Good C-Media USB sound card?

[Joerg]

Folks,

The Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi HD was a major disappointment. It is
going back unless it decides to work properly very soon. Their customer
service is also sub-par.

So, looking for a better USB sound module. Miso mentioned C-Media but I
could only find chips on their site:

http://www.cmedia.com.tw/ProductsIndex.aspx?ClassifySerno=26

Who makes decent USB sound modules with these chips? Should be on a USB
cable, not a dongle. Must support Windows XP, have stereo line in and
line out. Preferably from an American company, or at least one that
lists phone numbers on their web site, actually cares about their
customers and has useful technical manuals.

I need this for EE stuff, not audio. So as plain vanilla as possible
would be good. Price can be up to $100.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[lang...@fonz.dk]

something like this? http://www.amazon.com/Behringer-UCA202-Audio-Interface/dp/B000KW2YEI/ref=pd_cp_pc_1


I think most dongles come with a short extender cable so it does have
to stick out
of the side of the pc


-Lasse

[Joerg]

Thanks, that looks like a good one.

>
> I think most dongles come with a short extender cable so it does have
> to stick out
> of the side of the pc
>

The ones I saw didn't. You can get USB extender cables for $5-10 but
those tend to be thick and unwieldy.

[Jim Thompson]

On Tue, 23 Apr 2013 13:39:42 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

I use a variety of right-angle cables from...

http://www.usbfirewire.com/

to neaten up the cable mess/dress on my desk.

I first bought a right-angled one to be able to use a dongle on my
ThinkPad at an airplane seat tray without it getting bumped and
damaged.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

[Jamie]

I buy those little cheap things from computer shows, the last one I got
cost something like 5 bucks but it works. It has stereo out for head
phones and mic input.

Jamie

[Vladimir Vassilevsky]

On 4/23/2013 3:04 PM, Joerg wrote:
> Folks,
>
> The Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi HD was a major disappointment. It is
> going back unless it decides to work properly very soon.

What is the problem?

> So, looking for a better USB sound module. Miso mentioned C-Media but I
> could only find chips on their site:

Been burned with C-Media hardware. Experienced sample rate
irregularities. Looks like sampling clock is done by divider with
variable ratio.

> Who makes decent USB sound modules with these chips? Should be on a USB
> cable, not a dongle. Must support Windows XP, have stereo line in and
> line out. Preferably from an American company, or at least one that
> lists phone numbers on their web site, actually cares about their
> customers and has useful technical manuals.
>
> I need this for EE stuff, not audio. So as plain vanilla as possible
> would be good. Price can be up to $100.

I've used SB Extigy for work for many years. Had to switch to SB THX HD
because Extigy is unsupported on W7. No problems with either one.


Vladimir Vassilevsky
DSP and Mixed Signal Designs
www.abvolt.com

[miso]

> The ones I saw didn't. You can get USB extender cables for $5-10 but
> those tend to be thick and unwieldy.
>

I got a few usb extenders from Monoprice. No issues. They seem to have a
tight grip on the usb device. I still have the bag handy. It says
PID:8604 USB(E)-AA-MF-01-W. I bought a dozen and just stock them since
they are relatively cheap.

The only reason I mention C-Media is they seem to have USB sound down.
The specs aren't great, but for something to take you from analog to
digital without spending hours tracking down usb isues, they are fine.
For a lot of what I use them for, I only need 8 bit "sound".

As an aside, a lot of these portable sound recorders also work as usb
sound cards:
> http://www.samsontech.com/zoom/products/handheld-audio-recorders/

One advantage to using these external recorders is you can run them
without a PC to record, then analyze the sound later via download. I
know that isn't your situation, but this does allow for testing if the
PC is coupling noise back into what you are measuring. That is, you
record with and without the PC in the loop. Getting to the point where
there is no low level PC noise added to a system isn't easy since
everything shares the same ground.

The Zoom recorders don't have GHz CPUs and such in them, so they do
record without those artifacts. The microphone amps are a bit noisy, but
the line level is fine.

[Michael A. Terrell]

Jim Thompson wrote:
>
> I use a variety of right-angle cables from...
>
> http://www.usbfirewire.com/
>
> to neaten up the cable mess/dress on my desk.
>
> I first bought a right-angled one to be able to use a dongle on my
> ThinkPad at an airplane seat tray without it getting bumped and
> damaged.

I buy USB Male A to USB Female A cables at Dollar Tree and have never
found a bad one. I've bought dozens there.

[miso]

You made my point. New OS, junk the card. Creative doesn't give a crap
about their customers. I used to buy their stuff back in the day, but
the company really went to shit.

I've already tossed my Creative cardbus soundcard so I don't know the
model, but it was flaky under win7. Playback would sound like bits of
sound were missing. Good riddance. It worked fine under win2kpro. It is
like they farm out the driver rewrites. It was working under linux,
though not in every program.

I use the C-media cards for sigint. No problems under linux. I have less
experience with them under windows. If there were sample rate errors, I
would see it in the BER.

I use the Diamond card for PCI. Again, I don't need dynamic range since
I'm dealing with a channel that has far worse SNR than the card,
probably by 30dB.

[Martin Riddle]

"Joerg" <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:ato7qu...@mid.individual.net...

What about these guys?
<http://www.usbgear.com/computer_cable_details.cfm?sku=USBG-SOUND-71&cats=136&catid=121%2C637%2C136>

They list what chipsets are used. not pricey either. Look thru the
website, there are other USB things.
Located in FL, phone number on website.

Cheers

[Vladimir Vassilevsky]

On 4/23/2013 10:06 PM, miso wrote:
> You made my point. New OS, junk the card. Creative doesn't give a crap
> about their customers. I used to buy their stuff back in the day, but
> the company really went to shit.
>
> I've already tossed my Creative cardbus soundcard so I don't know the
> model, but it was flaky under win7. Playback would sound like bits of
> sound were missing. Good riddance. It worked fine under win2kpro. It is
> like they farm out the driver rewrites. It was working under linux,
> though not in every program.

For that amount of hassle you could probably afford real data acqusition
board from NI with lifetime support.

> I use the C-media cards for sigint. No problems under linux. I have less
> experience with them under windows. If there were sample rate errors, I
> would see it in the BER.

USB C-media is cheap stuff designed for computer games.
The C-media sample rate jumps between two different values about two
times per sec. This happens regardless of selected sample rate; both in
transmit and receive path. Very detrimental for phase measurement.
Other problem with C-media is native sample rates vs emulated sample
rates. Performance in the emulated modes is pretty bad.
The C-media analog parameters are mediocre at best.
As far as the hardware, I never had to blame Creative.

> I use the Diamond card for PCI. Again, I don't need dynamic range since
> I'm dealing with a channel that has far worse SNR than the card,
> probably by 30dB.

VLV

[Joerg]

Vladimir Vassilevsky wrote:
> On 4/23/2013 3:04 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> Folks,
>>
>> The Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi HD was a major disappointment. It is
>> going back unless it decides to work properly very soon.
>
> What is the problem?
>

Numerous ones. It stopped putting out signals on the line outputs out of
the blue, at random. Then one the input both channels worked only with
the RIAA amp, without it no signal was received. And so on.

Aggravating factors were that the installed SW caused an increadible
bloat, the company web page support link did not accept my inquiry, they
give no phone numbers, the only email I found was from their ivetsor
guy. Who chose not to even answer.

Long story short I have already sent it back and won't buy a Creative
product again.

I have uninstalled their software, now I have to figure out how to
uninstall their driver.

>> So, looking for a better USB sound module. Miso mentioned C-Media but I
>> could only find chips on their site:
>
> Been burned with C-Media hardware. Experienced sample rate
> irregularities. Looks like sampling clock is done by divider with
> variable ratio.
>

Oh, that would be very bad in my case. Looks like I need to reseach this
whole sound card topic out a lot more.

>> Who makes decent USB sound modules with these chips? Should be on a USB
>> cable, not a dongle. Must support Windows XP, have stereo line in and
>> line out. Preferably from an American company, or at least one that
>> lists phone numbers on their web site, actually cares about their
>> customers and has useful technical manuals.
>>
>> I need this for EE stuff, not audio. So as plain vanilla as possible
>> would be good. Price can be up to $100.
>
> I've used SB Extigy for work for many years. Had to switch to SB THX HD
> because Extigy is unsupported on W7. No problems with either one.
>

I am dreading Windows 7, big time, for such reasons. Eventually I'll
have to buy a couple of simple netbook for this. My Samsung NC-10 with
XP works like a champ but with XP I can only buy used and then the
batteries are mostly shot.

[Joerg]

miso wrote:
>
>> The ones I saw didn't. You can get USB extender cables for $5-10 but
>> those tend to be thick and unwieldy.
>>
>
> I got a few usb extenders from Monoprice. No issues. They seem to have a
> tight grip on the usb device. I still have the bag handy. It says
> PID:8604 USB(E)-AA-MF-01-W. I bought a dozen and just stock them since
> they are relatively cheap.
>
> The only reason I mention C-Media is they seem to have USB sound down.
> The specs aren't great, but for something to take you from analog to
> digital without spending hours tracking down usb isues, they are fine.
> For a lot of what I use them for, I only need 8 bit "sound".
>

I really need all 16 bits. Plus I have to measure phase accurately, to
within 1/10 of a degree. So if they really do clock dither like
Vladimiar mentioned that would be bad.

> As an aside, a lot of these portable sound recorders also work as usb
> sound cards:
>> http://www.samsontech.com/zoom/products/handheld-audio-recorders/
>
> One advantage to using these external recorders is you can run them
> without a PC to record, then analyze the sound later via download. I
> know that isn't your situation, but this does allow for testing if the
> PC is coupling noise back into what you are measuring. That is, you
> record with and without the PC in the loop. Getting to the point where
> there is no low level PC noise added to a system isn't easy since
> everything shares the same ground.
>
> The Zoom recorders don't have GHz CPUs and such in them, so they do
> record without those artifacts. The microphone amps are a bit noisy, but
> the line level is fine.
>

I need it realtime, it's not recording sound but measuring resonant
structures via phase. And things should be too bulky.

[Joerg]

Thanks. Finally one company with real information on their site. Now I'd
have to find out whether the CM6206 chip in there does the clock
dithering that Vladimir mentioned. Because that would mess up my
application.

[lang...@fonz.dk]

On Apr 24, 4:17 pm, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Martin Riddle wrote:
> > "Joerg" <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message

> >news:ato7qu...@mid.individual.net...
> >> Folks,
>
> >> The Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi HD was a major disappointment. It is
> >> going back unless it decides to work properly very soon. Their
> >> customer
> >> service is also sub-par.
>
> >> So, looking for a better USB sound module. Miso mentioned C-Media but
> >> I
> >> could only find chips on their site:
>
> >>http://www.cmedia.com.tw/ProductsIndex.aspx?ClassifySerno=26
>
> >> Who makes decent USB sound modules with these chips? Should be on a
> >> USB
> >> cable, not a dongle. Must support Windows XP, have stereo line in and
> >> line out. Preferably from an American company, or at least one that
> >> lists phone numbers on their web site, actually cares about their
> >> customers and has useful technical manuals.
>
> >> I need this for EE stuff, not audio. So as plain vanilla as possible
> >> would be good. Price can be up to $100.
>
> >> --
> >> Regards, Joerg
>
> >>http://www.analogconsultants.com/
>
> > What about these guys?

> > <http://www.usbgear.com/computer_cable_details.cfm?sku=USBG-SOUND-71&c...>

>
> > They list what chipsets are used. not pricey either. Look thru the
> > website, there are other USB things.
> > Located in FL, phone number on website.
>
> Thanks. Finally one company with real information on their site. Now I'd
> have to find out whether the CM6206 chip in there does the clock
> dithering that Vladimir mentioned. Because that would mess up my
> application.
>
> --
> Regards, Joerg
>
> http://www.analogconsultants.com/

could try the demo board for this: http://www.ti.com/product/pcm2902

-Lasse

[Joerg]

Yeah, but I really need somthing in a box, plug and play.

[Joerg]

Some more research hints that the UCA202 that Lasse suggested does not
use a C-Media chip:

http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011_10_01_archive.html

Quote "The UCA202 uses the ubiquitous TI PCM2902 integrated USB DAC
chip. It’s an old design, but as you’ll see, it easily outperforms the
much newer C-Media chip in the similarly priced Turtle Beach Micro II
when using the line output. In this case, newer isn't better".

http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/pcm2902c.pdf

A bit old, only 16 bits and can't do 96ksamples/sec. However, sometimes
the old stuff is better than the new. So there is hope.

[mrob...@att.net]

Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> So, looking for a better USB sound module.

I use an application that listens to a radio scanner for packets and
does DSP to recover the data bytes; it's a software dem. My setup uses
the motherboard audio on my desktop PC, but the "troubleshooting"
section of the software manual says that the Griffin iMic is "known to
work well in data applications". The brochure is at
http://store.griffintechnology.com/imic ; that page says stereo line
in, XP and 7 compatibility.

Griffin's Q&A page at http://www.griffintechnology.com/support/imic says
it is 24-bit internally, but limited to 16 bit/48 KHz with the default
drivers; "third party USB ASIO drivers" are supposed to give you the
full 24 bits. They don't seem to tell you where you can obtain these
drivers.

I tried to find out what chip(s) it uses internally. There is a rather
amusing answer at
http://www.griffintechnology.com/support/article/what-are-exact-technical-specifications-imic-mac-and-pc?backref=node%2F626&backref_title=iMic
that basically says the only specs they guarantee are 16 bit, 48 kHz,
$40.

Again, I don't use an iMic myself; I am just passing along what I read.

Griffin has their own store but they are out of stock. Some other
online stores (including B&H and Sweetwater) say they have it; it seems
to go for about $40. (It should be $20, but a white housing on hardware
means it's for Mac, which doubles the price.)

Standard disclaimers apply; I don't get money or other consideration
from any companies mentioned.

Matt Roberds

[Joerg]

mrob...@att.net wrote:
> Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> So, looking for a better USB sound module.
>
> I use an application that listens to a radio scanner for packets and
> does DSP to recover the data bytes; it's a software dem. My setup uses
> the motherboard audio on my desktop PC, but the "troubleshooting"
> section of the software manual says that the Griffin iMic is "known to
> work well in data applications". The brochure is at
> http://store.griffintechnology.com/imic ; that page says stereo line
> in, XP and 7 compatibility.
>
> Griffin's Q&A page at http://www.griffintechnology.com/support/imic says
> it is 24-bit internally, but limited to 16 bit/48 KHz with the default
> drivers; "third party USB ASIO drivers" are supposed to give you the
> full 24 bits. They don't seem to tell you where you can obtain these
> drivers.
>
> I tried to find out what chip(s) it uses internally. There is a rather
> amusing answer at
> http://www.griffintechnology.com/support/article/what-are-exact-technical-specifications-imic-mac-and-pc?backref=node%2F626&backref_title=iMic
> that basically says the only specs they guarantee are 16 bit, 48 kHz,
> $40.
>

Well, I don't like such flip answers on the part of manufacturers. I
won't buy unless there's full specs and informationn what chip is in there.

> Again, I don't use an iMic myself; I am just passing along what I read.
>
> Griffin has their own store but they are out of stock. Some other
> online stores (including B&H and Sweetwater) say they have it; it seems
> to go for about $40. (It should be $20, but a white housing on hardware
> means it's for Mac, which doubles the price.)
>
> Standard disclaimers apply; I don't get money or other consideration
> from any companies mentioned.
>

Thanks, but I think I'll go with Lasse's suggestions because it has good
reviews and info about the innards:

http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/02/behringer-uca202-review.html

[George Herold]

On Apr 23, 8:41 pm, miso <m...@sushi.com> wrote:
> > The ones I saw didn't. You can get USB extender cables for $5-10 but
> > those tend to be thick and unwieldy.
>
> I got a few usb extenders from Monoprice. No issues. They seem to have a
> tight grip on the usb device. I still have the bag handy. It says
> PID:8604 USB(E)-AA-MF-01-W. I bought a dozen and just stock them since
> they are relatively cheap.
>
> The only reason I mention C-Media is they seem to have USB sound down.
> The specs aren't great, but for something to take you from analog to
> digital without spending hours tracking down usb isues, they are fine.
> For a lot of what I use them for, I only need 8 bit "sound".
>
> As an aside, a lot of these portable sound recorders also work as usb
> sound cards:
>
> >http://www.samsontech.com/zoom/products/handheld-audio-recorders/

Nice, do you know how much?
I wanted to record shot noise on our tarpaulin in the rain,
waterfalls, and culvert whistlers (and then do the fft's). It's not a
very big itch though.

George H.

[DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno]

On Wed, 24 Apr 2013 07:06:05 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

>I have uninstalled their software, now I have to figure out how to
>uninstall their driver.

Which is why performing a system state save is a good idea before
unknown hdw installations.

[DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno]

On Wed, 24 Apr 2013 07:06:05 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

>>

>> I've used SB Extigy for work for many years. Had to switch to SB THX HD
>> because Extigy is unsupported on W7. No problems with either one.
>>
>
>I am dreading Windows 7, big time, for such reasons. Eventually I'll
>have to buy a couple of simple netbook for this. My Samsung NC-10 with
>XP works like a champ but with XP I can only buy used and then the
>batteries are mostly shot.
>
>--
>Regards, Joerg
>
>http://www.analogconsultants.com/

There is no such thing as "extigy"

My SB Audigy card is working on my W7 box, just fine.

[Vladimir Vassilevsky]

On 4/24/2013 8:37 PM, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno wrote:

> There is no such thing as "extigy"

Always Wrong!
Always Wrong!
Always Wrong!


http://www.amazon.com/Creative-Labs-Sound-Blaster-Extigy/dp/B000062TTF

VLV

[DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno]

On Wed, 24 Apr 2013 21:26:26 -0500, Vladimir Vassilevsky
<nos...@nowhere.com> wrote:

>On 4/24/2013 8:37 PM, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno wrote:
>
>> There is no such thing as "extigy"
>
>Always Wrong!

I owned one, and still, for some reason, I thought that he had spelled
it wrong.

BTW, Vlad, old boy... FUCK YOU for jumping on the Larkin's Retard Crew
bandwagon.

And then you stuttered it three times, so maybe you are going senile as
well as the bandwagon stupidity.

[miso]

Perhaps I didn't make this clear, but the recorders work by themselves
OR as a USB sound card. My point was I could record without a PC and
with a PC to determine if connecting the PC caused artifacts. The noise
from a PC can set into your circuitry.

These oversampled converters often share a lot of DSP between channels
to reduce the cost, but if designed property they will act as if the
sampling is simultaneous, with of course some significant delay.

[miso]

Well obviously you need to do a search to get a price. The amplifiers
for the H2 and H2N are very quite for the built in microphones. They
suck on the external microphone inputs. I don't have the H4 for comparison.

You really want the H2N over the plain H2 if you are using the line
input. The H2 feeds the line input directly to the ADC, i.e. no level
control. The H2N allows the line input to be attenuated.

I've used them for nature sounds, outdoor concerts, etc. My expectations
are all that high for those purposes. I've also used them to record
scanners. The VOX feature supposedly works well now, but with the cost
of flash so cheap, I just record everything and use Audacity to "trim
silence".

The cases are plastic and thus not shielded all that well. I have had
radar get picked up by the internal microphone amps.

I've stashed the recorders away from people and let them catch nature
sounds. Sometimes entertaining if a bee starts buzzing around it. You
can pick up bird calls.

You probably want to get a dead cat for it if you don't want wind noise.
For example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnsWcjnz8WU

[miso]

I thought you wanted an ADC, not a DAC.

[miso]

> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829102185


That is the beast I used to have. Some of the reviews complain about the
drivers. Well duh.... . I will admit it was fine under linux until it broke.

[miso]

Works fine for the sigint. I use to do demodulate digital signals off of
radios. The specs aren't great, but the cost sure is, and the metal
cases can take some abuse. The A/D on C-media cards is about 90db SNR. I
am dealing with signals with 40db.

NI data? The freaking SB card was only 70 bucks. I don't see the
comparison at all.

I need lots of channels. They don't have to be great, but they need to
be plentiful.

[George Herold]

OK I went looking for a price but found nothing right away.
I bought a "natures window" outdoor mic with amp/speaker for my wife
several years ago.
She keeps it on continuously during the spring and fall.
http://www.tmbstudios.com/proddetail.asp?prod=NW3
(We must have version 1.)
I made a wind shield from a bit of gauze and 1/2 of a plastic pop
bottle.

George H.

[Joerg]

miso wrote:
> I thought you wanted an ADC, not a DAC.

I need both. The output can be fairly crude and I only need one channel.
The ADC needs to be superb and both channels must remain in perfect
lockstep. Not clock dither, all squeaky clean. Because I'll do phase
measurements between the two. 96k would be nice but 48k is ok.

[dave]

On 04/25/2013 07:30 AM, Joerg wrote:
> miso wrote:
>> I thought you wanted an ADC, not a DAC.
>
>
> I need both. The output can be fairly crude and I only need one channel.
> The ADC needs to be superb and both channels must remain in perfect
> lockstep. Not clock dither, all squeaky clean. Because I'll do phase
> measurements between the two. 96k would be nice but 48k is ok.
>

http://www.via.com.tw/en/products/audio/codecs/hd-codecs.jsp

[Joerg]

But I could not find any datasheet:

http://www.via.com.tw/en/products/audio/codecs/vt2021/

This time I made sure that I have information which chip is in the sound
module and also that I have its datasheet in hand before ordering. That
allowed me to ascertain the sanity of the concept at least to some
extent. It's the PCM2902, old but apparently quite robust. So I have
ordered the Behringer UCA202 that Lasse suggested. Should be here next week.

[dave]

OK. The Via can use an external clock. And M-Audio DAW hardware is all
Via Envy24, and (to me) it is totally transparent.