Anyone using a Welec W20xxA DSO?
Falk Willberg
cheap 1Gs/s 200MHz DSOs via ebay (e.g. 190302544569).
As I am familiar with most of the issues regarding this scope, I would
like to know, wether users have upgraded from the original, pretty -
let's say - improvable firmware to the much better OpenSource version.
Regards,
Falk
Joerg
Made in England, and it went for 350 Euros? Wow! Do these things really
work?
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.
David L. Jones
For those playing along at home:
http://rtr.ca/welec_w2022a/
http://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/welecw2000a/
and the hardware:
http://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/welecw2000a/wiki/Hardware
Pretty obvious they were not using a true 1GS/s converter.
the front end schematic:
http://welec-dso.googlegroups.com/web/Analog_+Inputs.png?gda=8VEswEQAAADKIUWHNk3vK1q-wxPusPv1UKR8chmNA5Tm4wyy8v6Dgfa2WeN-r3_WC1DUZQCD2SZV6u9SiETdg0Q2ffAyHU-dzc4BZkLnSFWX59nr5BxGqA
Dave.
--
---------------------------------------------
Check out my Electronics Engineering Video Blog & Podcast:
http://www.alternatezone.com/eevblog/
Jon Kirwan
wrote:
>Falk Willberg wrote:
>> As far as I can see, Wittig is selling significant numbers of their very
>> cheap 1Gs/s 200MHz DSOs via ebay (e.g. 190302544569).
>>
>> As I am familiar with most of the issues regarding this scope, I would
>> like to know, wether users have upgraded from the original, pretty -
>> let's say - improvable firmware to the much better OpenSource version.
>>
>
>Made in England, and it went for 350 Euros? Wow! Do these things really
>work?
Eine interessante Antwort ist hier:
http://rtr.ca/welec_w2022a/
At the bottom of quite a lot of information is this note from a
purchaser:
"Welec, is the same company previously called Wittig Electronics that
went bankrupt. I purchased a W2012 (note no "A") that looks identical.
it was a POS. I use PayPal for eBay purchases, and was able to get
refund. Perhaps you can too. These guys are very shady. I'm not sure
how they get such high ratings on eBay, they must be gaming the
system. I ended up buying a used Tek DSO on eBay, and I'm satisfied."
Jon
Joerg
Yes, I saw that. But Falk participates a lot in the German NG and does
real electronics, so it must work for him to some extent. If you can get
these for 350 Euros that almost looks like a liquidation sale.
Sometimes it's ok to live with certain shortcomings. Like the remote
control SW for my Instek which is unfortunately .NET-based and crashes a
lot. Not nice but still allows me to not have to switch between 3x
glasses for SMT and 1.5x to look at the scope. However, from links like
te one above it appears that the internal software of that W2012 must be
really horrid.
David L. Jones
> Jon Kirwan wrote:
>> On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 14:49:20 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Falk Willberg wrote:
>>>> As far as I can see, Wittig is selling significant numbers of
>>>> their very cheap 1Gs/s 200MHz DSOs via ebay (e.g. 190302544569).
>>>>
>>>> As I am familiar with most of the issues regarding this scope, I
>>>> would like to know, wether users have upgraded from the original,
>>>> pretty - let's say - improvable firmware to the much better
>>>> OpenSource version.
>>> Made in England, and it went for 350 Euros? Wow! Do these things
>>> really work?
>>
>> Eine interessante Antwort ist hier:
>> http://rtr.ca/welec_w2022a/
>>
>> At the bottom of quite a lot of information is this note from a
>> purchaser:
>>
>> "Welec, is the same company previously called Wittig Electronics that
>> went bankrupt. I purchased a W2012 (note no "A") that looks
>> identical. it was a POS. I use PayPal for eBay purchases, and was
>> able to get refund. Perhaps you can too. These guys are very shady.
>> I'm not sure how they get such high ratings on eBay, they must be
>> gaming the system.
A lot of people who buy these really cheap no-name scopes typically don't
know anything about scopes or how they should perform, so as long as they
get a waveform on the screen they are happy with their purchase and hence
leave positive feedback.
> Yes, I saw that. But Falk participates a lot in the German NG and does
> real electronics, so it must work for him to some extent. If you can
> get these for 350 Euros that almost looks like a liquidation sale.
>
> Sometimes it's ok to live with certain shortcomings. Like the remote
> control SW for my Instek which is unfortunately .NET-based and
> crashes a lot. Not nice but still allows me to not have to switch
> between 3x glasses for SMT and 1.5x to look at the scope. However,
> from links like te one above it appears that the internal software of
> that W2012 must be really horrid.
I love the quote from here:
http://rtr.ca/welec_w2022a/
" Meanwhile, a German group has actually managed to get the Wittig brothers
to release (most) source code for the scope, and the code is now available
on SourceForge.net. But this is still missing a rather important hardware
description component, so it cannot be used or recompiled yet. The C++ code
looks like it was written by a 10-year old with a TRS-80 BASIC programming
background. Ugly and unreadable as hell, with little hope of being
salvageable."
Dave.
--
================================================
Jon Kirwan
wrote:
>Jon Kirwan wrote:
>> On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 14:49:20 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Falk Willberg wrote:
>>>> As far as I can see, Wittig is selling significant numbers of their very
>>>> cheap 1Gs/s 200MHz DSOs via ebay (e.g. 190302544569).
>>>>
>>>> As I am familiar with most of the issues regarding this scope, I would
>>>> like to know, wether users have upgraded from the original, pretty -
>>>> let's say - improvable firmware to the much better OpenSource version.
>>>>
>>> Made in England, and it went for 350 Euros? Wow! Do these things really
>>> work?
>>
>> Eine interessante Antwort ist hier:
>> http://rtr.ca/welec_w2022a/
>>
>> At the bottom of quite a lot of information is this note from a
>> purchaser:
>>
>> "Welec, is the same company previously called Wittig Electronics that
>> went bankrupt. I purchased a W2012 (note no "A") that looks identical.
>> it was a POS. I use PayPal for eBay purchases, and was able to get
>> refund. Perhaps you can too. These guys are very shady. I'm not sure
>> how they get such high ratings on eBay, they must be gaming the
>> system. I ended up buying a used Tek DSO on eBay, and I'm satisfied."
>
>Yes, I saw that. But Falk participates a lot in the German NG and does
>real electronics, so it must work for him to some extent. If you can get
>these for 350 Euros that almost looks like a liquidation sale.
What about this, then:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370226435442
Not too far from 350 Euros.
>Sometimes it's ok to live with certain shortcomings. Like the remote
>control SW for my Instek which is unfortunately .NET-based and crashes a
>lot. Not nice but still allows me to not have to switch between 3x
>glasses for SMT and 1.5x to look at the scope. However, from links like
>te one above it appears that the internal software of that W2012 must be
>really horrid.
It's both the hardware and the software, it seems from the page. Noisy
inputs and really horrible software as well. Might make an interesting
starting point for DIY, except that there are functional units to be
had without all the bother and not so far away in price.
Jon
Falk Willberg
> Jon Kirwan wrote:
>> On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 14:49:20 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>> Made in England, and it went for 350 Euros? Wow! Do these things
>>> really work?
If you only had a 20MHz Lucky-Goldstar before, it is just great.
>> Eine interessante Antwort ist hier:
>> http://rtr.ca/welec_w2022a/
>>
>> At the bottom of quite a lot of information is this note from a
>> purchaser:
>>
>> "Welec, is the same company previously called Wittig Electronics that
>> went bankrupt. I purchased a W2012 (note no "A") that looks identical.
>> it was a POS. I use PayPal for eBay purchases, and was able to get
>> refund...."
>
> Yes, I saw that. But Falk participates a lot in the German NG and does
> real electronics, so it must work for him to some extent.
Due to the W2022A's shortcomings like noise and slow response I am
currently using both: The Welec for most digital things, like serial
protocols and a TEK464 for the stuff, the DSO cannot handle.
> If you can get
> these for 350 Euros that almost looks like a liquidation sale.
I am sure, it is.
> However, from links like
> te one above it appears that the internal software of that W2012 must be
> really horrid.
The original internal software is as bad as the sources, we are working
on, are. But some problems already have been solved:
- less noise with improved ADC/DAC-calibration, faster display, working
FFT, screenshots and download of data working, improved quick measure,
improved triggers and some more.
That's why I asked, wether any users of those scopes are reading here
and what firmware version they are using.
Falk
P.S.: A screenshot of the new but not yet finished FFT-function:
http://www.mikrocontroller.net/attachment/53745/FFT.gif
--
"Ihr werdet euch noch wï¿œnschen wir wï¿œren politikverdrossen."
Max Winde (Twitter)
Jan Panteltje
<inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <7bklv5F...@mid.individual.net>:
I have been looking at the block diagram of that scope.
I uses 4 x ADC in 'staggered' sequential mode to get 1G samples/second.
So each ADC samples every 4 nS.
To have a bit reasonable sampling, the samples must be equally spaced.
If you allow 10% error (well that is not very good is it?), then the
positional accuracy should be 100 pS ? But 10 pS would be better :-)
I dunno how they do that:-), maybe a delay line? Temp drift?
Hopefully not done with gate delays in the FPGA????
So what is their 1G samples really worth?
I like the fact that the design is open, and I if I had one for
free, say found it on the door step, I 4 sure would have a go at the soft...
But you are stuck with the hardware...
Also what good is an 8 bit ADC if you have 3 bits of it unstable and showing up
as noise, as in that picture?
For about 520 Euro you can buy a Rigol with 1G samples, have not tried those,
but you know, guarantee, service...
David L. Jones
Not much, almost a gimmick really.
> I like the fact that the design is open, and I if I had one for
> free, say found it on the door step, I 4 sure would have a go at the
> soft... But you are stuck with the hardware...
> Also what good is an 8 bit ADC if you have 3 bits of it unstable and
> showing up as noise, as in that picture?
Pretty crusty huh?
> For about 520 Euro you can buy a Rigol with 1G samples, have not
> tried those, but you know, guarantee, service...
The Rigol uses a genuine 1GS/s sampler, developed by them, they were the
first one apart from the "big boys" (Agilent, Tek, Lecroy et.al) to do their
own at that speed.
The Rigol is so good (for that price level) that Agilent have been rebadging
them for years.
Interesting fact, Rigol are the #2 scope manufactuer in the world by volume.
$520 euro? try $320euro for the DS1052E on Ebay.
Granted, only 50Mhz analog bandwidth, but you get a genuine 1GS/s in real
time, and that deep memory is so nice.
Dave.
--
---------------------------------------------
Joerg
They are quite good but heavy. A client bought some.
>> Sometimes it's ok to live with certain shortcomings. Like the remote
>> control SW for my Instek which is unfortunately .NET-based and crashes a
>> lot. Not nice but still allows me to not have to switch between 3x
>> glasses for SMT and 1.5x to look at the scope. However, from links like
>> te one above it appears that the internal software of that W2012 must be
>> really horrid.
>
> It's both the hardware and the software, it seems from the page. Noisy
> inputs and really horrible software as well. Might make an interesting
> starting point for DIY, except that there are functional units to be
> had without all the bother and not so far away in price.
>
Right. Or pay a little more and get a good Asian scope.
Joerg
> Joerg schrieb:
>> Jon Kirwan wrote:
>>> On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 14:49:20 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>
>>>> Made in England, and it went for 350 Euros? Wow! Do these things
>>>> really work?
>
> If you only had a 20MHz Lucky-Goldstar before, it is just great.
>
Wasn't that a cigarette brand? SCNR ...
>>> Eine interessante Antwort ist hier:
>>> http://rtr.ca/welec_w2022a/
>>>
>>> At the bottom of quite a lot of information is this note from a
>>> purchaser:
>>>
>>> "Welec, is the same company previously called Wittig Electronics that
>>> went bankrupt. I purchased a W2012 (note no "A") that looks identical.
>>> it was a POS. I use PayPal for eBay purchases, and was able to get
>>> refund...."
>> Yes, I saw that. But Falk participates a lot in the German NG and does
>> real electronics, so it must work for him to some extent.
>
> Due to the W2022A's shortcomings like noise and slow response I am
> currently using both: The Welec for most digital things, like serial
> protocols and a TEK464 for the stuff, the DSO cannot handle.
>
Yes, now I remember you mentioning that in the German NG.
>> If you can get
>> these for 350 Euros that almost looks like a liquidation sale.
>
> I am sure, it is.
>
>> However, from links like
>> te one above it appears that the internal software of that W2012 must be
>> really horrid.
>
> The original internal software is as bad as the sources, we are working
> on, are. But some problems already have been solved:
> - less noise with improved ADC/DAC-calibration, faster display, working
> FFT, screenshots and download of data working, improved quick measure,
> improved triggers and some more.
>
So what was the SW guy at Wittig doing? Couldn't get it done? Overloaded
with other work?
Ganging four ADC is not quite trivial. Have done it, with
auto-calibration and all. The cardinal rule is not to fall for digital
delay lines, those can be the pits.
> That's why I asked, wether any users of those scopes are reading here
> and what firmware version they are using.
>
I have never seen one in America but maybe some of our Brits have?
> Falk
> P.S.: A screenshot of the new but not yet finished FFT-function:
> http://www.mikrocontroller.net/attachment/53745/FFT.gif
Nice!
Joerg
The Instek GDS-2204 in the lab here does it like that as well. So does
gear that I've designed. You can track ADCs so precisely that the error
is way below their quantization granularity. But you must auto-calibrate
all three parameters: Clock phases, offsets, gains.
> I like the fact that the design is open, and I if I had one for
> free, say found it on the door step, I 4 sure would have a go at the soft...
> But you are stuck with the hardware...
> Also what good is an 8 bit ADC if you have 3 bits of it unstable and showing up
> as noise, as in that picture?
>
Screwed up layout? That shouldn't happen.
> For about 520 Euro you can buy a Rigol with 1G samples, have not tried those,
> but you know, guarantee, service...
Yep, several Asian mfgs these days. And some can give Agilent and Tek a
run for the money in the low-end sector. I've had situations where the
Instek scope here out-maneuvered a more expensive Tek.
Falk Willberg
...
> For about 520 Euro you can buy a Rigol with 1G samples,
As I am using Linux, I am quite happy with the open source. So I was
able to add functions *I* wanted to have.
Also very important: It has a lot of "Spielwert", (if someone could
translate that, please ;-) ) and I don't want to use a 30 MHz analog
LG5020 (or so) for 300ￜ any longer...
> have not tried those,
> but you know, guarantee, service...
Wittig gives 3 years warranty. And I was told, that they really repair
or replace.
Falk
Joerg
> Jan Panteltje schrieb:
>
> ...
>
>> For about 520 Euro you can buy a Rigol with 1G samples,
>
> As I am using Linux, I am quite happy with the open source. So I was
> able to add functions *I* wanted to have.
>
Offering an open source scope platform is actually a brilliant business
idea. They'll be the only ones because the others are extremely
restrictive. I wanted to fix some minor things on my DSO and asked for
the keys to the firmware. The answer was a firm "You can't have those".
> Also very important: It has a lot of "Spielwert", (if someone could
> translate that, please ;-) ) ...
Fun factor. So you are probably not married :-)
> ... and I don't want to use a 30 MHz analog
> LG5020 (or so) for 300ￜ any longer...
>
But always keep an analog scope around. DSOs can seriously fool you in
some situations and it's also next to impossible to detect slight noise
effects.
>> have not tried those,
>> but you know, guarantee, service...
>
> Wittig gives 3 years warranty. And I was told, that they really repair
> or replace.
>
Wasn't there a bankruptcy? At least in the US warranty rights are pretty
much toast after that.
Jan Panteltje
<Fawegl...@falk-willberg.de> wrote in
<h3524a$eic$1...@news2.open-news-network.org>:
>Jan Panteltje schrieb:
>
>...
>
>> For about 520 Euro you can buy a Rigol with 1G samples,
>
>As I am using Linux, I am quite happy with the open source. So I was
>able to add functions *I* wanted to have.
You mean on the PC side?
That website says they cannot install new firmware yet?
>Wittig gives 3 years warranty. And I was told, that they really repair
>or replace.
I once bought a calculator in London.
It did not even add 1+1.
Brought it back, the guy told me:
O, I gave you the UK version, here is the same one made in the US.
That one worked.
Falk Willberg
> On a sunny day (Thu, 09 Jul 2009 17:36:08 +0200) it happened Falk Willberg
> <Fawegl...@falk-willberg.de> wrote in
> <h3524a$eic$1...@news2.open-news-network.org>:
>
>> Jan Panteltje schrieb:
>>
>> ...
>>
>>> For about 520 Euro you can buy a Rigol with 1G samples,
>> As I am using Linux, I am quite happy with the open source. So I was
>> able to add functions *I* wanted to have.
> You mean on the PC side?
On both sides.
> That website says they cannot install new firmware yet?
What website says that? The open source firmware *is* *working* much
better than the original. The latest release is 0.82, see
https://welecw2000a.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/welecw2000a/fpga/firmware/
Falk
Falk Willberg
> Falk Willberg wrote:
>> Jan Panteltje schrieb:
>>
>> ...
>>
>>> For about 520 Euro you can buy a Rigol with 1G samples,
>>
>> As I am using Linux, I am quite happy with the open source. So I was
>> able to add functions *I* wanted to have.
>>
> Offering an open source scope platform is actually a brilliant business
> idea. They'll be the only ones because the others are extremely
> restrictive. I wanted to fix some minor things on my DSO and asked for
> the keys to the firmware. The answer was a firm "You can't have those".
Sometimes I think that those developers feel ashamed of their code ;-)
>> Also very important: It has a lot of "Spielwert", (if someone could
>> translate that, please ;-) ) ...
>
> Fun factor.
Thanks.
> So you are probably not married :-)
She beleives knitting is fun. I beleive, burning my fingers, fixing
things, writing software is fun ;-)
>>> have not tried those,
>>> but you know, guarantee, service...
>>
>> Wittig gives 3 years warranty. And I was told, that they really repair
>> or replace.
>
> Wasn't there a bankruptcy? At least in the US warranty rights are pretty
> much toast after that.
AFAIK the Welec GmbH went bancrupt. But now Wittig Electronics GmbH
sells the scopes.
Falk
Jan Panteltje
<Fawegl...@falk-willberg.de> wrote in
<h358re$gon$1...@news2.open-news-network.org>:
>Jan Panteltje schrieb:
>> On a sunny day (Thu, 09 Jul 2009 17:36:08 +0200) it happened Falk Willberg
>> <Fawegl...@falk-willberg.de> wrote in
>> <h3524a$eic$1...@news2.open-news-network.org>:
>>
>>> Jan Panteltje schrieb:
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> For about 520 Euro you can buy a Rigol with 1G samples,
>>> As I am using Linux, I am quite happy with the open source. So I was
>>> able to add functions *I* wanted to have.
>
>> You mean on the PC side?
>
>On both sides.
>
>> That website says they cannot install new firmware yet?
>
>What website says that?
the one (of many) I was on, cannot find it back, but it did say
some essential part was missiing.
>The open source firmware *is* *working* much
>better than the original. The latest release is 0.82, see
>https://welecw2000a.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/welecw2000a/fpga/firmware/
>
>Falk
OK.
Jon Kirwan
wrote:
>Falk Willberg wrote:
>> Joerg schrieb:
>>> Jon Kirwan wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 14:49:20 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
>>>> wrote:
>>
>>>>> Made in England, and it went for 350 Euros? Wow! Do these things
>>>>> really work?
>>
>> If you only had a 20MHz Lucky-Goldstar before, it is just great.
>
>Wasn't that a cigarette brand? SCNR ...
>
>>>> Eine interessante Antwort ist hier:
>>>> http://rtr.ca/welec_w2022a/
>>>>
>>>> At the bottom of quite a lot of information is this note from a
>>>> purchaser:
>>>>
>>>> "Welec, is the same company previously called Wittig Electronics that
>>>> went bankrupt. I purchased a W2012 (note no "A") that looks identical.
>>>> it was a POS. I use PayPal for eBay purchases, and was able to get
>>>> refund...."
>>> Yes, I saw that. But Falk participates a lot in the German NG and does
>>> real electronics, so it must work for him to some extent.
>>
>> Due to the W2022A's shortcomings like noise and slow response I am
>> currently using both: The Welec for most digital things, like serial
>> protocols and a TEK464 for the stuff, the DSO cannot handle.
>
>Yes, now I remember you mentioning that in the German NG.
><snip>
Which newsgroup is this. I'd like to start reading it. I need to
work on German -- especially technical terms.
Thanks,
Jon
Falk Willberg
> On Thu, 09 Jul 2009 06:46:13 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
> wrote:
...
>> Yes, now I remember you mentioning that in the German NG.
>> <snip>
>
> Which newsgroup is this. I'd like to start reading it. I need to
> work on German
Die Gruppe heiï¿œt: de.sci.electronics. You are welcome, if you can stand
some Anti-Whatever-ism and the Umlauts ;-)
> -- especially technical terms.
Da kannst Du viele typisch deutsche Wï¿œrter wie Transistor (engl.:
transistor) Diode (engl.: diode) or Computer (engl. computer) lernen.
Falk
Joerg
> Joerg schrieb:
>> Falk Willberg wrote:
>>> Jan Panteltje schrieb:
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> For about 520 Euro you can buy a Rigol with 1G samples,
>>> As I am using Linux, I am quite happy with the open source. So I was
>>> able to add functions *I* wanted to have.
>>>
>> Offering an open source scope platform is actually a brilliant business
>> idea. They'll be the only ones because the others are extremely
>> restrictive. I wanted to fix some minor things on my DSO and asked for
>> the keys to the firmware. The answer was a firm "You can't have those".
>
> Sometimes I think that those developers feel ashamed of their code ;-)
>
Then why did they release it?
>>> Also very important: It has a lot of "Spielwert", (if someone could
>>> translate that, please ;-) ) ...
>> Fun factor.
>
> Thanks.
>
>> So you are probably not married :-)
>
> She beleives knitting is fun. I beleive, burning my fingers, fixing
> things, writing software is fun ;-)
>
Mine does crocheting a lot, but only if it is for charity. I thought
that crocheting and knitting are almost the same thing but was taught
otherwise. I share your hobbies except for writing software, that was
never much fun for me.
>>>> have not tried those,
>>>> but you know, guarantee, service...
>>> Wittig gives 3 years warranty. And I was told, that they really repair
>>> or replace.
>> Wasn't there a bankruptcy? At least in the US warranty rights are pretty
>> much toast after that.
>
> AFAIK the Welec GmbH went bancrupt. But now Wittig Electronics GmbH
> sells the scopes.
>
So they opened a new business at the same location? Hopefully it'll do
better than the old one. Now that Hameg is sold to Rohde&Schwarz there
needs to be someone new who starts measurement tools in Germany.
Falk Willberg
> Falk Willberg wrote:
...
>> Sometimes I think that those developers feel ashamed of their code ;-)
>>
> Then why did they release it?
Because it compiled. Writing code that compiles, takes 50%, writing code
that works somehow takes 100%, making code that handles errors takes
150% and making fine code, that does all the before and that looks good,
takes 200% of the time, you are paid for. Then you start writing the
documentation ;-)
>>>> Also very important: It has a lot of "Spielwert", (if someone could
>>>> translate that, please ;-) ) ...
>>> Fun factor.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>>> So you are probably not married :-)
>>
>> She beleives knitting is fun. I beleive, burning my fingers, fixing
>> things, writing software is fun ;-)
...
> I share your hobbies except for writing software, that was
> never much fun for me.
Writing software means no burned finger tips, no ringing in the ears
caused by a big capacitor, but you don't know what is really happening
and it may cause mental diseases.
...
>> AFAIK the Welec GmbH went bancrupt. But now Wittig Electronics GmbH
>> sells the scopes.
>>
> So they opened a new business at the same location? Hopefully it'll do
> better than the old one. Now that Hameg is sold to Rohde&Schwarz there
> needs to be someone new who starts measurement tools in Germany.
Not simple. I am not surprised, that the chinese are not stupid and will
be on "our" level soon. Remember Japan, Korea, Taiwan...
Falk
--
German chancellor Merkel is not surprised by the world finance crisis,
because she learned at school, that, and why capitalism will fail. And
she learned what the solution will be. Now she is loking for a synonym
for socialism.
Nico Coesel
>Jan Panteltje schrieb:
>
>...
>
>> For about 520 Euro you can buy a Rigol with 1G samples,
>
>As I am using Linux, I am quite happy with the open source. So I was
>able to add functions *I* wanted to have.
>
>Also very important: It has a lot of "Spielwert", (if someone could
>translate that, please ;-) ) and I don't want to use a 30 MHz analog
>LG5020 (or so) for 300� any longer...
This is quite interesting. An oscilloscope for which you can hack your
own firmware... Except for using 4 ADCs per channel the concept of the
design isn't bad.
--
Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply
indicates you are not using the right tools...
"If it doesn't fit, use a bigger hammer!"
--------------------------------------------------------------
Jon Kirwan
<Fawegl...@falk-willberg.de> wrote:
>Jon Kirwan schrieb:
>> On Thu, 09 Jul 2009 06:46:13 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
>> wrote:
>
>...
>
>>> Yes, now I remember you mentioning that in the German NG.
>>> <snip>
>>
>> Which newsgroup is this. I'd like to start reading it. I need to
>> work on German
>
>Die Gruppe hei�t: de.sci.electronics. You are welcome, if you can stand
>some Anti-Whatever-ism and the Umlauts ;-)
Regierungsfeindlich? Das tut mir gern. ;)
My production of German stinks. I just read it with some modest
understanding. So actually part of the reason is to get idioms and
common preferences in speaking, too.
>> -- especially technical terms.
>
>Da kannst Du viele typisch deutsche W�rter wie Transistor (engl.:
>transistor) Diode (engl.: diode) or Computer (engl. computer) lernen.
Hehe! ;) Nat�rlich.
Gr��e,
Jon
Jon Kirwan
wrote:
>> Also very important: It has a lot of "Spielwert", (if someone could
>> translate that, please ;-) ) ...
>
>Fun factor. So you are probably not married :-)
The actual word(s) break out as Spiel (play) and wert (value or worth)
and it made me think of something more gaming-like, such as "replay
value" than "fun factor." But fun factor is much better. Would
Spielwert also be used for the meaning of "replay value" in video
games, for example? Or is there another term for that?
Jon
Joerg
> Joerg schrieb:
>> Falk Willberg wrote:
>
> ...
>
>>> Sometimes I think that those developers feel ashamed of their code ;-)
>>>
>> Then why did they release it?
>
> Because it compiled. Writing code that compiles, takes 50%, writing code
> that works somehow takes 100%, making code that handles errors takes
> 150% and making fine code, that does all the before and that looks good,
> takes 200% of the time, you are paid for. Then you start writing the
> documentation ;-)
>
That's a major problem, writing documentation after the fact. I never do
that. When a client wants a new design the first thing I open is the
word processor. Always.
[...]
>> I share your hobbies except for writing software, that was
>> never much fun for me.
>
> Writing software means no burned finger tips, no ringing in the ears
> caused by a big capacitor, but you don't know what is really happening
> and it may cause mental diseases.
>
It can also give you carpal tunnel syndrome. I know a few who suffer
from it or even had surgery.
> ...
>
>>> AFAIK the Welec GmbH went bancrupt. But now Wittig Electronics GmbH
>>> sells the scopes.
>>>
>> So they opened a new business at the same location? Hopefully it'll do
>> better than the old one. Now that Hameg is sold to Rohde&Schwarz there
>> needs to be someone new who starts measurement tools in Germany.
>
> Not simple. I am not surprised, that the chinese are not stupid and will
> be on "our" level soon. Remember Japan, Korea, Taiwan...
>
My DSO was engineered in Taiwan. And it's pretty darn good. Even speaks
German if you want it to :-)
Joerg
I've been away from Germany for too long but I believe "Spielwert"
always had a meaning close to what "Fahrvergnuegen" is in our Volkswagen
ads over here. I've never seen that word on a video game or arcade
machine. "Spiel" on those machines means game, as in how many games you
have left after inserting x amount of cash into the machine.
"Freispiele" on a slot machine or pinball machine is the number of games
(or pulls) you didn't pay for but won during a run.
Mostly "Spielwert" is (or at least was) used if something had the
potential of being entertaining but not necessarily of being all that
useful. Like that midlife-crisis sports car purchase :-)
Joerg
> Falk Willberg <Fawegl...@falk-willberg.de> wrote:
>
>> Jan Panteltje schrieb:
>>
>> ...
>>
>>> For about 520 Euro you can buy a Rigol with 1G samples,
>> As I am using Linux, I am quite happy with the open source. So I was
>> able to add functions *I* wanted to have.
>>
>> Also very important: It has a lot of "Spielwert", (if someone could
>> translate that, please ;-) ) and I don't want to use a 30 MHz analog
>> LG5020 (or so) for 300� any longer...
>
> This is quite interesting. An oscilloscope for which you can hack your
> own firmware... Except for using 4 ADCs per channel the concept of the
> design isn't bad.
>
Have you ever thought what it means in terms of cost when you go from
four 250MHz/8bit ADCs to sixteen of them just to have full bore in 4ch
mode? It's like saying that I want my car to race up that steep hill at
100km/h even when it tows the big trailer. Sure, you can get that, if
you buy a Mercedes Benz S560. But does that make sense?
Jon Kirwan
wrote:
Ah. Do NordDeutsch carry a stronger negative judgment about Spielwert
als s�dDeutsch?
Jon
Falk Willberg
that would be "Wiederspielwert". Replay translated literally would be
Wiederspiel. But nobody says "Wiederspiel".
Falk
Falk Willberg
> Falk Willberg <Fawegl...@falk-willberg.de> wrote:
>
>> Jan Panteltje schrieb:
>>
>> ...
>>
>>> For about 520 Euro you can buy a Rigol with 1G samples,
>> As I am using Linux, I am quite happy with the open source. So I was
>> able to add functions *I* wanted to have.
>>
>> Also very important: It has a lot of "Spielwert", (if someone could
>> translate that, please ;-) ) and I don't want to use a 30 MHz analog
>> LG5020 (or so) for 300¤ any longer...
>
> This is quite interesting. An oscilloscope for which you can hack your
> own firmware... Except for using 4 ADCs per channel the concept of the
> design isn't bad.
The "Russian Group" is using them as a cheap training platform for FPGA
programming ;-)
They are trying different approaches to make a good DSO on this
platform. But as they have a much longer way to go...
Falk
--
Weglassen in my email address must be left out
Jan Panteltje
(Nico Coesel) wrote in <4a566f2f....@news.planet.nl>:
>Falk Willberg <Fawegl...@falk-willberg.de> wrote:
>
>>Jan Panteltje schrieb:
>>
>>...
>>
>>> For about 520 Euro you can buy a Rigol with 1G samples,
>>
>>As I am using Linux, I am quite happy with the open source. So I was
>>able to add functions *I* wanted to have.
>>
>>Also very important: It has a lot of "Spielwert", (if someone could
>>translate that, please ;-) ) and I don't want to use a 30 MHz analog
>>LG5020 (or so) for 300ￜ any longer...
>
>This is quite interesting. An oscilloscope for which you can hack your
>own firmware... Except for using 4 ADCs per channel the concept of the
>design isn't bad.
I think it is VERY bad.
Look at the diagram of the channel amplifiers.
All opamps.
You may as well replace that by triangles with NOISE written in it.
And that is most likely why the thing has 4 bits noise of the 8 bits ADC.
I know this will piss of those who worked hard to improve that firmware ;-)
But get real, long long time ago, tens of years, somebody at Tek published
(long before there was anything like Internet or 'online') the diagram of a
*300MHz* analog Y amp for a CRT scope in a Dutch electronics magazine.
It used discretes, BFY90, and could output tens of volts to the CRT.
And of course it was not noisy.
I build it, and used an East German CRT with similar bandwidth, that was my third scope...
Many many years later I met the person who published that at Tek, he told
me Tek was not too happy with him publishing that diagram, but in my view it
sure made a good commercial for their scopes :-)
So, anyways, with a couple of discretes you can make a much better amp
in my opinion, probably cheaper too
Why the guy used op-amps is perhaps the same reason the software guy used C++? No clue,
and opamps are so easy????
Well now you can flame if you want.
Although I am not sure that design will burn.
LOL
hehe
Jon Kirwan
I figured a literal translation wouldn't cut it, already. So what
work is used, then, for the case describing a game that retains its
Spielwert very well even after playing it a few times? Or is it just
that it is explained with more than one word?
Thanks,
Jon
Jon Kirwan
<jo...@infinitefactors.org> wrote:
>So what work
Sorry, I meant 'so what _word_..."
Jon
Joel Koltner
news:h3750b$lfl$1...@news.albasani.net...
> Look at the diagram of the channel amplifiers.
> All opamps.
> You may as well replace that by triangles with NOISE written in it.
> And that is most likely why the thing has 4 bits noise of the 8 bits ADC.
What's the ADC's input range? If it's something like 1V, that's 3.9mV/bit.
which in a bandwidth of 100MHz 390nV/sqrt(Hz) -- a VERY noisy amplifier.
In other words... I do think one *could* readily design a 100MHz front-end
with an op-amp these days and still achieve 8 bit resolution. Whether or not
they did is another question, of course...
> So, anyways, with a couple of discretes you can make a much better amp
> in my opinion, probably cheaper too
Probably so, but they probably figured it was already cheap enough and didn't
have the skills to implement a discrete design.
> Why the guy used op-amps is perhaps the same reason the software guy used
> C++? No clue,
> and opamps are so easy????
Pretty much anything you get from Tek or Agilent these days is going to have
plenty of C or C++ (or even .Net!) in it these days.
---Joel
Joerg
No idea. I'll leave that to Falk since he lives there ;-)
Joerg
> "Jan Panteltje" <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:h3750b$lfl$1...@news.albasani.net...
>> Look at the diagram of the channel amplifiers.
>> All opamps.
>> You may as well replace that by triangles with NOISE written in it.
>> And that is most likely why the thing has 4 bits noise of the 8 bits ADC.
>
> What's the ADC's input range? If it's something like 1V, that's 3.9mV/bit.
> which in a bandwidth of 100MHz 390nV/sqrt(Hz) -- a VERY noisy amplifier.
>
> In other words... I do think one *could* readily design a 100MHz front-end
> with an op-amp these days and still achieve 8 bit resolution. Whether or not
> they did is another question, of course...
>
Sure, you've got the whole THS-series from Texas to do it with. Can be
had for around five bucks a pop and great noise performance. I did it
even in the 80's. Ok, the Harris amps back then were power-hungry and
expensive but then, thanks to VCRs becoming ubiquitous, there was (and
still is) this gem for under a buck:
http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/ua733.pdf
>> So, anyways, with a couple of discretes you can make a much better amp
>> in my opinion, probably cheaper too
>
> Probably so, but they probably figured it was already cheap enough and didn't
> have the skills to implement a discrete design.
>
Very common these days :-(
>> Why the guy used op-amps is perhaps the same reason the software guy used
>> C++? No clue,
>> and opamps are so easy????
>
> Pretty much anything you get from Tek or Agilent these days is going to have
> plenty of C or C++ (or even .Net!) in it these days.
>
My horror was a scope with a Windows-OS on there. Could have been
LeCroy, don't remember, because I instantly told the client we'd need a
"real" scope. This often leads to a trip into their basements where
there is a pile of Tektronix mainframes and stuff that nobody has used
in years. Usually they still work just fine.
Joel Koltner
news:7bpf5qF...@mid.individual.net...
> Sure, you've got the whole THS-series from Texas to do it with.
Yep, a THS4031 makes a pretty decent RF amplifier if you can tolerate the
~10dB noise figure.
> This often leads to a trip into their basements where there is a pile of
> Tektronix mainframes and stuff that nobody has used in years. Usually they
> still work just fine.
It might be a good interview technique to take a potential employee past a
bunch of that stuff and see whether or not his eyes light up appropriately
when show them a 2465b. :-)
Joerg
> "Joerg" <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> news:7bpf5qF...@mid.individual.net...
>> Sure, you've got the whole THS-series from Texas to do it with.
>
> Yep, a THS4031 makes a pretty decent RF amplifier if you can tolerate the
> ~10dB noise figure.
>
I like the THS4021 better, it's faster. The noise should be ok for a
scope. For really low noise measurements I use a couple of HP lab
amplifiers up front anyhow.
>> This often leads to a trip into their basements where there is a pile of
>> Tektronix mainframes and stuff that nobody has used in years. Usually they
>> still work just fine.
>
> It might be a good interview technique to take a potential employee past a
> bunch of that stuff and see whether or not his eyes light up appropriately
> when show them a 2465b. :-)
>
Oh yeah! One of the best every-day scopes ever built.
Rich Grise
>
> Mostly "Spielwert" is (or at least was) used if something had the
> potential of being entertaining but not necessarily of being all that
> useful. Like that midlife-crisis sports car purchase :-)
What's "Schadenfreude?"
Thanks,
Rich
Joerg
I don't think there's a literal translation. Maybe "being spiteful".
It's when something bad happens to another person or organization (whom
or which you may not like in the first place) and then you are somewhat
happy that it happened to him. Very common in "See, told ya so"
situations ;-)
Nico Coesel
>Nico Coesel wrote:
>> Falk Willberg <Fawegl...@falk-willberg.de> wrote:
>>
>>> Jan Panteltje schrieb:
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> For about 520 Euro you can buy a Rigol with 1G samples,
>>> As I am using Linux, I am quite happy with the open source. So I was
>>> able to add functions *I* wanted to have.
>>>
>>> Also very important: It has a lot of "Spielwert", (if someone could
>>> translate that, please ;-) ) and I don't want to use a 30 MHz analog
>>> LG5020 (or so) for 300� any longer...
>>
>> This is quite interesting. An oscilloscope for which you can hack your
>> own firmware... Except for using 4 ADCs per channel the concept of the
>> design isn't bad.
>>
>
>Have you ever thought what it means in terms of cost when you go from
>four 250MHz/8bit ADCs to sixteen of them just to have full bore in 4ch
>mode? It's like saying that I want my car to race up that steep hill at
>100km/h even when it tows the big trailer. Sure, you can get that, if
>you buy a Mercedes Benz S560. But does that make sense?
No, but I completely lost you at the first sentence... The Welec has
16 ADCs to make 4 channels. They probably use the FPGA's internal PLL
to make 4 phase shifted clocks (very common in an FPGA).
Joerg
> Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Nico Coesel wrote:
>>> Falk Willberg <Fawegl...@falk-willberg.de> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Jan Panteltje schrieb:
>>>>
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>>> For about 520 Euro you can buy a Rigol with 1G samples,
>>>> As I am using Linux, I am quite happy with the open source. So I was
>>>> able to add functions *I* wanted to have.
>>>>
>>>> Also very important: It has a lot of "Spielwert", (if someone could
>>>> translate that, please ;-) ) and I don't want to use a 30 MHz analog
>>>> LG5020 (or so) for 300� any longer...
>>> This is quite interesting. An oscilloscope for which you can hack your
>>> own firmware... Except for using 4 ADCs per channel the concept of the
>>> design isn't bad.
>>>
>> Have you ever thought what it means in terms of cost when you go from
>> four 250MHz/8bit ADCs to sixteen of them just to have full bore in 4ch
>> mode? It's like saying that I want my car to race up that steep hill at
>> 100km/h even when it tows the big trailer. Sure, you can get that, if
>> you buy a Mercedes Benz S560. But does that make sense?
>
> No, but I completely lost you at the first sentence... The Welec has
> 16 ADCs to make 4 channels. They probably use the FPGA's internal PLL
> to make 4 phase shifted clocks (very common in an FPGA).
>
They have 16 ADCs in there? Wow! Now I slowly begin to understand the
circumstances behind the bankruptcy ;-)
Phase-shifted clocks via FPGA can be ok for a scope but not if things
have to be super-precise. In my apps they usually have to so we
auto-tune the clocks to within tens of picoseconds from each other which
also mollifies aperture delay tolerances. Then, the offset needs to be
auto-cal'd out and if you want to be extra good also any gain
tolerances. Not doing this can screw up the FFT to some extent.
Falk Willberg
> Rich Grise wrote:
>> On Thu, 09 Jul 2009 16:15:25 -0700, Joerg wrote:
>>> Mostly "Spielwert" is (or at least was) used if something had the
>>> potential of being entertaining but not necessarily of being all that
>>> useful. Like that midlife-crisis sports car purchase :-)
>>
>> What's "Schadenfreude?"
>>
>
> I don't think there's a literal translation. Maybe "being spiteful".
dict.leo.org says: malicious joy.
Joerg
Yes, that would be quite correct but it's a two-word description, not a
noun.
BTW, in American the word "Schadenfreude" is used just like it is
written in German. A lot of times in newspaper articles where it is
expected that the average reader simply knows what it means.
Nico Coesel
Indeed. For GHz sampling you can only tolerate a few ps jitter. I
doubt the PLLs in the FPGAs are that good.
Nico Coesel
>Falk Willberg wrote:
>> Joerg schrieb:
>>> Rich Grise wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 09 Jul 2009 16:15:25 -0700, Joerg wrote:
>>>>> Mostly "Spielwert" is (or at least was) used if something had the
>>>>> potential of being entertaining but not necessarily of being all that
>>>>> useful. Like that midlife-crisis sports car purchase :-)
>>>> What's "Schadenfreude?"
>>>>
>>> I don't think there's a literal translation. Maybe "being spiteful".
>>
>> dict.leo.org says: malicious joy.
>
>
>Yes, that would be quite correct but it's a two-word description, not a
>noun.
Thats probably because English doesn't allow to stick two words
together to form a new word.
Frnak McKenney
> Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>>Falk Willberg wrote:
>>> Joerg schrieb:
>>>> Rich Grise wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 09 Jul 2009 16:15:25 -0700, Joerg wrote:
>>>>>> Mostly "Spielwert" is (or at least was) used if something had the
>>>>>> potential of being entertaining but not necessarily of being all that
>>>>>> useful. Like that midlife-crisis sports car purchase :-)
>>>>> What's "Schadenfreude?"
>>>>>
>>>> I don't think there's a literal translation. Maybe "being spiteful".
>>>
>>> dict.leo.org says: malicious joy.
>>
>>
>>Yes, that would be quite correct but it's a two-word description, not a
>>noun.
>
> Thats probably because English doesn't allow to stick two words
> together to form a new word.
counterexamples that everyone could download, but rather than overdo
it I guess I'll let brevity trump cleverness. <grin!>
http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Wikipedia:Basic_English_compound_wordlist
Frank Mckenney
--
The artistic temperament is a disease that afflicts amateurs. It
is a disease which arises from men not having sufficient power
of expression to utter and get rid of the element of art in their
being. ... The great tragedy of the artistic temperament is that
it cannot produce any art.
-- G.K. Chesterton: On the Wit of Whistler (1905)
--
Frank McKenney, McKenney Associates
Richmond, Virginia / (804) 320-4887
Munged E-mail: frank uscore mckenney ayut mined spring dawt cahm (y'all)
Joerg
> Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Falk Willberg wrote:
>>> Joerg schrieb:
>>>> Rich Grise wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 09 Jul 2009 16:15:25 -0700, Joerg wrote:
>>>>>> Mostly "Spielwert" is (or at least was) used if something had the
>>>>>> potential of being entertaining but not necessarily of being all that
>>>>>> useful. Like that midlife-crisis sports car purchase :-)
>>>>> What's "Schadenfreude?"
>>>>>
>>>> I don't think there's a literal translation. Maybe "being spiteful".
>>> dict.leo.org says: malicious joy.
>>
>> Yes, that would be quite correct but it's a two-word description, not a
>> noun.
>
> Thats probably because English doesn't allow to stick two words
> together to form a new word.
>
It does, but only after a few decades of pondering. Example: Data sheet
became datasheet.
Falk Willberg
> On Sat, 11 Jul 2009 06:52:28 GMT, Nico Coesel <ni...@puntnl.niks> wrote:
...
>> Thats probably because English doesn't allow to stick two words
>> together to form a new word.
>
> I was going to put a very clever paragraph into my newspost with
> counterexamples that everyone could download, but rather than overdo
> it I guess I'll let brevity trump cleverness. <grin!>
YMMD
krw
wrote:
>Nico Coesel wrote:
>> Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> Falk Willberg wrote:
>>>> Joerg schrieb:
>>>>> Rich Grise wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 09 Jul 2009 16:15:25 -0700, Joerg wrote:
>>>>>>> Mostly "Spielwert" is (or at least was) used if something had the
>>>>>>> potential of being entertaining but not necessarily of being all that
>>>>>>> useful. Like that midlife-crisis sports car purchase :-)
>>>>>> What's "Schadenfreude?"
>>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think there's a literal translation. Maybe "being spiteful".
>>>> dict.leo.org says: malicious joy.
>>>
>>> Yes, that would be quite correct but it's a two-word description, not a
>>> noun.
>>
>> Thats probably because English doesn't allow to stick two words
>> together to form a new word.
>>
>
>It does, but only after a few decades of pondering. Example: Data sheet
>became datasheet.
...often with hyphenated-words in the interim.
Rich Grise
> On Sat, 11 Jul 2009 06:52:28 GMT, Nico Coesel <ni...@puntnl.niks> wrote:
>> Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>Falk Willberg wrote:
>>>> Joerg schrieb:
>>>>> Rich Grise wrote:
>>>>>> What's "Schadenfreude?"
>>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think there's a literal translation. Maybe "being spiteful".
>>>>
>>>> dict.leo.org says: malicious joy.
>>>
>>>Yes, that would be quite correct but it's a two-word description, not a
>>>noun.
>>
>> Thats probably because English doesn't allow to stick two words
>> together to form a new word.
>
> I was going to put a very clever paragraph into my newspost with
> counterexamples that everyone could download, but rather than overdo
> it I guess I'll let brevity trump cleverness. <grin!>
>
> http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/
> Wikipedia:Basic_English_compound_wordlist
>
But the "wordlist" doesn't list 'wordlist'! ;-)
Cheers!
Rich
Joerg
But my netlist always renders a complete list of nets :-)
And that word ain't even on there ...