Fluke 87V - any reason not to buy?
ehsjr
replacement.
Any reason(s) not to buy the 87V ?
TIA
Ed
David L. Jones
No major issues.
It isn't the worlds most popular mulitmeter for no reason.
Couple of annoying features - it defaults to AC for the curent ranges, the
backlight comes on briefly when changing into 4.5 digit mode, and the
tilting bail it pretty ordinary.
But apart from that, a top meter.
http://www.eevblog.com/2009/05/24/eevblog-10-part-1-of-2-more-cheap-chinese-multimeters/
and
http://www.eevblog.com/2009/05/24/eevblog-10-part-2-of-2-fluke-87-v-multimeter-review/
Dave.
--
---------------------------------------------
Check out my Electronics Engineering Video Blog & Podcast:
http://www.eevblog.com
Joerg
Fluke is a good company. But last time I opted for a Chinese meter which
turned out to be rather precise. Of course, if you need 4-1/2 digits or
the ATEX rating you almost have to buy the Fluke.
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.
David L. Jones
> ehsjr wrote:
>> My old Fluke has a bleeding LCD, so time to buy a
>> replacement.
>>
>> Any reason(s) not to buy the 87V ?
>>
>
> Fluke is a good company. But last time I opted for a Chinese meter
> which turned out to be rather precise. Of course, if you need 4-1/2
> digits or the ATEX rating you almost have to buy the Fluke.
There are other top-shelf choices.
Gossen Metrawatt and Agilent come to mind.
My blog review of a Gossen meter should be up within a few hours.
Ross Herbert
:Joerg wrote:
:> ehsjr wrote:
:>> My old Fluke has a bleeding LCD, so time to buy a
:>> replacement.
:>>
:>> Any reason(s) not to buy the 87V ?
:>>
:>
:> Fluke is a good company. But last time I opted for a Chinese meter
:> which turned out to be rather precise. Of course, if you need 4-1/2
:> digits or the ATEX rating you almost have to buy the Fluke.
:
:There are other top-shelf choices.
:Gossen Metrawatt and Agilent come to mind.
:My blog review of a Gossen meter should be up within a few hours.
:
:Dave.
I would thoroughly recommend the Gossen Metrawatt Metrahit range.
http://www.gossenmetrawatt.com/english/ugruppe/multimeters.htm
ehsjr
> ehsjr wrote:
>
>>My old Fluke has a bleeding LCD, so time to buy a
>>replacement.
>>
>>Any reason(s) not to buy the 87V ?
>
>
> No major issues.
> It isn't the worlds most popular mulitmeter for no reason.
> Couple of annoying features - it defaults to AC for the curent ranges, the
> backlight comes on briefly when changing into 4.5 digit mode, and the
> tilting bail it pretty ordinary.
> But apart from that, a top meter.
> http://www.eevblog.com/2009/05/24/eevblog-10-part-1-of-2-more-cheap-chinese-multimeters/
> and
> http://www.eevblog.com/2009/05/24/eevblog-10-part-2-of-2-fluke-87-v-multimeter-review/
>
> Dave.
>
Thanks, Dave. It's on order. :-)
Ed
Joerg
Yes, I'll second that, Gossen is pretty much the Daimler-Benz in the
meter industry. You almost can't go wrong but it ain't cheap.
ehsjr
> ehsjr wrote:
>
>> My old Fluke has a bleeding LCD, so time to buy a
>> replacement.
>>
>> Any reason(s) not to buy the 87V ?
>>
>
> Fluke is a good company. But last time I opted for a Chinese meter which
> turned out to be rather precise. Of course, if you need 4-1/2 digits or
> the ATEX rating you almost have to buy the Fluke.
>
Hi Joerg, I'd have to say it's rare that I _need_ 4 1/2 digits
in a handheld DMM. Nice to have, of course. :-)
Thanks,
Ed
David L. Jones
> Ross Herbert wrote:
>> On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 13:44:03 +1100, "David L. Jones"
>> <alt...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Joerg wrote:
>>>> ehsjr wrote:
>>>>> My old Fluke has a bleeding LCD, so time to buy a
>>>>> replacement.
>>>>>
>>>>> Any reason(s) not to buy the 87V ?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Fluke is a good company. But last time I opted for a Chinese meter
>>>> which turned out to be rather precise. Of course, if you need 4-1/2
>>>> digits or the ATEX rating you almost have to buy the Fluke.
>>>
>>> There are other top-shelf choices.
>>> Gossen Metrawatt and Agilent come to mind.
>>> My blog review of a Gossen meter should be up within a few hours.
>>>
>>> Dave.
>>
>>
>> I would thoroughly recommend the Gossen Metrawatt Metrahit range.
>> http://www.gossenmetrawatt.com/english/ugruppe/multimeters.htm
>
>
> Yes, I'll second that, Gossen is pretty much the Daimler-Benz in the
> meter industry. You almost can't go wrong
It did for me.
Gossen sent me two meters for use on my blog, the Metrahit Xtra and the
Metrahit World.
The Metrahit World FAILED within a few hours of using it, I was not a happy
little camper. Gossen are looking into the problem...
Very nicely made meters though.
My MetraHit review is up:
http://www.eevblog.com/2009/11/29/eevblog-46-gossen-metrawatt-xtra-multimeter-review/
Dave.
--
================================================
Joel Koltner
news:PkHQm.54303$de6....@newsfe21.iad...
> My MetraHit review is up:
> http://www.eevblog.com/2009/11/29/eevblog-46-gossen-metrawatt-xtra-multimeter-review/
I love your repeated riff on Metrawatt as "tight asses" for the $500 IR to USB
converter. Made me laugh out loud several times... :-)
Joerg
Yeah, it's like those 200+ horses under the hood of a car :-)
Jim Thompson
wrote:
>ehsjr wrote:
>> Joerg wrote:
>>> ehsjr wrote:
>>>
>>>> My old Fluke has a bleeding LCD, so time to buy a
>>>> replacement.
>>>>
>>>> Any reason(s) not to buy the 87V ?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Fluke is a good company. But last time I opted for a Chinese meter
>>> which turned out to be rather precise. Of course, if you need 4-1/2
>>> digits or the ATEX rating you almost have to buy the Fluke.
>>>
>>
>> Hi Joerg, I'd have to say it's rare that I _need_ 4 1/2 digits
>> in a handheld DMM. Nice to have, of course. :-)
>>
>
>Yeah, it's like those 200+ horses under the hood of a car :-)
I drove my 340-horsepower V8 at 90MPH when I went to lunch today ;-)
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
krw
wrote:
>ehsjr wrote:
>> Joerg wrote:
>>> ehsjr wrote:
>>>
>>>> My old Fluke has a bleeding LCD, so time to buy a
>>>> replacement.
>>>>
>>>> Any reason(s) not to buy the 87V ?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Fluke is a good company. But last time I opted for a Chinese meter
>>> which turned out to be rather precise. Of course, if you need 4-1/2
>>> digits or the ATEX rating you almost have to buy the Fluke.
>>>
>>
>> Hi Joerg, I'd have to say it's rare that I _need_ 4 1/2 digits
>> in a handheld DMM. Nice to have, of course. :-)
>>
>
>Yeah, it's like those 200+ horses under the hood of a car :-)
200? Wimp. ;-)
Joerg
krw
wrote:
>krw wrote:
>> On Mon, 30 Nov 2009 14:55:00 -0800, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> ehsjr wrote:
>>>> Joerg wrote:
>>>>> ehsjr wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> My old Fluke has a bleeding LCD, so time to buy a
>>>>>> replacement.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any reason(s) not to buy the 87V ?
>>>>>>
>>>>> Fluke is a good company. But last time I opted for a Chinese meter
>>>>> which turned out to be rather precise. Of course, if you need 4-1/2
>>>>> digits or the ATEX rating you almost have to buy the Fluke.
>>>>>
>>>> Hi Joerg, I'd have to say it's rare that I _need_ 4 1/2 digits
>>>> in a handheld DMM. Nice to have, of course. :-)
>>>>
>>> Yeah, it's like those 200+ horses under the hood of a car :-)
>>
>> 200? Wimp. ;-)
>
>
>You should have seen my first car. 16 horsies:
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Export_67.jpg
Fred Flintstone had more power.
Jim Thompson
wrote:
>krw wrote:
>> On Mon, 30 Nov 2009 14:55:00 -0800, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> ehsjr wrote:
>>>> Joerg wrote:
>>>>> ehsjr wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> My old Fluke has a bleeding LCD, so time to buy a
>>>>>> replacement.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any reason(s) not to buy the 87V ?
>>>>>>
>>>>> Fluke is a good company. But last time I opted for a Chinese meter
>>>>> which turned out to be rather precise. Of course, if you need 4-1/2
>>>>> digits or the ATEX rating you almost have to buy the Fluke.
>>>>>
>>>> Hi Joerg, I'd have to say it's rare that I _need_ 4 1/2 digits
>>>> in a handheld DMM. Nice to have, of course. :-)
>>>>
>>> Yeah, it's like those 200+ horses under the hood of a car :-)
>>
>> 200? Wimp. ;-)
>
>
>You should have seen my first car. 16 horsies:
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Export_67.jpg
I was always more into higher horsepower cars... '61 Renault Dauphine
ehsjr
> On Mon, 30 Nov 2009 14:55:00 -0800, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>
>>ehsjr wrote:
>>
>>>Joerg wrote:
>>>
>>>>ehsjr wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>My old Fluke has a bleeding LCD, so time to buy a
>>>>>replacement.
>>>>>
>>>>>Any reason(s) not to buy the 87V ?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Fluke is a good company. But last time I opted for a Chinese meter
>>>>which turned out to be rather precise. Of course, if you need 4-1/2
>>>>digits or the ATEX rating you almost have to buy the Fluke.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Hi Joerg, I'd have to say it's rare that I _need_ 4 1/2 digits
>>>in a handheld DMM. Nice to have, of course. :-)
>>>
>>
>>Yeah, it's like those 200+ horses under the hood of a car :-)
>
>
> I drove my 340-horsepower V8 at 90MPH when I went to lunch today ;-)
>
> ...Jim Thompson
Fast food restaurant? :-)
Ed
Michael A. Terrell
And better brakes! :)
--
The movie 'Deliverance' isn't a documentary!
Jim Thompson
wrote:
Nope. "Freeways" are for "free spirits" ;-)
(I rarely spend less than two/two-and-a-half hours at lunch. I could
take longer, except I have to be back by 3:30PM to meet a grandson's
school bus.)
Joerg
> krw wrote:
>> On Mon, 30 Nov 2009 18:02:55 -0800, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> krw wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 30 Nov 2009 14:55:00 -0800, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ehsjr wrote:
>>>>>> Joerg wrote:
>>>>>>> ehsjr wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My old Fluke has a bleeding LCD, so time to buy a
>>>>>>>> replacement.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Any reason(s) not to buy the 87V ?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Fluke is a good company. But last time I opted for a Chinese meter
>>>>>>> which turned out to be rather precise. Of course, if you need 4-1/2
>>>>>>> digits or the ATEX rating you almost have to buy the Fluke.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Joerg, I'd have to say it's rare that I _need_ 4 1/2 digits
>>>>>> in a handheld DMM. Nice to have, of course. :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>> Yeah, it's like those 200+ horses under the hood of a car :-)
>>>> 200? Wimp. ;-)
>>>
>>> You should have seen my first car. 16 horsies:
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Export_67.jpg
>> Fred Flintstone had more power.
>
>
> And better brakes! :)
>
:-)
The brakes of this Citroen were amazing. Huge drums and you could adjust
them for hard of soft grip. Once a guy ran a red light, I hit the brakes
hard and the guy in an Audi behind me watched with wide open eyes how
his car crunched into the back of my Citroen. "How on earth could you
stop that fast?"
The really nice thing was: 50mpg, regular unleaded. Andre Citroen's guys
could do in the late 30's what took "modern" automotive engineers decades.
Joerg
> On Mon, 30 Nov 2009 18:02:55 -0800, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> krw wrote:
>>> On Mon, 30 Nov 2009 14:55:00 -0800, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> ehsjr wrote:
>>>>> Joerg wrote:
>>>>>> ehsjr wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My old Fluke has a bleeding LCD, so time to buy a
>>>>>>> replacement.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Any reason(s) not to buy the 87V ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fluke is a good company. But last time I opted for a Chinese meter
>>>>>> which turned out to be rather precise. Of course, if you need 4-1/2
>>>>>> digits or the ATEX rating you almost have to buy the Fluke.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Joerg, I'd have to say it's rare that I _need_ 4 1/2 digits
>>>>> in a handheld DMM. Nice to have, of course. :-)
>>>>>
>>>> Yeah, it's like those 200+ horses under the hood of a car :-)
>>> 200? Wimp. ;-)
>>
>> You should have seen my first car. 16 horsies:
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Export_67.jpg
>
> I was always more into higher horsepower cars... '61 Renault Dauphine
> ;-)
>
Started out with 19 horses but there was a "racing version" with 37hp:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Dauphine
Joel Koltner
news:7nl0rrF...@mid.individual.net...
> Once a guy ran a red light, I hit the brakes hard and the guy in an Audi
> behind me watched with wide open eyes how his car crunched into the back of
> my Citroen. "How on earth could you stop that fast?"
It helps when the combined weight of the vehicle and its passengers are under
500lbs.? :-)
Joerg
Actually it wasn't even very light, it had a full dual-side box frame
underneath and the gasoline tank was supposedly in a rather bullet-proof
location (between the frame sides).
Jim Thompson
wrote:
I had the 32hp version.
Joerg
Mine had 16 horses. In the following model year (1970) Citroen upped
that to 23hp. They were still called the ugly duckling or duck. Then a
2CV6 came out, I think also around 30hp and that one was called the
"Power Gander". Of course none of these names were officially recongized
by Citroen.
1970 they also went to a push-button operated starter with, tada,
innovation, a solenoid that engaged its gear. Mine still had a steel
rope under the dash which you had to pull. Of course, since I was
tooling around sans battery I had to use the crank. Chugga, chugga,
poof, chugga ... ka-clunkah ... *POOF* ... vrooom.
ehsjr
Did the 2cv (early '60s) have the air suspension like the
big sedan? I seem to recall it was fairly harsh - at least
as compared to the sedan's suspension - so I suspect it
didn't, but don't know.
Ed
Joerg
No, it had a very unique non-air method: Long arms and adjustable (!)
springs in their pivots, on all four wheels and independent. The shock
absorbers were disks in those pivots and could also be adjusted. The
ride was extremely smooth. You could barrel across a rough RR crossing
at 50mph and the car would gently and slowly rock, many yards later. Do
the same in a "normal" car and stuff goes flying or it might get
uncomfortably close to a loss of control situation. In that respect the
2CV was amazing.
Once my 2CV was the only car that succeeded to get heavy equipment
across a muddy field for a ham radio contest. It had rained for days.
Several guys lifted the front, all the way out, while I slid a piece of
wood under the front wheel arms and fastened it. Now the car pointed
upward almost like an aircraft on rotation. The undercarriage was
completely smooth so I didn't bother to do the same in back, I just let
that slide around on the mud a bit and we got there. Heck, you could
barely walk that field, on every step the boots would make a slurping sound.
Palinurus
> ehsjr wrote:
>> Joerg wrote:
>>> ehsjr wrote:
>>>
>>>> My old Fluke has a bleeding LCD, so time to buy a
>>>> replacement.
>>>>
>>>> Any reason(s) not to buy the 87V ?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Fluke is a good company. But last time I opted for a Chinese meter
>>> which turned out to be rather precise. Of course, if you need 4-1/2
>>> digits or the ATEX rating you almost have to buy the Fluke.
>>>
>>
The 87V is a good meter. I work in a metrology shop, and I've seen a
lot of them go by. They tend to hold calibration, and will survive a
fair amount of abuse, and sometimes that extra digit is necessary. You
will occasionally see a 5 1/2 digit handheld, but that last digit is
largely bogus, just noise. The main thing that may be urged against the
87V is the price.
Joerg
Fluke stuff is good but they better get their hands around the pricing
issue, and soon. I've got several Chinese meters here that aren't bad at
all. With scopes it sort of happened already: The Taiwanese DSO here in
my lab runs circles around similarly priced stuff from Tek.
The only thing I don't like with Chinese meters is the red color of the
holster. Maybe the politburo mandated they'd have to be red ;-)
ehsjr
I've been very pleased with Chinese meters, but it is exactly
as Dave indicated in his blog. My confidence in the cheaper
meters was based on comparison with the Fluke's readings. When
I needed relatively exact measurements, I'd use the Fluke.
Most of the time, ballpark is good enough. Comparable Chinese
stuff was as accurate as the Fluke, but the confidence was always
with Fluke. In one case I needed to monitor dual Iout & Vout
and single Iin & Vin on a supply design. No need to use
six Flukes! I just had to watch for variation on the output
as input was varied, so the Fluke just became the "calibration
standard" for the other meters.
That said, when the old Fluke died, it justified buying a new
one - which arrived yesterday. :-) The manual that came with
it is in 15 languages. Fifteen!! Does that mean I need to run
to Berlitz & sign up for lessons before I can figure out all
the features? :-)
Ed
Joerg
Even Asian gear has that now. My Instek scope came with lots of language
options for the on-screen menu. With many of them I had trouble finding
out what they were because the language setup identifies them in their
native character set. The written manual is English-only though. I find
it sad when companies print a 2" thick stack knowing that 90% of it will
either never be read or thrown away because everyone uses English
anyhow. They should give me those trees instead, cuz it's friggin' cold
and I can use the firewood :-)
JosephKK
wrote:
I'll second that. Throwing on extra blankies and turning up the
thermostat for the last couple of nights. At this rate my energy
bills are going to be out of sight this season.
Jim Thompson
"JosephKK"<quiett...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 06 Dec 2009 13:27:26 -0800, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
>wrote:
>
[>>> level snip]
>>ehsjr wrote:
>>
>>Even Asian gear has that now. My Instek scope came with lots of language
>>options for the on-screen menu. With many of them I had trouble finding
>>out what they were because the language setup identifies them in their
>>native character set. The written manual is English-only though. I find
>>it sad when companies print a 2" thick stack knowing that 90% of it will
>>either never be read or thrown away because everyone uses English
>>anyhow. They should give me those trees instead, cuz it's friggin' cold
>>and I can use the firewood :-)
>
>I'll second that. Throwing on extra blankies and turning up the
>thermostat for the last couple of nights. At this rate my energy
>bills are going to be out of sight this season.
I finally turned on heat last night.
Slept much better ;-)
Awoke to a wind-damaged patio... table with glass top, and 4
"captain's" chairs tossed into the grass.
Amazingly it appears the glass did not break.
Now that the sun is coming up I'll go out and see how bad off it is
:-(
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
In wine there is wisdom,
In beer there is freedom,
In water there is bacteria
- Benjamin Franklin
Joerg
Get a wood stove. Seriously, best investment we ever made in this house.
Global "warming" has led us from 2-cord winters (where we got socked
with a $709 propane bill for one (!) month and got the wood stove) to
4-cord winters. And I am not sure whether the purchase of 5 cords
wouldn't be advised for next winter.
Can you imagine what propane heating would cost us this winter?
krw
<To-Email-Use-Th...@My-Web-Site.com/Snicker> wrote:
>On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 03:13:54 -0800,
>"JosephKK"<quiett...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 06 Dec 2009 13:27:26 -0800, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
>>wrote:
>>
>[>>> level snip]
>>>ehsjr wrote:
>>>
>>>Even Asian gear has that now. My Instek scope came with lots of language
>>>options for the on-screen menu. With many of them I had trouble finding
>>>out what they were because the language setup identifies them in their
>>>native character set. The written manual is English-only though. I find
>>>it sad when companies print a 2" thick stack knowing that 90% of it will
>>>either never be read or thrown away because everyone uses English
>>>anyhow. They should give me those trees instead, cuz it's friggin' cold
>>>and I can use the firewood :-)
>>
>>I'll second that. Throwing on extra blankies and turning up the
>>thermostat for the last couple of nights. At this rate my energy
>>bills are going to be out of sight this season.
>
>I finally turned on heat last night.
This year we went directly from AC to HP without a day in between.
Since, we've only had the heat off for a day or two. Last year it was
two months between AC off and HP on.
>Slept much better ;-)
I like it cold when I sleep. In VT we'd back the heat off to 58F at
night (64F during the day, unless we were home and especially cold).
>Awoke to a wind-damaged patio... table with glass top, and 4
>"captain's" chairs tossed into the grass.
>
>Amazingly it appears the glass did not break.
It takes a *lot* to break that stuff. When it does go, watch out!
krw
wrote:
I think we're going to put the gas logs in the fireplace this year.
>Can you imagine what propane heating would cost us this winter?
Propane varies widely across the country. In VT it was about 3x what
oil cost. Dunno here, yet.
Jim Thompson
I turned on one of the heat pumps last night ;-)
Joerg
> On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 08:10:22 -0800, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
> wrote:
>
[...]
>> Get a wood stove. Seriously, best investment we ever made in this house.
>> Global "warming" has led us from 2-cord winters (where we got socked
>> with a $709 propane bill for one (!) month and got the wood stove) to
>> 4-cord winters. And I am not sure whether the purchase of 5 cords
>> wouldn't be advised for next winter.
>
> I think we're going to put the gas logs in the fireplace this year.
>
>> Can you imagine what propane heating would cost us this winter?
>
> Propane varies widely across the country. In VT it was about 3x what
> oil cost. Dunno here, yet.
It's way more than gasoline out here in CA even though it has less BTU.
So we thumbed our noses at the oil companies and went to wood heat. But
I wish we had a bigger stove, with all this cooling trend. Despite what
experts say I now think that bigger is better.
JosephKK
wrote:
>krw wrote:
>> On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 08:10:22 -0800, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>
>[...]
>
>>> Get a wood stove. Seriously, best investment we ever made in this house.
>>> Global "warming" has led us from 2-cord winters (where we got socked
>>> with a $709 propane bill for one (!) month and got the wood stove) to
>>> 4-cord winters. And I am not sure whether the purchase of 5 cords
>>> wouldn't be advised for next winter.
>>
>> I think we're going to put the gas logs in the fireplace this year.
>>
>>> Can you imagine what propane heating would cost us this winter?
>>
>> Propane varies widely across the country. In VT it was about 3x what
>> oil cost. Dunno here, yet.
>
>
>It's way more than gasoline out here in CA even though it has less BTU.
>So we thumbed our noses at the oil companies and went to wood heat. But
>I wish we had a bigger stove, with all this cooling trend. Despite what
>experts say I now think that bigger is better.
I would certainly pay attention to how efficient it was over its
heating power working range.
Joerg
Well, that's just it. At the 20% to 50% level it's supposedly around
78%. But California seems to get colder every year. So, more and more we
find ourselves running it close to full bore and that's where the
efficiency drops off. Still a clean burn, no smoke, but lots more heat
escapes through the chimney. Modern wood stoves can operate quite well
at the lower burn settings but not when you run them with primary plus
secondary air fully open. Probably because they don't have much of a
baffle system like older stoves do. Then they start eating wood as if it
was popcorn. At this rate I am not sure our 4 cords will last through
winter :-(
This morning it happened for the first time that we needed wood stove +
pellet stove + central heat to get the house warm. Here in the office it
was 58F at 7:00am even though wood and pellet stoves ran all night.
Jim Thompson
wrote:
Damn! I come unglued at 68�F... but then our humidity is ZERO :-(
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
Help save the environment!
Please dispose of socialism properly!
Joerg
How do you recognize an Arizonan? When he says "But it's a dry heat ..."
In an hour I am starting my 2nd attempt to whack the ice cover on the
steep driveway because I need to get to a client tomorrow, after being
more or less stuck here in the house since Sunday. Wish me luck. This
morning I heard a neighbor somewhere trying the same, then started up
the car, put in gear, release brake ... ka-crunchah ... ka-chrunch ...
phsssseeeee ... *CRUNCH* ... sounded like it's sitting in a frozen snow
bank now.
Jim Thompson
wrote:
Saves us from feeling terrible in the heat, but makes cold _really_
cold :-(
I ought to add a humidifier to this house, but they're a pain to
maintain.
>
>In an hour I am starting my 2nd attempt to whack the ice cover on the
>steep driveway because I need to get to a client tomorrow, after being
>more or less stuck here in the house since Sunday. Wish me luck. This
>morning I heard a neighbor somewhere trying the same, then started up
>the car, put in gear, release brake ... ka-crunchah ... ka-chrunch ...
>phsssseeeee ... *CRUNCH* ... sounded like it's sitting in a frozen snow
>bank now.
You don't have any ice salt?
Joerg
Yeah, I don't like to do it because it's bad for the environment but I
just pelted the driveway with salt. Hopefully does the trick and gives
us a window. That window closes in minutes when the sun goes past that
driveway and the melting runoff re-freezes to black ice in minutes.
Happened yesterday. I was nearly at the bottom and wanted to go back up
for a break, and almost couldn't.
JosephKK
wrote:
>JosephKK wrote:
I see that you understood me well. 58F is too crispy for me to get up
without an emergency. I suggest at least two more cords. And more
pellets. ISTR your place was decently insulated, but the cold snap
has just been extreme.
JosephKK
wrote:
>Jim Thompson wrote:
>> Damn! I come unglued at 68ºF... but then our humidity is ZERO :-(
>>
>
>How do you recognize an Arizonan? When he says "But it's a dry heat ..."
>
>In an hour I am starting my 2nd attempt to whack the ice cover on the
>steep driveway because I need to get to a client tomorrow, after being
>more or less stuck here in the house since Sunday. Wish me luck. This
>morning I heard a neighbor somewhere trying the same, then started up
>the car, put in gear, release brake ... ka-crunchah ... ka-chrunch ...
>phsssseeeee ... *CRUNCH* ... sounded like it's sitting in a frozen snow
>bank now.
This may sound weird but try taking a leaf blower to it.
Joerg
>>>
>> How do you recognize an Arizonan? When he says "But it's a dry heat ..."
>>
>> In an hour I am starting my 2nd attempt to whack the ice cover on the
>> steep driveway because I need to get to a client tomorrow, after being
>> more or less stuck here in the house since Sunday. Wish me luck. This
>> morning I heard a neighbor somewhere trying the same, then started up
>> the car, put in gear, release brake ... ka-crunchah ... ka-chrunch ...
>> phsssseeeee ... *CRUNCH* ... sounded like it's sitting in a frozen snow
>> bank now.
>
> This may sound weird but try taking a leaf blower to it.
To a 2" ice cover? Well, I got it to go away, mostly, by whacking it
with a shovel, shoveling the ice sheets aside and dumping salt onto the
surface. The ice shattered with a noise like glass.
Joerg
The home is well insulated but the windows aren't. Single pane, albeit
thick glass. However, yesterday at the client I found that one of the
engineers had just replaced it on his whole house with dual-pane. $30k!
Our house has a lot more windows and sliders :-(
IOW, there ain't no chance at all to recoup that sort of investment.
Dave Platt
Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
>The home is well insulated but the windows aren't. Single pane, albeit
>thick glass. However, yesterday at the client I found that one of the
>engineers had just replaced it on his whole house with dual-pane. $30k!
>Our house has a lot more windows and sliders :-(
Ouch. We had a similar job done a few years ago - one-story
ranch-style, two big patio glass double-doors, big dual-pane sliding
windows in three bedrooms and the kitchen, plus a couple of bathroom
windows. We had low-emission double-pane glass installed, with
extra-thick used in the master bedroom and attached bath. The total
came to just a bit over $5k.
>IOW, there ain't no chance at all to recoup that sort of investment.
As far as comfort goes, though, it's a real win. The house feels a
lot snugger in winter, and significantly cooler during the hot days of
summer (it was well-insulated in other respects when we bought it).
I think it's the best investment we've made in the place.
Shop around... you may find that you can get good-quality double-pane
windows installed for rather less than what your cow-orker paid.
--
Dave Platt <dpl...@radagast.org> AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!
Joerg
> In article <7ofiv7F...@mid.individual.net>,
> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
>
>> The home is well insulated but the windows aren't. Single pane, albeit
>> thick glass. However, yesterday at the client I found that one of the
>> engineers had just replaced it on his whole house with dual-pane. $30k!
>> Our house has a lot more windows and sliders :-(
>
> Ouch. We had a similar job done a few years ago - one-story
> ranch-style, two big patio glass double-doors, big dual-pane sliding
> windows in three bedrooms and the kitchen, plus a couple of bathroom
> windows. We had low-emission double-pane glass installed, with
> extra-thick used in the master bedroom and attached bath. The total
> came to just a bit over $5k.
>
Do you remember which brand and who the installer company was (if
nationwide)? I am in Northen California. Which sometimes feels like
Siberia lately ...
>> IOW, there ain't no chance at all to recoup that sort of investment.
>
> As far as comfort goes, though, it's a real win. The house feels a
> lot snugger in winter, and significantly cooler during the hot days of
> summer (it was well-insulated in other respects when we bought it).
>
> I think it's the best investment we've made in the place.
>
> Shop around... you may find that you can get good-quality double-pane
> windows installed for rather less than what your cow-orker paid.
>
Ok, will do. I've heard that the Pella brand is good but I can't ask the
friend who had those installed over here because he passed away :-(
ehsjr
Both Pella and Andersen were top rated when I looked into
it, many moons ago - 1979. AFAIK they still are. In the meantime,
have you ever thought of using that plastic heat shrink sheeting
that you install on the inside? When we bought the house, the
windows leaked like a sieve, and there was no money to replace.
So we used that stuff for several winters until we saved enough
for new windows. The stuff worked great! MUCH more comfortable.
The stuff comes with plastic tracks with self-stick tape on them.
Peel the tape, install the tracks. Put the sheet up and press it
into the groove in the tracks with a T shaped piece of plastic trim
that goes into the groove. Then heat and you get a nice tight
wrinkle free transparent look. You can't open the windows,
so if warm days come and you want air, you have to use the doors.
Other than that, there's no downside to using it, at least
none that I encountered.
Ed
JosephKK
>>>> Damn! I come unglued at 68ºF... but then our humidity is ZERO :-(
>>>>
>>> How do you recognize an Arizonan? When he says "But it's a dry heat ..."
>>>
>>> In an hour I am starting my 2nd attempt to whack the ice cover on the
>>> steep driveway because I need to get to a client tomorrow, after being
>>> more or less stuck here in the house since Sunday. Wish me luck. This
>>> morning I heard a neighbor somewhere trying the same, then started up
>>> the car, put in gear, release brake ... ka-crunchah ... ka-chrunch ...
>>> phsssseeeee ... *CRUNCH* ... sounded like it's sitting in a frozen snow
>>> bank now.
>>
>> This may sound weird but try taking a leaf blower to it.
>
>
>To a 2" ice cover? Well, I got it to go away, mostly, by whacking it
>with a shovel, shoveling the ice sheets aside and dumping salt onto the
>surface. The ice shattered with a noise like glass.
Oops. I was thinking small fractional inch.
JosephKK
I would not make that decision quite so quickly, dual pane low-E can
make a big difference in HVAC costs. Ask a "Pro" and reduce the
promised savings 50%. Also insist on documentation on the nature
and issues of any proposed savings of "rebates".
Joerg
That's a problem out here. If mounted on the outside the fierce winds we
have will tear it away. Insides there's the paws of three dogs, two of
them a tad on the wild side at times. We have to clean the slider glass
almost weekly, paw prints inside and out.
Joerg
Oh yeah, we will be very careful. It seems there are quite some
"inconsistencies" and wild swings in this business when it comes to
pricing. As for HVAC, we don't use AC much in the summer. It's the wood
stove that has to crank so darn hard in winter because it seems to get
colder every winter.
Jim Thompson
wrote:
On several of our big windows we have "roll-a-shields", somewhat like
I've seen in Europe to close off store fronts at night.
Ours, of course, are electric-powered, but you might prefer
hand-cranked ;-)
We close ours when the sun is on the north side of the house (15' x
15' windows) or, like now, when it's cold at night.
Quite effective... the slats are composite layers of
aluminum-foam-aluminum.
Joerg
We had that in Germany, real heavy duty stuff. However, even people in
town can't believe the winds we get up here on this knoll until they've
experienced them. Heavy chairs becoming airborne and so on. Would tear
this stuff right out of its tracks and then on into the road.
Now how does the sun get to the _north_ of your house? Did they move
Arizona south of the equator? Habla Espanol por ahora?
Jim Thompson
wrote:
The recent microburst that sent the patio furniture careening didn't
do anything to the roll-a-shield... I know it was a microburst... it
completely flipped over a garbage container _within_ our walled-off
garbage container area :-(
>
>Now how does the sun get to the _north_ of your house? Did they move
>Arizona south of the equator? Habla Espanol por ahora?
You don't understand summer/winter tilt ?:-)
It doesn't get north by much... just enough.
krw
Umm, Phoenix is 33N. The highest latitude where the sun would be
overhead (Winter solstice) is 23.5N.
>It doesn't get north by much... just enough.
If by not much you mean -10degrees. ;-)
OTOH, at higher latitudes the summer sun rises/sets quite far to the
north of due east/west.
Jim Thompson
Well, the Sun DOES come in the north-side windows in late afternoon in
the summer time. I have to shut the shade to keep algae growth down
in the aquarium.
Joerg
Are you 100% sure you are still on US soil?
--
SCNR, Joerg
Tim Williams
news:7oiv93F...@mid.individual.net...
>>>>> Now how does the sun get to the _north_ of your house? Did they move
>>>>> Arizona south of the equator? Habla Espanol por ahora?
>>>> You don't understand summer/winter tilt ?:-)
>>>
>>> Umm, Phoenix is 33N. The highest latitude where the sun would be
>>> overhead (Winter solstice) is 23.5N.
>>
>> the summer time. I have to shut the shade to keep algae growth down
>> in the aquarium.
>
> Are you 100% sure you are still on US soil?
Quite sure. It happens here too (about 45�N). Quite common to see the sun
shining through north windows in the morning and evening.
Why, are you 100% sure you are still in Central America, where this effect
doesn't occur? ;-)
Tim
--
Deep Friar: a very philosophical monk.
Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms
Jim Thompson
wrote:
>Jim Thompson wrote:
>> On Sat, 12 Dec 2009 18:22:15 -0600, krw <k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 12 Dec 2009 16:42:43 -0700, Jim Thompson
>>> <To-Email-Use-Th...@My-Web-Site.com/Snicker> wrote:
>>>
>>> Umm, Phoenix is 33N. The highest latitude where the sun would be
>>> overhead (Winter solstice) is 23.5N.
>>>
>>> If by not much you mean -10degrees. ;-)
>>>
>>> OTOH, at higher latitudes the summer sun rises/sets quite far to the
>>> north of due east/west.
>>
>> Well, the Sun DOES come in the north-side windows in late afternoon in
>> the summer time. I have to shut the shade to keep algae growth down
>> in the aquarium.
>>
>
>Are you 100% sure you are still on US soil?
100 miles north of Mexican border.
krw
<To-Email-Use-Th...@My-Web-Site.com/Snicker> wrote:
>On Sat, 12 Dec 2009 17:45:06 -0800, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
>wrote:
>
>>Jim Thompson wrote:
>>> On Sat, 12 Dec 2009 18:22:15 -0600, krw <k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 12 Dec 2009 16:42:43 -0700, Jim Thompson
>>>> <To-Email-Use-Th...@My-Web-Site.com/Snicker> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Umm, Phoenix is 33N. The highest latitude where the sun would be
>>>> overhead (Winter solstice) is 23.5N.
>>>>
>>>> If by not much you mean -10degrees. ;-)
>>>>
>>>> OTOH, at higher latitudes the summer sun rises/sets quite far to the
>>>> north of due east/west.
>>>
>>> Well, the Sun DOES come in the north-side windows in late afternoon in
>>> the summer time. I have to shut the shade to keep algae growth down
>>> in the aquarium.
>>>
>>
>>Are you 100% sure you are still on US soil?
>
>100 miles north of Mexican border.
How can you tell? :-(
Michael A. Terrell
The mexicans are all heading north. :)
--
Offworld checks no longer accepted!
Phil Hobbs
Above the Arctic Circle, the Sun gets round to due north in the summer.
The wonders of spherical trigonometry. ;)
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal
ElectroOptical Innovations
55 Orchard Rd
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058
hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net
Joerg
Yeah, I have a client up there. But Jim's place doesn't get quite this
cold :-)
--
Regards, Joerg