Guitar MIDI controller/converter - bitrex?

[Don Y]

Advice on good ("respectable") candidates for the above?
Not keen on a guitar-wannabe "instrument"...

(Also, not keen on anything that will not be able to
completely restore axe to original condition when no
longer needed/wanted)

[bitrex]

If you want to add a thing to add to a regular electric guitar to get
polyphonic MIDI output without modifying the guitar significantly I
think it limits the options to something like the hex pickups you can
non-destructively mount:

<https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/GK3--roland-gk-3-divided-pickup>

Then you'll need something to convert the hex signal to MIDI output and
there are solutions that come with sounds and some without e.g. this
package:

<https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/GR55BK--roland-gr-55-guitar-synth-with-gk-3-pickup>

Different companies have made a number of boxes like that over the years
in pedal and rackmount form. I have a Yamaha G50 rack unit that you can
plug the Roland hex pickup into it's just a MIDI converter, no onboard
sounds. It's about 25 years old but still works very well with pretty
low latency when you get it adjusted, IIRC the selling point at the time
is that it uses a neural network to detect notes before a full cycle has
elapsed; even on the low E of a guitar (much less a bass) if you wait a
whole cycle it introduces objectionable latency. I expect nowadays the
good systems all have their own proprietary algorithms for that.

There are probably other systems that's just the setup I'm most familiar
with.

GraphTech makes an all-in-one where the hex pickup is integrated into a
hard tail or Floyd Rose bridge and you can add a piezo amplifier for
pseudo-acoustic sounds and/or a hex driver for MIDI conversion
internally to the guitar. that can be an expensive way to go, the
bespoke Floyd Rose is almost $300 and the electronics is another $300,
kinda absurd for what you get which is a bare PCB with pin-headers and
about $5 worth of components:

<https://graphtech.com/products/ghost-hexpander-preamp-kit>

[bitrex]

On 1/6/22 12:29 PM, bitrex wrote:
> On 1/6/22 11:50 AM, Don Y wrote:
>> Advice on good ("respectable") candidates for the above?
>> Not keen on a guitar-wannabe "instrument"...
>>
>> (Also, not keen on anything that will not be able to
>> completely restore axe to original condition when no
>> longer needed/wanted)
>
> If you want to add a thing to add to

Pardon my butchery of English there but I just flew in from Michigan
(and boy are my arms tired!) They're gonna get 20 inches of snow total
out there in spots, fun times. What the hell happened in VA? They got
like 4 inches and everything went nuts. They don't even cancel
elementary school for 4 inches up here...

[Don Y]

On 1/6/2022 10:29 AM, bitrex wrote:
> On 1/6/22 11:50 AM, Don Y wrote:
>> Advice on good ("respectable") candidates for the above?
>> Not keen on a guitar-wannabe "instrument"...
>>
>> (Also, not keen on anything that will not be able to
>> completely restore axe to original condition when no
>> longer needed/wanted)
>
> If you want to add a thing to add to a regular electric guitar to get
> polyphonic MIDI output without modifying the guitar significantly I think it
> limits the options to something like the hex pickups you can non-destructively
> mount:

But, are they truly nondestructive? Some seem to rely on adhesives and
I'm not sure folks USING adhesives ever really think of them "long term"
(residue, staining, etc.)

I've also seen a product or two that look at the *audio* and try to reconstruct
the fingering from that. Theoretically possible but a fair bit of work to
accomplish in real-time. Not sure how that latency stacks up with the
rest of the processing chain...

> Then you'll need something to convert the hex signal to MIDI output and there
> are solutions that come with sounds and some without e.g. this package:

No need for synth; just treat the instrument as an "input device with a
familiar feel".

> Different companies have made a number of boxes like that over the years in
> pedal and rackmount form. I have a Yamaha G50 rack unit that you can plug the
> Roland hex pickup into it's just a MIDI converter, no onboard sounds. It's
> about 25 years old but still works very well with pretty low latency when you
> get it adjusted, IIRC the selling point at the time is that it uses a neural
> network to detect notes before a full cycle has elapsed; even on the low E of a
> guitar (much less a bass) if you wait a whole cycle it introduces objectionable
> latency. I expect nowadays the good systems all have their own proprietary
> algorithms for that.

I imagine some of the guitar-wannabes can play tricks that aren't
feasible with a real guitar. OTOH, it's hard not to interfere with the
"feel" -- even if only approximated.

(Driving a car and driving a car in a video game -- using a cheesy
steering wheel controller and foot pedals -- are entirely different
experiences!)

> There are probably other systems that's just the setup I'm most familiar with.
>
> GraphTech makes an all-in-one where the hex pickup is integrated into a hard
> tail or Floyd Rose bridge and you can add a piezo amplifier for pseudo-acoustic
> sounds and/or a hex driver for MIDI conversion internally to the guitar. that
> can be an expensive way to go, the bespoke Floyd Rose is almost $300 and the
> electronics is another $300, kinda absurd for what you get which is a bare PCB
> with pin-headers and about $5 worth of components:

Yeah, I suspect there is a fair bit of "overhead" in these products
as none of the companies appear to be The Next Apple (in terms of
profits).

Thanks, I'll look into the items/technologies you mentioned.

[Don Y]

Wait until you try someplace that NEVER (super rarely and never more than
a dusting) has snow! Even the folks who've moved here from places north
seem to have forgotten how to deal with it!

And, it's laughable to watch folks wearing *gloves* when it's above freezing!
(Hey, it's not cold if the temperature is a positive number!)

[I've never worn more than a T-shirt/jeans -- unless I'm out, overnight,
watching meteor showers. (Though I *will* put on shoes when it dips below
40F and *pants* if I'm in the front yard...)]

OTOH, I can remember the first snowfall of the season in Chicagoland would have
folks in a mild panic ("C'mon, folks, you saw this 8-9 months ago. Nothing
has changed in that time..."). Silly midwesterners!

Strangely, this wasn't the case in Denver. Folks took the coming and
going of snow in stride. But, I suspect most of them had more varied
experiences in it than the flatlanders.

[bitrex]

On 1/6/2022 1:02 PM, Don Y wrote:
> On 1/6/2022 10:29 AM, bitrex wrote:
>> On 1/6/22 11:50 AM, Don Y wrote:
>>> Advice on good ("respectable") candidates for the above?
>>> Not keen on a guitar-wannabe "instrument"...
>>>
>>> (Also, not keen on anything that will not be able to
>>> completely restore axe to original condition when no
>>> longer needed/wanted)
>>
>> If you want to add a thing to add to a regular electric guitar to get
>> polyphonic MIDI output without modifying the guitar significantly I
>> think it limits the options to something like the hex pickups you can
>> non-destructively mount:
>
> But, are they truly nondestructive?  Some seem to rely on adhesives and
> I'm not sure folks USING adhesives ever really think of them "long term"
> (residue, staining, etc.)

It depends on the finish perhaps I probably wouldn't stick it on vintage
lacquer or nitro finish or something. The modern commercial polyurethane
guitar finishes are rugged as hell I've never myself had a residue
problem sticking anything to a poly finish with that double-sided foam
tape temporarily, but I haven't done like a multi-year controlled study
or anything.

Pretty much any gunk you get on a poly finish will come off with the
appropriate solvent and some buffing; even superglue residue as neither
the adhesive or the de-bonder seems to noticeably damage a modern poly
finish as far as I can tell.

> I've also seen a product or two that look at the *audio* and try to
> reconstruct
> the fingering from that.  Theoretically possible but a fair bit of work to
> accomplish in real-time.  Not sure how that latency stacks up with the
> rest of the processing chain...

I haven't tried one of those in some time but the last I did I wasn't
impressed. The G50 is reported to have an average latency of about 10 ms
on the low strings and feels pretty acceptable to me (haven't measured
it myself) for guitar playing that's not speed metal riffs at least.

For playing USB keyboards though, like with virtual instruments, it has
to be lower than that, I find around 2ms is about what I can tolerate, I
can tell the difference between a 2ms response and a 5 ms, and 10 ms
starts to feel like an eternity.

[bitrex]

On 1/6/2022 2:50 PM, bitrex wrote:
> On 1/6/2022 1:02 PM, Don Y wrote:
>> On 1/6/2022 10:29 AM, bitrex wrote:
>>> On 1/6/22 11:50 AM, Don Y wrote:
>>>> Advice on good ("respectable") candidates for the above?
>>>> Not keen on a guitar-wannabe "instrument"...
>>>>
>>>> (Also, not keen on anything that will not be able to
>>>> completely restore axe to original condition when no
>>>> longer needed/wanted)
>>>
>>> If you want to add a thing to add to a regular electric guitar to get
>>> polyphonic MIDI output without modifying the guitar significantly I
>>> think it limits the options to something like the hex pickups you can
>>> non-destructively mount:
>>
>> But, are they truly nondestructive?  Some seem to rely on adhesives and
>> I'm not sure folks USING adhesives ever really think of them "long term"
>> (residue, staining, etc.)
>
> It depends on the finish perhaps I probably wouldn't stick it on vintage
> lacquer or nitro finish or something.

Acrylic lacquer or nitrocellulose lacquer, rather, before some pedant
gets all up on me :)

[Don Y]

On 1/6/2022 12:50 PM, bitrex wrote:
>> I've also seen a product or two that look at the *audio* and try to reconstruct
>> the fingering from that. Theoretically possible but a fair bit of work to
>> accomplish in real-time. Not sure how that latency stacks up with the
>> rest of the processing chain...
>
> I haven't tried one of those in some time but the last I did I wasn't
> impressed. The G50 is reported to have an average latency of about 10 ms on the
> low strings and feels pretty acceptable to me (haven't measured it myself) for
> guitar playing that's not speed metal riffs at least.
>
> For playing USB keyboards though, like with virtual instruments, it has to be
> lower than that, I find around 2ms is about what I can tolerate, I can tell the
> difference between a 2ms response and a 5 ms, and 10 ms starts to feel like an
> eternity.

Well, at least there is an explicit (industry-wide) acknowledgement that there
is a significant issue, there. And, attempts to put a number on it. Too many
other interfaces just leave that unspoken -- /caveat emptor/.

I question whether the physical-virtual instruments ("funky UI's that try to
LOOSELY resemble a real instrument") end up altering *how* you play. The
"physical presence" of an instrument seems to be a part of the performance
experience; would a "sousaphone emulator" (that you can hold in one hand)
*play* like a real sousaphone? Even if the emulator was a 100% faithful
reproduction...

[John Walliker]

How about a pneumatically controlled pipe organ in a large church where
the latency could be around 200ms?

John

[Don Y]

Most wind instruments have high latency -- esp if excited by
human breath.

My above comment was wrt the *feel* of the instrument-wannabe vs. the
real instrument. What's it like to play a "little box with a mouthpiece"
that emulates a tuba vs. having to carry the tuba on your shoulders
while trying to summon up enough air to excite it? Does the little
box represent the same "impedance" to your windpipe as the genuine
article? Do you have to move the same amount of air to produce a
particular sound?

[I.e., playing trills on a trumpet is a piece of cake compared to
a trombone, baritone horn, etc. Does a trombone-emulator present
the same PHYSICAL playing challenges as a real trombone?]

[Rich S]

Yeah, Pat Metheny is one well known user of the
Roland guitar synth setup...
https://equipboard.com/pros/pat-metheny?gear=effects-pedals

= RS

[Rich S]

Latency is hard to avoid unless youre putting a pressure sensor right
at the stimulus point. For a guitar, that would be under each fret
position, for each string. i.e. ~15 x 6 = 90 sensors.
Not use how to do *that*, reversably & non destructively.
and while not interefering with normal acoustics, ergonomics,
etc. = RS

[Don Y]

But *players* of particular instruments already have a "feel" for
the inherent characteristics of an instrument and adjust their
play, accordingly. Change that "feel" (because you're using an
approximation of the instrument) and your "play" changes, as well.

E.g., The basics of playing any horn are similar. Yet, the actual
results vary considerably as the physics of the instrument vary (e.g.,
with size, required air volume, etc).

I'd imagine playing a ukulele to be significantly different than
a double bass.

[Rich S]

Sure, most acoustical instruments have an inherent acousto-
mechanical "latency" and ergonomic factors that set a upper-
limit on fluent note change. You could retrofit one
of these types with electronics that make it outperform
the original instrument. :-) For a horn (lip-vibrated aero-
phone), we could trigger on finger- or other actions, and
not rely on the lip-buzz.
cheers, RS

[Don Y]

Yes, but the point of "instrumenting" an instrument is to
record your *current* playing proficiency. Change the way the
instrument plays/"feels" and do you end up turning a prodigy
into a neophyte? The instrument is an integral part of the
performance, alongside the performer.

[bitrex]

> position, for each string. i.e. ~15 x 6 It sensors.

> Not use how to do *that*, reversably & non destructively.
> and while not interefering with normal acoustics, ergonomics,
> etc. = RS
>

It's been done before, you don't really need strings at all once you do
that. But that ends up becoming a new type of instrument that you have
to learn, more like a strange keyboard instrument or high-tek accordion
than a guitar.

The hex pickups + good MIDI conversion boxes/algorithms let you do the
usual stuff you can do with a guitar with real strings like string
bends, slides, hammer ons and pull-offs and often can interpret those
string-specific techniques reasonably successfully, it still feels like
you're playing a guitar for the most part

[bitrex]

It's pretty remarkable what can be done with physical modeling synthesis
of wind instruments and a breath controller nowadays:

<https://youtu.be/YJr9rmrMVpU>

[Kevin Aylward]

"Rich S" wrote in message
news:fa1c2bfe-a14c-419e...@googlegroups.com...

Oh dear....er.... that will be 24 x 6 mate..... :-)


Kevin Aylward

https://www.kevinaylward.co.uk/gr/index.html
http://www.anasoft.co.uk/ SuperSpice
http://www.kevinaylward.co.uk/ee/index.html

[Don Y]

Actually, "depends on the guitar"...

[DecadentLinux...@decadence.org]

Don Y <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote in news:sr76lj$6qo$1@dont-
email.me:

Do not know what you want but I have found the best tuner app there
is.
It has voice analysis too, and we're talking down to fine grain tonal
resolution.

It is called: TE Tuner
It has a metronome, it has different instrument envelopes. I set it
to sawtooth and get FOOL spectrum. ;-) Actually that widens it out
past all the instruments it has in it. Very exacting, useful item.

I also have the Moog apps. WOW. A full bore synth right in my
hands!
So many sounds in it that one recognizes from movies and music of the
past.

I also paid the $25 whatever for "Garage Band" which is also
awesome.

The Moog and the iPad app Garage Band have midi stuff in them. I
am sure the Moog will let you feed in your stuff, modify it and feed
it back out.

Anyway. I just wanted to mention the tuner. That is an excellent
application for apple hardware. I do not know if it is on other
platforms.

[DecadentLinux...@decadence.org]

John Walliker <jrwal...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:81d213ab-6625-4b63...@googlegroups.com:

snip

> How about a pneumatically controlled pipe organ in a large church
> where the latency could be around 200ms?
>
> John
>

Not always in a church...

<https://friendsofmusichall.org/cincinnati-music-hall-history/music-
halls-organs/the-albee-mighty-wurlitzer-organ-in-music-hall/>

<https://organstoppizza.com/the-pipe-organ/history>

[DecadentLinux...@decadence.org]

Don Y <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote in

news:ss7adv$uf$1...@dont-email.me:

Don't you fret none... Frets! We don' need no stinkin' frets!

3 x what!???

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9-ltPsbw9g>

[DecadentLinux...@decadence.org]

Don Y <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote in news:ss7adv$uf$1@dont-
email.me:

> Actually, "depends on the guitar"...
>
>

As I sat and read through all of these comments I listened to
Justin Wilson in the background...

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9-ltPsbw9g>

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

https://youtu.be/50-8PGMPYrA

[DecadentLinux...@decadence.org]

DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote in
news:ss7p1r$fec$1...@gioia.aioe.org:

> Don Y <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote in
> news:sr76lj$6qo$1@dont- email.me:

snip

> Do not know what you want but I have found the best tuner app
> there is.
> It has voice analysis too, and we're talking down to fine grain
> tonal resolution.
>
> It is called: TE Tuner
> It has a metronome, it has different instrument envelopes. I set
> it to sawtooth and get FOOL spectrum. ;-) Actually that widens
> it out past all the instruments it has in it. Very exacting,
> useful item.
>
> I also have the Moog apps. WOW. A full bore synth right in my
> hands!
> So many sounds in it that one recognizes from movies and music of
> the past.
>
> I also paid the $25 whatever for "Garage Band" which is also
> awesome.
>
> The Moog and the iPad app Garage Band have midi stuff in them.
> I
> am sure the Moog will let you feed in your stuff, modify it and
> feed it back out.
>
> Anyway. I just wanted to mention the tuner. That is an
> excellent
> application for apple hardware. I do not know if it is on other
> platforms.
>

Has anyone checked this out? It really is one of the best tuner
apps out there. <https://www.tonalenergy.com/>

[徐鑫]

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