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Powerline modem
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Marco Trapanese
Nov 2, 2012, 10:40:52 AM11/2/12
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Hello,
what would you recommend to communicate over a powerline? I'm talking
about a 230VAC L+N.
The best would be a completely transparent modem.
I used Cypress CY8CPLC10 chips but they require a lot of external
components and they are quite expensive.
Some colleagues discouraged me to use ST and NXP powerline products.
They say those components aren't very reliable.
What do you think about?
Thanks
Marco
what would you recommend to communicate over a powerline? I'm talking
about a 230VAC L+N.
The best would be a completely transparent modem.
I used Cypress CY8CPLC10 chips but they require a lot of external
components and they are quite expensive.
Some colleagues discouraged me to use ST and NXP powerline products.
They say those components aren't very reliable.
What do you think about?
Thanks
Marco
Jan Panteltje
Nov 2, 2012, 10:46:31 AM11/2/12
to
On a sunny day (Fri, 02 Nov 2012 15:40:52 +0100) it happened Marco Trapanese
<marcotrapa...@gmail.com> wrote in <k70m1j$ij1$1...@tdi.cu.mi.it>:
I'd probably grab an old 4046 or 2 :-)
FM, PLL at rx end.
I have used tthat over some cables.
Wind some coupling inductors...
Maybe a transistor or 2...
<marcotrapa...@gmail.com> wrote in <k70m1j$ij1$1...@tdi.cu.mi.it>:
FM, PLL at rx end.
I have used tthat over some cables.
Wind some coupling inductors...
Maybe a transistor or 2...
Vladimir Vassilevsky
Nov 2, 2012, 11:13:43 AM11/2/12
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"Marco Trapanese":
> what would you recommend to communicate over a powerline? I'm talking
> about a 230VAC L+N.
FSK in the software of main microcontroller.
Vladimir Vassilevsky
DSP and Mixed Signal Consultant
www.abvolt.com
Andrzej Ekiert
Nov 2, 2012, 12:04:21 PM11/2/12
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On Fri, 02 Nov 2012 15:40:52 +0100, Marco Trapanese
<marcotrapa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> what would you recommend to communicate over a powerline? I'm talking
> about a 230VAC L+N.
>
> The best would be a completely transparent modem.
Well, I would shamelessly recommend my powerline modem library and
<marcotrapa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> what would you recommend to communicate over a powerline? I'm talking
> about a 230VAC L+N.
>
> The best would be a completely transparent modem.
reference design, that does BPSK in software on a dsPIC:
http://protronik.pl/plm.html
Drop me an e-mail if you wish to get more info.
Cheers,
Andrzej Ekiert
Marco Trapanese
Nov 2, 2012, 12:40:07 PM11/2/12
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Il 02/11/2012 17:04, Andrzej Ekiert ha scritto:
> Well, I would shamelessly recommend my powerline modem library and
> reference design, that does BPSK in software on a dsPIC:
> http://protronik.pl/plm.html
Interesting!
> Well, I would shamelessly recommend my powerline modem library and
> reference design, that does BPSK in software on a dsPIC:
> http://protronik.pl/plm.html
I did something similar years ago - like an rtty transceiver. Ok,
different frequencies but similar concept.
I was afraid it doesn't work on a noisy and wide power network of a
large apartment.
But if you did that I'm sure it works!
Marco
Andrzej Ekiert
Nov 2, 2012, 1:50:05 PM11/2/12
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On Fri, 02 Nov 2012 17:40:07 +0100, Marco Trapanese
<marcotrapa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I was afraid it doesn't work on a noisy and wide power network of a
> large apartment.
Well, it has its limits. Apartaments and residential households are
<marcotrapa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I was afraid it doesn't work on a noisy and wide power network of a
> large apartment.
generally easy. We have more trouble with large offices and industrial
buildings, brushed motor machinery, etc.
> But if you did that I'm sure it works!
Regards,
Andrzej Ekiert
upsid...@downunder.com
Nov 2, 2012, 3:55:32 PM11/2/12
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phases even in every apartment in an apartment building,
There might be problems communicating between devices, connected to
different phases. The only communication path would be through
capacitive coupling in the feeder cable to the distribution panel.
Marco Trapanese
Nov 3, 2012, 4:27:35 AM11/3/12
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Il 02/11/2012 20:55, upsid...@downunder.com ha scritto:
> This appears to be 230/400 Vac 50 Hz environment with possibly three
> phases even in every apartment in an apartment building,
>
> There might be problems communicating between devices, connected to
> different phases. The only communication path would be through
> capacitive coupling in the feeder cable to the distribution panel.
Here is very unlikely to have different phases in each apartment of the
> This appears to be 230/400 Vac 50 Hz environment with possibly three
> phases even in every apartment in an apartment building,
>
> There might be problems communicating between devices, connected to
> different phases. The only communication path would be through
> capacitive coupling in the feeder cable to the distribution panel.
same building.
Of course isn't possible to communicate between two apartments due to
the power meter which "isolate" each one. But I don't want this.
I want to communicate within the same apartment only.
About the coupling with the power line, do you know any app note that
describes the best ways to design the front-end?
Thanks!
Marco
upsid...@downunder.com
Nov 3, 2012, 6:03:47 AM11/3/12
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On Sat, 03 Nov 2012 09:27:35 +0100, Marco Trapanese
<marcotrapa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Il 02/11/2012 20:55, upsid...@downunder.com ha scritto:
>
>> This appears to be 230/400 Vac 50 Hz environment with possibly three
>> phases even in every apartment in an apartment building,
>>
>> There might be problems communicating between devices, connected to
>> different phases. The only communication path would be through
>> capacitive coupling in the feeder cable to the distribution panel.
>
>
>Here is very unlikely to have different phases in each apartment of the
>same building.
I have 3x16 A circuit breakers for the electric stove in my 7th floor
<marcotrapa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Il 02/11/2012 20:55, upsid...@downunder.com ha scritto:
>
>> This appears to be 230/400 Vac 50 Hz environment with possibly three
>> phases even in every apartment in an apartment building,
>>
>> There might be problems communicating between devices, connected to
>> different phases. The only communication path would be through
>> capacitive coupling in the feeder cable to the distribution panel.
>
>
>Here is very unlikely to have different phases in each apartment of the
>same building.
apartment (after a renovation two years ago). I have not measured, if
the mains sockets in different rooms are on different phases.
>Of course isn't possible to communicate between two apartments due to
>the power meter which "isolate" each one. But I don't want this.
>I want to communicate within the same apartment only.
>
>About the coupling with the power line, do you know any app note that
>describes the best ways to design the front-end?
prevent the buildup of internet service providers from using PLC
technology, due to the RF pollution caused by these PLC systems.
Anyway powerline communication is usable at reasonable bit rates and
reasonable distances. Have you studied for instance what couplers LON
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LonWorks) systems are using ?
Andrzej Ekiert
Nov 3, 2012, 8:55:45 AM11/3/12
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On Sat, 03 Nov 2012 09:27:35 +0100, Marco Trapanese
<marcotrapa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Il 02/11/2012 20:55, upsid...@downunder.com ha scritto:
>
>> This appears to be 230/400 Vac 50 Hz environment with possibly three
>> phases even in every apartment in an apartment building,
>>
>> There might be problems communicating between devices, connected to
>> different phases. The only communication path would be through
>> capacitive coupling in the feeder cable to the distribution panel.
>
>
> Here is very unlikely to have different phases in each apartment of the
> same building.
Maybe rare in apartment buildings, but common in standalone residential
<marcotrapa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Il 02/11/2012 20:55, upsid...@downunder.com ha scritto:
>
>> This appears to be 230/400 Vac 50 Hz environment with possibly three
>> phases even in every apartment in an apartment building,
>>
>> There might be problems communicating between devices, connected to
>> different phases. The only communication path would be through
>> capacitive coupling in the feeder cable to the distribution panel.
>
>
> Here is very unlikely to have different phases in each apartment of the
> same building.
houses. Anyway, easy do deal with using a capacitive coupler that could be
installed in the breaker panel. Any three-phase device usually provides
enough coupling to get the transmission going (e.g. a flow water heater,
electric oven).
> Of course isn't possible to communicate between two apartments due to
> the power meter which "isolate" each one.
the CENELEC bands. Unless, of course, someone somewhere installs meters
with a built-in filter. Having heard about that, I have yet to see such a
thing in the field.
Regards,
Andrzej Ekiert
--
http://www.protronik.pl
Marco Trapanese
Nov 3, 2012, 9:52:13 AM11/3/12
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Il 03/11/2012 13:55, Andrzej Ekiert ha scritto:
> Maybe rare in apartment buildings, but common in standalone residential
> houses. Anyway, easy do deal with using a capacitive coupler that could
> be installed in the breaker panel. Any three-phase device usually
> provides enough coupling to get the transmission going (e.g. a flow
> water heater, electric oven).
I'm talking about my (little) experience here in Italy.
> Maybe rare in apartment buildings, but common in standalone residential
> houses. Anyway, easy do deal with using a capacitive coupler that could
> be installed in the breaker panel. Any three-phase device usually
> provides enough coupling to get the transmission going (e.g. a flow
> water heater, electric oven).
> That's a common myth. Energy meters don't significantly filter signals
> in the CENELEC bands. Unless, of course, someone somewhere installs
> meters with a built-in filter. Having heard about that, I have yet to
> see such a thing in the field.
prevent the communication.
Marco
Andrzej Ekiert
Nov 3, 2012, 10:17:45 AM11/3/12
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On Sat, 03 Nov 2012 14:52:13 +0100, Marco Trapanese
<marcotrapa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> That's a common myth. Energy meters don't significantly filter signals
>> in the CENELEC bands. Unless, of course, someone somewhere installs
>> meters with a built-in filter. Having heard about that, I have yet to
>> see such a thing in the field.
>
>
> I did some tests with my front-door friends and our energy meters
> prevent the communication.
Italy. You live in the only (I think) country that has deployed PLC for
<marcotrapa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> That's a common myth. Energy meters don't significantly filter signals
>> in the CENELEC bands. Unless, of course, someone somewhere installs
>> meters with a built-in filter. Having heard about that, I have yet to
>> see such a thing in the field.
>
>
> I did some tests with my front-door friends and our energy meters
> prevent the communication.
automatic meter reading on massive scale. May be that
ENEL's modems/meters include filters to keep the medium quiet. You do have
a solid state meter with a PLC modem, don't you?
Regards,
Andrzej
Marco Trapanese
Nov 3, 2012, 10:22:06 AM11/3/12
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Il 03/11/2012 15:17, Andrzej Ekiert ha scritto:
> Italy. You live in the only (I think) country that has deployed PLC for
> automatic meter reading on massive scale. May be that
> ENEL's modems/meters include filters to keep the medium quiet.
I guess you're right.
> automatic meter reading on massive scale. May be that
> ENEL's modems/meters include filters to keep the medium quiet.
> You do
> have a solid state meter with a PLC modem, don't you?
http://www.enel.it/it-IT/reti/enel_distribuzione/qualita/progetti_contatore_elettronico/
Marco
Jasen Betts
Nov 3, 2012, 10:31:05 AM11/3/12
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On 2012-11-02, Marco Trapanese <marcotrapa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> what would you recommend to communicate over a powerline? I'm talking
> about a 230VAC L+N.
It depends what you want.
> Hello,
>
> what would you recommend to communicate over a powerline? I'm talking
> about a 230VAC L+N.
how much range, how much bandwidth, how much cost....
--
⚂⚃ 100% natural
Marco Trapanese
Nov 3, 2012, 10:39:04 AM11/3/12
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Il 03/11/2012 15:31, Jasen Betts ha scritto:
> how much range
within a single apartment.
> how much bandwidth
about 2400 bps is enough.
> how much cost....
as low as possible, of course ;)
But I'd prefer smaller size rather than lower cost.
Marco
> how much range
within a single apartment.
> how much bandwidth
about 2400 bps is enough.
> how much cost....
as low as possible, of course ;)
But I'd prefer smaller size rather than lower cost.
Marco
Jan Panteltje
Nov 3, 2012, 11:23:18 AM11/3/12
to
On a sunny day (Sat, 03 Nov 2012 15:39:04 +0100) it happened Marco Trapanese
<marcotrapa...@gmail.com> wrote in <k73aa6$62u$1...@tdi.cu.mi.it>:
Use some of those 430 MHz modules.
For example the fan control in my bathroom sends data that way to a big exhaust fan in the attic.
Digital encoded commands, like a remote control.
<marcotrapa...@gmail.com> wrote in <k73aa6$62u$1...@tdi.cu.mi.it>:
For example the fan control in my bathroom sends data that way to a big exhaust fan in the attic.
Digital encoded commands, like a remote control.
linnix
Nov 3, 2012, 1:59:02 PM11/3/12
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