Art of Electronics, 3rd edition ?
Bob Engelhardt
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
> Last I heard, it was targeted for early 2010. Any recent news? Bob
Last I heard it was due out last millennium.
--
Dirk
http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
http://www.theconsensus.org/ - A UK political party
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/onetribe - Occult Talk Show
Martin Riddle
"Bob Engelhardt" <bobeng...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:hi3eq...@news3.newsguy.com...
> Last I heard, it was targeted for early 2010. Any recent news? Bob
Hill has been strangely absent for some time, working hard on it I
guess.
Cheers
Archimedes' Lever
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
Nice to have a PDF to go with the book, but I really prefer hard copy as
reference material
Archimedes' Lever
<dirk....@gmail.com> wrote:
>Archimedes' Lever wrote:
>> On Wed, 6 Jan 2010 23:37:19 -0500, "Martin Riddle"
>> <marti...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "Bob Engelhardt" <bobeng...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>> news:hi3eq...@news3.newsguy.com...
>>>> Last I heard, it was targeted for early 2010. Any recent news? Bob
>>> Hill has been strangely absent for some time, working hard on it I
>>> guess.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _http://isohunt.com/torrent_details/134228185/art+of+electronics?tab=summary
>
>Nice to have a PDF to go with the book, but I really prefer hard copy as
>reference material
look at this list:
_http://isohunt.com/torrent_details/39940146/art+of+electronics?tab=summary
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
A real academic crime wave.
However, I suppose it might be tempting for a poverty stricken student,
but reading scanned pages on a computer is crap. I don't know about the
other books, but the AoE in PDF is worse than photocopies.
Archimedes' Lever
<dirk....@gmail.com> wrote:
>but reading scanned pages on a computer is crap.
I doubt that ANY of those are scanned.
You can buy most of those books in that format.
Archimedes' Lever
<dirk....@gmail.com> wrote:
>Archimedes' Lever wrote:
>> On Thu, 07 Jan 2010 04:59:38 +0000, Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
>> <dirk....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Archimedes' Lever wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 6 Jan 2010 23:37:19 -0500, "Martin Riddle"
>>>> <marti...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "Bob Engelhardt" <bobeng...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:hi3eq...@news3.newsguy.com...
>>>>>> Last I heard, it was targeted for early 2010. Any recent news? Bob
>>>>> Hill has been strangely absent for some time, working hard on it I
>>>>> guess.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> _http://isohunt.com/torrent_details/134228185/art+of+electronics?tab=summary
>>> Nice to have a PDF to go with the book, but I really prefer hard copy as
>>> reference material
>>
>> look at this list:
>> _http://isohunt.com/torrent_details/39940146/art+of+electronics?tab=summary
>
>A real academic crime wave.
>However, I suppose it might be tempting for a poverty stricken student,
>but reading scanned pages on a computer is crap. I don't know about the
>other books, but the AoE in PDF is worse than photocopies.
Hey, I just did a google hunt, I don't make the files.
Nico Coesel
Or not. With every delay new stuff gets invented that should go in
there and other stuff is obsolete. Besides with all the information on
the internet you don't really need a book like AoE anyway.
--
Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply
indicates you are not using the right tools...
nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
--------------------------------------------------------------
D from BC
wrote:
>"Martin Riddle" <marti...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>"Bob Engelhardt" <bobeng...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>news:hi3eq...@news3.newsguy.com...
>>> Last I heard, it was targeted for early 2010. Any recent news? Bob
>>
>>Hill has been strangely absent for some time, working hard on it I
>>guess.
>
>Or not. With every delay new stuff gets invented that should go in
>there and other stuff is obsolete. Besides with all the information on
>the internet you don't really need a book like AoE anyway.
I spotted AoE in a library years ago. I was flipping though and was
thinking. 'yup..yup..yup..know that..know that.. yup...done that..
yup..seen that.. yup.. don't need to know that...don't need to know
that too.. yup.. that ol circuit...yup..unlikely I'll ever use
that..'. .
At the time for that book version ~1998, I found it an interesting
book to quickly flip through to spark the imaginary and to jog the
memory.
I'd read AoE on boring airline flights.
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
> "Martin Riddle" <marti...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> "Bob Engelhardt" <bobeng...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:hi3eq...@news3.newsguy.com...
>>> Last I heard, it was targeted for early 2010. Any recent news? Bob
>> Hill has been strangely absent for some time, working hard on it I
>> guess.
>
> Or not. With every delay new stuff gets invented that should go in
> there and other stuff is obsolete. Besides with all the information on
> the internet you don't really need a book like AoE anyway.
By that reasoning, you don't need any technical book or textbook, ever.
All one has to do is sort through the zillions of web pages, discard the
crap (whatever that is), and then memorize the data.
Tim Williams
Note: "discard the crap (whatever that is)" is tempered with actual
on-the-bench experience.
I honestly don't have many books. I learned the basics from a few, a whole
hell of a lot more from the bench, and the rest I look up on the internet.
Tim
--
Deep Friar: a very philosophical monk.
Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms
"Dirk Bruere at NeoPax" <dirk....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7qnljk...@mid.individual.net...
Jan Panteltje
<tmor...@charter.net> wrote in <hi6ah1$jgf$1...@news.eternal-september.org>:
>I've done remarkably well for myself that way.
>
>Note: "discard the crap (whatever that is)" is tempered with actual
>on-the-bench experience.
>
>I honestly don't have many books. I learned the basics from a few, a whole
>hell of a lot more from the bench, and the rest I look up on the internet.
>
>Tim
It depends where you start.
If you have already an education in electronics and perhaps also math,
yes then you can get most of the web, and filter the crap automatically.
If you are a kid and know little about the stuff, you will be lost.
You can still learn from projects that you build from diagrams you find, though.
In the old days there were the hobby magazines, not sure many still exists,
we had 'Radio Electronica' and Elektuur' in the Netherlands, same as 'Elector' I think.
There was 'Wireless World', and some more, 'Radio Bulletin', what not.
Do any of these still exist? Elector does I think.
I simply never go to a bookshop or newsstand these days:-)
Even the news is electronically, with a much broader spectrum then the old local news paper had.
Go short on printing presses...
LOL
Usenet also helps, lots of people will help you and point out your errors.
I do not have AOE, maybe if it appears as free downloadable pdf I will have a look.
Already noticed some pages of it are on google.
Interesting.
Rich Webb
<pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
[snippety snip]
>In the old days there were the hobby magazines, not sure many still exists,
>we had 'Radio Electronica' and Elektuur' in the Netherlands, same as 'Elector' I think.
>There was 'Wireless World', and some more, 'Radio Bulletin', what not.
>Do any of these still exist? Elector does I think.
Indeed. They're teaming up with Circuit Cellar, to give Elektor a
presence over here and also for CC over in the EC.
http://www.circuitcellar.com/archives/priorityinterrupt/234.html
--
Rich Webb Norfolk, VA
Jan Panteltje
<bbe...@mapson.nozirev.ten> wrote in
<d8jek5tcv0dtfmdo0...@4ax.com>:
Interesting, I was an avid Elektor (then Elektuur) in the long ago past.
they had many fun projects, and sometimes use the latest chips,
sure have picked up ideas from that.
They also had once a year a magazine with nothing but circuits in it.
Some of those were jokes too.
But nevertheless it will likely all go online only.
Just to save trees.
And then you do not have to wait a month before the corrections...
'Het lek van Elektuur', the errata so to speak.
Nico Coesel
>On a sunny day (Thu, 7 Jan 2010 21:58:23 -0600) it happened "Tim Williams"
><tmor...@charter.net> wrote in <hi6ah1$jgf$1...@news.eternal-september.org>:
>
>>I've done remarkably well for myself that way.
>>
>>Note: "discard the crap (whatever that is)" is tempered with actual
>>on-the-bench experience.
>>
>>I honestly don't have many books. I learned the basics from a few, a whole
>>hell of a lot more from the bench, and the rest I look up on the internet.
>>
>>Tim
>
>
>It depends where you start.
>If you have already an education in electronics and perhaps also math,
>yes then you can get most of the web, and filter the crap automatically.
>If you are a kid and know little about the stuff, you will be lost.
>You can still learn from projects that you build from diagrams you find, though.
>
>In the old days there were the hobby magazines, not sure many still exists,
>we had 'Radio Electronica' and Elektuur' in the Netherlands, same as 'Elector' I think.
>There was 'Wireless World', and some more, 'Radio Bulletin', what not.
>Do any of these still exist? Elector does I think.
Elektor/Elektuur still exists. They publish just as many crap circuits
as you can find on the internet. The basic rule is: if you don't
understand how a circuit works don't build it! Otherwise you'll get
burned sooner or later.
>I do not have AOE, maybe if it appears as free downloadable pdf I will have a look.
That would be a waste of time IMHO. AoE just doesn't cut it. To high
level for beginners and too low level for designers. I'd recommend AoE
to an R&D manager like Dilbert's boss.
pimpom
I subscribed to the Indian edition of the English version of
Elektor until they stopped publishing the Indian edition some 10
years ago. I consider the web to be a complement to books, not a
complete substitute. The web is great for looking up specific
bits of information, but not that great as a general reference.
I used to do a lot of repair work in the past - on consumer,
medical and industrial products. More often than not, I had to
work on products I'd never seen before or, in many cases, even
heard of. The few times a schematic is available, I find the
European style of presenting diagrams very inconvenient. I mean
the habit of putting only a small section of the whole thing on
one page, making it necessary to hunt for the page where line D37
goes. It may be OK for a company-trained service engineer who
already has a good overall familiarity with the product, but not
for someone trying to figure out how the damn thing works. I
liken the web to those European-style diagrams.
Jan Panteltje
<pim...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <hi80s2$c0v$1...@news.albasani.net>:
>I subscribed to the Indian edition of the English version of
>Elektor until they stopped publishing the Indian edition some 10
>years ago. I consider the web to be a complement to books, not a
>complete substitute. The web is great for looking up specific
>bits of information, but not that great as a general reference.
>
>I used to do a lot of repair work in the past - on consumer,
>medical and industrial products. More often than not, I had to
>work on products I'd never seen before or, in many cases, even
>heard of. The few times a schematic is available, I find the
>European style of presenting diagrams very inconvenient. I mean
>the habit of putting only a small section of the whole thing on
>one page, making it necessary to hunt for the page where line D37
>goes. It may be OK for a company-trained service engineer who
>already has a good overall familiarity with the product, but not
>for someone trying to figure out how the damn thing works. I
>liken the web to those European-style diagrams.
Well, I remember a training I had with Ampex in Germany for one of their video machines.
I had to weight in the hand luggage, for the flight: 15 kg of books, for ONE machine.
There is no way you can get everything on one page for complicated circuits.
What you need in such a case is big block diagrams (fold out),
time to study those, and then diagrams for each individual block.
And then diagrams for parts of each individual block,
I am used to that sort of stuff.
I remember the first real work day at the TV studio,
now THAT is a lot of equipment that I had to fix in zero time,
because 'black' on the network after a few seconds upsets millions, and people get pissed...
My boss told me: 'I am going to lunch, call me if anything comes up you cannot handle'.
Something came up, I called him, better that then black.
He asked 'What?", and I told him: I know how to do this,
but *where* are the cables (needed to rewire some connections, old days, toooobes).
'Oh', he said: Opened the floor boars somewhere, 'here!'
That is the only time I called for help, the first day.
But we had had months of training full time in the school banks before that.
He asked: 'Did you not pay attention when that was explained by so and so?".
I gave some lame excuse...
Now I probably did not, digging up cables from under the floor was not that interesting to me.
Funny place, you needed to be stress resistant.
You also needed to be very very good at electronics and human interactions.
Nice times.
J.A. Legris
> "Bob Engelhardt" <bobengelha...@comcast.net> wrote in message
Maybe he's just fed up with Jim Thompson and his band of idiots.
They've destroyed this N.G.
--
Joe
xray
So true. The lunatics are running the asylum.
I used to monitor the group to learn, and occasionally share, but things
became very ugly when Jim went psycho between 9/11 and the 2004
elections.
He's obviously a corrupting influence here, but he doesn't want for gang
members and lap dogs who contribute to the decline of this group. I can
only tolerate a quick browse through here now, once every few months,
and that is usually hard to stomach.
I remember Win trying to have reasonable discussions but Jim being an
insulting asshole of megalomaniacal proportions, as he predictably is to
anyone who doesn't buy into his peculiar world view. Perhaps he was
snubbed by elitist Bostonian weenies back when he was young and barely
out of the hills of West Virginia (or was it Kentucky, I forget) and he
still holds a grudge.
Jim has appointed himself the Rupert Murdoch of SED except that he is
also like a Glen Bleck or Rush Limbarf, front-line, thug / dancing
clown.
It feels like a 50's or 60's high school movie where the delinquents are
controlling the school, except our disruptive rebels average out in
their 60's age wise. Arrgh!
Little wonder we haven't seen anyone as decent and sensible as Win
around here anymore. As a Bob Dylan lyric once said, "Anyone with any
sense had already left town."
P.S., On this pass through, I did stumble on an interesting link that
pointed me at help toward a solution to something that I was looking
for. It's nice that there still are a percentage of on-topic posts that
get a bit of good discussion before they take off on some orthogonal
tangent.
And there are quite a number of people still hanging out here who
maintain a high level of purpose and sanity. Kudos to you!
Even many of the rebel rumblers also post good stuff between the OT
episodes. Don't let the Off-Topic devils tempt you. There are other
places to exorcise or exercise your demons. Remember back to when you
were innocent witnesses of the circuits and physics. My brethren, come
back to the electromagnetic and photon flow. Cast off the politics and
egotistical ramblings. Call not your brother a leftist weenie nor a tea
bagging nazi. Let logic, rationality and common decency once again come
to the fore.
It's for our mutual health. Try to care. Weather the storm, be it hot or
cold. (A lame parting shot, perhaps. Wrong. Forgive me.)
Stephan Goldstein
Well said, thank you.
Some time ago I posted something about this problem, though not
nearly so eloquent. One of the replies I received, from one of the
frequent offenders, was that "he answered a lot of questions here,
so it was OK" or something to that effect. It was as if he felt he'd
paid his monthly dues and was thus entitled to waste whatever
bandwidth he wanted.
I don't look at it that way. Rather I think of this as a community
of folks who agreed, but their presence here, to discuss issues of
electronic design. Apparently I'm way too much of an idealist.
Sigh.
Back to mostly lurking and answering the occasional questions that
fall within my areas of expertise.
Steve
There are no pork products in my real email address.
Jim Thompson
xray, Legris, and Riddle have been on my no-retrieve-list for years,
so I'm just now seeing this diatribe.
WHEN have these birds EVER posted a circuit or solution?
I'm disappointed in you, Steve :-(
Being politically correct, following the messiah blindly, DOES NOT
MAKE YOU A GOOD CIRCUIT DESIGNER.
Stephan Goldstein
True, but I have yet to find a circumstance when politicial posts
have improved my design skills.
I will say no more on this topic.
Jim Thompson
<sgol...@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>On Sat, 09 Jan 2010 09:04:02 -0700, Jim Thompson
><To-Email-Use-Th...@My-Web-Site.com/Snicker> wrote:
>
[snip]
>>
>>xray, Legris, and Riddle have been on my no-retrieve-list for years,
>>so I'm just now seeing this diatribe.
>>
>>WHEN have these birds EVER posted a circuit or solution?
>>
>>I'm disappointed in you, Steve :-(
>>
>>Being politically correct, following the messiah blindly, DOES NOT
>>MAKE YOU A GOOD CIRCUIT DESIGNER.
>
>True, but I have yet to find a circumstance when politicial posts
>have improved my design skills.
>
>I will say no more on this topic.
You would restrict my freedom of speech?
Aren't my circuit responses dead-on accurate? (Except for an
occasional typo ?:-)
I'll stick strictly to circuits IF EVERYONE ELSE WILL ALSO DO SO. Of
course SED will then die, because there's rarely anything electronic
actually ever posted, and at that, they're so juvenile they should
have been posted in sci.electronics.basics
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
life imitates life
<sgol...@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
Well stated, sir.
StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
<To-Email-Use-Th...@My-Web-Site.com/Snicker> wrote:
> ...Jim Thompson
Arrogant asshole. By your own logic, You have become so juvenile that
you shouldn't post at all.
Jim Thompson
Tell me. How is it I ran Win Hill off? Seems to me it was Win Hill
who was _always_ spouting "W is an idiot".
Of course all of the above "authors" couldn't "design" anything they
couldn't copy from Win's compendium of copied circuits.
Michael A. Terrell
Jim Thompson wrote:
>
> On Sat, 09 Jan 2010 11:25:06 -0500, Stephan Goldstein
> <sgol...@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 09 Jan 2010 09:04:02 -0700, Jim Thompson
> ><To-Email-Use-Th...@My-Web-Site.com/Snicker> wrote:
> >
> [snip]
> >>
> >>xray, Legris, and Riddle have been on my no-retrieve-list for years,
> >>so I'm just now seeing this diatribe.
> >>
> >>WHEN have these birds EVER posted a circuit or solution?
> >>
> >>I'm disappointed in you, Steve :-(
> >>
> >>Being politically correct, following the messiah blindly, DOES NOT
> >>MAKE YOU A GOOD CIRCUIT DESIGNER.
> >
> >True, but I have yet to find a circumstance when politicial posts
> >have improved my design skills.
> >
> >I will say no more on this topic.
>
> You would restrict my freedom of speech?
>
> Aren't my circuit responses dead-on accurate? (Except for an
> occasional typo ?:-)
>
> I'll stick strictly to circuits IF EVERYONE ELSE WILL ALSO DO SO. Of
> course SED will then die, because there's rarely anything electronic
> actually ever posted, and at that, they're so juvenile they should
> have been posted in sci.electronics.basics
Sometimes I think we need a news:sci.electroincs.idiot newsgroup to
point some people to.
I notice these whiners never mention Dimbulb, Sloman or EEyore.
--
Greed is the root of all eBay.
Jim Thompson
Of course not. The dweebs need their messiahs to look up to... the
super dweebs need Win Hill ;-)
inv...@invalid.invalid
<To-Email-Use-Th...@My-Web-Site.com/Snicker> wrote:
--
THIS POSTING HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ELECTRONICS
WHERE ARE THE THOUGHT POLICE WHEN YOU NEED THEM?
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
Yeah.
He merely co-authored the best and most accessible general electronics
book for decades.
Archimedes' Lever
<To-Email-Use-Th...@My-Web-Site.com/Snicker> wrote:
Why don't you and Terrell get a room?
We don't need to see you licking each others' balls in the technical
groups.
krw
Yeah, Jim. Archimedes' Liar is getting jealous.
TheJoker
Thanks for the repost, idiot.
inv...@invalid.invalid
--
krw
You're welcome, Archimedes' Liar.
krw
Just like a fairy Demonicrat, wishing for the thought police.
Ralph Barone
tongues out at each other. I have killfiled everybody who seems to be
incapable of carrying on an adult conversation but the SNR on s.e.d
still seems lower than in many other newsgroups. A shame...
Phil Hobbs
> .... and yet another thread degenerates into 3rd graders sticking their
> tongues out at each other. I have killfiled everybody who seems to be
> incapable of carrying on an adult conversation but the SNR on s.e.d
> still seems lower than in many other newsgroups. A shame...
Well, we could talk about what an ideal electronics textbook would look
like. Some of the canonical ones are
Horowitz & Hill
Grey & Meyer
Ott
Morrison
The Radar Handbook
Zverev
Gardner's PLL book
Van der Ziel's book on noise
But they're all getting a bit long in the tooth. So if you could
commission the ideal one-volume electronics text, what would it look like?
I'd like a good strong section on transistors, showing how the device
physics interacts with the circuit design details. Old tube books, e.g.
Terman's, did a much better job at this than the modern ones seem to.
It could start from simple rule-of-thumb CB, CE, and CC designs and then
start going into progressively more detail, on things like saturation,
beta linearity, noise sources, and so forth. (That puzzle of Jim's from
last month about the sawtooth oscillator, for instance.)
That was a major weak point in H&H, which iirc Win said they'd done
something about for the third edition.
I think it's possible to do a really good job of this without a whole
lot of math--the interaction of diffusion and drift isn'd hard to
visualize. FETs could fit in there too, though apart from a fair number
of BF862s and the odd power MOS, I don't use a lot of discrete FETs.
What would everyone else like to see in there?
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal
ElectroOptical Innovations
55 Orchard Rd
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058
hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net
Jim Thompson
<pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>On 1/10/2010 1:39 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
>> .... and yet another thread degenerates into 3rd graders sticking their
>> tongues out at each other. I have killfiled everybody who seems to be
>> incapable of carrying on an adult conversation but the SNR on s.e.d
>> still seems lower than in many other newsgroups. A shame...
>
>Well, we could talk about what an ideal electronics textbook would look
>like. Some of the canonical ones are
>
>Horowitz & Hill
Used only to see what SED posters are referencing ;-)
>Grey & Meyer
Alvin B. Phillips
The whole SEEC series (Thornton, Searle, Pederson, Adler, Angelo)
Warner & Grung
>Ott
>Morrison
Don't know those two
>The Radar Handbook
Which one? MIT? I had Reintjes as a professor.
>Zverev
Where you learn to say, "There's got to be a better way" ;-)
>Gardner's PLL book
My first specialty book... also have the second edition
>Van der Ziel's book on noise
Motchenbacher & Fitchen
>
>But they're all getting a bit long in the tooth. So if you could
>commission the ideal one-volume electronics text, what would it look like?
>
>I'd like a good strong section on transistors, showing how the device
>physics interacts with the circuit design details. Old tube books, e.g.
>Terman's, did a much better job at this than the modern ones seem to.
>It could start from simple rule-of-thumb CB, CE, and CC designs and then
>start going into progressively more detail, on things like saturation,
>beta linearity, noise sources, and so forth. (That puzzle of Jim's from
>last month about the sawtooth oscillator, for instance.)
>
>That was a major weak point in H&H, which iirc Win said they'd done
>something about for the third edition.
>
>I think it's possible to do a really good job of this without a whole
>lot of math--the interaction of diffusion and drift isn'd hard to
>visualize. FETs could fit in there too, though apart from a fair number
>of BF862s and the odd power MOS, I don't use a lot of discrete FETs.
>
>What would everyone else like to see in there?
>
>Cheers
>
>Phil Hobbs
StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
<pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>But they're all getting a bit long in the tooth. So if you could
>commission the ideal one-volume electronics text, what would it look like?
Einstein said that 'we should not commit to memory anything that we can
look up in a book or table, as it clutters the mind.'
So keep them all in electronic, searchable format and stop crying about
the length of the tooth.
John Larkin
<pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
PHEMTs rock.
>
>What would everyone else like to see in there?
More real-life diode behavior stuff.
FPGAs.
More consideration of thermal issues and materials.
John
Phil Hobbs
> On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 14:39:39 -0500, Phil Hobbs
> <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>
>> On 1/10/2010 1:39 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
>>> .... and yet another thread degenerates into 3rd graders sticking their
>>> tongues out at each other. I have killfiled everybody who seems to be
>>> incapable of carrying on an adult conversation but the SNR on s.e.d
>>> still seems lower than in many other newsgroups. A shame...
>>
>> Well, we could talk about what an ideal electronics textbook would look
>> like. Some of the canonical ones are
>>
>> Horowitz& Hill
>> Ott
>> Morrison
>> The Radar Handbook
>> Zverev
>> Gardner's PLL book
>> Van der Ziel's book on noise
>>
>> But they're all getting a bit long in the tooth. So if you could
>> commission the ideal one-volume electronics text, what would it look like?
>>
>> I'd like a good strong section on transistors, showing how the device
>> physics interacts with the circuit design details. Old tube books, e.g.
>> Terman's, did a much better job at this than the modern ones seem to.
>> It could start from simple rule-of-thumb CB, CE, and CC designs and then
>> start going into progressively more detail, on things like saturation,
>> beta linearity, noise sources, and so forth. (That puzzle of Jim's from
>> last month about the sawtooth oscillator, for instance.)
>>
>> That was a major weak point in H&H, which iirc Win said they'd done
>> something about for the third edition.
>>
>> I think it's possible to do a really good job of this without a whole
>> lot of math--the interaction of diffusion and drift isn'd hard to
>> visualize. FETs could fit in there too, though apart from a fair number
>> of BF862s and the odd power MOS, I don't use a lot of discrete FETs.
>
> PHEMTs rock.
I have a few that I bought on spec. I'll have a whack at building
something out of them--maybe a FET probe.
>
>>
>> What would everyone else like to see in there?
>
>
> More real-life diode behavior stuff.
>
> FPGAs.
>
> More consideration of thermal issues and materials.
>
> John
>
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
> On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 14:39:39 -0500, Phil Hobbs
> <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>
>> On 1/10/2010 1:39 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
>>> .... and yet another thread degenerates into 3rd graders sticking their
>>> tongues out at each other. I have killfiled everybody who seems to be
>>> incapable of carrying on an adult conversation but the SNR on s.e.d
>>> still seems lower than in many other newsgroups. A shame...
>>
>> Well, we could talk about what an ideal electronics textbook would look
>> like. Some of the canonical ones are
>>
>
> Used only to see what SED posters are referencing ;-)
>
>
> Alvin B. Phillips
>
> The whole SEEC series (Thornton, Searle, Pederson, Adler, Angelo)
>
>
>> Ott
>> Morrison
>
> Don't know those two
>
>> The Radar Handbook
>
> Which one? MIT? I had Reintjes as a professor.
>
>> Zverev
>
> Where you learn to say, "There's got to be a better way" ;-)
Nah, I love Zverev.
>
>> Gardner's PLL book
>
> My first specialty book... also have the second edition
>
>> Van der Ziel's book on noise
>
> Motchenbacher& Fitchen
>
I have that one too, but Van der Ziel has this amazing way of teaching
all about device noise and fundamental noise sources that really makes
sense.
So, how about uncorking some good ones from 6 or 7 or 20 years ago?
Most of your NDAs must have expired by now.
Michael Robinson
"Jim Thompson" <To-Email-Use-Th...@My-Web-Site.com/Snicker>
wrote in message news:3obhk55fr0thbh0i5...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 09 Jan 2010 11:25:06 -0500, Stephan Goldstein
> <sgol...@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 09 Jan 2010 09:04:02 -0700, Jim Thompson
>><To-Email-Use-Th...@My-Web-Site.com/Snicker> wrote:
>>
> [snip]
>>>
>>>xray, Legris, and Riddle have been on my no-retrieve-list for years,
>>>so I'm just now seeing this diatribe.
>>>
>>>WHEN have these birds EVER posted a circuit or solution?
>>>
>>>I'm disappointed in you, Steve :-(
>>>
>>>Being politically correct, following the messiah blindly, DOES NOT
>>>MAKE YOU A GOOD CIRCUIT DESIGNER.
>>
>>True, but I have yet to find a circumstance when politicial posts
>>have improved my design skills.
>>
>>I will say no more on this topic.
>
> You would restrict my freedom of speech?
>
> Aren't my circuit responses dead-on accurate? (Except for an
> occasional typo ?:-)
>
> I'll stick strictly to circuits IF EVERYONE ELSE WILL ALSO DO SO. Of
> course SED will then die, because there's rarely anything electronic
> actually ever posted, and at that, they're so juvenile they should
> have been posted in sci.electronics.basics
>
> ...Jim Thompson
> --
Jim Thompson
<pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
Tables, tables and more tables ;-)
>
>>
>>> Gardner's PLL book
>>
>> My first specialty book... also have the second edition
>>
>>> Van der Ziel's book on noise
>>
>> Motchenbacher& Fitchen
>>
>I have that one too, but Van der Ziel has this amazing way of teaching
>all about device noise and fundamental noise sources that really makes
>sense.
Should I get a copy of van der Ziel? I'm always pressed to squeeze a
little lower NF out of some crappy process :-(
>
>
>So, how about uncorking some good ones from 6 or 7 or 20 years ago?
>Most of your NDAs must have expired by now.
>
>Cheers
>
>Phil Hobbs
I could do that. I did once before... poor reception... way over the
dweebs' heads. But I'll try.
Phil Hobbs
Van der Ziel wrote several books, starting in the 1950s. The one I have
is (I think) his last--"Noise in Solid State Devices and Circuits"
(Wiley, 1986). It's a great book, and focuses on the right thing--how
to calculate noise in circuits from first principles. It has things
like the dependence of BJT shot noise on high level injection, low and
high frequency noise of tunnel diodes, various kinds of FETs noise in
diode mixers, and a lot on 1/f noise.
I'd like to see some more of your stuff--I still want you to write a
book, remember--and the Tappet Brothers' "Stump the Chumps" is the best
part of the show. (Of course the joke is on them.) ;)
Jim Thompson
<pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>On 1/10/2010 4:30 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
>> On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 15:45:42 -0500, Phil Hobbs
>> <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>
[snip]
>>>
>>> So, how about uncorking some good ones from 6 or 7 or 20 years ago?
>>> Most of your NDAs must have expired by now.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> Phil Hobbs
>>
>> I could do that. I did once before... poor reception... way over the
>> dweebs' heads. But I'll try.
>>
>> ...Jim Thompson
>
>Van der Ziel wrote several books, starting in the 1950s. The one I have
>is (I think) his last--"Noise in Solid State Devices and Circuits"
>(Wiley, 1986). It's a great book, and focuses on the right thing--how
>to calculate noise in circuits from first principles. It has things
>like the dependence of BJT shot noise on high level injection, low and
>high frequency noise of tunnel diodes, various kinds of FETs noise in
>diode mixers, and a lot on 1/f noise.
>
>I'd like to see some more of your stuff--
OK. You've got it. Just did a final design/layout review for a chip
last Tuesday, so I have a slight breather. I'll look thru my archives
for "teasers" ;-)
(After I install a dishwasher tomorrow :-(
>I still want you to write a
>book, remember--and the Tappet Brothers' "Stump the Chumps" is the best
>part of the show. (Of course the joke is on them.) ;)
>
>Cheers
>
>Phil Hobbs
You mean Click 'n' Clack", http://www.cartalk.com/ ??
They're MIT grads also. My daughter, the water chemist, is one of
their best fans ;-)
YD
<dirk....@gmail.com> penned this immortal opus:
>Archimedes' Lever wrote:
>> On Thu, 07 Jan 2010 04:59:38 +0000, Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
>> <dirk....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Archimedes' Lever wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 6 Jan 2010 23:37:19 -0500, "Martin Riddle"
>>>> <marti...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "Bob Engelhardt" <bobeng...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:hi3eq...@news3.newsguy.com...
>>>>>> Last I heard, it was targeted for early 2010. Any recent news? Bob
>>>>> Hill has been strangely absent for some time, working hard on it I
>>>>> guess.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> _http://isohunt.com/torrent_details/134228185/art+of+electronics?tab=summary
>>> Nice to have a PDF to go with the book, but I really prefer hard copy as
>>> reference material
>>
>> look at this list:
>> _http://isohunt.com/torrent_details/39940146/art+of+electronics?tab=summary
>
>A real academic crime wave.
>However, I suppose it might be tempting for a poverty stricken student,
>but reading scanned pages on a computer is crap. I don't know about the
>other books, but the AoE in PDF is worse than photocopies.
It's out of print, and the second hand market doesn't generate revenue
for the author. So there's no loss if it's digitized and distributed.
- YD.
--
Remove HAT if replying by mail.
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
Then maybe H/H should consider Lulu.
JosephKK
>Jan Panteltje <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>On a sunny day (Thu, 7 Jan 2010 21:58:23 -0600) it happened "Tim Williams"
>><tmor...@charter.net> wrote in <hi6ah1$jgf$1...@news.eternal-september.org>:
>>
>>>I've done remarkably well for myself that way.
>>>
>>>Note: "discard the crap (whatever that is)" is tempered with actual
>>>on-the-bench experience.
>>>
>>>I honestly don't have many books. I learned the basics from a few, a whole
>>>hell of a lot more from the bench, and the rest I look up on the internet.
>>>
>>>Tim
>>
>>
>>It depends where you start.
>>If you have already an education in electronics and perhaps also math,
>>yes then you can get most of the web, and filter the crap automatically.
>>If you are a kid and know little about the stuff, you will be lost.
>>You can still learn from projects that you build from diagrams you find, though.
>>
>>In the old days there were the hobby magazines, not sure many still exists,
>>we had 'Radio Electronica' and Elektuur' in the Netherlands, same as 'Elector' I think.
>>There was 'Wireless World', and some more, 'Radio Bulletin', what not.
>>Do any of these still exist? Elector does I think.
>
>Elektor/Elektuur still exists. They publish just as many crap circuits
>as you can find on the internet. The basic rule is: if you don't
>understand how a circuit works don't build it! Otherwise you'll get
>burned sooner or later.
Once again you have missed the point. In this current world the experimenters should
build it and get burned, as experimenters. If a professional presented
such a circuit as their design without thinking they deserve the results
that they will most likely get.
To help clarify, the hobbyist magazines should present circuits that work
adequately, but easily can be improved. The idea is to encourage experimentation,
and some resultant discovery.
Discovering stuff for yourself is a powerful and seductive mental process.
>
>>I do not have AOE, maybe if it appears as free downloadable pdf I will have a look.
>
>That would be a waste of time IMHO. AoE just doesn't cut it. To high
>level for beginners and too low level for designers. I'd recommend AoE
>to an R&D manager like Dilbert's boss.