Neon transformers suitable for Jacob's Ladder?
Roque
voltage novelty experiments like mostly Jacob's Ladder? I have the 1995
electronic's now article that shows a 12000 volt 40ma supply schematic for
one, but I'm wondering about all those highly available (Ebay) 6000 or so
volt ones at 30ma....Would those work?
Tom Luttrell
however if they are from microwave ovens, be careful, I don't think
that they can be short circuited (via arcing and sparking) without
modification. See,
alt.energy.high-voltage
and
for more info.
Antispam email address: please remove [.antispam] to reply
http://www.users.bigpond.com/tom.lut/
The.Central.Scru...@invalid.pobox.com
>If they are neon sign transformers then they certainly would work,
>however if they are from microwave ovens, be careful, I don't think
>that they can be short circuited (via arcing and sparking) without
>modification. See,
>
What would a neon sign transformer be doing in a microwave oven?
Tom Luttrell
microwave oven transformers.
Al
wrote:
I use the ignition transformer from a discarded oil burner. Works great.
Spark starts at one quarter inch and gets to about one and one quarter
inches. Satisfying enough.
You can get one at you local recycling center (dump) for nothing when the
old oil burners are scrapped.
EMI everywhere, so don't run it too long or you'll have planes landing in
your yard.
Al
--
Remove * from the address to reply.
Roque
<fru6itg3g2hju4jlk...@4ax.com>:
>I was not sure if the items on ebay he was talking about were NSTs or
>microwave oven transformers.
>
Yeah I was reading a site yesterday that explained how microwave oven
transformers wouldn't be short circuit protected/current limited the way
neon transformers would, and then causing a spark would be a bad idea in
such a case...
Fortunately I have always had a fear of anything above maybe 40 volts so
I'm very careful...I once had a 44 volt transformer when I was about 12
years old and I got a little tingle out of it when I plugged it in and was
wiring it to a light and touching it....I always hated having to plug
anything into 120v If I put it together myself too.
I have a laser 3KV power supply I made from a magazine and I also got a
nice little buzz from that once...that's how I discovered that electrical
tape is only good for insulating up to about 300v....
But that was high school days, now I'm a college and university graduate
and have an engineering job...and am ready to move on to the big
time...NEON signs! I always wanted to make tesla coils, jacob's ladder,
etc.
One thing I read somewhere yesterday is if the neon circuits are more high
tech and have filtering, there will be no 60Hz neat sounds like those old
black and white movies that had jacob's ladders and that nice electricity
sound.
I won't know what I get until I try it out I guess.
Roque
>EMI everywhere, so don't run it too long or you'll have planes landing
>in your yard.
>
I definitely then wouldn't try this at my workplace - it's near the airport
and it already looks like planes are going to land in the parking lot when
they're coming in!
John Woodgate
ome.com>, The.Central.Scru...@invalid.pobox.com inimitably
wrote:
Drying out?
--
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Fax +44 (0)1268 777124. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Why not call a vertically-
applied manulo-pedally-operated quasi-planar chernozem-penetrating and
excavating implement a SPADE?
John Fields
> I have a laser 3KV power supply I made from a magazine...
---
Now _there's_ a trick!
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El Presidente Austin, Republic of Texas
"I speak for my company" http://www.austininstruments.com
Gregory Danner
designed to limit the short-circuit current, and this is exactly what
you need for a Jacob's ladder. One or the other of these devices is
the traditional way to power a jacob's ladder.
Another secret for a successful Jacob's ladder is to have the whole
"ladder" section enclosed in a 4" or 5" diameter clear plastic tube.
The arc rises more smoothly and looks a lot better if there aren't any
drafts or air turbulence around it.
When the spark (ionized air) first starts up at the bottom of the
ladder rods, the short distance between the two rods will keep the
voltage drop across the arc pretty small (might be only a couple of
hundred volts, I don't remember what the voltage drop per inch of
IONIZED air is). As the arc heats the air and starts rising, and the
rods are farther apart, you need more and more voltage to keep the arc
fired up.
So, you need a transformer with a high "open-circuit" voltage but a
fairly low "short circuit current." By design, neon sign transformers
and oil burner ignition transformers both provide this limited short
circuit current.
On the other hand, the biggest problem with a microwave oven
transformer is that it doesnt' have any built in "current limiting."
At the bottom of the jacob's ladder, there would be enough current
flow to blow a line fuse on a microwave transformer. And the open
circuit voltage probably isn't quite high enough either for the "top
end" of the jacob's ladder rods where you need a lot of voltage to
keep the arc fired up. I suppose an alternative would be to have some
sort of current limiting device in series with the microwave
transformer, such as a 300 watt 120 volt light bulb or something
similar. Tesla coil builders sometimes provide their current limiting
with a bunch of electric space heaters in series with the main power
transformer. The heaters (just large high power resistors, actually)
act as a "ballast" or current limiting device. You still wouldn't get
a high enough open circuit voltage with a microwave oven power
transformer. The secondary voltage of a microwave transformer is
usually only about 1,500 volts, and the combination of the solid-state
rectifier diode, capacitor, and magnatron itself form a VOLTAGE
DOUBLER circuit. I don't know if keeping the capacitor and diode
would be effective or functional in a jacob's ladder application to
get the peak voltage up high enough to work. You would still probably
only have about 3,000 volts max. And without the magnatron, which is
actually another diode, I don't think the voltage doubler circuit even
really works at all.
So, I would say get a true neon sign transformer or an oil burner
transformer.
-Greg
Aubrey McIntosh
"John Fields" <jfi...@austininstruments.com> wrote in message
news:3B23D8DC...@austininstruments.com...
> Roque wrote:
>
>
> > I have a laser 3KV power supply I made from a magazine...
>
> ---
>
> Now _there's_ a trick!
>
The real "golden ears" audiophile can tell whether the
page was printed mostly with red ink or green ink.
Bryan Andersen
> > > I have a laser 3KV power supply I made from a magazine...
> > Now _there's_ a trick!
> The real "golden ears" audiophile can tell whether the
> page was printed mostly with red ink or green ink.
Us "platinum ears" can tell you type of ink too... :)
--
| Bryan Andersen | br...@visi.com | http://www.nerdvest.com |
| Buzzwords are like annoying little flies that deserve to be swatted. |
| -Bryan Andersen |
The.Central.Scru...@invalid.pobox.com
>
>> > > I have a laser 3KV power supply I made from a magazine...
>
>> > Now _there's_ a trick!
>
>> The real "golden ears" audiophile can tell whether the
>> page was printed mostly with red ink or green ink.
>
>Us "platinum ears" can tell you type of ink too... :)
And the engineer's name, quest, and favorite color.
Mark Zenier
Gregory Danner <gda...@scitecinc.com> wrote:
>Neon sign transformers or oil burner ignition transformers are both
>designed to limit the short-circuit current, and this is exactly what
>you need for a Jacob's ladder. One or the other of these devices is
>the traditional way to power a jacob's ladder.
Microwave oven transformers are current limited, too. But the
current limit is 200-300 milliamps. So you can get seriously
dead.
Mark Zenier mze...@eskimo.com Washington State resident
The.Central.Scru...@invalid.pobox.com
>In article <1416d989.01061...@posting.google.com>,
>Gregory Danner <gda...@scitecinc.com> wrote:
>>Neon sign transformers or oil burner ignition transformers are both
>>designed to limit the short-circuit current, and this is exactly what
>>you need for a Jacob's ladder. One or the other of these devices is
>>the traditional way to power a jacob's ladder.
>
>Microwave oven transformers are current limited, too. But the
>current limit is 200-300 milliamps. So you can get seriously
>dead.
But how do they behave with a excessive load? A neon sign transformer's voltage
will drop into the low hundreds of volts.
GregS
>In article <1416d989.01061...@posting.google.com>,
>Gregory Danner <gda...@scitecinc.com> wrote:
>>Neon sign transformers or oil burner ignition transformers are both
>>designed to limit the short-circuit current, and this is exactly what
>>you need for a Jacob's ladder. One or the other of these devices is
>>the traditional way to power a jacob's ladder.
>
>Microwave oven transformers are current limited, too. But the
>current limit is 200-300 milliamps. So you can get seriously
>dead.
Used to try those big transformers. I forget what
is best to achieve a less harsh buzzing. A cap here or there??
DC might be nice.
greg
The.Central.Scru...@invalid.pobox.com
From what I hear, DC is a lot deadlier. In any case, I only fire up the
jacob's ladder for halloween so I really don't care about noise.
Coolest holloween was when I had a yamaha DSP-1 surround sound/effects
processor hooked up to a microphone. My favorite effects were 1) pitch bend
down an octave for monster effects 2) pitch bend up an octave for witch's
cackles and 3) the church efector w/ a 3s decay time for ghost cries. Had
kiddies running back to mommy @ the curb. Of course, the jacab's ladder was
sparking away behind the window.
Bruce Clothier
<The.Central.Scru...@invalid.pobox.com> wrote in message >
>>current limit is 200-300 milliamps. So you can get seriously
> >>dead.
> >
Not true. The resistance of your body to current flow is largely capacitive
and so AC is worse. Also, the nervous system is particularly sensitive
to disruption from frequencies around 100Hz, so the frequency of the mains
US or UK ) is perfect for being the
quite dangerous.
BruceC
Andre Buecker
news:Xns90BB90727...@24.2.9.61...
I have a tesla coil I built from an old color TV flyback transformer
which outputs about 25Kv, I built a Jacob's ladder for it and it
worked great, the ladder was about a foot tall, at the bottom, the
arc started at about 1/2 inch wide, and when it ran off the top of
the ladder it was about 3 inches wide, the rods were made of copper
because it's easy to work with, but the ladder quits working when
the copper becomes oxidized, this is due to the arcing and the ozone
gas produced by the arc.
WARNING - These voltages can kill.
I once felt the high voltage output of my coil and am lucky I'm still
alive, once I regained consciousness, I discovered I was on the floor
10 feet away from my workbench unable to move or focus my eyes.
It took about 10 minutes before I was able to regain control of my
muscles and even sit up, the next 3 days felt like the worst hangover
I ever had.
Tom Luttrell
I once got zapped by 6kV from a 20uF capacitor bank in an 8/20uSec
surge generator (used for testing lightning protection). It threw me
about 1.5 meters, and completely cured my hangover. However I put the
cure down to the adrenalin not the current.
On Wed, 13 Jun 2001 23:00:34 GMT, "Andre Buecker"
<andre.buec...@home.com> wrote:
-snip-
>WARNING - These voltages can kill.
>
>I once felt the high voltage output of my coil and am lucky I'm still
>alive, once I regained consciousness, I discovered I was on the floor
>10 feet away from my workbench unable to move or focus my eyes.
>It took about 10 minutes before I was able to regain control of my
>muscles and even sit up, the next 3 days felt like the worst hangover
>I ever had.
>
DRigotti
any been stupid enough to get shocked playing with high voltage?"
Dave
Tom Luttrell
toying with this sort of equipment. Personal accounts tend to be more
effective than general warnings.
Ken
Reminding people for the need to work safely around electricity can
not be repeated enough.
--
Ken Tyler
Alan McClure
Andre Buecker wrote:
>
> WARNING - These voltages can kill.
>
> I once felt the high voltage output of my coil and am lucky I'm still
> alive, once I regained consciousness, I discovered I was on the floor
> 10 feet away from my workbench unable to move or focus my eyes.
> It took about 10 minutes before I was able to regain control of my
> muscles and even sit up, the next 3 days felt like the worst hangover
> I ever had.
Aha! Another data point for my theory that teleportation is possible but
painful.
When I was in high school, my physics teacher and I were examining
(playing with) a ~10kv power supply donated to the school by ma bell.
something reached out and touched me
I yelled
we both blinked
suddenly there were three rows of desks between me and the PS
neither one of us knew how I got there.
the desks seemed to be undisturbed.
hurt like hell all over.
Logic demands that I did a back flip but considering my size, weight,
and general lack of jockosity, its hard to believe.
ARM
Mark W
With that said, a Jacob's ladder in a resonant tube of the proper length
will decrease the upper harmonics and increase the desired tone of say 50 to
60 Hz. Ladders in a tuned tube sound incredibly cool. I have seen a big one
that almost rattles the teeth out of your skull when the arc begins at the
bottom. Quite impressive!
To reduce the noise, put your ladder inside of a clear plexi tube, and put
vents in the top and the bottom to let air flow, even going far enough to
put a blower to keep air circulation going in there. Otherwise heat and
noxious gasses will deteriorate everything in there. You don't need a lot of
air flow, otherwise it will compromise performance of the arc, possibly
blowing it out before it can fully stretch. You can layer several tube ends
with holes at alternating positions to muffle the sound a bit. (Think of a
muffler on a gas engine)
Probably the safest way to make a Jacobs Ladder is to run a large low
voltage DC power supply (12V to 24V at several amps), then invert your
output to 20kHz or more at around 5kV with plenty of current (about 30mA or
more would do) using a TV flyback or specialized HV transformer (which I am
still locating BTW). The higher frequency will produce "skin" effect, where
the current will mostly run on the surface of your body, preventing
electrocution. You can still get NASTY RF burns however, so if you don't
like the stench of burned flesh, stay away from the terminals. The other
advantage to the high frequency is that the sound will be above your
hearing, but maybe not a dog's. A ladder running with the high frequency
runs nice and smooth and mostly quiet, so it can make for an impressive
show!
I was thinking as well, if anybody has tried this or not, have your ladder
in a large Plexi clear sealed tube filled with welder's Argon. Then using
the high frequency HV inverter to power the ladder inside, you should be
able to draw much more magnificent long sparks with an unusual blue-green
color. Then you wouldn't have to vent it, and you wouldn't have to listen to
it either. You may have to lower the air pressure inside a bit, but I think
this may be a cool experiment.
Keep an eye on my site at www.markwyman.com for updates on the HV inverter
design. I would like to call it a mini-Tesla coil, but it's just not
accurate.
-Mark W.
<The.Central.Scru...@invalid.pobox.com> wrote in message
news:slrn9icjlg.15n.The.Cent...@C1459607-A.arvada1.co.h
ome.com...
Mark Zenier
On second thought, the current limit is probably higher than the power
rating of the transformer because they'll usually do a real number on the
fuse when the HV cap or rectifier shorts out.
Don Klipstein
>Probably the safest way to make a Jacobs Ladder is to run a large low
>voltage DC power supply (12V to 24V at several amps), then invert your
>output to 20kHz or more at around 5kV with plenty of current (about 30mA or
>more would do) using a TV flyback or specialized HV transformer (which I am
>still locating BTW). The higher frequency will produce "skin" effect, where
>the current will mostly run on the surface of your body, preventing
>electrocution.
Skin effect is not that significant in the human body at 20 KHz. 20 KHz
has little apparant shocking effect mainly due to the frequency response
of human nerves.
Although it is known that upper audio frequencies are safer than lower
audio frequencies, I would not bet my life that the heart's own nervous
system has frequency response dropping off as much as that of pain sensing
nerves. In other words, don't bet your life that 30 mA at 20 KHz is
perfectly safe. I recommend that plexiglass enclosure!
Once you get into the hundreds of KHz, the skin effect gets more
significant. Although I have conducted 60 mA arm-to-arm at 300 KHz
before and survived, I now consider this not quite the wisest thing I have
done in my life.
A bit more on skin effect and it not being the only reason high
frequencies are non-shocking is in:
http://www.misty.com/~don/skin.html
- Don Klipstein (d...@misty.com)
Don Klipstein
>rating of the transformer because they'll usually do a real number on the
>fuse when the HV cap or rectifier shorts out.
>
I have seen the magnetic shunts in microwave oven transformers, and they
have much less cross section area than the main magnetic path of the core.
I believe these "current-limit" magnetic shunts will saturate and lose
much of their effect with a short circuit or heavy enough load. I suspect
their purpose is to achieve a partially resonant effect to gain voltage in
the microwave power supply.
If you get zapped by one, chances are you will conduct an amp or two -
around the upper end of the range of current most likely to cause fatal
disturbance of heart rhythm!
The voltage from a microwave oven transformer is on the low side for a
acobs ladder, only a couple of kilovolts. Nice fat smooth round wires
side-by-side may have to get within a millimeter of each other before the
arc starts, and the arc may just sit there in that tight a space. In
addition, at an amp or two, the arc may get those wires really hot - as
well as the transformer, if you don't blow a fuse or pop a breaker first.
Sam Goldwasser has Jacobs ladder stuff in http://www.repairfaq.org and
other places including http://www.misty.com/~don/jacobs.htm
- Don Klipstein (d...@misty.com)
Tim
> before and survived, I now consider this not quite the wisest thing I have
> done in my life.
Well, how many mA do Tesla coils have in their output?
Tim
--
"When I can't stops me fiddlin', I just takes me Ritalin;
I'm poppin' an' sailin' man! (toot toot!)"
- Bart Simpson
Tom Luttrell
wavelength?
Tom L.
On Thu, 14 Jun 2001 09:27:10 -0400, "Mark W"
<ma...@ramseyelectronics.com> wrote:
>Dead is dead.
>
>With that said, a Jacob's ladder in a resonant tube of the proper length
>will decrease the upper harmonics and increase the desired tone of say 50 to
>60 Hz. Ladders in a tuned tube sound incredibly cool. I have seen a big one
>that almost rattles the teeth out of your skull when the arc begins at the
>bottom. Quite impressive!
-snip-
Russell Shaw
--
___ ___
/ /\ / /\
/ /__\ / /\/\
/__/ / Russell Shaw, B.Eng, M.Eng(Research) /__/\/\/
\ \ / Victoria, Australia, Down-Under \ \/\/
\__\/ \__\/
Mark W
Vsound = 331.5 + .6 * Tc m/s Where Tc is temperature in Celsius
So at room temperature (I wish it were!) Vsound = 331.5 + .6 (21) = 344.31
m/s
or 1130 ft/s.
To find audio wavelength, divide these numbers by 50 or 60 to find
wavelength
So: 344.31 m/s / 60 c/s = 5.74 meters.
Or 1130 f/s / 60 c/s = 18.83 feet.
Pretty long, but you can use 1/2 wavelength 1/4 wave length will equally
neat results.
-Mark W.
"Tom Luttrell" <tom...@bigpond.com.antispam> wrote in message
news:a1qjitk0lg3rdgrms...@4ax.com...
Mark W
I have visited your site a few times, and didn't come across this
article you have done. Pretty cool to do the hamburger test. Have you tried
plopping a pound of mixture down on top of a Tesla coil and seeing what part
cooks yet?
The thing is that the distribution of the current gets funny when it is
passing through your body at high frequencies, because of the layers of your
body that have different conductivity. I wonder if women are more likely to
be shocked due to the layer of non-conducting fat under their skin to keep
'em pretty. Once the fat layer is bypassed, is the current forced deeper?
Magnetic fields in flesh are probably way too complex to characterize with
any real meaning. The fact of the matter is that it is much less likely to
be electrocuted at 20kHz at 10kV with 5mA of current than say DC at 10kV
with 5mA. Partly this is due to skin effect, since the majority of the
current will be towards the outer layers of your body, it is also partly due
to the responsiveness of your nerves to these frequencies.
My thought is however that an individual nerve may be quick enough to
register high frequencies, but the gap between them is not fast enough to
transmit the data. That is why the pain signal never reaches your brain. I
will have to speak with my brother-in-law about this, he is a researcher in
the electrical/biology field and this is right up his alley. Of course if
you begin to burn the nerve (because heating is more like DC) then it will
register just fine. So with Tesla coils, you are more likely to feel a burn
than a shock, unless you are a shoddy coil maker like I was in high school.
I was running my Tesla coil over to a shovel I was holding, and the arcs
were running down the length of wood to my hand. I was trying to reproduce
that "glow from within" trick I have never actually seen work. I thought
this was pretty neat until the primary arced to the secondary giving me one
hell of a painful jolt. My primary was too close to the secondary. No skin
effect there! Then I noticed all of the needle point burn spots along my
hand that I never felt.
Then there is the story of my "insulated" workbench and my 250kV DC
voltage multiplier. When I first powered this puppy up on the work bench, I
slapped a piece of steel wool on top of the terminal, and then fired it up.
I knew it must be working because I heard plenty of ticking and popping all
over the room, and especially my work bench. Not really thinking about it, I
reached across the workbench to unplug the unit. Some time later I was
picking myself up off of the floor and noticing a nice dent in my mom's
washing machine about the size of my head. It turns out my plastic workbench
had a metal layer on the inside, causing the workbench to act like a very
large capacitor.
-Mark W.
"Don Klipstein" <d...@manx.misty.com> wrote in message
news:slrn9iigu...@manx.misty.com...
Mark W
There is plenty of current available if the coil can maintain a healthy
sustained arc into mid-air, but I'll never measure it. No equipment of mine
will ever get near one of these things if I can help it!
-Mark W.
"Tim" <tmor...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:tiivntn...@corp.supernews.com...
John Woodgate
<tom...@bigpond.com.antispam> inimitably wrote:
>How to do make a tube resonant with 50Hz, that's about a 6000km
>wavelength?
Sound travels somewhat slower than light.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. Phone +44 (0)1268 747839
Fax +44 (0)1268 777124. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Why not call a vertically-
applied manulo-pedally-operated quasi-planar chernozem-penetrating and
excavating implement a SPADE?
Spehro Pefhany
> <a1qjitk0lg3rdgrms...@4ax.com>, Tom Luttrell
> <tom...@bigpond.com.antispam> inimitably wrote:
>>How to do make a tube resonant with 50Hz, that's about a 6000km
>>wavelength?
> Sound travels somewhat slower than light.
Unless you happen to be measuring it in a cloud of sodium atoms at 1uK?
Best regards, & welcome back
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
sp...@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
Contributions invited->The AVR-gcc FAQ is at: http://www.BlueCollarLinux.com
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Tim
Interesting, that's nearly 6pi.
So, if I wanted to make one (but for the sound source, lacking an NST,
I could probably substitute my rewound transformer - real loud :) (the
core is a bit loose)), I could make it 9 1/2 or 4 3/4 feet, right?
Brian
> In article <Xns90BB90727...@24.2.9.61>, ce...@torfree.net (Roque)
> > what type of neon sign transformers would or would not be useable for high
> > voltage novelty experiments like mostly Jacob's Ladder? I have the 1995
> > electronic's now article that shows a 12000 volt 40ma supply schematic for
> > one, but I'm wondering about all those highly available (Ebay) 6000 or so
> > volt ones at 30ma....Would those work?
> Spark starts at one quarter inch and gets to about one and one quarter
> inches. Satisfying enough.
> You can get one at you local recycling center (dump) for nothing when the
> old oil burners are scrapped.
> EMI everywhere, so don't run it too long or you'll have planes landing in
> your yard.
> Al
> --
> Remove * from the address to reply.
😂
Anthony William Sloman
> On Sunday, June 10, 2001 at 7:12:23 AM UTC-7, Al wrote:
> > In article <Xns90BB90727...@24.2.9.61>, ce...@torfree.net (Roque)
> > wrote:
What kind of dim newbie responds to a 2001 post?
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney (back then I was posting from Nijmegen in the Netherlands)