On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 4:56:51 PM UTC+11, Flyguy wrote:
> On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 2:54:31 AM UTC-8, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 5:49:33 PM UTC+11, Flyguy wrote:
> > > On Thursday, February 2, 2023 at 8:15:01 PM UTC-8,
bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> > > > On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 4:21:47 AM UTC+11, Flyguy wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday, February 2, 2023 at 3:03:16 AM UTC-8,
bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> > > > > > On Thursday, February 2, 2023 at 6:09:27 PM UTC+11, Flyguy wrote:
> > > > > > > On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 9:47:46 PM UTC-8,
bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 7:34:35 AM UTC+11, Flyguy wrote:
<snip>
> > The surface temperature of the earth is an average. El Nino events push it up, La Nina events lower it. The mutildecadal Atlantic cycle, is more of the same, but with a longer period.
> >
> > Idiots like you got excited when the very intense 1998 El Nino meant that there wasn't any visible global warming for the next few years.
> >
> > It was still going on, but swamped by the shorter term noise on the signal.
>
> Idiots like you can't SPELL or THINK!
How would you know? Your spell checker will show up my typo's, but you clearly need that kind of help with thinking, and it's very clear that you don't get it.
> > > > This isn't the first time I've drawn that web-site (
https://history.aip.org/climate/index.htm) to his attention. It took me a while to work through it. and it's probably more technically demanding than he can manage.
> > > >
> > > > > > > Solar cells AREN'T the "lowest" power generator WHEN you factor in the standby power necessary to provide power during the EIGHTEEN hours the sun isn't shining.
> > > > > > So where's your costed calculation of the additional cost of buying the storage capacity and keeping it maintained? Wind turbines don't provide power all the tine either, but the wind has been known to blow when the sun isn't shining.
> > > > >
> > > > > Just WHERE do you think the power comes from during the 18 hours that the Sun isn't shining? ALL solar and wind power needs a backup generator because of their unreliability. And a good part of that backup is COAL-FIRED plants.
As Fred Bloggs has pointed out, renewable energy sources are intermittent, rather than unreliable. The intermittent nature of the supply is tolerably predictable perfectly managable.
> > > > Gas-fired power plants are preferred for backup - they can start up a lot faster. Batteries are even faster, and fast enough to be useful for phase control - about half of the Hornsdale reserve (see below) is used just for that, and that job pays about ten times as well as buying up power from the grid when it is cheap and selling it back to grid in the evening when people will pay more for it.
> > > Bill ADMITS that so-called renewables NEED BACKUP! What he DOESN'T admit that this cost IS NOT factored into their cost of production.
Everybody knows that solar cells and win turbines need grid storage. Why Sewage Sweeper imagines that this isn't factored into the cost of installing them escapes me. Popular web-sites on the subject don't go into that - it complicates the presentation.
> > Isn't it? the utility companies in Australia are investing a lot in solar farms and wind turbines, and they aren't going bust. My guess would be that they would have figured in the costs of providing back-up power. Nobody seems to talk about it explicitly - this at least does mention it.
> They aren't going bust because of A LOT of government subsidies.
They don't get any subsidies in Australia - the previous government subsidised the fossil fuel extraction industies, and those subsidies are still being rolled back.
People who put solar panels on the roof of their house used to get subsidised, but all thew web sites that talk about that are date back to 2017 and earlier
They are being solved right now. The Hornsdale Power Reserve was the first grid scale battery, but are now others, and the Snowy 2.O pumped storage scheme is going to take a couple of years to get up and running, but it is being worked on right now.
https://www.snowyhydro.com.au/snowy-20/about/
> > > > > > The Australian utilities don't seem to be put off by it - though they haven't installed much grid storage yet. What they have installed pays for itself by buying up power when it is cheap (when the sun is shining) and selling to back when power is more expensive. Since you can only sell back about 85% of what you buy, the day night differential has to be bigger than that.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornsdale_Power_Reserve
> > > > >
> > > > > Batteries are an EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE backup method, between $150 and $250 per KWh. By way of comparison I buy power where I live at the rate of $0.08 per KWh.
> > > > >
> > > > >
https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy21osti/79236.pdf
> > > >
> > > > That $150 to $250 per KWm.hour is capital cost per unit capacity. You do have to pay interest on it.
> > >
> > > Your $0.08 per kW.hour is what you pay for the power you consume. That capital cost is low enough that Hornsdale more than pays it's interest charges by buying up power from the grid during the day, when it is cheap and selling ti back to the grid during the night, when people will pay more for it.
> > >
> > > That $0.08 per KWh INCLUDES ALL COSTS, capital, interest and operational.
> > >
> > > HELLO! Interest is the LARGEST COST!!
> > So what.
>
> So, it is called ECONOMICS, you dolt.
And you don't understand it at all. After all, you did confuse the capital cost of what you would pay for for a kW.hour of battery capacity with what you do pay for a kW.hour of power.
> > But you did confuse capital cost with running cost which does emphasise - once again - that you are an idiot.
> > > >
https://www.entura.com.au/batteries-vs-pumped-storage-hydropower-a-place-for-both/
> > > >
> > > > "Pumped hydro boasts a very low price per megawatt hour, ranging from about $200/MWh to $260/MWh. Currently, battery costs range from $350/MWh to nearly $1000/MWh, with this cost reducing rapidly (costs reduced by about 25% during 2016)."
> >
> > > I have ALREADY addressed pumped hydro - it is VERY LIMITED because of the large landmass and water it requires.
But still useful.
> > > > Batteries are rapidly getting cheaper.
> > >
> > > Hey Bozo, I ALREADY presented data on that - they AREN'T getting cheaper by much.
>
> > You do misunderstand and misrepresent the data that you do find. You haven't presented it here, so we can't work out how you've got it wrong this time.
>
> I DID present and you DIDN'T understand it, Bozo.
You ideas about what you might have presented sometime in the past are as confused and unreliable as your ideas about what the data meant.
Find the link again, or shut up.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney