked credit card interest rates lately? 29% isn't
unusual, yet people have thousands of dollars racked up on them.

[John Miles, KE5FX]

On Monday, March 9, 2015 at 3:33:39 PM UTC-7, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
> I just wish they'd make hotter irons now that solder has a higher melting
> point. That makes no sense. It takes 2 irons heating the hole from both
> sides.

For through-hole desoldering, look for a Hakko 808. They're awesome.

-- john, KE5FX

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

and that is at a time where here the national bank has a negative rate -0.75%
and the latest auction on a 1 year loan in your house ended at 0.11%

wonder what the rate would be if the rates were more "normal"

-Lasse

[k...@zzz.com]

On Mon, 9 Mar 2015 16:44:11 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen

Probably not much more. "What the market will bear", and all that.

[Tom Miller]

"Tom Del Rosso" <td...@verizon.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:mdl72h$j8r$1...@dont-email.me...

You need a Metcal.

[DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno]

On Mon, 09 Mar 2015 18:32:18 -0400, Tom Del Rosso wrote:

> I just wish they'd make hotter irons now that solder has a higher
> melting point. That makes no sense. It takes 2 irons heating the hole
> from both sides.

There is a trick.

You pre-heat the mobo, similar to ramping up on the reflow oven.

So, you take a heat gun (not full blast), and you preheat the board.

you can also use an oven.

The idea is that your pre-heated mobo is no longer the HUGE heat sink
that it was, and the offset being smaller, it is easy to make a solder
joint.

It ain't the tip temp, it is the sinking capacity of the solder joint
location.

[rickman]

On 3/9/2015 7:44 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> Den tirsdag den 10. marts 2015 kl. 00.20.03 UTC+1 skrev k...@zzz.com:
>> On Mon, 9 Mar 2015 15:44:16 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
>>>

>>> it is amazing that electrics stores etc. manage to sell people loans at ~27%
>>> when the general interest rate is near zero at the moment
>>
>> Have you checked credit card interest rates lately? 29% isn't
>> unusual, yet people have thousands of dollars racked up on them.
>
> and that is at a time where here the national bank has a negative rate -0.75%
> and the latest auction on a 1 year loan in your house ended at 0.11%
>
> wonder what the rate would be if the rates were more "normal"

29% *is* unusual if you have decent credit. But credit card rates are
*much* higher than any collateralized credit.

--

Rick

[k...@zzz.com]

I have a 120W iron for the Weller that works pretty well, too. The
Weller WX2 beats the hell out of Metcals.

[Winfield Hill]

k...@zzz.com wrote...

Dunno, we have both, best for different tasks. Weller
is adjustable, very useful, but Metcal sticks the tip's
temperature better, at its specified fixed value.

Here's a desoldering part-removal tip: add Indium solder.
Very low melting point lets you quickly scavenge all the
solder from the joint, remove the part, and clear the hole.
We get ours from Zephyrtronics. Watch their great video.


--
Thanks,
- Win

[k...@zzz.com]

On 10 Mar 2015 17:33:25 -0700, Winfield Hill

<hi...@rowland.harvard.edu> wrote:

>k...@zzz.com wrote...
>>
>>On Mon, 9 Mar 2015 19:19:56 -0400, "Tom Miller"
>><tmille...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Tom Del Rosso" <td...@verizon.net.invalid> wrote in message
>>>news:mdl72h$j8r$1...@dont-email.me...
>>>>
>>>> Winfield Hill wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> If it's simply new caps that can do the job, it may well
>>>>> be worth the time. A new mobo often forces a new install
>>>>> of Windows and all your programs. That's a serious pain.
>>>>
>>>> And a new CPU (3-4 times as much as the mobo) and memory (almost as much
>>>> as the mobo).
>>>>
>>>> And if it's a Dell the case won't fit a standard mobo, so you need a whole
>>>> system and OS.
>>>>
>>>> I just wish they'd make hotter irons now that solder has a higher melting
>>>> point. That makes no sense. It takes 2 irons heating the hole from both
>>>> sides.
>>>>
>>> You need a Metcal.
>>>
>> I have a 120W iron for the Weller that works pretty well,
>> too. The Weller WX2 beats the hell out of Metcals.
>
> Dunno, we have both, best for different tasks. Weller
> is adjustable, very useful, but Metcal sticks the tip's
> temperature better, at its specified fixed value.

I gave the Metcal away the first time I used the WX2. The pencils and
tweezers are *much* better and the tips are easier and faster to
change.

> Here's a desoldering part-removal tip: add Indium solder.
> Very low melting point lets you quickly scavenge all the
> solder from the joint, remove the part, and clear the hole.
> We get ours from Zephyrtronics. Watch their great video.

Nice! I will keep that in mind. Thank you.