On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 4:21:47 AM UTC+11, Flyguy wrote:
> On Thursday, February 2, 2023 at 3:03:16 AM UTC-8, bill....@ieee.org
> > On Thursday, February 2, 2023 at 6:09:27 PM UTC+11, Flyguy wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 9:47:46 PM UTC-8, bill....@ieee.org
> > > > On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 7:34:35 AM UTC+11, Flyguy wrote:
> > > > > In short, central planning is like incest: genetic diseases flourish by suppressing all contrary viewpoints, no matter how well-founded.
> > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yW9JEPSJQOs
> > > > > The US exhibits much of this in its non-scientific efforts to ineffectively manipulate the climate by government edict.
> > > > This is actually just Sewage Sweeper being terminally confused. There's nothing wrong with central planning as such - the Manhattan project was centrally planned - but it can go easily wrong if the people doing the planning aren't up to the job. A dictatorial military regime such as North Korea is more likely to get it wrong than most. They are much more likely to persist in doing the wrong thing, because pointing out that some aspect of the plan isn't working right can lead to extremely severe sanctions.
> > > >
> > > > Dealing with the unfortunate consequences of human induced climate change doesn't actually call for central planning - we just have to stop burning fossil carbon as fuel as fast as possible. Since solar cells and wind turbines both generate electricity more cheaply that burning fossil carbon, we can rely on the free market to do that for us. It isn't doing it as fast as it might, and a little centrally planned encouragement to get it to happen faster isn't out of place - what we lose on junking coal- and gas-fired generating plant before it wears out, we win back by having fewer expensive weather disasters.
> > > >
> > > > Bozo's Sewage Sweeper is much to dim to know that solar cells and wind turbines are the cheapest sources of electric power - it's only been true for about the last ten years, and he hasn't learned anything in that time. He not to too dim to read climate change denial propaganda which does tend to skate over this point.
> > >
> > > Bozo keeps DENYING that the climate manipulation ISN'T centrally organized, even though it obviously is. California is MANDATING that ALL cars be electric - how is this NOT central planning?
> > It's more centrally planned encouragement than anything more. They aren't actually mandating that all cars be electric, merely that you will eventually have to replace your car with an electric car if you replace it after a certain date.
> LOL! Bozo obviously doesn't know anything about what is happening in CA - no, it is NOT optional; it is REQUIRED:
Will be required after 2035, always assuming that Calfornia will still be there in 2035.
> > Sewage Sweeper can 't get it into his head that climate change is real and happening, and needs to be slowed down and eventually reversed. Science is international, but it isn't centrally controlled.
> Again, climate change IS NOT the result of human activity. Bozo can't show a SINGLE scientific source that PROVES increases in CO2 DIRECTLY affects global temperatures in any significant way. In fact we had three decades of global cooling even as CO2 concentrations increased.
I obviously can't show a single scientific study which would persuade Sewage Sweeper - mere facts don't influence him.
does actually go through a bunch of influential papers that persuaded the scientific community - of which Sewage Sweeper isn't a member - that anthropogenic global warming was real. The "three decades of cooling" that Sewage Sweeper refers to are the cooler part of the roughly sixty year multidecal Atlantic cycle (like El Nino but slower) which only got noticed in 1994. Anthropogenic global warning only only emerged from that kind of background noise in the 1990's after the atmospheric CO2 level had hit 350 ppm (up from the natural interglacial 270 ppm). It's now at 412 ppm.
This isn't the first time I've drawn that web-site to his attention. It took me a while to work through it. and it's probably more technically demanding than he can manage.
> > > Solar cells AREN'T the "lowest" power generator WHEN you factor in the standby power necessary to provide power during the EIGHTEEN hours the sun isn't shining.
> > So where's your costed calculation of the additional cost of buying the storage capacity and keeping it maintained? Wind turbines don't provide power all the tine either, but the wind has been known to blow when the sun isn't shining.
> Just WHERE do you think the power comes from during the 18 hours that the Sun isn't shining? ALL solar and wind power needs a backup generator because of their unreliability. And a good part of that backup is COAL-FIRED plants.
Gas-fired power plants are preferred for backup - they can start up a lot faster. Batteries are even faster, and fast enough to be useful for phase control - about half of the Hornsdale reserve (see below) is used just for that, and that job pays about ten times as well as buying up power from the grid when it is cheap and selling it back to grid in the evening when peopie will pay more for it
> > The Australian utilities don't seem to be put off by it - though they haven't installed much grid storage yet. What they have installed pays for itself by buying up power when it is cheap (when the sun is shining) and selling to back when power is more expensive. Since you can only sell back about 85% of what you buy, the day night differential has to be bigger than that.
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornsdale_Power_Reserve
> Batteries are an EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE backup method, between $150 and $250 per KWh. By way of comparison I buy power where I live at the rate of $0.08 per KWh.
That $150 to $250 per KWm.hour is capital cost per unit capacity. You do have to pay interest on it. Your $0.08 per kW.hour is what you pay for the power you consume. That capital cost is low enough that Hornsdale more than pays it's interest charges by buying up power from the grid during the day, when it is cheap and selling ti back to the grid during the night, when people will pay more for it.
"Pumped hydro boasts a very low price per megawatt hour, ranging from about $200/MWh to $260/MWh. Currently, battery costs range from $350/MWh to nearly $1000/MWh, with this cost reducing rapidly (costs reduced by about 25% during 2016)."
Batteries are rapidly getting cheaper
> > > How could Bill be SO IGNORANT?
> > Not knowing the kinds of "fact" that Sewage Sweeper asserts - without support - isn't ignorance. It just involves having the kind of grasp of reality that Sewage Sweeper lacks. The real question is how Sewage Sweeper stays so ignorant when he keeps on getting reminded that he doesn't know much and a lot of what he thinks he knows happens to be wrong
<snipped more of the usual drivel>
Bill Sloman, Sydney