A question for management types.
o...@uakron.edu
question keeps bugging me.
Do HR types score points for scheduling interviews for nothing? Is it
a tax write off to do interviews?
Is there a new federal/state requirement to interview a bunch of
candidates when you already know who you want? Because I've traveled
to two interviews that were a total waste of time for both sides.
While I
consider them good practice, Its getting annoying.
When I worked at the university, it was interview at least four
candidates by state law, but for a private entity I've never seen that
rule.
I did take the time to run the resume past a professional resume
type.
As my best friend said , at least your getting interviews.....
I know times are hard, but why would HR just go fishing without
bait?
Steve
John Larkin
Bogus interviews are often part of the process of hiring non-citizens.
One has to go through the ritual of advertising for US citizens,
interviewing a few, and finding no suitable candidates before
submitting the paperwork for hiring a foreigner and getting him/her a
green card.
Lawyers are available to assist in the entire process.
John
mi...@sushi.com
The key to seeing a bogus green-card related job is the salary being
included in the ad. At one place where I worked, we would interview
the suckers for the fake green-card jobs on Saturday, so the rest of
the staff wouldn't see them. You would think a person applying for a
job which states the salary and has Saturday interviews would figure
out the job doesn't really exist.
Frithiof Jensen
<o...@uakron.edu> skrev i meddelelsen
news:902d1975-837a-45d0...@r2g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
> As I'm going around town and several states handing out resumes, A
> question keeps bugging me.
> Do HR types score points for scheduling interviews for nothing? Is it
> a tax write off to do interviews?
Whenever an organisation uses performance measurements delivering the rigth
measurements becomes the purpose of the organisation; i.e. maybe the
HR-people has a target figure of X interviews per week ....
In any case, the "Human Ressource" concept sort of gives the game away does
it not? A ressource is something that is exploited for profit until there is
nothing left and a replacement must be found.
> Is there a new federal/state requirement to interview a bunch of
> candidates when you already know who you want?
In public service there most certainly is - In private sector there may be
f.ex. "diversity in the workplace"-crap requiring HR to document that they
really tried to hire according to the diversity targets before they had to
give up and just hire the most competent applicant (or their brothers
consultancy or whatever).
> I know times are hard, but why would HR just go fishing without
> bait?
Same as ever: To justify their existence and get more ressorces allocated
since they are so overburdened with "work".
Jim Thompson
It's to avoid any racial bias suits.
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine Sometimes I even put it in the food
o...@uakron.edu
No Saturday interviews so far, and in one case on a Monday morning
interview the foreigner came in right behind me. Since they network
and pool resources and don't mind having sixty-two of themselves in a
apartment, I guess they can make it on 20K a year.
A easy way to tell seems to be when they have a committee doing the
interview, to spread out the liability, with scripted questions.
Oh well, still good practice. I suspect a real interview will take
less then 10 minutes.
Best wishes for a new year,
Steve
krw
681702...@r22g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>, o...@uakron.edu says...>
>
> No Saturday interviews so far, and in one case on a Monday morning
> interview the foreigner came in right behind me. Since they network
> and pool resources and don't mind having sixty-two of themselves in a
> apartment, I guess they can make it on 20K a year.
Saturday interviews? Why would anyone hold them? Can you make it
without a job?
> A easy way to tell seems to be when they have a committee doing the
> interview, to spread out the liability, with scripted questions.
Any non-scripted questions are an invitation to court. If everyone
isn't asked the exact same questions, properly vetted by the HR and
legal departments, of course, they'll be eaten alive in a
courtroom. Sharp interviewers won't ask technical questions at
all. ...any more than a psychologist will ask physiology
questions.
> Oh well, still good practice. I suspect a real interview will take
> less then 10 minutes.
I never had a "real" interview take only 10 minutes. Even phone
interviews were normally a half hour or so. A half-day was normal
on-site, though one had me sit in on a design review in the
afternoon. Got an offer from that one, too, but HR blew it.
> Best wishes for a new year,
Good luck and happy hunting.
mi...@sushi.com
The foreign worker that wants the green card is already working at
that place of employment. The foreigner you met on the job interview
is trying to get a job on H1B status.
The job of the person trying to get the green card is (should) also be
posted in a conspicuous location at the workplace. It causes lots of
fun because it is not rocket science to figure out whose job is being
advertised. You should note that the job adverts are very detailed,
i.e. tuned to that person's job. The idea is to make that suckers that
show up appear not to be qualified.
Some companies have a particular ethnic slant that they try to fill
with H1B and eventually green cards. Exar would hire Turks because of
Alan Greenbenie (sp), Atmel hired Greeks due to the Perlegos brothers,
etc. Eventually this crap catches up with the companies since they get
a pile of inferior employees that are more concerned with covering
their countrymen's arses rather than getting work done.
mi...@sushi.com
>
> I love to cook with wine Sometimes I even put it in the food
They usually cover that base with a special "minority job fair."
Rich Grise
> On Thu, 1 Jan 2009 19:48:30 -0800 (PST), o...@uakron.edu wrote:
>
>> As I'm going around town and several states handing out resumes, A
>>question keeps bugging me.
>>Do HR types score points for scheduling interviews for nothing? Is it a
>>tax write off to do interviews?
...
> Bogus interviews are often part of the process of hiring non-citizens. One
> has to go through the ritual of advertising for US citizens, interviewing
> a few, and finding no suitable candidates before submitting the paperwork
> for hiring a foreigner and getting him/her a green card.
>
> Lawyers are available to assist in the entire process.
Right. You're between jobs, making $0.00/hour - you're supposed to hire a
lawyer for $250.00/hour?
Not today, I think.
Thanks,
Rich
RST Engineering (jw)
news:pan.2009.01.02....@example.net...
>> Bogus interviews are often part of the process of hiring non-citizens.
>> One
>> has to go through the ritual of advertising for US citizens, interviewing
>> a few, and finding no suitable candidates before submitting the paperwork
>> for hiring a foreigner and getting him/her a green card.
>>
>> Lawyers are available to assist in the entire process.
>
> Right. You're between jobs, making $0.00/hour - you're supposed to hire a
> lawyer for $250.00/hour?
>
> Not today, I think.
I think perhaps you didn't understand, Rich. The lawyers are available to
MANAGEMENT to make sure that they cover their hineys with the bogus
interviews so that "no suitable candidates" is the legally defensible
position.
Jim
Joerg
> In article <d7b8afcc-4245-458e-9e53-
> 681702...@r22g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>, o...@uakron.edu says...>
>> You guys have confirmed my suspicions.
>>
>> No Saturday interviews so far, and in one case on a Monday morning
>> interview the foreigner came in right behind me. Since they network
>> and pool resources and don't mind having sixty-two of themselves in a
>> apartment, I guess they can make it on 20K a year.
>
> Saturday interviews? Why would anyone hold them? Can you make it
> without a job?
>
>> A easy way to tell seems to be when they have a committee doing the
>> interview, to spread out the liability, with scripted questions.
>
> Any non-scripted questions are an invitation to court. If everyone
> isn't asked the exact same questions, properly vetted by the HR and
> legal departments, of course, they'll be eaten alive in a
> courtroom. Sharp interviewers won't ask technical questions at
> all. ...
Huh? Nobody would have gotten a job at my previous place without a tech
chat. I wanted to know whether they could really design an RF amp off
the cuff. If not, no job.
[...]
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.
Joerg
> As I'm going around town and several states handing out resumes, A
> question keeps bugging me.
> Do HR types score points for scheduling interviews for nothing? Is it
> a tax write off to do interviews?
No, I can't imagine that.
> Is there a new federal/state requirement to interview a bunch of
> candidates when you already know who you want? Because I've traveled
> to two interviews that were a total waste of time for both sides.
> While I
> consider them good practice, Its getting annoying.
>
Minority employment requirements can trigger that but only if you are
part of a minority. I personally do not like that word much because it
categorizes people and people should not be categorized.
> When I worked at the university, it was interview at least four
> candidates by state law, but for a private entity I've never seen that
> rule.
>
As others have said it is required if they found an immigrant whom they
really want.
> I did take the time to run the resume past a professional resume
> type.
>
> As my best friend said , at least your getting interviews.....
>
> I know times are hard, but why would HR just go fishing without
> bait?
>
I've only worked at smaller companies. I cannot remember a single case
where I (or the hiring manager) did not speak to a candidate before even
inviting them for an interview. HR did not have a say in this, neither
did they pre-screen except for weeding out resumes with really bad
typos. The main reason was that we did not want to waste our time or the
candidate's time. So if you did not have a phone chat with your future
boss and still get invited for an interview that would be a bit
suspicious IMHO.
John Larkin
No, the employer generally pays the lawyer. I did this once: I had an
engineer who was here on a student visa, and we decided he'd work for
us full-time if I could get him a green card. I spent about $7K on
legal fees (which is cheap, as I understand it) and went through the
rituals and eventually got him the card. The day it arrived, he held
it up and yelled "I'm out of here!" and left.
He subsequently got mad when he learned he wouldn't get a bonus or a
401K contribution after he left. So he called Autocad and told them we
were kiting their software, which wasn't true, and then the Autocad
lawyers took after us.
So, lessons learned: no more green cards, and no more Autocad
products.
John
John Larkin
>
>Any non-scripted questions are an invitation to court. If everyone
>isn't asked the exact same questions, properly vetted by the HR and
>legal departments, of course, they'll be eaten alive in a
>courtroom. Sharp interviewers won't ask technical questions at
>all. ...any more than a psychologist will ask physiology
>questions.
Last guy I hired, I flew him (and his s.o.) in for a few days to look
the town over. I spent almost one full day with him *designing* a real
product together.
How else could you evaluate a design engineer?
John
Richard The Dreaded Libertarian
> o...@uakron.edu wrote:
>> As I'm going around town and several states handing out resumes, A
>> question keeps bugging me.
>> Do HR types score points for scheduling interviews for nothing? Is it a
>> tax write off to do interviews?
>
> No, I can't imagine that.
>
>> Is there a new federal/state requirement to interview a bunch of
>> candidates when you already know who you want? Because I've traveled to
>> two interviews that were a total waste of time for both sides. While I
>> consider them good practice, Its getting annoying.
>>
> Minority employment requirements can trigger that but only if you are part
> of a minority. I personally do not like that word much because it
> categorizes people and people should not be categorized.
>
numbers, when Whites are outnumbered by the "minorities", will we be
eligible for all the handouts and preferential treatment that the other
"minorities" get?
Thanks,
Rich
krw
$7K isn't bad. A headhunter costs far more. I wonder if you could
add that into an employment contract as many employers do with
relocation costs.
>He subsequently got mad when he learned he wouldn't get a bonus or a
>401K contribution after he left. So he called Autocad and told them we
>were kiting their software, which wasn't true, and then the Autocad
>lawyers took after us.
I hope he never looks for a reference. That is just *dumb*.
>So, lessons learned: no more green cards, and no more Autocad
>products.
The first is a pretty broad brush (though there are other reasons to
avoid that hassle). The second, is quite understandable. I spent 35
years avoiding Miller products over a $150 check. I figure the payback
was pretty big. ;-)
krw
<notthis...@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
>krw wrote:
>> In article <d7b8afcc-4245-458e-9e53-
>> 681702...@r22g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>, o...@uakron.edu says...>
>>> You guys have confirmed my suspicions.
>>>
>>> No Saturday interviews so far, and in one case on a Monday morning
>>> interview the foreigner came in right behind me. Since they network
>>> and pool resources and don't mind having sixty-two of themselves in a
>>> apartment, I guess they can make it on 20K a year.
>>
>> Saturday interviews? Why would anyone hold them? Can you make it
>> without a job?
>>
>>> A easy way to tell seems to be when they have a committee doing the
>>> interview, to spread out the liability, with scripted questions.
>>
>> Any non-scripted questions are an invitation to court. If everyone
>> isn't asked the exact same questions, properly vetted by the HR and
>> legal departments, of course, they'll be eaten alive in a
>> courtroom. Sharp interviewers won't ask technical questions at
>> all. ...
>
>
>Huh? Nobody would have gotten a job at my previous place without a tech
>chat. I wanted to know whether they could really design an RF amp off
>the cuff. If not, no job.
Tech chat is quite different than asking questions. The general form
goes something like...
"Tell me about yourself".
"Tell me what projects you've done".
"What were your responsibilities"
"What problems did you face and how did you solve them"
...with emphasis on "you", of couse, and perhaps *some* detailed
questions about the candidate's design, always framed as curiousity
about the circuit rather than the theory.
If it looks like an exam your lawyer may be in for a lot of work.
krw
That's a perfect way to do it, though the risk may be in "employment"
without compensation. Dunno.
>How else could you evaluate a design engineer?
That certainly works. Participation in a design review works too. It
gives the candidate a feel for the group, too. I had a lot of fun (as
I generally do).
BTW, I did get asked technical questions on the interview for my
current job. They were all analog (no one knew enough to ask any
digital questions past an AND gate ;) and my analog skills were pretty
rusty. I did fairly well, except where the other engineer asked me
the wrong question. I got the job, anyway. ...and have done no
digital designs yet. Not even an AND gate. ;-)
krw
Have you read the laws? Why do women have "minority" status?
Joel Koltner
news:6jgtl49jv57983132...@4ax.com...
> If it looks like an exam your lawyer may be in for a lot of work.
What's questionably legal/ethical about giving exams for job interviews?
Not that I'm suggesting that's always the way to go, just curious.
I have a friend who writes software whose initial job interview consisted of,
"Here's a PC running a little test program you've never seen before -- but
using Visual C++ and MFC, which your resume says your have experience with --
that has this particular bug in the GUI [described]. Please fix it while we
watch... try to be quick about it." It was only after he'd passed that "bench
test" that they went on to interviewing with a bug of their guys.
---Joel
krw
<zapwireD...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>"krw" <k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote in message
>news:6jgtl49jv57983132...@4ax.com...
>> If it looks like an exam your lawyer may be in for a lot of work.
>
>What's questionably legal/ethical about giving exams for job interviews?
I thought I was clear... If the exam isn't well regulated, as in
standardized and well tested, it's too easy to claim discrimination.
"He didn't get the same test I did, mommy." "My test was 'unfair."
>Not that I'm suggesting that's always the way to go, just curious.
I rather liked interviewing where I got to solve problems. I had a
lot of freedom that others may not, though.
>I have a friend who writes software whose initial job interview consisted of,
>"Here's a PC running a little test program you've never seen before -- but
>using Visual C++ and MFC, which your resume says your have experience with --
>that has this particular bug in the GUI [described]. Please fix it while we
>watch... try to be quick about it." It was only after he'd passed that "bench
>test" that they went on to interviewing with a bug of their guys.
Again, it's easy for a candidate to claim discrimination. To be fair,
it's easy to discriminate, as well. I *know* I was discriminated
against (thought it was funny, though my wife didn't see the humor
when I told her).
My point is that companies have to protect themselves or they *will*
find loser who will sue and an ambulance chaser who will gladly be the
enabler. That's why you see such crap from HR. In fact that's why it
exists at all.
Greegor
> As I'm going around town and several states handing out resumes, A
> question keeps bugging me.
> Do HR types score points for scheduling interviews for nothing? Is it
> a tax write off to do interviews?
> candidates when you already know who you want? Because I've traveled
> to two interviews that were a total waste of time for both sides.
> While I
> consider them good practice, Its getting annoying.
>
> candidates by state law, but for a private entity I've never seen that
> rule.
>
> type.
>
> As my best friend said , at least your getting interviews.....
>
> I know times are hard, but why would HR just go fishing without
> bait?
>
A few years ago a new company in my area
was such a big deal that it was headline news.
The news stories said they were going to hire
200 people immediately and many more
within 2 years.
But the news also directed people to job service
to apply. When I went to job service I noticed
that they didn't have job orders for even a fraction
of the numbers the news had announced.
They had THOUSANDS of applicants and
completely dead ended any direct appeal.
I came to the conclusion that they were after
a huge state/local employer tax exemption
and oversold their actual numbers.
Those tax exemptions and grants various
states offer to bring or keep jobs haven't
worked out as hoped, actually starting a
cycle where every time the terms run out
the companies move to obtain another
good deal somewhere else.
Some larger outfits seem to have become
addicted to this, or prostitute to the
short term perks/bribes each location can offer.
There are also complaints about how
many of these also pay substandard wages
and because of this location hopping they
do not contribute to the local/state economy
in a way that justifies the perks they got.
----
Sometimes a manager or exec
has their nephew or brother in law
in mind for the job.
Long ago I was a contract temp IT
in a large data center but when they
wanted to actually hire they told me that
I was out of the running because I
lacked one certain qualification.
The teen supervisor hired another teen
because they both owned expensive "dude cars".
I worked for another section of the same
company a few years later and a photo
of the other guy was attached to an article
in the company newsletter. He was written
up as the wunderkind who set up their web site.
I actually tried the public link to it and it was
BROKEN and stayed broken for some time.
I asked my boss about it and he laughed
pretty hard. Apparently the guy they hired
instead of me was the most HATED person
in the entire company, hated by every center
manager in the company! Nobody seemed
to know what kind of connections or "pull"
he had with the upper management but
eventually it wasn't enough when the
big collapse hit them.
Oh yeah, I almost forgot.
He didn't have the credential they firmly shut me out for! LOL
And his "dude car" and other overspending? Bankruptcy!
I laugh at people with fancy "dude cars"
showing off what a nice car the BANK OWNS!
----
Have you ever seen a job ad that firmly
requires 10 years of experience with
a product which had absolutely not
even existed for 3 years?
----
I've switched among several recurring types
of jobs over the years as advised by experts.
The very old "Guerilla Tactics in the Job Market"
while helpful, seems too optimistic in advising
job seekers to actively collect thousands of NO's
in search of the one yes.
For one thing, bargaining for pay doesn't work
so good that way, and you really don't want the
yes that offers substandard pay.
I had a job once in the early 80's where I
took substandard pay because of a JOB TITLE
as an Associate or Assistant Electrical Engineer.
It was a rinky dink outfit but they did do some
interesting engineering, had an RF cage and
did EMF and lightning strike supression.
They were retrofitting huge security systems
monitored by a PDP 8 or 11 to add transient
suppression. They built huge panels with
large numbers of TS modules they were building
themselves.
The modules were actually pretty good,
with gas tubes, picofuse, zener diode
and an inductor. I loved the lightning
simulator for destructive testing monitored
on a triggered storage scope!
Huge bank of HV capacitors were nowhere
near the energy of a real one but a few Joules
were enough to blast the guts out of the heroic
little transient suppressors and see HOW
they sacrificed themselves.
No room for error or shoddy safety precautions there.
But they found out I could do NASA
quality soldering and tapped me to help
with production soldering. Then they
put on a big push to produce a huge
number of the TS modules and pushed
for fast production rather than craftsmanship.
They hired human chickens to solder
lightning fast but then huge numbers of
modules failed catastrophically.
The end for me was when the HR lady
came around with papers for me to sign
that listed my job title as Electronics
Technician. I explained that I was not
expecting Engineer dollars but was in fact
hired as an Associate or Assistant Engineer.
I went to the man who hired me and he
told me to sign it. I reminded him that I
took the job on the condition that my
Job Title was Associate or Assistant Engineer,
not Electronics Technician.
He said sign it.
I said not if you're going to pull that kind
of crap! And I was out of there.
The point is that I took substandard pay in
exchange for a job title that would supposedly
help me get better pay later. But the person
who brokered the deal reneged on the bargain.
The whole company was gone within a year.
Vladimir Vassilevsky
"John Larkin" <jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in message
news:qi6tl4ta9uekghkl8...@4ax.com...
> I had an
> engineer who was here on a student visa, and we decided he'd work for
> us full-time if I could get him a green card. I spent about $7K on
> legal fees (which is cheap, as I understand it) and went through the
> rituals and eventually got him the card. The day it arrived, he held
> it up and yelled "I'm out of here!" and left.
>
> He subsequently got mad when he learned he wouldn't get a bonus or a
> 401K contribution after he left. So he called Autocad and told them we
> were kiting their software, which wasn't true, and then the Autocad
> lawyers took after us.
>
> So, lessons learned: no more green cards, and no more Autocad
> products.
Something does not connect here.
Since you hired him, this guy ought to be a good engineer and a decent
person. Why did he run away? The part about 401K bonus and autocad doesn't
make any sense at all. Perhaps there is a lesson in this story, but it
doesn't seem to be about green cards and autocads.
VLV
o...@uakron.edu
> Something does not connect here.
> Since you hired him, this guy ought to be a good engineer and a decent
> person. Why did he run away? The part about 401K bonus and autocad doesn't
> make any sense at all. Perhaps there is a lesson in this story, but it
> doesn't seem to be about green cards and autocads.
>
> VLV
Naw, I hit this working with the grad students, he came from a
"entitled" background. Its a cultural difference. Those folks
sometimes, but rarely, tend to expect it to carry over in their new
positions.
I once had to move a piece of machinery across campus to claim some
space before it was reassigned. Special services was way too busy
moving the arts and math sciences people to their new building, so I
elected to bring my personal trailer in, load the gear with grad
student help, and transport it the half mile or so. The gear in
question was say two hundred pounds, and well strapped down, so I
asked the Thai student to set on the open trailer and hold some
fragile cables, with no intention of exceeding about 2 miles a hour.
I know, I know, OSHA would be shocked, if this happened anywhere but a
farm.
The next line I heard,After he chuckled, "Was wow, this is
different". So I asked him why. Back home he said, " I would have a
manager with me, and a crew to do this, and I would be setting in a
pickup truck, with a driver, and be telling you what to do". He was
the second son, as such, was packed off to college and grad school to
be the spare heir in case something happened to number one son. He
understood it to be his duty to do well, and be far enough away as to
not interfere with number one. From then on out, he volunteered for a
lot of physical labor, provided no one was allowed to see him doing
"less dignified" work. He did remind me, "Steve, when my parents come
to visit, you do work for me , OK?"
But I had one or two from various cultures that didn't understand
that the professor expected me to facilitate their work, not DO it.
Steve
Joerg
> On Fri, 2 Jan 2009 18:14:26 -0800, "Joel Koltner"
> <zapwireD...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> "krw" <k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote in message
>> news:6jgtl49jv57983132...@4ax.com...
>>> If it looks like an exam your lawyer may be in for a lot of work.
>> What's questionably legal/ethical about giving exams for job interviews?
>
> I thought I was clear... If the exam isn't well regulated, as in
> standardized and well tested, it's too easy to claim discrimination.
> "He didn't get the same test I did, mommy." "My test was 'unfair."
>
Then they should IMHO not apply for a technical job. "Here we have the
schematic of an RF amp and we need some more bandwidth out of it. What
would you do?" If he/she didn't know, no dice. Very simple.
>> Not that I'm suggesting that's always the way to go, just curious.
>
> I rather liked interviewing where I got to solve problems. I had a
> lot of freedom that others may not, though.
>
>> I have a friend who writes software whose initial job interview consisted of,
>> "Here's a PC running a little test program you've never seen before -- but
>> using Visual C++ and MFC, which your resume says your have experience with --
>> that has this particular bug in the GUI [described]. Please fix it while we
>> watch... try to be quick about it." It was only after he'd passed that "bench
>> test" that they went on to interviewing with a bug of their guys.
>
> Again, it's easy for a candidate to claim discrimination. To be fair,
> it's easy to discriminate, as well. I *know* I was discriminated
> against (thought it was funny, though my wife didn't see the humor
> when I told her).
>
> My point is that companies have to protect themselves or they *will*
> find loser who will sue and an ambulance chaser who will gladly be the
> enabler. That's why you see such crap from HR. In fact that's why it
> exists at all.
Piece of cake. I've shredded lawyers and whole boards in mid air with
far more difficult stuff than that. The culmination was when one board
member showed up with a check, to make me go away.
krw
<notthis...@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
>krw wrote:
>> On Fri, 2 Jan 2009 18:14:26 -0800, "Joel Koltner"
>> <zapwireD...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> "krw" <k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote in message
>>> news:6jgtl49jv57983132...@4ax.com...
>>>> If it looks like an exam your lawyer may be in for a lot of work.
>>> What's questionably legal/ethical about giving exams for job interviews?
>>
>> I thought I was clear... If the exam isn't well regulated, as in
>> standardized and well tested, it's too easy to claim discrimination.
>> "He didn't get the same test I did, mommy." "My test was 'unfair."
>>
>
>Then they should IMHO not apply for a technical job. "Here we have the
>schematic of an RF amp and we need some more bandwidth out of it. What
>would you do?" If he/she didn't know, no dice. Very simple.
Come on! Be real. We're talking about (protection from) frivolous
law suits here.
>>> Not that I'm suggesting that's always the way to go, just curious.
>>
>> I rather liked interviewing where I got to solve problems. I had a
>> lot of freedom that others may not, though.
>>
>>> I have a friend who writes software whose initial job interview consisted of,
>>> "Here's a PC running a little test program you've never seen before -- but
>>> using Visual C++ and MFC, which your resume says your have experience with --
>>> that has this particular bug in the GUI [described]. Please fix it while we
>>> watch... try to be quick about it." It was only after he'd passed that "bench
>>> test" that they went on to interviewing with a bug of their guys.
>>
>> Again, it's easy for a candidate to claim discrimination. To be fair,
>> it's easy to discriminate, as well. I *know* I was discriminated
>> against (thought it was funny, though my wife didn't see the humor
>> when I told her).
>>
>> My point is that companies have to protect themselves or they *will*
>> find loser who will sue and an ambulance chaser who will gladly be the
>> enabler. That's why you see such crap from HR. In fact that's why it
>> exists at all.
>
>
>Piece of cake. I've shredded lawyers and whole boards in mid air with
>far more difficult stuff than that. The culmination was when one board
>member showed up with a check, to make me go away.
That's exactly the point. The board will *have to* show up with that
large check and give it to the "poor minority" who claimed "unfair".
That sort of thing is usually to be avoided. You don't tempt a bull
with a red flag.
Guy Macon
I have been to a few interviews where it was pretty clear that
they didn't have an actual opening, just on the basic principle
of keeping in practice, and a couple of times I have ended up
doing a later interview for a real position based on how well
I did at the fake interview.
--
Guy Macon
<http://www.GuyMacon.com/>
Guy Macon
mi...@sushi.com wrote:
>Some companies have a particular ethnic slant that they try to fill
>with H1B and eventually green cards. Exar would hire Turks because of
>Alan Greenbenie (sp), Atmel hired Greeks due to the Perlegos brothers,
>etc. Eventually this crap catches up with the companies since they get
>a pile of inferior employees that are more concerned with covering
>their countrymen's arses rather than getting work done.
I saw that at Mattel. The boss was Checkoslavokian, and he
kept assinging the toys that he thought would be hits to the
Checkoslavokian engineers. He had a problem, though; nobody
has ever figured out how to predict which toys will be hits.
Guy Macon
Joerg wrote:
>
>krw wrote:
>
>> Any non-scripted questions are an invitation to court. If everyone
>> isn't asked the exact same questions, properly vetted by the HR and
>> legal departments, of course, they'll be eaten alive in a
>> courtroom. Sharp interviewers won't ask technical questions at
>> all. ...
>
>Huh? Nobody would have gotten a job at my previous place without a tech
>chat. I wanted to know whether they could really design an RF amp off
>the cuff. If not, no job.
In general, the courts have found that the supposedly well-trained
HR professional is held to a higher standard, while the supposedly
untrained (in interviewing) technical person who does the later
interview has a lot more freedom to ask unscripted questions as
long as he/she avoids the obvious illegal questions. The best
strategy is to avoid dumbing down your explanations during the
HR interview, but instead to use plenty of acronyms and buzzwords.
The HR department is just a gateway to sort through the job-seekers
and throw out the obvious bad ones (I have seen helicopter pilots
with no engineering experience apply for senior engineering jobs).
Your task is to make them decide that they cannot understand what
you are talking about and that an engineer needs to evaluate you.
Jim Thompson
<http://www.GuyMacon.com/> wrote:
>
>
>
>I have been to a few interviews where it was pretty clear that
>they didn't have an actual opening, just on the basic principle
>of keeping in practice, and a couple of times I have ended up
>doing a later interview for a real position based on how well
>I did at the fake interview.
I was interviewed in 2007 by a major semiconductor house, where the
main object seemed to be to take me to lunch and _try_ to pick my
brain ;-)
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research...
-- Albert Einstein
Guy Macon
o...@uakron.edu wrote:
>I once had to move a piece of machinery across campus to claim some
>space before it was reassigned. Special services was way too busy
>moving the arts and math sciences people to their new building, so I
>elected to bring my personal trailer in, load the gear with grad
>student help, and transport it the half mile or so. The gear in
>question was say two hundred pounds, and well strapped down, so I
>asked the Thai student to set on the open trailer and hold some
>fragile cables, with no intention of exceeding about 2 miles a hour.
>
>I know, I know, OSHA would be shocked, if this happened anywhere but a
>farm.
>
> The next line I heard,After he chuckled, "Was wow, this is
>different". So I asked him why. Back home he said, " I would have a
>manager with me, and a crew to do this, and I would be setting in a
>pickup truck, with a driver, and be telling you what to do". He was
>the second son, as such, was packed off to college and grad school to
>be the spare heir in case something happened to number one son. He
>understood it to be his duty to do well, and be far enough away as to
>not interfere with number one. From then on out, he volunteered for a
>lot of physical labor, provided no one was allowed to see him doing
>"less dignified" work. He did remind me, "Steve, when my parents come
>to visit, you do work for me , OK?"
>
> But I had one or two from various cultures that didn't understand
>that the professor expected me to facilitate their work, not DO it.
I once worked for a Japanese company (*really* Japanese; they held
all meetings in Japanese with translators, and considered Toyota
and Sony to be way too americanized), and I noticed that the CEO
would pick up and throw away any scrap of paper he saw on the
factory floor, so I made it a point to do the same. It's important
to understand and adapt to the culture, whether it's a US university
or a Japanese workplace.
John Larkin
<antispa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>"John Larkin" <jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in message
>news:qi6tl4ta9uekghkl8...@4ax.com...
>
>> I had an
>> engineer who was here on a student visa, and we decided he'd work for
>> us full-time if I could get him a green card. I spent about $7K on
>> legal fees (which is cheap, as I understand it) and went through the
>> rituals and eventually got him the card. The day it arrived, he held
>> it up and yelled "I'm out of here!" and left.
>>
>> He subsequently got mad when he learned he wouldn't get a bonus or a
>> 401K contribution after he left. So he called Autocad and told them we
>> were kiting their software, which wasn't true, and then the Autocad
>> lawyers took after us.
>>
>> So, lessons learned: no more green cards, and no more Autocad
>> products.
>
>Something does not connect here.
>Since you hired him, this guy ought to be a good engineer and a decent
>person. Why did he run away?
Because he didn't like me. And because what he really wanted was the
green card.
The part about 401K bonus and autocad doesn't
>make any sense at all.
Made sense to me. We had three people leave that year, and it didn't
make sense to spend a lot of 401K money on them, so we gave the
remaining employees big bonuses instead of the usual 401K
contribution. That pissed him off, since he felt it was "his" money.
John
Jim Thompson
And learn how to bow properly, yet maintain your own status ;-)
bule...@columbus.rr.com
> I once worked for a Japanese company (*really* Japanese; they held
> all meetings in Japanese with translators, and considered Toyota
> and Sony to be way too americanized),
My dad tells me a story about when some Japanese came to visit his
company. The meeting was in English , but the Japanese would talk
among themselves in Japanese, which kind of ticked my dad off. So he
and all the Americans started talking among themselves in pig-latin
whn they wanted to discuss something privately.
Jim Thompson
wrote:
A business associate and I were in Germany. The Germans would switch
to German whenever they wanted to "go private". Unfortunately for
them my associate was born and raised in Germany... and let them know
several hours into the meeting ;-)
Joerg
> On Sat, 03 Jan 2009 08:45:04 -0800, Joerg
> <notthis...@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
>
>> krw wrote:
>>> On Fri, 2 Jan 2009 18:14:26 -0800, "Joel Koltner"
>>> <zapwireD...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "krw" <k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote in message
>>>> news:6jgtl49jv57983132...@4ax.com...
>>>>> If it looks like an exam your lawyer may be in for a lot of work.
>>>> What's questionably legal/ethical about giving exams for job interviews?
>>> I thought I was clear... If the exam isn't well regulated, as in
>>> standardized and well tested, it's too easy to claim discrimination.
>>> "He didn't get the same test I did, mommy." "My test was 'unfair."
>>>
>> Then they should IMHO not apply for a technical job. "Here we have the
>> schematic of an RF amp and we need some more bandwidth out of it. What
>> would you do?" If he/she didn't know, no dice. Very simple.
>
> Come on! Be real. We're talking about (protection from) frivolous
> law suits here.
>
I never let the chance of a frivolous suit get in the way between me and
being able to do my job properly. How can one hire an engineer without
such questions?
>>>> Not that I'm suggesting that's always the way to go, just curious.
>>> I rather liked interviewing where I got to solve problems. I had a
>>> lot of freedom that others may not, though.
>>>
>>>> I have a friend who writes software whose initial job interview consisted of,
>>>> "Here's a PC running a little test program you've never seen before -- but
>>>> using Visual C++ and MFC, which your resume says your have experience with --
>>>> that has this particular bug in the GUI [described]. Please fix it while we
>>>> watch... try to be quick about it." It was only after he'd passed that "bench
>>>> test" that they went on to interviewing with a bug of their guys.
>>> Again, it's easy for a candidate to claim discrimination. To be fair,
>>> it's easy to discriminate, as well. I *know* I was discriminated
>>> against (thought it was funny, though my wife didn't see the humor
>>> when I told her).
>>>
>>> My point is that companies have to protect themselves or they *will*
>>> find loser who will sue and an ambulance chaser who will gladly be the
>>> enabler. That's why you see such crap from HR. In fact that's why it
>>> exists at all.
>>
>> Piece of cake. I've shredded lawyers and whole boards in mid air with
>> far more difficult stuff than that. The culmination was when one board
>> member showed up with a check, to make me go away.
>
> That's exactly the point. The board will *have to* show up with that
> large check and give it to the "poor minority" who claimed "unfair".
I was not a minority. They had threatened to sue _me_. That intention
was rather quickly rescinded once they found out that they had waved a
red flag in front of a bull :-)
> That sort of thing is usually to be avoided. You don't tempt a bull
> with a red flag.
Joerg
Not once did we have a candidate who had to go through an HR filter when
showing up for interview. On the contrary, often it was me who welcomed
them at the door and later they did a 2nd interview at HR. Usually after
we had signaled that we really want this person.
mi...@sushi.com
Web-Site.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 03 Jan 2009 17:45:43 +0000, Guy Macon
>
> <http://www.GuyMacon.com/> wrote:
>
> >I have been to a few interviews where it was pretty clear that
> >they didn't have an actual opening, just on the basic principle
> >of keeping in practice, and a couple of times I have ended up
> >doing a later interview for a real position based on how well
> >I did at the fake interview.
>
> I was interviewed in 2007 by a major semiconductor house, where the
> main object seemed to be to take me to lunch and _try_ to pick my
> brain ;-)
>
> ...Jim Thompson
> --
> | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
> | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
> | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
> | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
> | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
>
> If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research...
> -- Albert Einstein
Gee, maybe this major semi should read usenet.
krw
<notthis...@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
>krw wrote:
>> On Sat, 03 Jan 2009 08:45:04 -0800, Joerg
>> <notthis...@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
>>
>>> krw wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 2 Jan 2009 18:14:26 -0800, "Joel Koltner"
>>>> <zapwireD...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "krw" <k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote in message
>>>>> news:6jgtl49jv57983132...@4ax.com...
>>>>>> If it looks like an exam your lawyer may be in for a lot of work.
>>>>> What's questionably legal/ethical about giving exams for job interviews?
>>>> I thought I was clear... If the exam isn't well regulated, as in
>>>> standardized and well tested, it's too easy to claim discrimination.
>>>> "He didn't get the same test I did, mommy." "My test was 'unfair."
>>>>
>>> Then they should IMHO not apply for a technical job. "Here we have the
>>> schematic of an RF amp and we need some more bandwidth out of it. What
>>> would you do?" If he/she didn't know, no dice. Very simple.
>>
>> Come on! Be real. We're talking about (protection from) frivolous
>> law suits here.
>>
>
>I never let the chance of a frivolous suit get in the way between me and
>being able to do my job properly. How can one hire an engineer without
>such questions?
You don't have to. You don't have to give away the store, either.
It's all *HOW* you ask the question, or what question you ask to get
the information reqired.
Again, you prove my point, though it's not very relevent to the
discussion at hand.
Guy Macon
Joerg wrote:
>
>Guy Macon <http://www.GuyMacon.com/> wrote:
>
>> In general, the courts have found that the supposedly well-trained
>> HR professional is held to a higher standard, while the supposedly
>> untrained (in interviewing) technical person who does the later
>> interview has a lot more freedom to ask unscripted questions as
>> long as he/she avoids the obvious illegal questions. The best
>> strategy is to avoid dumbing down your explanations during the
>> HR interview, but instead to use plenty of acronyms and buzzwords.
>> The HR department is just a gateway to sort through the job-seekers
>> and throw out the obvious bad ones (I have seen helicopter pilots
>> with no engineering experience apply for senior engineering jobs).
>> Your task is to make them decide that they cannot understand what
>> you are talking about and that an engineer needs to evaluate you.
>
>Not once did we have a candidate who had to go through an HR filter when
>showing up for interview. On the contrary, often it was me who welcomed
>them at the door and later they did a 2nd interview at HR. Usually after
>we had signaled that we really want this person.
Are you saying that you allowed HR to pre-screen without allowing
them to pre-interview, or are you saying that you had engineers
screening out the helicopter pilots with no engineering experience
applying for senior engineering jobs? The first choice seems to be
stopping HR from doing a good job, while the second choice seems to
be a waste of engtineering resources.
JosephKK
<jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 02 Jan 2009 19:21:28 GMT, Rich Grise <ri...@example.net> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 01 Jan 2009 21:06:01 -0800, John Larkin wrote:
>>> On Thu, 1 Jan 2009 19:48:30 -0800 (PST), o...@uakron.edu wrote:
>>>
>>>> As I'm going around town and several states handing out resumes, A
>>>>question keeps bugging me.
>>>>Do HR types score points for scheduling interviews for nothing? Is it a
>>>>tax write off to do interviews?
>>
>>...
>>
>>> Bogus interviews are often part of the process of hiring non-citizens. One
>>> has to go through the ritual of advertising for US citizens, interviewing
>>> a few, and finding no suitable candidates before submitting the paperwork
>>> for hiring a foreigner and getting him/her a green card.
>>>
>>> Lawyers are available to assist in the entire process.
>>
>>Right. You're between jobs, making $0.00/hour - you're supposed to hire a
>>lawyer for $250.00/hour?
>>
>>Not today, I think.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Rich
>
>No, the employer generally pays the lawyer. I did this once: I had an
>engineer who was here on a student visa, and we decided he'd work for
>us full-time if I could get him a green card. I spent about $7K on
>legal fees (which is cheap, as I understand it) and went through the
>rituals and eventually got him the card. The day it arrived, he held
>it up and yelled "I'm out of here!" and left.
>
>He subsequently got mad when he learned he wouldn't get a bonus or a
>401K contribution after he left. So he called Autocad and told them we
>were kiting their software, which wasn't true, and then the Autocad
>lawyers took after us.
>
>So, lessons learned: no more green cards, and no more Autocad
>products.
>
>John
>
And you did not bind the young punk to your company for two years as
part of getting the green card? Most companies do that much or more.
JosephKK
>In article <d7b8afcc-4245-458e-9e53-
>681702...@r22g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>, o...@uakron.edu says...>
>> You guys have confirmed my suspicions.
>>
>> No Saturday interviews so far, and in one case on a Monday morning
>> interview the foreigner came in right behind me. Since they network
>> and pool resources and don't mind having sixty-two of themselves in a
>> apartment, I guess they can make it on 20K a year.
>
>Saturday interviews? Why would anyone hold them? Can you make it
>without a job?
>
>> A easy way to tell seems to be when they have a committee doing the
>> interview, to spread out the liability, with scripted questions.
Yep.
>
>Any non-scripted questions are an invitation to court. If everyone
>isn't asked the exact same questions, properly vetted by the HR and
>legal departments, of course, they'll be eaten alive in a
>courtroom.
Not so much the vetted questions by anyone, but three interviewers
taking turns and notes. At least one of my fellow interviewers has
had to demonstrate valid interviewing, it was not pretty.
> Sharp interviewers won't ask technical questions at
>all. ...any more than a psychologist will ask physiology
>questions.
Oh yes we (me and others at my level) do (ask technical questions, we
are hiring technical personnel after all).
>
>> Oh well, still good practice. I suspect a real interview will take
>> less then 10 minutes.
>
>I never had a "real" interview take only 10 minutes. Even phone
>interviews were normally a half hour or so. A half-day was normal
>on-site, though one had me sit in on a design review in the
>afternoon. Got an offer from that one, too, but HR blew it.
My typical interviews are 30 minutes to an hour, mostly closer to an
hour (on both sides of the table).
>
>> Best wishes for a new year,
>
>Good luck and happy hunting.
>
John Larkin
wrote:
I understand that slavery is no longer legal in the USA.
John
Vladimir Vassilevsky
JosephKK wrote:
> And you did not bind the young punk to your company for two years as
> part of getting the green card? Most companies do that much or more.
I don't think you can legaly bind an employee to a company, or a company
to an employee. That would be fairly useless anyway. While ago, some
companies practiced slowing down the GC procedures. However, with the
typical processing time increase to several years, that became unnecessary.
VLV
Jim Thompson
<jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
He wouldn't have been a good employee under those circumstances
anyway. He might have even damaged the company.
Being a good employee can have its drawbacks. In 1970, when I laid
myself off from Motorola, I expected (and hoped for) the standard
treatment... escorted straight out the door. Instead they made me
serve out my two weeks notice :-(
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
Joerg
No. I told HR to only weed out resumes with serious typos and such. Or
very obvious imposters. And no, it is not at all a waste of engineering
resources. Example: I wanted to hire a guy from outside medical to
become production manager. In our business that required an engineer
with serious technical knowledge. HR and my boss wrinkled their
foreheads. "Ok, you go ahead but remember this was your decision, we
would advise to hire a person with medical device expertise". I finally
found and hired a guy from an aircraft manufacturer. And yes, while he
is not a helicopter pilot he does hold a commercial pilot's license to
fly "the big iron". Turned out to be one of the best production manager
we ever had.
Jasen Betts
>>> interview, to spread out the liability, with scripted questions.
>>
>> isn't asked the exact same questions, properly vetted by the HR and
>> legal departments, of course, they'll be eaten alive in a
>> all. ...
>
> Huh? Nobody would have gotten a job at my previous place without a tech
> chat. I wanted to know whether they could really design an RF amp off
> the cuff. If not, no job.
>
two points. the interviewer is HR, not technically competent.
The goal may be to find N unsuitable candidates so a predetermined foreigner
can be greencarded.
Jim Thompson
I once instructed HR (at an unnamed company :) to "file 13" any resume
from ASU.
krw
<jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
Slavery isn't legal, but indentured servitude apparently is. ;-) You
can recover some employment costs if contractual obligations aren
t met. What the limits are is a job for the lawyers. I agree with
others though, you can't afford to keep someone who doesn't want to
stay.
krw
wrote:
It's not what you ask that is important but what answers you get.
There are many ways of finding out what you need to know without
exposing yourself unnecessarily.
Spehro Pefhany
One of the engineers I worked with a year or so ago immigrated from
China. She worked for a Japanese company there. They sent her to Japan
for training, and she had to repay some of the costs of that training
in order to be able to leave. 8-(
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
sp...@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
Joerg
I've never excluded any university, and I never will. How smart a design
engineer is depends on his/her personal skill sets and mind set, not on
whether or not it's ivy league or what the grades were. Heck, some
bright designers I know do not even have a degree. The fact that I've
got a masters from an ivy league university does _not_ necessarily make
me better than other.
mi...@sushi.com
wrote:
That's a good plan. I've seen too much "type casting" in the industry.
Grads from certain schools go to test, others design, apps, etc. I
interviewed MIT grads that couldn't draw a freakin' NAND gate in
MOSFETs. [It's some sort of optional course,] I told the guy doing the
recruiting I'd go postal if I had to interview someone without basic
knowledge of logic gates, and he weeded them out. To be fair, he
wasn't asking if they could design logic gates since he assumed
everyone had that knowledge.
David L. Jones
> As I'm going around town and several states handing out resumes, A
> question keeps bugging me.
> Do HR types score points for scheduling interviews for nothing? Is it
> a tax write off to do interviews?
> candidates when you already know who you want? Because I've traveled
> to two interviews that were a total waste of time for both sides.
> While I
> consider them good practice, Its getting annoying.
>
> When I worked at the university, it was interview at least four
> candidates by state law, but for a private entity I've never seen that
> rule.
>
> I did take the time to run the resume past a professional resume
> type.
>
> As my best friend said , at least your getting interviews.....
>
> I know times are hard, but why would HR just go fishing without
> bait?
Because that's their job. They don't have much else to do.
Expect more like that, you've just got to put up with it and hope you
get lucky soon.
Dave.
RST Engineering (jw)
>>> found and hired a guy from an aircraft manufacturer. And yes, while he
>>> is not a helicopter pilot he does hold a commercial pilot's license to
>>> fly "the big iron". Turned out to be one of the best production manager
>>> we ever had.
Are you telling me that after fifty some years doing design in the RF field,
the fact that I've got a commercial pilot's certificate (it ain't a license,
Bozo), a flight instructor certificate, and an airframe and powerplant
mechanic's certificate that simply holding those certificates would
disqualify me from being a qualified RF/microwave engineer?
Go pound sand.
Jim
krw
That's quite common. My son had to agree to similar terms before his
employer would pay his tuition. My SIL had to do the same (except the
state paid via a scholarship) forty something years ago. I see
nothing wrong, at least from what you've said above. It does cost a
lot of money to train people. Employers should have some return on
that investment.
JosephKK
<jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
Contractual obligations are another thing altogether.
It actually has been quite standard for large companies supporting
students (specifically when paying tuition and books) to require, by
contract, the same duration in guaranteed service. That is why i
never asked for / accepted a previous employers terms for
reimbursement.
JosephKK
Or shortly, if they intend to screw you, you cannot can them fast
enough.
JosephKK
Contractual obligations an be quite wide ranging and very asymmetric.
Employer paid tuition cases are notably so.
Spehro Pefhany
wrote:
Indeed. As the bard himself wrote in the Scottish play:
"If it were done when 'tis done, then 'twere well
It were done quickly"
Jim Thompson
<notthis...@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
>Jim Thompson wrote:
[snip]
>>
>> I once instructed HR (at an unnamed company :) to "file 13" any resume
>> from ASU.
>>
>
>I've never excluded any university, and I never will. How smart a design
>engineer is depends on his/her personal skill sets and mind set, not on
>whether or not it's ivy league or what the grades were. Heck, some
>bright designers I know do not even have a degree. The fact that I've
>got a masters from an ivy league university does _not_ necessarily make
>me better than other.
This was during some particularly bad times for the EE department at
ASU... all the Professors were Indian's or as old as I am now ;-)
ASU EE is now all Indian students :-(
Joerg
> I finally
>>>> found and hired a guy from an aircraft manufacturer. And yes, while he
>>>> is not a helicopter pilot he does hold a commercial pilot's license to
>>>> fly "the big iron". Turned out to be one of the best production manager
>>>> we ever had.
>
>
> Are you telling me that after fifty some years doing design in the RF field,
> the fact that I've got a commercial pilot's certificate (it ain't a license,
C'mon, ease up, Jim. You know what's meant.
> ... a flight instructor certificate, and an airframe and powerplant
> mechanic's certificate that simply holding those certificates would
> disqualify me from being a qualified RF/microwave engineer?
>
Read my post again. I hired him.
> Go pound sand.
>
Huh? Anyhow, when we then proceeded to hire another guy from the
aircraft industry and he happened to be from the same place this
production manager came from we got a threat letter from their laywer. I
laughed pretty hard.
JosephKK
Yep. My first two times on the interviewing side were real eye
openers. Sometimes it was real easy to weed out the chaff, sometimes
it was real hard to determine the best candidate(s).
John Larkin
wrote:
>>>And you did not bind the young punk to your company for two years as
>>>part of getting the green card? Most companies do that much or more.
>>>
>>
>>I understand that slavery is no longer legal in the USA.
>>
>>John
>
>Contractual obligations are another thing altogether.
>
>It actually has been quite standard for large companies supporting
>students (specifically when paying tuition and books) to require, by
>contract, the same duration in guaranteed service. That is why i
>never asked for / accepted a previous employers terms for
>reimbursement.
>
That's not only legally unenforcable, it's silly. Why would an
employer want an employee around who doesn't want to be there?
John
krw
notthis...@removethispacbell.net says...>
> > I finally
> >>>> found and hired a guy from an aircraft manufacturer. And yes, while he
> >>>> is not a helicopter pilot he does hold a commercial pilot's license to
> >>>> fly "the big iron". Turned out to be one of the best production manager
> >>>> we ever had.
> >
> >
> > Are you telling me that after fifty some years doing design in the RF field,
> > the fact that I've got a commercial pilot's certificate (it ain't a license,
> > Bozo), ...
>
>
> C'mon, ease up, Jim. You know what's meant.
>
>
> > ... a flight instructor certificate, and an airframe and powerplant
> > mechanic's certificate that simply holding those certificates would
> > disqualify me from being a qualified RF/microwave engineer?
> >
>
> Read my post again. I hired him.
I think his point was that TPTB didn't think he was qualified
because of the industry he was (or wasn't) in. I can sorta see
their point in this case. Medical devices is a fairly unique
specialization.
> > > Go pound sand.
> >
>
> Huh? Anyhow, when we then proceeded to hire another guy from the
> aircraft industry and he happened to be from the same place this
> production manager came from we got a threat letter from their laywer. I
> laughed pretty hard.
I imagine so. That takes a pretty big paid, particularly since
you're not in the same industry. Not even close.
Guy Macon
By snipping where you did, you left out the part where I specified
"a helicopter pilot with no electronics design experience applying
for a senior deign position", leaving only a partial reply without
the context of what he was replying to.
--
Guy Macon
<http://www.GuyMacon.com/>
Joel Koltner
news:3b94m4hmpi6gnq3oq...@4ax.com...
> That's not only legally unenforcable, it's silly. Why would an
> employer want an employee around who doesn't want to be there?
Because too few employers realize how much impact their engineers have in
whether or not the finals product are just "OK" vs. "spectacular" --
especially when engineering management is performed by those without
engineering backgrounds, which is not at all uncommon today?
I once worked at a place that had a generous tuition reimbursement plan with
no strings attached (other than getting decent grades and having the course
list approved by your manager)... until we hired one guy who was one year away
from finishing a degree (probably MS, although I don't recall for certain
anymore), spent a year doing so while not really being that horribly
productive yet... and left within a month of graduating. After that they
added the clause about having to payback your reimbursement if you left prior
to so-many-additional-months of employment...
---Joel
krw
jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com says...>
They can leave anytime they want. The employer can demand
reimbursement for breech of contract, too. It really isn't a bad
deal for either side.
Joel Koltner
message news:an64m4dobcfosk7to...@4ax.com...
> ASU EE is now all Indian students :-(
I'm sure you'll find that -- as with their U.S.-born counterparts these
days -- plenty of them are just trying to get their sheepskins ASAP and any
learning that happens to occur is secondary... but on infrequent occasion
you'll find some who are quite clever and productive... also as with their
U.S.-born counterparts...
The three tracks you were describing from your high-school days sounds quite
useful; it's really a shame that these's days the only two tracks are "college
bound" and the much-deprecated "non-college bound" (pretty much guaranteed to
make your a burger flipper...).
---Joel
Joerg
> In article <Y4p8l.8220$hc1....@flpi150.ffdc.sbc.com>,
> notthis...@removethispacbell.net says...>
>> RST Engineering (jw) wrote:
>>> I finally
>>>>>> found and hired a guy from an aircraft manufacturer. And yes, while he
>>>>>> is not a helicopter pilot he does hold a commercial pilot's license to
>>>>>> fly "the big iron". Turned out to be one of the best production manager
>>>>>> we ever had.
>>>
>>> Are you telling me that after fifty some years doing design in the RF field,
>>> the fact that I've got a commercial pilot's certificate (it ain't a license,
>>> Bozo), ...
>>
>> C'mon, ease up, Jim. You know what's meant.
>>
>>
>>> ... a flight instructor certificate, and an airframe and powerplant
>>> mechanic's certificate that simply holding those certificates would
>>> disqualify me from being a qualified RF/microwave engineer?
>>>
>> Read my post again. I hired him.
>
> I think his point was that TPTB didn't think he was qualified
> because of the industry he was (or wasn't) in. I can sorta see
> their point in this case. Medical devices is a fairly unique
> specialization.
>
Not really. You just have to watch the rules, truly listen to the Reg/QC
guys and learn about EtO sterilization, biocompatibility, outgassing and
stuff like that. One problem in med is inbreeding, too often they insist
on insiders for jobs and that isn't always good. Need fresh ideas. That
was one of the reasons I hired an aeronautics guy.
>>>> Go pound sand.
>> Huh? Anyhow, when we then proceeded to hire another guy from the
>> aircraft industry and he happened to be from the same place this
>> production manager came from we got a threat letter from their laywer. I
>> laughed pretty hard.
>
> I imagine so. That takes a pretty big paid, particularly since
> you're not in the same industry. Not even close.
>
I think they became afraid that we'd raid the whole place and clean out
their workforce.
Spehro Pefhany
Demanding recompense for breach of contract ain't the same as getting
it.
krw
notthis...@removethispacbell.net says...>
I'm sure there is a lot of institutional knowledge that goes along
with the regs, though. This are two edges to this sword.
> >>>> Go pound sand.
> >> Huh? Anyhow, when we then proceeded to hire another guy from the
> >> aircraft industry and he happened to be from the same place this
> >> production manager came from we got a threat letter from their laywer. I
> >> laughed pretty hard.
> >
> > I imagine so. That takes a pretty big paid, particularly since
> > you're not in the same industry. Not even close.
> >
>
> I think they became afraid that we'd raid the whole place and clean out
> their workforce.
Sure, but they might have a claim if you were raiding IP or
practicing some other form of anti-competative monkey business.
Being in a *completely* different industry any claims they might
have on their employees is laughable.
krw
spef...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat says...>
That's what courts are for.
Jim Thompson
Most companies just take it out of the final pay check.
Guy Macon
Joel Koltner wrote:
>
>John Larkin
>
>> That's not only legally unenforcable, it's silly. Why would an
>> employer want an employee around who doesn't want to be there?
>
>Because too few employers realize how much impact their engineers have in
>whether or not the finals product are just "OK" vs. "spectacular" --
>especially when engineering management is performed by those without
>engineering backgrounds, which is not at all uncommon today?
>
>I once worked at a place that had a generous tuition reimbursement plan with
>no strings attached (other than getting decent grades and having the course
>list approved by your manager)... until we hired one guy who was one year away
>from finishing a degree (probably MS, although I don't recall for certain
>anymore), spent a year doing so while not really being that horribly
>productive yet... and left within a month of graduating. After that they
>added the clause about having to payback your reimbursement if you left prior
>to so-many-additional-months of employment...
That just gets you someone who wants to leave but cannot, and thus does
not care about his work. Think Wally from the Dilbert comic strip.
RichD
> > Minority employment requirements can trigger that but only if you are part
> > of a minority. I personally do not like that word much because it
> > categorizes people and people should not be categorized.
>
> Given the increase in the African and Mexican (and Asian) population
> numbers, when Whites are outnumbered by the "minorities",
In California, a Euro-American is now a minority.
> will we be eligible for all the handouts and preferential treatment
> that the other "minorities" get?
Not yet.... what happens when everyone is entitled to
preferential treatment? Is it like Lake Woebegone?
Joel Koltner
news:V6udnSIWRb7...@giganews.com...
> That just gets you someone who wants to leave but cannot, and thus does
> not care about his work. Think Wally from the Dilbert comic strip.
In general if you have people who don't care about their work you terminate
them.
:-)
But OK, point taken, back in the real world here, yeah, there are probably
situations where the company ends up hurting itself more by keeping the guy
around rather than just letting him go and hiring someone new, but again you
have those pointy-haired bosses who won't realize this.
---Joel
Michael A. Terrell
Guy Macon wrote:
>
> That just gets you someone who wants to leave but cannot, and thus does
> not care about his work. Think Wally from the Dilbert comic strip.
Wally would be too lazy to go to school in the first place. He is a
burnt out Sloman type who thinks he knows everything, and should be paid
for just showing up.
--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html
aioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white
listed, or I will not see your messages.
If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm
There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.
Spehro Pefhany
I think that's allowable here, but only if the employee has signed a
written authorization with the specific amount clearly shown. But if
part of one paycheck covers it, it's not really a big deal.
This was a number of months of income for my colleague- first world
training and travel paid for by 3rd world wages, even relatively high
engineering wages, ends up being pretty close to slavery.
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
sp...@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
krw
<spef...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:
When I left IBM they deducted anything I owed them (nothing) from my
my last check, which included vacation pay and severance. That
written authorization, incuding a waiver of any lawsuit relating to
the severance, acknowledgment of property rights, and all the other
typical exit interview stuff was the price of the severance check.
>This was a number of months of income for my colleague- first world
>training and travel paid for by 3rd world wages, even relatively high
>engineering wages, ends up being pretty close to slavery.
I believe there is also an issue here with education that is
specifically required for your job. My bet is that they're on very
thin ice here. Were it me, I'd have him talk to the state labor
department. He might be a lot better off than he thinks. ;-)
Rich Grise
> ...and I noticed that the CEO would pick up and
> throw away any scrap of paper he saw on the factory floor, so I made it a
> point to do the same.
The boss doesn't have to be Japanese for this sort of thing to be just
plain ol' good sense. ;-)
Then again, once when I was trying to superglue some header connector onto
a piece of perfboard, applying pressure, the little bugger got away. Just
at that moment, the boss was happening by, and he reached down to pick up
my header; when he went to toss it onto my bench it had superglued itself
to his finger. ;-)
Cheers!
Rich
Rich Grise
> On Sun, 04 Jan 2009 12:14:03 -0800, JosephKK <quiett...@yahoo.com>
>>And you did not bind the young punk to your company for two years as
>>part of getting the green card? Most companies do that much or more.
>>
> I understand that slavery is no longer legal in the USA.
>
Cheers!
Rich
Rich Grise
...
> He had a problem, though; nobody has ever figured out how to predict which
> toys will be hits.
Simple! Just find some kid who has become Big by the powers of the
mysterious genie at the carny. ;-)
Or, just find some actual kids to try them. :-)
Good Luck!
Rich
Richard The Dreaded Libertarian
> On Jan 2, Richard The Dreaded Libertarian <n...@example.net> wrote:
>> Given the increase in the African and Mexican (and Asian) population
>> numbers, when Whites are outnumbered by the "minorities",
>
> In California, a Euro-American is now a minority.
>
>> will we be eligible for all the handouts and preferential treatment that
>> the other "minorities" get?
>
> Not yet.... what happens when everyone is entitled to preferential
> treatment? Is it like Lake Woebegone?
My point was basically a rewording of the question, "When everybody goes
on the dole, who pays the bills?"
And this is not intended to be a rhetorical question. Who, exactly, is
expected to pay the bill(s) for all this "largesse"?
Cheers!
Rich
Irish Mike
"Richard The Dreaded Libertarian" <nu...@example.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2009.01.07....@example.net...
Damn yo' be ignorant. Dem evil rich white folk gonna pay.
"Tax the rich and give it to the poor til there ain't no rich no more"
Irish Mike
Guy Macon
Rich Grise wrote:
>
>Guy Macon <http://www.GuyMacon.com/> wrote:
>...
>> He had a problem, though; nobody has ever figured out
>> how to predict which toys will be hits.
>
>Simple! Just find some kid who has become Big by the
>powers of the mysterious genie at the carny. ;-)
>
>Or, just find some actual kids to try them. :-)
Alas, children are particularly bad at predicting which toys
will be hits. For one thing, most toys are not bought by
children but by someone buying a toy for a child. Even if
the actual purchaser is responding to a child's stated wishes,
those wishes are based on toy advertisements (which the child
has seen) and not on the actual toy (which the child has not
seen yet.) To complicate things, the target customer is not
the person who buys the toy, but rather what the toy buyer at
Walmart thinks that the person who buys the toy will buy.
Jim Thompson
<http://www.GuyMacon.com/> wrote:
As grandparents of eight, we get toy catalogs daily ;-)
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine Sometimes I even put it in the food
Paul Hovnanian P.E.
>
> As I'm going around town and several states handing out resumes, A
> question keeps bugging me.
> Do HR types score points for scheduling interviews for nothing? Is it
> a tax write off to do interviews?
> Is there a new federal/state requirement to interview a bunch of
> candidates when you already know who you want? Because I've traveled
> to two interviews that were a total waste of time for both sides.
You don't waste time and money traveling to interview with HR. If your
potential supervisor isn't participating, it should be done over the
telephone.
--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:Pa...@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
2 + 2 = 5 for extremely large values of 2.
Charlie E.
<antispa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>"John Larkin" <jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in message
>news:qi6tl4ta9uekghkl8...@4ax.com...
>
>> I had an
>> engineer who was here on a student visa, and we decided he'd work for
>> us full-time if I could get him a green card. I spent about $7K on
>> legal fees (which is cheap, as I understand it) and went through the
>> rituals and eventually got him the card. The day it arrived, he held
>> it up and yelled "I'm out of here!" and left.
>>
>> He subsequently got mad when he learned he wouldn't get a bonus or a
>> 401K contribution after he left. So he called Autocad and told them we
>> were kiting their software, which wasn't true, and then the Autocad
>> lawyers took after us.
>>
>> So, lessons learned: no more green cards, and no more Autocad
>> products.
>
>Something does not connect here.
>Since you hired him, this guy ought to be a good engineer and a decent
>person. Why did he run away? The part about 401K bonus and autocad doesn't
>make any sense at all. Perhaps there is a lesson in this story, but it
>doesn't seem to be about green cards and autocads.
>
>
>VLV
>
>
Oh, he probably thought that he had them coming...
A decade or so ago, I was working the job from heck, and as the
project came to the end, they had a big meeting where they gave out
the end of year/end of project bonuses. I already knew I was being
laid off, but one of the few reasons I was still present on the job
was that bonus check that was coming.
So, at the end of the meeting, when I realized that I wasn't getting
one, it was quite a shock. Boss had thought it would be entertaining
to watch me swing in the breeze. I had two revenges. First, that was
my last day, but they paid me through the end of the year. Second,
six months later when that boss was interveiwing at my new place of
employment, he didn't have a chance in heck of getting hired!
Charlie
Charlie E.
<zapwireD...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>"krw" <k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote in message
>news:6jgtl49jv57983132...@4ax.com...
>> If it looks like an exam your lawyer may be in for a lot of work.
>
>What's questionably legal/ethical about giving exams for job interviews?
>
>Not that I'm suggesting that's always the way to go, just curious.
>
>I have a friend who writes software whose initial job interview consisted of,
>"Here's a PC running a little test program you've never seen before -- but
>using Visual C++ and MFC, which your resume says your have experience with --
>that has this particular bug in the GUI [described]. Please fix it while we
>watch... try to be quick about it." It was only after he'd passed that "bench
>test" that they went on to interviewing with a bug of their guys.
>
>---Joel
>
Well, when I was hired at my last job, it was an all morning
interview. Started with a manager giving a tech test, a meeting with
my bosses, and then a group interview with 'the gang!' I had a good
time, and they did too, so an offer was assured.
Charlie
krw
ri...@example.net says...>
One cannot sell oneself into slavery either.
Rich Grise
> On Sat, 3 Jan 2009 08:41:26 -0600, "Vladimir Vassilevsky"
>>
>>> engineer who was here on a student visa, and we decided he'd work for
>>> us full-time if I could get him a green card. I spent about $7K on
>>> legal fees (which is cheap, as I understand it) and went through the
>>> rituals and eventually got him the card. The day it arrived, he held it
>>> up and yelled "I'm out of here!" and left.
>>Something does not connect here.
>>Since you hired him, this guy ought to be a good engineer and a decent
>>person. Why did he run away? The part about 401K bonus and autocad
>>doesn't make any sense at all. Perhaps there is a lesson in this story,
>>but it doesn't seem to be about green cards and autocads.
> Oh, he probably thought that he had them coming...
>
> A decade or so ago, I was working the job from heck, and as the project
> came to the end, they had a big meeting where they gave out the end of
> year/end of project bonuses. I already knew I was being laid off, but one
> of the few reasons I was still present on the job was that bonus check
> that was coming.
>
> So, at the end of the meeting, when I realized that I wasn't getting one,
> it was quite a shock. Boss had thought it would be entertaining to watch
> me swing in the breeze. I had two revenges. First, that was my last day,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
At this point, I'd have quit sniveling about the bonus.
Cheers!
Rich
Richard The Dreaded Libertarian
>
> "Richard The Dreaded Libertarian" <nu...@example.net> wrote in message
> news:pan.2009.01.07....@example.net...
>> On Mon, 05 Jan 2009 12:36:28 -0800, RichD wrote:
>>> On Jan 2, Richard The Dreaded Libertarian <n...@example.net> wrote:
>>>>...
>>>> Given the increase in the African and Mexican (and Asian) population
>>>> numbers, when Whites are outnumbered by the "minorities",
>>>
>>> In California, a Euro-American is now a minority.
>>>
>>>> will we be eligible for all the handouts and preferential treatment
>>>> that the other "minorities" get?
>>>
>>> Not yet.... what happens when everyone is entitled to preferential
>>> treatment? Is it like Lake Woebegone?
>>
>> My point was basically a rewording of the question, "When everybody goes
>> on the dole, who pays the bills?"
>>
>> And this is not intended to be a rhetorical question. Who, exactly, is
>> expected to pay the bill(s) for all this "largesse"?
>
> Damn yo' be ignorant. Dem evil rich white folk gonna pay.
>
> "Tax the rich and give it to the poor til there ain't no rich no more"
Feh. If you want to tax the rich, then lose the income tax and replace it
with an _outgo_ tax. Don't tax what they _EARN_, tax what they _SPEND_.
Cheers!
Rich
Guy Macon
krw wrote:
> ri...@example.net says...>
>
>> John Larkin wrote:
>>
>>> JosephKK ...
>>>
>>>> And you did not bind the young punk to your company for two years as
>>>> part of getting the green card? Most companies do that much or more.
>>>>
>>> I understand that slavery is no longer legal in the USA.
>>>
>>If he's getting paid, then it's not slavery; it's a "contract". >:->
>
>One cannot sell oneself into slavery either.
I suggest that you go to your local US Army recruiter, sign up, and
then a couple of months later try to quit your new job. I imagine
that your "one cannot sell oneself into slavery" argument will go
over quite well.
krw
Guy Macon
krw wrote:
>
>Guy Macon <http://www.GuyMacon.com/> says...
A personal attack is a poor substitute for a logical argument.
There is nothing stupid about what I wrote; it is a valid logical
refutation-by-example of your claim. You have repeatly asserted
that one cannot "bind the young punk to your company" on the basis
of slavery being illegal. I gave a perfectly good example of such
a practice being perfectly legal.
There is a difference between slavery and an employment contract.
If you wish to learn the difference, please address the substance
of my argument rather than resorting to ad hominems. If, on the
other hand, you prefer flaming to a constructive conversation,
I refer you to the reply given in the case of Arkell v. Pressdram.
--
"Arguing with anonymous strangers on the Internet
is a sucker's game because they almost always
turn out to be -- or to be indistinguishable
from -- self-righteous sixteen-year-olds possessing
infinite amounts of free time."
-Neil Stephenson, _Cryptonomicon_
Guy Macon
<http://www.GuyMacon.com/>
krw
<http://www.GuyMacon.com/> wrote:
>
>
>
>krw wrote:
>>
>>Guy Macon <http://www.GuyMacon.com/> says...
>>
>>>krw wrote:
>>>
>>> > ri...@example.net says...>
>>> >
>>> >> John Larkin wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>> JosephKK ...
>>> >>>
>>> >>>> And you did not bind the young punk to your company for two years as
>>> >>>> part of getting the green card? Most companies do that much or more.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>> I understand that slavery is no longer legal in the USA.
>>> >>>
>>> >>If he's getting paid, then it's not slavery; it's a "contract". >:->
>>> >
>>> >One cannot sell oneself into slavery either.
>>>
>>> I suggest that you go to your local US Army recruiter, sign up, and
>>> then a couple of months later try to quit your new job. I imagine
>>> that your "one cannot sell oneself into slavery" argument will go
>>> over quite well.
>>
>>Don't be so stupid.
>
>A personal attack is a poor substitute for a logical argument.
Statement of fact. That *was* a stupid statement, worthy of a moral
relativist.
>There is nothing stupid about what I wrote; it is a valid logical
>refutation-by-example of your claim. You have repeatly asserted
>that one cannot "bind the young punk to your company" on the basis
>of slavery being illegal. I gave a perfectly good example of such
>a practice being perfectly legal.
Military personel are not in any way owned. There is a term of
enlistment. They cannot be murdered and are within the law.
>There is a difference between slavery and an employment contract.
Of course there is. I never said anything differently.
>If you wish to learn the difference, please address the substance
>of my argument rather than resorting to ad hominems. If, on the
>other hand, you prefer flaming to a constructive conversation,
>I refer you to the reply given in the case of Arkell v. Pressdram.
Don't be stupid.
JosephKK
<spef...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:
>On Mon, 5 Jan 2009 11:25:58 -0600, krw <k...@att.zzzzzzzzz> wrote:
>
>>In article <3b94m4hmpi6gnq3oq...@4ax.com>,
>>jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com says...>
>>> On Sun, 04 Jan 2009 22:43:05 -0800, JosephKK <quiett...@yahoo.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> >>>And you did not bind the young punk to your company for two years as
>>> >>>part of getting the green card? Most companies do that much or more.
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >>I understand that slavery is no longer legal in the USA.
>>> >>
>>> >>John
>>> >
>>> >Contractual obligations are another thing altogether.
>>> >
>>> >It actually has been quite standard for large companies supporting
>>> >students (specifically when paying tuition and books) to require, by
>>> >contract, the same duration in guaranteed service. That is why i
>>> >never asked for / accepted a previous employers terms for
>>> >reimbursement.
>>> >
>>>
>>> That's not only legally unenforcable, it's silly. Why would an
>>> employer want an employee around who doesn't want to be there?
>>
>>They can leave anytime they want. The employer can demand
>>reimbursement for breech of contract, too. It really isn't a bad
>>deal for either side.
>
>Demanding recompense for breach of contract ain't the same as getting
>it.
Yes but getting embroiled in such a case stinks you up for other
employers for years. No subsequent manager will sign you up for such
a deal ever again.
cs_po...@hotmail.com
> That's a good plan. I've seen too much "type casting" in the industry.
> Grads from certain schools go to test, others design, apps, etc. I
> interviewed MIT grads that couldn't draw a freakin' NAND gate in
> MOSFETs. [It's some sort of optional course,]
Actually it's covered in the 4th of the required 4-semester EECS
kickoff sequence, and possibly in some of the other courses as well.
It's simulating it in spice with the right dimensions that is in the
optional course.
But it's rarely _used_, so readily forgotten in many cases.