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UL note on PCB fab drawing

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John Larkin

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Jun 27, 2013, 12:03:29 PM6/27/13
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PCBs need to have something like this if they are going to pass UL/CE.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/PCBs/UL_Note.jpg

Some board houses always do it, some don't.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology Inc
www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com

Precision electronic instrumentation
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators
Custom timing and laser controllers
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links
VME analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer
Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators

Spehro Pefhany

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Jun 27, 2013, 12:36:20 PM6/27/13
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On Thu, 27 Jun 2013 09:03:29 -0700, John Larkin
<jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

>
>PCBs need to have something like this if they are going to pass UL/CE.
>
>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/PCBs/UL_Note.jpg
>
>Some board houses always do it, some don't.

I presume that's a typo for "UL recognized material".

It's an option on the online ordering on one that I use.

no
add to top silkscreen
add to bottom silkscreen
add to top soldermask
add to bottom soldermask
add to top copper
add to bottom copper

Don't think I'd want them to add it to a copper layer all on their
own.

John Larkin

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Jun 27, 2013, 1:06:20 PM6/27/13
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On Thu, 27 Jun 2013 12:36:20 -0400, Spehro Pefhany
<spef...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:

>On Thu, 27 Jun 2013 09:03:29 -0700, John Larkin
><jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>PCBs need to have something like this if they are going to pass UL/CE.
>>
>>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/PCBs/UL_Note.jpg
>>
>>Some board houses always do it, some don't.
>
>I presume that's a typo for "UL recognized material".

Probably. Our PCB fabber suggested that wording. None of those guys
can spell.


>
>It's an option on the online ordering on one that I use.
>
>no
>add to top silkscreen
>add to bottom silkscreen
>add to top soldermask
>add to bottom soldermask
>add to top copper
>add to bottom copper
>
>Don't think I'd want them to add it to a copper layer all on their
>own.

That's commonly done. I've had copper text added in the middle of a
high voltage isolation region, a nice clear target for graffiti, when
my fab notes said to not do that.

Topside silk is best so the cert labs can see it in plain sight.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

Precision electronic instrumentation
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators
Custom laser drivers and controllers
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links
VME thermocouple, LVDT, synchro acquisition and simulation

rickman

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Jun 27, 2013, 4:06:01 PM6/27/13
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Maybe you can help me. Why would this notice need to be printed in any
manner on the PCB itself? I can see adding it to the fab drawing, but
why on the PCB? It doesn't say it is required to be printed on the PCB,
is that part of the spec?

I don't even like that the fab house I use puts ink stamps on the
boards. If I wanted some marking to be on the board I would bloody well
put it there.

--

Rick

John Larkin

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Jun 27, 2013, 4:43:39 PM6/27/13
to
My customer, a big company starting with "A", is taking the whole
system through all the CE/UL etc certifications. They want to see the
bare-board manufacturer name and UL classification on every board, as
a "permanent marking".

rickman

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Jun 27, 2013, 5:07:08 PM6/27/13
to
On 6/27/2013 4:43 PM, John Larkin wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Jun 2013 16:06:01 -0400, rickman<gnu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Maybe you can help me. Why would this notice need to be printed in any
>> manner on the PCB itself? I can see adding it to the fab drawing, but
>> why on the PCB? It doesn't say it is required to be printed on the PCB,
>> is that part of the spec?
>>
>> I don't even like that the fab house I use puts ink stamps on the
>> boards. If I wanted some marking to be on the board I would bloody well
>> put it there.
>
> My customer, a big company starting with "A", is taking the whole
> system through all the CE/UL etc certifications. They want to see the
> bare-board manufacturer name and UL classification on every board, as
> a "permanent marking".

I get that, but do the details of the spec need to be included? Don't
you normally just include the logo or something similar? It even says
that you need to include the UL recognized maker's logo and type code.
It doesn't say anything about including details of the spec...

Or do I misunderstand what you are doing?

--

Rick

John Larkin

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Jun 27, 2013, 5:16:47 PM6/27/13
to
I'm trying to get this thing through a test lab to get UL and CE
certifications. I'm not enjoying this. They require the PCB fab house
to be UL registered, and they want to see their company logo and the
UL type classification on the board in permanent marking.

I don't know what you mean by "including details of the spec." What we
need to do is add this paragraph to our PCB fab drawing, so that the
board house marks the required stuff on every board.

I posted it because I thought it might be helpful.

Martin Riddle

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Jun 27, 2013, 6:27:28 PM6/27/13
to
On Thu, 27 Jun 2013 09:03:29 -0700, John Larkin
<jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

>
>PCBs need to have something like this if they are going to pass UL/CE.
>
>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/PCBs/UL_Note.jpg
>
>Some board houses always do it, some don't.

You need to locate an area for them to put it.
Also, put a note on the PO so its clear that you NEED it.

UL likes to see it on the boards during inspection.

We've been doing this for years. The chinese fabs tend to leave it
out.

Cheers

Jon Elson

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Jun 27, 2013, 6:41:49 PM6/27/13
to
John Larkin wrote:


> I'm trying to get this thing through a test lab to get UL and CE
> certifications. I'm not enjoying this. They require the PCB fab house
> to be UL registered, and they want to see their company logo and the
> UL type classification on the board in permanent marking.
My understanding of how they do this (and I am NOT a lawyer)
is the board needs to have the maker's ID or logo, the symbol of the
recognized testing lab (can be UL or other) and the board maker's
registration number at that testing lab, and the certification the
board meets. So, that could look like "Boards-R-Us 94V0 UL 12345"
printed in the silkscreen layer of the board.

Jon

legg

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Jun 27, 2013, 8:17:00 PM6/27/13
to
On Thu, 27 Jun 2013 09:03:29 -0700, John Larkin
<jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

>
>PCBs need to have something like this if they are going to pass UL/CE.
>
>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/PCBs/UL_Note.jpg
>
>Some board houses always do it, some don't.

Specifying a location for the board house's UL recognized mark on a
nonconductive gerber layer, along with the usual comment re 'add no
conductive patterns' is usually sufficient.

RL

rickman

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Jun 27, 2013, 7:18:37 PM6/27/13
to
Ok, I get it. I had the impression you intended to include the text of
the image in your PCB layout. Your first post said, "PCBs need to have
something like this". You meant "PCB *drawings* need...".

Why would it be hard to get them to include their logo, etc. If they
are UL certified I would expect they would be quite familiar with this.
Do you discuss the board when you submit it for a quote? I always try
to have a discussion if there are any sticky points.

--

Rick

Martin Riddle

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Jun 27, 2013, 7:32:51 PM6/27/13
to

"Martin Riddle" <marti...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:ureps81dmsmg5do8b...@4ax.com...
Non RoHS Notes that I include...
Notes:

1. MATERIAL 0.062 THICK, EPOXY GLASS FR-4, 1OZ. COPPER CLAD
BOTH SIDES BEFORE PLATING.

2. FRONT TO BACK REGISTRATION TO BE WITHIN 0.0025".

3. HOLES NOT DIMENSIONALLY LOCATED SHALL BE WITHIN 0.005"
OF THE POSITION AS LOCATED ON THE MASTER DRAWING.

4. UNLESS OTHERWISE SPECIFIED ALL HOLES SHALL BE PLATED-THRU
HOLE DIAMETER TOLERANCES APPLY AFTER PLATING.

5. ELECTROPLATED COPPER SHALL BE USED FOR THE PLATED-THRU
HOLES, AND SHALL HAVE A MIN. THICKNESS OF 0.001" ON THE
HOLE WALLS.

6. ALL EXPOSED CONDUCTIVE SURFACES ON LAYERS 1 AND 4
INCLUDING PLATED-THRU HOLES, SHALL HAVE AN ELECTROPLATED
SOLDER COAT WITH A MIN. THICKNESS OF 0.0003". THE SOLDER COAT
SHALL CONTAIN A MIN. OF 60% TIN.

7. WHERE APPLICABLE, EDGE FINGERS ARE TO BE GOLD PLATED
.00005" MIN. OVER NICKEL .00020" MIN. (TO DIMENSION SHOWN)

8. BOARDS SHALL BE SOLDER MASKED ON LAYER 1 AND 4 OVER BARE
COPPER CONDUCTORS. THE SOLDER MASK SHALL BE GREEN SOLDER
RESIST LIQUID PHOTO-IMAGEABLE, MATTE FINISH.

9. SOLDER MASK SHALL BE APPLIED PRIOR TO SCREENING.

10. SCREEN ALL LEGENDS IN WORNOW INK 50-100, GLOSS WHITE.

11. BOARD MUST BE ETCHED IN COPPER ON SOLDER SIDE WITH MANUFACTURER
NAME, INITIALS OR LOGO, UL RECOGNITION MARK AND FLAME RATING
IN LOCATION SHOWN.



boB

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Jun 27, 2013, 9:33:29 PM6/27/13
to
Number 11 is close to what we do.

If you are going to have UL rather than ETL, CSA or some other NRTL do
the listing, realize that UL sometimes does not always follow their
own documentation and could possibly have you do things that are not
required in the UL specification you are trying to get listed to.

boB


John Larkin

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Jun 28, 2013, 2:45:49 PM6/28/13
to
On Thu, 27 Jun 2013 19:32:51 -0400, "Martin Riddle"
<marti...@verizon.net> wrote:

>
Nice fab notes. We've gone to all gold-over-nickel on the pads, so we
can build ROHS or not.

I'd allow silk or copper for #11. Our main board house uses silk for
his id and date code.

We like yellow on blue, but that's just us. We recently did one board
with black solder mask, to keep some things dark.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

Precision electronic instrumentation
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators
Custom laser drivers and controllers
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links
Message has been deleted

Raveninghorde

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Jun 30, 2013, 3:58:28 PM6/30/13
to
On Thu, 27 Jun 2013 17:41:49 -0500, Jon Elson <jme...@wustl.edu>
wrote:
You actually have to check the PCB company UL listing. Easy to do. Ask
the company for their UL file number and then look it up at ul.com.

Sometimes these require a logo, sometimes the company name, sometimes
the UL file number. Markings can vary for one company depending on
whether the board is double layer or multi layer.

PCB companies often have to be reminded of their UL file requirements.
We have a chewck of UL markings as part of incoming goods inspection.

A problem we have had is with date coding. Sometimes we have had
wwyy and other times yyww from the same company. Having had boards
marked 0709 we have had trouble pinning down actual date for UL
inspection. We now specify how the date code should be done.

Raveninghorde

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Jun 30, 2013, 6:25:18 PM6/30/13
to
On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 20:58:28 +0100, Raveninghorde
<raveninghorde@invalid> wrote:

>On Thu, 27 Jun 2013 17:41:49 -0500, Jon Elson <jme...@wustl.edu>
>wrote:
>
>>John Larkin wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I'm trying to get this thing through a test lab to get UL and CE
>>> certifications. I'm not enjoying this. They require the PCB fab house
>>> to be UL registered, and they want to see their company logo and the
>>> UL type classification on the board in permanent marking.
>>My understanding of how they do this (and I am NOT a lawyer)
>>is the board needs to have the maker's ID or logo, the symbol of the
>>recognized testing lab (can be UL or other) and the board maker's
>>registration number at that testing lab, and the certification the
>>board meets. So, that could look like "Boards-R-Us 94V0 UL 12345"
>>printed in the silkscreen layer of the board.
>>
>>Jon
>
>You actually have to check the PCB company UL listing. Easy to do. Ask
>the company for their UL file number and then look it up at ul.com.
>
>Sometimes these require a logo, sometimes the company name, sometimes
>the UL file number. Markings can vary for one company depending on
>whether the board is double layer or multi layer.

Example from UL file:

Marking: Company name or trademark or file number and type
designation. May be followed by a suffix to denote factory
identification or burning test classification.

sms

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Jul 7, 2013, 1:31:10 AM7/7/13
to
On 6/27/2013 1:06 PM, rickman wrote:

> Maybe you can help me. Why would this notice need to be printed in any
> manner on the PCB itself? I can see adding it to the fab drawing, but
> why on the PCB? It doesn't say it is required to be printed on the PCB,
> is that part of the spec?
>
> I don't even like that the fab house I use puts ink stamps on the
> boards. If I wanted some marking to be on the board I would bloody well
> put it there.

The inspectors that come to the factory on their unannounced inspections
look for the UL logo on the board. For small components subject to UL
approval they check that the component being used is the one on the
board or in the product, but for a PCB they would have no way of knowing
if the actual board material is recognized or not.

I recall getting a panicked call from Comp USA when I worked for a
motherboard company that supplied motherboards for Comp USA's line of
computers (Compudyne) that they were building in each store. Each store
was a UL approved factory. Someone in Taiwan had substituted a non-UL
lithium battery on the board. The inspector caught it right away since
batteries are a big deal to UL. The person in Taiwan was trying to save
money, unaware of the reasons why we had specified a certain part.

Message has been deleted

DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno

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Feb 13, 2016, 8:28:13 AM2/13/16
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On Sat, 13 Feb 2016 01:10:16 -0800, abqink wrote:


> Our Main products:

STOP spamming this group, retarded fuck!

John Larkin

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Feb 13, 2016, 11:56:03 AM2/13/16
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It's a robot. It can't hear you.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

krw

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Feb 13, 2016, 12:13:11 PM2/13/16
to
On Sat, 13 Feb 2016 08:57:00 -0800, John Larkin
<jjla...@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

>On Sat, 13 Feb 2016 13:28:08 +0000 (UTC), DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno
><DL...@DecadentLinuxUser.org> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 13 Feb 2016 01:10:16 -0800, abqink wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Our Main products:
>>
>>STOP spamming this group, retarded fuck!
>
>It's a robot. It can't hear you.

Which one?

Michael A. Terrell

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Feb 13, 2016, 7:16:18 PM2/13/16
to

John Larkin wrote:
>
> On Sat, 13 Feb 2016 13:28:08 +0000 (UTC), DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno
> <DL...@DecadentLinuxUser.org> wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 13 Feb 2016 01:10:16 -0800, abqink wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Our Main products:
> >
> >STOP spamming this group, retarded fuck!
>
> It's a robot. It can't hear you.


The Spam Whore, or the Troll Bot?

DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno

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Feb 14, 2016, 8:21:34 AM2/14/16
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On Sat, 13 Feb 2016 12:12:57 -0500, krw wrote:


> Which one?

Your slut mother, of course. Too much jizz in her ears.

DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno

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Feb 14, 2016, 8:28:41 AM2/14/16
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Aren't you dead yet, jackass?

krw

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Feb 14, 2016, 9:27:38 AM2/14/16
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AlwaysWrong's class shows through again.

DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno

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Feb 14, 2016, 1:18:57 PM2/14/16
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You were the dumbfucks mouthing off, and you deserve all the derision
you get.. You and your entire fucked bloodline, jackass.

krw

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Feb 14, 2016, 5:55:33 PM2/14/16
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On Sun, 14 Feb 2016 18:18:48 +0000 (UTC), DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno
<DL...@DecadentLinuxUser.org> wrote:

>On Sun, 14 Feb 2016 09:27:31 -0500, krw wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 14 Feb 2016 13:21:25 +0000 (UTC), DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno
>> <DL...@DecadentLinuxUser.org> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 13 Feb 2016 12:12:57 -0500, krw wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Which one?
>>>
>>> Your slut mother, of course. Too much jizz in her ears.
>>
>> AlwaysWrong's class shows through again.
>
> You were the dumbfucks mouthing off, and you deserve all the derision
>you get.. You and your entire fucked bloodline, jackass.

Keep it up, AlwaysWrong. I'm sure there's someone out there who
doesn't know you yet.

DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno

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Feb 15, 2016, 2:08:54 AM2/15/16
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On Sun, 14 Feb 2016 17:55:21 -0500, krw wrote:

> On Sun, 14 Feb 2016 18:18:48 +0000 (UTC), DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno
> <DL...@DecadentLinuxUser.org> wrote:

snip

>I'm sure there's someone out there who doesn't
> know you yet.

NONE of you know me, dumbfuck.

krw

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Feb 15, 2016, 9:43:58 AM2/15/16
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On Mon, 15 Feb 2016 07:08:47 +0000 (UTC), DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno
<DL...@DecadentLinuxUser.org> wrote:

>On Sun, 14 Feb 2016 17:55:21 -0500, krw wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 14 Feb 2016 18:18:48 +0000 (UTC), DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno
>> <DL...@DecadentLinuxUser.org> wrote:
>
>snip
>
>>I'm sure there's someone out there who doesn't
>> know you yet.
>
>NONE of you know me, dumbfuck.

Yes, we *know* that you're a dumbfuck, AlwaysWrong.

John Doe

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May 5, 2016, 2:51:24 AM5/5/16
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The tough guy wannabe troll flailing at a bot...

--
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> From: DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno <DLU1 DecadentLinuxUser.org>
> Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
> Subject: Re: UL note on PCB fab drawing
> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2016 13:28:08 +0000 (UTC)
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rickman

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May 5, 2016, 10:35:32 AM5/5/16
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On 5/5/2016 2:47 AM, John Doe wrote:
> The tough guy wannabe troll flailing at a bot...

What is wrong with you? You are dragging up any of his posts you can
find to rag on him. This one was months old. Give it a rest and try
posting something worthwhile.

--

Rick C
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