OT speaking of (heath) kits and 3-D printing

[George Herold]

So my son (age 16) bought a 3-D printer kit from here.
http://www.gearbest.com/3d-printers-3d-printer-kits/pp_337314.html
(shipping took a while.)

He built it in 2-3 evenings, no real help from me.

His first print worked fine. It's a new air nozzle for the
extruder.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lvm1yvsyen851cm/3d-printer.jpg?dl=0
(oh boy, it says welcome to the new dropbox are all my links broken?)
Let me know if you can't see the link.

~$170 to get started. very nice. We'll have to learn how to make
the models from a CAD file.. or whatever is used.

George H.

[Tim Wescott]

Actually, the lingo is that the 3D model is in the CAD file, and you make
a part with the printer.

Hopefully the printer works with common CAD formats -- there are some big-
name consumer 3D printers out there that try to capture you with their
proprietary CAD file format. I doubt that the kit people would want to
do that, though.

--
Tim Wescott
Control systems, embedded software and circuit design
I'm looking for work! See my website if you're interested
http://www.wescottdesign.com

[George Herold]

On Thursday, April 6, 2017 at 12:14:38 PM UTC-4, Tim Wescott wrote:
> On Thu, 06 Apr 2017 08:44:50 -0700, George Herold wrote:
>
> > So my son (age 16) bought a 3-D printer kit from here.
> > http://www.gearbest.com/3d-printers-3d-printer-kits/pp_337314.html
> > (shipping took a while.)
> >
> > He built it in 2-3 evenings, no real help from me.
> >
> > His first print worked fine. It's a new air nozzle for the extruder.
> >
> > https://www.dropbox.com/s/lvm1yvsyen851cm/3d-printer.jpg?dl=0 (oh boy,
> > it says welcome to the new dropbox are all my links broken?)
> > Let me know if you can't see the link.
> >
> > ~$170 to get started. very nice. We'll have to learn how to make the
> > models from a CAD file.. or whatever is used.
> >
> > George H.
>
> Actually, the lingo is that the 3D model is in the CAD file, and you make
> a part with the printer.

OK, so is it easy to go from the 3-D cad file to (whatever) to the slicer?
My son is much more knowledgeable than I on the whole subject.
Any cheap (free?) 3D cad software?

>
> Hopefully the printer works with common CAD formats -- there are some big-
> name consumer 3D printers out there that try to capture you with their
> proprietary CAD file format. I doubt that the kit people would want to
> do that, though.

Yeah at the moment he's downloading files from thingiverse.
(I assume they are "standard" format.)

I think he's hoping to sell stuff to his friends at school.
(darn capitalist :^)

George H.

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

gotta love this part: "Made from piano-black laser-cut acrylic frame. To maintain the garage-built feel and the handmade charm"

afaict all 3D printers that aren't stupidly expensive is basically a tool
for a hobby that involves 99% tweaking settings and 1% making stuff

[tabb...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, 6 April 2017 19:44:10 UTC+1, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> Den torsdag den 6. april 2017 kl. 17.44.55 UTC+2 skrev George Herold:
> > So my son (age 16) bought a 3-D printer kit from here.
> > http://www.gearbest.com/3d-printers-3d-printer-kits/pp_337314.html
> > (shipping took a while.)
> >
> > He built it in 2-3 evenings, no real help from me.
> >
> > His first print worked fine. It's a new air nozzle for the
> > extruder.
> >
> > https://www.dropbox.com/s/lvm1yvsyen851cm/3d-printer.jpg?dl=0
> > (oh boy, it says welcome to the new dropbox are all my links broken?)
> > Let me know if you can't see the link.
> >
> > ~$170 to get started. very nice. We'll have to learn how to make
> > the models from a CAD file.. or whatever is used.
> >
> > George H.
>
> gotta love this part: "Made from piano-black laser-cut acrylic frame. To maintain the garage-built feel and the handmade charm"

I see it comes in piano black or waste brown.

> afaict all 3D printers that aren't stupidly expensive is basically a tool
> for a hobby that involves 99% tweaking settings and 1% making stuff

NT

[dca...@krl.org]

On Thursday, April 6, 2017 at 12:49:06 PM UTC-4, George Herold wrote:
> > > So my son (age 16) bought a 3-D printer kit from here.
> > > http://www.gearbest.com/3d-printers-3d-printer-kits/pp_337314.html

> Any cheap (free?) 3D cad software?

Take a look at 123D software for 3D printing.
It is free and I think pretty good. It is an Autodesk product.

The local maker group and the library have done some classes on using it. I am not a user, but did have a look at it.

Dan

> >

> Yeah at the moment he's downloading files from thingiverse.
> (I assume they are "standard" format.)
>
> I think he's hoping to sell stuff to his friends at school.
> (darn capitalist :^)
>

He could also advertise doing programming and printing on Craigslist.

Dan


> George H.

[Don Y]

That may be a fair assessment -- I think it depends on what you want
to *do* with the printer (i.e., the printed works).

I was disappointed in the "cosmetics" of the parts that were available
from the printers to which I have "free" access. And, the mechanical
strength of the products.

[Fine if you want to print some "curio" to set on your desk!]

And, if you want to *design* something (instead of "printing from a
catalog" -- why not just ORDER the printed part??), the effort to
build the 3D models represents a far greater "investment" than the
savings of 3D printing (vs. having it cut from a block of aluminum/etc.
with a wire EDM)

I think for the industry to move beyond hobbyist/tinkerers, there
needs to be an easy/reliable/accurate way of building a model from
a tangible part (i.e., 3D scan) coupled with a way of producing a
printed part that is of comparable mechanical and cosmetic quality
as the "original".

[tabb...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, 6 April 2017 20:53:38 UTC+1, Don Y wrote:
> On 4/6/2017 11:44 AM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> > Den torsdag den 6. april 2017 kl. 17.44.55 UTC+2 skrev George Herold:

snips

> >> So my son (age 16) bought a 3-D printer kit from here.
> >> http://www.gearbest.com/3d-printers-3d-printer-kits/pp_337314.html
> >> (shipping took a while.)

> > afaict all 3D printers that aren't stupidly expensive is basically a tool
> > for a hobby that involves 99% tweaking settings and 1% making stuff

> I think for the industry to move beyond hobbyist/tinkerers, there
> needs to be an easy/reliable/accurate way of building a model from
> a tangible part (i.e., 3D scan)

I expect a very soft xray scanner could do that

> coupled with a way of producing a
> printed part that is of comparable mechanical and cosmetic quality
> as the "original".

cosmetic: acetone.
mechanial: post heat treatment (so I hear)


NT

[Tom Gardner]

On 06/04/17 19:44, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> afaict all 3D printers that aren't stupidly expensive is basically a tool
> for a hobby that involves 99% tweaking settings and 1% making stuff

Home 3D printers are a great tool for those that enjoy
fettling.

But sending STL files to a commercial printing house is
a great way of getting remarkably cheap and good complex
designs fabricated. The wide variety of materials is useful.

[Tim Wescott]

On Thu, 06 Apr 2017 09:48:57 -0700, George Herold wrote:

> On Thursday, April 6, 2017 at 12:14:38 PM UTC-4, Tim Wescott wrote:
>> On Thu, 06 Apr 2017 08:44:50 -0700, George Herold wrote:
>>
>> > So my son (age 16) bought a 3-D printer kit from here.
>> > http://www.gearbest.com/3d-printers-3d-printer-kits/pp_337314.html
>> > (shipping took a while.)
>> >
>> > He built it in 2-3 evenings, no real help from me.
>> >
>> > His first print worked fine. It's a new air nozzle for the extruder.
>> >
>> > https://www.dropbox.com/s/lvm1yvsyen851cm/3d-printer.jpg?dl=0 (oh
>> > boy,
>> > it says welcome to the new dropbox are all my links broken?)
>> > Let me know if you can't see the link.
>> >
>> > ~$170 to get started. very nice. We'll have to learn how to make
>> > the models from a CAD file.. or whatever is used.
>> >
>> > George H.
>>
>> Actually, the lingo is that the 3D model is in the CAD file, and you
>> make a part with the printer.
> OK, so is it easy to go from the 3-D cad file to (whatever) to the
> slicer?

Dunno -- I believe so. The closest I've gotten is making 3D models and
emailing them to a friend with a printer.

> My son is much more knowledgeable than I on the whole subject.
> Any cheap (free?) 3D cad software?

FreeCAD is free open-source 3D software. It's evolving rapidly, I
believe in thanks to 3D printing.

https://www.freecadweb.org/

As is typical of FOSS, the documentation sucks but the web forum is
excellent. I'm pretty sure that at least one of the regulars on the
"newbie help" forum is a developer, and there's a lot of helpful power
users.

>>
>> Hopefully the printer works with common CAD formats -- there are some
>> big-
>> name consumer 3D printers out there that try to capture you with their
>> proprietary CAD file format. I doubt that the kit people would want to
>> do that, though.
>
> Yeah at the moment he's downloading files from thingiverse.
> (I assume they are "standard" format.)

STEP and IGIS are the two common standard formats.

> I think he's hoping to sell stuff to his friends at school.
> (darn capitalist :^)

I think there's going to be a lot of cottage-industry style 3D printing.
Lots of gizmos to be built -- I visited one of my customers a few weeks
ago and they were showing me their 3D printed cases.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

I'm looking for work -- see my website!

[George Herold]

So far so good... he (my son) futzed around a bit getting the bed level,
(they have a screw at each corner.) But after one failed print... it's
been all printing and no tweaking.

We'll see how it goes.

George H.

[George Herold]

We (where I work) do low volume things, a 3D printer might make
sense for that type of stuff.

George H.

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

I think it is like PCBs, in most cases you are better off getting someone
pro to do it for you

[Don Y]

It would be great for prototypes and conceptual models -- the sorts
of things that make Marketroids drool. Alpha test? Probably (as
that's a controlled set of "friendly" users). Beta test? Probably
not -- unless the users involved were VERY sympathetic and
accommodating (last thing you want them doing is complaining that
the unit BROKE... *easily*).

I'd not consider it for pilot production -- unless outsourced to
a firm that focused on addressing the potential shortcomings
(like soft-tooled vs. hard-tooled... ultra-soft-tooled? :> )

I was thinking about knocking together a new "access door" for
one of my disk docks as the original (flimsy) part shit the bed.
Should be a relatively simple design (no complex curves, etc.).
And, no real cosmetic issues (I'd use the dock WITHOUT the
door but the door does double-duty as an ejection mechanism).

But, it would be hit-or-miss... wondering how much I should
beef up the portions of the manufacturer's design that had failed
especially in light of the uncertainty involved in "changing
materials".

[OTOH, I'd be very comfortable with an aluminum casting...]

[Tom Gardner]

On 06/04/17 17:48, George Herold wrote:
> Any cheap (free?) 3D cad software?

A lot depends on how you want to express your design.

If you want to start with basic shapes (spheres, cuboids,
cones etc) then add/subtract/rotate/translate/scale/shear
them using a declarative programming language, then
take a look at OpenSCAD and its many brethren. Some are
installed applications, some are executed in the browser.

For simple "cleaning up" the generated triangles in the
STL file, use netfabb basic.

[Adrian Jansen]

I use OpenSCAD from here http://www.openscad.org/

Looks and feels like a programming language, so familiar to me. Good
documentation, and easy to use.

--
Regards,

Adrian Jansen

[Martin Riddle]

Freecad and I think google sketchup are pretty much free.
Freecad may have more bells and whistles, and probably a script
interface.

Cheers

[mike]

One of the benefits of 3Dprinting is that you can make stuff that
you can't make on a mill. Internal/externally inaccessible
cavities, for example.
Scanners aren't very good at "observing" those features.
A feature that's shadowed or "inside" won't be captured correctly.

I've been observing a newbie with an A8 for 4 months. He's made a lot
of gizmos that improve the machine...stuff that should have been
included with the machine. You can't make a decent print without
a better cooling nozzle. Why can't they just ship it with the correctly
shaped nozzle?!!

He's burned thru a lot of filament, but never made a single useful thing
that wasn't an improvement to the machine, and has no plans that require
doing so.

If you can imagine your part as addition or subtraction of spheres,
cylinders and cubes, TinkerCad is trivial to use. There are more
complex base shapes, but the concept is the same.

One issue with printers is that many use proprietary "chipped"
filament spools that cost 3X the price of generic filament.
Yes, it removes some of the variables, but you can't easily
tweek the parameters when it doesn't work right.
And PLA gets brittle with time. If you don't use it, you lose it.
I've read a lot of opinions on why, but they conflict.

There are a lot of options for having your designs fabricated.
Must be a lot of bored people with idle printers, cuz there are
ads for printing services on craigslist.

I live two blocks from a UPS store with a 3D printer. Their
sample ABS prints are amazing.
Problem with all the options is the high cost of getting it done.
UPS quoted $26 for a case for an EBAY circuit board designed
on thingiverse. Not gonna happen.

If you have an obsolete tool with a busted plastic piece,
you can imagine making the part. How often does that happen?

I'd like to have a 3D printer. I keep a running list of all
the things I'd print if I had one. After 4 months, it's
still blank.
But I'm still gonna buy one as soon as I meet that person
who's finally realized that they'll never use it and puts
it out at the garage sale.

[Don Y]

But its rare that you *need* to make such an object -- that you can't
come up with an equivalent object (even if it requires two or more
pieces).

> I've been observing a newbie with an A8 for 4 months. He's made a lot
> of gizmos that improve the machine...stuff that should have been
> included with the machine. You can't make a decent print without
> a better cooling nozzle. Why can't they just ship it with the correctly
> shaped nozzle?!!
>
> He's burned thru a lot of filament, but never made a single useful thing
> that wasn't an improvement to the machine, and has no plans that require
> doing so.

So, he's obviously got a hobby... :>

> If you can imagine your part as addition or subtraction of spheres,
> cylinders and cubes, TinkerCad is trivial to use. There are more
> complex base shapes, but the concept is the same.
>
> One issue with printers is that many use proprietary "chipped"
> filament spools that cost 3X the price of generic filament.
> Yes, it removes some of the variables, but you can't easily
> tweek the parameters when it doesn't work right.
> And PLA gets brittle with time. If you don't use it, you lose it.
> I've read a lot of opinions on why, but they conflict.
>
> There are a lot of options for having your designs fabricated.
> Must be a lot of bored people with idle printers, cuz there are
> ads for printing services on craigslist.

I think there's too much of a "cool" factor involved. Folks THINK
they'll be able to do all sorts of things. Then, realize that,
aside from printing something that someone else thought was
"cool" (hey, why not just buy the pre-printed item from a GOOD
fab?), there is little *real* need -- to offset the effort to get
a quality result.

Decades ago, an employer had an etch tank. With a fair bit of
work, we could make double-sided boards -- good for things like
power supplies and other analog designs. But, when you looked
at the effort required to layout the design, etch the board(s),
drill them, stuff them, etc. it was just easier to pay someone else
to maintain the *proper* equipment for the job.

OTOH, there was no problem maintaining 8000 sq ft of "machine shop"
and the staff to keep it running. Keeping a Bridgeport "productive"
is a much easier task!

> I live two blocks from a UPS store with a 3D printer. Their
> sample ABS prints are amazing.
> Problem with all the options is the high cost of getting it done.
> UPS quoted $26 for a case for an EBAY circuit board designed
> on thingiverse. Not gonna happen.

Different marketing position. As a *business*, getting a custom enclosure
made for (ONLY!) $26 would be a deal! Esp if it was of good cosmetic quality.
I've had to machine blocks of lexan and/or wood to create touchy-feelies
for clients. If I cold have a real *enclosure* and actually put boards
in it -- beyond just a painted object to tickle the imagination -- it'd
be a much easier "sell" to have a WORKING prototype!

But, as a hobbyist, you'd instead opt for a COTS plastic/aluminum case
and a bit of time with a coarse file...

> If you have an obsolete tool with a busted plastic piece,
> you can imagine making the part. How often does that happen?

Actually, its pretty rare that you don't have the *pieces* that
made up the part. The problem is, usually, that reassembling those
pieces (superglue) doesn't result in a "replacement part" that
has the structural integrity of the original. Or, that some pieces
might get lost or distorted in the process.

But, if you could import the "scan" into a CAD program and tweak
it, there, I think you'd be happy with the results.

I'd exploit a printer to make new cases for wall-warts/bricks.
And battery assemblies. In each case, disassembling them (solvent
welded) invariably alters the size/shape and cosmetics of the original
when you attempt to reassemble it. With a scanner/printer, place
the dead -- though physically intact -- wall-wart/brick/battery
on the scanner, capture the 3D image, then *butcher* it with Dremel.
No need to try to salvage the old shell!

Tweak the 3D model (to add overhanging lips on the mating half-shells)
and print the replacement -- complete with openings for jewel
indicators, cords, connectors, etc.

> I'd like to have a 3D printer. I keep a running list of all
> the things I'd print if I had one. After 4 months, it's
> still blank.
> But I'm still gonna buy one as soon as I meet that person
> who's finally realized that they'll never use it and puts
> it out at the garage sale.

Local makerspaces tend to have "many" that you can use -- for the
price of the filament. My noted objections apply to all of their
kit. The lack of a (quality) "scanner" just makes things worse.

I've come up with a few uses for lasercutters -- though they are
compromises necessitated by the limitations placed on the material.
(trick is getting ALL the designs laid out before tackling them
and imagining what might go wrong -- its not YOUR shop in which you'd
have free reign)

By far, most desirable bits of kit, for me, would be:
- spot welder
- spot welder for *battery* tabs
- brake and other metal forming kit
- quality sand casting
- panel saw (I *can* find that, locally, but hauling oversized stock
to/from it becomes a problem!)

Yet, none are the sorts of things that I would need/use more than
very infrequently -- not enough need to drive a purchasing decision
(instead, I mail items to out-of-state friends/colleagues and
redeem "favors" when needed)

[dca...@krl.org]

[George Herold]

Have you used this Tim? I've only used 2-D cad programs,
pretty basic stuff. I wouldn't mind paying ~$500 (one time) for something
with a nicer interface/ documentation. I think my son is using
Autodesk inventor at his school.

> >>
> >> Hopefully the printer works with common CAD formats -- there are some
> >> big-
> >> name consumer 3D printers out there that try to capture you with their
> >> proprietary CAD file format. I doubt that the kit people would want to
> >> do that, though.
> >
> > Yeah at the moment he's downloading files from thingiverse.
> > (I assume they are "standard" format.)
>
> STEP and IGIS are the two common standard formats.
>
> > I think he's hoping to sell stuff to his friends at school.
> > (darn capitalist :^)
>
> I think there's going to be a lot of cottage-industry style 3D printing.
> Lots of gizmos to be built -- I visited one of my customers a few weeks
> ago and they were showing me their 3D printed cases.

I got home from work last night and it was buzzing away in his room.
He's got orders for three "spiny things" at school... and is already
dreaming of different plastics and colors.
So I'm feeling somewhat motivated to be able to design my own gizmos.

George H.

[George Herold]

On Thursday, April 6, 2017 at 5:33:40 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
> On 06/04/17 17:48, George Herold wrote:
> > Any cheap (free?) 3D cad software?
>
> A lot depends on how you want to express your design.

I've only done 2-D cad. lines and circles etc. with a GUI.

>
> If you want to start with basic shapes (spheres, cuboids,
> cones etc) then add/subtract/rotate/translate/scale/shear
> them using a declarative programming language, then
> take a look at OpenSCAD and its many brethren. Some are
> installed applications, some are executed in the browser.

OK thanks I'll look at that too.

George H.

[George Herold]

Grin, the first thing my son made was the better nozzle.

Right the first thing I think of is taking a piece of metal/
plastic to the mill and making what I need.
But we have some parts made that might be better/cheaper if done
with a 3D printer. I still have to wrap my head around the
possilbities.

> But I'm still gonna buy one as soon as I meet that person
> who's finally realized that they'll never use it and puts
> it out at the garage sale.

~$170 is not much to buy one new...

George H.

[Tom Gardner]

On 07/04/17 16:46, George Herold wrote:
> On Thursday, April 6, 2017 at 5:33:40 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
>> On 06/04/17 17:48, George Herold wrote:
>>> Any cheap (free?) 3D cad software?
>>
>> A lot depends on how you want to express your design.
> I've only done 2-D cad. lines and circles etc. with a GUI.
>
>>
>> If you want to start with basic shapes (spheres, cuboids,
>> cones etc) then add/subtract/rotate/translate/scale/shear
>> them using a declarative programming language, then
>> take a look at OpenSCAD and its many brethren. Some are
>> installed applications, some are executed in the browser.
>
> OK thanks I'll look at that too.

It is worth it for mechanical devices rather than arty
stuff. It is useless for wireframe shapes that you push
and pull until they look right.

There are many user libraries around. I've used ones for
fonts when printing a doorbell message in brass, and screw
threads when making a handle for my Tek 12kV scope probe
out of stereolithographic plastic (SLA).

There is a linux variant of OpenSCAD for those that are
too dimwitted to be able to use Windows.

Paramaterisation is relatively easy, provided you construct
sub-shapes in the appropriate order.

ISTR a completely different application where you
explicitly declare constraint such as "this hole is
halfway along that" and "this is big enough to touch
that" etc. As I said, the most appropriate
application depends on how you want to design.

> George H.
>>
>> For simple "cleaning up" the generated triangles in the
>> STL file, use netfabb basic.

For dimwits like me, Netfabb also runs under WINE.

[k...@notreal.com]

On Fri, 7 Apr 2017 08:46:28 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
<ghe...@teachspin.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, April 6, 2017 at 5:33:40 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
>> On 06/04/17 17:48, George Herold wrote:
>> > Any cheap (free?) 3D cad software?
>>
>> A lot depends on how you want to express your design.
>I've only done 2-D cad. lines and circles etc. with a GUI.
>
>>
>> If you want to start with basic shapes (spheres, cuboids,
>> cones etc) then add/subtract/rotate/translate/scale/shear
>> them using a declarative programming language, then
>> take a look at OpenSCAD and its many brethren. Some are
>> installed applications, some are executed in the browser.
>
>OK thanks I'll look at that too.

It depends on what you're really into but for a 3D modeling (as
opposed to CAD) program, I really like Sketchup. I don't know if
there is a 3D printer output for it but it wouldn't surprise me.

[Tim Wescott]

Yes, I've done a number of design studies for customers showing how
boards go into cases (KiCad will do a 3D model of a board that can be
imported into FreeCad), and I've done one hobby project for real (a pilot
figure for a model airplane).

>> >> Hopefully the printer works with common CAD formats -- there are
>> >> some big-
>> >> name consumer 3D printers out there that try to capture you with
>> >> their proprietary CAD file format. I doubt that the kit people
>> >> would want to do that, though.
>> >
>> > Yeah at the moment he's downloading files from thingiverse.
>> > (I assume they are "standard" format.)
>>
>> STEP and IGIS are the two common standard formats.
>>
>> > I think he's hoping to sell stuff to his friends at school.
>> > (darn capitalist :^)
>>
>> I think there's going to be a lot of cottage-industry style 3D
>> printing.
>> Lots of gizmos to be built -- I visited one of my customers a few weeks
>> ago and they were showing me their 3D printed cases.
>
> I got home from work last night and it was buzzing away in his room.
> He's got orders for three "spiny things" at school... and is already
> dreaming of different plastics and colors.
> So I'm feeling somewhat motivated to be able to design my own gizmos.

Do you _really_ think you're going to get time on _his_ machine? You'll
be last in line, buddy.

[dca...@krl.org]

On Friday, April 7, 2017 at 11:35:51 AM UTC-4, George Herold wrote:

I think my son is using
> Autodesk inventor at his school.
>

> George H.

I repeat look at Autodesk 123D. It is free and I suspect similar to Autodesk inventor.

Dan

[George Herold]

Grin.. no it's not like that. Though if there was lots of demand
another printer is cheap. Do you have any idea what people charge
for time? My WAG was $2/hr. (with some setup fee..)

The kinematics of a 3D printer must be an interesting subject.

George H.

[George Herold]

OK, and maybe he (the boy) already understands the interface.
I was telling (bragging to) my brother about the 3D and
he said, Goodie (A common friend, but more his buddy) is doing
all sorts of printing these days, and was saying that the software is
free now... Autodesk fits the bill.

George H.

[DemonicTubes]

From Wikipedia: "All 123D apps will be discontinued by Autodesk beginning November 2016 and completing March 2017."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autodesk_123D

[dca...@krl.org]

Well that sucks.

Dan