LM324 - Again but in more detail

[piglet]

This 2019 TI app note is interesting to anyone who previously thought
they knew the LM324 all ways round:

<http://www.ti.com/lit/an/sloa277/sloa277.pdf>

piglet

[bitrex]

The quad is nearly twice as fast as the dual which I wouldn't have supposed.

It's still a great chip for very cost-constrained applications, this
little "toy" analog synthesizer aside from the battery boost IC, uP, and
digital delay IC the analog audio path is all '324s and discrete
transistors.

<https://www.guitarcenter.com/Korg/Monotron-Delay-Analog-Ribbon-Synthesizer-1323966670154.gc?source=4WWRWXGP&gclid=CjwKCAiA8qLvBRAbEiwAE_ZzPS9oG3gdQBAnys0juYKVKReR4L041wQ5GSKIaPyybD4hvzw-EGGdNxoCdnMQAvD_BwE>

[jrwal...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, 5 December 2019 22:42:01 UTC, bitrex wrote:
> On 12/5/19 2:39 PM, piglet wrote:
> > This 2019 TI app note is interesting to anyone who previously thought
> > they knew the LM324 all ways round:

That really is a remarkable app note.

John

[John Robertson]

On 2019/12/05 2:41 p.m., bitrex wrote:
> On 12/5/19 2:39 PM, piglet wrote:
>> This 2019 TI app note is interesting to anyone who previously thought
>> they knew the LM324 all ways round:
>>
>> <http://www.ti.com/lit/an/sloa277/sloa277.pdf>
>>
>> piglet
>>
>
> The quad is nearly twice as fast as the dual which I wouldn't have
> supposed.

The really great (would that all be as well written!) app note points
out that only on the quad die does the chip get close to the capacitance
specs...

John :-#)#

[John Larkin]

Yikes. The 324 shows visible crossover distortion at 60 Hz!

But then, some people like distortion.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

[bitrex]

On 12/5/19 8:09 PM, John Larkin wrote:
> On Thu, 5 Dec 2019 17:41:56 -0500, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
>
>> On 12/5/19 2:39 PM, piglet wrote:
>>> This 2019 TI app note is interesting to anyone who previously thought
>>> they knew the LM324 all ways round:
>>>
>>> <http://www.ti.com/lit/an/sloa277/sloa277.pdf>
>>>
>>> piglet
>>>
>>
>> The quad is nearly twice as fast as the dual which I wouldn't have supposed.
>>
>> It's still a great chip for very cost-constrained applications, this
>> little "toy" analog synthesizer aside from the battery boost IC, uP, and
>> digital delay IC the analog audio path is all '324s and discrete
>> transistors.
>>
>> <https://www.guitarcenter.com/Korg/Monotron-Delay-Analog-Ribbon-Synthesizer-1323966670154.gc?source=4WWRWXGP&gclid=CjwKCAiA8qLvBRAbEiwAE_ZzPS9oG3gdQBAnys0juYKVKReR4L041wQ5GSKIaPyybD4hvzw-EGGdNxoCdnMQAvD_BwE>
>
> Yikes. The 324 shows visible crossover distortion at 60 Hz!
>
> But then, some people like distortion.
>

Full schematic of the original toy, this one didn't even have a uP.
Audio output is a "TPA611A2DR."

<https://www.korg.com/download/global/monotron_schematic/monotron_sch.pdf>

The outputs of the two sections that carry actual audio signal rather
than acting as control voltage processors/buffers look to be
thoughtfully terminated to ground rather than the mid-point so those
sections are always sourcing current and there isn't a cross-over problem.

[whit3rd]

On Thursday, December 5, 2019 at 5:09:46 PM UTC-8, John Larkin wrote:

> Yikes. The 324 shows visible crossover distortion at 60 Hz!

'visible' isn't a measure of distortion.
-3 points, units.

Seriously, you DO know that class B is better for battery power,
but class AB or A for distortion?
Add that to the fact that class B has lower component precision
requirements, and we have a niche winner!

[jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com]

On Thu, 5 Dec 2019 18:44:08 -0800 (PST), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Thursday, December 5, 2019 at 5:09:46 PM UTC-8, John Larkin wrote:
>
>> Yikes. The 324 shows visible crossover distortion at 60 Hz!
>
>'visible' isn't a measure of distortion.
>-3 points, units.
>

If I can see it on an oscilloscope, it's a lot of distortion.

>Seriously, you DO know that class B is better for battery power,
>but class AB or A for distortion?

I know that there are modern RRIO opamps that are faster, use less
power, and have no crossover distortion.

The LM324 is 45 years old. Did Widlar design the 324?

We met Widlar's girlfriend at the bar at the Washington Square Bar and
Grille, while he was living in Mexico. She was amazed that anyone had
heard of him. She didn't know what he did, but had interesting
stories.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

[bitrex]

seems unlikely, the LM324 was released in 1972, Widlar wasn't working
for National at the time (unless it was a off-the-record contractor kind
of deal)

[bitrex]

not exactly a lot of "genius" to the LM324 circuit, it's the kind of
design that makes you wonder why it took until even '72 for anyone to
make that in a quad.

[jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com]

Not exactly off the record.

The GF said that they had a kitchen table with a heavy oilcloth
tablecloth. There were drawings of chips under it, and she was never
allowed to see them. He was paranoid about that. A couple of times a
year, he'd roll them up, fly up to National, and revolutionize linear
IC design again.

She was worried about his drinking.

[bitrex]

What year was this?

Regis McKenna apparently said Widlar and Talbert were responsible for
everything National did in the 70s but he left National in '69 according
to my history books so how the fuck would he know.

my guess is by the mid-late 70s Widlar's best work was behind him he was
too into the booze to be "revolutionizing" anything. if it was all
off-the-record stuff though then who knows. can anyone confirm anything
Widlar did for them for sure from 74-81 other than the LM10?

[bitrex]

Well if he did the LM324 I can see why he wouldn't want his name
attached to it. It's definitely meatloaf, not filet mignon.

Meatloaf is okay sometimes.

[Rick C]

Wasn't he the one who died in his Porche? Compare that to Bob Pease dying in his Beetle. I believe Bob actually died of an aneurysm which made him crash.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

[bitrex]

The references on wikipedia said Widlar died of a heart attack in Mexico
while jogging or something. possibly related to his (former?) alcoholism.

Never heard anything about extenuating circumstances in Pease's death
the ME would be able to determine that I would imagine though? idk if
those records are available to the public at this point. area it
happened was a treacherous piece of road, swing-axle rear ends were easy
to lose control of, he was distraught and not focusing on his driving in
a difficult car even in the best of times. and it understeered right out
from under him. Overconfidence caught up would be my guess with no
further info.

The Volt has a tendency to understeer also and I've nearly lost it a
couple times on sharp curves when I wasn't paying full attention but
with the computer's help the car was able to correct. 45 mph head first
into the woods is a very bad day but probably survivable in a modern car
with 12 airbags and a seatbelt but in a Bug without wearing a belt, nah.

I drove a late 70s Superbeetle one time even that thing was nuts, like
putting around in a clown car from the circus. you could never pay me
enough to take that jalopy out on the open road regularly. But I'm not
"of the era"

[bitrex]

On 12/6/19 12:40 AM, bitrex wrote:

>> Wasn't he the one who died in his Porche?  Compare that to Bob Pease
>> dying in his Beetle.  I believe Bob actually died of an aneurysm which
>> made him crash.
>>
>
> The references on wikipedia said Widlar died of a heart attack in Mexico
> while jogging or something. possibly related to his (former?) alcoholism.
>
> Never heard anything about extenuating circumstances in Pease's death
> the ME would be able to determine that I would imagine though? idk if
> those records are available to the public at this point. area it
> happened was a treacherous piece of road, swing-axle rear ends were easy
> to lose control of, he was distraught and not focusing on his driving in
> a difficult car even in the best of times. and it understeered right out
> from under him. Overconfidence caught up would be my guess with no
> further info.
>
> The Volt has a tendency to understeer also and I've nearly lost it a
> couple times on sharp curves when I wasn't paying full attention but
> with the computer's help the car was able to correct. 45 mph head first
> into the woods is a very bad day but probably survivable in a modern car
> with 12 airbags and a seatbelt but in a Bug without wearing a belt, nah.
>
> I drove a late 70s Superbeetle one time even that thing was nuts, like
> putting around in a clown car from the circus. you could never pay me
> enough to take that jalopy out on the open road regularly. But I'm not
> "of the era"

A "type" of engineer. Building the future on the job, but then on their
free time wanna drive 50 year old jalopys and use flip-phones from 20
years ago. ????????

[Winfield Hill]

bitrex wrote...

>
>On 12/5/19 11:31 PM, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>> On Thu, 5 Dec 2019 23:07:45 -0500, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
>>> On 12/5/19 10:56 PM, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The LM324 is 45 years old. Did Widlar design the 324?
>>>

>>> seems unlikely, the LM324 was released in 1972, Widlar wasn't

>>> working for National at the time ...

>
> Well if he did the LM324 I can see why he wouldn't want his name
> attached to it. It's definitely meatloaf, not filet mignon.

Widlar wrote at length about his designs, and they were all
about clever circuit and fab tricks, which added plenty of
complexity, to get special performance. There's no sign of
any of that in the LM324. It doesn't have the Widlar look.


--
Thanks,
- Win

[Gerhard Hoffmann]

Am 06.12.19 um 06:09 schrieb Rick C:

That was James Dean?

> Compare that to Bob Pease dying in his Beetle. I believe Bob actually died of an aneurysm which made him crash.
>

Gerhard

[jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com]

LM324 was revolutionary in its time. As was the bandgap voltage
reference. Ditto the Widlar current mirror.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Widlar

[piglet]

I agree it lacks Widlar's flair, somehow I always thought of Dobkin but
I could be mistaken. I thought the LM324 and it's derivative LM339 were
progressions from the 1971 LM311 which may have been the first to use
PNP input stage once they managed to fab half decent monolithic PNP ?

piglet

[bitrex]

Can we somehow trade the baby boomer generation to have those guys back?

[Joseph Gwinn]

On Dec 6, 2019, bitrex wrote
(in article <8RlGF.134510$P37.1...@fx33.iad>):

> On 12/6/19 12:09 AM, Rick C wrote:
> > On Thursday, December 5, 2019 at 11:44:10 PM UTC-5, bitrex wrote:
> > > On 12/5/19 11:31 PM, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> > > > On Thu, 5 Dec 2019 23:07:45 -0500, bitrex<us...@example.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On 12/5/19 10:56 PM, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Thu, 5 Dec 2019 18:44:08 -0800 (PST), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Thursday, December 5, 2019 at 5:09:46 PM UTC-8, John Larkin wro

e:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Yikes. The 324 shows visible crossover distortion at 60 Hz!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 'visible' isn't a measure of distortion.
> > > > > > > -3 points, units.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If I can see it on an oscilloscope, it's a lot of distortion.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Seriously, you DO know that class B is better for battery power,
> > > > > > > but class AB or A for distortion?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I know that there are modern RRIO opamps that are faster, use less
> > > > > > power, and have no crossover distortion.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The LM324 is 45 years old. Did Widlar design the 324?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We met Widlar's girlfriend at the bar at the Washington Square Bar a

d
> > > > > > Grille, while he was living in Mexico. She was amazed that anyone ha

> > > > > > heard of him. She didn't know what he did, but had interesting
> > > > > > stories.
> > > > >
> > > > > seems unlikely, the LM324 was released in 1972, Widlar wasn't working
> > > > > for National at the time (unless it was a off-the-record contractor ki

d
> > > > > of deal)
> > > >
> > > > Not exactly off the record.
> > > >
> > > > The GF said that they had a kitchen table with a heavy oilcloth
> > > > tablecloth. There were drawings of chips under it, and she was never
> > > > allowed to see them. He was paranoid about that. A couple of times a
> > > > year, he'd roll them up, fly up to National, and revolutionize linear
> > > > IC design again.
> > > >
> > > > She was worried about his drinking.
> > >
> > > What year was this?
> > >
> > > Regis McKenna apparently said Widlar and Talbert were responsible for
> > > everything National did in the 70s but he left National in '69 according
> > > to my history books so how the fuck would he know.
> > >
> > > my guess is by the mid-late 70s Widlar's best work was behind him he was
> > > too into the booze to be "revolutionizing" anything. if it was all
> > > off-the-record stuff though then who knows. can anyone confirm anything
> > > Widlar did for them for sure from 74-81 other than the LM10?
> >
> > Wasn't he the one who died in his Porche? Compare that to Bob Pease dying
> > in his Beetle. I believe Bob actually died of an aneurysm which made him
> > crash.
>
> The references on wikipedia said Widlar died of a heart attack in Mexico
> while jogging or something. possibly related to his (former?) alcoholism.
>
> Never heard anything about extenuating circumstances in Pease's death
> the ME would be able to determine that I would imagine though?

I attended one of his seminars, and bought Pease´s book on driving safely,
wherein he strongly encourages the wearing of seat belts.

When I read the news articles, one detail leapt out -- he was not wearing his
seat belt. This was while returning from Jim Williams´ funeral, at a winery
(and music venue), and it occurred to me that he may have been somewhat
drunk, given the occasion.

.<https://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/readerschoice/4368147/Analog-
engineering-legend-Bob-Pease-killed-in-car-crash>

.<https://www.latimes.com/local/obituaries/la-me-passings-20110623-
story.html>

Joe Gwinn

[John S]

Whatever the reason, he is a profound loss to the community. I continue
to miss him very much.

[John Larkin]

Not sure, roughly '84 or '85 maybe.

>
>Regis McKenna apparently said Widlar and Talbert were responsible for
>everything National did in the 70s but he left National in '69 according
>to my history books so how the fuck would he know.
>
>my guess is by the mid-late 70s Widlar's best work was behind him he was
>too into the booze to be "revolutionizing" anything. if it was all
>off-the-record stuff though then who knows. can anyone confirm anything
>Widlar did for them for sure from 74-81 other than the LM10?

Wiki has his history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Widlar

Mo may remember. She was there.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

[Bill Martin]

that was James Dean. lyrics from the song: "Along came a spyder, picked
up a rider Took him down the road to eternity"

[Phil Hobbs]

Thanks.

I didn't know that the output could peg high if the negative CM range
was exceeded. Figure 5 reminds me of this:

https://www.xkcd.com/323/

Cheers

Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

[Phil Hobbs]

Widlar worked as a contractor for National for a number of years after
leaving.

[Phil Hobbs]

I bought it too, but it was a turgid mess. Bob's troubleshooting book
is very good, and his early Pease Porridge articles have a lot of fun
stuff too, before he ran out of material and started writing about
freezing his toes while trekking in Nepal. (Not that I've ever gone
trekking in Nepal myself, but it was supposed to be an electronics
column, I thought.)

>
> When I read the news articles, one detail leapt out -- he was not wearing his
> seat belt. This was while returning from Jim Williams´ funeral, at a winery
> (and music venue), and it occurred to me that he may have been somewhat
> drunk, given the occasion.
>
> .<https://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/readerschoice/4368147/Analog-
> engineering-legend-Bob-Pease-killed-in-car-crash>
>
> .<https://www.latimes.com/local/obituaries/la-me-passings-20110623-
> story.html>

Anybody who really wanted to be safer on the road in 2011 would have
been driving a car with front- and side-impact air bags, crumple zones,
and so on. BITD a Beetle offered freedom at the price of danger, but
that tradeoff is long gone.

2011 was a tough year--we lost Bob, Jim, Dennis Ritchie, and my old prof
and mentor Tony Siegman. (He used to post a lot in sci.optics, and some
times here as well, signing his initials AES.)

Memory eternal!

[jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com]

On Fri, 6 Dec 2019 20:12:06 -0500, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:

>On 2019-12-05 14:39, piglet wrote:
>> This 2019 TI app note is interesting to anyone who previously thought
>> they knew the LM324 all ways round:
>>
>> <http://www.ti.com/lit/an/sloa277/sloa277.pdf>
>>
>> piglet
>>
>
>Thanks.
>
>I didn't know that the output could peg high if the negative CM range
>was exceeded. Figure 5 reminds me of this:
>
>https://www.xkcd.com/323/
>
>Cheers
>
>Phil Hobbs

If you pulled one input below ground in the original LM324, and not
much below ground, all four outputs would go crazy.

And railing one output could glitch the other three. Shared current
sources.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

[jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com]

We lost Peter Alfke around that time too, the old-time Xilinx
application guru and FPGA missionary.


>
>Memory eternal!
>
>Phil Hobbs

Pease lived near us and we'd sometimes drive past his house. His front
yard, and the street outside his house, was littered with rusty hulks
of Beetles and Microbusses.

The one he drove was packed with trash, with just enough room on the
drivers' seat for one skinny butt.

[tabb...@gmail.com]

On Friday, 6 December 2019 01:09:46 UTC, John Larkin wrote:

> On Thu, 5 Dec 2019 17:41:56 -0500, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
> >On 12/5/19 2:39 PM, piglet wrote:

> >> This 2019 TI app note is interesting to anyone who previously thought
> >> they knew the LM324 all ways round:
> >>
> >> <http://www.ti.com/lit/an/sloa277/sloa277.pdf>
> >>
> >> piglet
> >>
> >

> >The quad is nearly twice as fast as the dual which I wouldn't have supposed.
> >
> >It's still a great chip for very cost-constrained applications, this
> >little "toy" analog synthesizer aside from the battery boost IC, uP, and
> >digital delay IC the analog audio path is all '324s and discrete
> >transistors.
> >
> ><https://www.guitarcenter.com/Korg/Monotron-Delay-Analog-Ribbon-Synthesizer-1323966670154.gc?source=4WWRWXGP&gclid=CjwKCAiA8qLvBRAbEiwAE_ZzPS9oG3gdQBAnys0juYKVKReR4L041wQ5GSKIaPyybD4hvzw-EGGdNxoCdnMQAvD_BwE>
>

> Yikes. The 324 shows visible crossover distortion at 60 Hz!
>

> But then, some people like distortion.

Some people like to use bias and/or nfb to minimise the distortion to where it's not a problem. Some people just like cheap. I've found the 324 perfectly workable with.

Nice pdf, thanks Piglet.


NT

[Rich S]

On Friday, December 6, 2019 at 3:56:15 AM UTC, jla...@.wrote:
> On Thu, 5 Dec 2019 18:44:08 -0800 (PST), whit3rd <@.>

Tom Fredericksen, I believe. He published an Art of Analog Ic design book
under Nat Semi's catalog. I think Pease mentioned him in one of RAP's
articles, too.

https://www.planetanalog.com/tom-fredericksen-memories-on-the-passing-of-another-silicon-valley-original-innovator/

[Rich S]

I say Fredericksen because he make much use of the LM324
in his book:

https://www.amazon.com/Intuitive-Amps-Basics-Useful-Applications/dp/9997796675

I have a copy somewhere. I'll check when I'm back in the office.

[Rich S]

Confirmed. I finally got my copy back from the person I loaned it to. On the back cover is his bio:
- - - - -
Thomas M. Frederiksen is a linear IC design engineer with National
Semiconductor Corporation, Santa Clara, California. Upon earning his BSEE
degree from California State Polytechnic University at San Luis Obispo, he
started his professional career as a development engineer with the Motorola
Systems Develop ment Laboratory. Subsequently he worked with the
Microelectronics Group at Hughes Semiconductor Division and later became
senior project engineer at Motorola Semiconductor Products Division.
In 1971 Mr. Frederiksen joined his present firm where he developed
custom ICs and standard single-supply building block circuits for automotive
and industrial applications. Today he acts as technical consultant to
National's Linear Design group and enjoys traveling throughout the world as
a leading participant in the company's CMOS and Linear seminars.
Mr. Frederiksen holds more than 40 patents on Iinear ICs and devices,
and is a frequent contributor to professional Iiterature. In 1977 he received
the International Solid State Circuits Conference Best Paper Award. He also
designed the Quad Amps LM3900, LM324, and LM339. The LM324 is today's most
popular Op Amp.
His first book, Intuitive IC Electronics (McGraw-Hill, 1982), has been
followed by Intuitive IC Op Amps and Intuitive IC CMOS Evolution. All are
part of National's Semiconductor Technology Series. Mr. Frederiksen is
currently working on a four book series on the basics of Iinear and digital
electronics which he expects to complete in Iate 1984.
- - - - -

[speff]

This paper:

Russell, R. W., & Frederiksen, T. M. (1972). Automotive and industrial electronic building blocks. IEEE Journal of Solid-State Circuits, 7(6), 446–454 describes the LM324 design in some detail.

Manuscript received April 14, 1972; revised July 6, 1972

They also acknowledge as follows:

The authors wish to credit J. E. Solomon for providing the new gm reduction technique, E. L. Long for contributing to the design of the IC NPN power transistor with excellent safe operating area, D. Culmer for assisting in circuit development and evaluation, and finally B. Owens and A. Smith for the IC layout design.

Jung mentions both authors in his "Op Amp Applications Handbook".

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

[speff]

That paper is well worth a read. The LM339 is also discussed (essentially the same front end as the LM324).. neither by name. They used mutant multi-collector transistors to reduce gm to permit a much smaller compensation cap (5pF rather than 30-50 pF, thus saving ~1000-1800 mil^2 per die. They also discuss the bias block and startup (both of which are hidden in the simplified schematic shown on the datasheet).

The ballasted NPN transistor with a good SOA was used in a third part that I don't recall seeing at the time. Essentially the very simple LM339/LM324 front end with a power stage. And it sounds like they coupled **two** front ends to each output stage (so 4 front ends and two output NPN darlingtons capable of a few hundred mA and driving a large-ish incandescent lamp with the large surge. And it would have been in a DIP-14.

Anyone remember a bipolar part like that? It's much simpler than the later LM311 type parts.

https://i.imgur.com/MDOkMTB.png

They at least made one run because they have a die photo.

https://i.imgur.com/QuArRpx.png

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

[George Herold]

By 'this paper' do you mean the short one by Russel and Frederiksen

https://vdocuments.net/ieee-1972-ieee-international-solid-state-circuits-conference-philadelphia-58da3cde61d3b.html

(I was able to download a copy.)

George H.

I also found this along the way.
https://www.ece.ucsb.edu/Faculty/rodwell/Classes/ece2c/resources/an-a.pdf

[speff]

The one I have is 9 pages long.

> George H.
>
> I also found this along the way.
> https://www.ece.ucsb.edu/Faculty/rodwell/Classes/ece2c/resources/an-a.pdf
> >

Interesting, will read later.

> > Best regards,
> > Spehro Pefhany

[Winfield Hill]

speff wrote...
>
>> On Monday, February 24, 2020, speff wrote:
>>
>> https://vdocuments.net/ieee-1972-ieee-international-solid-state-circuits-=
>conference-philadelphia-58da3cde61d3b.html
>
> The one I have is 9 pages long.=20

It's their 1972 Journal of Solid-State Circuits paper.
There's a copy on DropBox in the Frederiksen folder.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/t27kt0zjnxo8a3p/AABRbcodOSEzxyBUaikzic1ia?dl=0


--
Thanks,
- Win

[George Herold]

Ditto,
or
Thanks Win.