Chemistry- Rust Remover

[amdx]

I have found amazing results with Wink rust remover.
The directions say avoid contact on any surface not stated in the
directions. Then its says, clothes, carpet and white sinks and toilets,
white is very not descriptive, but I assume it means white porcelain.

I found the active ingredient is HYDROFLUORIC ACID and DENATONIUM BENZOATE.

HYDROFLUORIC ACID isn't that very potent stuff?

Anyway, my question is, What is the reaction that clears rust in
5 seconds or less? Rust stains just disappear, what do they become.
I checked into chemistry usenet groups and didn't find one appropriate.
I found two without any threads.

Mikek

[quia...@yahoo.com]

According to wikipedia, denatonium benzoate is a bitterant to prevent
accidental ingestion.

Hydroflouric acid attacks rust but not the underlying metal as much as
other acids.

This found on the web:
"Acid corrodes metal and releases gaseous hydrogen, leaving a salt
behind. The kind of salt depends on the acid and on the metal. As far
as I know, only hydrofluoric acid would be able to eat rust; its
byproducts would be iron fluoride and water."

http://scienceline.ucsb.edu/getkey.php?key=1933

Another web source said consuming a few ounces of a low concentration
(like 6% or 10%) of hydroflouric acid can cause a heart attack by
interfering with calcium metabolism, and contact with skin can produce
deep burns that don't show up until the next day.

This link has MSDSs for various Whink products:
http://www.whink.com/msds.htm

--
John

[amdx]

I looked up HYDROFLUORIC ACID.
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/773304-overview
http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/hydrofluoricacid/basics/facts.asp


http://web.utk.edu/~ehss/training/has.pdf

Dangers of Hydrofluoric Acid

Hydrofluoric Acid is one of the most dangerous
acids known. It needs to be treated differently
than even strong acids like Sulfuric and
Hydrochloric.

Hydrofluoric Acid is an acid like no other. It is so
potent that contact with it may not even be
noticed until long after serious damage has been
done. Even very strong acids, and mixtures of
acids, like Aqua Forte and Aqua
Regia, do not have the power to cause death and injury in the
way that Hydrofluoric Acid can


Gee whiz, I think I'll take another shower!
I wonder what the % is in the rust remover?
While I was on the computer, I had a little burning
on my thigh, I looked down and saw what I thought was blood on my Khaki
pants, I pulled them off thinking I'd see a cut or scrape, but saw
nothing. So I took a shower and washed well and flooded the area with
lots of water.
I'd like to think the stain on my pants is blood, but if it is, I don't
know were it came from. Could it be that HYDROFLUORIC ACID turns khaki
blood red? Ok, just ran that test, nope, so it must be blood. And the
burning...
Hope to see you in the morning,
Mikek

[Don Y]

On 9/27/2014 6:12 PM, amdx wrote:
> I have found amazing results with Wink rust remover.
> The directions say avoid contact on any surface not stated in the directions.
> Then its says, clothes, carpet and white sinks and toilets, white is very not
> descriptive, but I assume it means white porcelain.
>
> I found the active ingredient is HYDROFLUORIC ACID and DENATONIUM BENZOATE.
>
> HYDROFLUORIC ACID isn't that very potent stuff?

Hydrofluoric acid eats glass. E.g., most other acids (in a lab) can
easily be stored in glass bottles (with ground glass stoppers). But
*not* HF!

E.g., if you want to make a "custom" monogrammed beer mug (etc.), paint
the negative image on the item with resist. Then, expose to HF (fumes)
until the desired degree of "etch".

[amdx]

Hmm, this site says it has HYDROFLUORIC ACID
http://www.ewg.org/guides/cleaners/2957-WhinkRustStainRemover
The MSDS site doesn't list HYDROFLUORIC ACID.
They have changed the bottle shape and size. Maybe they eliminated the
HYDROFLUORIC ACID when they did that.

Maybe I'll awake in the morning.
Thanks, for your input, Mikek

[Bill Sloman]

On Sunday, 28 September 2014 11:12:11 UTC+10, amdx wrote:
> I have found amazing results with Wink rust remover.
> The directions say avoid contact on any surface not stated in the
> directions. Then its says, clothes, carpet and white sinks and toilets,
> white is very not descriptive, but I assume it means white porcelain.
>
> I found the active ingredient is HYDROFLUORIC ACID and DENATONIUM BENZOATE.
>
> HYDROFLUORIC ACID isn't that very potent stuff?
>
> Anyway, my question is, What is the reaction that clears rust in
> 5 seconds or less? Rust stains just disappear, what do they become.

Fe2O3 + 6 HF = 2FeF3+ 3H20

> I checked into chemistry usenet groups and didn't find one appropriate.
>
> I found two without any threads.

Hydrofluoric acid is a very strong acid. It's virtue in this situation is that Ferric Fluoride is very water soluble, just like Ferric Chloride, and washes away as soon as it forms.

The down side of hydrofluoric acid is that it gets through the skin and deposits fluoride ions in the flesh, which are poisonous, and cause persisting and expanding necrosis.

The Florine Laboratory at the Melbourne Chemistry Department where I did my Ph.D. had an emergency kit which included a bunch hypodermic syringes loaded with calcium allaginate (or some soluble calcium salt) and a colour reprint of a Nature article on the consequences of fluorine burns. The colour photos in the article were - I'm told - perfectly horrible.

Anybody who got a fluorine burn was supposed to take the kit across to the local hospital (across the road from the university) and give the doctor the kit. After the doctor had read the Nature article they'd understand the urgency of injecting the calcium salt into the wound to immobilise the fluoride ions as insoluble calcium fluoride, rather than have them hang around as a persistent poison.

I don't think that any of the Fluorine Lab people ever used the kit in mu time - but they all looked thin and sickly ...

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

[quia...@yahoo.com]

Go to the link I gave you and click on "Rust Stain Remover", and the
PDF for the product will be downloaded. It shows HFl as an ingredient
at 1.5% to 3%. As to the dangers, it doesn't give that much more
information than has come up in the other posts.

--
John

[Jasen Betts]

On 2014-09-28, amdx <noj...@knology.net> wrote:
> I have found amazing results with Wink rust remover.
> The directions say avoid contact on any surface not stated in the
> directions. Then its says, clothes, carpet and white sinks and toilets,
> white is very not descriptive, but I assume it means white porcelain.
>
> I found the active ingredient is HYDROFLUORIC ACID and DENATONIUM BENZOATE.
>
> HYDROFLUORIC ACID isn't that very potent stuff?
>
> Anyway, my question is, What is the reaction that clears rust in
> 5 seconds or less? Rust stains just disappear, what do they become.

extremely potent stuff, it will etch glass etc.

I'm guessing

iron oxide hydrofluiric acide makes iron flouride and water.

The denatonium is basically a flavouring to stop people drinking it!
All acids taste sour, so can't see that adding a bittering agent will
help much.


I've used hydrochloric acid to remove rust before. it does the trick,
but it left a residue that continued to attack the steel. Hydrofluoric
acid might be better in some way.


--
umop apisdn


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---

[rickman]

After reading the other replies I'm not sure I can add a lot. Your rust
remover is only 1.5% to 3.5% HFl. So it is not hugely dangerous if you
don't get a bunch of it on you and wash quickly if you get any drops.

I use a product that is 20% HCl, Hydrochloric acid which will be very
similar to the stuff you are using. I am very careful when I use it and
keep it off of metal or remove is quickly.

Rust is formed from the oxidation of iron. HFl or HCl is a strong acid
that provides hydrogen ions that react with the oxide to reverse the
oxidation reaction. Once the iron oxide is broken up it is soluble and
is dissolved in the water to be flushed away.

The reactions are not overly complex.

--

Rick

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

Den søndag den 28. september 2014 04.37.25 UTC+2 skrev Bill Sloman:
> On Sunday, 28 September 2014 11:12:11 UTC+10, amdx wrote:
>
> > I have found amazing results with Wink rust remover.
>
> > The directions say avoid contact on any surface not stated in the
>
> > directions. Then its says, clothes, carpet and white sinks and toilets,
>
> > white is very not descriptive, but I assume it means white porcelain.
>
> >
>
> > I found the active ingredient is HYDROFLUORIC ACID and DENATONIUM BENZOATE.
>
> >
>
> > HYDROFLUORIC ACID isn't that very potent stuff?
>
> >
>
> > Anyway, my question is, What is the reaction that clears rust in
>
> > 5 seconds or less? Rust stains just disappear, what do they become.
>
>
>
> Fe2O3 + 6 HF = 2FeF3+ 3H20
>
>
>
> > I checked into chemistry usenet groups and didn't find one appropriate.
>
> >
>
> > I found two without any threads.
>
>
>
> Hydrofluoric acid is a very strong acid.

it is very corrosive, but it is called a weak acid

-Lasse

[jrwal...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, 28 September 2014 13:25:43 UTC+1, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

Concentrated phosphoric acid is a very useful rust treatment. It does not dissolve the rust away, but converts it into an insoluble phosphate (to which paint adheres very well). The iron surface is passivated against further rusting by this process.

Conc. phosphoric acid is also an excellent flux for soldering stainless steel.

It washes away easily and is non-toxic (but can burn the skin or eyes).

John

[amdx]

Ok, I clicked on "Rust and Iron remover" rather than "Rust Stain
Remover" I might have to run an experiment and see if it will etch glass.
Thanks, Mikek

[amdx]

On 9/28/2014 1:38 AM, rickman wrote:
> On 9/27/2014 9:12 PM, amdx wrote:
>> I have found amazing results with Wink rust remover.
>> The directions say avoid contact on any surface not stated in the
>> directions. Then its says, clothes, carpet and white sinks and toilets,
>> white is very not descriptive, but I assume it means white porcelain.
>>
>> I found the active ingredient is HYDROFLUORIC ACID and DENATONIUM
>> BENZOATE.
>>
>> HYDROFLUORIC ACID isn't that very potent stuff?
>>
>> Anyway, my question is, What is the reaction that clears rust in
>> 5 seconds or less? Rust stains just disappear, what do they become.
>> I checked into chemistry usenet groups and didn't find one appropriate.
>> I found two without any threads.
>
> After reading the other replies I'm not sure I can add a lot. Your rust
> remover is only 1.5% to 3.5% HFl. So it is not hugely dangerous if you
> don't get a bunch of it on you and wash quickly if you get any drops.

The reason this came up yesterday is;
I have a white cargo van that has had the yard sprinkler
spray rusty water on it for a few years and it was a rusty coat on it.
Someone just slightly side swiped the side of the van in the last
couple days, (hit and run) and then wrote me a note in the rust, "help
me never" Don't know what that means, but I tried washing the side and
nothing happened, I sprayed this down the side and it's gone.
I still have paint on the van this morning. :-)
Mikek

[RobertMacy]

On Sat, 27 Sep 2014 19:09:33 -0700, amdx <noj...@knology.net> wrote:

> On 9/27/2014 8:12 PM, amdx wrote:
>> I have found amazing results with Wink rust remover.
>> The directions say avoid contact on any surface not stated in the
>> directions. Then its says, clothes, carpet and white sinks and toilets,
>> white is very not descriptive, but I assume it means white porcelain.
>>
>> I found the active ingredient is HYDROFLUORIC ACID and DENATONIUM
>> BENZOATE.
>>
>> HYDROFLUORIC ACID isn't that very potent stuff?
>>

> ...snip...

> Gee whiz, I think I'll take another shower!
> I wonder what the % is in the rust remover?
> While I was on the computer, I had a little burning
> on my thigh, I looked down and saw what I thought was blood on my Khaki
> pants, I pulled them off thinking I'd see a cut or scrape, but saw
> nothing. So I took a shower and washed well and flooded the area with
> lots of water.
> I'd like to think the stain on my pants is blood, but if it is, I don't
> know were it came from. Could it be that HYDROFLUORIC ACID turns khaki
> blood red? Ok, just ran that test, nope, so it must be blood. And the
> burning...
> Hope to see you in the morning,
> Mikek
>

that product is Whink, not wink, right? and if you pour onto glass and let
sit for a day, it won't etch the glass, pretty dilute.

However, get it under your fingernails and for hours your nails will feel
like they're being pulled off.

You'll have to ask Nestork what the actual reaction sequence is, but I
remember vaguely some chemical charts that show the O molecule being
removed from Fe by something, thus removes rust stains.

[RobertMacy]

On Sun, 28 Sep 2014 06:41:23 -0700, amdx <noj...@knology.net> wrote:

>> ...snip...

> The reason this came up yesterday is;
> I have a white cargo van that has had the yard sprinkler
> spray rusty water on it for a few years and it was a rusty coat on it.
> Someone just slightly side swiped the side of the van in the last
> couple days, (hit and run) and then wrote me a note in the rust, "help
> me never" Don't know what that means, but I tried washing the side and
> nothing happened, I sprayed this down the side and it's gone.
> I still have paint on the van this morning. :-)
> Mikek
>

I ALWAYS neutralize with a generous wash of baking soda to rinse. Kept my
auto's battery tray intact for years now.

I know, I know battery acid concntrates as it dries and is different, but
acid is acid.

[DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno]

On Sun, 28 Sep 2014 07:58:02 -0700, RobertMacy <robert...@gmail.com>
Gave us:

Not the brown acid. Don't do the brown acid.

BRL!!

[amdx]

Yes.

Amazing at removing rust stains.

Mikek

[Cydrome Leader]

jrwal...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, 28 September 2014 13:25:43 UTC+1, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>
> Concentrated phosphoric acid is a very useful rust treatment. It does not dissolve the rust away, but converts it into an insoluble phosphate (to which paint adheres very well). The iron surface is passivated against further rusting by this process.
>
> Conc. phosphoric acid is also an excellent flux for soldering stainless steel.

Are there any easy ways to get the strong phosphoric acid? How
concentrated must it be? I've actually got some stainless I was thinking
about soldering and wasn't sure about the flux.

[Cydrome Leader]

rickman <gnu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 9/27/2014 9:12 PM, amdx wrote:
>> I have found amazing results with Wink rust remover.
>> The directions say avoid contact on any surface not stated in the
>> directions. Then its says, clothes, carpet and white sinks and toilets,
>> white is very not descriptive, but I assume it means white porcelain.
>>
>> I found the active ingredient is HYDROFLUORIC ACID and DENATONIUM BENZOATE.
>>
>> HYDROFLUORIC ACID isn't that very potent stuff?
>>
>> Anyway, my question is, What is the reaction that clears rust in
>> 5 seconds or less? Rust stains just disappear, what do they become.
>> I checked into chemistry usenet groups and didn't find one appropriate.
>> I found two without any threads.
>
> After reading the other replies I'm not sure I can add a lot. Your rust
> remover is only 1.5% to 3.5% HFl. So it is not hugely dangerous if you
> don't get a bunch of it on you and wash quickly if you get any drops.

gloves are pretty cheap, as is an apron and face mask.

[rickman]

Diet Coke... ;)

--

Rick

[Phil Hobbs]

On 9/29/2014 2:38 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:

> jrwal...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Sunday, 28 September 2014 13:25:43 UTC+1, Lasse Langwadt
>> Christensen wrote:
>>
>> Concentrated phosphoric acid is a very useful rust treatment. It
>> does not dissolve the rust away, but converts it into an insoluble
>> phosphate (to which paint adheres very well). The iron surface is
>> passivated against further rusting by this process.

It gets rid of rust stains on tile and porcelain enamel very well,
though. I fixed an apparently permanent stain on my bathtub that way,
and it worked on JT's floor tiles too. The usual commercial brand round
here is Naval Jelly.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

[David Brown]

HF is so corrosive it eats through glass - in labs, it is stored in
stone bottles. Even when dilute, I'd be sceptical to the stopping power
of ordinary gloves if I spilt it.

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

I believe the recommended is to use two gloves made from thick
neoprene or nitrile

-Lasse

[Tom Gardner]

On 28/09/14 02:12, amdx wrote:
> I have found amazing results with Wink rust remover.
> The directions say avoid contact on any surface not stated in the directions. Then its says, clothes, carpet and white sinks and toilets, white is very not descriptive, but I assume it means white
> porcelain.
>
> I found the active ingredient is HYDROFLUORIC ACID and DENATONIUM BENZOATE.
>
> HYDROFLUORIC ACID isn't that very potent stuff?

See http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/hydrofluoricacid/basics/facts.asp

[rickman]

STONE!!?? The labs I worked in used plastic bottles.

Don't confuse an acid's "strength" with it's ability to dissolve a given
material. Some materials are susceptible to one acid while resisting
attack by another "stronger" acid. It often depends on how soluble the
corrosion products are.

There is also the matter of the acid's concentration. The product
described is only about 2% HF... and comes in a plastic bottle.

--

Rick

[Cydrome Leader]

I can guarantee that anybody trying to remove rust with gels or liquids is
going to get some of the stuff on themselves and all over the place by the
time they're done. It would be prudend to check compatibility of
protective gear and the substance being used. I recently leaned MEK soaks
right through the rubber gloves I usually use.

The kicker with HF acid, strong or weak is it's absorbed though the skin
and messes with your nerves. You don't want any direct exposure.

[Cydrome Leader]

Checking is always good. You can get "silver satin" gloves from ebay for
nearly reasonable prices these days too.

[Cydrome Leader]

sorry- "silver shield" gloves- they look real silly. Silver satin is old
phone cable- this is an electronics group.

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

I just checked some pickling paste used for cleaning stainless steel welds
it is is 2-6% HF and is says use face shield and acid resistant rubber gloves

-Lasse

[David Brown]

On 29/09/14 23:27, rickman wrote:
> On 9/29/2014 4:45 PM, David Brown wrote:
>> On 29/09/14 20:39, Cydrome Leader wrote:
>>> rickman <gnu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> After reading the other replies I'm not sure I can add a lot. Your
>>>> rust
>>>> remover is only 1.5% to 3.5% HFl. So it is not hugely dangerous if you
>>>> don't get a bunch of it on you and wash quickly if you get any drops.
>>>
>>> gloves are pretty cheap, as is an apron and face mask.
>>>
>>
>> HF is so corrosive it eats through glass - in labs, it is stored in
>> stone bottles. Even when dilute, I'd be sceptical to the stopping power
>> of ordinary gloves if I spilt it.
>
> STONE!!?? The labs I worked in used plastic bottles.

That's what I remember - but then, it was at least a couple of decades
since I've been in a chemistry lab, and it was probably concentrated HF
acid.

>
> Don't confuse an acid's "strength" with it's ability to dissolve a given
> material. Some materials are susceptible to one acid while resisting
> attack by another "stronger" acid. It often depends on how soluble the
> corrosion products are.

I know that - but being highly corrosive and attacking many materials,
as HF does, makes it likely that it would also attack many types of glove.

[Tom Gardner]

Precisely.

Read http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/hydrofluoricacid/basics/facts.asp
and understand what is being explicitly stated, and what is being
stated by inference.

A few examples:

"Hydrogen fluoride goes easily and quickly through the skin and
into the tissues in the body. There it damages the cells and
causes them to not work properly."

"Quickly take off clothing that may have hydrogen fluoride on it.
Any clothing that has to be pulled over the head should be cut
off the body."

"The damage may progress for several weeks, resulting in gradual
and lingering narrowing of the esophagus"

[Jasen Betts]

On 2014-09-29, Cydrome Leader <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
> jrwal...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Sunday, 28 September 2014 13:25:43 UTC+1, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>>
>> Concentrated phosphoric acid is a very useful rust treatment. It does not dissolve the rust away, but converts it into an insoluble phosphate (to which paint adheres very well). The iron surface is passivated against further rusting by this process.
>>
>> Conc. phosphoric acid is also an excellent flux for soldering stainless steel.
>
> Are there any easy ways to get the strong phosphoric acid?

You could try somwhere that specialises in welding supplies.

[Neon John]

On Mon, 29 Sep 2014 22:45:12 +0200, David Brown

>HF is so corrosive it eats through glass - in labs, it is stored in
>stone bottles. Even when dilute, I'd be sceptical to the stopping power
>of ordinary gloves if I spilt it.

Actually, HF isn't a strong acid. It just happens to react with a
compound we call glass.

My antique bottle of HF is glass coated on the inside with a thick
layer of paraffin. My modern bottle is ordinary polyethylene.

I have a fairly large amount of experience with HF. Conc HF is not
corrosive to the skin if removed in a reasonable amount of time. I've
tried it just to see. Dilute acid, around 8-10% is the worst. It
painlessly penetrates the skin and starts binding calcium, forming
sharp crystals that stimulate nerve endings. The result is
excruciating pain that is delayed several hours from exposure.

HF has no magical penetrating power through polymers. My safety
equipment includes a neoprene apron, face shield and a double layer of
non-latex exam gloves. Doubled up only because I might tear one.

Probably the only material that has more hazard myth associated with
it is radioactive materials.

John
John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.fluxeon.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address

[David Eather]

On Tue, 30 Sep 2014 16:24:16 +1000, Jasen Betts <ja...@xnet.co.nz> wrote:

> On 2014-09-29, Cydrome Leader <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
>> jrwal...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Sunday, 28 September 2014 13:25:43 UTC+1, Lasse Langwadt
>>> Christensen wrote:
>>>
>>> Concentrated phosphoric acid is a very useful rust treatment. It does
>>> not dissolve the rust away, but converts it into an insoluble
>>> phosphate (to which paint adheres very well). The iron surface is
>>> passivated against further rusting by this process.
>>>
>>> Conc. phosphoric acid is also an excellent flux for soldering
>>> stainless steel.
>>
>> Are there any easy ways to get the strong phosphoric acid?
>
> You could try somwhere that specialises in welding supplies.
>

you could try rust removal by electrolysis - FWIW www.siliconchip.com.au
have a feature article on the process in the october magazine (soon to be
online)

[dagmarg...@yahoo.com]

On Monday, September 29, 2014 2:38:03 PM UTC-4, Cydrome Leader wrote:

Yes. Home Depot sells it, pretty concentrated too. It was for etching
concrete IIRC, or some such. Liquid, not gel. It was a lot cheaper
than the Naval Jelly, which they had too.

Oh, here it is:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Eagle-1-Gal-Etch-and-Clean-for-Concrete-in-4-1-Concentrated-EEC1/203075984

Phosphoric-acid containing products are magic as rust-converters. I used
a bit on ye olde car as a stop-gap to temporarily keep an exposed rusty
spot from propagating. It stopped the rust cold, and it's been years.
I never did get around to "fixing it."

Cheers,
James Arthur

[Tom Swift]

dagmarg...@yahoo.com wrote:

> Yes. Home Depot sells it, pretty concentrated too. It was for
> etching concrete IIRC, or some such. Liquid, not gel. It was a lot
> cheaper than the Naval Jelly, which they had too.
>
> Oh, here it is:
> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Eagle-1-Gal-Etch-and-Clean-for-Concrete-in
> -4-1-Concentrated-EEC1/203075984
>
> Phosphoric-acid containing products are magic as rust-converters. I
> used a bit on ye olde car as a stop-gap to temporarily keep an exposed
> rusty spot from propagating. It stopped the rust cold, and it's been
> years. I never did get around to "fixing it."
>
> Cheers,
> James Arthur

I second the magic of phosphoric acid rust converters. I have a number of
old tools that started rusting badly when I moved to the rust belt of
Ontario, Canada. I tried the various rust preventers but they were
ineffective. I found the phosphoric acid products worked very well.

I like to study the chemistry to see how things work. In the case of
phosphoric acid, there are two reactions, a fast and a slow. The fast
reaction is

Fe2O3 + 2H3PO4 --> 2FePO4 + 3H2O

(Note there are three water molecules generated for every two molecules
of rust that is converted.)

The resulting coating of FePO4 is hard, black and inert. I tried putting
a couple of drops of bleach (sodium hypochlorite) on a tool that had been
treated. Nothing happened. The black coating did not react. Hopefully
this means rust spots on the car will be protected from the road salt in
the winter.

The slow reaction takes longer:

2Fe + 2H3PO4 --> 2FePO4 + 3H2

Note this produces hydrogen gas instead of water. You can see the
reaction by putting some steel screws in a bowl and addding H3PO4. This
will produce bubbles of hydrogen and the screws will turn black. They
won't rust.

There is Canadian product called Rust Check Rust Converter. It is sold in
Candian Tire stores at $9.99 for 236mL. Here's the TinyUrl link:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/k42bk3u

There is also a spray can version but I prefer to apply the liquid using
a small brush so it goes where I want.

They also have a "Rust Remover" product that is in a similar can but it
is completely different. It removes the rust without converting it and
leaves no protection.

The MSDS for Rust Converter is unavailable at the moment, but it consists
of 30% phosphoric acid, 30% tannic acid, and 30% isopropyl alcohol. The
concentrations are not listed in the MSDS.

The tannic acid reaction also produces a hard, black, inert coating.
Presumably this fills the gaps in coverage that may be produced in the
phosphoric acid reaction.

The tannic acid chemistry is included here:

http://www.hkedcity.net/article/project/hkcho/6P.pdf

The isopropyl alcohol does two things:

1. it penetrates narrow gaps and carries the phosphoric and tannic acid
into tight joints.

2. it combines with the water produced in the first reaction and removes
it from the metal when it evaporates.

As far as I can tell, the Rust Check product is the only one that
contains tannic acid and isopropyl alcohol. I have not tried any other
products to see what difference there may be, but I am quite happy with
the performance of Rust Check. The only thing is the price. I tried
buying phosphoric from a chemical supply house, but they wanted $50 per
gallon and $50 for shipping. Now that I know there are cheaper sources, I
will see if I can make my own. It will always be needed here in Canada.

Thanks for the tip for the cheap source of phosphoric acid.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 29 Sep 2014 14:13:10 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
<lang...@fonz.dk> wrote:

>I believe the recommended is to use two gloves made from thick
>neoprene or nitrile
>-Lasse

Topic drift and drivel:

Last weekend, I winterized my roof with its annual dose of wet patch
roofing tar along the seams. I have 3 boxes with various grades of
rubber, latex, nitrile gloves. I tried some gloves from each box,
only to find that they tore apart when even slightly stretched. The
oldest box may be 10 years old, so that would be expected, but one box
was purchased new about a year ago. I still don't know what destroyed
all the gloves, but I suspect it might have something to do with my
kitchen chemistry experiments.

I didn't have time to go to the hardware store and buy some new
gloves, so I used what I had, being careful not to stretch or rip
them. That didn't work. The gloves came apart at the finger tips and
wrist. I ended up with tar on the hands.


Even more topic drift and drivel:

A friend gave me his 4D Maglite to fix. The cap was stuck, which
meant the battery inside had leaked and was probably stuck inside the
aluminum tube. I confirmed this when I finally removed the cap using
two pipe wrenches. It appeared that I might need to center drill the
batteries and remove them with a big auger bit. I've done this before
and it's rather messy. There must be a better way.

Next, I then decided to inspect my own flashlights. I have 6 Maglites
scattered around the house, office, and car. Two of them (3D and 2D)
had leaky batteries. I was able to extract the batteries from one,
but the other is firmly corroded in place.

Next, I tried an experiment. Household ammonia cleaner reacts
somewhat with the aluminum oxide(?) crud produced by the potassium
hydroxide electrolyte in alkaline batteries. So, I poured some
ammonia down the flashlight tube, which eventually leaked into the
reflector and lamp area. After I cleaned up the mess, I discovered
that the ammonia had completely etched away the metallic coating on
the reflector. Oops.

At this point, my brain finally engaged and I realized I was using the
wrong chemical. I switched to phosphoric acid (Naval Jelly Rust
Dissolver), not caring much if it also attacked the aluminum. When
the volcanic belching of corrosive muck finally subsided, and after a
water rinse, the batteries from my 2D light came out fairly easily
using a broken tape measure jammed between the battery and the
aluminum tube. Unfortunately, it also undermined the black paint on
the aluminum flashlight tube, which caused much of it to flake off.
Lesson learned, dilute the phosphoric acid next time.

One more 4D flashlight to go. What (else) can go wrong?


--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Jasen Betts]

On 2014-10-01, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:

> Next, I tried an experiment. Household ammonia cleaner reacts
> somewhat with the aluminum oxide(?) crud produced by the potassium
> hydroxide electrolyte in alkaline batteries. So, I poured some
> ammonia down the flashlight tube, which eventually leaked into the
> reflector and lamp area. After I cleaned up the mess, I discovered
> that the ammonia had completely etched away the metallic coating on
> the reflector. Oops.

Some battery brands come with a equipment replacement guarantee if
they leak and damage your equipment. IIRC Energiser and Duracell.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On 1 Oct 2014 10:26:29 GMT, Jasen Betts <ja...@xnet.co.nz> wrote:

>On 2014-10-01, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>
>> Next, I tried an experiment. Household ammonia cleaner reacts
>> somewhat with the aluminum oxide(?) crud produced by the potassium
>> hydroxide electrolyte in alkaline batteries. So, I poured some
>> ammonia down the flashlight tube, which eventually leaked into the
>> reflector and lamp area. After I cleaned up the mess, I discovered
>> that the ammonia had completely etched away the metallic coating on
>> the reflector. Oops.
>
>Some battery brands come with a equipment replacement guarantee if
>they leak and damage your equipment. IIRC Energiser and Duracell.

I've found that both still leak and Energizers are worse than most but
if you're into warranties, that's the way to go. Don't know how many
times they'll replace stuff for you though. I bought 100 no-name AAs
from Home Depot about five years ago. They're just starting to leak.
I've found that it's better to replace alkaline batteries no more than
a year after they've been put into service and more immediately if
they've been used for any time (say, 20-50% discharge).

The appliances are too expensive and warranties are too much hassle.
...which, of course, the bunny and copper are counting on.

[meow...@care2.com]

alkaline cells instead of nimh: oops.
overpriced ali instead of plastic: oops if you don't need the robustness


NT

[rickman]

On 10/1/2014 6:26 AM, Jasen Betts wrote:
> On 2014-10-01, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>
>> Next, I tried an experiment. Household ammonia cleaner reacts
>> somewhat with the aluminum oxide(?) crud produced by the potassium
>> hydroxide electrolyte in alkaline batteries. So, I poured some
>> ammonia down the flashlight tube, which eventually leaked into the
>> reflector and lamp area. After I cleaned up the mess, I discovered
>> that the ammonia had completely etched away the metallic coating on
>> the reflector. Oops.
>
> Some battery brands come with a equipment replacement guarantee if
> they leak and damage your equipment. IIRC Energiser and Duracell.

I took Energizer up on their warranty once and they came through! They
sent me a check for $100 based on my word alone. I think I had a
problem with a Ray-o-vac battery once and they require substantiation of
your claims, almost as much as an insurance company would... receipt of
purchase, photos of damage...

--

Rick