schematics and PCB design software. what's best?
Fernando Peral Pérez
i'm using OrCAD for mid-low complexity design. I'm thinking of changing.
What alternatives there are? what are the most used form professional
development? Some free quality software?
thanks
D from BC
I won't go any lower than MS-Paint :)
D from BC
Joerg
I switched from OrCad a few years ago. Tried the free demo version from
this company, liked it and bought a license:
http://www.cadsoftusa.com/
Also, the manager for their US office (Ed) is fluent in Spanish as far
as I know, in case that's easier. There is also a short manual for an
older version in Spanish on the download area, the new version isn't
much different.
--
Regards, Joerg
JeffM
>>i'm using OrCAD[...]I'm thinking of changing.
>>
Joerg wrote:
>cadsoftusa.com
>
Cadsoft used to be in the CAD business.
They are now also in the DRM business.
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:rKVDtJhW8hgJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_rights_management+Copyrights+Copyrights+Copyrights+restrict-the-use-*-*-*-*-*
Before re-using anyone else's library,
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.arch.embedded/browse_frm/thread/f794e82d26b59e18/d7cf4149edb93ac7?q=*-*-website+reuse+paying.*+*-I-will-switch+cracked-*+*.would.not.help.*+zzz+after-*-*-version-*+copied+*.*.unlock.*.designs+*-*-*-*-exchange-*-*-*-*-third-party+reused+qq+*-*-single-bit-*-*-*-*+useless+*-*-*-projects-could-no-longer-be-opened
find out how to un-DRM the documents that are created with it.
>>Some free quality software?
>>
Investigate gEDA and KiCAD.
Each was created by engineers "scratching an itch".
Joerg
> Fernando Peral Pérez wrote:
>
>>>i'm using OrCAD[...]I'm thinking of changing.
>>>
>
> Joerg wrote:
>
>>cadsoftusa.com
>>
>
> Cadsoft used to be in the CAD business.
> They are now also in the DRM business.
> http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:rKVDtJhW8hgJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_rights_management+Copyrights+Copyrights+Copyrights+restrict-the-use-*-*-*-*-*
>
> Before re-using anyone else's library,
> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.arch.embedded/browse_frm/thread/f794e82d26b59e18/d7cf4149edb93ac7?q=*-*-website+reuse+paying.*+*-I-will-switch+cracked-*+*.would.not.help.*+zzz+after-*-*-version-*+copied+*.*.unlock.*.designs+*-*-*-*-exchange-*-*-*-*-third-party+reused+qq+*-*-single-bit-*-*-*-*+useless+*-*-*-projects-could-no-longer-be-opened
> find out how to un-DRM the documents that are created with it.
>
That's about schematics generated with a cracked copy. Not an issue for
me since I never copy parts of schematics from anywhere. Copying stuff
and then using it for commercial purposes is, well, not quite within my
understanding of ethics and etiquette.
This has generated some noise among Cadsoft users since it does
inconvenience hobby users. But ok, they've got to do something against
hackers ripping them off. I doubt that their software engineers are
working for free. Unlike many other CAD packages Eagle does not require
those dreaded dongles. That is a serious plus in my eyes.
BTW libraries are another serious upside for Eagle. Other comnpanies
want serious Dollars for a new library. Cadsoft lets you download it for
free. It's give and take, with most libraries contributed by users.
Which also means you must take them with a grain of salt and thoroughly
check things like footprints before using a part from a foreign library.
I adopted the habit of creating my own parts.
Eagle is also remarkably inexpensive compared to products such as OrCad.
That was one serious motivator for me to switch. But the main motivator
was the support which is absolutely stellar.
>
>>>Some free quality software?
>>>
>
> Investigate gEDA and KiCAD.
> Each was created by engineers "scratching an itch".
>
My experience with open source software is, to put it mildly, mixed. I
haven't tried these two yet but I am not going to switch again. Support
is also a dicey topic when it comes to open source products.
MooseFET
[.....]
> My experience with open source software is, to put it mildly, mixed. I
> haven't tried these two yet but I am not going to switch again. Support
> is also a dicey topic when it comes to open source products.
Orcad: Basically none
gEDA: Basically none
I've learned the old DOS orcad. I may learn gEDA one of these days
but the DOS Orcad still does what I need.
DJ Delorie
This either means (1) you think commercial support is dicey also (I
agree), or (2) you've never asked for help on the gEDA mailing list.
Or both.
For many open source projects, however, if you consider the mailing
list to be support then yes, it's dicey - because you're asking
volunteers to spend their time on your problems, usually without
giving enough back to make it worth their time. However, you can
usually pay for commercial support for open source projects, which is
no worse than commercial support for proprietary software.
Red Hat, for example, has very good support for what is essentially an
open source project. Would you be willing to pay for commercial
support for gEDA? Isn't it nice that you can pay YOUR choice of
contractor, instead of relying on the manufacturer to support it?
Matt
> Some free quality software?
>
> thanks
Eagle from raisonance.
JeffM
>>Cadsoft [is] now also in the DRM business[...]
>>
>>Before re-using anyone else's library,
>>http://groups.google.com/group/comp.arch.embedded/browse_frm/thread/f794e82d26b59e18/d7cf4149edb93ac7?q=*-*-website+reuse+paying.*+*-I-will-switch+cracked-*+*.would.not.help.*+zzz+after-*-*-version-*+copied+*.*.unlock.*.designs+*-*-*-*-exchange-*-*-*-*-third-party+reused+qq+*-*-single-bit-*-*-*-*+useless+*-*-*-projects-could-no-longer-be-opened
>>find out how to un-DRM the documents that are created with it.
>>
>That's about schematics generated with a cracked copy.
>
AS HE IS DOING SOMETHING **in good faith**
that he is about to do something against the rules
then LATER finding that he has been locked out of his work product.
>Not an issue for me
>since I never copy parts of schematics from anywhere.
>
The only way to avoid this nonsense--besides avoiding Cadsoft
entirely.
>Copying stuff and then using it for commercial purposes
>is, well, not quite within my understanding of ethics and etiquette.
>
Library parts?? C'mon.
>This has generated some noise among Cadsoft users
>since it does inconvenience hobby users.
>
One of the big selling points of EAGLE (years back)
was that you could distribute your files
and others could use the demo version to *view* and/or *print* them.
Really great for hobbyists (and the pros who publish projects)
--until Cadsoft shot themselves in the foot.
>But ok, they've got to do something against hackers ripping them off.
>I doubt that their software engineers are working for free.
>
COMPLETELY evades the point.
As usual with DRM, the crackers find ways around the limitations
and the legit, fully-paid customers are the ones who get screwed.
>Unlike many other CAD packages
>Eagle does not require those dreaded dongles.
>That is a serious plus in my eyes.
>
I used to agree
--until they started spitting on their paid customers in other ways.
>BTW libraries are another serious upside for Eagle.
>
I used to agree.
>Other [companies] want serious Dollars for a new library.
>Cadsoft lets you download it for free.
>
...if you want to play Russian Roulette.
>It's give and take, with most libraries contributed by users.
>
Again: How do you know that the library isn't infected?
How do you get assurance BEFORE THE FACT
that you won't be locked out of your documents by using it?
>Which also means you must take them with a grain of salt
>and thoroughly check things like footprints
>before using a part from a foreign library.
>
The *least* of your problems with an EAGLE *.LBR these days.
>I adopted the habit of creating my own parts.
>
...and it is now the ONLY way to *assure* no DRM madness.
>Eagle is also remarkably inexpensive compared to products such as OrCad.
>
Amen.
>That was one serious motivator for me to switch.
>
Amen.
>But the main motivator was the support which is absolutely stellar.
>
If, by "support" you mean **a newsgroup** (2 groups, actually): Yes.
If you mean **A software company that helps fully-paid users
to get past company-induced problems (which they didn't sign up for
when they plunked down their cash)**, I say "Hogwash".
Markus' sad story is testament.
.
.
Fernando Peral Pérez wrote:
>>>>Some free quality software?
>>>>
>>Investigate gEDA and KiCAD.
>>Each was created by engineers [to] "scratching an itch".
>>
>My experience with open source software is, to put it mildly, mixed.
>I haven't tried these two yet but I am not going to switch again.
>
...until Cadsoft pulls its other hand from behind its back
and reveals its next even-more-draconian edict??
ISTM that in-the-know folks are getting tired of all this
Dubious Restrictions Malarkey
and are now willing to consider open source to get away from it.
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:nUmkCqo9xfcJ:www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html+Updated+2007+four.kinds.of.freedom.for.the.users.of.the.software
...and the *Eschew Brokenware* thing is moving beyond individuals:
http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/06/02/2119253&mode=nocomment&threshold=5&simpledesign=1&lowbandwidth=1
.
.
>Support is also a dicey topic when it comes to open source products.
>
When compared to the *old* Cadsoft, I would say "Perhaps".
When compared to the *new* DRM-laden Cadsoft,
which is in the process of becoming like so many other software
companies,
I would say "It's a wash".
I find that with software of all stripes, you end up relying on
volunteers A LOT.
Matt
Whoops, Eagle is not made by Raisonance.
Robert Latest
> Again: How do you know that the library isn't infected?
> How do you get assurance BEFORE THE FACT
> that you won't be locked out of your documents by using it?
By opening the freshly-downloaded library, exporting it as a script and
re-importing it.
It is easy to protect yourself against Eagle's anti-piracy policy, but you
have to know how and when to do it.
I agree, though, that those who experience the bad surprises are exclusively
the legitimate paying customers. I don't think their policy has stopped
anyone from ripping off their product. Who needs to pirate EAGLE anyhow,
seeing that there is a free version for hobbyists and a fine-grained palette
of differently priced options for various levels of professional use? People
who design boards with more than 4 layers or larger than Euro certainly can
afford the ~1000 bucks for a decent CAD package.
> If you mean **A software company that helps fully-paid users
> to get past company-induced problems (which they didn't sign up for
> when they plunked down their cash)**, I say "Hogwash".
> Markus' sad story is testament.
Yes.
robert
MooseFET
> MooseFET <kensm...@rahul.net> writes:
> > Orcad: Basically none
> > gEDA: Basically none
>
> This either means (1) you think commercial support is dicey also (I
> agree),
For Orcad I said "none" not to mean "dicey" but to mean something more
like "none". Orcad got bought out. It was a little after that that
they brought out PCB386. It was on PCB386 that I learned not to
bother calling because they couldn't actually provide any real help.
Once you got past the "Is it plugged in questions?" they had nothing
more to offer.
I was trying to layout a PCB. Because of a bug in PCB386, everytime I
added a trace, the program would remove one at random somewhere else
on the PCB.
[....]
> Red Hat, for example, has very good support for what is essentially an
> open source project. Would you be willing to pay for commercial
> support for gEDA?
Currently the answer is "no". I'm not doing my own PCB layouts. If I
start doing my own layouts again, going with gEDA is the most likely
path.
> Isn't it nice that you can pay YOUR choice of
> contractor, instead of relying on the manufacturer to >support it?
Yes this is a good thing.
Rene Tschaggelar
Altium ? (Protel, DXP and such)
They evelove the package at a rather quick
pace, but more often than not stick to the
second and third-intuitive solution. Meaning
it is workable but the learning curve is
steep and is kept being this way.
Rene
--
Ing.Buero R.Tschaggelar - http://www.ibrtses.com
& commercial newsgroups - http://www.talkto.net
Joerg
> JeffM wrote:
>
>>>Cadsoft [is] now also in the DRM business[...]
>>>
>>>Before re-using anyone else's library,
>>>http://groups.google.com/group/comp.arch.embedded/browse_frm/thread/f794e82d26b59e18/d7cf4149edb93ac7?q=*-*-website+reuse+paying.*+*-I-will-switch+cracked-*+*.would.not.help.*+zzz+after-*-*-version-*+copied+*.*.unlock.*.designs+*-*-*-*-exchange-*-*-*-*-third-party+reused+qq+*-*-single-bit-*-*-*-*+useless+*-*-*-projects-could-no-longer-be-opened
>>>find out how to un-DRM the documents that are created with it.
>>>
>
> Joerg wrote:
>
>>That's about schematics generated with a cracked copy.
>>
>
> *Specifically* it's about the software not warning a **legit** user
> AS HE IS DOING SOMETHING **in good faith**
> that he is about to do something against the rules
> then LATER finding that he has been locked out of his work product.
>
Yes, they should have provided a mechanism that instantly beeps. AFAIK
they now do but couldn't avoid that people have old files containing
hacked stuff that used to work in 3.51 or whatever and now don't in
4.16. That's because this copy protection stuff wasn't implemented in
their older versions.
>
>>Not an issue for me
>>since I never copy parts of schematics from anywhere.
>>
>
> The only way to avoid this nonsense--besides avoiding Cadsoft
> entirely.
>
>
>>Copying stuff and then using it for commercial purposes
>>is, well, not quite within my understanding of ethics and etiquette.
>>
>
> Library parts?? C'mon.
>
I mentioned further below that library parts are freely distributed. In
contrast to many, many other CAD packages where companies use that as a
cash cow (and I consequently do not buy their CAD).
>
>>This has generated some noise among Cadsoft users
>>since it does inconvenience hobby users.
>>
>
> One of the big selling points of EAGLE (years back)
> was that you could distribute your files
> and others could use the demo version to *view* and/or *print* them.
> Really great for hobbyists (and the pros who publish projects)
> --until Cadsoft shot themselves in the foot.
>
Yes, their implementation was rather <censored>.
>
>>But ok, they've got to do something against hackers ripping them off.
>>I doubt that their software engineers are working for free.
>>
>
> COMPLETELY evades the point.
> As usual with DRM, the crackers find ways around the limitations
> and the legit, fully-paid customers are the ones who get screwed.
>
Nope. If you use a hacked version for hobby that's one issue. But if you
use a hacked version, say, as a consultant it'll be only a matter of
time until a big egg flies into your face. That happens the instant a
client wants to open your files on his legal copy. Now that would be
quite an embarrassment, wouldn't it?
Think of it like a bank. A robber manages to pry their money, runs off
into the street and thinks he has it made. Gets into his car and POOF,
indelible ink oozes all over the bills.
>
>>Unlike many other CAD packages
>>Eagle does not require those dreaded dongles.
>>That is a serious plus in my eyes.
>>
>
> I used to agree
> --until they started spitting on their paid customers in other ways.
>
Any more gripes besides this copyright thing? I don't have any, other
than the fact that they don't seem to understand how important a
hierarchical sheet structure is.
>
>>BTW libraries are another serious upside for Eagle.
>>
>
> I used to agree.
>
>
>>Other [companies] want serious Dollars for a new library.
>>Cadsoft lets you download it for free.
>>
>
> ...if you want to play Russian Roulette.
>
>
>>It's give and take, with most libraries contributed by users.
>>
>
> Again: How do you know that the library isn't infected?
> How do you get assurance BEFORE THE FACT
> that you won't be locked out of your documents by using it?
>
AFAIK it's not libraries but schematics that get infected. Also, the
libraries are posted on the Cadsoft server as a bonus service. Even with
the freeware version you are allowed to use them. I never ran into this
copyright issue but I'd assume anything infected just would not load
into my licensed version. I don't think I can be locked out of my own
docs when the only version I have and use is licensed by Cadsoft.
>
>>Which also means you must take them with a grain of salt
>>and thoroughly check things like footprints
>>before using a part from a foreign library.
>>
>
> The *least* of your problems with an EAGLE *.LBR these days.
>
Again, for some reason I never had a lib problem. Ever. Other than
footprints I didn't like. But since I don't do layouts this doesn't
matter that much.
>
>>I adopted the habit of creating my own parts.
>>
>
> ...and it is now the ONLY way to *assure* no DRM madness.
>
I doubt that any of the libs on the Cadsoft server are infested.
>
>>Eagle is also remarkably inexpensive compared to products such as OrCad.
>>
>
> Amen.
>
>
>>That was one serious motivator for me to switch.
>>
>
> Amen.
>
>
>>But the main motivator was the support which is absolutely stellar.
>>
>
> If, by "support" you mean **a newsgroup** (2 groups, actually): Yes.
>
It's more than two. English isn't the only language on the planet ;-)
Cadsoft's support goes way beyond that. Whenever I had issues, usually
with netlist ports to other companies' CAD systems, I received a
detailed response from a Cadsoft engineer in under 24 hours. Considering
that there is a 9h time zone difference that is nothing short of
remarkable. And this is not the usual "Is it plugged in?" support, they
provided a detailed answer that allowed me to fix the problem.
The best: Their staff participates in the forums and they speak more
than one language. More than once have they offered "Hey, if the
schematic is confidential just send it directly to us and we'll analyze
the problem outside this forum". Recently one even offered support in
Spanish, realizing that the poster might feel more comfortable there.
That will always be the case. But the only time I found a level of
support like with Cadsoft was back in the old OrCad days. Got stuck with
a printer driver in Europe, called the company on Oregon. Suddenly
realized that it must be after hours there. Lo and behold someone picked
up anyhow and she said she is just cleaning up but will relay my
message, plus that I should explain it in a brief fax. Next day I had my
answer, three days later a disk with new printer driver edit utilities.
From what I understand those days seem to be gone.
Nico Coesel
>Fernando Peral P=E9rez wrote:
>
>> Hi.
>>=20
>> i'm using OrCAD for mid-low complexity design. I'm thinking of changing=
>=2E
>> What alternatives there are? what are the most used form professional
>> development? Some free quality software?
>
>Altium ? (Protel, DXP and such)
>They evelove the package at a rather quick
>pace, but more often than not stick to the
>second and third-intuitive solution. Meaning
>it is workable but the learning curve is
>steep and is kept being this way.
I've worked with Altium and it just sucks! Too many pop-ups and a very
non-intuitive interface. I assume it is made by people who have
absolutely no clue what the program is being used for.
--
Reply to nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
Bedrijven en winkels vindt U op www.adresboekje.nl
Joerg
> Rene Tschaggelar <no...@none.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Fernando Peral P=E9rez wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Hi.
>>>=20
>>>i'm using OrCAD for mid-low complexity design. I'm thinking of changing=
>>
>>=2E
>>
>>>What alternatives there are? what are the most used form professional
>>>development? Some free quality software?
>>
>>Altium ? (Protel, DXP and such)
>>They evelove the package at a rather quick
>>pace, but more often than not stick to the
>>second and third-intuitive solution. Meaning
>>it is workable but the learning curve is
>>steep and is kept being this way.
>
>
> I've worked with Altium and it just sucks! Too many pop-ups and a very
> non-intuitive interface. I assume it is made by people who have
> absolutely no clue what the program is being used for.
>
Did they outsource that also?
Robert Baer
Over the years, i tried various versions of Eagle, and was never able
to get any one of them to work; at best it was impossible to copy and/or
place any simple part (spell resistor, please).
So Eagle is totally out of the picture for me *unless* someone would
create from scratch, a Win2K hard drive with a completely WORKING
version of Eagle, and sell that to me.
DipTrace (if i remember the name correctly) is *almost* exactly what
i can use; it has some very nice features. But for small parts (SOT23-5
etc) it is not useful.
JeffM
[Massive amount of unnecessarily re-posted crap snipped]
>Over the years, i tried various versions of Eagle,
>and was never able to get any one of them to work;
>
EAGLE *does* have an un-Windows-like interface,
but Baer is the only person I can remember who couldn't get it going.
>DipTrace (if i remember the name correctly)
>
I would be surprized if that was the case.
>is *almost* exactly what i can use; it has some very nice features.
>But for small parts (SOT23-5 etc) it is not useful.
>
This is typical of the comments on DipTrace:
--well, those that aren't SPAM by the author.
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.cad/browse_frm/thread/52009faec93768fb/f271b04533416ca8?q=can't-picture-that+zz-zz+*-bug-problems+DipTrace+*-you-have-nothing-else-to-stand-on+ww-ww+qq+not-a-nice-choice
It appears to be someone's hobby
and is hardly a replacement for OrCAD.
DJ Delorie
I must be getting better at this, then, because I usually think of the
SOT23 size as "big".
But then again, I'm the one who's insane enough to hand-solder 01005
parts.
Joerg
It just takes a little practice. For example, in Eagle-speak cut means
copy and so on. For me the switch from OrCad to Eagle was similar to
learning to drive a car in Scotland, with right-hand steering. After a
couple of days it felt comfortable.
Placing is easy. Click ADD, then pick a resistor you like from the
discretes lib or from the SMT lib. If you have the German edition it
would be called Widerstand. You can select EU style or US style, and all
kinds of packages.
> So Eagle is totally out of the picture for me *unless* someone would
> create from scratch, a Win2K hard drive with a completely WORKING
> version of Eagle, and sell that to me.
C'mon, it ain't that hard. Mine does run on the Win2K PC but I can't
sell you my PC because I need it. And I am not going to retire anytime
soon ;-)
> DipTrace (if i remember the name correctly) is *almost* exactly what i
> can use; it has some very nice features. But for small parts (SOT23-5
> etc) it is not useful.
Don't know that one. Eagle can do pretty much anything, even the teeny
tiny SC-75 packages. But I usually don't do layouts myself.
Joerg
> Robert Baer <rober...@earthlink.net> writes:
>
>>But for small parts (SOT23-5 etc) it is not useful.
>
>
> I must be getting better at this, then, because I usually think of the
> SOT23 size as "big".
>
Yep, I had a flex circuit design recently where I turned a transistor
that only came in SOT23 around and around. Because compared to the
others it looked like a boulder.
> But then again, I'm the one who's insane enough to hand-solder 01005
> parts.
That is insane ;-)
I already need 3x glasses for 0402 :-(
DJ Delorie
Joerg <notthis...@removethispacbell.net> writes:
> That is insane ;-)
But possible! I have proof: http://www.delorie.com/pcb/first.html
> I already need 3x glasses for 0402 :-(
I use a 3.5x magnifying visor, but I still have to verify 01005's
under the scope. I use a 2x for my usual parts (0603, tssop, sot323).
Joerg
> Joerg <notthis...@removethispacbell.net> writes:
>
>>That is insane ;-)
>
>
> But possible! I have proof: http://www.delorie.com/pcb/first.html
>
Nice. But as grampa says, one sapling does not make no forest yet ;-)
>
>>I already need 3x glasses for 0402 :-(
>
>
> I use a 3.5x magnifying visor, but I still have to verify 01005's
> under the scope. I use a 2x for my usual parts (0603, tssop, sot323).
>
Yeah, I find myself increasingly having to use the 3x even on 0603
stuff. Especially at clients after a long trip. There must be something
to that "over the hill" talk, at least when it comes to eyesight.
Robert Baer
** *None* of those supposed functions worked in any shape, size or form.
Most of the time i was lucky that the damn program installed inthe
first place.
>
>
>> So Eagle is totally out of the picture for me *unless* someone would
>> create from scratch, a Win2K hard drive with a completely WORKING
>> version of Eagle, and sell that to me.
>
>
>
> C'mon, it ain't that hard. Mine does run on the Win2K PC but I can't
> sell you my PC because I need it. And I am not going to retire anytime
> soon ;-)
** You do not have to sell the PC; just clone the HD and remove what you
do not want me to see, and send me that.
I will put it in a removeable HD kit carrier so i can swap it in when
i need to run Eagle.
What would be your asking price?
Rene Tschaggelar
They are thinking omitting the useability testing
was a great idea. The developpers keep telling
the testers how to operate the software, a concept
that is outdated. What a pity. The technology
behing wouldn't be that bad.
Joerg
Hmm, that sounds more like a training issue. If the program itself fired
up then you had it installed properly. Meaning if I'd send you my HD
you'd see the same thing.
>>
>>
>>> So Eagle is totally out of the picture for me *unless* someone
>>> would create from scratch, a Win2K hard drive with a completely
>>> WORKING version of Eagle, and sell that to me.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> C'mon, it ain't that hard. Mine does run on the Win2K PC but I can't
>> sell you my PC because I need it. And I am not going to retire anytime
>> soon ;-)
>
> ** You do not have to sell the PC; just clone the HD and remove what you
> do not want me to see, and send me that.
> I will put it in a removeable HD kit carrier so i can swap it in when
> i need to run Eagle.
> What would be your asking price?
>
I am not the expert in mirroring hard drive and this is a laptop where I
cannot install a temporary 2nd drive.
Eagle really does require to read the booklet cover to cover. Or if you
have the free hobby version the pdf file. I had the "luck" of being
decommissioned with a serious backache for two days so I used that time
to study up on it. Another option is to find someone in your area and do
a small design together. I am pretty certain that there will be Eagle
users in the ham radio operator community.
Again, if you click on the Eagle icon, the control panel opens and you
can load an example schematic you'd have a working setup no different
from mine.
>>
>>
>>> DipTrace (if i remember the name correctly) is *almost* exactly
>>> what i can use; it has some very nice features. But for small parts
>>> (SOT23-5 etc) it is not useful.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Don't know that one. Eagle can do pretty much anything, even the teeny
>> tiny SC-75 packages. But I usually don't do layouts myself.
>>
Michael A. Terrell
>
> I am not the expert in mirroring hard drive and this is a laptop where I
> cannot install a temporary 2nd drive.
You can, with an external drive case. radio shack even has a 2.5"
drive case with a USB interface, but it needs two USB ports to power the
drive and the interface. They start at $10, plus shipping.
<http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/Category/category_tlc.asp?CatId=2777>
--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.
Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
krw
mike.t...@earthlink.net says...
> Joerg wrote:
> >
> > I am not the expert in mirroring hard drive and this is a laptop where I
> > cannot install a temporary 2nd drive.
>
>
> You can, with an external drive case. radio shack even has a 2.5"
> drive case with a USB interface, but it needs two USB ports to power the
> drive and the interface. They start at $10, plus shipping.
Hmm. How do you mirror to a USB drive?
> <http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/Category/category_tlc.asp?CatId=2777>
Newegg has bunches of 'em too. I bought a couple 3.5" external USB
cases with both SATA and PATA internal interfaces. I have unused
desktop drives (75GB PATA and 160GB SATA) in them. I was quite
surprised how fast the drives are on USB.
--
Keith
Michael A. Terrell
Make an image file, like you do when you create a bootable install
CDROM or DVD?
Joerg
> krw wrote:
>
>>In article <466AE00C...@earthlink.net>,
>>mike.t...@earthlink.net says...
>>
>>>Joerg wrote:
>>>
>>>>I am not the expert in mirroring hard drive and this is a laptop where I
>>>>cannot install a temporary 2nd drive.
>>>
>>>
>>> You can, with an external drive case. radio shack even has a 2.5"
>>>drive case with a USB interface, but it needs two USB ports to power the
>>>drive and the interface. They start at $10, plus shipping.
>>
>>Hmm. How do you mirror to a USB drive?
>>
>>
>>><http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/Category/category_tlc.asp?CatId=2777>
>>
>>Newegg has bunches of 'em too. I bought a couple 3.5" external USB
>>cases with both SATA and PATA internal interfaces. I have unused
>>desktop drives (75GB PATA and 160GB SATA) in them. I was quite
>>surprised how fast the drives are on USB.
>
>
>
> Make an image file, like you do when you create a bootable install
> CDROM or DVD?
>
Most likely that does not help Robert anyway. CAD software often
configures itself according to what it finds during the install. CAD is
much more demanding on the graphics card that other software. So even if
I'd send him a HD chances are it will not work right. But installation
of Eagle from a downloaded file (or the CD if you bought a license) is a
breeze. Half a cup of coffee and it's done.
Nico Coesel
I think so. They didn't even bother to revise the keyboard shortcuts
to modern standards. Just use the same as the Protel Autotrax software
did in 1988 (yes 1988).
krw
mike.t...@earthlink.net says...
> krw wrote:
> >
> > In article <466AE00C...@earthlink.net>,
> > mike.t...@earthlink.net says...
> > > Joerg wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I am not the expert in mirroring hard drive and this is a laptop where I
> > > > cannot install a temporary 2nd drive.
> > >
> > >
> > > You can, with an external drive case. radio shack even has a 2.5"
> > > drive case with a USB interface, but it needs two USB ports to power the
> > > drive and the interface. They start at $10, plus shipping.
> >
> > Hmm. How do you mirror to a USB drive?
> >
> > > <http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/Category/category_tlc.asp?CatId=2777>
> >
> > Newegg has bunches of 'em too. I bought a couple 3.5" external USB
> > cases with both SATA and PATA internal interfaces. I have unused
> > desktop drives (75GB PATA and 160GB SATA) in them. I was quite
> > surprised how fast the drives are on USB.
>
>
> Make an image file, like you do when you create a bootable install
> CDROM or DVD?
Ok, but that's not mirroring (RAID 0).
--
Keith
Marra
Joerg
Autotrax was pretty good. I guess then you might as well keep using it.
brett_h
You wrote on Sat, 09 Jun 2007 17:14:15 GMT:
MAT> Joerg wrote:
??>>
??>> I am not the expert in mirroring hard drive and this is a laptop where
??>> I cannot install a temporary 2nd drive.
MAT> You can, with an external drive case. radio shack even has a 2.5"
MAT> drive case with a USB interface, but it needs two USB ports to power
MAT> the drive and the interface. They start at $10, plus shipping.
MAT> <http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/Category/category_tlc.asp?Cat
MAT> Id=2777>
Eagle, can be installed to and run from a USB flash drive. Put it on a key
chain, carry it anywhere. For better speed, limit the number of libraries in
the (user specified) "lbr" vault at one time. This is also true for HD
installation.
Eagle is cheap, almost as easy to learn as a bad habit, and it fits on a
keychain. Zowee! Of course some people don't learn bad habits, and that
ain't necessarily a bad thing. Eagle is somewhat sloppy the way it works,
but mostly predictable. You don't have to pay an exorbitant sum to use it,
and you aren't burdened by a GByte installation with a near to brick-wall
learning curve. If CADSOFT listens to all the wonderful ideas and bitches
I've left on their suggestions forum, then one day they'll be GreAT! (but I
won't hold my breath)
With best regards, Brett Holden. E-mail: brett...@bellsoh.net
ut is out of place. move it to spell "bellsouth" to reply directly
Robert Latest
> I don't think I can be locked out of my own
> docs when the only version I have and use is licensed by Cadsoft.
Yes you can, that's the crazy thing. If someone, at some time, copy-and
pasted something into a schematic, board, or lib, and you copy stuff from
those files into your stuff, going from version to version, all seems fine.
But if any of the copies of Eagle used in the process was a cracked one and
its serial number gets into CadSoft's database of cracked serials, some day
an Eagle version may come along that won't open your documents any more.
Each Eagle document seems to include a list of serial numbers of all copies
of Eagle that it was opened with which even progresses through copy and
pastes of partial files.
Even if you never received stuff from third parties and only work with legal
copies of Eagle (like I do), you might some day be locked out of your docs
when someone got hold of some discarded ancient install CD with your serial
number and that copy got cracked.
It's not like the Eagle program can somehow detect that it has been cracked
and put a marker into its files. All the program does is put its serial #
into the files, and check the list of serial #'s in each file it opens
against a compiled-list of cracked numbers.
> Cadsoft's support goes way beyond that. Whenever I had issues, usually
> with netlist ports to other companies' CAD systems, I received a
> detailed response from a Cadsoft engineer in under 24 hours.
Same here.
robert
Joerg
> Joerg wrote:
>
>
>>I don't think I can be locked out of my own
>>docs when the only version I have and use is licensed by Cadsoft.
>
>
> Yes you can, that's the crazy thing. If someone, at some time, copy-and
> pasted something into a schematic, board, or lib, and you copy stuff from
> those files into your stuff, going from version to version, all seems fine.
> But if any of the copies of Eagle used in the process was a cracked one and
> its serial number gets into CadSoft's database of cracked serials, some day
> an Eagle version may come along that won't open your documents any more.
> Each Eagle document seems to include a list of serial numbers of all copies
> of Eagle that it was opened with which even progresses through copy and
> pastes of partial files.
>
> Even if you never received stuff from third parties and only work with legal
> copies of Eagle (like I do), you might some day be locked out of your docs
> when someone got hold of some discarded ancient install CD with your serial
> number and that copy got cracked.
>
> It's not like the Eagle program can somehow detect that it has been cracked
> and put a marker into its files. All the program does is put its serial #
> into the files, and check the list of serial #'s in each file it opens
> against a compiled-list of cracked numbers.
>
Are you sure? That would be a rather sub-optimal way to combat hacking.
But it is still unlikely to happen here because I do not discard any
software carelessly.
>
>>Cadsoft's support goes way beyond that. Whenever I had issues, usually
>>with netlist ports to other companies' CAD systems, I received a
>>detailed response from a Cadsoft engineer in under 24 hours.
>
>
> Same here.
>
To be fair, I have yet to see that level of support on other CAD
software. Or any other software for that matter.
Joerg
Like providing a hierarchical sheet structure. Ain't gonna happen for
version 5 though :-(((
But it seems we will get additional attribute fields. Ah, what a relief.
JeffM
>All the program does is put its serial # into the files,
>and check the list of serial #'s in each file it opens
>>against a compiled-list of cracked numbers.
>>
>Are you sure? That would be a rather sub-optimal way to combat hacking.
It sounds like you are saying that it hasn't been know for decades
that DRM is a really stupid idea (even at its best).
(Like Dubya) there are a lot of people that see themselves as Pit
Bulls
and who don't see *refusing to let go of a bad idea* as a fault.
http://www.google.com/search?q=site:slashdot.org+WGA+intitle:False-Positives+OR+intitle:Is-Non-Genuine
http://www.google.com/search?q=of.all.the.people.who.pirate.Windows+how.many.ever.subject.themselves.to.WGA
Again: DRM only affects the people you least want to piss off:
Your PAYING customers.
Making DRM surreptitious is just twisting the knife.
Fernando Peral Pérez
> Fernando Peral Pérez MULTI-POSTED:
>> i'm using OrCAD[...]I'm thinking of changing.
>
> http://groups.google.com/groups/search?q=alternatives&enc_author=UK3f8SIAAADbA7cCu-NITz4XN4JgdOUj_HYAfxWRjt5HLd1K_d9UJfK4ZR9D55eO8-AGYTffARY&scoring=d&filter=0
> do embrace this notion:
> http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:qHhBKJ-sXKYJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-post+adequately.answered+corrected+with.commas+individually+Disclaimers+*-*-*-marked-as-Read-in-ALL-*-groups+Newsgroups.line
>
well , i apologize for that.
I thought the mater was OK for both groups, so i sent it to both. I
doesn't realice i must send it to both groups at the same time. I will
remember it in the future.
Thank JeffM for the link
Thank everybody for your answers
Marra
<fperalNOQUIEROS...@patagonmail.com> wrote:
> JeffM escribió:
>
> > Fernando Peral Pérez MULTI-POSTED:
> >> i'm using OrCAD[...]I'm thinking of changing.
>
> > If you are going to post the *same* question to MULTIPLE groups,
> > do embrace this notion:
> >http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:qHhBKJ-sXKYJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki...
>
> well , i apologize for that.
> I thought the mater was OK for both groups, so i sent it to both. I
> doesn't realice i must send it to both groups at the same time. I will
> remember it in the future.
> Thank JeffM for the link
> Thank everybody for your answers
edwinxp is a tad expensive.
There is usually something on ebay for a few quid.